Fox amends history to find a Thanksgiving lesson about socialism
November 24, 2010 10:37 pm ET by Jocelyn Fong
Fox's mustachioed libertarian John Stossel tells us today that the "Lost Lesson of Thanksgiving" is that communalism almost killed the pilgrims at Plymouth. He wrote on FoxNews.com that the pilgrims "organized their farm economy along communal lines ... That's why they nearly all starved." Once they "moved from socialism to private farming," they had tons of food and everything was grand. "Because of the change, the first Thanksgiving could be held in November 1623," he says.
Stossel also appeared on Fox News' America Live to share his lesson with host Megyn Kelly. The appearance is currently being promoted on the top of Fox Nation.
So is he right? The New York Times' Kate Zernike noted earlier this week that Stossel's tale has been "related by libertarians and conservatives for years." She talked to a historian who makes clear that the history isn't as simple as Stossel would have us believe. From Zernike's article:
Historians say that the settlers in Plymouth, and their supporters in England, did indeed agree to hold their property in common -- William Bradford, the governor, referred to it in his writings as the "common course." But the plan was in the interest of realizing a profit sooner, and was only intended for the short term; historians say the Pilgrims were more like shareholders in an early corporation than subjects of socialism.
"It was directed ultimately to private profit," said Richard Pickering, a historian of early America and the deputy director of Plimoth Plantation, a museum devoted to keeping the Pilgrims' story alive.
The arrangement did not produce famine. If it had, Bradford would not have declared the three days of sport and feasting in 1621 that became known as the first Thanksgiving. "The celebration would never have happened if the harvest was going to be less than enough to get them by," Mr. Pickering said. "They would have saved it and rationed it to get by."
Also from the Times article:
Bradford did get rid of the common course -- but it was in 1623, after the first Thanksgiving, and not because the system wasn't working. The Pilgrims just didn't like it. In the accounts of colonists, Mr. Pickering said, "there was griping and groaning."
"Bachelors didn't want to feed the wives of married men, and women don't want to do the laundry of the bachelors," he said.
The real reason agriculture became more profitable over the years, Mr. Pickering said, is that the Pilgrims were getting better at farming crops like corn that had been unknown to them in England.
Really? If that's not socialism, it is at least a very generous form of welfare. Would Stossel advocate giving every American today a parcel of land? That'd be cool. I'd like mine in Malibu.
2. Pointing out the flaws in somebody's logic isn't simply "disagreeing" with them, it's showing that they're either dishonest or confused.
Do you have the lab results certifying her as far-left and quantifying her level of loony-ness?
And even if she is certifiably a far left loon, how do you explain the quotes from Richard Pickering of the Plimoth plantation? Is he a loon too?\
Maybe this is some sort of left wing conspiracy... A war against thanksgiving....
Why do conservatives have to rewrite history? Why are they so afraid to acknowledge that in the good old days, there was a lot of non-conservative arrangements, behaviors and successes?
*If you want to talk about people being "independent-minded", you can start by not ripping off exact phrasing from Bill O'Reilly.
Macaco is now 0 for 2 in this thread. Keeping his perfect record going, he's batting .000 yet again.
But; in Macaca's world view he is actually 2 for 2 and batting 1.000.
Macaco is now 0 for 2 in this thread. Keeping his perfect record going, he's batting .000 yet again.
You're the one who thinks resorting to name calling is a sure sign of desperation and that the name caller has no substantial argument to offer, yes?
How can you make that evaluation when you're not even familiar enough with him to know how to spell his name?
I always love a good confession.
When I mentioned the fairy tale nature of the spin, DBoned demanded that I explain where I disagreed with Bradford.
This one is tailor-made for the wingnut sheepherders, and they'll continue to drag it out every Turkey Day. Their target audience has a rough enough time with reading comprehension of contemporary English that they know the colonial-era words of Bradford give them almost unlimited room for re-interpretation.
The masters can simply tell the zombies what Bradford meant, and the zombies will dutifully impose that meaning into the original. Any debunking of the propaganda will translate as questioning the historical writing.
This makes two times that Koko has shown up to tell everybody that he's bought this hook,line and sinker, but will frame the truth as a "meme" or "agenda". Good luck trying to get through to him, he's invested.
Slickens, the only point you have is on the top of your head.
It would really help your case if you fleshed out these phantoms a little bit. Otherwise it just looks like you're tossing around buzzwords in place of any real thoughts.
And Fox and your side's loons pretend that documents say things they dont, that martyrdom is around the corner despite having 4+ hours of air a day, that the forces of obama are coming, and have managed to utterly hide their tracks in every way to the point of magic.
Your side is just so, well, immature. Know what I love? When you all shout "under god" louder than everything else during the pledge of allegience, just like good little sheep. You have *no idea* how insane you look to us when you do this stuff. My four year old nephew has better deduction and logical skills than any of your side's eldest members. It only took him three years to be able to fully recognize himself as a whole, conscious being who was responsible for its actions, and distinguished himself internally from all other things.
I used to think ALL humans followed this path. But any time I see these dozens of frighteningly disconnected rightwing comments its like..well..You never grew out of that phase. And thats really unfortunate.
Happy Thanksgiving from me and my entire sideshow freak clan to yours. I'll be going over to freeload some Turkey later, and I'll bow my head and thank Jeebus, the Flying Spaghetti MOnster and St. Brigid that the Macaco/ D.Boned Chicken/ Fox Zombies only make up a tiny percentage of our great nation.
...and everything was grand.
That could be the last few words of any wingnut utopian dream.
They banned abortion...and everything was grand.
They declared war on Iran...and everything was grand.
They declared war on North Korea...and everything was grand.
They allowed prayer in schools...and everything was grand.
They all became Christians...and everything was grand.
They cut taxes to zero...and everything was grand.
And then they woke up and went out looking for a job so their mom wouldn't throw them out.
They fled from England to escape a nation with one established state religion.
The Pilgrim "workers" pooled their money and collectively bargained to buy their first ship (the Speedwell).
The land in Plymouth was actually owned by the state (they were given a land grant to settle there, but the Crown could reclaim the land if certain conditions were not met).
During the trip across the Atlantic, they were saved by working class passengers who happened to have home-building equipment with them. These workers used their construction skills and equipment to save the main beam.
Before landing, they signed the "Mayflower Compact" where the settlers agreed to pool their work together as a collective unit. Without this, the settlers may have simply dispersed and not formed a stable colony capable of any sizeable trade.
See how easy it is to spin history to fit your ideology?
After seeing the trolls here still falling for it, I searched around the interwebs to see how popular it was this year, and it seems to be working better than ever. I think it was Freerepublic that had the childishly simple and dopey " Capitalism Saves the Day!" or " Capitalism To The Rescue!!".
The Plymough Colony wasn't the UNited States, it wasn't a nation. It was more of a church group that turned into a village.
I'm pretty sure there's never been an advanced nation in history that has been 100% pure free market or unadulterated socialism/communism. That's what's wrong with the whole theme of this propaganda, even before getting into all the details that are easily shown to being subjected to abuse by the right wing puppet masters.
We don't expect the kids or grandma to earn their keep. They get taken care of - each according to their need.
The property is communally owned though often not democratically. Maybe in that sense the family is more like communism, with the mother and father being like a politburo - A dictatorship of the Adulterate.
I am very surprised that conservatives often support family values. Instead, to be consistent they should try to privatize family production and decision making and allow market forces to determine outcomes. Especially children in a family seem to be freeloaders that get something for nothing. By commodifying their lives within a free unregulated market, perhaps children could be more productive and efficient... Family values are really just a sneaky way to bring socialism into our world. I am sure Obama and Soros are involved...
Joseph McCarthy would be proud.
Footnote -- watch for the Texas State Board of Education to mandate "pilgrims and socialism" to be a central theme of the U.S. History curriculum in their public school system.
I am so disillusioned. *sob*