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Media Already Botching Reports On Hacked Climate Emails

November 22, 2011 4:57 pm ET by Jocelyn Fong

Earlier today I asked whether American news outlets would do their due diligence in evaluating the content of the newly-released batch of "Climategate" emails hacked from the University of East Anglia two years ago. It didn't take long for our esteemed print outlets to disappoint.

Writing on the Washington Post's website, Juliet Eilperin quotes an email exchange that she said was about "whether the IPCC has accurately depicted the temperature rise in the lower atmosphere":

In one round of e-mails, researchers discuss whether the IPCC has accurately depicted the temperature rise in the lower atmosphere. An official from the U.K. Met Office, a scientific organization which analyzes the climate, writes to the Climate Research Unit's former director Phil Jones at one point, "Observations do not show rising temperatures throughout the tropical troposphere unless you accept one single study and approach and discount a wealth of others. This is just downright dangerous. We need to communicate the uncertainty and be honest. Phil, hopefully we can find time to discuss these further if necessary [...]"

Later, the official adds, "I also think the science is being manipulated to put a political spin on it which for all our sakes might not be too clever in the long run."

Astoundingly, Eilperin does not tell readers that these email exchanges took place in February 2005 and were about the first draft of a chapter of the IPCC report released two years later. The emails depict the authors of the chapter hashing out what should be included -- exactly what you would expect this process to look like.

After providing comments on the draft, then-Met Office official Peter Thorne wrote: "I'm pretty sure we can reconcile these things relatively simply. However, I certainly would be unhappy to be associated with it if the current text remains through final draft - I'm absolutely positive it won't."

So were his concerns addressed in the final draft? If only we had reporters who asked these questions. For his part, The Hill's Ben Geman simply repeats what Eilperin reported, while admitting that he hasn't even "been able to view the newly released emails."

In the email exchange, Thorne provides comments "on the upper-air portion" of the chapter. He wrote: "There is little effective communication in the main text of the uncertainty that is inherent in these measures," later adding, "we need to communicate the uncertainty and be honest."

And this is from the final version of the chapter, which cites Thorne's own research at least 5 times:

Within the community that constructs and actively analyses satellite- and radiosonde-based temperature records there is agreement that the uncertainties about long-term change are substantial. Changes in instrumentation and protocols pervade both sonde and satellite records, obfuscating the modest long-term trends. Historically there is no reference network to anchor the record and establish the uncertainties arising from these changes - many of which are both barely documented and poorly understood. Therefore, investigators have to make seemingly reasonable choices of how to handle these sometimes known but often unknown influences. It is difficult to make quantitatively defensible judgments as to which, if any, of the multiple, independently derived estimates is closer to the true climate evolution. This reflects almost entirely upon the inadequacies of the historical observing network and points to the need for future network design that provides the reference sonde-based ground truth.

Raphael Satter of the Associated Press has also has a premature report, which has been published on the websites of countless news outlets, asserting that the emails "appeared to show climate scientists talking in conspiratorial tones about ways to promote their agenda." What agenda is that? The article doesn't say. Satter admits that the context of the emails "couldn't be determined" because the "Associated Press has not yet been able to secure a copy" of the documents.

UPDATE 11/23: The Washington Post has changed its blog to note that the email exchange was in 2005 and dealt with an "early draft" of an IPCC chapter. That change is also reflected in the Eilperin's page 2 story today.

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    • Author by ifthethunderdontgetya™³²®© (November 22, 2011 5:01 pm ET)
      9 2
      The WaPo doesn't want to upset its advertisers, or big money (e.g. The Graham family, owners of the WaPo).
      ~
      Report Abuse
    • Author by danielsangeo (November 22, 2011 5:07 pm ET)
      13 2
      The so-called "ClimateGate" e-mails are astoundingly absent in evidence that scientists are trying to pull a fast one.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by galileonardo (November 23, 2011 12:29 am ET)
        4 20
        At this point I have to laugh, rather heartily I must add. Who are the deniers, really? "Astoundingly absent" from these comments and this MMfA story is reality. Have you guys read beyond MMfA's shallow indignation and nothing-to-see-here hand waving? Maybe you guys can try spinning these. Please do put them in context for me:

        Furthermore, the model output is very much determined by the time series of forcing that is selected, and the model sensitivity which essentially scales the range. Mike only likes these because they seem to match his idea of what went on in the last millennium, whereas he would savage them if they did not. Also--& I'm sure you agree--the Mann/Jones GRL paper was truly pathetic and should never have been published. I don't want to be associated with that 2000 year "reconstruction".

        I've been told that IPCC is above national FOI Acts. One way to cover yourself and all those working in AR5 would be to delete all emails at the end of the process.

        Somehow we have to leave them thinking OK, climate change is extremely complicated, BUT I accept the dominant view that people are affecting it, and that impacts produces risk that needs careful and urgent attention.

        I have been talking w/ folks in the states about finding an investigative journalist to investigate and expose McIntyre, and his thusfar unexplored connections with fossil fuel interests. Perhaps the same needs to be done w/ this Keenan guy.

        I can't overstate the HUGE amount of political interest in the project as a message that the Government can give on climate change to help them tell their story. They want the story to be a very strong one and don't want to be made to look foolish.

        Similarly IPCC in their discussion on solar RF since the Maunder Minimum are very dependent on the paper by Wang et al (which I have been unable to access) in the decision to reduce the solar RF significantly despite the many papers to the contrary in the ISSI workshop. All this leaves the IPCC almost entirely dependent on CO2 for the explanation of current global temperatures as in Fig 2.23. since methane CFCs and aerosols are not increasing.

        Clearly, some tuning or very good luck involved. I doubt the modeling world will be able to get away with this much longer.

        The important thing is to make sure they're loosing the PR battle. That's what the site is about.

        Although I agree that GHGs are important in the 19th/20th century (especially since the 1970s), if the weighting of solar forcing was stronger in the models, surely this would diminish the significance of GHGs.

        It seems to me that by weighting the solar irradiance more strongly in the models, then much of the 19th to mid 20th century warming can be explained from the sun alone.

        Cheers! Happy Thanksgiving again! Looks like I have a ton of good reading material to get through this weekend. Enjoy yours as well!
        Report Abuse
        • Author by fantagor (November 23, 2011 2:12 am ET)
          19 3
          Your insight into this email quote is wonderful-ly absent.

          You dump this on here like a smoking gun, when it's patently obvious you have no idea what any of this means, nor its implications or influences on current climate change paradigms, nor the slightest clue that one email does not make or break a scientific theory anymore than one paper.

          Take the last line:

          It seems to me that by weighting the solar irradiance more strongly in the models, then much of the 19th to mid 20th century warming can be explained from the sun alone.

          Translation: if we change the models to ASSUME solar irradiance plays a larger role, then much of the current warming can be explained from the sun alone. That does not mean that making such an adjustment is warranted by the data. Just that if we tweak a model, it changes the conclusion...which is true of EVERY MODEL IN EXISTENCE.

          Welcome to wonderful world of science, rookie, where scientists discuss ideas in an open fashion sans conspiracies.

          Randy
          Report Abuse
          • Author by aBeck in 10-O-C (November 23, 2011 5:31 am ET)
            17 3
            This is Christmas come early for the armchair AGW-denier sleuths. Gallingnardo is gleefully pouring through the reams of freshly provided cherry-picked quotes and updating his cut-and-pasted data base, that he will be uploading onto the MMFA threads. This is just the "bat signal" he has been waiting for.
            Of course it is always such a treat when he links us to that meticulously archived collection of his own pseudo-scientific diatribes scattered about (or as he might argue--published at) various internet comment threads.
            However...
            ...borrowing from Shawn Lawrence Otto's blog::

            The illegally hacked personal emails go on (and on) for reams and reams of mind-numbing back and forth that even the climate deniers that are happily hosting them say they haven't had time to read - they just do text searches for any damning-sounding words they can think of, pull up those highlights, take the ones that seem to confirm their position out of context, and direct attention to them.

            After the 2009 climate email scandal--apparently timed to disrupt the Copenhagen climate talks, six separate investigations found that there was no scandal, it was cooked up out of nothing, and the underlying data was solid.

            This second release of hacked emails suggests they are intended to cause maximum impact before the upcoming climate summit in Durban which starts on Monday

            Report Abuse
            • Author by galileonardo (November 24, 2011 12:28 am ET)
              3 12
              Ho-ho-ho! More BOLD humor. Beck, you can try to SHOUT to the heavens that the whitewash inquiries "exonerated" the scientists and their science, but could you please then direct me to where any of the inquiries actually assessed the validity of the science?

              Solid all right, but not in the way you intend. Here's another challenge for you Becky. Perhaps you can start putting together Phil Jones' response in the next House of Commons Science and Technology Committee report on "The Reviews into the University of East Anglia's Climatic Research Unit's E-mails" when they ask him about this new quote from the latest batch of emails:

              With the earlier FOI requests re David Holland, I wasted a part of a day deleting numerous emails and exchanges with almost all the skeptics. So I have virtually nothing. I even deleted the email that I inadvertently sent. There might be some bits of pieces of paper, but I'm not wasting my time going through these.

              But here's Jones' statement in the first report:

              I have previously confirmed that I have never knowingly deleted an email that was the subject of an active Freedom of Information request and neither have I deleted data.

              Glee indeed. I'd love to hear your defense. I'm guessing it will be white as well. Got enough rope yet?
              Report Abuse
              • Author by fantagor (November 24, 2011 1:45 am ET)
                9 3
                Call us when you denial dips have an actual peer reviewed paper that can pass scientific muster.

                Till then, this is all a tempest in a Tea Bagger pot.


                Randy
                Report Abuse
              • Author by aBeck in 10-O-C (November 24, 2011 4:20 am ET)
                15 4
                Beck, you can try to SHOUT to the heavens that the whitewash inquiries "exonerated" the scientists and their science, but could you please then direct me to where any of the inquiries actually assessed the validity of the science?


                You are posing two distinctly separate lines of inquiry here. 1) concerns the accused scientists professional conduct, and 2) the scientific validity of their data and conclusions.

                On the first, you are simply dismissing no fewer than nine exculpatory international investigations as mere "whitewashes" or criminal conspiracies of subterfuge in the broad daylight of a sentient global scientific community.

                This is the stuff of a wild-eyed conspiracy theory that, according to psychological and sociological studies of a prototypical Conspiracy Theory phenomenon, is virtual immune to any and all opposing arguments from any quarter. You are obviously trapped in such a vortex of specific ignorance that you choose to compress your world view into a compartmentalized belief system authored by the untested opinions and hypotheses of a virtual handful of other authoritarian egos.

                On the second point, I am providing two examples that relegate "assessment of the validity of science" back to the peer review process and the science community where you and I know it belongs in the first place:

                According to the official Report of the International Panel set up by the University of East Anglia to examine the research of the Climatic Research Unit.and allegations against Dr. Phil Jones:
                "The Panel was not concerned with the question of whether the conclusions of the published research were correct. Rather it was asked to come to a view on the integrity of the Unit's research and whether as far as could be determined the conclusions represented an honest and scientifically justified interpretation of the data."


                And from the official Final Investigation Report Involving Dr. Michael E, Mann
                The Pennsylvania State University June 4, 2010

                "The Investigatory Committee's charge is to determine whether or not Dr. Michael Mann engaged in, or participated in, directly or indirectly, any actions that seriously deviated from accepted practices within the academic community for proposing, conducting, or reporting research or other scholarly activities."

                The most comprehensive inquiry was the Independent Climate Change Email Review led by Sir Muir Russell, who said at its conclusion
                "I believe this has given authority to our conclusions, and should stop in their tracks those who have made up their minds that this is a whitewash, without waiting to see what we have done.
                So what have we concluded?
                Climate science is a matter of such global importance, that the highest standards of honesty, rigour and openness are needed in its conduct. On the specific allegations made against the behaviour of CRU scientists, we find that their rigour and honesty as scientists are not in doubt."
                And later he noted:
                "...(H)ow is science to be conducted in a new world of openness,accountability and indeed what I might term citizen involvement in public interest science?
                There need to be new ways of making results and data
                available, and we mention some aspects of current thought. There need to be ways of handling criticism and challenge, of responding to a range of different sorts of criticism and getting into a more productive relationship with critics than we have sometimes seen in this case."

                Muir bespeaks the integrity and sensitivity to their public trust that you would deny him and every professional in the academic, scientific, and public service communities. To YOU they are all just tools of the greatest coordinated global conspiracy in human history.
                And you wonder why we laugh at you?




                The argument that Climategate emails reveal an international climate science conspiracy is not really a very skeptical one. It is skeptical in the weak sense of questioning authority, but it stops there. Unlike true skepticism, it doesn't go on to objectively examine all the evidence and draw a conclusion based on that evidence. Instead, it cherry-picks suggestive emails, seeing everything as incontrovertible evidence of a conspiracy, and concludes all of mainstream climate science is guilty by association. This is not skepticism; this is conspiracy theory

                In reality, Climategate has not thrown any legitimate doubt on CRU's results, let alone the conclusions of the entire climate science community. The entire work of CRU comprises only a small part of the evidence for AGW. There are all sorts of lines of evidence for global warming, and for a human influence on climate, which in no way depend on the behaviour of the CRU scientists

                But this reality doesn't fit into the narrative that you contrarians would like to tell: that AGW is a house of cards that is falling down. It is very difficult to attack all of these diverse lines of evidence for global warming. Instead they tend to focus on some of the better publicized ones and try to associate them with a few individuals, making a much easier target. Yet while contrarians have been nosing around in scientists' emails, the actual science has, if anything, become more concerning. Many major studies during 2009 and 2010 found things may be worse than previously thought.

                Far from exposing a global warming fraud, "Climategate" merely exposed the depths to which deniers are willing to sink in their attempts to manufacture doubt about AGW. They cannot win the argument on scientific grounds, so now they are trying to discredit researchers themselves. Climategate was a fake scandal from beginning to end, and the media swallowed it hook, line, and sinker. The real scandal is the attacks on climate science which have done untold damage to the reputation of the scientists involved, public trust in science, and the prospects of mitigating future warming.


                Go ahead and think that Climategate 2.0 will be a repeat of the first salvo of emails in 2009. It is your mission, not mine.

                BTW, since you are fascinated with interpretations of out-of-context quotes; have a go with this one from YOUR community in 1998:

                "Unless "climate change" becomes a non-issue, meaning that the Kyoto proposal is defeated and there are no further initiatives to thwart the threat of climate change, there may be no moment when we can declare victory for our efforts. It will be necessary to establish measurements for the science effort to track progress toward achieving the goal and strategic success."




                Report Abuse
                • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 2:42 am ET)
                  3 11
                  Well, since I am "virtual immune to any and all opposing arguments from any quarter" I'm surprised you would take the time to post a 1,000-word reply that attempts to convince me. In my "vortex of specific ignorance" I get a bit dizzy, so, while I appreciate the free psychoanalysis, I'm afraid you yourself may have succumbed to the whims of more than a handful of authoritarian egos.

                  So let's take your defense of the first line of inquiry, the accused scientists' professional conduct. I notice you sidestep the issue with appeals to authority. Now why is that? Care to speak to the contents of the new Jones email? Or is your defense to simply quote from the whitewashes? "Their rigour and honesty as scientists" is indeed in doubt, or do you deny that this alleged FOI obstruction is abhorrent? You can go down conspiracy alley all you want, but I prefer to focus on the tangible. Thanks though for the charade. It does help me to prove my point.

                  As for the second line of inquiry, you may not have realized it but you prove my point, even with a direct quote:

                  The Panel was not concerned with the question of whether the conclusions of the published research were correct.

                  Darn straight! None of the inquiries did. Again I ask, why is that? Remember, I asked "could you please direct me to where any of the inquiries actually assessed the validity of the science?" You could not. The A in AGW is not settled. Nowhere close.

                  Since you claim that there are "all sorts of lines of evidence for global warming" (I assume you mean of the anthropogenic sort) then you should have no problem validating the theory for us. Causation, not correlation. And you know, at least I hope, that the feedback issue is also nowhere near settled, so where exactly does "robust" and "unequivocal" even enter the equation? In the minds of misguided activists and propagandists is where.

                  Rather than "all sorts" of evidence in support, there is, were you to assess the science from an unbiased perspective, far more evidence that natural variability is the main driver of temperature. As for feedback, despite Trenberth protests, the sign looks to be negative.

                  So where oh where, aside from their "robust" models, have activist scientists shown us that large CO2 fingerprint? Certainly not in the empirical data. And since the heating effect of CO2 is logarithmic, without the "runaway" positive feedback models predict there is nothing.

                  The manufactured consensus has gotten us nowhere because enough people realize that the emperor has no clothes. Once you accept this naked reality and shun post-normal pseudo-science, we can move forward. You can claim that Climategates 1 and 2 are "fake scandals" but you would again be wrong. The scandal resides squarely at the feet of those who tried to eliminate dissent and minimize admissions of uncertainty.

                  I do find it funny that you also go the "out-of-context" route. I think it is pretty telling that in my one post where I expand upon my initial excerpt and offer the entire quote you hadn't a word to say. It's in context, no? So why the crickets? As for your quote, I am well aware of its source. You should read it again. You'd learn a thing or two because in many of their statements they are spot on. Here are a few you'll like:

                  As the climate change debate has evolved, those who oppose action have argued mainly that signing such a treaty will place the U.S. at a competitive disadvantage with most other nations, and will be extremely expensive to implement. Much of the cost will be borne by American consumers who will pay higher prices for most energy and transportation.

                  Check. I think the term is "skyrocket."

                  The advocates of global warming have been successful on the basis of skillfully misrepresenting the science and the extent of agreement on the science, while industry and its partners ceded the science and fought on the economic issues. Yet if we can show that science does not support the Kyoto treaty - which most true climate scientists believe to be the case - this puts the United States in a stronger moral position and frees its negotiators from the need to make concessions as a defense against perceived selfish economic concerns.

                  Check...please.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by Johaely (November 25, 2011 9:25 am ET)
                    8 3
                    You talk about appeal to authority, yet you yourself not only use it but also include ad hominem everywhere, poisoning the well (the simple fact that you call the exoneration "white washes" is proof enough), complete non sequiters and to top it off an overbearing amount of "information".
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by aBeck in 10-O-C (November 25, 2011 12:06 pm ET)
                      8 3
                      I note that he has been very active posting a large number of bullet points for discussion on a wide range of topics.
                      Some constructive criticism: this gives the impression that he is not really interested in the answers, because very few people would be able to hold a worthwhile discussion on so many topics simultaneously. I would advise in future that he stick to a small number of topics at any one time so that he can have the in-depth discussion that obnoxiously demands.
                      However, he obviously wants no part of that!
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 12:17 pm ET)
                        3 8
                        Thanks for the advice and your clarification to Jo below. I wouldn't let Anti see you asking for us to have more "in-depth discussion." I feel he's had his share. Cheers!
                        Report Abuse
                    • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 12:15 pm ET)
                      3 8
                      "white washes"

                      If the shoe fits...
                      Report Abuse
                  • Author by Johaely (November 25, 2011 9:28 am ET)
                    10 3

                    Darn straight! None of the inquiries did. Again I ask, why is that? Remember, I asked "could you please direct me to where any of the inquiries actually assessed the validity of the science?" You could not. The A in AGW is not settled. Nowhere close.


                    Because the concern of the stolen emails was one of corruption. They were not addressing the science but the ethics of the scientists involved in those emails. You seem to go around with the belief that the whole of climate science is based on their research.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 12:22 pm ET)
                      3 7
                      It helps when you do some homework before you post. "They were not addressing the science" but apparently you didn't know about this. The headline says it all, but this should help:

                      We were told very clearly both by press releases and by Acton when he came [before the committee] that this was going to be an investigation into the science.

                      Cheers!
                      Report Abuse
                  • Author by Johaely (November 25, 2011 9:37 am ET)
                    10 2
                    Also i find it so unbelievable funny that not only do you use an unsourced memo, you use one funded and made by Exxon and the API, in 1998.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by aBeck in 10-O-C (November 25, 2011 11:38 am ET)
                      10 2
                      Actually, it was I who first referenced the unsourced memo. He "seemed" to recognize it and quoted it further.
                      But I find it instructive that he missed the contextual irony of my citation from it.

                      This was a detailed memo describing a well-funded campaign disingenuously claiming that its mission was to interject some balance into the Climate debate by raising the public profile of the "uncertainties" of the climate science.

                      But the memo specifically described "victory" as the point at which climate change becomes a "non-issue" and when all "further initiatives to thwart the threat of climate change" have ceased.

                      Their benchmark for success would not be when reason and policy reflect any degree of reality, but when the entire concept of climate change is dead and buried!
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 12:27 pm ET)
                        2 8
                        Thanks aBeck. He seems to have a bit of an issue with that. Again Jo, please do something about this poor reading comprehension you possess. See where he says "have a go with this one from YOUR community in 1998"? And that's precisely what I did (though they aren't exactly neighbors), hence the additional quite accurate quotes. Slow down a gear there Jo. It might assist you in avoiding such easily avoidable errors in the future.

                        As for you Beck, I didn't miss a thing. The "contextual irony" you are apparently missing is that the quotes I added are absolutely correct in their content. Hence, AGW becoming a "non-issue" would indeed be a victory.
                        Report Abuse
          • Author by CoolSlaw (November 23, 2011 12:15 pm ET)
            11 2
            Welcome to wonderful world of science, rookie, where scientists discuss ideas in an open fashion sans conspiracies.


            This is the problem with living in the age of post Limbaugh/Fox conservative media gotcha journalism.

            "galileonardo" is only interested in finding an example of words in the right or wrong order so he can call a gotcha.

            Certainly he has no interest in looking at published findings, data, evaluation methods, correlating data from others, or even looking at the particular journal entry he's become suddenly excited about in the greater context of the study.

            When trying to convince uninformed and incurious people, this gotcha method has proven dangerously effective. However, it does virtually nothing to prove or disprove scientific findings which are based on data collection and experimentation, and not parsing through cherry picked statements to create the illusion of nefarious intent.

            All scientists express their reservations, excitement, and general thoughts on projects they are a part of. They aren't partisan agents like so much of the media has become, and so "galileonardo's" attempt at a gotcha falls flat.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by HeeNow (November 23, 2011 5:16 pm ET)
              3 15

              Of course global warming is real, and has been for 11,000 years. Otherwise, there would still be a two-mile high wall of ice where the Ohio River is now. What's unproven is humans having anything to do with it.

              Just look at this recent mastodon story and you'll see that "scientifically proven peer-reviewed facts" even though long-lived, can be disproven by one person:

              http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2016652520_mastodon31m.html

              Edwin Hubble did the same thing less than 100 years ago, and was also roundly ridiculed by his peers. I don't see any of their names on the greatest telescope ever built.

              And there is an agenda. Many governments, including the U.S., have concluded that climate change is man-made. Where do you think these "climate scientists" get their grants (hint: follow the money)?

              Today there's talk about Einstein's take on the speed of light not being the absolute limit. But they sure aren't using words like "settled".

              Keep the studies going, but don't call interim results "facts". Science never ends, and it's never "settled". Every scientist should be a skeptic without fear of ridicule, and you members of the MMfA choir should be as well.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by kabniel (November 23, 2011 5:43 pm ET)
                10 2
                Hee

                The spewed talking point you were programmed with by the deniers who are NOT doing the science but running a PR campaign. Why is it the right was willing to go to war in Iraq based on a small possibility that they had WMD but an overwhelming scientific consensus isnt enough to take action on Global Climate Change? There are about a thousand peer reviewed studies documenting the human driven warming trend. We cannot SETTLE the gravity question either since we cannot find the exchange particle. Feel free to jump off a very high building because it isnt settled science
                Report Abuse
                • Author by HeeNow (November 23, 2011 7:05 pm ET)
                  2 12
                  Jumping off the high building is exactly what you're advocating. You can't fix everything by throwing money at it.

                  Or have you forgotten Solyndra already?
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by yoiksaway (November 23, 2011 9:01 pm ET)
                    9 2
                    You're right: we can't fix gravity by throwing money at it.

                    HeeNow, you're out of you're element.
                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by kabniel (November 25, 2011 12:30 am ET)
                    10 2
                    Hee

                    More talking points. Stupid ones at that. Solyndria was a good bet. They lost out when China flooded the market with cheap solar panels but they had better technology and a good business plan. Every investment doesnt pan out but the US EXPORTED close to 2 billion in green tech last year. That is exactly what we should be doing. It is a shame you are so stupid and so brainwashed.

                    Ignoring a coming disaster that more than 95% of the scientist in that field agree is coming is a LOT more like jumping off a high building than taking some action based on the best available scientific consensus. Keep being brainwashed. Keep ignoring the science and buying the PR campaign expressly meant to fool gullible useful idiots like you.
                    Report Abuse
                • Author by galileonardo (November 24, 2011 12:52 am ET)
                  2 10
                  The spewed talking point you were programmed with by the deniers who are NOT doing the science but running a PR campaign.

                  Hey, speaking of PR that gives me a great opportunity to reiterate and expand upon one of the quotes from my initial post (I was hoping you guys would dig a bit but I shoulda known better). It's from Schticky Mike to Eraser Phil:

                  I've personally stopped responding to these, they're going to get a few of these op-ed pieces out here and there, but the important thing is to make sure they're loosing the PR battle. That's what the site is about. By the way, Gavin did come up w/ the name!

                  Yep, they're talking about PRC, sorry RC. Who is "loosing" the PR battle anyway?

                  There are about a thousand peer reviewed studies documenting the human driven warming trend.

                  Maybe you can read some of these. 900 plus. Should last you a while. Cheers!
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by mary59 (November 24, 2011 9:06 pm ET)
                    8 3
                    lardo, I see you're proving that you're an avid re-cycler.
                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by kabniel (November 25, 2011 12:31 am ET)
                    8 2
                    galli

                    That is the problem with ignorant people like YOU. To you it is a PR campaign issue instead of a SCIENCE issue. You are pathetic
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 2:44 am ET)
                      2 10
                      Kabbage, I think you're mistaken. That wasn't me talking. It was Mikey. He's the one that said RC is PR. Glad to clarify.
                      Report Abuse
              • Author by Johaely (November 23, 2011 7:31 pm ET)
                10 2
                Why would scientists be wasting their time trying to get grant money (which they have to use on their research and not for personal privileges) when they could just be industry tools? What money is there in government grants. That is, of course, if you base it on the assumption that EVERY SINGLE scientist works on government grants.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by Andy Kreiss (November 23, 2011 8:07 pm ET)
                  9 2
                  Wingnuts love that phrase "follow the money". They just always seem to be following it in the wrong direction.

                  Aside from the fact that the money in science is dwarfed by the rewards from the coal and oil industries waiting for Denier back-up, they never really get around to motive.

                  Aside from that phantom "Government Control", who is behind this science conspiracy, waiting to cash in ?

                  If all they can come up with is the wingnut default, "Government Control", what are the specifics? Who benefits, how and when do they benefit ?

                  The Denial Cult script wouldn't make a second rate TV cop show.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by Johaely (November 23, 2011 8:25 pm ET)
                    8 2
                    That's what's so special about that line of thought. The people who repeat it don't seem to realize that there really is no money in working for government. Most people don't go into the public sector because of the paycheck.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by galileonardo (November 24, 2011 12:59 am ET)
                      2 11
                      Jo, yer living in the past. No surprise there. Cheers!
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by Johaely (November 24, 2011 1:08 am ET)
                        9 2
                        Science grants are not "Federal Pay". Most scientists work for colleges or labs, which themselves don't pay so much. The grant money is supposed to fund the research not a check they can cash in. If it were used for private purposes, the scandal would completely disgrace the scientist. If they wanted money, they could just work for private industry, developing PR science.

                        Also your little list does not include scientists (with the exception of chemists).
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by HeeNow (November 24, 2011 3:53 am ET)
                          2 12
                          I can tell nobody here is a scientist working for a university. You have no idea.

                          My colleague is a PhD biomedical engineer (I'm a BSEE) working at the cellular level, not for himself, but for the UNIVERSITY! He spends more than half his time not teaching, not researching, but filling out grant requests. Who do these requests go to? Those wanting his outcomes to be in their interest, and 90% of the time, it's the government. He couldn't care less about their goals. He wants the UNIVERSITY TO RECEIVE THE MONEY SO HE CAN KEEP HIS JOB.

                          Obama campaigned on the climate change subject, even saying energy costs would necessarily skyrocket. Who are the "scientists" trying to dupe when they say they have no financial interest?

                          Their "job" is their financial interest. They are ants in a colony run by a sovereign whose mind isn't very big, but it is made up.
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by Johaely (November 24, 2011 4:12 am ET)
                            10 2
                            My colleague is a PhD biomedical engineer (I'm a BSEE) working at the cellular level, not for himself, but for the UNIVERSITY! He spends more than half his time not teaching, not researching, but filling out grant requests. Who do these requests go to? Those wanting his outcomes to be in their interest, and 90% of the time, it's the government. He couldn't care less about their goals. He wants the UNIVERSITY TO RECEIVE THE MONEY SO HE CAN KEEP HIS JOB.


                            The grant money is used to fund the overhead costs for research. The only way you can convince people to give you grants is to show them that what you are researching is worth their money. The money your friend is asking for is not going to his pocket.

                            Obama campaigned on the climate change subject, even saying energy costs would necessarily skyrocket. Who are the "scientists" trying to dupe when they say they have no financial interest?


                            The scientists are trying to "dupe" no one. Tell me, what direct benefit do they get on pushing something that is not real (according to you). They could just easily say "There is no human involvement in climate change" and move on to something different, yet they don't. Government and private interests fund any research as long as they can get benefit from it.
                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by Andy Kreiss (November 24, 2011 12:05 pm ET)
                              10 2
                              I have to say, that was pretty generous of you, Johaely. I understand that you didn't have any trouble dismantling Heehaw's fictional story, but still, to treat it seriously with a straight-faced post, that was nice.
                              Report Abuse
                            • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 4:39 am ET)
                              2 8
                              Again Jo, c'mon. He just told you. Biden's three-letter word: jobs! And jetsetting around the world to Gaia-saving conferences at tropical locales doesn't hurt. Your last paragraph is naive. It's called the gravy train Jo. People either hop on or get rolled. Needless to say, most hop on. We are talking about humans after all. Self-preservation is kinda key.
                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by Johaely (November 25, 2011 9:19 am ET)
                                7 2
                                So must that mean that the only reason any scientist researches anything or applies for grants is self-subsistence? You seem to define climate scientist as an extremely small group, considering you only use people like Mann as examples whenever you want to denigrate climate science.
                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 12:29 pm ET)
                                  2 8
                                  considering you only use people like Mann...

                                  In the case of Mann, he has a super-size head/ego so I suppose he is an example of a pretty rare specimen since he is essentially in a league of his own.
                                  Report Abuse
                              • Author by Johaely (November 25, 2011 10:06 am ET)
                                8 2
                                Like i said multiple times, grants ARE not pocket money. All of that money must be put to use in the research.
                                Report Abuse
                        • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 4:36 am ET)
                          2 8
                          Do you forget what you say that quickly?

                          The people who repeat it don't seem to realize that there really is no money in working for government.

                          To which I reply with a link to an article with the lead:

                          Federal employees earn higher average salaries than private-sector workers in more than eight out of 10 occupations, a USA TODAY analysis of federal data finds.

                          And that doesn't even speak to the benefits discrepancy. And your response? C'mon Jo. Get with the times. That meme is dead and buried. And your finale is quite funny. Err umm your little list, yeah, just chemists. As though the 36% difference for chemists wouldn't likely apply even remotely to say a physicist? The chart says "sampling" Jo. And did you catch the benefits line:

                          These salary figures do not include the value of health, pension and other benefits, which averaged $40,785 per federal employee in 2008 vs. $9,882 per private worker, according to the Bureau of Economic Analysis.

                          Yeah, no money. Sorry Jo. Our money. Next time you run into Hansen ask him if you can weigh his wallet.
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by Johaely (November 25, 2011 9:20 am ET)
                            7 3
                            You really hate Hansen and Mann, don't you?
                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 12:30 pm ET)
                              2 7
                              Well, hate is a strong word. Perhaps "not a big fan" would be more precise.
                              Report Abuse
                          • Author by Johaely (November 25, 2011 10:25 am ET)
                            8 3
                            You seemed to just have read the title and (like always) blocked what was inconvenient so i'll do some quote mining and show you things you definitively ignored:

                            But National Treasury Employees Union President Colleen Kelley says the comparison is faulty because it "compares apples and oranges." Federal accountants, for example, perform work that has more complexity and requires more skill than accounting work in the private sector, she says.

                            "When you look at the actual duties, you see that very few federal jobs align with those in the private sector," she says. She says federal employees are paid an average of 26% less than non-federal workers doing comparable work.

                            Office of Personnel Management spokeswoman Sedelta Verble, says higher pay also reflects the longevity and older age of federal workers.


                            •Private. The private sector paid more on average in a select group of high-skill occupations, including lawyers, veterinarians and airline pilots. The government's 5,200 computer research scientists made an average of $95,190, about $10,000 less than the average in the corporate world.

                            •State and local. State government employees had an average salary of $47,231 in 2008, about 5% less than comparable jobs in the private sector. City and county workers earned an average of $43,589, about 2% more than private workers in similar jobs. State and local workers have higher total compensation than private workers when the value of benefits is included.

                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 12:34 pm ET)
                              2 8
                              If I had a nickel for every time someone tried that one out. You know I read my sources. Your quote. Yes. A union prez. And you wonder why she was ignored? Speaking of which, how exactly is providing a link to the source "ignoring" anything? And I think you forgot to crop out the last line there in your mining expedition, that little nugget about benefits for state and local workers. Think with the 4-to-1 ratio for fed benefits I mentioned thrown in the mix that perhaps you and the union prez are blowing smoke? Cheers!
                              Report Abuse
                      • Author by kabniel (November 25, 2011 12:32 am ET)
                        6 2
                        galli

                        No he isnt. YOU are just a brainwashed moron
                        Report Abuse
                      • Author by Red XIV (November 25, 2011 10:48 am ET)
                        9 2
                        Except that's not true. In fact, federal employees make an average of 26% less than their private-sector counterparts.
                        Report Abuse
                  • Author by galileonardo (November 24, 2011 12:57 am ET)
                    2 10
                    Aside from that phantom "Government Control", who is behind this science conspiracy, waiting to cash in ?

                    Oh Anti, you and your conspiracies. How many times do I have to tell you a conspiracy implies secrecy? These dolts are proud of their control-freak agenda. Haven't you learned anything? Don't you remember Horsman? UNFCCC? Emissions Scenarios? Ida thunk sumpin woulda sunk in by now. Cheers!
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by Andy Kreiss (November 24, 2011 12:20 pm ET)
                      6 2
                      You can tell me as many times as you want to that conspiracy implies secrecy, Sir Links-a-Lot, and I'll still know that it only implies people plotting or planning, whether openly or in secret.

                      Does that get really frustrating, not having others handicap you by accepting your misunderstanding of words?

                      I stopped clicking on your links a long time ago, as I've told you, after wasting time on several that did nothing to support your arguments, but in the spirit of the holidays, I'll check out what you're packing here.

                      Horsman - goes to a Google sign-in page

                      UNFCC- goes to an MMFA thread from February '10, specifically you accusing people of imagining shadow governments at the same time you're pizzing your pants about some future non-shadow government ( sorry, not going to the additional pile of links you've dumped in that post, you're not really a reliable source)

                      Emissions scenarios - to a pdf that you can't seem to specify what you're trying to do with it.

                      I've told you before, gally, quality over quantity. If you actually believe this world-wide conspiracy of scientists is the by-product of "dolts" with a control-freak agenda, going to these extreme lengths out of some unspecified "pride", I won't try to stop you from believing that.

                      And, like I've told you before, I'm not 100% sure that you do believe this stuff, and are not just doing it as some sort of rhetorical exercise, but I'll take you at face value.

                      Just understand, that if you're serious, you're in need of some mental health intervention.

                      Have a nice Thanksgiving, let somebody else handle the carving, please.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by mary59 (November 24, 2011 4:39 pm ET)
                        9 3
                        Gallon o' lard is either a paid hack or an unpaid volunteer. In either case, it astounds me.

                        Why would anyone bother to put up post after post that knowledgeable folks debunk and make jokes about? There is surely better lines of work out there for someone as plodding as galley.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by Andy Kreiss (November 25, 2011 2:27 am ET)
                          8 2
                          I'm not sure if he's a true believer Denial Cultist, or just a bored guy seeing if he can get people to join in his long winded "debates". He's sort of like a brighter donutlover, always promising to come back later to school everybody, but just linking to more of the same crap.

                          I doubt he's a paid troll, good propaganda is a lot more concise. If I was paying somebody to win over people who aren't bright enough to see through the Cult stuff, I'd get somebody who could fit his BS on a bumper sticker.

                          I wonder why they don't just post their "A material" in the first place. I'll check back here in a day or two. Just like donuts, Gally likes to wait until a threads pretty stale to do his big finale.

                          Hope you had a great Thanksgiving, Mary.
                          Report Abuse
                        • Author by Andy Kreiss (November 25, 2011 2:31 am ET)
                          7 2
                          Oh yeah, Gally did give an excuse in case he didn't get back; the tryptophan, another bit of bunk science he probably has read thousands of pages on, but is still completely confused about.
                          Report Abuse
                        • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 2:47 am ET)
                          2 8
                          Hey, it's MareyIQ59. I picture you actually delivering this post, all Kerryesque and cardboard-like, like in a cue-card daze, void of personality. That's all. It makes me laugh.
                          Report Abuse
                      • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 4:04 am ET)
                        2 9
                        Well, I guess I'll have to try this bit by bit since I'm triggering the filter somehow. This will be my last try for tonight since I've tried four times now.

                        Here I am Anti and just a mere hour or so after you were spouting nonsense below. It's like we almost touched. Heartwarming. I guess it would take a Luddite such as yourself to point out the google groups link. I'll help you out. Paul Horsman to Mick Kelly of CRU:

                        Hi Mick,
                        It was good to see you again yesterday - if briefly. One particular thing you said - and we agreed - was about the IPCC reports and the broader climate negotiations were working to the globalisation agenda driven by organisations like the WTO. So my first question is do you have anything written or published, or know of anything particularly on this subject, which talks about this in more detail? My second question is that I am involved in a working group organising a climate justice summit in the Hague and I wondered if you had any contacts, ngos or individuals, with whom you have worked especially from the small island States or similar areas, who could be invited as a voice either to help on the working group and/or to invite to speak?
                        All the best,
                        Paul

                        Paul V. Horsman
                        Oil Campaigner
                        Greenpeace International Climate Campaign


                        Hope that helps...end PART 1

                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 4:05 am ET)
                          2 8
                          CONTINUED:

                          I do love your spin on the UNFCCC link. The irony is I almost linked directly to the negotiating text for COP15 but as you have admitted to being too lazy to read such reports, I figured it would be best, you know, with your short attention span and all, to go to the simplified synopsis since I had done the homework and interpretation for you. Since I think you mentioned something about quantity here are a few of my favorites from that gem:

                          Page 43: 41. [Providing financial support shall be additional to developed countries' ODA targets.] [Mandatory contributions from developed country Parties and other developed Parties included in Annex II should form the core revenue stream for meeting the cost of adaptation in conjunction with additional sources including share of proceeds from flexible mechanisms.] [This finance should come from the payment of the adaptation debt by developed country Parties and be based principally on public-sector funding, while other alternative sources could be considered.] [[Sources of new and additional financial support for adaptation] [Financial resources of the "Convention Adaptation Fund"Â] [may] [shall] include:
                          (a) [Assessed contributions [of at least 0.7% of the annual GDP of developed country Parties] [from developed country Parties and other developed Parties included in Annex II to the Convention] [taking into account historical contribution to concentrations of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere];]
                          (b) [Auctioning of assigned amounts and/or emission allowances [from developed country Parties];]
                          (c) [Levies on CO2 emissions [from Annex-I Parties [in a position to do so]];]
                          (d) [Taxes on carbon-intensive products and services from Annex I Parties;]
                          (e) [[Levies on] [Shares of proceeds from measures to limit or reduce emissions from] international [aviation] and maritime transport;]
                          (f) Shares of proceeds on the clean development mechanism (CDM), [extension of shares of proceeds to] joint implementation and emissions trading;
                          (g) [Levies on international transactions [among Annex I Parties];]
                          (h) [Fines for non-compliance [of Annex I Parties and] with commitments of Annex I Parties and Parties with commitments inscribed in Annex B to the Kyoto Protocol (Annex B Parties);]
                          (i) [[Additional ODA] [ODA additional to ODA targets] provided through bilateral, regional and other multilateral channels (in accordance with Article 11.5 of the Convention).]

                          Page 122: 17. [[Developed [and developing] countries] [Developed and developing country Parties] [All Parties] [shall] [should]:] (a) Compensate for damage to the LDCs economy and also compensate for lost opportunities, resources, lives, land and dignity, as many will become environmental refugees; (b) Africa, in the context of environmental justice, should be equitably compensated for environmental, social and economic losses arising from the implementation of response measures.

                          Page 133: Alternative 1:
                          An assessed contribution from developed country Parties based on the principles of equity, common but differentiated responsibilities, respective capabilities, GDP, GDP per capita, the polluter pays principle historical responsibility of Annex I Parties, historical climate debt, including adaptation debt, amounting to [[0.5-1][0.8][2] per cent of gross national product] at least [0.5-1 per cent of GDP]].

                          Page 134: Option 3 Alternative 1: A uniform global levy of USD 2 per tonne of CO2 for all countries with per capita emissions higher than [1.5][2.0] tonnes of CO2; the LDCs shall be exempt. Alternative 2: Taxes on carbon-intensive products and services from Annex I Parties


                          End PART 2
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 4:07 am ET)
                            2 7
                            CONTINUED:

                            Now seriously Anti, I know you're the Miyagi here, but I want you to imagine someone sitting there reading our posts, and reading this above directly from the draft agreement on climate change mitigation from COP15, and now please discern whether your shadow-government speak is more persuasive than introducing the reader to terms such as "historical climate debt" and "uniform global levy" and "fines for non-compliance."

                            Let's help the audience out. I'm sure it's big but nonetheless, let's play Sherlock. You say this:

                            UNFCC- goes to an MMFA thread from February '10, specifically you accusing people of imagining shadow governments...

                            That is your characterization of my response to this where rumple says:

                            So, you are saying that there is some shadow government doing all these things? Because so far, I haven't seen any sort of worldwide agreement to do any of these things, and US is certainly not doing them.

                            Look them in the eye Anti. Imagine them. Seeing your spin vs. my facts. I have said it many times, but that's all you are. A spin doctor. This same exercise can be repeated with most of your responses. It might look good on screen, but really you are not of the mind to offer substance. Just spin.

                            End PART 3
                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 4:21 am ET)
                              2 7
                              CONTINUED:

                              I give up. Not sure what's going on with this, but I'm moving on.

                              End PART 4
                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 4:22 am ET)
                                2 7
                                CONTINUED:

                                Anyway, glad to see you are still offering nothing. Cheers! Oh, the third link. You should be familiar with it. I quote from it in the UNFCCC link. Did you miss them?

                                Massive income redistribution and presumably high taxation levels may adversely affect the economic efficiency and functioning of world markets.

                                Cities are compact and designed for public and non-motorized transport, with suburban developments tightly controlled. Strong incentives for low-input, low-impact agriculture, along with maintenance of large areas of wilderness, contribute to high food prices with much lower levels of meat consumption than those in A1.


                                Still looking them in the eye Anti? Nothing there eh? Keep telling yourself that cuz I'm sure that's how they see it. You have the SD debacle. I look them in the eye and offer them the truth. Americans are kinda into that freedom thing, and that whole sovereignty thing's kinda swell too. The authoritarian green police thing. Not so much. Good luck spreading your rotten message. It really does stink no matter how much lipstick you put on it. Happy holidays!
                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by mary59 (November 25, 2011 11:51 am ET)
                                  8 2
                                  Thanx for the cut and paste job. Yes, these e-mails show private thoughts about the process of presenting their paper. And? You somehow use that to try to debunk man made global climate change? All your posts have been debunked by people who have better cognitive ability. You have a lot of self importance, but your intellect is totally compromised by your arrogance.

                                  Somewhere, you should be asking yourself why you think playing the contrarian is satisfying, and why your position is the same position that all Luddites take whenever they're being called upon to change.

                                  The only authoritarian mind set in world politics is the one that imposes poverty on citizens because the oligarchs in charge want to accumulate all the resources for themselves.

                                  You can privately do all the correct environmental stuff you want but you're spreading poison with your free market fantasies.

                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 12:48 pm ET)
                                    2 8
                                    Yeah, somewhere Dell. Now this is extraordinary:

                                    The only authoritarian mind set in world politics is the one that imposes poverty on citizens because the oligarchs in charge want to accumulate all the resources for themselves.

                                    Unreal. You are a clueless hack and a useful idiot. Here's your refresher zealot:

                                    Here’s how the numbers break down for individuals in both Annex 1 countries (the 20% of the world with relative wealth) and Annex 2 countries (the 80% of the world that are relatively poor):

                                    2100 A1 Golden Economic Age (GEA)
                                    Annex 1 per capita income = $100,000
                                    Annex 2 per capita income = $70,000
                                    Average global per capita income = $76,000

                                    2100 B1 Sustainable Development (SD)
                                    Annex 1 per capita income = $60,000
                                    Annex 2 per capita income = $35,000
                                    Average global per capita income = $40,000

                                    So for all the Barts out there thinking they are trying to help the world’s poor and saying things like “it is not a workable strategy to tell the have-nots that they can’t have any more†and that it’s “morally wrong to not allow others what we allow ourselves,†you do just that with your supposedly good intentions by getting on board the economy-punishing, poverty-prolonging, global-taxation CO2 mitigation bandwagon. You would think with all of that redistribution planned the poor would fare better but they do not. Look at those figures again. The world’s poor will have a 2100 PCI of $35,000 under B1 vs. $70,000 under A1. So I ask you again Bart, does that qualify as “very disruptive to the global economy?â€


                                    You're a joke. And not a funny one either. The course you advocate is the one that imposes poverty dope. Hope you're proud Marey.
                                    Report Abuse
                                    • Author by mary59 (November 25, 2011 2:29 pm ET)
                                      10 2
                                      Actually, you reveal how bereft you are of intellect by your compulsive name calling in the text of every post.

                                      What your cut and paste concludes is stupid, really. Lifting people out of poverty isn't the goal of the oligarchs. Exploiting the non renewable resources of our earth only guarantees poverty now and in the future.

                                      You might study how much poverty lifting has occurred in say, Nigeria as a result of the oil oligarchs extracting it from that country as fast as they can.

                                      You are obviously annoyed, and that's amusing. But you're on the wrong side of history, and that isn't going to work in your favor no matter how much you post your little dribble "cheers"
                                      Report Abuse
                                      • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 4:02 pm ET)
                                        2 7
                                        Hey sunshine, I guess history will tell. Delly, care to share what the trend has been over the last few years? Tsk! Notice how you never back up your claims? Funny isn't it? Since you apparently aren't a fan of reality and the actual statistics of the groups/path to hell you promote (those are their numbers dolt so if you feel the conclusions are stupid you can blame your authoritarian heroes), I'll offer you more of them tasty nuggets:

                                        Pollution abatement efforts appear to increase with income, growing willingness to pay for a clean environment, and progress in the development of clean technology. Thus, as incomes rise, pollution should increase initially and later decline, a relationship often referred to as the “environmental Kuznets curve.â€

                                        [There is a] long-established negative correlation between fertility rates and per capita income. Clearly, richer countries uniformly have a relatively low fertility rate. Poorer countries, on average, have a higher fertility rate.

                                        Discussing A1 Golden Economic Age: The global economy expands at an average annual rate of about 3% to 2100, reaching around US$550 trillion (all dollar amounts herein are expressed in 1990 dollars, unless stated otherwise). This is approximately the same as average global growth since 1850, although the conditions that lead to this global growth in productivity and per capita incomes in the scenario are unparalleled in history.

                                        And a few of my own for good measure:

                                        Prolonged poverty is an absolute death sentence for millions. Poverty currently kills about 18 million people per year in mostly the poor nations, and a majority of them are children. So for every year that economic growth is slowed you can be ensured that the poverty rate will be unforgivably elevated.

                                        I guess that’s why they screech so loudly against the prominent skeptics and even the ordinary skeptics like me. CO2 mitigation was their pot of gold, their path to Utopia, and the rainbow is disappearing.


                                        Tasty. You are on the side of the control freaks Mare. Good luck with that. Cheers!
                                        Report Abuse
                                        • Author by mary59 (November 25, 2011 4:27 pm ET)
                                          9 2
                                          Okay, you are really 98% certifiable. Thanks. Up is down--you think authoritarian ecologists are a threat, rather than the oil oligarchs.

                                          And such plodding along, dribbling drab cheer on multiple web sites with all the wrong-headed drool. Do you have a vendetta against some East Anglican professors? Is it personal?

                                          Hopefully you'll get some help. I do think you've got enough fertilizer online to open up a waste dump.
                                          Report Abuse
                                          • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 4:41 pm ET)
                                            2 8
                                            Notice again? No substance out of you. Those are their words Dell. So you're OK with them proposing to halve the world's wealth even though they also state that "pollution abatement efforts appear to increase with income"? Kinda counterintuitive, no? Should be perhaps a bit of an opening there in perhaps understanding what the agenda really is, eh? But not for you. Don't worry little sheep. I'm sure that all will be well for you. Cheers!
                                            Report Abuse
              • Author by Red XIV (November 25, 2011 10:44 am ET)
                6 2
                Nope, it's been conclusively shown that human activity is the only possible explanation for the current warming trend. All other possibilities have been examined and rejected as contrary to the evidence.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 12:53 pm ET)
                  2 8
                  Oh boy. The old "we can't figure it out so it has to be that" routine. Give it up. The uncertainties we are talking about are so large as to make that stance quite laughable, or are you under the impression that we have it all figured out? As I mentioned to Crash, look up CLOUD for a recent example. Plenty more where that comes from too. The AGW theory weakens weekly. Ta!
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by mary59 (November 25, 2011 2:48 pm ET)
                    5 2
                    Please don't be coy, lard bucket.
                    In your humble little way, do tell us all the policies you'd like to implement once the AGW theory goes away.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 4:07 pm ET)
                      2 8
                      The first one would be to ban anyone who advertises their 59 or lower IQ from posting vacuous statements...yeah...about that Delly...
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by mary59 (November 25, 2011 4:29 pm ET)
                        8 2
                        So, you don't have any policies, just deflection and name calling.

                        Thanks for the info.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 4:44 pm ET)
                          2 8
                          Yeah. Learn to read. Visit the post again. It's called A1 Golden Economic Age. You and your ilk are stuck in B1 Sustainable Development depravity. Like I said, we'll see the path history chooses. Keep on bleating, but I can almost guarantee you'll lose. Cheers!
                          Report Abuse
              • Author by RavenRog (November 25, 2011 3:41 pm ET)
                3 9
                Sorry, HeeNow...they aren't listening. They'll never realize how pathetically taken they are by this fake science. You get your thumbs-down for being a "flat-earther" and they just move along to the next echo-chamber comment.

                When the Anti-American, socialist beaurocrats actually start to put some pressure on China and India (you know, people that often wear surgical masks when walking to work) to curb their emissions, they'll never have any credibility. This movement has long ago ceased to be an environmental movement.

                But they won't ever get it. Ever. So stop trying....
                Report Abuse
            • Author by galileonardo (November 24, 2011 12:33 am ET)
              2 11
              Hah! You guys are hi-larious. Cool, I have read thousands of pages of published findings. Have you? I doubt it. I'm guessing you're just another uninformed parrot. And I knew someone would have to go the "context" route. At least you're not alone. Utterly predictable. Try again.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by fantagor (November 24, 2011 1:51 am ET)
                8 2
                You don't read, you run word searches looking for hot button fragments of thought you can decontextualize then pretend to have proved something.

                Still waiting for a denier paper that can pass muster. Hasn't happened, because it's not science but shilling for industrialists with deep pockets who pay for a preconceived conclusion. Scientific grants are given to conduct science, REGARDLESS of the outcome. That's the difference. Nobody gets a grant to prove climate change is real and/or anthropogenic but to see if X is affected by Y, and wherever that leads a scientist, he reports the findings.

                No one is pulling their strings from a corporate board room.


                Randy
                Report Abuse
                • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 4:43 am ET)
                  2 10
                  The lady doth protest too much, methinks. Did you miss this? Muster-y enough for you? And what about this rand? You managed to reply to posts not addressed to you, why not the one that was, eh rook?
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by Red XIV (November 25, 2011 10:51 am ET)
                    8 2
                    A blog claiming there are hundreds of peer-reviewed papers disputing AGW doesn't make it true. The fact is, those papers don't say what you claim they do.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 12:54 pm ET)
                      2 9
                      As if you'd read any of them to be able to back up your claims.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by mary59 (November 25, 2011 3:50 pm ET)
                        7 2
                        We don't know if you've read hundreds of peer-reviewed papers disputing AGW,

                        but we do know you don't understand the peer-reviewed papers that overwhelmingly accept that the climate is changing faster, because of human activity.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 4:09 pm ET)
                          2 8
                          I'm just shocked you know how to read after your performance on this thread Dully.
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by mary59 (November 25, 2011 4:30 pm ET)
                            8 2
                            You're not really trying now.
                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 4:45 pm ET)
                              2 8
                              Yeah, I suppose I've had my share of you Dell. Why bother at this point. As I just noted, research A1 Golden Economic Age. It'll do your heart good.
                              Report Abuse
              • Author by Andy Kreiss (November 24, 2011 12:25 pm ET)
                9 2
                ps: I forgot, Gally, I did get one thing wrong. I mistakenly said that you were regressing by going with the "climategate" thing. I was thinking that you were one of the Denial Cultists who saw himself as above the "Snow in Winter" and "Climategate" clowns.

                But then I got a chance to check your "again" link in your first post. Not only did you go for "climategate" hook, line and sinker when it was fresh, you're reminding everybody ( with great pride, apparently) that you're going for the stale, shriveled , debunked, rotting carcass of that propaganda, just as hungrily as you went for it right out of the oven.

                I apologize for my error.
                Report Abuse
          • Author by galileonardo (November 24, 2011 12:14 am ET)
            2 12
            gorefantasy, although your BOLD projection is embarrassing for us all, apparent rookies such as yourself would be well advised to at least do some legwork before putting the appendage at the end of said leg in one's mouth. Please do practice due diligence when attempting to chastise someone for their grasp of the science. Rather than wallow in conjecture as you do with your funny translation, I prefer actual evidence. Had you investigated the matter and actually chosen to gather evidence, you would realize your folly.

            The screeching reaction here by the AGW cultists to my post proves I have plenty idea what this all means. Alas you're late to the party or else you wouldn't level such claims. Before taking "the last line" to task let's touch base with one of your first gems:

            [O]ne email does not make or break a scientific theory anymore than one paper.

            Tell that to the MBH98 All-Stars. Until that trio came along with their one Schtick paper the consensus opinion was an MWP and RWP that were both warmer than present. But presto, the MWP goes away. Or as stated in this latest batch of emails, "it will be very difficult to make the MWP go away in Greenland." Indeed. Now why did they feel the need to make the MWP "go away?" I digress. Were you to have actually looked for the source of "the last line" rather than ASSUME you knew how to translate it, you would have found this:

            I was always under the impression that, in general, solar changes controlled long term changes in climate and volcanic events caused short term cooling. I am surprised when you say that volcanic forcing dominates the models - this seems at odds to papers by Lean and Rind etc. The 1257/59 volcanic event has an obvious effect in the model - yet the recovery is quick - i.e. no effect on the long term trend of the model output. I guess 'clusters' of volcanic events could cause a longer term response of the climate system. How are the relative weightings of the external forcing estimated in the models? Although I agree that GHGs are important in the 19th/20th century (especially since the 1970s), if the weighting of solar forcing was stronger in the models, surely this would diminish the significance of GHGs. Jeez - I sound like a sceptic - this is not my intension. I guess, ultimately, what troubles me is that of the myriad of NH recons out there now, they generally show a MWP that is NOT as warm as the late 20th century. I have no trouble with this - however, the solar activity of the MWP (excluding the Oort minimum) is also generally not as high as the recent period. I know correlation does not mean causation, but it seems to me that by weighting the solar irradiance more strongly in the models, then much of the 19th to mid 20th century warming can be explained from the sun alone. again, am I being overtly simplistic?

            Set bait. Hook the AGW guppies. Like shooting fish in a barrel really. Know why? Because for all of the AGW fanatics such as yourself who routinely try to prop up the precious theory and claim skeptics are ignorant, you almost exclusively do so with no ammo. You guys never back it up. Just more hand waving and name calling from your hollow ivory tower of cards. No substance whatsoever. Evidence rules dear friend. Failed models do not. Welcome to the wonderful world of science, rook. Keep on cawing. Cheers!
            Report Abuse
        • Author by kabniel (November 23, 2011 5:29 am ET)
          11 3
          You are stupid galli

          I've been reading your pitiful propaganda for a while now and its just plain stupid. These E-mails have been around for two years and the right has been lying about them for two years but you are so stupid and so brainwashed you just keep believing the next round of lies.

          This issue is simple. The scientists are DOING THE SCIENCE, getting their studies and papers published in peer reviewed articles and the deniers are running a PR campaign just effective enough to fool brainwashed morons like you.

          The Solar orbiting observatory has been in orbit for decades, Stanford studies its output EVERY DAY and we know EXACTLY how much warming the Sun is adding. That you WISH we could ignore the evidence and game the stats to show what you WISH is true just proves you are an idiot.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by galileonardo (November 24, 2011 1:13 am ET)
            2 11
            kabdriver, just plain stupid is not using an apostrophe in the "it's" contraction, but that's (see how that works) beside the point. See, your response is a perfect example of the silliness coming out of the ivory tower of cards. Your claims of omniscience are truly laughable and proof of your projection my brainwashed friend. You have heard terms and phrases like "consensus" and "incontrovertible" and "the science is settled" so many times that you don't even realize your AGW zombie status. You're in the haze. Just plain stupid? Here's a quote that I know Anti enjoys. Hope you like it too:

            On the whole, the most scientifically literate and numerate subjects were slightly less likely, not more, to see climate change as a serious threat than the least scientifically literate and numerate ones.

            Maybe you're so very smart you can track down the source. As for knowing EXACTLY how much warming the Sun is adding, that's a bad joke but no surprise, you know, the science being settled and all. Speaking of gaming the stats, have you seen this one?

            I am afraid that Mike is defending something that increasingly can not be defended. He is investing too much personal stuff in this and not letting the science move ahead.

            I'll leave you with Old Faithful. Seems apropos.

            How come you do not agree with a statement that says we are no where close to knowing where energy is going or whether clouds are changing to make the planet brighter. We are not close to balancing the energy budget. The fact that we can not account for what is happening in the climate system makes any consideration of geoengineering quite hopeless as we will never be able to tell if it is successful or not! It is a travesty!

            Cheers!
            Report Abuse
            • Author by datruthfarmer (November 24, 2011 2:29 pm ET)
              8 2
              Gee, g,

              Are you really concerned about the evidence of corruption in Climate Science, and promoting a scientific review?

              When you under stand the difference between the peer review process and the concern for evidence of corruption in Climate Science, you will find the difference between fact and opinion.

              Riddle me this Batty men, where are all of the scientists who got rich from Grant money located?

              Petty drivel is what your stories attempt to promote; this explains why you come here to distort accuracy in media.

              Your links and targeted emails are nothing but a big straw man argument that denies the very basic laws of Math, Physics and Chemistry.

              As we know it today, these laws go unchanged regardless of how much money is in the budget.

              Here is the Math

              The Chemistry

              The Physics:

              For each gallon of gasoline burned 19.4 pounds of carbon dioxide (CO2) is produced as a byproduct, for diesel it is 22.4 pounds; do not forget coal and natural gas as well, they are about the same.

              More than 7.0 X 10^10 pounds of CO2 is produced each day, and has been for many years. The atmosphere has a mass of about 1.1 X 10^19 lbs, three quarters of which is within about 11 km of the surface.

              For the record, dry air contains roughly (by volume) 78.09% nitrogen, 20.95% oxygen, 0.93% argon, 0.039% carbon dioxide, and small amounts of other gases. Air also contains a variable amount of water vapor, on average around 1% normally.

              This would add up to 4.20 X 10^15 lbs of CO2 in the atmosphere. Math being what it is allows us to add these figures together to determine that in the last 100 years we have added more than 2.5 X 10^15 lbs of CO2 to the atmosphere.

              Where do all of molecules go that were changed from a liquid state to a gaseous state? This is a simple chemical equation question, which is nothing like the chemical equation for the "meds" that should be given to anybody who seriously doubts what is happening in the world climate.

              Here are some known facts:

              Carbon Dioxide and water vapor are both polyatomic molecules that absorb heat, which combine as part of the Feed Back Loop.

              While it is difficult to specify an exact atmospheric lifetime for CO2, the accepted values range around 100 years.

              A relative humidity of 100% and a temperature of 38 C (100 F) would have a heat index of 91 C (196 F). An increase of 3 C to 41 C (106 F) would yield a heat index of 112 C (234 F).

              With air temperatures at this level, it is nearly impossible for life to persist for a long period of time and heat indexes have never been reached at this level. We could see these numbers in some areas of the world soon.

              Why do you want to wait until we cannot do something to do something?

              Figures for anybody to check:

              Approximately 31.7 % of total daily world wide fuel consumption is gasoline.

              The world uses about,

              82,532,000 Barrels/day X 42 gallon/Barrels X 19.4 pounds/CO2
              = 67,247,073,600 pounds CO2/day

              FNC and the Right could be champions for the undeniable fact that climate change is a reality; instead they cash the checks and continue to defend the Big Business billionaires who are seeking more profit at the expense of all of our children.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 4:49 am ET)
                2 10
                Yes farmer, I talk about your "Feed Back Loop" upthread. I'm not really sure of the relevance of most of your links but for all of your effort you still neglected to address the A in AGW. Please compute for us two things with empirical data: the measured effect of anthropogenic CO2 on temperature and water vapour's sign (+/-). Make that three things. Also share with us what the effect on temperature would be if this instant all ACO2 stopped cold turkey.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by Johaely (November 25, 2011 10:04 am ET)
                  10 2
                  Yes farmer, I talk about your "Feed Back Loop" upthread. I'm not really sure of the relevance of most of your links but for all of your effort you still neglected to address the A in AGW. Please compute for us two things with empirical data: the measured effect of anthropogenic CO2 on temperature and water vapour's sign (+/-). Make that three things.


                  "This would add up to 4.20 X 10^15 lbs of CO2 in the atmosphere. Math being what it is allows us to add these figures together to determine that in the last 100 years we have added more than 2.5 X 10^15 lbs of CO2 to the atmosphere."

                  That's the A in AGW.

                  Also share with us what the effect on temperature would be if this instant all ACO2 stopped cold turkey.


                  If CO2 was REDUCED to a manageable level (the problem is not human-originated CO@, but excessive), the global temperature is assumed to return to a more stable and natural level overtime .
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 1:04 pm ET)
                    2 8
                    I'm guessing you don't even realize you're not even in the same arena, never mind the same stage, in this debate. You reiterate his math, but also neglect to offer the measured effect of ACO2 on temperature. As for your pie-in-the-sky fantasy about returning to stable temps (Has it ever been stable Jo? if so, what exactly would the ideal be?), I guess you missed the memo from IPCC WG1 co-chair Susan Solomon:

                    It's essentially an irreversible change that will last for more than a thousand years.

                    Guess we'd be better off planning on adaptation rather than mitigation. I doubt we'll need either though. Perhaps we can return to addressing real environmental degradation now.
                    Report Abuse
                • Author by datruthfarmer (November 25, 2011 11:21 am ET)
                  10 2
                  And add this to what Johaely wrote:

                  The chemical reaction that occurs when we burn fossil fuels is changing the climate of the Earth, and denying it is happening will not make it stop.

                  Maybe you missed the part where CO2 is a polyatomic molecule and absorbs heat, as do water vapor molecules. Nitrogen, Oxygen and Argon do not absorb and transfer heat. The Sun shines on the Earth 24/7/365 bringing 5.5 X 1024 J of energy each year and we cannot shut if off for turn it down.

                  Here is the First Law of Thermodynamics: Energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed. The total amount of energy and matter in the Universe remains constant, merely changing from one form to another.

                  Do you remember when Lead (Pb) was added to gasoline? That Lead was found to be contaminating the entire environment and something had to be done, and guess what, we did.

                  Fact:

                  In 1979, cars released 94.6 million kilograms (kg; 1 kg equals 2.2 pounds) of lead into the air in the United States. In 1989, when the use of lead was limited but not banned, cars released only 2.2 million kg to the air.

                  We can do something if we work together.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 1:12 pm ET)
                    2 9
                    I guess you missed the part where I asked you to quantify the known and accepted effect. The empirical data. Not model projections. So what is it? Can you give me the numbers? Have they been able to discern just what the CO2 signature amounts to? Or does it get lost in the noise of the chaotic climate system? Further, where is the theory without the modeled water vapour driven positive feedback? I look forward to your edification.
                    Report Abuse
            • Author by kabniel (November 25, 2011 12:44 am ET)
              11 2
              galli

              No MORON it is being lazy to omit the apostrophe that shift key is WAY over there. Are you on medication? Are you going to DENY that there is a scientific consensus on this issue? I mean you are STUPID enough to but it is not in dispute that there is consensus on this issue.

              GOD but you are stupid. I could. I HAVE called Stanford before and talked to the head of their physics dept. I wanted to find out what was happening with the Suns magnetic field. He told me EXACTLY what the magnetic field of the Sun was the day before in microteslas.

              I dont CARE what a poll of nonscientists believe about this issue. I cant think of anything LESS relevant. I care what the scientists IN THE FIELD doing the science think.

              You are a punk. A very stupid and brainwashed punk who only cares about the PR. It doesnt bother you that you deniers are not DOING any science. Where are your peer reviewed studies? They donte exist now YOU are stupid but as a rational human it bothers me that those trying to debunk science arent doing science to do so.

              I always feel sad for someone as stupid as you who has fooled themselves into thinking they are really smart. It is the sort of delusion that leads you to make a fool out of yourself repeatedly as you constantly do on this site. You are stupid, you are brainwashed, you are pathetic and if you arent careful you always will be
              Report Abuse
              • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 4:54 am ET)
                2 9
                LOL! My, my, Kabbie. WAY over there isn't keeping you away for CAPS. Here's another from the poll you're apoplectic about that seems apropos:

                That implication—which naturally provokes resistance—is likely to be strengthened when communicators with a recognizable cultural identity stridently accuse those who disagree with them of lacking intelligence or integrity.

                Since you asked for it again, here you go again. I know Mare loves it. You two should get together. Cheers!
                Report Abuse
                • Author by mary59 (November 25, 2011 11:56 am ET)
                  9 2
                  This is relevant?

                  Again, you're in way over your head, and the odd thing is, you don't even recognize that you're making a fool out of yourself.

                  I'm sure that your posts get fawned over by other deniers on other web sites. However, posting irrelevant stuff and previously debunked stats, and cherry-picked quotes somehow doesn't dazzle this crowd.
                  Report Abuse
            • Author by kabniel (November 25, 2011 12:46 am ET)
              8 2
              galli

              By the way MORON dont think it escaped my attention that you didnt adress the points I made. You really are stupid
              Report Abuse
              • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 4:55 am ET)
                1 9
                I hadn't realized you made any Kabbage. Kidding aside, you are correct. I didn't "adress" your points. Perhaps "undress" would be more accurate. Cheers!
                Report Abuse
        • Author by ScienceBuff (November 23, 2011 9:03 am ET)
          12 2
          I love how you dismiss thorough reviews by several independent bodies of all of the emails that exonerate all of the parties involved as "hand waving." You're so emotionally wrapped up in reaching your desired conclusion that you're in total denial of reality.

          A consensus opinion of over 97% of active climate scientists carries more weight than a handful of cherry-picked out of context bits of emails. After seeing how dishonestly the first batch of quotes were used by a bunch of denialist liars, I have little reason to take any of the new batch at face value. I have even less reason to accept your spin on them.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by galileonardo (November 24, 2011 1:19 am ET)
            1 7
            Yes, exonerate. Of course. Bluff, maybe you can take the aBeck challenge about the whitewash inquiries. Jones before:

            I have previously confirmed that I have never knowingly deleted an email that was the subject of an active Freedom of Information request and neither have I deleted data.

            Jones after:

            With the earlier FOI requests re David Holland, I wasted a part of a day deleting numerous emails and exchanges with almost all the skeptics. So I have virtually nothing. I even deleted the email that I inadvertently sent. There might be some bits of pieces of paper, but I'm not wasting my time going through these.

            Oops. Think he'll be "exonerated" next time? What is the face value on that one Bluff? Two cents? And man have I not addressed the 97% meme enough already? C'mon now. That's your infamous "last word" thread you got all worked up in a lather about. 97% is a fallacy. Look up the facts dude. Seriously.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by ScienceBuff (November 24, 2011 10:42 pm ET)
              9 1
              Jones' hostility toward the large number of nuisance FOIA requests he received was well known. He readily admitted previous efforts to thwart them out of pure pique. The indication is that the deletions he made were in advance of the receipt of FOIA requests from Holland. He was also reprimanded for it. However, if the deletions preceded the receipt of the FOIA request there is no conflict between the two statements.

              Regardless, it would only deal with discussions back and forth between scientists. That is the only area in which the inquiries DID find fault. They felt harassed by constant nuisance requests and, for better or worse, engaged in the quite human tendency to push back. This was especially true of Jones who seems to be an exceptionally cantankerous old fart. However, the inquiries also found there was no dishonest tampering with any of the underlying data from which they drew their conclusions. Nothing has changed that.

              As for your "97% is a fallacy" claim, the case you make in your links is extremely weak. It doesn't refute the factual nature of the survey at all. A genuine refutation would involve some of those who were surveyed claiming that the survey results didn't accurately reflect their positions. This is what we saw in large numbers with the bogus surveys that claimed to show scientific skepticism toward ACC. We aren't seeing any of that with the 97% survey. Most of the case you tried to build boiled down to your level of personal credulity. I don't really give that much weight. And those are the facts I looked up, dude.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 5:04 am ET)
                1 9
                You are truly in denial Bluff. Spin it however you like. We'll see what the House of Commons has to say. The "factual nature of the survey"? Man the crux of my "extremely weak" investigation of the 97% meme was the "weakness" of the survey itself. Don't you recall the two questions?

                1. When compared with pre-1800s levels, do you think that mean global temperatures have generally risen, fallen, or remained relatively constant?
                2. Do you think human activity is a significant contributing factor in changing mean global temperatures?


                That's what you're hanging your hat on? Boiled down whatever. Look it up again. The 97% meme is as hollow and shallow as the theory itself. Cheers!
                Report Abuse
                • Author by Johaely (November 25, 2011 10:00 am ET)
                  7 1
                  What was that thing i said about considering yourself an expert and using yourself as a source?
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 1:15 pm ET)
                    1 6
                    Perhaps you can find a better one. Doubt it though. There I provide you with all you need. Follow the bread crumbs. You can see the original "study," the fallout, etc.
                    Report Abuse
                • Author by Red XIV (November 25, 2011 10:55 am ET)
                  7 1
                  That isn't the source of the 97% number, idiot. And you're hardly one to talk about being in denial.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 1:16 pm ET)
                    1 7
                    It would help if you had any idea what you are talking about fool. As noted to Jo above, follow the bread crumbs. Hope they don't give you a stomach ache.
                    Report Abuse
        • Author by wesley (November 23, 2011 10:03 am ET)
          1 11
          -- Have you guys read beyond MMfA's shallow indignation and nothing-to-see-here hand waving? -- leonardo

          Yep...and you're right on target and I enjoyed a good laugh as well. mmfa's incessant defense of the crumbling spectre of man-made global warming brings to mind Homer Stokes proclaiming, "It's twue, It's twue."

          And their sycophants? Julie Andrews sings a beautiful ballad about them:

          Just like a child, who, late from school walks bravely
          home through the park.

          To keep their spirits soaring and keep the night at bay.

          Neither quite knowing which way they are going, they sing
          the shadows away,

          Whistling away the dark.


          Happy Thanksgiving!

          Report Abuse
          • Author by danielsangeo (November 23, 2011 10:46 am ET)
            6 1
            The vast majority (like 97%) of scientists agree that man-made global warming is happening and study after study, including ones trying to discount it, agree:

            The climate is changing and man is the cause.

            If there is a "crumbling spectre" here, it is anthropogenic climate change denialism.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by wesley (November 23, 2011 10:58 am ET)
              1 6
              Whoa nelson...
              Report Abuse
              • Author by danielsangeo (November 23, 2011 11:01 am ET)
                7  
                I'm unclear over what this intended to prove beyond your rampant stupidity and complete ignorance about what they were even talking about.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by wesley (November 23, 2011 11:25 am ET)
                  1 7
                  daniel...sorry about your confusion.

                  This should help...it details how the IPCC and man-made global warming alarmists handle scientific data.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by danielsangeo (November 23, 2011 11:27 am ET)
                    6 1
                    I don't think I need to say anything more.
                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by Johaely (November 23, 2011 11:32 am ET)
                    6 1
                    A Shirley Ellis song? That is your damning proof? Can't any of you people actually ever use real science?
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by wesley (November 23, 2011 11:42 am ET)
                      1 9
                      OK jo...enough clowning around.

                      Here's what an EX-global warming alarmist had to say about listening to Al Gore and the IPCC phony-up the data.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by Old_Benjamin (November 23, 2011 3:39 pm ET)
                        5 1
                        The land of idiots continues its
                        marvelous trend of producing more retard opinions from halfwit talking heads.

                        I knew wes wouldn't disappoint!
                        Here's what an EX-global warming alarmist had to say about listening to Al Gore and the IPCC phony-up the data.

                        Report Abuse
                    • Author by CrashGordon (November 23, 2011 11:45 am ET)
                      7 1
                      Can't any of you people actually ever use real science?

                      No they can't. Because the science isn't on their side.

                      Anyone who hasn't watched this series, should see it. It deals with science and why climate change is backed by science, and why most attempts at denying climate change is not.

                      Part 1.

                      Beginning with episode three, it gets really entertaining. That's when he starts showing just dumb most of the denier's arguments are.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by galileonardo (November 24, 2011 1:28 am ET)
                        1 8
                        Actually, we've had this discussion before Crash. Remember now? It was the one where I used "real science" and actually dismembered a few of the pothole's parlor tricks. I routinely use "real science." AGW advocates routinely use post-normal activist pseudo-science, but not here. No, most AGW cultists here gain comfort from the evidence-free groupthinktank that poses as legitimate debate on the subject. I'll offer Anti's favorite again:

                        On the whole, the most scientifically literate and numerate subjects were slightly less likely, not more, to see climate change as a serious threat than the least scientifically literate and numerate ones.

                        Cheers!
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by Johaely (November 24, 2011 2:49 am ET)
                          8 1
                          I read your attempts at science (which were like always surrounded with insults and empty narcissistic bravado). I specially loved your last link, which not only did you include it with some passive-aggressive, cryptic message in the end, it puts up a great concern connected to CO2 and global warming (which you probably also deny or laugh as "alarmism"): Ocean Acidification. Hell the report ends with this line: “The bottom line is that we really need to bring down CO2 levels in the atmosphere.â€

                          Cue to paragraphs of empty mockery and some reference to cultism.
                          Report Abuse
                  • Author by kabniel (November 23, 2011 1:20 pm ET)
                    6 1
                    Wes

                    GOD but you are stupid. After that display nothing else really need be said
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by Andy Kreiss (November 23, 2011 2:10 pm ET)
                      8 1
                      Haw! Poor Gally, just as he tries to cling to the shred of credibility he believes he has here, he gets endorsed by Captain Fail.

                      Report Abuse
            • Author by galileonardo (November 24, 2011 1:21 am ET)
              1 7
              The vast majority (like 97%)...

              See above.
              Report Abuse
          • Author by CatsRBigLuv (November 23, 2011 11:15 am ET)
            9 1
            Well Wes, its no surprise that you would support Gals rather flimsy, hallucinatory attack on well established scientific material.

            Conservatives have developed this habit of working themselves into wild contortions (as well as building public policy) on carefully manufactured fantasies.

            Its a disturbing contrivance that your hard wired programming maintains even in the face of the most crucial evidence otherwise.

            Thats why we broke the national coffers on an unjust war that was never warranted, that killed millions, and that took us a decade away from hunting bin Laden.

            Thats why Citizens United gave corrupt corporations more power than your average american worker.

            Thats why the GOP (ESPECIALLY those hideous Tea PArty freshmen) held medical coverage for 9-11 First Responders as hostage to Tax Breaks for only the very wealthiest Americans (and the country DOES remember that, btw.)

            Thats also why your party is chasing away its most qualified talent (eg, Mike Lofgren,) and thats why the rest of the country is seeing you for the deranged, brainwashed pack of lunatic fanatics that you truly are.

            Again, John Hunstman is right... you cant run away from science. I dont know why you make such an effort to do so.

            Why you have chosen politically charged delusion and superstition over a truth that effects you as much as any of your neighbors, is beyond me.

            Maybe the whole GOP party got that vaccination which Bachmann claims to cause mental retardation. I guess you folks are better off at your pox parties.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by galileonardo (November 24, 2011 1:36 am ET)
              1 9
              Wow, at least you didn't expose your leanings there. Funny how intolerant some of you folks are. For the record, the record. Should give you an idea of where I come from since you have no idea. This might help too. Let me know when you're done hatin' and maybe we can talk some time. I'd love to de-program you from your AGW ideology. WWAED? The whole world's watching.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by mary59 (November 24, 2011 8:58 pm ET)
                7 2
                Loved that link, lard bucket. It shows how thoroughly funnymanpants debunked your posts and described how your arguments are based upon false analogies, emotion, repetition, and lots of empty rhetoric.

                Thanks!
                Report Abuse
                • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 5:05 am ET)
                  1 8
                  This time I'm picturing you with puppet strings complete with puppet mouth. Thanks for the laughs Mare. Guess you missed the follow-ups. Cheers!
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by Johaely (November 25, 2011 9:42 am ET)
                    7 1
                    You mean the hit and runs where people didn't reply because you were necroposting?
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by mary59 (November 25, 2011 12:03 pm ET)
                      7 1
                      Probably he thinks he "won" some points on that thread because he claims to be the most superior in energy conservation to anyone else on the planet.

                      Funnymanpants however debunked all of his cherry picked quotes and other talking point garbage on there. It was quite entertaining to think that he actually linked to a thread in which he was so thoroughly humiliated.
                      Report Abuse
                    • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 1:24 pm ET)
                      1 7
                      And what exactly would you be doing here now?
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by mary59 (November 25, 2011 2:37 pm ET)
                        7 1
                        Lard bucket,
                        We've both got a day off apparently. But I'm sure that you'll be leaving to re-cycle something and enjoy your beautiful life of climate change denial.
                        p.s. My name really is Mary.

                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 4:12 pm ET)
                          1 6
                          I was talking to Jo Joni59IQ. It's OK. Your big nose is welcome here.
                          Report Abuse
              • Author by Red XIV (November 25, 2011 11:07 am ET)
                7 1
                Your own previous posts aren't a source. And yes, I'm intolerant. Intolerant of stupidity. Intolerant of lies. And because of that, intolerant of you.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 1:29 pm ET)
                  1 7
                  Sure they are. Intolerant fools such as yourself need to be reminded of their idiocy.
                  Report Abuse
          • Author by CoolSlaw (November 23, 2011 12:29 pm ET)
            6 1
            Yep...and you're right on target and I enjoyed a good laugh as well. mmfa's incessant defense of the crumbling spectre of man-made global warming brings to mind Homer Stokes proclaiming, "It's twue, It's twue."


            If you believe that cherry picking through tons of stolen emails, finding a statement by one person that when taken out of the greater context appears to show level of reservation, and then hyping that and declaring "GOTCHA" while ignoring the mountains of actual SCIENTIFIC evidence, then...I guess you can enjoy a hollow giggle.

            Unfortunately, we live in a world where scientific laws and theories and physical reality trump wishful thinking and partisan media charades...every single time.

            If you found a leaked email from a doctor taken out of it's greater context talking to a colleague about "cancer not being the issue", does that change anything for those suffering with cancer? Should we tell patients to stop faking it and quit the chemotherapy?

            Your lack of common sense and basic grasp of how things work in the adult world is astounding.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by galileonardo (November 24, 2011 1:46 am ET)
              1 9
              See above. Actually, there's more I suppose.

              Morons as stupid as you will believe anything you are told to think.

              And that's why believers such as yourself are more likely to be duped by inaccurate activist science? How's that meshin?

              Unfortunately, we live in a world where scientific laws and theories and physical reality trump wishful thinking and partisan media charades...every single time.

              I honestly could not have said it better myself. I guess I would change "Unfortunately" to "Fortunately" but truly you have captured the crux of the issue: the Church of Climatology, or is that Crimatology, has assisted you into buying the anti-human media charade that promoted, heavily, a weakly supported non-empirical theory as "settled science." Suckers on both ends fly on blind faith and for AGW cultists their "wishful thinking" of humanity as scourge was granted. But, fortunately, [insert the rest of your sentence here].
              Report Abuse
              • Author by fantagor (November 24, 2011 1:54 am ET)
                8 1
                I can tell you are a paid to be a one-man noise machine.

                The smell of Big Oil and the Koch Bros. is all over you like stink on a skunk.


                Randy
                Report Abuse
              • Author by Johaely (November 24, 2011 2:31 am ET)
                8 1
                From what i'm picking up, your argument is pretty much that the only reason why people could think that humans have an effect in the atmosphere is because of misanthropy and a desire to control (otherwise you wouldn't be shoehorning the UN at every second).
                Report Abuse
                • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 5:09 am ET)
                  1 8
                  Not quite. Refer to the Anti posts to get a more accurate picture. As for what people think, most people who have bought into the AGW propaganda lead with their hearts. They think they are believing in the right, moral thing, but as we have discussed before the open aim of those propagating a "law of the atmosphere" is inherently one of control to the detriment of most all of humanity, rich and especially poor alike.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by Johaely (November 25, 2011 9:55 am ET)
                    8 1
                    Once again, like Andy said you believe its all some kind of conspiracy theory. There is no "aim" to climate science. The UNs statements are about something that you refuse to do: addressing the issue and effects. Apparently it seems that science is wrong if it affects your "freedoms" (read: checkbook).

                    You laugh at the idea that Climate Change, if it goes unchecked, would cause a disaster, constantly posting links mocking the idea and calling it "anti-human". Hell you laughed at the concerns of the people of Tuvalu and Maldives (probably ignoring the fact that they lie really under the sea level). Reading from all your posts that involve the UN, i'm not surprised if you even believed in the NWO.

                    You call yourself an environmentalist. Apparently, the environment ends outside of your own home.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 1:52 pm ET)
                      1 7
                      Sorry. Lunch break. NWO? No, they call it global governance. I'm surprised you don't believe in something that is openly discussed, especially given your belief in unsupported tooth-fairyesque theories. Denial perhaps? Sorry, gotta do it. It is kinda funny.
                      Report Abuse
                    • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 4:34 pm ET)
                      1 4
                      Hey Jo, I just found an updated version of the global governance usage in the latest round of emails. Enjoy:

                      What I wanted to achieve changing the order was a certain internal logic by putting the dimensions in a sequence of "causes and results". This implies also certain ranking of dimensions. E.g.: "global governance" may be treated as a "top hierarchy" driving force; if it is perfect (see left side of the table)" global institutions" are well developed and "geopolitical stability" is achieved; next, if all three dimensions are highly positive the "free communication and global co-operation" is ensured; all above provides a good background for "good education" .... a.s.o.

                      And everyone sings Kumbaya! It's gonna be a swell weekend. Cheers!
                      Report Abuse
          • Author by kabniel (November 23, 2011 1:19 pm ET)
            7 1
            Wes

            No he isnt right he is just brainwashed by the same corporate shills as you have been. Deniers arent even TRYING to do the science since they know people like YOU are so stupid and so gullible they dont have to. They just run a PR campaign. They dont even run a good one since they know they dont have to. Morons as stupid as you will believe anything you are told to think
            Report Abuse
            • Author by galileonardo (November 24, 2011 1:48 am ET)
              1 8
              Since you're repeating the Griffinesque "Don't be stoo-pid" routine, I guess the Anti-quote is needed again:

              On the whole, the most scientifically literate and numerate subjects were slightly less likely, not more, to see climate change as a serious threat than the least scientifically literate and numerate ones.

              Cheers!
              Report Abuse
              • Author by kabniel (November 25, 2011 12:53 am ET)
                6 1
                Galli

                I am repeating the GOD you are stupid citation because it is ASTONISHING how stupid you are. AGAIN that is meaningless. A poll of NON SCIENTISTS not working in the field not doing study on this matter means NOTHING. Not when the scientists who ARE doing the studies are overwhelmingly convinced of the fact of GW.

                AGAIN, and it is sad that I keep having to bring up this most important fact and it is sadder you are so STUPID that it doesnt seem to mean anything to you. You deniers are NOT DOING THE SCIENCE. Where are the denier peer reviewed studies? They dont exist because your side is doing only PR. PR only good enough to fool ignorant and gullible imbeciles like you
                Report Abuse
                • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 5:13 am ET)
                  1 7
                  Kabbage, here you go again:

                  That implication—which naturally provokes resistance—is likely to be strengthened when communicators with a recognizable cultural identity stridently accuse those who disagree with them of lacking intelligence or integrity.

                  And this. Enjoy. Cheers!
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by mary59 (November 25, 2011 2:39 pm ET)
                    6 1
                    Hmm, and that would be you as well.

                    How many beers are you on?
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 4:15 pm ET)
                      1 6
                      Well, considering your post makes zero sense, I'm guessing you're a six-pack deep at least. Probably more, though you strike me as more of a wino.
                      Report Abuse
        • Author by CatsRBigLuv (November 23, 2011 10:06 am ET)
          10 1
          At this point I have to laugh too, Galileaoleanardo..., out of pity for your moth-to-a-flame-esque obstinance, that is.

          I feel sorry for you, since you make such an effort to render your arm-chair computer searches more valid than years of real hard work, comparative data gathering and qualitative analysis by seasoned, reliable scientists.

          You really think you have it all figured out, eh pal?

          I bet you think Brit Hume is an expert on Buddhism, or that Stossel is a reliable source on urban poverty, too.


          For the record, you actually need some formal training in geo science to understand the lingo, the methods, the data, the concerns, etc... This is especially crucial when it comes to interpreting data for general review.

          You have proven time and again that you completely lack the basics of that essential understanding, and that you are more than willing to defer towards politically charged hallucinations, or popular (albeit inaccurate) Tea Party fantasies.


          Now, since you do seem to need some reading to occupy your holiday, you might want to check out the reports by Richard muller, a former global warming sceptic whose work was funded, in part, by the Koch Brothers...

          Heres an article from the Christian Science Monitor.


          Remember, this study was funded in part by the Koch Brothers..., you know, those evil, greedy s o b s who bankroll the Tea Party (along with Dick Armey... how apropo!)?

          These guys have done everything in their power to make sure that banks and corporations have more rights than you average American school teacher, and are entirely interested in debunking what they call a global warming myth.

          And even their study had to defer to real science, and the reality of global warming.


          But speaking of Tea Parties or their questionable funding, you can check out this begrudging article on the subject from Glenn Becks Blaze..., that is, if the CSMonitor is too liberal for you.

          You can read the Blazes very reluctant admission yourself.


          Now Galileoleonardo, you might want to consider one very important point.

          The political agenda to which you have dedicated yourself cannot trump science.

          As John Huntsman rightly warned your whole self-deluding right wing community, the GOP NEEDS to come to terms with science. You cant just wish it away.----

          "Listen, when you make comments that fly in the face of what 98 out of 100 climate scientists have said, when you call into question the science of evolution, all I'm saying is that, in order for the Republican Party to win, we can't run from science," Huntsman said at a Republican debate.


          I know the Tea parties want to take us back to their halcyon days of Witch Burnings, blood letting and legalized slavery. But as far as the issue global warming goes, you guys really are making your hallucinatory fanaticism more than apparent.

          With respect to that issue, I dont know why you all actively choose the insanity of a Michele Bachmann, the stupidity of of a Rick Perry, the dishonesty of a Newt Gingrich, the creepiness of a Herman Cain (or is it Herb Cain ?). But your attempts to obviate real science just so some coal factory wont have to make itself safe for its workers and the environment..., well, thats just unconscionable.


          Although, as the Iraq War made clear, the GOP has NO problem putting its wealthy, corrupt crony corporations ahead of real human lives.

          No surprise there.

          No wonder long-time GOP staffer Mike Lofgren went running from your insane pack of nazis this year!
          Report Abuse
          • Author by galileonardo (November 24, 2011 2:01 am ET)
            1 9
            Maybe this is where I should leave off for tonight. Just too much sadness in this BigScatLuvR response. Pitiful really. No energy left in the tank for that. Tune in tomorrow night for some edification. Even in a tryptophan haze I should be able to destroy that tripe, but just not tonight. Enjoy your holiday.

            In anticipation Sca you can visit this. I'm curious, have the Muller papers made it through peer review yet? Crash, Anti, Bluff, don't choke on the wishbone. Talk to you soon. Hugs!

            I especially look forward to discussing matters with you Crash. You could pre-empt me and offer some corrections to your work, or perhaps a few retractions. This can be your 24-hour-or-so notice that comments are forthcoming.

            Maybe you can make some changes to that first draft, before I do. I can give you a few bread crumbs for Thanksgiving breakfast. Perhaps you'll find your way. Here's one: upside-down Tiljander. This might help you prep too:

            Phil, you must be very careful about deleting material, more particularly when you delete it.

            More to come. Cheers!
            Report Abuse
            • Author by danielsangeo (November 24, 2011 2:01 pm ET)
              9 1
              I think the problem here is that you're cherry-picking quotes and posting them out of context to make people say things they aren't saying.

              To illustrate what you're dishonestly doing, I can say that the Bible says there isn't a God. How? By cherry-picking quotes and posting them out of context. Ready?

              "There is no God." --Psalm 14:1
              Report Abuse
              • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 5:15 am ET)
                1 7
                Can you tell me how your theory worked out here? Perhaps you can investigate further and follow-up.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by danielsangeo (November 25, 2011 7:13 am ET)
                  7 1
                  I'm not sure what you're asking. Can you please explain?
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 2:11 pm ET)
                    1 6
                    Well, I provided you with an example where I had initially posted an excerpt and then in this later post directed you to the full quote I also posted. It gave you the opportunity to test your theory. So, did I "make people say things they aren't saying?"
                    Report Abuse
            • Author by kabniel (November 25, 2011 12:58 am ET)
              7 1
              Galli

              You should have quit long ago. Every post you make shows only how stupid you are and how brainwashed you are. Deal with what Cat said. You really DO think your computer searches of denial websites and propaganda churned out by the PR campaign your side is doing instead of DOING THE SCIENCE is more reliable and makes you more of an expert than those DOING THE SCIENCE in this field for decades. I cannot think of a better definition of hubris nor a more handy one for STUPID.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 5:19 am ET)
                1 9
                Kabbage, is this you? Equally unhinged if not. Cheers! Well, I'll have to leave it there again for tonight. Same spot. I hope I can get back to address/undress the rest of this, but it's not quite that easy when there's a 10-on-1 going down. If not, I will certainly be back for more another thread and will kindly pick up where we left off. In case I do not return, please feel free to bring up any comments that may go unanswered in a future encounter. Happy holidays!
                Report Abuse
                • Author by mary59 (November 25, 2011 2:42 pm ET)
                  5 1
                  You think Kab is Deldolly too? She's probably the only one posting on here besides you.
                  Wow, she really gets to you eh?

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 4:16 pm ET)
                    1 5
                    Hey, I'm sorry for your schizophrenia syb. It must be tough to wear so many hats. Cheers!
                    Report Abuse
            • Author by CatsRBigLuv (November 25, 2011 10:41 am ET)
              11 1
              No Gall, I am sorry, but try as heroically as you might, your snark cant cloud solid, material facts...

              As John Hunstmen rightly said, You conservative fanatics CANNOT run away from science.

              You should stop trying to make such a concerted effort to do so... the results are always disastrous.

              You ran away from reliable data on Iraq, and you ran away from the truth about Bin laden hiding at the pleasure of Bush-Cheney allies in Pakistan.

              You ran away from the truth about holding health coverage for 9-11 First Responders (as hostage to tax breaks for the wealthiest one percent,) even as you run away from real history with your racist, anti-gay marriage pledges (Bachmann) or your heartless lampooning of the Holocaust (Beck).

              In running away from reality (yet again) you are endangering everyone... just like as with your pointless war and just like in your uncompromising disdain for political reconciliation.



              Its no wonder you guys are trained by the Washington Times, a publication which promotes your lies, embeds your hatered for science and which was, incidentally, founded by the Moonies.

              You do know who the Moonies are, right Gall?

              Throughout the last 30 years or so, the hyper conservative Moonies have been synonymous in America with brainwashing.

              Outside of vandalizing the homes of Central American refugees, the Moonies have made it a practice not just to brainwash their charges, but to teach them to brainwash themselves on the masters behalf.

              Founding the Washington Times was an explicit milestone in that agenda, as Rev moon himself stated.

              (You would do Rev Moon quite proud, Gal... you are EXACTLY what he said he wanted to create when he founded the Washington Times.)

              On top of it all, the Moonies are the authors of one of the strongest conservative periodicals in the country. (look it up, pal.)

              Its no surprise that one of the major conservative mainstream media outlets was founded by the Moonies, nor is it any surprise that Monica Crowley, Andrew Breitbart and a host of other Fox News contributors are paid employees of the Moonies via the Washington Times.

              Consider your bedfellows, dear.

              I have already provided enough solid proof on my end... even posting a link to articles on the Koch funded study.


              Meanwhile, you seem to hope that your self-important handle might lend you some credibility... it doesnt, and everything you post only reveals how truly off base you are.

              At the very least, i hope you are getting paid to be so daft and unaware... but sadly, it looks like you give it away for free.

              Blind faith must be its own reward, eh?

              Have fun making a political religion out of lying to yourself. Your master would be quite proud.

              toodles punkin!





              Report Abuse
              • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 2:06 pm ET)
                1 7
                LOL! Unhinged perhaps? See above, well below actually. That really is a gem of a post Sca. Thanks. It must really bother you that I don't fit your paradigm. Have fun with your effigies. I especially like this one:

                I have already provided enough solid proof on my end...

                Yeah, solid indeed, and not just from your end but out your mouth as well. Cheers!
                Report Abuse
                • Author by mary59 (November 25, 2011 2:52 pm ET)
                  5 1
                  So, this is wit amongst the right wing hack world, eh?

                  And again, all about you.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 4:25 pm ET)
                    1 6
                    Pretty funny no Dully? Speaking of me, I just reviewed the carnage on the thread. I'm left with a Brock Sampson kinda feeling. Gotta be over a dozen casualties, a bit of collateral damage but mostly enemy combatants that presented themselves as targets. Good times were had by all, and in the end, we all learned a little something about each other...that is, prior to having your pseudo-arguments destroyed. I look forward to meeting up with the next batch of recruits. I hope they put up a better fight than you did Dell.
                    Report Abuse
          • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 2:03 pm ET)
            1 5
            BigScatLuvR:

            For the record, you actually need some formal training in geo science to understand the lingo, the methods, the data, the concerns, etc... This is especially crucial when it comes to interpreting data for general review. You have proven time and again that you completely lack the basics of that essential understanding...

            Funny stuff. The old appeal to authority again. Rich. Here's Muller on the real question BTW (have you done your homework?):

            How much of the warming is due to humans and what will be the likely effects? We made no independent assessment of that.

            And your mirror moment:

            The political agenda to which you have dedicated yourself cannot trump science.

            The rest of your drivel doesn't warrant much comment. It is pretty pathetic. Not sure how any of that pointless meandering applies to me since I am mostly quite left of center, but I guess you needed to get that off your chest. Maybe you should get a diary or something. Perhaps a dream journal. That way you can keep the crazies at bay, or at least out of the public eye. Cheers!
            Report Abuse
            • Author by mary59 (November 25, 2011 2:54 pm ET)
              4 1
              Thanks Lard bucket. You really are trying to work on yourself by posting yourself a little pep talk to try to get out of your malaise.

              The mirror moment isn't too far off. Just work on it a bit more. Maybe try some tequila to go with the Coors.
              Report Abuse
        • Author by CrashGordon (November 23, 2011 10:15 am ET)
          11 1
          Please do put them in context for me:


          OK:

          Furthermore, the model output is very much determined by the time series of forcing that is selected, and the model sensitivity which essentially scales the range. Mike only likes these because they seem to match his idea of what went on in the last millennium, whereas he would savage them if they did not. Also--& I'm sure you agree--the Mann/Jones GRL paper was truly pathetic and should never have been published. I don't want to be associated with that 2000 year "reconstruction".

          That paper that was written many years ago was shown to have flaws. The data is much more complete today and I'm sure the paper likely wouldn't survive the peer review process today. Of course, it probably would be written very different today given all the new data that is present.
          I've been told that IPCC is above national FOI Acts. One way to cover yourself and all those working in AR5 would be to delete all emails at the end of the process.

          Hey, if your emails are ever stolen, they'll probably be completely misinterpreted by a bunch of political hacks who are totally ignorant about science. Just delete your emails to avoid giving them "proof" of a conspiracy.
          Somehow we have to leave them thinking OK, climate change is extremely complicated, BUT I accept the dominant view that people are affecting it, and that impacts produces risk that needs careful and urgent attention.

          Right now, we're losing the PR game because people don't understand climate science. We have to do a better job of educating the public.
          I have been talking w/ folks in the states about finding an investigative journalist to investigate and expose McIntyre, and his thusfar unexplored connections with fossil fuel interests. Perhaps the same needs to be done w/ this Keenan guy.

          A lot of "science" out there is actually corporate funded BS. Since most people don't know the difference between crap and real science, maybe if we reveal some of that BS in a tabloid way, it will appeal to today's reality show public that often doesn't have an attention span of more than five minutes.
          I can't overstate the HUGE amount of political interest in the project as a message that the Government can give on climate change to help them tell their story. They want the story to be a very strong one and don't want to be made to look foolish.

          Make sure your data is solid and that your message is accurate. Any mistakes will be picked apart by the partisan hacks who know nothing about science and are being payed by corporations who like to cause global warming in order to make huge profits. Always remember that in Washington, every issue is a political one.
          Similarly IPCC in their discussion on solar RF since the Maunder Minimum are very dependent on the paper by Wang et al (which I have been unable to access) in the decision to reduce the solar RF significantly despite the many papers to the contrary in the ISSI workshop. All this leaves the IPCC almost entirely dependent on CO2 for the explanation of current global temperatures as in Fig 2.23. since methane CFCs and aerosols are not increasing.

          Though some disagree, the best data we have show that solar RF is not the cause of global warming. Given that methane CFCs and aerosols are not increasing, it must be CO2 that's causing global warming.
          Clearly, some tuning or very good luck involved. I doubt the modeling world will be able to get away with this much longer.

          (No comment can be made either way because there is absolutely no reference here. They may be talking about someone who is using poor data to dispute global warming--give context to prove otherwise.)
          The important thing is to make sure they're loosing the PR battle. That's what the site is about.

          If we're ever going to defeat the scientific illiterates and prove to people that there is no real debate among scientists, we have to start doing a better job in the PR department. After all, the corporations who are trying to cloud the issue spend billions on PR.

          Although I agree that GHGs are important in the 19th/20th century (especially since the 1970s), if the weighting of solar forcing was stronger in the models, surely this would diminish the significance of GHGs.

          It seems to me that by weighting the solar irradiance more strongly in the models, then much of the 19th to mid 20th century warming can be explained from the sun alone.

          If we change something in the models (like solar forcing), it changes the outcomes. I'm sure glad there are tons of peer reviewed papers showing that solar forcing hasn't been a significant factor in the last forty years and no peer reviewed papers showing that is has.

          Cheers and happy reading (interpreting?)
          Report Abuse
          • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 12:13 pm ET)
            1 6
            Might as well start here since I said I'd reply. They're coming out of the woodwork now. Better late than never.

            I'm sure the paper likely wouldn't survive the peer review process today.

            That was my first hint, upside-down Tiljander. Mann et al. (2008). Not only did it survive peer review, no correction was offered and the incorrect use of the proxy has been picked up many times since. Further, the "no-dendro" eureka moment turned out to be fantasy.

            Just delete your emails to avoid giving them "proof" of a conspiracy.

            Yes, my second hint. Here it is in full:

            Phil, you must be very careful about deleting material, more particularly when you delete it. Section 77 of the FOIA state as follows:

            77. (1) Where
            (a) a request for information has been made to a public authority, and
            (b) under section 1 of this Act or section 7 of the [1988 c. 29.] Data Protection Act 1998,the applicant would have been entitled (subject to payment of any fee) to communication of any information in accordance with that section, any person to whom this subsection applies is guilty of an offence if he alters, defaces, blocks, erases, destroys or conceals any record held by the public authority, with the intention of preventing the disclosure by that authority of all, or any part, of the information to the communication of which the applicant would have been entitled.
            (2) Subsection (1) applies to the public authority and to any person who is employed by, is an officer of, or is subject to the direction of, the public authority.
            (3) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale.

            If information is deleted as part of an ongoing records management retention schedule, then it can and should proceed. Deleting information in response to a request is an offence as noted above.


            An offence and offensive perchance.

            Right now, we're losing the PR game because people don't understand climate science. We have to do a better job of educating the public.

            That's simply not the case, though often conjured. This is certainly not an issue of improving communication. The evidence bears that out as shown in the quote I offered many times at this point, though for other reasons:

            On the whole, the most scientifically literate and numerate subjects were slightly less likely, not more, to see climate change as a serious threat than the least scientifically literate and numerate ones.

            Also from that report:

            Resolving controversies over climate change and like risk issues requires dispelling this tragedy of the risk-perception commons (Hardin 1968). A strategy that focuses only on improving transmission of sound scientific information, it should be clear, is highly unlikely to achieve this objective. The principal reason people disagree about climate change science is not that it has been communicated to them in forms they cannot understand.

            You go on:

            A lot of "science" out there is actually corporate funded BS.

            In the case Mann was talking about, was that warranted? Did McIntyre need to be investigated as Mann wished?

            Given that methane CFCs and aerosols are not increasing, it must be CO2 that's causing global warming.

            That is absolutely not how the scientific method works. That is post-normal thinking and anathema in most scientific fields. Not climate science though. Such unfounded correlation is its cornerstone.

            No comment can be made either way because there is absolutely no reference here. They may be talking about someone who is using poor data to dispute global warming--give context to prove otherwise.

            Here you go.

            If we're ever going to defeat the scientific illiterates and prove to people that there is no real debate among scientists, we have to start doing a better job in the PR department. After all, the corporations who are trying to cloud the issue spend billions on PR.

            That would work if AGW hadn't gotten a free ride for over a decade. I'm not sure how you can claim otherwise.

            If we change something in the models (like solar forcing), it changes the outcomes. I'm sure glad there are tons of peer reviewed papers showing that solar forcing hasn't been a significant factor in the last forty years and no peer reviewed papers showing that is has.

            Except that that's not true. The forcing hasn't been accounted for. See CLOUD for a recent example. And it isn't just solar forcing that is poorly modeled. In my comment above I provide the entire quote. That should help expand on what was being said.

            I do appreciate your attempt. It is a welcome change considering the lack of substance I usually encounter (see above for plenty of examples). Cheers!
            Report Abuse
        • Author by Andy Kreiss (November 23, 2011 2:28 pm ET)
          9 1
          Gal Pal !! Long time no see ! I was worried that you might have found your way out of the cult.

          But something concerns me. You seem to be moving backward. In the past, I've seen you post your stories in the middle of summer, almost unheard of from your fellow congregants.You were sort of the smart kid in special class, going beyond the " tee hee, it's snowing in New England in January / Algore is fat" level of most of your fellow travelers.

          Is the church becoming that hard to defend ?

          I also thought you were above the "climategate" thing, but now you seem to be getting on board with that train that was taken out of service quite a while ago. What gives ?

          You're much funnier when you put out a little effort, when you put on your smart guy hat, and try to distinguish yourself from the typical cultists. Let's kick it back up a notch, shall we?

          If you get back here, I'd love to see more about the conspiracy driving "global warming alarmism" being a long-term scheme to deprive your grandchildren of their Christmas bonuses. That one was super!

          Hope you had a nice quiet summer, hope you're ready for your ( to quote Cosmo Kramer) "Crazy Season". Cheers !
          Report Abuse
          • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 2:14 pm ET)
            1 7
            Long time no see Anti? Guess you should open your eyes a bit wider (in so many ways). I think with the exceptions of March and August I've posted every month this year. Had a baby along the way too. Oops! I know how you lonely types feel about us filthy breeders. Sorry. Probably shoulda kept that one under wraps. Anyway, speaking of deliveries, I think I deliver "the goods" you were looking for above. Enjoy!
            Report Abuse
        • Author by Andy Kreiss (November 23, 2011 2:32 pm ET)
          9 1
          ps Gally - congrats on picking up wesley in the draft. His .000 batting average and league-leading errors should be a perfect fit with the team.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by ScienceBuff (November 23, 2011 4:06 pm ET)
          8 1
          Denialist Quote Mining

          This dishonest use of cherry-picked out of context quotes is very familiar to me. I've seen the same dishonest technique used for years by dishonest creationists. It's so common that Talkorigins created their Quote Mine Project to deal with the most common dishonest examples. [the "dishonest" angle can't be emphasized too much]

          That's some fine, science-loving company you denialists are keeping.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by galileonardo (November 25, 2011 2:18 pm ET)
            1 7
            I know you sacrifice animals Bluff, but are you a God-fearing man? Me. Not so much. So that whole religion angle kinda fails a bit with me. Keep trying though. I'll try to check in one last time in a bit before this party ends. If not though, have a great weekend. Now I can finally get to reading more of those juicy bitty tidbits. Delicious. You should give it a try.
            Report Abuse
    • Author by magnolialover (November 22, 2011 5:09 pm ET)
      11 2
      So... Some guys going back and forth on e-mail = gigantic cover up?

      Yeah, not even close.

      Review the reports. They are vetted. They are peer reviewed. They are solid science. If they weren't, they would have been destroyed already, and rightfully so.

      Sloppy science is easily discovered. Folks looking for it ain't gonna find it in these e-mails, look at the published works. These are akin to 2 guys having a conversation over dinner and are much ado about, well, nothing.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by dkylep (November 22, 2011 5:13 pm ET)
      12 1
      What a giant surprise. The land of idiots continues its marvelous trend of producing more retard opinions from halfwit talking heads. Americans need a refresher on what freedom of speech actually is. Freedom of speech doesn't give you the moral right to lie about things. Nor does it give you carte blanche to intentionally remain ignorant about things.

      So tired of ignorant opinion masquerading as something else throughout American society. In no other nation on the planet will you find a bigger collection of liars, scum, intellectual whores, and ignorant nobodies than on American 'news' and in American politics.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by Old_Benjamin (November 22, 2011 5:21 pm ET)
        8 1
        The land of idiots continues its marvelous trend of producing more retard opinions from halfwit talking heads.


        I know - I visited this post expecting to see something from wesley.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by danielsangeo (November 22, 2011 6:51 pm ET)
          6 1
          Aw, give him time. I'm sure he's formulating what he thinks will be a stinging rebuke only to repeat the same rubbish that can be debunked by a simple Google search.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by kabniel (November 23, 2011 5:30 am ET)
          5 1
          I think we need a war on ignorance and stupidity though obviously Wes and Galli would be casualties
          Report Abuse
        • Author by Andy Kreiss (November 23, 2011 2:17 pm ET)
          3 1
          I'm always sort of disappointed during the summer ( Denial Cult Hibernation Season) when climate-related threads here are so dull and fact-filled.

          Like the first snowflake, or the decorations at the mall, I think we're seeing the first signs of the season. Duhhhhhh... I gots to go shuvvel some globel warming outta my driveway...hyuk hyuk!

          Report Abuse
    • Author by Imbecile (November 22, 2011 5:15 pm ET)
      11 1
      I'm an editor. Before a book is published, we do something called "fact-checking". That is, we check to make sure nothing erroneous is being published and passed of as factually accurate.

      There will be e-mails and phone calls and other correspondence between us and writers as we question, verify, and discuss issues like this.

      I guess this means that the company I work for is trying to hide stuff by telling writers we shouldn't publish factually inaccurate stuff?
      Report Abuse
      • Author by dkylep (November 22, 2011 5:33 pm ET)
        10 1
        Don't you know? You obviously don't subscribe to the Stephen Colbert school of journalism. You publish from your gut, with truthiness, not from reality or with facts. Who are you to tell people that they have to celebrate the Fourth of July on July 4th? What business does the calendar have dictating such things to you? You may not read that the founding fathers were all supermen aliens from the planet Republicon, but you KNOW it in your gut, because no mere mortals could give us a system of governance or economics like the Republicans want to, and everybody KNOWS in their gut that the founding fathers were all republicans.

        Seriously, the demarcation in American society between 'idiot' and 'reasonable human being' is growing ever more obvious and apparent to the outside world. Your nation seems like its being run by a giant collection of super-idiots, whose only motivations are overwhelming greed and unbridled dishonesty.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by GreenLantern (November 22, 2011 10:46 pm ET)
      8 1
      I are hate Al Gore so's all that gloebal warmming junk is just a way for soros to make money off-in librul sientist lyars!
      Go Fax news! raw raw raw
      Report Abuse
    • Author by grmce (November 22, 2011 11:28 pm ET)
      9 1
      Most of the media don't give a rat's ar$e about the science nor do they have any concept of the socratic method and its subtleties let alone the principles of collaborative effort and peer review.

      They're only interested in conflict for conflict's sake. Blood on the floor sells, even if it's only metaphorical blood. None of the give a flying fu(k for the material facts under discussion.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by newzhound (November 23, 2011 10:07 am ET)
      9 1
      Missing from this conversation is the timing of the most recent "release" (thank you Newsbusters for avoiding the use of "stolen") emails.

      The gentleman in Berkeley reviewed all the data and concluded that the original report was correct. To drive this news off the front page, the hackers brought to light more old emails.

      Since we have a fresh report based on the original data - which do not appear to be in dispute - a reported funded and conducted by people who thought the results would be 180 degrees from what came out - it doesn't really make any difference what folks told each other several years ago.

      This is typical right wing nutz BS - distract, deflect, do their level best to change the subject. Keep pushing the Big Tobacco Strategy - "The science isn't settled." Perhaps this is like real-world intelligence - it is never settled. That's why it is science. However, the weight of the available evidence is so clear that we must stop debating the reality and start a serious conversation regarding what the heck we're all going to do about it.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by fantagor (November 24, 2011 2:00 am ET)
        8 1
        That's the strategy: promote the idea that the scientific community is still debating the issue, when in fact the scientific community has reached a consensus.

        And now that a former skeptic is on board, the deniers are freaking out. So they have set off more false alarms to distract the public from that uncomely, damning fact.

        Randy
        Report Abuse
      • Author by danielsangeo (November 24, 2011 11:14 am ET)
        6 1
        However, the weight of the available evidence is


        ...completely ignored by these shysters. Instead, they resort to "Duurrr, hurrrh, you forgot about the sun...harr harr!" or "LOL, climate changed before so cavemen drove SUVs! HARR HARR!" or "Mars is warming! Must be Martians driving Escalades!" or "You stupid libs want to control everyone!"

        Anything to distract from their completely vacuous argument.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by RavenRog (November 25, 2011 11:21 am ET)
      1 9
      This is damning stuff...

      ClimateGate 2.0

      Keep drinking the climate kool-aid, folks. You are all being scammed.

      I find it hypocritical that you all attack the right because of their "faith". Why can't we do the same to you? You do realize that climate change is a belief, one based on faith that this so-called "consensus" is true.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by RavenRog (November 25, 2011 11:22 am ET)
        1 7
        Oops...wrong link...

        Fixed...
        Report Abuse
        • Author by Johaely (November 25, 2011 11:35 am ET)
          8 1
          It's not based on "faith that this so-called "consensus" is true". It's based on the fact that research has shown it's true and the people that deny it most of the time do it on unscientific grounds.
          Report Abuse
      • Author by bilbo_dies (November 25, 2011 2:20 pm ET)
        7 1
        You do realize that climate change is a belief, one based on faith that this so-called "consensus" is true.

        This sounds like you don't believe in any kind of climate change.(?)

        Keep drinking the climate kool-aid, folks. You are all being scammed.

        Yes, I believe you are being scammed.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by RavenRog (November 25, 2011 3:34 pm ET)
          1 7
          By who? Big Oil? Lol....

          There is plenty of evidence from plenty of scientists that debunk a lot of the basis behind AGW (on scientific grounds). Liberals are the true deniers.

          Are these e-mails simply made up by some right-wing conspiracy? Get your heads out of the sand, folks...

          Hide the decline...
          Report Abuse
          • Author by bilbo_dies (November 25, 2011 3:54 pm ET)
            8 1
            You still didn't answer the question.

            Do you believe in climate change or not.

            Are these e-mails simply made up by some right-wing conspiracy? Get your heads out of the sand, folks...
            Hide the decline...

            Yes, the controversy over these stolen email is some kind of conspiracy. Right wing? I think money trumps politics the vast majority of the time and I do believe the pretend controversy over mans effect on climate is driven by monied interests.

            Don't forget about the "trick" that "hide the decline" is all about. You wouldn't want to leave out any of your talking points.
            Report Abuse

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