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Jamison Foser & Marcia Kuntz
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"Media Matters"; by Marcia Kuntz and Jamison Foser

September 29, 2006 8:24 pm ET
This Week:

Is your daughter a future detainee? What the media didn't tell you about the new anti-terror bill or Bush's power grab

Cable News Confidential author Jeff Cohen: another who gives a damn

Is your daughter a future detainee? What the media didn't tell you about the new anti-terror bill or Bush's power grab

The Senate just passed by a vote of 65-34 a bill that, among other things, allows the president to imprison forever, without trial, your neighbor's son -- a lawful permanent resident in the United States -- for emailing his Muslim roommate who went home to visit his family. Your daughter who organizes a protest at the Pentagon that gets a little more attention than the president thinks it should could become a detainee, held indefinitely. The bill says generally what activities qualify one as an "unlawful enemy combatant" subject to detention, but if the government can postpone that review indefinitely, who's going to tell the president that detention is illegal?

Think we're exaggerating? Think the bill goes after only terrorists or people who support them? Think again. The president is expected to sign it imminently. If you just read news reports, you won't have any idea how far this bill goes. Read it. Yes, it's too late to do anything, aside from letting your representatives know what they have done. They and the media have failed you. Read it.

But don't stop there. President Bush certainly hasn't. The bill's suspension of access to habeas corpus explicitly applies only to "aliens," which it defines as non-citizens -- in other words, legal permanent residents of the United States -- but the Bush administration has taken the position that it can detain anyone -- anyone, U.S. citizens included -- by, in its sole discretion, labeling that person an enemy combatant. Bush did that in the case of citizen Jose Padilla, simply asserting that he was a terrorist, and locking him up in a Navy prison in South Carolina for three years without charges. Padilla filed suit, and the Bush administration argued successfully to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Fourth Circuit that it could hold Padilla indefinitely as an enemy combatant. It was only following Padilla's appeal to the Supreme Court that the administration filed criminal charges against him, apparently fearful that the Supreme Court would rule in Padilla's favor. The Supreme Court refused to hear Padilla's case, writing that the criminal charges made it unnecessary at the time to rule on the issue of whether he was lawfully detained as an enemy combatant. Let's review: Padilla was held without charges for three years; the Bush administration took the position -- and continues to take the position -- that his detention was lawful and that it has the power to hold him until the conclusion of the war on terror. Rather than reining in the president, Congress has opted to make that unfettered authority clear only with respect to "aliens." The bill does include a definition of unlawful enemy combatants but, notably, does not limit the category to noncitizens. Congress has yet to act on Bush's assertion of power to detain U.S. citizens as unlawful enemy combatants.

The media have characterized the bill as one providing "Broad New Rules to Try Detainees" or, in the words of The Washington Post, a bill that institutes "landmark changes to the nation's system of interrogating and prosecuting terrorism suspects." Indeed, much of the media's focus on this legislation has been directed at the rift -- since healed -- between Sens. John McCain (R-AZ), Lindsey Graham (R-SC), and John Warner (R-VA) on the one hand and President Bush and his congressional supporters on the other over such -- obviously important -- issues as the treatment of detainees. But to read these reports, you would think the bill targets only "them" (as in "us versus them") -- terrorism suspects only a mother or the ACLU could love.

In fact, the bill is explicitly designed to deal with "them," but its effect is to cast a far wider net. You may be like many Americans who have a general unease about compromising the Bill of Rights, but think some give is necessary in the case of purported monsters like Khalid Shaikh Mohammed. If that's your understanding of what this bill does, you have been ill-served by the media. This is a bill that compromises the rights of all of us -- the KSMs of the world, but also those who the President Bush decides are a threat to this country -- or even to his agenda to privatize Social Security. And, you might not know it from such eminent media outlets as the The New York Times and The Washington Post, but not even Bush supporters are safe -- those who might meet with this administration's approval, but still fall victim to this bill if they pose a threat to a future administration that might have a lower respect than President Bush for the democratic principles that distinguish this nation.

How is this possible? Here's what the bill says: "No court, justice, or judge shall have jurisdiction to hear or consider an application for a writ of habeas corpus filed by or on behalf of an alien detained by the United States who has been determined by the United States to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant or is awaiting such determination."

In other words, under this bill, the president or his designee can simply decide that someone poses a threat, call them an unlawful enemy combatant, and lock them away. Yes, they are entitled to a determination by the Combatant Status Review Tribunal of whether they in fact meet the definition of unlawful enemy combatant. But the law doesn't impose a time limit. The government could simply postpone that hearing indefinitely, and the detainee would have the status of "awaiting such determination," and not be given access to federal court.

Yale law professor Jack Balkin:

That means that if the government decides never to try an individual before a commission, but just holds them in prison indefinitely, there is no way that they can ever get a hearing on whether they are being held illegally-- because they are not in fact a terrorist; or a hearing on whether they are being treated illegally-- because they have been abused or tortured or subjected to one of the Administration's "alternative sets of procedures"-- a.k.a. torture lite.

Sen. Patrick Leahy (D-VT):

[T]he bill has been amended to eliminate habeas corpus review even for persons inside the United States, and even for persons who have not been determined to be enemy combatants. It has moved from detention of those who are captured having taken up arms against the United States on a battlefield to millions of law-abiding Americans that the Government might suspect of sympathies for Muslim causes and who knows what else -- without any avenue for effective review.

[...]

The proponents of this bill talk about sending messages. What message does it send to the millions of legal immigrants living in America, participating in American families, working for American businesses, and paying American taxes? Its message is that our Government may at any minute pick them up and detain them indefinitely without charge, and without any access to the courts or even to military tribunals, unless and until the Government determines that they are not enemy combatants - a term that the bill now defines in a tortured and unprecedentedly broad manner. And that power and any errors cannot be reviewed or corrected by a court. What message does that send about abuse of power? What message does that send to the world about America's freedoms?

Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-NY):

This bill would not only deny detainees habeas corpus rights -- a process that would allow them to challenge the very validity of their confinement -- it would also deny these rights to lawful immigrants living in the United States. If enacted, this law would give license to this Administration to pick people up off the streets of the United States and hold them indefinitely without charges and without legal recourse.

In its front-page article about the Senate approval of the bill, The New York Times noted that the bill "would strip detainees of a habeas corpus right to challenge their detentions in court." The Times reported that senators from both sides of the aisle objected to the bill's revocation of habeas corpus rights for detainees, and noted that the bill extended to noncitizens living here legally. But the paper barely mentioned the broader implications.

Even so, the Times' September 29 coverage was somewhat better than its coverage the day before, when readers still might have actually weighed in with their senators. On September 28, Kate Zernike and Carl Hulse wrote:

But Democrats said the legislation would reverse fundamental American values by allowing seizure of evidence in this country without a search warrant, allowing evidence obtained through cruel and inhuman treatment, and denying relief or appeal to people like Maher Arar, whom the United States sent to Syria for interrogation that included torture even after the Canadian government told American officials he was not a terrorist.

"This is un-American, this is unconstitutional, this is contrary to American interests, this is not what a great and good and powerful nation should be doing," said Senator Patrick J. Leahy, Democrat of Vermont.

Zernike and Hulse noted that Sen. Arlen Specter (R-PA) offered an amendment to strike the habeas provision, but described it misleadingly as affecting only "terror suspects." Again, it's not just "terror suspects" who can be denied the habeas right under the bill -- it is also those the president chooses to detain for whatever reason.

In a September 28 article, The Washington Post was similarly uninformative about who precisely was being denied habeas corpus review in court under the bill. Staff writer Charles Babington wrote: "Some of the fiercest debates focused on whether foreign terrorism suspects should have access to U.S. courts for challenging the legality of their detention." Not exactly. Some of the "fiercest debates" focused on whether the president should have the authority to indefinitely detain legal U.S. residents -- a category that the word "foreign" does not begin to capture -- who are determined to be a threat under any criteria the Bush administration wants to impose -- a far broader category than "terrorism suspects." On September 29, Babington and Jonathan Weisman gave more information, noting that "Specter and his allies said the habeas corpus right must apply to all persons -- including noncitizens -- held in U.S. custody." But they did not note that the bill would deny habeas rights not just to noncitizens held in U.S. custody, but those who had actually been living lawfully in the United States. Nor did they note that the president himself has asserted that the habeas corpus right does not apply "to all persons," not even to all citizens.

Even an "analysis" by Post staff writer R. Jeffrey Smith, while including quotes from several legal experts denouncing the bill, does not lay out the full potential impact of the bill on legal residents of the United States of America. We certainly don't seek to trivialize the lofty denunciations of the bill as a blight on our democracy -- as a shameful departure from the best traditions of the world's shining city on a hill. But we also recognize that those might ring hollow or abstract against the horrific memories of September 11. So for those not persuaded by the moral or ethical arguments against the bill, consider this: your neighbors, your co-workers, you might one day fall victim to it, if the Supreme Court does not strike it down. The Times and the Post touch on the moral outrage generated by the bill; what they fall short on is the tangible harm it inflicts.

Cable News Confidential author Jeff Cohen: another who gives a damn

On the eve of the 10th anniversary of the launch of the Fox News Channel, Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting (FAIR) founder Jeff Cohen's new book, Cable News Confidential: My Misadventures in Corporate Media (PoliPoint Press), describes the Foxification of cable news. Cohen's career includes stints as a weekly panelist on Fox News, a daily commentator on MSNBC, and senior producer of that network's Donahue until the show was canceled on the eve of the Iraq war.

Last week, we described MSNBC Countdown host Keith Olbermann as seemingly alone in giving a damn about serious issues like the Bush administration's affinity for torture; Olbermann is the rare cable news host who is willing to speak truth to power. Cohen's book provides a cautionary tale about MSNBC's handling of Phil Donahue's show for the channel; Cohen describes MSNBC executives as forcing Donahue to soften his questioning of guests and to slant his show rightward:

In November 2002, management essentially seized control of Donahue in a quiet coup. What happened during the last months of the show can't be blamed on its dedicated staff or on Phil.

[...]

The overriding directive was to slant the show rightward. In essence, the plan was to imitate Fox News -- and, as time went on, to try to outfox Fox.

[...]

A nagging irritation to management from the start of Donahue was that Phil's questioning of authority figures was deemed "too angry." He didn't show due deference in one-on-one interviews. The complaint was that Phil "badgered" powerful guests when he didn't accept their answers or evasions. The reality is that while Phil could pose hard questions, he was almost always polite and good-natured - not rude or disrespectful like other cable news hosts.

Clearly, Phil was unintimidated by the powerful. He could be tenacious with those he called "laptop bombers" pushing for war in Iraq: Where's the evidence? Why the rush? Where's the media? Where's Congress? Whether questioning officials or elite journalists, he was holding those in power accountable -- which is what journalism is supposed to do.

If Cohen's description of management concerns that Donahue seemed "too angry," it's because, four years later, there still exists a significant universe of media elites who consider the passion of Bush administration critics to be more troubling than the administration's countless misdeeds. As we explained last week, Washington Post columnist David Broder exemplifies this attitude:

While concluding that President Bush "has proved to be lawless and reckless" and "started a war he cannot finish, drove the government into debt and repeatedly defied the Constitution," Broder explains why Bush was preferable to Al Gore and John Kerry: Their "know-it-all arrogance rankled Midwesterners such as myself."

Fortunately, in Broder's world, there are people of honor and principle and civility to save us from the nasty bloggers and "know-it-all" Democrats: people like John McCain, Joe Lieberman, Mike DeWine, John Warner, and Lindsey Graham. "These are not ordinary men," Broder tells us, putting his faith in them to stop the president from continuing behaving like a tyrant.

But these same extraordinary men have failed to do so -- again and again. These same extraordinary men have been leaders in Congress at a time when Congress has utterly abdicated its role in government, allowing the administration to be "lawless and reckless" in the first place. These same extraordinary men have stood idly by while the president used "signing statements" to signal his intention to ignore the rare law that they passed without his complete enthusiasm.

[...]

Broder continues to put his faith in a showman like McCain, perhaps because he is unable to stand with those darn "know-it-all[s]" on the left -- or perhaps because Democrats, too, stood by and let McCain lead the "fight."

And -- surprise -- it ended with McCain caving and declaring victory while the White House began laying the groundwork to ignore any concessions it pretended to make to McCain.

We can hardly wait for David Broder's next column extolling the "compromise" between Republicans, who want to torture people, and Republicans, who want to torture people a little less. At least it was all so very civil.

Washington Post columnist E.J. Dionne this week explained why the much revered "sober, moderate opinion" that Broder seems to value above all else is inadequate to the challenges posed by the Bush administration and their right-wing allies. Writing about former President Bill Clinton's response to criticism of his anti-terror efforts, Dionne explained:

Sober, moderate opinion will say what sober, moderate opinion always says about an episode of this sort: Tut tut, Clinton looked unpresidential, we should worry about the future, not the past, blah, blah, blah.

But sober, moderate opinion was largely silent as the right wing slashed and distorted Clinton's record on terrorism. It largely stood by as the Bush administration tried to intimidate its own critics into silence. As a result, the day-to-day political conversation was tilted toward a distorted view of the past. All the sins of omission and commission were piled onto Clinton while Bush was cast as the nation's angelic avenger. And as conservatives understand, our view of the past greatly influences what we do in the present.

A genuinely sober and moderate view would recognize that it's time the scales of history were righted. Propagandistic accounts need to be challenged, systematically and consistently. The debate needed a very hard shove. Clinton delivered it.

Keith Olbermann gives the most important debates of our time a "very hard shove" nearly every night. Viewers who are more interested in the truth about what is happening in their country than in being distracted by pictures of cuddly animals and "the grand prize winners of the annual Weight Watchers Inspiring Stories contest" would do well to watch Olbermann's Countdown. And they would do well to read Cohen's Cable News Confidential to understand the pressures journalists of goodwill are under.

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    • Author by mefirst (September 29, 2006 9:33 pm ET)
         

      right wing columnist cal thomas makes the usual distortion on clinton's record. he cites a 12-5-01 column in the los angeles times by mansoor ijaz, "a member of the council on foreign relations and chairman of an investment company in new york". mr ijaz's claim is that he "negotiated" with sudan to turn bin ladin over to the u.s. and clinton wasn't interested. but most of the time he claims to have been doing this negotiating, bin ladin was already in afghanistan. mr. ijaz has also made a lot of like claims in which he played a key role in various top level decisions. there seems to be no evidence for his claims. ijaz also worked as a commentator at fox. the 9-11 commission found there was "no credible evidence" of any attempt to turn over bin ladin and noted there was no legal way to hold him anyway, since he had no indictment against him at the time. but thomas insists it must be true because it's in the "left wing" l. a. times. of course, they are the same paper who said the downing street memo was worthless as proof that bush lied about wmd. but that is exactly what the head of british intelligence thought at the time: the facts were being "fixed" around the policy. in lying liars, al franken noted this quote by robert oakley, who dealt with counterterrorism in the reagan administration, to the washington post a month before clinton left office: "overall, i gave them very high remarks...the only major criticism i have is the obssession with osama, which made him stronger." exactly what clinton said, the criticism was his "obssession" with osama. but now we have to rewrite history to where clinton didn't care. paul bremer is also quoted telling the post that clinton was "correctly focused on bin ladin". which he was. and bush was "not on point" about him, as he told bob woodward.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by leatherhelmet (September 30, 2006 6:03 am ET)
           

        is a tape of Clinton explaining he didn't take Osama because he didn't want him without proof of a crime.

        It's fact. Mike Shuer, head of the Bin Laden unit, has said that he had numerous chances to assasinate Bin Laden, but Clinton, Berger and Clarke wouldn't do it because they feared that either others would be hurt or that assasination was illegal.

        Clinton blew it and Bush's team did not recognize the danger fast enough.

        Hopefully the blame game will subside after the election because it is already boring and old.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by mefirst (September 30, 2006 6:43 am ET)
             

          it's the fact that there was no indictment and no proof of anything against bin ladin at the time,1996, so clinton had no legal basis to detain him. maybe one day that fact will sink in for you. and if it was "illegal" to assassinate bin ladin, then how do explain the cruise missiles clinton launched against him? as far as the "blame game", your side has had no problem playing it. we just had a 5 hour propaganda series written by a right winger who claimed clinton did nothing. bush still runs all over the country proclaiming he's keeping us "safe". so it's quite germane to the current political situation to discuss who did what. there is no proof that bush did anything but downgrade and deemphasize and ignore the fight against terrorism. tell me why bush said he was "not on point" about bin ladin prior to 9-11?

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          • Author by daleesq8459 (September 30, 2006 9:26 am ET)
               

            You and I could name so many lies and half-truths that this Admin has told. The list of disgraced scandal-riddenRepubs grows daily. The MSM has egg on their cowardly and anything-for-a-buck faces. It's all becoming clear to all but the delusional. The toughest thing for many of the Bush supporters will be to admit their poor judgment, but then again, their Role Model in Chief never will, so don't hold your breath.

            Yeah -- "stay the course" -- like the Titanic. Throw the bums out. Vote Democratic and return checks and balances. That's the only way we can rest somewhat assured that our govt won't continue to be hijacked by the American Jihadists. You know the ones, the "Christian" types who love war and torture. What Bible are THEY reading?

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          • Author by mefirst (October 02, 2006 6:43 am ET)
               

            mentioned in woodward's new book, and that has been the subject of stories over the weekend about rice dismissing tenet's concerns about an attack, should not be a surprise. 9-11 report page 265: "[acting fbi director thomas] pickard said he met with [attorney general] ashcroft once a week in late june, through july, and twice in august...pickard told us that after two such briefings ashcroft told him that he did not want to hear about the threats anymore. ashcroft denies pickard's charge." page 259: "by late july, tenet said it [threat reports] could not get any worse...on june 30, the seib contained an article titled 'bin ladin threats are real'. yet hadley told tenet in july, that deputy secretary of defense paul wolfowitz questioned the reporting...to give a sense of his anxiety at the time, one senior official at the counterterrorist center told us that he and a colleague were condidering resigning in order to go public with their concerns." so the idea that condi or other bush officials ignored yet another warning is no shock.

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        • Author by dave_chicago (September 30, 2006 1:01 pm ET)
             

          >>"Clinton blew it ... Hopefully the blame game will subside after the election because it is already boring and old."<<

          Leatherhelmet says we all must stop blaming----as soon as he's done blaming Clinton, that is.

          Report Abuse
      • Author by mefirst (October 01, 2006 7:51 am ET)
           

        richard clarke told sixty minutes that he felt the bush administration people were "preserved in amber". they came back into office with the same issues, iraq, star wars, from when they held office eight years before. he quotes paul wolfowitz at a meeting as saying: "we don't have to deal with al qaeda. why are we talking about that little guy [bin ladin]". he said wolfowitz wanted to concentrate on "iraqi terrorism". on sept 9 2001, rumsfeld told congress that there would be a presidential veto if they voted to move $600 million from missile defense to counterterrorism. john ashcroft did not even list terrorism among his priorities in announcing his first attorney general's budget. there is a mountain of evidence that not only did the bush administration ignore bin ladin and terrorism, they deliberately dismissed the threat.

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        • Author by mefirst (October 01, 2006 10:15 am ET)
             

          the usual disinformation. brit hume talked about wallace's "mildly worded" question to clinton. "why didn't you do more" is not mildly worded. did you do enough would have been appropriate. brit also tried to compare the house page scandal with clinton, by saying clinton was involved with a "subordinate". true but the comparison ends there. monica was in her twenties, had an affair with a married professor in college, and told the fbi that she had initiated the action with clinton by flashing her thong at him. wallace also tried to show clinton was wrong by selectively showing him asking if fox had questioned conservatives in a like fashion. but what they did not show was clinton asking if they had questioned bush administration officials about the cole and why they had demoted and ignored richard clarke. instead, what they rolled out, yet again, was rumsfeld being asked some fairly tame questions in 2004. i wrote before that this is their "proof" of how tough they are on the bush administration. this one two year old interview.

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    • Author by navy_guy (September 29, 2006 9:40 pm ET)
         

      Well,

      It has happened folks. The recently enacted Senate Bill which outlaws an 800 year-old provision rooted in English Common Law, "Habeas Corpus" and has served as a binding protection for US for some 220 years has essentially been abrogated and tossed to the ash can of history.

      The legislation has a genesis which is rooted in events and decisions inspired by the 'War on Terror' which if not challenged by constitutionally-minded Americans WILL define US as a feeble, fearful and neglectful constituency WHO are chartered to a common cause by our Founding Fathers as responsible stewards of the Constitution.

      Notwithstanding that the Supreme Court recently ruled that the Military Tribunal 'Gulag Archipelago' system consisting of Guantanomo and rendered facilities spread throughout countries of ill repute IS unconstitutional, the current administration now seems inclined to enact legislation which is catered to providing the PREZ with unlimited power and interpretative discretions of 'Just who is a Terrorist', replete with personal interpretations of what defines torture, AND all of that doesn't matter anyway since doing away with 'Habeas Corpus' condemns anyone to disappear without an appeal to Courts for a finding of fact as to the why they have been incarcerated up to and including US citizens.

      Such legislation is the Hallmark of dictatorial rule where OUR Constitutional System of Governance with its intrinsic protections of checks and balances IS now 'de facto ' dead. Fascism coming to America will not be the goose-stepping variety of 'Sieg Heils', torch parades with banners, et al.................... But will slowly conspire in small and minute incremental steps to render the Constitution as outdated and binding on the Chief Executive........... THUS, it must be disregarded.

      The extreme irony here is that a renegade President, Commander-in - Chief, and Chief Executive was the great fear of the Founding Fathers and the reason the CONSTITUTION was written.

      WE might ALL relect on this quote:

      " Timid men prefer the calm of despotism to the tempestuous sea of liberty." Thomas Jefferson

      Report Abuse
      • Author by pete592 (September 29, 2006 11:21 pm ET)
           

        The document I grew up reading and coming to respect while in school. The foundation or our nation. Something that I and so many others have held dear for so long. To see it get cast aside because of 19 boxcutter-wielding barbarians is absolutely sickening.

        Report Abuse
      • Author by pete592 (September 29, 2006 11:21 pm ET)
           

        The document I grew up reading and coming to respect while in school. The foundation of our nation. Something that I and so many others have held dear for so long. To see it get cast aside because of 19 boxcutter-wielding barbarians is absolutely sickening.

        Report Abuse
      • Author by fools_gold1967 (September 30, 2006 7:33 am ET)
           

        It has happened folks. The recently enacted Senate Bill which outlaws an 800 year-old provision rooted in English Common Law, "Habeas Corpus" and has served as a binding protection for US for some 220 years has essentially been abrogated and tossed to the ash can of history.

        Because it NEVER lived. There has NEVER been "Habeas Corpus" rights for prisoners in times of war. The Germans or the Japanese in WWII didn't have them. Even the American soldiers is our own CIVIL WAR didn't have them. In fact, this bill ASSURES the MOST rights EVER that for a Prisoner of War, your hysterical meanderings notwithstanding. Something can't DIE that never LIVED.

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        • Author by left of center (September 30, 2006 9:55 am ET)
             

          Are you just incredibly thick? do you NOT understand the implications of the language of this bill? These guys can now label ANYONE, citizen or otherwise, an "enemy combatant" - this means YOU dips**t. And, no, I'm not going to be civil about this - the time for that is long over. Any person in this country that our government now deems a threat can be detained indefinitely without proof, charges, or any legal recourse. This administration is taking every possible measure to stifle free speech with this law. If you speak out, and they don't like it - watch out - they just might come for you next. did you EVER read the history of how the third reich came to exist? Have you ever heard the expression "those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it" ? Hitler came to power through the German parliament, using exactly the same strategy. I cannot believe that even one of you neocon morons can possibly believe you love this country or are patriots. And this law they passed is RETROACTIVE - this means that no one in the administration can be charged with war crimes for things they did prior to the passage of this horrible legislation - I'll bet ol' W is breathing a sigh of relief right now. Ah, yes, the GOP, the "accountability party" or, better yet " the party of personal responsibility" or, as I prefer to call them, "the party of the 5 year opposite day" So, who's going to be the next one who responds to this stating that I'm Chicken Little and the sky is not really falling? Just keep walking the treadmill folks, there is nothing to see here - Oh, they won't come for me, I never do ANYTHING wrong. Well, I'm sure glad they came for my neighbor, and not me this time. Go ahead, keep ignoring it, keep telling yourselves it can't happen here.

          Report Abuse
          • Author by fools_gold1967 (September 30, 2006 4:47 pm ET)
               

            Are you just incredibly thick?

            Not at all. It's the nature of war dips###t! Do you realize in WAR, a soldier can KILL another human being without a hearing, without what we consider "probable cause," or many of the other protections afforded in peace time civilization. Bombs are dropped on areas that kill bid guys AND innocent civilians in times of war. ALWAYS, ALWAYS been that way. So while you cry about the "death" of whatever nonsense, pull your head out of your...........IT'S A WAR!!

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            • Author by left of center (September 30, 2006 7:26 pm ET)
                 

              This is NOT a war. Iraq is an occupation, and was in no way related to 9/11. There is no country, no uniform, no nationality to those that attacked us. And so now, since you and those like you prefer to live your lives terrified, and to use that as justification for the erosion of our civil liberties, our way of life is going down the toilet. The terrorists have already won unless we get control away from the criminals currently running our government. What this legislation has done - you ideologue idiot - is open up ANYONE who disagrees with the administration to detention without legal recourse. To NAVY GUY - great post below - well put, and thanks for putting forth the regs. This clown and those like him will be the undoing of this country. Unfortunately, liberty has a price, and some people getting away with terrible acts is sometimes one of those prices. That's life. I'll take it - it carries risks. If you choose to live in terror, and in fear -well, so be it. But please leave and do it somewhere else and leave those of us who believe in the Constitution of our land and UNDERSTAND IT to live our lives without your twisted justifications. Without our laws,without the moral high ground (i.e. WE DO NOT TORTURE PEOPLE!!), we have lost our greatness.

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              • Author by fools_gold1967 (September 30, 2006 8:01 pm ET)
                   

                This is NOT a war. Iraq is an occupation, and was in no way related to 9/11.

                LOL!! You apparently don't even understand the freakin issue. This is NOT about Iraq. This has to do with the war on terror, of which Iraq is a part, and war in genreal. It covers the rules for THIS war and future wars, if any, on the treatment and trials of combatants. Maybe THAT'S where you misunderstanding is founded. POW's have NEVER in the history of the country had habeas corpus rights. It's REALLY THAT simple!

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                • Author by left of center (September 30, 2006 8:25 pm ET)
                     

                  it is YOU who do not understand the issue. There will always be people willing to resort to violence in support of a cause. YOU are willing to allow our civil liberties to be taken away by a group that has been proven to be wrong time after time after time. Terrorism has gone on for centuries throughout the planet. Now, just because it happens to us, it's a war? And apparently you buy the tallking point that Iraq is now the central front in the war on terror - hate to tell you this, but Iraq is nothing more than a training ground that YOUR CHIMP IN CHIEF has provided for Al Qaida - they're getting lots of experience blowing up OUR servicemen. And, just a simple question for you - if 1967 is your birth year - which I'm taking from your username - go sign up - go fight 'em buddy. They'll take you up to 41 now - put your money where your mouth is. Or are you - just like our current "leaders" - a chickenhawk? Because I'm really, really sick of those of you who are willing to send our service men and women to die, but won't put your own skin in the game. The terrorists aren't the cowards here, unfortunately - it's those of you who are so afraid that you're willing to give up our liberties in this country.

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                  • Author by BarryGoldwaterConservative (October 01, 2006 1:18 pm ET)
                       

                    I completly agree. The right seem to think suceeding in Iraq will end terrorism. What about Lebanon, Syria, and Iran? Dubya has no plan nor will he ever. Why can't more cons understand that?

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            • Author by daleesq8459 (October 01, 2006 1:51 am ET)
                 

              No, a soldier cannot just kill the other guy. That might be murder and a violation of the Geneva convention. You cannot just execute enemies on the spot, you moron.

              By the way, what military experience do you have? Just reading books and listening to war news? Or have you had bullets and fragments whizzing by your head, like I have. Seems like you have too much Rummy blood, or rum, in you. You can't be serious.

              Report Abuse
              • Author by worrierking (October 01, 2006 11:11 am ET)
                   

                But they usually don't have any experience to draw from. They don't seem to understand that there are rules, even in combat zones.

                So regardless of what they're told by the talking heads in the media and by the neocons in positions of authority, anyone who's served under fire knows differently. And these cretins dishonor anyone who has served by their lust for vengeance on those captured.

                Report Abuse
        • Author by navy_guy (September 30, 2006 10:22 am ET)
             

          Really,

          Then, WHY did Republican Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman, Arlen Specter propose an amendment to the Military Commissions Act which would have preserved the right of Habeas Corpus??.................. Specter to his credit knows full well THAT the Act without the inclusion of the 'writ' only serves to allow the Executive Branch unbridled concentration of 'interpretive measures' as to WHO constitutes a Terrorist, removes judicial oversight from an equal co-branch of government, THUS assuring that the PREZ and he alone is granted full expansive power to detain without judicial review.

          In essence, it will grant the President with what history reveals was expansive power ONLYreserved for monarchs and kings. Since the nation's founding, the 'WRIT" has been suspended only four times-each only briefly and in a territory that was an active combat zone. This bill would suspend it for all non-citizens inside or outside of the U.S. - even if they have not been charged with any crime.

          Congress in essence has been issued a 'fait accompli' by the President's henchmen perverted sense of what they define as the principle of the 'Unitary Executive', not mentioned anywhere in the Constitution BUT usurped by a power-mad cliques of modern day CHICKENHAWKS, ready and able to eviscerate treaties, reinterpret existing statutes and case law, etc ALL in a furious attempt to shield the President and his lackeys from potential law suits and criminal litigation ............

          Fools Gold, Go PAN for the real stuff IF you dare to find it!!!!!!!!!!

          Report Abuse
          • Author by fools_gold1967 (September 30, 2006 4:53 pm ET)
               

            Then, WHY did Republican Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman, Arlen Specter propose an amendment to the Military Commissions Act which would have preserved the right of Habeas Corpus??..................

            What does that have to do with the fact that "habeas corpus" has NEVER, EVER existed in times of war with enemy combatants, PERIOD, end of story. Your weeping little missives have NOTHING to do with the reality of THIS situation, and EVERYTHING to do with POLITICAL FRUSTRATION. Anybody that sees this as anything monumental is deceiving THEMSELVES. It only CONFIRMS what has been the CASE in EVERY PREVIOUS CONFLICT so go sell it somewhere else.

            Besides, I'm STILL waiting on your, how did your put it, "national civics lesson!" LOL!!

            Report Abuse
            • Author by navy_guy (September 30, 2006 6:31 pm ET)
                 

              FoolsGold quotes:

              " Your weeping little missives have NOTHING to do with the reality of THIS situation."

              Well, well,

              It seems 'LeftofCenter' and I have touched a nerve. Instead of replying in a scholarly fashion, YOU repond with an emotional diatribe that I would expect from a 6 year-old. Our reponse to you has nothing to do with soldiers engaged in carnal warfare on the battlefield BUT has everything to do with noncombatants WHO from sources that are often less than trustworthy and FREE from due diligence as to the accusation, are scooped up en masse to be thrown into dungeons of foreign nations and THEN without representation ' tortured' according to the whims of what the President decides.

              Good Good, of the 700 incarcerated in GITMO, 14 have been charged. Many of these unfortunates were handed over to our special forces and CIA Operatives by the Pakistani ISI, who funded and supported the Taliban, AND Northern Alliance forces eager to win some Uncle Sam Greenbacks offered US some taxidrivers, schoolteachers, in addition to 12-14 year olds. Not to mention that some 30+ have died in US captivity, a 'WAR CRIME' according to Article 3 of the Geneva Convention and a violation of the the War Crimes Act of 1996, passed by a REPUBLICAN-controlled Congress, to wit:

              TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 118 > § 2441 UNITED STATES CODE,

              § 2441. War crimes

              (a) Offense.— Whoever, whether inside or outside the United States, commits a war crime, in any of the circumstances described in subsection (b), shall be fined under this title or imprisoned for life or any term of years, or both, and if death results to the victim, shall also be subject to the penalty of death.

              (b) Circumstances.— The circumstances referred to in subsection (a) are that the person committing such war crime or the victim of such war crime is a member of the Armed Forces of the United States or a national of the United States (as defined in section 101 of the Immigration and Nationality Act).

              (c) Definition.— As used in this section the term “war crime” means any conduct— (1) defined as a grave breach in any of the international conventions signed at Geneva 12 August 1949, or any protocol to such convention to which the United States is a party;

              (2) prohibited by Article 23, 25, 27, or 28 of the Annex to the Hague Convention IV, Respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land, signed 18 October 1907;

              (3) which constitutes a violation of common Article 3 of the international conventions signed at Geneva, 12 August 1949, or any protocol to such convention to which the United States is a party and which deals with non-international armed conflict; or

              (4) of a person who, in relation to an armed conflict and contrary to the provisions of the Protocol on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Mines, Booby-Traps and Other Devices as amended at Geneva on 3 May 1996 (Protocol II as amended on 3 May 1996), when the United States is a party to such Protocol, willfully kills or causes serious injury to civilians.

              So FoolsGold, AS I stated before, there are no immitation nuggets here, GO PAN for the REAL STUFF or go back to your XBox latest war -game or maybe it's little plastic army green men that you fantasize with.

              As for the Civics lesson, there's plenty of time!!

              Report Abuse
              • Author by fools_gold1967 (September 30, 2006 7:25 pm ET)
                   

                Instead of replying in a scholarly fashion, YOU repond with an emotional diatribe that I would expect from a 6 year-old.

                I responded in kind. The first phrase in left of center's initial response to me was, "are you incredibly thick?" Not the precursor to an intelligent dialog. So instead of spending your time wiping left of center's bloddied nose, why don't you just face the reality of the debate, which is;

                You seem to continue to fail to respond to the ONLY relevant fact and that is Habeas Corpus has NEVER been extended to enemy prisoners in time of War. That's simple enough for even you. So put away your JAG home edition game for amatuers and wake up to reality. It's a WAR!! So your weeping nonsense about the "death" of this or that is JUST THAT, weepy eyed NONSENSE.

                It seems 'leftofcenter' and I touched a nerve

                Actually no, you touched a bone. My FUNNY bone

                As for the Civics lesson, there's plenty of time!!

                The expiration date on your "civics lesson" has long passed. Give it a rest and get real!

                Report Abuse
                • Author by navy_guy (September 30, 2006 8:17 pm ET)
                     

                  Was ist es dass du verstehest nicht?

                  Or as the Germans would say, "What is it that you don't understand?"

                  I specifically indicated to you that the "Habeas Corpus' deletion in the Military Commissions Legislation as stipulated in my reply DID not pertain to 'Soldiers' BUT noncombatants in the traditional sense WHO are now denied the 'WRIT' after being accused of being terrorists BY oftentimes less than trustworthy sources!! Get it!!!

                  What we have in place today is a total abrogation of every International Treaty, WE as a soverign nation have entered into in the last 100 years.......... WHICH is a violation of the Constitution according to what is commonly referred to as the SUPREMACY CLAUSE, to wit:

                  Article VI, Paragraph 2 of the United States Constitution is known as the Supremacy Clause:

                  "This Constitution, and the laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be Supreme Law of the land; and the Judges in every state shall be bound thereby, any thing in the Constitution or Laws of any state to the contrary notwithstanding."

                  The Supremacy Clause establishes the Constitution, Federal Statutes, and U.S. treaties as "the SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND.

                  So, can I expect some more, This is WAR tripe..... And Bad things happen............... PLEEEEEZ.

                  Seems some elite German Waffen SS Units, " Einsatzgruppen' maintained that same rationale when they unleashed their blood lust in WW2. Nuremberg set the record straight, 'Following orders in the chain of command doesn't quite cut the mustard' WHEN such orders are illegal.

                  At least, the Tribunal had the fortitude to punish the High Command and not the enlisted like WE have already done bt sentencing 18-20 year old National Guardsmen to Leavenworth while the policy makers at the top feign innocence.

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by left of center (September 30, 2006 8:32 pm ET)
                       

                    We're both wasting our time - I, for one, am now done for the evening - I have better things to do with my time - like spending it with my lovely wife - than attempting to explain why our country used to be so great ( pre-neocon nazi era ) to someone who is clearly so scared s**tless that they'll buy anything they're told by a bunch of coward, chickenhawk liars who collectively have never done a thing for anyone but themselves and their bank accounts. Amazing waste of time - but I've been reading your posts - good effort, anyway.

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by navy_guy (September 30, 2006 8:53 pm ET)
                         

                      Same here, And pleased to make your acquaintance. I appreciate your posts likewise.

                      PS. All kidding aside, FG is one scary guy.

                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by worrierking (September 30, 2006 9:15 pm ET)
                           

                        You hit the nail on the head with this one. He is as ideologically pure as they come. You'd get a more logical debate with a Mynah Bird.

                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by fools_gold1967 (September 30, 2006 9:45 pm ET)
                             

                          And when it's all said and done and you guys retire for the evening the fact remains, unrefuted, habeas corpus has NEVER, EVER been extended to THE ENEMY in times of WAR! And that's a FACT!!

                          Sleep tight!!

                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by solon (September 30, 2006 9:53 pm ET)
                               

                            THEY ARE NOT BEING AFFORDED THE TREATMENT OF POW's. We cannot use the POW excuse to keep them and deny them the legal protection afforded POWs. IF we want the priveleges of keeping them as POWs we have the OBLIGATIONS set in international law to TREAT them like POWs.

                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by daleesq8459 (October 01, 2006 2:02 am ET)
                                 

                              I agree with much of what you write. FG? AA? who knows where their logic would take them. But do you suppose if "certain people" here were tortured -- because, as FG insists, it is WAR, whadya suppose would be learned from the top guys? Maybe the truth about this god-awful war they started? All their lies? GW would probably break down in two seconds -- at the first sight of water... To be clear, I mean no disrespect. I am, you see, afraid to speak out lest I hear a knock on my door. I have had the big guns pointed at me, and the last thing you want is a misguided agency after you.

                              Report Abuse
                • Author by solon (September 30, 2006 9:50 pm ET)
                     

                  You obviously DO. Keep talking about POWs as IF we are treating these prisoners AS POWs but we arent. That is the central point. I dont have a problem treating those captured on the battlefield as POWs. Those who are just being kept as prisoners that we have no reason to believe are prisoners of war have always in the PAST had accsess to Habeus Corpus. Its clear that as usual you dont know what you are talking about. Just buying people turned in by foriegners have a right to petition the law to show their innocence, more accuratly to have their guilt proven. As for the POWs, I am fine treating that way but if we want to use the excuses of POW status then we must TREAT them as POWs. YOU like Bush are trying to have it both ways. No one here is dumb enough to let you get away with this transparent tactic. You need to stop pretending that YOU are the one that is understanding the issue at the same time you are trying to obfuscate the very essense of what is being talked about.

                  Report Abuse
        • Author by solon (September 30, 2006 9:39 pm ET)
             

          Are you saying the detainees are POW's. That is they have a RIGHT not to answer any questions except their basic identity? NO, they are not being treated as POWs. Therefore, as usual, YOU HAVE NO POINT.

          Report Abuse
        • Author by daleesq8459 (October 01, 2006 1:47 am ET)
             

          ... never mind that it is really an invasion by an occupying force.

          But the point I am making is that Clinton, Blair, Musharaff, the Phillipines, the Jordanians probably -- they all captured the perpetrators or squealched terrorist plots through law enforcement actions, in which case you do not have "prisoners of war." Very near trick to start a war so that there is an amorphous group of "enemy combatants." The British thought WE were terrorists (not the term in vogue before and during Revolutionary war, but...). The Minutemen were ambushing and slaughtering the Brits. It's not funny, but ironic how it all depends upon which "side" you're on. But one this is for sure: the Colonists, fresh from oppression wrote the Constitution and Bill of Rights, knowing full well what a monarchy and oppression was. How could we allow oursleves to forget those lessons? We did not become a great nation by trampling on citizens or non-citizens or even the rights of prisoners of war. In just three short years, Bush has thrown it all away, or rather, he is trying to. He will not succeed, because we Americans won't let him. After all, aren't societies judged by the way they treat their "worst" citizens? (think Padilla...).

          The Admin and GOP is imploding. You can't fool all the people all the, er, can't get fooled again. Not by the Fool in Chief.

          Put the money (2-3 bil per week) into intelligence, linguists, law enforcement. The Admin should stop sending our young troops where we don't belong, to get attacked every 15 minutes. Wise up.

          But now that we have screwed it up, we have a duty to fix it. Soon and smartly. But not with this crowd.

          Report Abuse
    • Author by pete592 (September 29, 2006 11:10 pm ET)
         

      Seeing our entire system of laws, rights and respect for human dignity thrown into chaos and dividing our nation is more than the terrorists could have ever hoped for.

      Bush has squandered the support of his nation, he has squandred the support of the world, and he has solidified and emboldened the cause of worldwide terror. All the while, more people die, more tax dollars are flushed down the toilet, and Bush's cronies get wealthier.

      We must divert ourselves from this deadend course now.

      VOTE

      Report Abuse
      • Author by navy_guy (September 30, 2006 12:00 am ET)
           

        pete592 quotes:

        " The document I grew up reading and coming to respect while in school. The foundation of our nation. Something that I and so many others have held dear for so long. To see it get cast aside because of 19 boxcutter-wielding barbarians is absolutely sickening."

        Regarding the protection of the Constitution, it is the one sworn oath that ALL Congressman, Military Officers, and PRESIDENTS openly declare to preserve, protect and defend against all Enemies, both foreign and DOMESTIC........... And the President solemnly declares that all Laws will be faithfully executed.

        By this simple declaration alone, Many stand in defiance of their oath of office and patriotic and honorable duty as Commissioned Officers in the Armed Forces of the United States.

        Report Abuse
    • Author by steeve (September 30, 2006 1:16 am ET)
         

      As Padilla shows, Bush was doing what the bill allows before the bill allowed it. He was blowing off warrants and spying on anyone whether it was legal or not.

      The bill will be struck down as unconstitutional as soon as it's challenged. It might not be challenged, but neither was Bush challenged for all his previous lawbreaking. Bush has kingly powers before and after the bill. Bush would be stripped of his kingly powers if he's ever effectively challenged, before and after the bill.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by leatherhelmet (September 30, 2006 6:10 am ET)
           

        be declared unconstitutional because the Supreme Court gave Congress the pathway to solving the problem.

        This legislation does exactly what the Court wanted, which was to have Congress set the method of military tribunals and detainee rules rather than the executive branch setting them.

        Habeas Corpus has been suspended before and in a time of war against an enemy of this ilk, it is the logical way to deal with terrorists. Clogging the courts is a terrorist strategy and this eliminates that tactic.

        The wailing over terrorist rights will cost the left another election.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by daleesq8459 (September 30, 2006 9:16 am ET)
             

          Was Abe not a great -- perhaps the greatest president? Did he not hold this country together in tougher times than these? Did he not truly take the advice of this generals?

          The trouble with your logic is one you label someone a terrorist, you can do whatever you want to them. But the evidence will be kept secret. Is that our system?

          Why are we so afraid NOW, when during the Cold War (I grew up "ducking and covering" in elementary school), we had thousands of missles pointed at us? Did we torture then? No. Did we follow the Japanese model and torture them to save our soldiers' lives? No. Did we wholesale brand a group as a grave threat and gas them? No. Did we follow the example of the North Koreans, the Vietnamese, the Khmer Rouge? No. And all of that and more is what has made this country great and different. And people like you want to sacrifice MY liberty for your inane idea of security.

          You -- er, your ideology -- seem to be what's wrong with this country these days. But I, too, am prepared to die for your right to express your ideas. That's what makes me a true American. Americans don't torture. We're better than that. But it will take decades to right the wrongs of this Admin and Congress vis-a-vis our image in this world. We are hated. Absolute power has certainly corrupted absolutely.

          Report Abuse
        • Author by solon (September 30, 2006 9:58 pm ET)
             

          It was suspended during the Civil War and during reconstruction during times of INSURRECTION. For short periods of time. Not thrown out. This is NOT in any way the same sort of situation. Nor does this law have any time period. You cant wait for your chains. No matter what civil liberties you lose you cant wait to cheer for losing them. You want Bush to be Pharoah so badly. Your hatred for freedom is just mystifying

          Report Abuse
        • Author by pete592 (October 01, 2006 4:02 am ET)
             

          If you listen to the left, instead of the Limbaughs, Hannities and Coulters, you'll find that the left is 'wailing' about the rights of our own soldiers who are taken prisoner. Thanks to Bush and the Rethuglicans, we are now officially left with no moral standing for criticizing captors who treat US soldiers inhumanely or condemn them to life in a secret prison with no chance of trial.

          Report Abuse
        • Author by solon (October 01, 2006 8:33 pm ET)
             

          They dont lose them because jackbooted, fascist, thugs like YOU just DECLARE them terrorists, because it helps push your agenda. YOU dont get to define reality, which is fortunate since you find it so hard to actually recognize it. ONCE they are proven to be criminals in any way including terrorists then they can be treated that way. Allowing fascist collaborators like YOU to just DECIDE they are terrorists becuase you say so, therefore allowing them to be treated like criminals without all that messy due process stuff, is an end to the rule of law.

          Report Abuse
    • Author by CarloDiPietro (September 30, 2006 5:22 am ET)
         

      There is no longer any reason for liberals and opponents of this administration to play nice with you. The president you have given your undying support to and reflexively defended in the post-9/11 world has effectively negated the constitutional system that has been the law of the land for over 200 years. There is no longer any ambiguity on what Bush and his company of neo-Trotskyist thugs are. They are traitors to this country, and anyone who continues to support their actions is also a traitor.

      If you still support this president, there are only four possibilities as to why. You are either stupid, ignorant, insane, or evil. You can live the rest of your life, in the rubble that will inevitably be post-Bush America, with the knowledge that it was you who put this frat-boy coward with a messiah complex into office and allowed to ruin our country with your state-worshipping knee-jerk apologetics. You should all be ashamed.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by wesley (September 30, 2006 11:52 am ET)
           

        - If you still support this president, there are only four possibilities as to why. You are either stupid, ignorant, insane, or evil.

        You have just hung those monikers on about 2/3 of both houses of congress...including many from the democrat party.

        Congress followed the ruling from the courts and enacted a law...a law that can be overturned by any subsequent congress. This is not a law of the land decreed by the supreme court.

        Your hatred for Pres.Bush...while passionate...has clouded your vision. It is not "Bush and his company of neo-Trotskyist thugs" that passed this law. It was a bill with strong bi-partisan support.

        If any of your elected representatives voted for this bill...show your conviction and send them a letter stating, "They are traitors to this country, and anyone who continues to support their actions is also a traitor." It's not just your right...but your responsibility to work for the election of candidates who support your views.

        That kind of action is what made...and will keep...America great. Those that promote bug-eyed hate speech will accomplish little.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by dave_chicago (September 30, 2006 2:52 pm ET)
             

          >>"Those that promote bug-eyed hate speech will accomplish little."<<

          That description fits Bush, who the other day said "...[the Democratic Party] has become the party of cutting-and-running."

          Bush's hatred of Democrats has clouded his vision, to use your words.

          Report Abuse
        • Author by left of center (September 30, 2006 4:40 pm ET)
             

          have been derelict in their duty of oversight. 1/4 of Democrats are spineless because they are scared s**tless that if they vote against this they will be labeled as "soft on terror" in the inevitable attack ads. Most of those dems are also in "red" states and are considered "conservative" Democrats. They need to grow a spine. They need to be vocal. They need to get as dirty as the GOP, unfortunately. The time for half measures and polite talk are now long over.

          Report Abuse
    • Author by daleesq8459 (September 30, 2006 9:01 am ET)
         

      I am a constitutionally minded American; served during Vietnam. Saw the Iraq debacle coming from the beginning, but my neocon friends and family were too enamored with Bush to realize that the real plan was to re-write the Constitution.

      The Congress even thinks it can cut the Supreme Court out of its very clear Constituional mandate (the final word on review of laws). I have been telling people for years that the branch they REALLY need to watch is the SC -- and the current composition promises that several of the activists will be with us for perhaps another 30 years.

      We are losing the most important battle of our history since the Rev. and Civil Wars. We are closer and closer to becoming a dictatorship, and, well, as Michael Moore showed us in F 9-11, that's just fine with Bush, so long as he is the dictator. I am shrill for suggesting martial law is the next tool the Admin will use against us?

      And for you Neocons -- careful what you wish for. I have a hunch the Dems will be back strong in '06 and'08, and if they use all the abusive tools that this Admin and Congress and SC have provided, you will SO REGRET your short term "wins."

      But then, there's always the possibility the next elections will be rigged. My great fear is that the Admin is a couple steps ahead of the rest of us.

      Another "extreme irony:" That Second Amendment that gives many liberals conniptions may become very useful to us true Americans who will not tolerate another King George or the like.

      Kudos to Keith, and even Woodward (finally).

      Report Abuse
      • Author by factsrstubborn (September 30, 2006 10:33 am ET)
           

        ... can now be "legally" used to label you an Enemy Combatant! You see, it trumps the ENTIRE CONSTITUTION! !

        Report Abuse
    • Author by jscott (September 30, 2006 10:42 am ET)
         

      reading these many heartfelt and grieving commentaries on the fate of our nation, I can only wonder at the whereabouts of the so-called "liberal media" in the lead-up to this assinine legislation. We have not only been failed by the "Fourth Estate", they have been willing and eager participants in this outrageous attack on OUR (not the turrists) civil liberties. We can only pray that the people bush (lowercase intentional) has placed on the Supreme Court somehow have the courage and integrity to eventually strike down this vicious assault on the American people. And we must continue to be grateful for the efforts of David Brock and MMFA in their fight against right-wing misinformation and governmental propaganda.

      Report Abuse
    • Author by steeve (September 30, 2006 2:41 pm ET)
         

      Hillary will have this power in a couple years. And the war on terror will be really, really long. Are the conservatives still on board?

      The problem with asserting temporary war powers is not the war powers themselves, but in having daily life being declared "wartime".

      Report Abuse
    • Author by gentlemancanuck (September 30, 2006 4:45 pm ET)
         

      I have been reading from this site for about a year now. This recent news of how your government is transforming, really truly frightens me. I hope that you all will rally together and reverse this horrendous situation. Good luck and stay strong.

      Report Abuse
    • Author by mefirst (September 30, 2006 7:06 pm ET)
         

      chasing it's tail.

      Report Abuse
    • Author by EviL Neo CON (September 30, 2006 10:12 pm ET)
         

      Dear author,

      Wow, bet your childhood was dramatizing with that last name...

      no wonder your a pissed off liberal.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by solon (October 01, 2006 8:38 pm ET)
           

        Was marred by ridicule for your blatant ignorance. No wonder you are a moron conservative. IF you ever have anything relevant to add. Something about as likely as Darth Cheney quitting politics to minister to the poor and sick in the Black hole of Calcutta, run it by a six year old to see if it is marginally coherent. So far you havent been withing shouting distance of a reasoned, cogent argument.

        Report Abuse
    • Author by TheSarge (October 01, 2006 1:46 am ET)
         

      What I don't understand is why there aren't millions of people crowding the streets of Washington DC for months on end demanding the resignation of W. I mean, just what kind of abuse of power does he have to do to make all you sheeple wake up and smell the dictatorship?

      Report Abuse
    • Author by my15minutes (October 01, 2006 10:24 am ET)
         

      Sorry to interrupt the flame wars. :-)

      I just wanted to thank MediaMatters for putting this piece together. I have written both my Senators, several media channels, and many others, in regards to this matter, for 2 weeks now.

      I dig through a lot of different resources, from many points of view, and rarely find anything as consistently fact-driven as MM. Which is why the right is scared to debate you openly.

      Report Abuse
    • Author by gentlemancanuck (October 01, 2006 4:24 pm ET)
         

      Wesley, first I apologize for the delay in my response. I was working late last night.

      What frightens me is the following:

      I visit many different websites to garner different perspectives. Under the patriot act your government can seize such material and create a database of individuals who they feel should be flagged as a person of interest.

      If I was to travel to the US for any reason and my name is flagged, this new law allows for my indefinite detention. I could be arbitrarily held by a government who has displayed poor judgment in regards to respecting human rights (abu grahib), and the sovereignty of other countries. One of my countrymen was already sent to Syria (for arbitrary reasons) and was tortured (for arbitrary reasons).

      What is horrendous is the broad scope of this law. Where are the checks and balances which protect the innocent people? A look back at history shows that when governments begin to remove the rights of its population, things turn really ugly really fast.

      If this piece of legislation is passed into law, I would not be surprised to see travel advisory warnings regarding visiting the US.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by EviL Neo CON (October 02, 2006 12:36 am ET)
           

        [link to www.youtube.com]

        Report Abuse
        • Author by MHK (October 02, 2006 9:17 am ET)
             

          Evil - doesn't your mommy monitor your computer usage? Please send me her e-mail address so I write her a stern letter about movng the family computer into the kitchen so she can watch you. She really needs to know about feeble minded children and the dangers of the internet. You might get a dirty letter from a Conservative media personality or government official and god only knows were that could lead.

          Report Abuse
        • Author by solon (October 02, 2006 10:50 am ET)
             

          See Neoidiots post for reference

          Report Abuse
          • Author by EviL Neo CON (October 02, 2006 3:19 pm ET)
               

            Seems a lot more people think Canada sucks... come on... its an american tradition just like apple pie :)

            Still love the signs at health care facilities in Canada that say

            "Please do not commit violence towards health care workers. They are not the reason for your wait."

            And in montreal the french version is next to it.

            In America my health care is free with my job... and no wait... or violence for that matter...

            Report Abuse

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