Media Already Botching Reports On Hacked Climate Emails
November 22, 2011 4:57 pm ET by Jocelyn Fong
Earlier today I asked whether American news outlets would do their due diligence in evaluating the content of the newly-released batch of "Climategate" emails hacked from the University of East Anglia two years ago. It didn't take long for our esteemed print outlets to disappoint.
Writing on the Washington Post's website, Juliet Eilperin quotes an email exchange that she said was about "whether the IPCC has accurately depicted the temperature rise in the lower atmosphere":
In one round of e-mails, researchers discuss whether the IPCC has accurately depicted the temperature rise in the lower atmosphere. An official from the U.K. Met Office, a scientific organization which analyzes the climate, writes to the Climate Research Unit's former director Phil Jones at one point, "Observations do not show rising temperatures throughout the tropical troposphere unless you accept one single study and approach and discount a wealth of others. This is just downright dangerous. We need to communicate the uncertainty and be honest. Phil, hopefully we can find time to discuss these further if necessary [...]"
Later, the official adds, "I also think the science is being manipulated to put a political spin on it which for all our sakes might not be too clever in the long run."
Astoundingly, Eilperin does not tell readers that these email exchanges took place in February 2005 and were about the first draft of a chapter of the IPCC report released two years later. The emails depict the authors of the chapter hashing out what should be included -- exactly what you would expect this process to look like.
After providing comments on the draft, then-Met Office official Peter Thorne wrote: "I'm pretty sure we can reconcile these things relatively simply. However, I certainly would be unhappy to be associated with it if the current text remains through final draft - I'm absolutely positive it won't."
So were his concerns addressed in the final draft? If only we had reporters who asked these questions. For his part, The Hill's Ben Geman simply repeats what Eilperin reported, while admitting that he hasn't even "been able to view the newly released emails."
In the email exchange, Thorne provides comments "on the upper-air portion" of the chapter. He wrote: "There is little effective communication in the main text of the uncertainty that is inherent in these measures," later adding, "we need to communicate the uncertainty and be honest."
And this is from the final version of the chapter, which cites Thorne's own research at least 5 times:
Within the community that constructs and actively analyses satellite- and radiosonde-based temperature records there is agreement that the uncertainties about long-term change are substantial. Changes in instrumentation and protocols pervade both sonde and satellite records, obfuscating the modest long-term trends. Historically there is no reference network to anchor the record and establish the uncertainties arising from these changes - many of which are both barely documented and poorly understood. Therefore, investigators have to make seemingly reasonable choices of how to handle these sometimes known but often unknown influences. It is difficult to make quantitatively defensible judgments as to which, if any, of the multiple, independently derived estimates is closer to the true climate evolution. This reflects almost entirely upon the inadequacies of the historical observing network and points to the need for future network design that provides the reference sonde-based ground truth.
Raphael Satter of the Associated Press has also has a premature report, which has been published on the websites of countless news outlets, asserting that the emails "appeared to show climate scientists talking in conspiratorial tones about ways to promote their agenda." What agenda is that? The article doesn't say. Satter admits that the context of the emails "couldn't be determined" because the "Associated Press has not yet been able to secure a copy" of the documents.
UPDATE 11/23: The Washington Post has changed its blog to note that the email exchange was in 2005 and dealt with an "early draft" of an IPCC chapter. That change is also reflected in the Eilperin's page 2 story today.

















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Furthermore, the model output is very much determined by the time series of forcing that is selected, and the model sensitivity which essentially scales the range. Mike only likes these because they seem to match his idea of what went on in the last millennium, whereas he would savage them if they did not. Also--& I'm sure you agree--the Mann/Jones GRL paper was truly pathetic and should never have been published. I don't want to be associated with that 2000 year "reconstruction".
I've been told that IPCC is above national FOI Acts. One way to cover yourself and all those working in AR5 would be to delete all emails at the end of the process.
Somehow we have to leave them thinking OK, climate change is extremely complicated, BUT I accept the dominant view that people are affecting it, and that impacts produces risk that needs careful and urgent attention.
I have been talking w/ folks in the states about finding an investigative journalist to investigate and expose McIntyre, and his thusfar unexplored connections with fossil fuel interests. Perhaps the same needs to be done w/ this Keenan guy.
I can't overstate the HUGE amount of political interest in the project as a message that the Government can give on climate change to help them tell their story. They want the story to be a very strong one and don't want to be made to look foolish.
Similarly IPCC in their discussion on solar RF since the Maunder Minimum are very dependent on the paper by Wang et al (which I have been unable to access) in the decision to reduce the solar RF significantly despite the many papers to the contrary in the ISSI workshop. All this leaves the IPCC almost entirely dependent on CO2 for the explanation of current global temperatures as in Fig 2.23. since methane CFCs and aerosols are not increasing.
Clearly, some tuning or very good luck involved. I doubt the modeling world will be able to get away with this much longer.
The important thing is to make sure they're loosing the PR battle. That's what the site is about.
Although I agree that GHGs are important in the 19th/20th century (especially since the 1970s), if the weighting of solar forcing was stronger in the models, surely this would diminish the significance of GHGs.
It seems to me that by weighting the solar irradiance more strongly in the models, then much of the 19th to mid 20th century warming can be explained from the sun alone.
Cheers! Happy Thanksgiving again! Looks like I have a ton of good reading material to get through this weekend. Enjoy yours as well!
You dump this on here like a smoking gun, when it's patently obvious you have no idea what any of this means, nor its implications or influences on current climate change paradigms, nor the slightest clue that one email does not make or break a scientific theory anymore than one paper.
Take the last line:
Translation: if we change the models to ASSUME solar irradiance plays a larger role, then much of the current warming can be explained from the sun alone. That does not mean that making such an adjustment is warranted by the data. Just that if we tweak a model, it changes the conclusion...which is true of EVERY MODEL IN EXISTENCE.
Welcome to wonderful world of science, rookie, where scientists discuss ideas in an open fashion sans conspiracies.
Randy
Of course it is always such a treat when he links us to that meticulously archived collection of his own pseudo-scientific diatribes scattered about (or as he might argue--published at) various internet comment threads.
However...
Solid all right, but not in the way you intend. Here's another challenge for you Becky. Perhaps you can start putting together Phil Jones' response in the next House of Commons Science and Technology Committee report on "The Reviews into the University of East Anglia's Climatic Research Unit's E-mails" when they ask him about this new quote from the latest batch of emails:
With the earlier FOI requests re David Holland, I wasted a part of a day deleting numerous emails and exchanges with almost all the skeptics. So I have virtually nothing. I even deleted the email that I inadvertently sent. There might be some bits of pieces of paper, but I'm not wasting my time going through these.
But here's Jones' statement in the first report:
I have previously confirmed that I have never knowingly deleted an email that was the subject of an active Freedom of Information request and neither have I deleted data.
Glee indeed. I'd love to hear your defense. I'm guessing it will be white as well. Got enough rope yet?
Till then, this is all a tempest in a Tea Bagger pot.
Randy
You are posing two distinctly separate lines of inquiry here. 1) concerns the accused scientists professional conduct, and 2) the scientific validity of their data and conclusions.
On the first, you are simply dismissing no fewer than nine exculpatory international investigations as mere "whitewashes" or criminal conspiracies of subterfuge in the broad daylight of a sentient global scientific community.
This is the stuff of a wild-eyed conspiracy theory that, according to psychological and sociological studies of a prototypical Conspiracy Theory phenomenon, is virtual immune to any and all opposing arguments from any quarter. You are obviously trapped in such a vortex of specific ignorance that you choose to compress your world view into a compartmentalized belief system authored by the untested opinions and hypotheses of a virtual handful of other authoritarian egos.
On the second point, I am providing two examples that relegate "assessment of the validity of science" back to the peer review process and the science community where you and I know it belongs in the first place:
According to the official Report of the International Panel set up by the University of East Anglia to examine the research of the Climatic Research Unit.and allegations against Dr. Phil Jones:
And from the official Final Investigation Report Involving Dr. Michael E, Mann
The Pennsylvania State University June 4, 2010
The most comprehensive inquiry was the Independent Climate Change Email Review led by Sir Muir Russell, who said at its conclusion
Muir bespeaks the integrity and sensitivity to their public trust that you would deny him and every professional in the academic, scientific, and public service communities. To YOU they are all just tools of the greatest coordinated global conspiracy in human history.
And you wonder why we laugh at you?
Go ahead and think that Climategate 2.0 will be a repeat of the first salvo of emails in 2009. It is your mission, not mine.
BTW, since you are fascinated with interpretations of out-of-context quotes; have a go with this one from YOUR community in 1998:
"Unless "climate change" becomes a non-issue, meaning that the Kyoto proposal is defeated and there are no further initiatives to thwart the threat of climate change, there may be no moment when we can declare victory for our efforts. It will be necessary to establish measurements for the science effort to track progress toward achieving the goal and strategic success."
So let's take your defense of the first line of inquiry, the accused scientists' professional conduct. I notice you sidestep the issue with appeals to authority. Now why is that? Care to speak to the contents of the new Jones email? Or is your defense to simply quote from the whitewashes? "Their rigour and honesty as scientists" is indeed in doubt, or do you deny that this alleged FOI obstruction is abhorrent? You can go down conspiracy alley all you want, but I prefer to focus on the tangible. Thanks though for the charade. It does help me to prove my point.
As for the second line of inquiry, you may not have realized it but you prove my point, even with a direct quote:
The Panel was not concerned with the question of whether the conclusions of the published research were correct.
Darn straight! None of the inquiries did. Again I ask, why is that? Remember, I asked "could you please direct me to where any of the inquiries actually assessed the validity of the science?" You could not. The A in AGW is not settled. Nowhere close.
Since you claim that there are "all sorts of lines of evidence for global warming" (I assume you mean of the anthropogenic sort) then you should have no problem validating the theory for us. Causation, not correlation. And you know, at least I hope, that the feedback issue is also nowhere near settled, so where exactly does "robust" and "unequivocal" even enter the equation? In the minds of misguided activists and propagandists is where.
Rather than "all sorts" of evidence in support, there is, were you to assess the science from an unbiased perspective, far more evidence that natural variability is the main driver of temperature. As for feedback, despite Trenberth protests, the sign looks to be negative.
So where oh where, aside from their "robust" models, have activist scientists shown us that large CO2 fingerprint? Certainly not in the empirical data. And since the heating effect of CO2 is logarithmic, without the "runaway" positive feedback models predict there is nothing.
The manufactured consensus has gotten us nowhere because enough people realize that the emperor has no clothes. Once you accept this naked reality and shun post-normal pseudo-science, we can move forward. You can claim that Climategates 1 and 2 are "fake scandals" but you would again be wrong. The scandal resides squarely at the feet of those who tried to eliminate dissent and minimize admissions of uncertainty.
I do find it funny that you also go the "out-of-context" route. I think it is pretty telling that in my one post where I expand upon my initial excerpt and offer the entire quote you hadn't a word to say. It's in context, no? So why the crickets? As for your quote, I am well aware of its source. You should read it again. You'd learn a thing or two because in many of their statements they are spot on. Here are a few you'll like:
As the climate change debate has evolved, those who oppose action have argued mainly that signing such a treaty will place the U.S. at a competitive disadvantage with most other nations, and will be extremely expensive to implement. Much of the cost will be borne by American consumers who will pay higher prices for most energy and transportation.
Check. I think the term is "skyrocket."
The advocates of global warming have been successful on the basis of skillfully misrepresenting the science and the extent of agreement on the science, while industry and its partners ceded the science and fought on the economic issues. Yet if we can show that science does not support the Kyoto treaty - which most true climate scientists believe to be the case - this puts the United States in a stronger moral position and frees its negotiators from the need to make concessions as a defense against perceived selfish economic concerns.
Check...please.
Some constructive criticism: this gives the impression that he is not really interested in the answers, because very few people would be able to hold a worthwhile discussion on so many topics simultaneously. I would advise in future that he stick to a small number of topics at any one time so that he can have the in-depth discussion that obnoxiously demands.
However, he obviously wants no part of that!
If the shoe fits...
Because the concern of the stolen emails was one of corruption. They were not addressing the science but the ethics of the scientists involved in those emails. You seem to go around with the belief that the whole of climate science is based on their research.
We were told very clearly both by press releases and by Acton when he came [before the committee] that this was going to be an investigation into the science.
Cheers!
But I find it instructive that he missed the contextual irony of my citation from it.
This was a detailed memo describing a well-funded campaign disingenuously claiming that its mission was to interject some balance into the Climate debate by raising the public profile of the "uncertainties" of the climate science.
But the memo specifically described "victory" as the point at which climate change becomes a "non-issue" and when all "further initiatives to thwart the threat of climate change" have ceased.
Their benchmark for success would not be when reason and policy reflect any degree of reality, but when the entire concept of climate change is dead and buried!
As for you Beck, I didn't miss a thing. The "contextual irony" you are apparently missing is that the quotes I added are absolutely correct in their content. Hence, AGW becoming a "non-issue" would indeed be a victory.
This is the problem with living in the age of post Limbaugh/Fox conservative media gotcha journalism.
"galileonardo" is only interested in finding an example of words in the right or wrong order so he can call a gotcha.
Certainly he has no interest in looking at published findings, data, evaluation methods, correlating data from others, or even looking at the particular journal entry he's become suddenly excited about in the greater context of the study.
When trying to convince uninformed and incurious people, this gotcha method has proven dangerously effective. However, it does virtually nothing to prove or disprove scientific findings which are based on data collection and experimentation, and not parsing through cherry picked statements to create the illusion of nefarious intent.
All scientists express their reservations, excitement, and general thoughts on projects they are a part of. They aren't partisan agents like so much of the media has become, and so "galileonardo's" attempt at a gotcha falls flat.
Of course global warming is real, and has been for 11,000 years. Otherwise, there would still be a two-mile high wall of ice where the Ohio River is now. What's unproven is humans having anything to do with it.
Just look at this recent mastodon story and you'll see that "scientifically proven peer-reviewed facts" even though long-lived, can be disproven by one person:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2016652520_mastodon31m.html
Edwin Hubble did the same thing less than 100 years ago, and was also roundly ridiculed by his peers. I don't see any of their names on the greatest telescope ever built.
And there is an agenda. Many governments, including the U.S., have concluded that climate change is man-made. Where do you think these "climate scientists" get their grants (hint: follow the money)?
Today there's talk about Einstein's take on the speed of light not being the absolute limit. But they sure aren't using words like "settled".
Keep the studies going, but don't call interim results "facts". Science never ends, and it's never "settled". Every scientist should be a skeptic without fear of ridicule, and you members of the MMfA choir should be as well.
The spewed talking point you were programmed with by the deniers who are NOT doing the science but running a PR campaign. Why is it the right was willing to go to war in Iraq based on a small possibility that they had WMD but an overwhelming scientific consensus isnt enough to take action on Global Climate Change? There are about a thousand peer reviewed studies documenting the human driven warming trend. We cannot SETTLE the gravity question either since we cannot find the exchange particle. Feel free to jump off a very high building because it isnt settled science
Or have you forgotten Solyndra already?
HeeNow, you're out of you're element.
More talking points. Stupid ones at that. Solyndria was a good bet. They lost out when China flooded the market with cheap solar panels but they had better technology and a good business plan. Every investment doesnt pan out but the US EXPORTED close to 2 billion in green tech last year. That is exactly what we should be doing. It is a shame you are so stupid and so brainwashed.
Ignoring a coming disaster that more than 95% of the scientist in that field agree is coming is a LOT more like jumping off a high building than taking some action based on the best available scientific consensus. Keep being brainwashed. Keep ignoring the science and buying the PR campaign expressly meant to fool gullible useful idiots like you.
Hey, speaking of PR that gives me a great opportunity to reiterate and expand upon one of the quotes from my initial post (I was hoping you guys would dig a bit but I shoulda known better). It's from Schticky Mike to Eraser Phil:
I've personally stopped responding to these, they're going to get a few of these op-ed pieces out here and there, but the important thing is to make sure they're loosing the PR battle. That's what the site is about. By the way, Gavin did come up w/ the name!
Yep, they're talking about PRC, sorry RC. Who is "loosing" the PR battle anyway?
There are about a thousand peer reviewed studies documenting the human driven warming trend.
Maybe you can read some of these. 900 plus. Should last you a while. Cheers!
That is the problem with ignorant people like YOU. To you it is a PR campaign issue instead of a SCIENCE issue. You are pathetic
Aside from the fact that the money in science is dwarfed by the rewards from the coal and oil industries waiting for Denier back-up, they never really get around to motive.
Aside from that phantom "Government Control", who is behind this science conspiracy, waiting to cash in ?
If all they can come up with is the wingnut default, "Government Control", what are the specifics? Who benefits, how and when do they benefit ?
The Denial Cult script wouldn't make a second rate TV cop show.
Also your little list does not include scientists (with the exception of chemists).
My colleague is a PhD biomedical engineer (I'm a BSEE) working at the cellular level, not for himself, but for the UNIVERSITY! He spends more than half his time not teaching, not researching, but filling out grant requests. Who do these requests go to? Those wanting his outcomes to be in their interest, and 90% of the time, it's the government. He couldn't care less about their goals. He wants the UNIVERSITY TO RECEIVE THE MONEY SO HE CAN KEEP HIS JOB.
Obama campaigned on the climate change subject, even saying energy costs would necessarily skyrocket. Who are the "scientists" trying to dupe when they say they have no financial interest?
Their "job" is their financial interest. They are ants in a colony run by a sovereign whose mind isn't very big, but it is made up.
The grant money is used to fund the overhead costs for research. The only way you can convince people to give you grants is to show them that what you are researching is worth their money. The money your friend is asking for is not going to his pocket.
The scientists are trying to "dupe" no one. Tell me, what direct benefit do they get on pushing something that is not real (according to you). They could just easily say "There is no human involvement in climate change" and move on to something different, yet they don't. Government and private interests fund any research as long as they can get benefit from it.
In the case of Mann, he has a super-size head/ego so I suppose he is an example of a pretty rare specimen since he is essentially in a league of his own.
The people who repeat it don't seem to realize that there really is no money in working for government.
To which I reply with a link to an article with the lead:
Federal employees earn higher average salaries than private-sector workers in more than eight out of 10 occupations, a USA TODAY analysis of federal data finds.
And that doesn't even speak to the benefits discrepancy. And your response? C'mon Jo. Get with the times. That meme is dead and buried. And your finale is quite funny. Err umm your little list, yeah, just chemists. As though the 36% difference for chemists wouldn't likely apply even remotely to say a physicist? The chart says "sampling" Jo. And did you catch the benefits line:
These salary figures do not include the value of health, pension and other benefits, which averaged $40,785 per federal employee in 2008 vs. $9,882 per private worker, according to the Bureau of Economic Analysis.
Yeah, no money. Sorry Jo. Our money. Next time you run into Hansen ask him if you can weigh his wallet.
No he isnt. YOU are just a brainwashed moron
Oh Anti, you and your conspiracies. How many times do I have to tell you a conspiracy implies secrecy? These dolts are proud of their control-freak agenda. Haven't you learned anything? Don't you remember Horsman? UNFCCC? Emissions Scenarios? Ida thunk sumpin woulda sunk in by now. Cheers!
Does that get really frustrating, not having others handicap you by accepting your misunderstanding of words?
I stopped clicking on your links a long time ago, as I've told you, after wasting time on several that did nothing to support your arguments, but in the spirit of the holidays, I'll check out what you're packing here.
Horsman - goes to a Google sign-in page
UNFCC- goes to an MMFA thread from February '10, specifically you accusing people of imagining shadow governments at the same time you're pizzing your pants about some future non-shadow government ( sorry, not going to the additional pile of links you've dumped in that post, you're not really a reliable source)
Emissions scenarios - to a pdf that you can't seem to specify what you're trying to do with it.
I've told you before, gally, quality over quantity. If you actually believe this world-wide conspiracy of scientists is the by-product of "dolts" with a control-freak agenda, going to these extreme lengths out of some unspecified "pride", I won't try to stop you from believing that.
And, like I've told you before, I'm not 100% sure that you do believe this stuff, and are not just doing it as some sort of rhetorical exercise, but I'll take you at face value.
Just understand, that if you're serious, you're in need of some mental health intervention.
Have a nice Thanksgiving, let somebody else handle the carving, please.
Why would anyone bother to put up post after post that knowledgeable folks debunk and make jokes about? There is surely better lines of work out there for someone as plodding as galley.
I doubt he's a paid troll, good propaganda is a lot more concise. If I was paying somebody to win over people who aren't bright enough to see through the Cult stuff, I'd get somebody who could fit his BS on a bumper sticker.
I wonder why they don't just post their "A material" in the first place. I'll check back here in a day or two. Just like donuts, Gally likes to wait until a threads pretty stale to do his big finale.
Hope you had a great Thanksgiving, Mary.
Here I am Anti and just a mere hour or so after you were spouting nonsense below. It's like we almost touched. Heartwarming. I guess it would take a Luddite such as yourself to point out the google groups link. I'll help you out. Paul Horsman to Mick Kelly of CRU:
Hi Mick,
It was good to see you again yesterday - if briefly. One particular thing you said - and we agreed - was about the IPCC reports and the broader climate negotiations were working to the globalisation agenda driven by organisations like the WTO. So my first question is do you have anything written or published, or know of anything particularly on this subject, which talks about this in more detail? My second question is that I am involved in a working group organising a climate justice summit in the Hague and I wondered if you had any contacts, ngos or individuals, with whom you have worked especially from the small island States or similar areas, who could be invited as a voice either to help on the working group and/or to invite to speak?
All the best,
Paul
Paul V. Horsman
Oil Campaigner
Greenpeace International Climate Campaign
Hope that helps...end PART 1
I do love your spin on the UNFCCC link. The irony is I almost linked directly to the negotiating text for COP15 but as you have admitted to being too lazy to read such reports, I figured it would be best, you know, with your short attention span and all, to go to the simplified synopsis since I had done the homework and interpretation for you. Since I think you mentioned something about quantity here are a few of my favorites from that gem:
Page 43: 41. [Providing financial support shall be additional to developed countries' ODA targets.] [Mandatory contributions from developed country Parties and other developed Parties included in Annex II should form the core revenue stream for meeting the cost of adaptation in conjunction with additional sources including share of proceeds from flexible mechanisms.] [This finance should come from the payment of the adaptation debt by developed country Parties and be based principally on public-sector funding, while other alternative sources could be considered.] [[Sources of new and additional financial support for adaptation] [Financial resources of the "Convention Adaptation Fund"Â] [may] [shall] include:
(a) [Assessed contributions [of at least 0.7% of the annual GDP of developed country Parties] [from developed country Parties and other developed Parties included in Annex II to the Convention] [taking into account historical contribution to concentrations of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere];]
(b) [Auctioning of assigned amounts and/or emission allowances [from developed country Parties];]
(c) [Levies on CO2 emissions [from Annex-I Parties [in a position to do so]];]
(d) [Taxes on carbon-intensive products and services from Annex I Parties;]
(e) [[Levies on] [Shares of proceeds from measures to limit or reduce emissions from] international [aviation] and maritime transport;]
(f) Shares of proceeds on the clean development mechanism (CDM), [extension of shares of proceeds to] joint implementation and emissions trading;
(g) [Levies on international transactions [among Annex I Parties];]
(h) [Fines for non-compliance [of Annex I Parties and] with commitments of Annex I Parties and Parties with commitments inscribed in Annex B to the Kyoto Protocol (Annex B Parties);]
(i) [[Additional ODA] [ODA additional to ODA targets] provided through bilateral, regional and other multilateral channels (in accordance with Article 11.5 of the Convention).]
Page 122: 17. [[Developed [and developing] countries] [Developed and developing country Parties] [All Parties] [shall] [should]:] (a) Compensate for damage to the LDCs economy and also compensate for lost opportunities, resources, lives, land and dignity, as many will become environmental refugees; (b) Africa, in the context of environmental justice, should be equitably compensated for environmental, social and economic losses arising from the implementation of response measures.
Page 133: Alternative 1:
An assessed contribution from developed country Parties based on the principles of equity, common but differentiated responsibilities, respective capabilities, GDP, GDP per capita, the polluter pays principle historical responsibility of Annex I Parties, historical climate debt, including adaptation debt, amounting to [[0.5-1][0.8][2] per cent of gross national product] at least [0.5-1 per cent of GDP]].
Page 134: Option 3 Alternative 1: A uniform global levy of USD 2 per tonne of CO2 for all countries with per capita emissions higher than [1.5][2.0] tonnes of CO2; the LDCs shall be exempt. Alternative 2: Taxes on carbon-intensive products and services from Annex I Parties
End PART 2
Now seriously Anti, I know you're the Miyagi here, but I want you to imagine someone sitting there reading our posts, and reading this above directly from the draft agreement on climate change mitigation from COP15, and now please discern whether your shadow-government speak is more persuasive than introducing the reader to terms such as "historical climate debt" and "uniform global levy" and "fines for non-compliance."
Let's help the audience out. I'm sure it's big but nonetheless, let's play Sherlock. You say this:
UNFCC- goes to an MMFA thread from February '10, specifically you accusing people of imagining shadow governments...
That is your characterization of my response to this where rumple says:
So, you are saying that there is some shadow government doing all these things? Because so far, I haven't seen any sort of worldwide agreement to do any of these things, and US is certainly not doing them.
Look them in the eye Anti. Imagine them. Seeing your spin vs. my facts. I have said it many times, but that's all you are. A spin doctor. This same exercise can be repeated with most of your responses. It might look good on screen, but really you are not of the mind to offer substance. Just spin.
End PART 3
I give up. Not sure what's going on with this, but I'm moving on.
End PART 4
Anyway, glad to see you are still offering nothing. Cheers! Oh, the third link. You should be familiar with it. I quote from it in the UNFCCC link. Did you miss them?
Massive income redistribution and presumably high taxation levels may adversely affect the economic efficiency and functioning of world markets.
Cities are compact and designed for public and non-motorized transport, with suburban developments tightly controlled. Strong incentives for low-input, low-impact agriculture, along with maintenance of large areas of wilderness, contribute to high food prices with much lower levels of meat consumption than those in A1.
Still looking them in the eye Anti? Nothing there eh? Keep telling yourself that cuz I'm sure that's how they see it. You have the SD debacle. I look them in the eye and offer them the truth. Americans are kinda into that freedom thing, and that whole sovereignty thing's kinda swell too. The authoritarian green police thing. Not so much. Good luck spreading your rotten message. It really does stink no matter how much lipstick you put on it. Happy holidays!
Somewhere, you should be asking yourself why you think playing the contrarian is satisfying, and why your position is the same position that all Luddites take whenever they're being called upon to change.
The only authoritarian mind set in world politics is the one that imposes poverty on citizens because the oligarchs in charge want to accumulate all the resources for themselves.
You can privately do all the correct environmental stuff you want but you're spreading poison with your free market fantasies.
The only authoritarian mind set in world politics is the one that imposes poverty on citizens because the oligarchs in charge want to accumulate all the resources for themselves.
Unreal. You are a clueless hack and a useful idiot. Here's your refresher zealot:
Here’s how the numbers break down for individuals in both Annex 1 countries (the 20% of the world with relative wealth) and Annex 2 countries (the 80% of the world that are relatively poor):
2100 A1 Golden Economic Age (GEA)
Annex 1 per capita income = $100,000
Annex 2 per capita income = $70,000
Average global per capita income = $76,000
2100 B1 Sustainable Development (SD)
Annex 1 per capita income = $60,000
Annex 2 per capita income = $35,000
Average global per capita income = $40,000
So for all the Barts out there thinking they are trying to help the world’s poor and saying things like “it is not a workable strategy to tell the have-nots that they can’t have any more†and that it’s “morally wrong to not allow others what we allow ourselves,†you do just that with your supposedly good intentions by getting on board the economy-punishing, poverty-prolonging, global-taxation CO2 mitigation bandwagon. You would think with all of that redistribution planned the poor would fare better but they do not. Look at those figures again. The world’s poor will have a 2100 PCI of $35,000 under B1 vs. $70,000 under A1. So I ask you again Bart, does that qualify as “very disruptive to the global economy?â€
You're a joke. And not a funny one either. The course you advocate is the one that imposes poverty dope. Hope you're proud Marey.
What your cut and paste concludes is stupid, really. Lifting people out of poverty isn't the goal of the oligarchs. Exploiting the non renewable resources of our earth only guarantees poverty now and in the future.
You might study how much poverty lifting has occurred in say, Nigeria as a result of the oil oligarchs extracting it from that country as fast as they can.
You are obviously annoyed, and that's amusing. But you're on the wrong side of history, and that isn't going to work in your favor no matter how much you post your little dribble "cheers"
Pollution abatement efforts appear to increase with income, growing willingness to pay for a clean environment, and progress in the development of clean technology. Thus, as incomes rise, pollution should increase initially and later decline, a relationship often referred to as the “environmental Kuznets curve.â€
[There is a] long-established negative correlation between fertility rates and per capita income. Clearly, richer countries uniformly have a relatively low fertility rate. Poorer countries, on average, have a higher fertility rate.
Discussing A1 Golden Economic Age: The global economy expands at an average annual rate of about 3% to 2100, reaching around US$550 trillion (all dollar amounts herein are expressed in 1990 dollars, unless stated otherwise). This is approximately the same as average global growth since 1850, although the conditions that lead to this global growth in productivity and per capita incomes in the scenario are unparalleled in history.
And a few of my own for good measure:
Prolonged poverty is an absolute death sentence for millions. Poverty currently kills about 18 million people per year in mostly the poor nations, and a majority of them are children. So for every year that economic growth is slowed you can be ensured that the poverty rate will be unforgivably elevated.
I guess that’s why they screech so loudly against the prominent skeptics and even the ordinary skeptics like me. CO2 mitigation was their pot of gold, their path to Utopia, and the rainbow is disappearing.
Tasty. You are on the side of the control freaks Mare. Good luck with that. Cheers!
And such plodding along, dribbling drab cheer on multiple web sites with all the wrong-headed drool. Do you have a vendetta against some East Anglican professors? Is it personal?
Hopefully you'll get some help. I do think you've got enough fertilizer online to open up a waste dump.
In your humble little way, do tell us all the policies you'd like to implement once the AGW theory goes away.
Thanks for the info.
When the Anti-American, socialist beaurocrats actually start to put some pressure on China and India (you know, people that often wear surgical masks when walking to work) to curb their emissions, they'll never have any credibility. This movement has long ago ceased to be an environmental movement.
But they won't ever get it. Ever. So stop trying....
Still waiting for a denier paper that can pass muster. Hasn't happened, because it's not science but shilling for industrialists with deep pockets who pay for a preconceived conclusion. Scientific grants are given to conduct science, REGARDLESS of the outcome. That's the difference. Nobody gets a grant to prove climate change is real and/or anthropogenic but to see if X is affected by Y, and wherever that leads a scientist, he reports the findings.
No one is pulling their strings from a corporate board room.
Randy
but we do know you don't understand the peer-reviewed papers that overwhelmingly accept that the climate is changing faster, because of human activity.
But then I got a chance to check your "again" link in your first post. Not only did you go for "climategate" hook, line and sinker when it was fresh, you're reminding everybody ( with great pride, apparently) that you're going for the stale, shriveled , debunked, rotting carcass of that propaganda, just as hungrily as you went for it right out of the oven.
I apologize for my error.
Anything else?
The screeching reaction here by the AGW cultists to my post proves I have plenty idea what this all means. Alas you're late to the party or else you wouldn't level such claims. Before taking "the last line" to task let's touch base with one of your first gems:
[O]ne email does not make or break a scientific theory anymore than one paper.
Tell that to the MBH98 All-Stars. Until that trio came along with their one Schtick paper the consensus opinion was an MWP and RWP that were both warmer than present. But presto, the MWP goes away. Or as stated in this latest batch of emails, "it will be very difficult to make the MWP go away in Greenland." Indeed. Now why did they feel the need to make the MWP "go away?" I digress. Were you to have actually looked for the source of "the last line" rather than ASSUME you knew how to translate it, you would have found this:
I was always under the impression that, in general, solar changes controlled long term changes in climate and volcanic events caused short term cooling. I am surprised when you say that volcanic forcing dominates the models - this seems at odds to papers by Lean and Rind etc. The 1257/59 volcanic event has an obvious effect in the model - yet the recovery is quick - i.e. no effect on the long term trend of the model output. I guess 'clusters' of volcanic events could cause a longer term response of the climate system. How are the relative weightings of the external forcing estimated in the models? Although I agree that GHGs are important in the 19th/20th century (especially since the 1970s), if the weighting of solar forcing was stronger in the models, surely this would diminish the significance of GHGs. Jeez - I sound like a sceptic - this is not my intension. I guess, ultimately, what troubles me is that of the myriad of NH recons out there now, they generally show a MWP that is NOT as warm as the late 20th century. I have no trouble with this - however, the solar activity of the MWP (excluding the Oort minimum) is also generally not as high as the recent period. I know correlation does not mean causation, but it seems to me that by weighting the solar irradiance more strongly in the models, then much of the 19th to mid 20th century warming can be explained from the sun alone. again, am I being overtly simplistic?
Set bait. Hook the AGW guppies. Like shooting fish in a barrel really. Know why? Because for all of the AGW fanatics such as yourself who routinely try to prop up the precious theory and claim skeptics are ignorant, you almost exclusively do so with no ammo. You guys never back it up. Just more hand waving and name calling from your hollow ivory tower of cards. No substance whatsoever. Evidence rules dear friend. Failed models do not. Welcome to the wonderful world of science, rook. Keep on cawing. Cheers!
I've been reading your pitiful propaganda for a while now and its just plain stupid. These E-mails have been around for two years and the right has been lying about them for two years but you are so stupid and so brainwashed you just keep believing the next round of lies.
This issue is simple. The scientists are DOING THE SCIENCE, getting their studies and papers published in peer reviewed articles and the deniers are running a PR campaign just effective enough to fool brainwashed morons like you.
The Solar orbiting observatory has been in orbit for decades, Stanford studies its output EVERY DAY and we know EXACTLY how much warming the Sun is adding. That you WISH we could ignore the evidence and game the stats to show what you WISH is true just proves you are an idiot.
On the whole, the most scientifically literate and numerate subjects were slightly less likely, not more, to see climate change as a serious threat than the least scientifically literate and numerate ones.
Maybe you're so very smart you can track down the source. As for knowing EXACTLY how much warming the Sun is adding, that's a bad joke but no surprise, you know, the science being settled and all. Speaking of gaming the stats, have you seen this one?
I am afraid that Mike is defending something that increasingly can not be defended. He is investing too much personal stuff in this and not letting the science move ahead.
I'll leave you with Old Faithful. Seems apropos.
How come you do not agree with a statement that says we are no where close to knowing where energy is going or whether clouds are changing to make the planet brighter. We are not close to balancing the energy budget. The fact that we can not account for what is happening in the climate system makes any consideration of geoengineering quite hopeless as we will never be able to tell if it is successful or not! It is a travesty!
Cheers!
Are you really concerned about the evidence of corruption in Climate Science, and promoting a scientific review?
When you under stand the difference between the peer review process and the concern for evidence of corruption in Climate Science, you will find the difference between fact and opinion.
Riddle me this Batty men, where are all of the scientists who got rich from Grant money located?
Petty drivel is what your stories attempt to promote; this explains why you come here to distort accuracy in media.
Your links and targeted emails are nothing but a big straw man argument that denies the very basic laws of Math, Physics and Chemistry.
As we know it today, these laws go unchanged regardless of how much money is in the budget.
Here is the Math
The Chemistry
The Physics:
For each gallon of gasoline burned 19.4 pounds of carbon dioxide (CO2) is produced as a byproduct, for diesel it is 22.4 pounds; do not forget coal and natural gas as well, they are about the same.
More than 7.0 X 10^10 pounds of CO2 is produced each day, and has been for many years. The atmosphere has a mass of about 1.1 X 10^19 lbs, three quarters of which is within about 11 km of the surface.
For the record, dry air contains roughly (by volume) 78.09% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.039% carbon dioxide, and small amounts of other gases. Air also contains a variable amount of water vapor, on average around 1% normally.
This would add up to 4.20 X 10^15 lbs of CO2 in the atmosphere. Math being what it is allows us to add these figures together to determine that in the last 100 years we have added more than 2.5 X 10^15 lbs of CO2 to the atmosphere.
Where do all of molecules go that were changed from a liquid state to a gaseous state? This is a simple chemical equation question, which is nothing like the chemical equation for the "meds" that should be given to anybody who seriously doubts what is happening in the world climate.
Here are some known facts:
Carbon Dioxide and water vapor are both polyatomic molecules that absorb heat, which combine as part of the Feed Back Loop.
While it is difficult to specify an exact atmospheric lifetime for CO2, the accepted values range around 100 years.
A relative humidity of 100% and a temperature of 38 C (100 F) would have a heat index of 91 C (196 F). An increase of 3 C to 41 C (106 F) would yield a heat index of 112 C (234 F).
With air temperatures at this level, it is nearly impossible for life to persist for a long period of time and heat indexes have never been reached at this level. We could see these numbers in some areas of the world soon.
Why do you want to wait until we cannot do something to do something?
Figures for anybody to check:
Approximately 31.7 % of total daily world wide fuel consumption is gasoline.
The world uses about,
82,532,000 Barrels/day X 42 gallon/Barrels X 19.4 pounds/CO2
= 67,247,073,600 pounds CO2/day
FNC and the Right could be champions for the undeniable fact that climate change is a reality; instead they cash the checks and continue to defend the Big Business billionaires who are seeking more profit at the expense of all of our children.
"This would add up to 4.20 X 10^15 lbs of CO2 in the atmosphere. Math being what it is allows us to add these figures together to determine that in the last 100 years we have added more than 2.5 X 10^15 lbs of CO2 to the atmosphere."
That's the A in AGW.
If CO2 was REDUCED to a manageable level (the problem is not human-originated CO@, but excessive), the global temperature is assumed to return to a more stable and natural level overtime .
It's essentially an irreversible change that will last for more than a thousand years.
Guess we'd be better off planning on adaptation rather than mitigation. I doubt we'll need either though. Perhaps we can return to addressing real environmental degradation now.
The chemical reaction that occurs when we burn fossil fuels is changing the climate of the Earth, and denying it is happening will not make it stop.
Maybe you missed the part where CO2 is a polyatomic molecule and absorbs heat, as do water vapor molecules. Nitrogen, Oxygen and Argon do not absorb and transfer heat. The Sun shines on the Earth 24/7/365 bringing 5.5 X 1024 J of energy each year and we cannot shut if off for turn it down.
Here is the First Law of Thermodynamics: Energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed. The total amount of energy and matter in the Universe remains constant, merely changing from one form to another.
Do you remember when Lead (Pb) was added to gasoline? That Lead was found to be contaminating the entire environment and something had to be done, and guess what, we did.
Fact:
In 1979, cars released 94.6 million kilograms (kg; 1 kg equals 2.2 pounds) of lead into the air in the United States. In 1989, when the use of lead was limited but not banned, cars released only 2.2 million kg to the air.
We can do something if we work together.
No MORON it is being lazy to omit the apostrophe that shift key is WAY over there. Are you on medication? Are you going to DENY that there is a scientific consensus on this issue? I mean you are STUPID enough to but it is not in dispute that there is consensus on this issue.
GOD but you are stupid. I could. I HAVE called Stanford before and talked to the head of their physics dept. I wanted to find out what was happening with the Suns magnetic field. He told me EXACTLY what the magnetic field of the Sun was the day before in microteslas.
I dont CARE what a poll of nonscientists believe about this issue. I cant think of anything LESS relevant. I care what the scientists IN THE FIELD doing the science think.
You are a punk. A very stupid and brainwashed punk who only cares about the PR. It doesnt bother you that you deniers are not DOING any science. Where are your peer reviewed studies? They donte exist now YOU are stupid but as a rational human it bothers me that those trying to debunk science arent doing science to do so.
I always feel sad for someone as stupid as you who has fooled themselves into thinking they are really smart. It is the sort of delusion that leads you to make a fool out of yourself repeatedly as you constantly do on this site. You are stupid, you are brainwashed, you are pathetic and if you arent careful you always will be
That implication—which naturally provokes resistance—is likely to be strengthened when communicators with a recognizable cultural identity stridently accuse those who disagree with them of lacking intelligence or integrity.
Since you asked for it again, here you go again. I know Mare loves it. You two should get together. Cheers!
Again, you're in way over your head, and the odd thing is, you don't even recognize that you're making a fool out of yourself.
I'm sure that your posts get fawned over by other deniers on other web sites. However, posting irrelevant stuff and previously debunked stats, and cherry-picked quotes somehow doesn't dazzle this crowd.
By the way MORON dont think it escaped my attention that you didnt adress the points I made. You really are stupid
A consensus opinion of over 97% of active climate scientists carries more weight than a handful of cherry-picked out of context bits of emails. After seeing how dishonestly the first batch of quotes were used by a bunch of denialist liars, I have little reason to take any of the new batch at face value. I have even less reason to accept your spin on them.
I have previously confirmed that I have never knowingly deleted an email that was the subject of an active Freedom of Information request and neither have I deleted data.
Jones after:
With the earlier FOI requests re David Holland, I wasted a part of a day deleting numerous emails and exchanges with almost all the skeptics. So I have virtually nothing. I even deleted the email that I inadvertently sent. There might be some bits of pieces of paper, but I'm not wasting my time going through these.
Oops. Think he'll be "exonerated" next time? What is the face value on that one Bluff? Two cents? And man have I not addressed the 97% meme enough already? C'mon now. That's your infamous "last word" thread you got all worked up in a lather about. 97% is a fallacy. Look up the facts dude. Seriously.
Regardless, it would only deal with discussions back and forth between scientists. That is the only area in which the inquiries DID find fault. They felt harassed by constant nuisance requests and, for better or worse, engaged in the quite human tendency to push back. This was especially true of Jones who seems to be an exceptionally cantankerous old fart. However, the inquiries also found there was no dishonest tampering with any of the underlying data from which they drew their conclusions. Nothing has changed that.
As for your "97% is a fallacy" claim, the case you make in your links is extremely weak. It doesn't refute the factual nature of the survey at all. A genuine refutation would involve some of those who were surveyed claiming that the survey results didn't accurately reflect their positions. This is what we saw in large numbers with the bogus surveys that claimed to show scientific skepticism toward ACC. We aren't seeing any of that with the 97% survey. Most of the case you tried to build boiled down to your level of personal credulity. I don't really give that much weight. And those are the facts I looked up, dude.
1. When compared with pre-1800s levels, do you think that mean global temperatures have generally risen, fallen, or remained relatively constant?
2. Do you think human activity is a significant contributing factor in changing mean global temperatures?
That's what you're hanging your hat on? Boiled down whatever. Look it up again. The 97% meme is as hollow and shallow as the theory itself. Cheers!
Yep...and you're right on target and I enjoyed a good laugh as well. mmfa's incessant defense of the crumbling spectre of man-made global warming brings to mind Homer Stokes proclaiming, "It's twue, It's twue."
And their sycophants? Julie Andrews sings a beautiful ballad about them:
Just like a child, who, late from school walks bravely
home through the park.
To keep their spirits soaring and keep the night at bay.
Neither quite knowing which way they are going, they sing
the shadows away,
Whistling away the dark.
Happy Thanksgiving!
The climate is changing and man is the cause.
If there is a "crumbling spectre" here, it is anthropogenic climate change denialism.
This should help...it details how the IPCC and man-made global warming alarmists handle scientific data.
Here's what an EX-global warming alarmist had to say about listening to Al Gore and the IPCC phony-up the data.
I knew wes wouldn't disappoint!
No they can't. Because the science isn't on their side.
Anyone who hasn't watched this series, should see it. It deals with science and why climate change is backed by science, and why most attempts at denying climate change is not.
Part 1.
Beginning with episode three, it gets really entertaining. That's when he starts showing just dumb most of the denier's arguments are.
On the whole, the most scientifically literate and numerate subjects were slightly less likely, not more, to see climate change as a serious threat than the least scientifically literate and numerate ones.
Cheers!
Cue to paragraphs of empty mockery and some reference to cultism.
GOD but you are stupid. After that display nothing else really need be said
See above.
Conservatives have developed this habit of working themselves into wild contortions (as well as building public policy) on carefully manufactured fantasies.
Its a disturbing contrivance that your hard wired programming maintains even in the face of the most crucial evidence otherwise.
Thats why we broke the national coffers on an unjust war that was never warranted, that killed millions, and that took us a decade away from hunting bin Laden.
Thats why Citizens United gave corrupt corporations more power than your average american worker.
Thats why the GOP (ESPECIALLY those hideous Tea PArty freshmen) held medical coverage for 9-11 First Responders as hostage to Tax Breaks for only the very wealthiest Americans (and the country DOES remember that, btw.)
Thats also why your party is chasing away its most qualified talent (eg, Mike Lofgren,) and thats why the rest of the country is seeing you for the deranged, brainwashed pack of lunatic fanatics that you truly are.
Again, John Hunstman is right... you cant run away from science. I dont know why you make such an effort to do so.
Why you have chosen politically charged delusion and superstition over a truth that effects you as much as any of your neighbors, is beyond me.
Maybe the whole GOP party got that vaccination which Bachmann claims to cause mental retardation. I guess you folks are better off at your pox parties.
Thanks!
Funnymanpants however debunked all of his cherry picked quotes and other talking point garbage on there. It was quite entertaining to think that he actually linked to a thread in which he was so thoroughly humiliated.
We've both got a day off apparently. But I'm sure that you'll be leaving to re-cycle something and enjoy your beautiful life of climate change denial.
p.s. My name really is Mary.
If you believe that cherry picking through tons of stolen emails, finding a statement by one person that when taken out of the greater context appears to show level of reservation, and then hyping that and declaring "GOTCHA" while ignoring the mountains of actual SCIENTIFIC evidence, then...I guess you can enjoy a hollow giggle.
Unfortunately, we live in a world where scientific laws and theories and physical reality trump wishful thinking and partisan media charades...every single time.
If you found a leaked email from a doctor taken out of it's greater context talking to a colleague about "cancer not being the issue", does that change anything for those suffering with cancer? Should we tell patients to stop faking it and quit the chemotherapy?
Your lack of common sense and basic grasp of how things work in the adult world is astounding.
Morons as stupid as you will believe anything you are told to think.
And that's why believers such as yourself are more likely to be duped by inaccurate activist science? How's that meshin?
Unfortunately, we live in a world where scientific laws and theories and physical reality trump wishful thinking and partisan media charades...every single time.
I honestly could not have said it better myself. I guess I would change "Unfortunately" to "Fortunately" but truly you have captured the crux of the issue: the Church of Climatology, or is that Crimatology, has assisted you into buying the anti-human media charade that promoted, heavily, a weakly supported non-empirical theory as "settled science." Suckers on both ends fly on blind faith and for AGW cultists their "wishful thinking" of humanity as scourge was granted. But, fortunately, [insert the rest of your sentence here].
The smell of Big Oil and the Koch Bros. is all over you like stink on a skunk.
Randy
You laugh at the idea that Climate Change, if it goes unchecked, would cause a disaster, constantly posting links mocking the idea and calling it "anti-human". Hell you laughed at the concerns of the people of Tuvalu and Maldives (probably ignoring the fact that they lie really under the sea level). Reading from all your posts that involve the UN, i'm not surprised if you even believed in the NWO.
You call yourself an environmentalist. Apparently, the environment ends outside of your own home.
What I wanted to achieve changing the order was a certain internal logic by putting the dimensions in a sequence of "causes and results". This implies also certain ranking of dimensions. E.g.: "global governance" may be treated as a "top hierarchy" driving force; if it is perfect (see left side of the table)" global institutions" are well developed and "geopolitical stability" is achieved; next, if all three dimensions are highly positive the "free communication and global co-operation" is ensured; all above provides a good background for "good education" .... a.s.o.
And everyone sings Kumbaya! It's gonna be a swell weekend. Cheers!
No he isnt right he is just brainwashed by the same corporate shills as you have been. Deniers arent even TRYING to do the science since they know people like YOU are so stupid and so gullible they dont have to. They just run a PR campaign. They dont even run a good one since they know they dont have to. Morons as stupid as you will believe anything you are told to think
On the whole, the most scientifically literate and numerate subjects were slightly less likely, not more, to see climate change as a serious threat than the least scientifically literate and numerate ones.
Cheers!
I am repeating the GOD you are stupid citation because it is ASTONISHING how stupid you are. AGAIN that is meaningless. A poll of NON SCIENTISTS not working in the field not doing study on this matter means NOTHING. Not when the scientists who ARE doing the studies are overwhelmingly convinced of the fact of GW.
AGAIN, and it is sad that I keep having to bring up this most important fact and it is sadder you are so STUPID that it doesnt seem to mean anything to you. You deniers are NOT DOING THE SCIENCE. Where are the denier peer reviewed studies? They dont exist because your side is doing only PR. PR only good enough to fool ignorant and gullible imbeciles like you
That implication—which naturally provokes resistance—is likely to be strengthened when communicators with a recognizable cultural identity stridently accuse those who disagree with them of lacking intelligence or integrity.
And this. Enjoy. Cheers!
How many beers are you on?
I feel sorry for you, since you make such an effort to render your arm-chair computer searches more valid than years of real hard work, comparative data gathering and qualitative analysis by seasoned, reliable scientists.
You really think you have it all figured out, eh pal?
I bet you think Brit Hume is an expert on Buddhism, or that Stossel is a reliable source on urban poverty, too.
For the record, you actually need some formal training in geo science to understand the lingo, the methods, the data, the concerns, etc... This is especially crucial when it comes to interpreting data for general review.
You have proven time and again that you completely lack the basics of that essential understanding, and that you are more than willing to defer towards politically charged hallucinations, or popular (albeit inaccurate) Tea Party fantasies.
Now, since you do seem to need some reading to occupy your holiday, you might want to check out the reports by Richard muller, a former global warming sceptic whose work was funded, in part, by the Koch Brothers...
Heres an article from the Christian Science Monitor.
Remember, this study was funded in part by the Koch Brothers..., you know, those evil, greedy s o b s who bankroll the Tea Party (along with Dick Armey... how apropo!)?
These guys have done everything in their power to make sure that banks and corporations have more rights than you average American school teacher, and are entirely interested in debunking what they call a global warming myth.
And even their study had to defer to real science, and the reality of global warming.
But speaking of Tea Parties or their questionable funding, you can check out this begrudging article on the subject from Glenn Becks Blaze..., that is, if the CSMonitor is too liberal for you.
You can read the Blazes very reluctant admission yourself.
Now Galileoleonardo, you might want to consider one very important point.
The political agenda to which you have dedicated yourself cannot trump science.
As John Huntsman rightly warned your whole self-deluding right wing community, the GOP NEEDS to come to terms with science. You cant just wish it away.----
I know the Tea parties want to take us back to their halcyon days of Witch Burnings, blood letting and legalized slavery. But as far as the issue global warming goes, you guys really are making your hallucinatory fanaticism more than apparent.
With respect to that issue, I dont know why you all actively choose the insanity of a Michele Bachmann, the stupidity of of a Rick Perry, the dishonesty of a Newt Gingrich, the creepiness of a Herman Cain (or is it Herb Cain ?). But your attempts to obviate real science just so some coal factory wont have to make itself safe for its workers and the environment..., well, thats just unconscionable.
Although, as the Iraq War made clear, the GOP has NO problem putting its wealthy, corrupt crony corporations ahead of real human lives.
No surprise there.
No wonder long-time GOP staffer Mike Lofgren went running from your insane pack of nazis this year!
In anticipation Sca you can visit this. I'm curious, have the Muller papers made it through peer review yet? Crash, Anti, Bluff, don't choke on the wishbone. Talk to you soon. Hugs!
I especially look forward to discussing matters with you Crash. You could pre-empt me and offer some corrections to your work, or perhaps a few retractions. This can be your 24-hour-or-so notice that comments are forthcoming.
Maybe you can make some changes to that first draft, before I do. I can give you a few bread crumbs for Thanksgiving breakfast. Perhaps you'll find your way. Here's one: upside-down Tiljander. This might help you prep too:
Phil, you must be very careful about deleting material, more particularly when you delete it.
More to come. Cheers!
To illustrate what you're dishonestly doing, I can say that the Bible says there isn't a God. How? By cherry-picking quotes and posting them out of context. Ready?
"There is no God." --Psalm 14:1
You should have quit long ago. Every post you make shows only how stupid you are and how brainwashed you are. Deal with what Cat said. You really DO think your computer searches of denial websites and propaganda churned out by the PR campaign your side is doing instead of DOING THE SCIENCE is more reliable and makes you more of an expert than those DOING THE SCIENCE in this field for decades. I cannot think of a better definition of hubris nor a more handy one for STUPID.
Wow, she really gets to you eh?
As John Hunstmen rightly said, You conservative fanatics CANNOT run away from science.
You should stop trying to make such a concerted effort to do so... the results are always disastrous.
You ran away from reliable data on Iraq, and you ran away from the truth about Bin laden hiding at the pleasure of Bush-Cheney allies in Pakistan.
You ran away from the truth about holding health coverage for 9-11 First Responders (as hostage to tax breaks for the wealthiest one percent,) even as you run away from real history with your racist, anti-gay marriage pledges (Bachmann) or your heartless lampooning of the Holocaust (Beck).
In running away from reality (yet again) you are endangering everyone... just like as with your pointless war and just like in your uncompromising disdain for political reconciliation.
Its no wonder you guys are trained by the Washington Times, a publication which promotes your lies, embeds your hatered for science and which was, incidentally, founded by the Moonies.
You do know who the Moonies are, right Gall?
Throughout the last 30 years or so, the hyper conservative Moonies have been synonymous in America with brainwashing.
Outside of vandalizing the homes of Central American refugees, the Moonies have made it a practice not just to brainwash their charges, but to teach them to brainwash themselves on the masters behalf.
Founding the Washington Times was an explicit milestone in that agenda, as Rev moon himself stated.
(You would do Rev Moon quite proud, Gal... you are EXACTLY what he said he wanted to create when he founded the Washington Times.)
On top of it all, the Moonies are the authors of one of the strongest conservative periodicals in the country. (look it up, pal.)
Its no surprise that one of the major conservative mainstream media outlets was founded by the Moonies, nor is it any surprise that Monica Crowley, Andrew Breitbart and a host of other Fox News contributors are paid employees of the Moonies via the Washington Times.
Consider your bedfellows, dear.
I have already provided enough solid proof on my end... even posting a link to articles on the Koch funded study.
Meanwhile, you seem to hope that your self-important handle might lend you some credibility... it doesnt, and everything you post only reveals how truly off base you are.
At the very least, i hope you are getting paid to be so daft and unaware... but sadly, it looks like you give it away for free.
Blind faith must be its own reward, eh?
Have fun making a political religion out of lying to yourself. Your master would be quite proud.
toodles punkin!
I have already provided enough solid proof on my end...
Yeah, solid indeed, and not just from your end but out your mouth as well. Cheers!
And again, all about you.
For the record, you actually need some formal training in geo science to understand the lingo, the methods, the data, the concerns, etc... This is especially crucial when it comes to interpreting data for general review. You have proven time and again that you completely lack the basics of that essential understanding...
Funny stuff. The old appeal to authority again. Rich. Here's Muller on the real question BTW (have you done your homework?):
How much of the warming is due to humans and what will be the likely effects? We made no independent assessment of that.
And your mirror moment:
The political agenda to which you have dedicated yourself cannot trump science.
The rest of your drivel doesn't warrant much comment. It is pretty pathetic. Not sure how any of that pointless meandering applies to me since I am mostly quite left of center, but I guess you needed to get that off your chest. Maybe you should get a diary or something. Perhaps a dream journal. That way you can keep the crazies at bay, or at least out of the public eye. Cheers!
The mirror moment isn't too far off. Just work on it a bit more. Maybe try some tequila to go with the Coors.
OK:
That paper that was written many years ago was shown to have flaws. The data is much more complete today and I'm sure the paper likely wouldn't survive the peer review process today. Of course, it probably would be written very different today given all the new data that is present.
Hey, if your emails are ever stolen, they'll probably be completely misinterpreted by a bunch of political hacks who are totally ignorant about science. Just delete your emails to avoid giving them "proof" of a conspiracy.
Right now, we're losing the PR game because people don't understand climate science. We have to do a better job of educating the public.
A lot of "science" out there is actually corporate funded BS. Since most people don't know the difference between crap and real science, maybe if we reveal some of that BS in a tabloid way, it will appeal to today's reality show public that often doesn't have an attention span of more than five minutes.
Make sure your data is solid and that your message is accurate. Any mistakes will be picked apart by the partisan hacks who know nothing about science and are being payed by corporations who like to cause global warming in order to make huge profits. Always remember that in Washington, every issue is a political one.
Though some disagree, the best data we have show that solar RF is not the cause of global warming. Given that methane CFCs and aerosols are not increasing, it must be CO2 that's causing global warming.
(No comment can be made either way because there is absolutely no reference here. They may be talking about someone who is using poor data to dispute global warming--give context to prove otherwise.)
If we're ever going to defeat the scientific illiterates and prove to people that there is no real debate among scientists, we have to start doing a better job in the PR department. After all, the corporations who are trying to cloud the issue spend billions on PR.
If we change something in the models (like solar forcing), it changes the outcomes. I'm sure glad there are tons of peer reviewed papers showing that solar forcing hasn't been a significant factor in the last forty years and no peer reviewed papers showing that is has.
Cheers and happy reading (interpreting?)
I'm sure the paper likely wouldn't survive the peer review process today.
That was my first hint, upside-down Tiljander. Mann et al. (2008). Not only did it survive peer review, no correction was offered and the incorrect use of the proxy has been picked up many times since. Further, the "no-dendro" eureka moment turned out to be fantasy.
Just delete your emails to avoid giving them "proof" of a conspiracy.
Yes, my second hint. Here it is in full:
Phil, you must be very careful about deleting material, more particularly when you delete it. Section 77 of the FOIA state as follows:
77. (1) Where
(a) a request for information has been made to a public authority, and
(b) under section 1 of this Act or section 7 of the [1988 c. 29.] Data Protection Act 1998,the applicant would have been entitled (subject to payment of any fee) to communication of any information in accordance with that section, any person to whom this subsection applies is guilty of an offence if he alters, defaces, blocks, erases, destroys or conceals any record held by the public authority, with the intention of preventing the disclosure by that authority of all, or any part, of the information to the communication of which the applicant would have been entitled.
(2) Subsection (1) applies to the public authority and to any person who is employed by, is an officer of, or is subject to the direction of, the public authority.
(3) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale.
If information is deleted as part of an ongoing records management retention schedule, then it can and should proceed. Deleting information in response to a request is an offence as noted above.
An offence and offensive perchance.
Right now, we're losing the PR game because people don't understand climate science. We have to do a better job of educating the public.
That's simply not the case, though often conjured. This is certainly not an issue of improving communication. The evidence bears that out as shown in the quote I offered many times at this point, though for other reasons:
On the whole, the most scientifically literate and numerate subjects were slightly less likely, not more, to see climate change as a serious threat than the least scientifically literate and numerate ones.
Also from that report:
Resolving controversies over climate change and like risk issues requires dispelling this tragedy of the risk-perception commons (Hardin 1968). A strategy that focuses only on improving transmission of sound scientific information, it should be clear, is highly unlikely to achieve this objective. The principal reason people disagree about climate change science is not that it has been communicated to them in forms they cannot understand.
You go on:
A lot of "science" out there is actually corporate funded BS.
In the case Mann was talking about, was that warranted? Did McIntyre need to be investigated as Mann wished?
Given that methane CFCs and aerosols are not increasing, it must be CO2 that's causing global warming.
That is absolutely not how the scientific method works. That is post-normal thinking and anathema in most scientific fields. Not climate science though. Such unfounded correlation is its cornerstone.
No comment can be made either way because there is absolutely no reference here. They may be talking about someone who is using poor data to dispute global warming--give context to prove otherwise.
Here you go.
If we're ever going to defeat the scientific illiterates and prove to people that there is no real debate among scientists, we have to start doing a better job in the PR department. After all, the corporations who are trying to cloud the issue spend billions on PR.
That would work if AGW hadn't gotten a free ride for over a decade. I'm not sure how you can claim otherwise.
If we change something in the models (like solar forcing), it changes the outcomes. I'm sure glad there are tons of peer reviewed papers showing that solar forcing hasn't been a significant factor in the last forty years and no peer reviewed papers showing that is has.
Except that that's not true. The forcing hasn't been accounted for. See CLOUD for a recent example. And it isn't just solar forcing that is poorly modeled. In my comment above I provide the entire quote. That should help expand on what was being said.
I do appreciate your attempt. It is a welcome change considering the lack of substance I usually encounter (see above for plenty of examples). Cheers!
But something concerns me. You seem to be moving backward. In the past, I've seen you post your stories in the middle of summer, almost unheard of from your fellow congregants.You were sort of the smart kid in special class, going beyond the " tee hee, it's snowing in New England in January / Algore is fat" level of most of your fellow travelers.
Is the church becoming that hard to defend ?
I also thought you were above the "climategate" thing, but now you seem to be getting on board with that train that was taken out of service quite a while ago. What gives ?
You're much funnier when you put out a little effort, when you put on your smart guy hat, and try to distinguish yourself from the typical cultists. Let's kick it back up a notch, shall we?
If you get back here, I'd love to see more about the conspiracy driving "global warming alarmism" being a long-term scheme to deprive your grandchildren of their Christmas bonuses. That one was super!
Hope you had a nice quiet summer, hope you're ready for your ( to quote Cosmo Kramer) "Crazy Season". Cheers !
This dishonest use of cherry-picked out of context quotes is very familiar to me. I've seen the same dishonest technique used for years by dishonest creationists. It's so common that Talkorigins created their Quote Mine Project to deal with the most common dishonest examples. [the "dishonest" angle can't be emphasized too much]
That's some fine, science-loving company you denialists are keeping.
Yeah, not even close.
Review the reports. They are vetted. They are peer reviewed. They are solid science. If they weren't, they would have been destroyed already, and rightfully so.
Sloppy science is easily discovered. Folks looking for it ain't gonna find it in these e-mails, look at the published works. These are akin to 2 guys having a conversation over dinner and are much ado about, well, nothing.
So tired of ignorant opinion masquerading as something else throughout American society. In no other nation on the planet will you find a bigger collection of liars, scum, intellectual whores, and ignorant nobodies than on American 'news' and in American politics.
I know - I visited this post expecting to see something from wesley.
Like the first snowflake, or the decorations at the mall, I think we're seeing the first signs of the season. Duhhhhhh... I gots to go shuvvel some globel warming outta my driveway...hyuk hyuk!
There will be e-mails and phone calls and other correspondence between us and writers as we question, verify, and discuss issues like this.
I guess this means that the company I work for is trying to hide stuff by telling writers we shouldn't publish factually inaccurate stuff?
Seriously, the demarcation in American society between 'idiot' and 'reasonable human being' is growing ever more obvious and apparent to the outside world. Your nation seems like its being run by a giant collection of super-idiots, whose only motivations are overwhelming greed and unbridled dishonesty.
Go Fax news! raw raw raw
They're only interested in conflict for conflict's sake. Blood on the floor sells, even if it's only metaphorical blood. None of the give a flying fu(k for the material facts under discussion.
The gentleman in Berkeley reviewed all the data and concluded that the original report was correct. To drive this news off the front page, the hackers brought to light more old emails.
Since we have a fresh report based on the original data - which do not appear to be in dispute - a reported funded and conducted by people who thought the results would be 180 degrees from what came out - it doesn't really make any difference what folks told each other several years ago.
This is typical right wing nutz BS - distract, deflect, do their level best to change the subject. Keep pushing the Big Tobacco Strategy - "The science isn't settled." Perhaps this is like real-world intelligence - it is never settled. That's why it is science. However, the weight of the available evidence is so clear that we must stop debating the reality and start a serious conversation regarding what the heck we're all going to do about it.
And now that a former skeptic is on board, the deniers are freaking out. So they have set off more false alarms to distract the public from that uncomely, damning fact.
Randy
...completely ignored by these shysters. Instead, they resort to "Duurrr, hurrrh, you forgot about the sun...harr harr!" or "LOL, climate changed before so cavemen drove SUVs! HARR HARR!" or "Mars is warming! Must be Martians driving Escalades!" or "You stupid libs want to control everyone!"
Anything to distract from their completely vacuous argument.
ClimateGate 2.0
Keep drinking the climate kool-aid, folks. You are all being scammed.
I find it hypocritical that you all attack the right because of their "faith". Why can't we do the same to you? You do realize that climate change is a belief, one based on faith that this so-called "consensus" is true.
Fixed...
This sounds like you don't believe in any kind of climate change.(?)
Yes, I believe you are being scammed.
There is plenty of evidence from plenty of scientists that debunk a lot of the basis behind AGW (on scientific grounds). Liberals are the true deniers.
Are these e-mails simply made up by some right-wing conspiracy? Get your heads out of the sand, folks...
Hide the decline...
Do you believe in climate change or not.
Yes, the controversy over these stolen email is some kind of conspiracy. Right wing? I think money trumps politics the vast majority of the time and I do believe the pretend controversy over mans effect on climate is driven by monied interests.
Don't forget about the "trick" that "hide the decline" is all about. You wouldn't want to leave out any of your talking points.