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"Media Matters"; by Jamison Foser

January 12, 2007 9:27 pm ET
This Week:

The King Of America

Questions journalists should ask Iraq war supporters

The King of America?

MSNBC host Keith Olbermann used his broadcast on Thursday to respond to President Bush's latest failed plan for Iraq:

OLBERMANN: The plan fails militarily. The plan fails symbolically. The plan fails politically. Most important, perhaps, Mr. Bush, the plan fails because it still depends on your credibility. You speak of mistakes and of the responsibility "resting" with you, but you do not admit to making those mistakes. And you offer us nothing to justify this clenched fist towards Iran and Syria.

In fact, when you briefed news correspondents off-the-record before that speech, they were told, once again, "If you knew what we knew -- if you saw what we saw" --

"If you knew what we knew" was how we got into this morass in Iraq in the first place. The problem arose when it turned out that the question wasn't whether or not we knew what you knew, but whether you knew what you knew.

You, sir, have become the president who cried wolf. All that you say about Iraq now could be gospel. All that you say about Iran and Syria now could be prescient and essential. We no longer have a clue, sir. We have heard too many stories.

Olbermann raised a point too often overlooked by his media colleagues: Bush's lies and misstatements may have eroded his credibility to the point that it is impossible for him to govern; impossible for him to function effectively as commander in chief.

We've written several times that the news media has been negligent in ignoring this possibility. In November 2005, for example, we wrote:

With every week bringing new indications that the American people don't approve of or trust their commander in chief, news organizations continue to turn a blind eye toward the obvious questions that this distrust raises.

The Associated Press reports: "Two crucial pillars of President Bush's public support -- perceptions of his honesty and faith in his ability to fight terrorism -- have slipped to their lowest point in the AP-Ipsos poll. ... [S]ix in 10 now say Bush is not honest, and a similar number say his administration does not have high ethical standards."

[...]

And yet news organizations ignore, both in the polls they conduct and in the news reports they publish and broadcast, seemingly obvious follow-up questions about the effects of this widespread distrust of President Bush and of the belief that his administration was dishonest about the reasons for the Iraq war.

News organizations don't ask, for example, whether people are less likely to believe the administration if it argues that military action against another nation is necessary.

Instead, they treat public opinion about the Bush administration's honesty as a political challenge, as something with primarily partisan political effects. But when the majority of the American people think their president is dishonest and has already deliberately misled the nation into war once, that has profound national security implications that demand attention from the media. If, as a result of their belief that the administration was deliberately misleading about Iraq, people won't believe the administration in the future, that makes America less safe.

It wasn't long ago that some of America's leading news organizations thought that a president's deception was cause for resignation. The Chicago Tribune, for example, called for Bill Clinton's resignation in a September 15, 1998, editorial. One reason the Tribune gave was that Clinton's statements about the Monica Lewinsky matter would make it difficult to trust him in the future: "Who will know when he's telling the truth and when he's not, whether he's being sincere or play-acting, whether his word is his bond or just another artful dodge?"

That's a question news organizations should start asking again: "Who will know when he's telling the truth and when he's not?"

Who, indeed?

Bush has announced his intention to escalate a war the majority of Americans want to get out of -- a decision that one senior leader of his own party, Nebraska Sen. Chuck Hagel, called "the most dangerous foreign policy blunder in this country since Vietnam." And, in doing so, he seemed to suggest a possible move against two other nations, Iran and Syria, as Steven Clemons, director of the American Strategy Program at the New America Foundation, has noted on his personal weblog.

Perhaps recognizing the lack of legislative branch support for his policies, Bush has refused to seek congressional authorization for his Iraq escalation, even though three-quarters of Americans think he should seek such approval. And, as Glenn Greenwald, author of The New York Times best-seller, How Would A Patriot Act?, has explained, Bush may not seek congressional authorization before going to war with Iran.

This week, his press secretary declared: "Congress has the power of the purse. The President has the ability to exercise his own authority if he thinks Congress has voted the wrong way."

It's time for the media to start asking -- and try to answer -- some of the most important questions that exist in American democracy.

Has our president squandered the consent of the governed? Is he in danger of doing so? Does he even care, or does he believe he rules by divine right?

Those are weighty questions, the answers to which carry serious consequences.

But these are serious times.

Questions journalists should ask Iraq war supporters

Since Election Day, when voters rejected the Iraq war and gave Democrats convincing victories in both the House and the Senate, Sen. Joe Lieberman -- one of the most prominent supporters of the Iraq war -- has continued to enjoy regular access to the nation's airwaves as a guest on leading political shows.

As we have noted, Lieberman and Sen. John McCain, a fellow supporter of the Iraq war escalation, were the two guests on NBC's Meet the Press the Sunday after the November 2006 elections. Lieberman has also appeared on CBS' Face the Nation and CNN's Late Edition. This weekend, he is set to appear again on Meet the Press.

Given that Lieberman is one of the most prominent (indeed, one of the only) supporters of Bush's expansion of the Iraq war, we offer some questions that should be asked of him -- not only on Meet the Press, but by any journalist interviewing him about Iraq.

Too often, journalists stick to questions like, "Do you agree with President Bush?" and "Do you think 20,000 more troops will really help?" But many of the questions journalists should be asking of Lieberman, of the Bush administration, and of the pundits, who continually tell us we're just six months from success, aren't that simple. Given how often so many people have been so wrong about this war in the past, journalists should ask questions intended to discern why we should listen to them now; how they can be confident that they're right this time. Some of those questions are below; they focus on McCain due to his upcoming appearance on Meet the Press, but most apply to any supporter of the Bush-McCain-Lieberman Iraq war escalation plan.

1. Lieberman said in reaction to Bush's speech: "At the moment, we and our Iraqi allies are not winning in Iraq and the American people are understandably frustrated by the miscalculations, the lack of progress, and the daily scenes of violence and casualties."

To what miscalculations was Lieberman referring? Which miscalculations is he guilty of? What are the consequences of those miscalculations? What has he done to make himself less likely to make such miscalculations again?

2. In a November 2005 op-ed in The Wall Street Journal, Lieberman wrote: "Does America have a good plan for doing this, a strategy for victory in Iraq? Yes we do."

That didn't work out very well. Why and how was Lieberman so wrong? How can he now be sure he isn't wrong again? Why should we trust his judgment?

3. Lieberman has called Bush's plan "our last best hope." What if it doesn't work? What is Plan B?

4. The January 9 edition of The Washington Times quoted Lieberman as saying "In war, there are two exit strategies. One is called victory. The other is called defeat. ... America has too much on the line in Iraq to accept defeat."

What does "victory" mean? How will we know when it is achieved? Is there anything worse than "defeat"? What price is too high to pay for victory? How will we know when we've paid it?

5. Lieberman recently said that Congress should not interfere in Bush's plans for escalation: "I think this is a time for the president to be president and Congress to respect that part of the authority of the commander in chief and all hope that it works."

Under what scenario does Lieberman think should Congress intervene? What would Bush have to do in order for Lieberman to support congressional intervention? What would have to happen in Iraq? What gives Lieberman confidence that Bush knows what he's doing?

6. According to the Los Angeles Times on January 10, "Lieberman ... indicated that he was cool to the idea of screening all shipping containers. 'We're going to look at it,' he said. 'But it's not practical to impose it immediately.'"

Yet, as Media Matters for America has noted, a bipartisan group of senators including Chuck Schumer and Norm Coleman have pointed to Hong Kong's success in screening containers as evidence that such a system can work. Why does Lieberman think it is "not practical" to carry out this recommendation of the 9-11 Commission?

7. McCain recently said: "I'm not sure what the point would be" to raising taxes to pay for the Iraq escalation. And Bloomberg reported this week: "Iraq is the only major U.S. conflict, except for the 1846-48 Mexican-American War, in which citizens haven't been asked to make a special financial sacrifice. President George W. Bush opposes tax increases, even as the costs escalate far beyond predictions and he calls for more troops."

How does Lieberman plan to pay for the escalation of the Iraq war? Does he want to raise taxes? If not, what spending would he cut?

8. In December, after a visit to the Middle East, Lieberman wrote an op-ed in The Washington Post in which he argued for an escalation. Lieberman based his argument on conversations he claimed to have had with members of the military during a visit to Iraq:

After speaking with our military commanders and soldiers there, I strongly believe that additional U.S. troops must be deployed to Baghdad and Anbar province -- an increase that will at last allow us to establish security throughout the Iraqi capital, hold critical central neighborhoods in the city, clamp down on the insurgency and defeat al-Qaeda in that province.

In Baghdad and Ramadi, I found that it was the American colonels, even more than the generals, who were asking for more troops. In both places these soldiers showed a strong commitment to the cause of stopping the extremists. One colonel followed me out of the meeting with our military leaders in Ramadi and said with great emotion, "Sir, I regret that I did not have the chance to speak in the meeting, but I want you to know on behalf of the soldiers in my unit and myself that we believe in why we are fighting here and we want to finish this fight. We know we can win it."

Lieberman -- and McCain -- frequently invoke their purported conversations with members of the military in Iraq to support their stance, and they are almost never asked for detail by interviewers. Some obvious questions:

  • How many "military commanders and soldiers" did Lieberman speak to?

  • Were they unanimous? Did he encounter anyone who didn't think more troops would help; who thought the United States should get out of Iraq? What percentage opposes the escalation or thinks the United States should begin to withdraw from Iraq?

  • How did Lieberman come into contact with the "commanders and soldiers"? Were they a random sampling or a hand-picked group? Was Lieberman alone or accompanied by Pentagon handlers?

GOP Rep. Heather Wilson also recently went to Iraq -- and came away with far different conclusions than Lieberman. As Greg Sargent has noted, Republican Sen. Susan Collins was on the same trip Lieberman went on, during which she also talked to troops. She concluded that "it would be a mistake to send more troops to Baghdad." Sargent has also noted that even Oliver North said the troops he talked to in Iraq oppose escalation. North wrote:

McCain and Lieberman talked to many of the same officers and senior NCOs I covered for FOX News during my most recent trip to Iraq. Not one of the soldiers, sailors, airmen, Guardsmen or Marines I interviewed told me that they wanted more U.S. boots on the ground. In fact, nearly all expressed just the opposite: "We don't need more American troops, we need more Iraqi troops," was a common refrain. They are right.

Did Lieberman talk to different people than Collins and North talked to? How can he be confident that he got a representative sample of on-the-ground opinion?

9. In his November 2005 Wall Street Journal op-ed, Lieberman wrote, among other things, "I have just returned from my fourth trip to Iraq in the past 17 months and can report real progress there. ... Progress is visible and practical. ... There are many more cars on the streets, satellite television dishes on the roofs, and literally millions more cell phones in Iraqi hands than before. ... Last week, I was thrilled to see a vigorous political campaign, and a large number of independent television stations and newspapers covering it."

But the day after Lieberman's op-ed ran, the Los Angeles Times reported:

[T]he U.S. military is secretly paying Iraqi newspapers to publish stories written by American troops in an effort to burnish the image of the U.S. mission in Iraq.

...

Many of the articles are presented in the Iraqi press as unbiased news accounts written and reported by independent journalists. The stories trumpet the work of U.S. and Iraqi troops, denounce insurgents and tout U.S.-led efforts to rebuild the country.

Lieberman frequently pointed to the "independent television stations and newspapers" he saw in Iraq as evidence of how well things were going there. But those media outlets apparently weren't so "independent"; they were part of a U.S. propaganda campaign. As we noted at the time:

The possible effect that U.S. propaganda efforts aimed at the Iraqi people have apparently had on a senior U.S. senator is not a trivial matter. Lieberman bases his view of what our Iraq policy should be in part on his view of the progress being made there; his view of the progress being made there is likewise dependent in part on what he saw of the Iraqi media -- a media that, it turns out, may not be so "independent" after all. Thus one of the most prominent and influential backers of the Bush administration's Iraq policy -- one whose support President Bush talked about during his November 30 speech -- might be basing his support in part on Pentagon propaganda.

Lieberman's views of the situation in Iraq, in turn, drove news coverage about the war for much of the week: He made multiple appearances on CNN on the same day, appearances the network replayed and quoted throughout the week; he appeared on Fox News and on MSNBC and was mentioned in The Washington Post, the Associated Press, and several other major news outlets.

So news about Iraq this week was largely shaped by Lieberman's positive assessment of progress in Iraq, an assessment that relied in part on his having seen Iraq's "independent" media for himself. But the Los Angeles Times made clear just how hollow claims of a free and independent Iraqi media are.

So: In November 2005, Lieberman went to Iraq, looked around, thought he saw some independent newspapers, talked to a few people, and concluded that "[p]rogress is visible and practical."

As even Bush now admits, Iraq is, in fact, a mess. What steps, then, did Lieberman take to ensure that he make a more accurate assessment of the state of things during his December 2006 trip to Iraq? What did he do differently that time? What did he do to ensure that he saw reality, rather than simply seeing what the Pentagon wanted him to see? What lessons did he learn from his previous mistakes? Why should people trust that he'd gotten it right that time -- especially when Sen. Collins reached the opposite conclusion from the same trip?

10. During his post-election appearance on Meet the Press, host Tim Russert asked Lieberman: "Can you keep a country at war that doesn't want to be there?" Lieberman responded: "You can't, and that's why we need to form a bipartisan consensus for victory in Iraq, for success in Iraq, which is still attainable."

Two months later, the American people still don't want to be in Iraq, don't support the Bush-McCain-Lieberman escalation, and don't have confidence in Bush's handling of the war. How much longer does Lieberman think he can "keep a country at war that doesn't want to be there"?

11. This week, in support of Bush's announcement of his escalation plan, Lieberman stated that "excessive partisan division and rancor at home only weakens our will to prevail in this war."

But the bipartisan, and broadly popular position, is opposition to the Bush-McCain-Lieberman escalation.

If Lieberman thinks partisan division is so bad, shouldn't he join in with the growing number of members of Congress of both parties who oppose the escalation?

How does Lieberman reconcile his statement that "partisan division" is bad with his opposition to the most bipartisan position having anything to do with Iraq -- opposition to escalation?

12. The New York Times reported on January 5: "Mr. Lieberman said he hopes the president's proposals do not set off 'partisan political combat or some kind of inside-the-Beltway compromise.' "


Lieberman, then, warns of "partisan division" ... and yet opposes "compromise." How does he reconcile the two? Does he simply think everybody should do what he tells them?

13. Lieberman issued a statement in support of the Iraq war escalation in which he concluded: "Weakness only emboldens our enemy, but united resolution will make our nation safer for generations to come."

Does Lieberman really think those who disagree with his position are "weak"?

How does he reconcile calling those with whom he disagrees "weak" with his denunciation of "excessive partisan division and rancor"?

14. Lieberman's office announced this week that despite his election-year rhetoric, he would not use his new post as chairman of the Senate Homeland Security and Government Affairs Committee to investigate the Bush administration's bungling of Hurricane Katrina. Newsweek reported:

Last year, when he was running for re-election in Connecticut, Lieberman was a vocal critic of the administration's handling of Katrina. He was especially dismayed by its failure to turn over key records that could have shed light on internal White House deliberations about the hurricane, including those involving President Bush.

[...]

But now that he chairs the homeland panel -- and is in a position to subpoena the records -- Lieberman has decided not to pursue the material, according to Leslie Phillips, the senator's chief committee spokeswoman. "The senator now intends to focus his attention on the future security of the American people and other matters and does not expect to revisit the White House's role in Katrina," she told NEWSWEEK.

[...]

Asked whether Lieberman's new stand might feed complaints that he has become too close to the White House, Phillips responded: "The senator is an independent Democrat and answers only to the people who elected him to office and to his own conscience."

Last year, Lieberman said he could not give "high marks to the Executive branch for its response to our investigation. The problems begin at the White House, where there has been a near total lack of cooperation that has made it impossible, in my opinion, for us to do the thorough investigation we have a responsibility to do. ... They have opposed efforts to interview their personnel. And they have hindered our ability to obtain information from other federal agencies regarding White House actions in response to Katrina. ... I hope the Committee will continue to pursue all these unanswered questions asked of the Executive branch until we have the information to answer the questions that must be answered."

Now, Lieberman won't use his new subpoena power to seek those answers. What has changed? Why does he no longer believe the committee has a "responsibility" to conduct a "thorough investigation"? Or was Lieberman simply grandstanding last year in an attempt to mollify Democratic voters?

Louisiana Democratic Sen. Mary Landrieu campaigned for Lieberman last October, saying, "I do believe that Sen. Lieberman's record in the Senate justifies my support of him, not only what he's done for Connecticut, but what he's done for Louisiana, what he's done for the nation." Did Lieberman discuss his decision not to pursue the Katrina investigation with Landrieu?

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    • Author by leatherhelmet (January 12, 2007 10:26 pm ET)
         

      a bunch of liberal hogwash.

      "Since Election Day, when voters rejected the Iraq war and gave Democrats convincing victories in both the House and the Senate"

      Voters also elected George W. Bush and there was a convincing Senate victory of a one seat margin. There is no liberal mandate and if you think there is you should be ripping your own party to defund the war instead of this pathetic attempt at swaying the media.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by mefirst (January 12, 2007 10:58 pm ET)
           

        they picked up six seats from the republicans, and only a third of the senate is up for election at any one time. as always the hogwash is yours.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by carlileb5935 (January 13, 2007 7:07 am ET)
             

          It's called "facts," Leatherhelmet. Checked the numbers lately?

          Report Abuse
      • Author by dave_chicago (January 13, 2007 12:12 am ET)
           

        >>"Voters also elected George W. Bush"<<

        Not in 2000 they didn't.

        Bush is a miserable, pathetic failure, who would be clearing brush on his so-called "ranch" were it not for 9/11. His exit from office cannot come too soon.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by Limit Corp. Ownership (January 13, 2007 1:49 pm ET)
             

          The exit polls in Florida in 2000 showed Gore winning by 7.3 %.

          Exit polls are very accurate, and used to verify the honesty of elections in Third World countries.

          The 2000 election in Florida wasn't even close, even with all the voter suppression and voter intimidation that went on.

          Report Abuse
          • Author by grhino (January 14, 2007 10:15 am ET)
               

            1) Exit polls showed Bush and Kerry even in Mississippi in 2004. Do you really think that they ran even in that state?? Didn't think so

            2) Never been 1 substantiated case of voter suppression/voter intimidation. Not one. I'd like to see some specific details on this (although I realize I will be waiting awhile because they don't actually exist).

            3) You're partially correct; the 2000 election in Florida wouldn't have been that close had the networks not called it before polls closed in the western part of the state costing Bush an estimated 10,000-15,000 votes.

            Report Abuse
            • Author by solon (January 14, 2007 7:48 pm ET)
                 

              The anouncement came less than an hour before the polls closed you are telling me that 10 or 15,000 people waited until the last half hour before the polls closed watching TV were just about to rush out and vote at the last second and saw it called then decided not to? Rightwing propaganda with no possibility of being substantiated. Now what WAS substantiated was how the votes were cast and if all valid votes were counted Gore won by ANY counting standard and that is with the Palm Beach county fiasco (not claiming it was purposeful) that cost Gore in the nieghborhood of 15,000 votes.

              Report Abuse
              • Author by grhino (January 15, 2007 12:19 pm ET)
                   

                Alright, seriously, how do you guys just blatantly lie without regard for the truth?? Seriously, aren't you the people that consistently claim "Bush lies" night and day, yet you have no problem lying yourself. It's almost comical.

                Myth: "if all valid votes were counted Gore won by ANY counting standard "

                Truth:

                Who would have won if all disputed ballots - including those rejected by machines because they had more than one vote for president - had been recounted by hand?

                Answer: Bush, under the 2 most widely used standards; Gore, under the 2 least used.

                Myth: The anouncement came less than an hour before the polls closed you are telling me that 10 or 15,000 people waited until the last half hour before the polls closed watching TV were just about to rush out and vote at the last second and saw it called then decided not to? Rightwing propaganda with no possibility of being substantiated.

                Truth: Numerous studies confirmed this. Even a study commissioned by Democratic strategist Bob Beckel concluded Mr. Bush suffered a net loss of up to 8,000 votes in the western Panhandle after Florida was called for Mr. Gore. Note the word: Democratic. I think that pretty much shows how much of a liar you are.

                Also, read about 1 particular individual who didn't vote because of the early call here

                [link to www.papillonsartpalace.com]

                Report Abuse
                • Author by mefirst (January 15, 2007 12:49 pm ET)
                     

                  he argues against evolution, and supports a lot of conservative ideas.

                  Report Abuse
                • Author by open_mind (January 15, 2007 4:43 pm ET)
                     

                  Got a link to that "study"? It would be nice to see the assumptions and methodology used. Looks pretty much like what us engineers call a WAG.

                  Linking to one annecdote that may or may not even be true does not prove your point either.

                  Speculation served up as fact.

                  Report Abuse
            • Author by greekfurnace (January 15, 2007 11:26 am ET)
                 

              ...never had a Presidency election decided by the Supreme Court. Why did it happen in 2000? Gore won. Even the most hard-line right wingers admit that these days... the patented response (by you) should be, "Aaawww, c'mon! Stop crying over spilled milk!"

              You need to review your notes.

              Report Abuse
              • Author by grhino (January 15, 2007 12:24 pm ET)
                   

                "Why did it happen in 2000? "

                1) Al Gore was so desperate to hold onto power and become president that engaged in completely unethical tactics to make the margin closer than it should have been---requesting unconstitutional hand recounts in select counties, throwing out ballots of military members serving overseas (including those trying to rescue the USS Cole).

                2) Networks early call as Gore for the winner cost Bush 8,000-15,000 votes

                3) Democratic voters are too stupid to know how to fill out a ballot.

                "Gore won. "

                No, actually it looks like George Bush won by my standards :

                2,912,790 - George Bush 2,912,253 - Al Gore

                Although maybe your definition of "winning" isn't whoever receives the most votes...

                "You need to review your notes."

                I think you need to review your facts.

                Report Abuse
                • Author by mefirst (January 15, 2007 12:42 pm ET)
                     

                  gore did what he was allowed to do under florida law, request recounts in any county he wanted. gore also agreed to a later statewide recount. bush refused. and gore agreed to allow any military ballots to count, even those dated after the deadline. it was the bush campaign that sent lawyers to the election boards in gore leaning counties and said all overseas ballots had to meet all legal requirements. in turn they sent lawyers to bush leaning counties to argue that all ballots had to count or the election officials could be prosecuted. and all those banshees pounding on the doors and windows of the room where miami-dade officials were hand counting, and screaming "let us in"? all republican congressional staffers sent down to pose as florida citizens.

                  Report Abuse
        • Author by grhino (January 14, 2007 10:22 am ET)
             

          This is a perfect example of the typical liberal/progressive. They're still upset about the 2000 election. They still believe that Al Gore won (even though 2 state recounts showed he didn't) and numerous newspaper studies showed that Bush would have won

          *if Gore had gotten the manual recounts in 4 counties he had requested

          *under 3 of the 4 standards if the US Supreme Court had not stopped the statewide recount of undervotes

          *under the 2 most widely used standards (out of 4) if all votes (under & over) had been recounted statewide.

          [link to www.usatoday.com]

          "Quit your bitching and whining and throwing a fit, Get over it.........GET OVER IT."

          Report Abuse
          • Author by mefirst (January 14, 2007 12:21 pm ET)
               

            setting all the other stuff aside, that most people in florida went to the polls intending to vote for al gore?

            Report Abuse
            • Author by grhino (January 14, 2007 3:33 pm ET)
                 

              not sure what your definition of "most" people is (i.e. 51%+ or 66%+---did you mean more people?), but I guess sure, its reasonable to say that more people went to the polls intending to vote for Gore (based only on 1 exit poll). Last time I checked though, elections were based on results, not intentions.

              Report Abuse
              • Author by mefirst (January 14, 2007 5:07 pm ET)
                   

                i realize it's the official total that counts, but the fact is that there is a lot more evidence than "one poll" [two polls election morning had gore winning by 2-3 percent] that provide pretty solid evidence that if not for bad ballot design, gore would have won a convincing victory. after all, the link you provided, thanks, was headlined "florida voter error cost gore the election". because of mainly the "butterfly" ballot in palm beach county, and the "caterpillar" ballot in duval co, gore lost "15,000 to 25,000 votes" according to that study. and the palm beach post in a separate study found that the butterfly ballot cost gore about 8,000 or so votes. as for your contention that the networks cost bush 10,000 to 15,000 votes by calling the state before the polls closed in the panhandle, that did not occur until 750 pm, ten minutes before the polls closed in that area. i find it a little hard to believe that many people even heard it. and there were other races on the ballot, including a close race for an open senate seat. so we all know the official tally, but the wrong guy sits in the white house.

                Report Abuse
                • Author by mefirst (January 14, 2007 7:31 pm ET)
                     

                  there is always the precinct of 600 voters in volusia county that reported later in the evening, and which gave gore a negative 16,000 votes. that was figured into the large lead that caused the networks, led by fox, to call the state for bush, and which caused gore to call bush to concede. it was after that mistake? was corrected that gore called bush back and said wait a minute. it's all in jeffrey toobin's book "too close to call", as well as a thousand web sites.

                  Report Abuse
              • Author by Limit Corp. Ownership (January 15, 2007 12:12 am ET)
                   

                Al Gore won Florida in 2000. Non-partisan people who have looked at this have overwhelmingly agreed that Gore won Florida in 2000.

                Had the Supreme Court not stepped in--and the State of Florida been allowed to conduct a recount (as Florida wanted to do), Al Gore would have won convincingly.

                Try to take an honest look at this, and not see everything thru the filter of some far-right nutball website.

                Report Abuse
                • Author by grhino (January 15, 2007 12:06 pm ET)
                     

                  What is it with you people and truth?

                  Myth: "Al Gore won Florida in 2000." Truth: False. George Bush won FLorida by 537 votes. If Gore won Florida he would have become 43rd president.

                  Myth: "Had the Supreme Court not stepped in--and the State of Florida been allowed to conduct a recount (as Florida wanted to do), Al Gore would have won convincingly. " Truth: From USA Today/Miami Herald study:

                  Who would have won if the U.S. Supreme Court had not stopped the hand recount of undervotes, which are ballots that registered no machine-readable vote for president? Answer: Bush, under 3 of 4 standards.

                  [link to www.usatoday.com]

                  I mean seriously, that statement you just made is false. Flat out false. There is no truthfulness to it whatsoever. Go look at the article and read the USA Today/Miami Herald study. It reaches the exact opposite conclusion of what you are claiming to be true. How do you lie so much???

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by mefirst (January 15, 2007 12:31 pm ET)
                       

                    but you said "you people", can you point out anything i said that was incorrect.

                    Report Abuse
          • Author by solon (January 14, 2007 8:38 pm ET)
               

            I went to the NORC site myself and looked at their raw data, it showed that if all valid votes were counted Gore won by ANY counting scenario

            Here is a Washington Post analysis of the NORC data

            [link to www.aei.org]

            Notice ALL the scenarios using ALL ballots have Gore winning

            Review of ALL ballots

            Standard set by each county canvassing board during their survey

            Winner Gore 171 votes

            Fully punched chads and limited marks on optical ballots

            Winner Gore 115 votes

            Any dimples or optical mark

            Winner Gore 107 votes

            One corner of chad detached or optical mark

            Winner Gore 60 votes

            Report Abuse
            • Author by grhino (January 15, 2007 12:28 pm ET)
                 

              how many times do I have to type this for you to believe it???

              USA TODAY/MIAMI HERALD STUDY--EXAMINING UNDERVOTES & OVERVOTES

              [link to www.usatoday.com]

              Who would have won if all disputed ballots - including those rejected by machines because they had more than one vote for president - had been recounted by hand? Answer: Bush, under the 2 most widely used standards; Gore, under the 2 least used.

              Who would have won if all disputed ballots - including those rejected by machines because they had more than one vote for president - had been recounted by hand? Answer: Bush, under the 2 most widely used standards; Gore, under the 2 least used.

              Who would have won if all disputed ballots - including those rejected by machines because they had more than one vote for president - had been recounted by hand? Answer: Bush, under the 2 most widely used standards; Gore, under the 2 least used.

              Who would have won if all disputed ballots - including those rejected by machines because they had more than one vote for president - had been recounted by hand? Answer: Bush, under the 2 most widely used standards; Gore, under the 2 least used.

              Who would have won if all disputed ballots - including those rejected by machines because they had more than one vote for president - had been recounted by hand? Answer: Bush, under the 2 most widely used standards; Gore, under the 2 least used.

              Who would have won if all disputed ballots - including those rejected by machines because they had more than one vote for president - had been recounted by hand? Answer: Bush, under the 2 most widely used standards; Gore, under the 2 least used.

              Who would have won if all disputed ballots - including those rejected by machines because they had more than one vote for president - had been recounted by hand? Answer: Bush, under the 2 most widely used standards; Gore, under the 2 least used.

              Who would have won if all disputed ballots - including those rejected by machines because they had more than one vote for president - had been recounted by hand? Answer: Bush, under the 2 most widely used standards; Gore, under the 2 least used.

              Who would have won if all disputed ballots - including those rejected by machines because they had more than one vote for president - had been recounted by hand? Answer: Bush, under the 2 most widely used standards; Gore, under the 2 least used.

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              • Author by mefirst (January 15, 2007 1:04 pm ET)
                   

                in a consortium led by the n y times and, i think, the chicago tribune, and they examined nine different scenarios and gore won in the majority of them.

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                • Author by greekfurnace (January 15, 2007 2:46 pm ET)
                     

                  Your responses are helpful... However, GRINO (for a guy who claims that the liberals 'won't give it up') sure is hot under the collar... If I had voted for Bush in 2000, I'd be hiding under the table right now, embarrassed as hell that this joker even got 'elected'. Let the 'facts' of this guy's presidency tell the tale. But, that's my opinion.

                  Report Abuse
              • Author by solon (January 15, 2007 2:57 pm ET)
                   

                The NORC data shows different, I gave the raw data. I have done this before. I used to have archived the Washington Times article that admitted this directly. They can say what they want, NORC is the most widely accepted source and they say different.

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          • Author by greekfurnace (January 15, 2007 11:28 am ET)
               

            That's the patented response... Whew! I feel better now.

            Report Abuse
    • Author by HuntingtonBeachLefty (January 13, 2007 12:45 am ET)
         

      "Since Election Day, when voters rejected the Iraq war and gave Democrats convincing victories in both the House and the Senate"

      This stuff happened in 2006. Bush didn't get elected in 2006.Totally different election day, the one where people got a little less scared and a little more thinky.

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    • Author by tex (January 13, 2007 3:04 am ET)
         

      ... for the MOST CONSISTENTLY WRONG pundit, who is seen daily in the Media, is William Kristol.

      Why on earth would anyone seriously listen to this man? He is held up by the rightwing as some sort of sage, an "expert" on something or other, yet everything that escapes his lips turns out to be 180 degrees WRONG.

      So he said something today. The only thing we can be sure of is that it's WRONG. And he's for the escalation of the war ... what does this tell us?

      Report Abuse
      • Author by carlileb5935 (January 13, 2007 7:09 am ET)
           

        He was kind of born into the role...although you'd think he'd be a little better versed in history, through his mother's side.

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    • Author by steeve (January 13, 2007 7:46 am ET)
         

      If we can't afford to lose this war, let's reinstate the draft and send 2 million soldiers over there. Since we aren't doing that, I can only assume that we can afford to lose this war.

      Since defeat is okay, let's do it now and save a few lives.

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    • Author by Watcher_IL (January 13, 2007 10:02 am ET)
         

      Which can fail in Iraq. It is only one person, and that person is George W. Bush. This is a war of his own making. It is the corrrnestone of his imagined legacy. He only talks about winning and victory because anything else would prove his presidency to be another belly-up business he'd have to live with. This war isn't about terrorism or national security, its always been about George W. Bush getting out from under the shadow of his father, grandfather and brother. There's a family psychodrama being played out in the White House ladies and gentlemen, and we the people of the United States are tied up in seats in the front row. And most tragically, over 3,000 of our finest men and women have had to pay the ultimate price of admission.

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      • Author by IRONY 101 (January 13, 2007 10:34 am ET)
           

        The Iraq war has now become a vehicle for the attempted rehabilitation of George W. Bush's presidency. If Bush had one ounce of honor and integrity he would apologize to the American people for having brought us into the Iraq quagmire which has cost us so many lives and billions of wasted dollars that could have been spent elsewhere (How about New Orleans, for example?). If Bush was an honorable man he would resign in shame instead of wasting more lives and money in another insane attempt to prove he was right. Bush stands out as the number one example of why it is so important to elect public officials on the basis of qualifications... not personality, religious beliefs or party loyalty. This is indeed a sad chapter in American history... and it's not over.

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      • Author by Dem02020 (January 13, 2007 11:05 pm ET)
           

        It's true, that beyond the Bush administration, that Iraq is nobody's "failure"... just the Bush administration's, and of course primarily George W. Bush.

        Iraq is where he and they have failed everybody, the American People and most particularly the U.S. Armed Forces.

        How can Iraq be any "failure" of the U.S. Armed Forces?

        It can not.

        The U.S. Armed Forces have not "failed" in any way to Protect and Defend the National Security of the United States of America, in Iraq...

        ...for the sole reason that there is no National Security concern to the U.S., in Iraq... and there never was, ever.

        As far as whatever other "mission" you'd think the U.S. Armed Forces were on in Iraq (and I'd have thought that the National Security of the U.S. was their only mission, in all places and at all times)...

        Whatever other "mission" the U.S. Armed Forces were on in Iraq, whether it be to verify the non-existence of WMDs (and prove that 'pre-invasion intelligence' claim of the administration's to be FALSE or FALSIFIED)...

        ...or whether it be to topple saddam's "regime", and capture and/or kill him and his legacy to that "regime", including his sons...

        ...or whether it be to provide as much internal security to Iraq as possible, while it forms a new national government and elects a national assembly and drafts and ratifies a constitution...

        All those "missions" (none of which involves the National Security of the U.S... no, non-existent WMDs do not threaten our National Security, no)...

        All those "missions" are accomplished, at a cost of many hundreds of billions of dollars to the American People (which may well have been the true reason for all this madness: All that money!)...

        ...and at a cost of the lives of 3,017 of our Sons and Daughters in the U.S. Armed Forces.

        And so no, it's not their "failure"... Iraq is no failure whatsoever by the U.S. Armed Forces in Iraq.

        Iraq, as a scheme of death and greed (hundreds of billions of dollars worth of greed), is a failure of George W. Bush, and his administration of agents for the defense industry.

        And it's about as infuriating a dishonor and a stain to the sacrifices and the Honor of the U.S. Armed Forces in Iraq, to even suggest that they have failed in any way at all...

        ...which is a thing made more infuriating and more dishonorable, when such "failure" is suggested by the president and his administration... which they routinely do, as a way of passing the blame (witness the replacement of Gen. Abizaid and Gen. Casey).

        And besides which, it's also a mark of idiocy and ignorance to suggest the "failure" of the U.S. Armed Forces mission in Iraq...

        ...their mission again, being in all places and at all times, the National Security of the United States of America...

        ...which is a mission not found in Iraq, as nearly all the American People know.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by Dem02020 (January 13, 2007 11:38 pm ET)
             

          Should any say that the "mission" that remains for the U.S. Armed Forces in Iraq, is to build some kind of "democracy" there...

          ...then I say that is not their mission... that is not, and cannot ever be, the mission of the U.S. Armed Forces: To "build" some kind of "democracy" in Iraq or any other foreign nation.

          If such a thing as that were the "mission" of any part of our Federal Government, it would be the mission of the U.S. State Department.

          Again, the mission of the U.S. Armed Forces is the National Security of the U.S.... to Protect and Defend the American People.

          If our Sons and Daughters were to sacrifice their lives to "secure the Blessings of Liberty" for anybody at all, it would be to "secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity", and not to the people of Iraq...

          ...so says the Constitution of the United States of America, of which the U.S. Armed Forces are Sworn to Preserve, Protect, and Defend... as is the president also.

          And should you say instead, that we cannot leave Iraq, for fear of what it is that may then constitute and inhabit their government, and the control and administration of their country...

          ...then I'd say "What...

          What do you mean... that something worse than saddam, and his 'regime', may take control of Iraq?

          We cannot leave Iraq because something worse than saddam waits in the wings?"

          I say leave Iraq to Iraqis... whatever Iraqis that administer their government... who cares and so what...

          What are we to fear they'll get their hands on... the WMDs?

          How many more hundreds of billions of dollars and thousands of U.S. lives are to be spent and sacrificed, in this administration's apparent fixation with the administration of Iraq's government.

          I say leave Iraq to Iraqis... as soon as possible.

          I say our administration has no credibility in the matter, and is not to be believed by the American People, when they attempt to describe some type of horror that shall then control the government of Iraq...

          ..a horror I guess, as bad or worse than saddam...

          ...a horror like WMDs.

          Leave Iraq to the Iraqis... as soon as possible.

          Report Abuse
    • Author by Limit Corp. Ownership (January 13, 2007 2:03 pm ET)
         

      is fair.

      He has on Chuck Hagel, Chris Dodd, Lieberman and Jon Kyl.

      The problem will likely be Tim's extremely poor on non-existent moderating skills. I saw a panel of Tim's a couple months ago--with four guests--and it gradually descended into the dreaded "Political Food Fight," with people interupting and babbling on too long (monopolizing the airtime), and shouting each other down. And these were supposedly dignified Congressmen.

      Tim was in no way up to the task of controlling his guests, and his show suffered greatly because of it.

      I'd put these guys on a timer: give em 40 seconds and then buzz em and move on. Anyone who interupts has to sit in corner for 10 minutes with a dunce cap on.

      Report Abuse
    • Author by swburns2778 (January 13, 2007 2:10 pm ET)
         

      "people won't believe the administration in the future, that makes America less safe."

      Sorry, but I don't get this. Distrust of this administration is the only thing we have to keep us safe. And distrust of the government, generally, is a healthy thing in a democracy, which we claim to be.

      What Foser presumably means is that Bush's lies will make it harder to a future President (maybe a Democratic one?) to get public support for the next war.

      Fine by me. Governments always lie, and they lie the most when "preparing" the public for war. Remember the Gulf of Tonkin? Remember those hundreds of Kuwaiti babies left to die on the hospital floor, after being removed from their incubators by heartless Iraqi soldiers?

      Destroying the public's "faith" in our "leaders" is George W. Bush's greatest contribution to our country and to humanity in general. And for that I say, "Thank you, President Bush!"

      Report Abuse
      • Author by steeve (January 13, 2007 5:26 pm ET)
           

        It'd never happen under this administration, and there are scenarios where it would need to happen.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by mefirst (January 13, 2007 7:38 pm ET)
             

          is that you cannot trust this administration on anything. whether through outright lying or total incompetence, they seem incapable of making any sort of decision that has anything to do with really protecting the country. if there is one thought that is good to think about, and it's about the only thing when it comes to this adminsitration, it's the certainty that history is going to be a very harsh judge of mr. bush's ego driven "god appointed me to lead you" stewardship. there are constant stories that bush sees himself as a lincoln or churchill who will be vindicated in the end. just further proof of his insufferable arrogance and total lack of any understanding of the world. hopefully, bush will be the last of the cowboy presidencies....the idea that we're america and we're going to kick your ass and you're gonna like it. bush is the very antithesis of what this country can be at it's best. anyone remember when we were actually looked up to?

          Report Abuse
          • Author by mefirst (January 14, 2007 10:09 am ET)
               

            nothing to worry about, the titanic is the safest ship afloat, nothing to...... kind of like listening to the weekly pukefest on fox sunday. i took a break for a couple weeks and lo and behold, nothing has changed. kristol says we should announce we're "going in big" and we're going to win. and brit hume said dissent is aiding the enemy. how about this deal boys? get something, anything at all, correct on this fiasco that you have supported for four years, and i might be inclined to give you a listen. til then, you can march off that cliff by yourself.

            Report Abuse
      • Author by LarryE (January 14, 2007 6:19 pm ET)
           

        ...about government lying. "Question authority" is more than a slogan or a bumper sticker, it's part of the duty of a citizen.

        However, in fairness, I also wanted to say that I think what was being referred to here is the "cry wolf" idea: The more you lie, the more you mislead, the harder it will be to get anyone to believe you in the event a real threat does appear.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by mefirst (January 14, 2007 7:33 pm ET)
             

          i got his point and was agreeing. if this administration says it's raining better look out the window yourself.

          Report Abuse
    • Author by navy_guy (January 13, 2007 10:00 pm ET)
         

      We all seem to banter about and relish the opportune times WHEN we can respond to the disinformation of the day. Whether it is a frontal assault on the greatest foreign policy blunder ever undertaken by a most mis-guided, corrupt and unethical administration OR responding to the raving lunacy of the likes of Senators McCain and Joe Lieberman, NOTHING at least to this point in time will deter an administration HELL-BENT on igniting a conflagration of biblical proportions in total defiance of long-standing treaties, codes of honor..........AND against the wishes of the American people up TO AND INCLUDING THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF.

      It wasn't enough for the Bushites and the NeoConmen to dismiss the early admonitions of General Shinseki referencing the number of troops THAT would be needed in order to secure the peace in Iraq once hostilities ended. If my memory serves me right, the General announced some 500,000, and that was just for starters. Since Shinseki was forced to retire FOR telling the TRUTH...... WE can now ADD General Abizaid, and General Casey to the list.

      We ALL know what has transpired since. I, for one am getting quite tired when forced to hear such vacuous statement like 'Surge', and 'Iraqi Security Forces', there are essentially NONE that matter. Blah, blah, blah.

      So, what are WE to do? The answer really when you come right down to it is a LEGAL ONE. I came across no better a summary than what is listed here:

      [link to www.westpointgradsagainstthewar.org]

      One young LT, Ehren Watada IS the only officer to date WHO has remained steadfast to his OATH, His Conscience and no doubt probably his GOD by refusing orders to Iraq based on the illegalities so enumerated in the above link. His stance is a courageous one INDEED for he knows what a conviction may entail with ALL the repercussions. But US former Associate Supreme Court Justice and Chief Prosecutor at the Nuremberg Tribunals, Robert H. Jackson succinctly laid out his case aginst "Aggressive War' WHICH this administration with the urging of the NeoConmen have blighted, stained and dishonored the finest traditions of the US Military.

      For that, They deserve our unmitigated CONTEMPT.

      Report Abuse
    • Author by solon (January 15, 2007 2:53 pm ET)
         

      I went to the NORC site myself back when the raw data was still available there. I even linked to this at this site a year or so ago when this subject came up. I also read the original NYTimes article on this at that time, under the heading Bush wins Florida it said directly that if both undervotes AND overvotes were counted Gore won BY ANY COUNTING SCENARIO. Later in this thread I give the raw data. There really isnt any doubt about this. IF all valid votes are counted over and undervotes Gore won by any counting scenario as long as you take the NORC data as valid. You can argue this forever, this fact just really isnt in dispute

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    Jamison Foser is a Senior Fellow at Media Matters for America.