"Media Matters"; by Jamison Foser
| This Week: From "Eloise at the Plaza" to Obama at the madrassa Chris Matthews to fellow journalists: Do as I say, not as I do |
From "Eloise at the Plaza" to Obama at the madrassa
Media Matters senior fellow Duncan Black argues on his personal blog, Eschaton, that as bad as current political news coverage is, it was worse just a few years ago:
As awful as our media can be now, as awful as it was post-9/11, as awful as it was in the runup to the Iraq war, 1998-2001 is really the period when they collectively lost their minds, from The Blowjob through the Gore campaign, the contested election, and the post-Clinton "pardongate"/"white house trashing"/etc. Fox News, while annoying, was irrelevant because they really weren't any different than the rest of the media, where Lanny Davis represented "The Left."
The media problem was a political problem as well because for some reason the Democrats have a history of caring what these blubbering idiots think of them. So, "our side" takes it cues from Meet the Press and the Washington Post, constantly trying to please them and compounding the problem. But, fundamentally it's a media problem.
(Duncan goes on to offer a reading list for those interested in delving further into the "media problem." Those interested can find the list here.)
Over at The Daily Howler, Bob Somerby has been wrestling with the question of whether the "media problem" is getting better or worse. On Tuesday, Somerby wrote:
For starters, an embarrassing admission. Until this weekend, we'd never dreamed that another White House campaign could be covered as falsely as Campaign 2000. We thought that campaign was a Perfect Storm, unlikely ever to be repeated. But then, in the wake of the Clinton announcement, a wave of spinning and utter nonsense put a surprising new thought in our heads. Omigod! The press corps' demonization of Dems could be just as bad this time around! The thought had never crossed our minds -- until this weekend's events.
As bad as the media's coverage of prominent Democrats from the late 1990s through the 2000 campaign was -- and it was almost indescribably bad, though that doesn't stop us from trying to describe it -- we aren't sure it's much better now. It's hard to identify improvement when someone like Glenn Beck -- who has fantasized on-air about murdering Michael Moore, said he hates the families of 9-11 victims, and demanded that a Muslim congressman-elect "prove to me that you are not working with our enemies" -- gets hired by both CNN and ABC.
If media coverage of politics has gotten better since 2000, it's better in the same way that getting punched in the face is better than getting kicked in the groin -- neither one is much to write home about.
But, as Somerby pointed out on Wednesday, there are hopeful signs:
But in one major way, things are much better. Already, bogus claims about Democratic candidates have been debunked -- in the mainstream press! Congratulations to the Washington Post and CNN for going after the gong-show claim that Barack Obama attended a madrassa, for example. Meanwhile, turmoil is spreading about John Solomon's puzzling report in the Washington Post concerning the sale of John Edwards' home. Post ombudsman Deborah Howell has already challenged the story on her web site. Apparently, she will address the issue in this Sunday's column.
In each case, a bogus or shaky claim has been quickly debunked or challenged. Simply put, this never happened in the astonishing two-year war the press corps waged against Candidate Gore -- the war which sent George Bush to the White House. We're looking at a massive change in the way our politics works.
Somerby's post caused us to think about how the media's coverage during the 2000 presidential campaign of then-Vice President Al Gore's childhood differs from the past week's coverage of Sen. Barack Obama's childhood education.
Throughout the 2000 presidential campaign, news reports portrayed Al Gore as having grown up in a "vast" "penthouse suite" in the "elegant" and "swank" Fairfax Hotel, a "luxury Washington hotel." It wasn't true, as we'll see, but that didn't get in the way of its ubiquity.
That image of young Gore growing up in the swank Fairfax Hotel was helped along by a stunt conducted by then-RNC Chairman Jim Nicholson on the day Gore announced his candidacy. Ceci Connolly's Washington Post's article about Gore's announcement noted:
Gore chose the tiny west Tennessee town of Carthage for his announcement today to highlight the parts of his biography not connected to Washington. While his late father, Albert Gore Sr., served in Congress, Gore attended prep school in the nation's capital but returned to the family farm here each summer.
Republican National Committee Chairman Jim Nicholson today mocked Gore's promotion of his rural roots, riding up to the elegant Washington hotel where Gore grew up in a wagon drawn by a pair of mules. He then led reporters on a tour of the rooms that were once the Gore family residence, what he referred to as the "real Gore homestead."
But the Nicholson stunt wasn't the genesis of the media's obsession with Gore's childhood in the swank hotel. Months earlier, Maureen Dowd wrote in her New York Times column:
As the son of Senator Al Gore Sr. of Tennessee, Prince Albert grew up as the capital's version of Eloise at the Plaza, ensconced in a three-bedroom apartment in the elegant Fairfax Hotel on Embassy Row. Sometimes, when his parents went out, the future Vice President would order room service from the hotel kitchen, now transformed into the pricey Jockey Club restaurant.
(The "Eloise at the Plaza" language stuck: in September 1999, The Washington Post's David Von Drehle wrote in a front-page article: "Hanging over Al Gore is the image of lucky little Eloise, the girl who grew up in the Plaza Hotel. Gore's father was a senator from Tennessee who kept his family in a suite at the old Fairfax Hotel on Embassy Row. Young Gore attended prep school at St. Albans, then headed off to Harvard.")
On March 24, 1999, the Post ran an op-ed by Michael Kelly titled "Farmer Al" -- a deeply dishonest hit piece that suggested Gore had lied about doing chores as a child and portrayed him as having grown up in a "vast" apartment on the "top floor of the Fairfax Hotel."
The Fairfax Hotel canard was alive and well in the pages of the Washington Post and New York Times through the end of the campaign, well more than a year after Nicholson's stunt; more than a year and a half after Dowd's "Eloise" column.
In August 2000, the Post's David Broder wrote that Gore spoke "about the values he had learned from his hard-working father and mother, about his youth (though nothing much about living in the swank Fairfax Hotel or attending elite private schools)."
In mid-October 2000, just weeks before Election Day, the Times ran an article headlined "THE 2000 CAMPAIGN: THE CREDIBILITY ISSUE; A Sustained G.O.P. Push To Mock Gore's Image." The article's hook was what it described as "a skillful and sustained 18-month campaign by Republicans to portray the vice president as flawed and untrustworthy." In doing so, the Times noted:
On the day Mr. Gore formally announced his candidacy in Carthage, Tenn., his family's hometown, Jim Nicholson, the chairman of the Republican National Committee, had a more elaborate stunt. He rode in a wagon pulled by mules to the Westin Fairfax Hotel on Embassy Row in Washington where Mr. Gore lived for much of his youth." He has tried to pass himself off as this hardscrabble, homespun central Tennessee farm boy and that is not what he is," said Mr. Nicholson, playing off the fact that Mr. Gore had told The Des Moines Register that he had learned to slop hogs and clear land on the family farm. Friends later told reporters that Mr. Gore's father had kept him on a backbreaking work schedule during summers on the family farm.
But, even as it noted the "sustained 18-month campaign" by the GOP, the Times made no effort to assess its truthfulness. And, as it happens, there was a problem with the "swank hotel" story: it was complete bunk, as Bob Somerby has explained:
When the Gores lived in the building in question, it was actually a residential hotel -- the Fairfax Apartment Hotel -- known as "Washington's family hotel." Though it would later be sold to the Ritz Carlton (and renovated), it was neither "fancy" nor "elegant" at this time, according to a string of Gore biographers. In February 1998, for example, Marjorie Williams did a profile for Vanity Fair in which she examined Gore's childhood years. "Although the Fairfax Hotel later became the Ritz-Carlton," she wrote, "it was not a posh place at the time Gore was growing up; in any case, the apartment was in their reach only because the hotel was owned by a cousin." Bill Turque agreed in his later biography. "[T]he Fairfax was a bit more modest in Gore's day," he wrote. "[T]he bare linoleum floor and thick steel doors suggested transience and utility."
But the Post and the Times didn't tell their readers that -- indeed, not only did they unquestioningly quote the false Republican claims that Gore had grown up in a "swank hotel," they adopted the construct as their own. To pick but one example, Broder didn't attribute his description of the Fairfax as "swank" to Nicholson, he simply asserted it on his own.
This despite the fact that the Post, in a Style section look back at the Fairfax published before Gore became a presidential candidate, reported that the Fairfax was popular with foreign-service families because "The hotel apartments were the only ones with kitchens that were within the State Department's stingy temporary-housing allowance."
As Somerby further explained, not only was the Fairfax itself not "swank," the Gores' apartment was not particularly "vast":
"Until he graduated from high school in 1965, Gore's home was Apartment 809, a smallish, two-bedroom suite," he wrote. And yes, you read that passage correctly -- the Gores' abode was so vast and so lavish that, until Gore's older sister went to college, the pampered siblings shared a bedroom. Indeed, Williams had long debunked the notion that the Gores were wealthy when Gore was a youth (another treasured RNC/press corps spin-point). "[Gore's father] would become rich after he left the Senate, in the employ of Armand Hammer," she wrote. "But the senior Gores' correspondence is full of suggestions that, when Al was young, the family's upper middle-class existence was a stretch." Gore's biographers agree with this assessment. To state the obvious, none of this trivia should have any bearing on who gets elected to serve in the White House. But for those who want to deal in facts instead of invidious partisan spin-points, the Gores weren't "rich" when Gore was a kid -- and the Fairfax Apartment Hotel wasn't "swank" at the time.
Not only did the Times and the Post fail to debunk the lies that were told about Al Gore throughout 1999 and 2000, they actively spread those very lies. They adopted them as their own. They endlessly repeated the lie that "Prince Albert" had grown up in the "vast" and "swank" "luxury hotel" even though the Post itself had previously reported that the hotel was modest!
Compare that behavior to what has happened this week with the Obama-madrassa smear.
Once again, the early stages of a presidential campaign feature right-wingers smearing a prominent Democratic candidate with lies about his youth.
In 1999, Republicans portrayed Al Gore as an out-of-touch liar, misleading the nation about his spoiled childhood living in a luxury hotel. It wasn't true, but the media quickly joined in.
The early stages of the 2006 presidential campaign have featured media figures like Chris Matthews and Jeff Greenfield noting the similarities between the names "Obama" and "Osama" and suggesting that Obama's middle name ("Hussein") and frequent style of dress (open-collard shirts, no tie -- just like Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad!) might be a political liability.
Predictably, the right-wing media have taken this even further, delving into Obama's childhood in order to suggest that he has lied about his purported "Muslim background" and education in schools that "den[y] the rights of non-Muslims."
This latest comes from InsightMag.com, a rancid website that describes itself as "America's premier weekly Internet news magazine." Under the headline "Hillary's team has questions about Obama's Muslim background," InsightMag.com pulled off an impressive two-fer, "reporting" that Hillary Clinton's campaign has investigated Obama's background and "concluded the Illinois Democrat concealed his prior Muslim faith and education."
Relying on nothing but anonymous "sources," InsightMag.com claimed:
Are the American people ready for an elected president who was educated in a Madrassa as a young boy and has not been forthcoming about his Muslim heritage?
This is the question Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton's camp is asking about Sen. Barack Obama.
[...]
Sources said the background check, conducted by researchers connected to Senator Clinton, disclosed details of Mr. Obama's Muslim past. The sources said the Clinton camp concluded the Illinois Democrat concealed his prior Muslim faith and education.
"The background investigation will provide major ammunition to his opponents," the source said. "The idea is to show Obama as deceptive."
[...]
The sources said the background check concerned Mr. Obama's years in Jakarta. In Indonesia, the young Obama was enrolled in a Madrassa and was raised and educated as a Muslim. Although Indonesia is regarded as a moderate Muslim state, the U.S. intelligence community has determined that today most of these schools are financed by the Saudi Arabian government and they teach a Wahhabi doctrine that denies the rights of non-Muslims.
Although the background check has not confirmed that the specific Madrassa Mr. Obama attended was espousing Wahhabism, the sources said his Democratic opponents believe this to be the case--and are seeking to prove it. The sources said the opponents are searching for evidence that Mr. Obama is still a Muslim or has ties to Islam.
How disreputable is InsightMag.com? Wesley Pruden, editor-in-chief of its sister publication, The Washington Times, wrote a January 23 column in which he tried so strenuously to distance himself from Insight that we fear he may have sprained something.
Writing about InsightMag.com's Obama story, Pruden first described it as having "appeared in an Internet journal," then got a little more specific, referring to "Insight, the Internet magazine." Finally, Pruden admitted: "Insight, which is owned by the owners of The Washington Times but is absolutely, positively and entirely separate from the newspaper..." When even Wes Pruden feels the need to disassociate himself from you, it's a pretty good sign you have problems. But Pruden can't walk away from InsightMag.com so easily: His "Pruden on Politics" column runs not only in The Washington Times, but in InsightMag.com as well.
InsightMag.com's Obama story was false, of course -- but false stories there, under its previous incarnation as a print magazine called Insight on the News, have been credulously repeated by (theoretically) more responsible news organizations in the past. Among the various smears perpetuated against the Clintons in the 1990s by the media and their political opponents, it's virtually impossible to identify one that was the most vicious and irresponsible. But Insight's bogus (and quickly debunked) 1997 claim that Clinton auctioned off Arlington National Cemetery burial plots the highest bidder would have to make anyone's short list.
Neither the sleaziness of Insight's Arlington Cemetery report nor the report's lack of named sources stopped other news organizations from running with it, as The Washington Post's Howard Kurtz explained in a November 25, 1997, article:
[F]or the press, the charge that the Clinton administration was "selling" burial plots at Arlington National Cemetery was too tantalizing to resist, even though there were few facts to support it.
Within 48 hours, a story that did not include a single named source ricocheted from a conservative magazine to the talk radio circuit to Capitol Hill, and from there to such mainstream news outlets as The Washington Post, New York Times, Los Angeles Times, USA Today and CNN. The administration convincingly knocked down the charges Friday but failed to bury the controversy.
InsightMag.com's 2007 Obama-Clinton hit piece was quickly repeated and amplified by other right-wing media, just as the 1997 story had been. Melanie Morgan, Lee Rodgers, Rush Limbaugh, John Gibson and others jumped on board. Fox's Steve Doocy chimed in, explaining that "the thing about the madrassa, and you know, let's just be honest about this ... they teach this Wahhabism which pretty much hates us."
But then something unusual happened. Rather than simply going along with the smear, several news organizations debunked it. CNN sent a reporter to the school in question and aired a report shooting holes in InsightMag.com's article. ABC likewise sent a crew to the school, then reported:
An ABC News producer and crew visited the school in Jakarta, Indonesia, attended by Sen. Barack Obama in his youth and found it to be a normal government public school without even a hint of the extremist elements reported by various conservative news outlets in the last week.
Why did news organizations debunk the Obama smear rather than repeating it, as they (endlessly) repeated false claims about Gore's childhood, and as they repeated previous Insight smears of progressives?
We can't say for sure, of course -- indeed, it is likely that there are many reasons, large and small.
But it seems probable that the increased awareness -- among journalists, progressive leaders, and activists -- of what the media have done to prominent Democrats and progressives in the last dozen years or so is beginning to have a positive effect.
Media Matters didn't exist in 1999, when the Post and the Times and Chris Matthews and the rest of the media were in a frantic race to the bottom, sneering at and lying about Gore at every turn. Nor did Think Progress or the progressive blogosphere (though The Daily Howler and a few other sites were already around). Progressives weren't nearly as engaged in combating media smears as they are now.
The media are still flooded with conservative misinformation every day. Indeed, while several news organizations have debunked the Obama-madrassa smear, few have debunked the Clinton-madrassa smear: the claim that Clinton's campaign was behind the nonstory.
But recognition of the problem is growing -- as is the ability of those who care to fight back.
Chris Matthews to fellow journalists: Do as I say, not as I do
On the September 21, 2006, edition of MSNBC's Imus in the Morning, Chris Matthews complained that "the news media" was doing a poor job of covering "this bullshit war":
MATTHEWS: The news media, which I have to say sucks lately in covering the Iraq war -- it's like, we're at war, we've lost -- we've killed 50,000 people over there in that war, that died in that war, we still get guys knocked off every couple of days, a couple of more guys are killed, and yet, it's not on the tube. It's like, are we bored with the war now? Is that the new thing? We don't cover a war our guys are fighting? And I watch the news and I don't see the war anymore. It's been taken off television. And Bush must love it, because certainly Karl Rove loves the fact that the Iraq war has gotten boring for the American people. ... I have been a voice out there against this bullshit war from the beginning.
On January 23, during MSNBC's State of the Union coverage, Matthews again criticized the lack of "focus on the cost of this damn thing":
MATTHEWS: I was watching -- I think it was another network the other night, and I was talking -- listening to a young serviceman who was having treatment at a field hospital in Iraq. And he was telling the doctor -- well, the doctor told him, we're going to have to take off your left leg. And he was pleading with the doctor. In a very manly way he said, you know, can't you try to save it, Doctor? Can't you try to save my leg? And the doctor, who was doing his job, said, no, we can't, we can't save it. We just can't save it. But we can save your right leg. And the young service guy, God, he must have been on morphine, but God, he was bold, He just said, well, good.
You know, that kind of courage and sacrifice, it doesn't get talked about. It's all about vague heroism and the medals people win. But there's nothing about what is going on in our military hospitals now. Why don't we focus on the cost of this damn thing?
Matthews hosts not one but two national television shows -- the daily Hardball on MSNBC and weekly The Chris Matthews Show, which is syndicated by NBC and airs on CNBC -- and he frequently appears on other MSNBC and NBC programming.
In other words, few people in America have greater power to focus publicly on "the cost of this damn thing" than does Chris Matthews.
If Matthews wants news "about what is going on in our military hospitals now," he can use his two national television shows to air that news.
Instead, the January 21 edition of The Chris Matthews Show consisted largely of juvenile mockery of prominent Democrats and other inanities. In discussing Hillary Clinton, for example, Matthews bizarrely equated being "polarizing" with 1988 Democratic presidential nominee Michael Dukakis:
MATTHEWS: Why do they think she won't win a general?
NORAH O'DONNELL [MSNBC chief Washington correspondent]: Because they believe that she is too polarizing a figure because of her past.
MATTHEWS: Yeah. Dukakis in a dress.
O'DONNELL: Mm-hmm. Your words, not mine.
HOWARD FINEMAN [Newsweek chief political correspondent]: You said that. You said that.
Dukakis in a dress? What does "too polarizing a figure because of her past" have to do with Mike Dukakis? "Too polarizing because of his past" probably wouldn't top many lists of the negative traits commonly associated with Dukakis. But "Dukakis in a dress" isn't just a non-sequitur, it's also one of Matthews' favorite sneering descriptions of Hillary Clinton, as Media Matters has documented. It's his all-purpose dismissive phrase for her, leaving regular viewers to wonder if he's simply amused by the alliteration, or if it's an image he can't get out of his head.
But Matthews was just getting warmed up. Rather than giving viewers a glimpse of "about what is going on in our military hospitals now," he joined with Newsweek's Howard Fineman for this exchange:
MATTHEWS: Before we go to break, hey, good-looking, what you got cooking? Obama's declaration he's exploring a presidential run, sort of like Ted Kennedy explores an ice cream cone, has made Obama this week's star of the runway. So it's not just his political chops that's attracting stares these days. People magazine ran this picture of him striding from the Hawaiian surf looking, hey, like JFK. But enough of the swimsuit competition. Let's not forget that People magazine once named John Edwards, quote, "the sexiest politician alive." Check out that crewneck sweater.
Howard, in your online column this week, you talked about Hillary in this high school social competition. Who's Hillary in this mix?
FINEMAN: Well, Hillary's Miss Perfect. She's the one we all saw in high school, carrying all those multicolored binders down the hallways, filling out three-by-five cards about every student, having the whole thing wired --
MATTHEWS: And the poodle skirt.
FINEMAN: The poodle skirt.
MATTHEWS: All right.
FINEMAN: And then the mysterious transfer student comes in. That's Barack Obama, you know.
MATTHEWS: OK, she's so perfect. That's perfect. Anyway, who's going to win the social competition? When we come back, is Al Gore ready to get out of hibernation now that global warming is warming?
As a guest on other people's television shows, Matthews thunders that "the news media" does an inadequate job of telling people about the human cost of "this bullshit war." But as a host of his own show, he leads his guests in empty discussions of poodle skirts and crewneck sweaters. While complaining that his peers fail to feed the public broccoli, Matthews uses his own show to pass out snow cones.
But we've saved the worst for last. The exchange about Fineman's column was largely pointless; when Matthews and David Brooks focused their attention on Al Gore, they turned cruel:
MATTHEWS: Well, we put it to the Matthews Meter: Can Al Gore win the Democratic nomination? The Meter is split with six voting yes, six voting no. David, you say: Can't do it.
BROOKS: Well, first of all, I think a black woman -- a black man and a white woman can do it, and I think there's a lot of evidence to support that, so I don't think the party needs him.
MATTHEWS: Win the general?
BROOKS: Yeah, can win the general, so I don't think the party needs to do that. Second, I've heard no evidence that Al Gore wants to run for office, and unless there's a sharp increase in sales in Slim-Fast --
MATTHEWS: That's what I say. That's what I say.
Video of the exchange shows that Matthews exploded in laughter at the mention of Slim-Fast -- actually doubling over, as though it was the funniest thing he'd ever heard -- before continuing:
MATTHEWS: Can a black man win the presidency? Can a woman win the presidency? Can a fat white guy win the presidency? is the other question.
BROOKS: I'm not one to talk, of course.
MATTHEWS: You're not overweight, not compared to him.
BROOKS: But -- and finally, you know, they've got stars running for office. They've got three real stars.
MATTHEWS: OK. If we see a plummeting in the scales of Al Gore this summer, a super Slim-Fast diet, does that say this guy's getting back in there?
FINEMAN: It'll be front-page news. Al Gore buys a package of Slim-Fast. But, you know, I don't know --
MATTHEWS: Norah, what do you think? Are we going to watch the scales here to see how it's going?
O'DONNELL: I think that's unfair. But I think --
MATTHEWS: There's always somebody to put me in the position of bad guy. I'm going for the white guy. You're talking about the black guy.
On January 21, Chris Matthews and his cohorts used his nationally broadcast television show to mock Al Gore's weight -- Slim-Fast! HA-HA! Get it? He's overweight! HA! -- and conjure images of Dukakis in a dress; of crewnecks and poodle skirts.
Then, on January 23, Matthews wondered, "Why don't we focus on the cost of this damn thing?"
When Matthews said "this damn thing," he meant the Iraq war.
But he may as well have been talking about The Chris Matthews Show -- for the cost of that damn thing is a viewing public that is encouraged to think about elections in the stupidest, most superficial ways possible -- and is kept in the dark about "what is going on in our military hospitals now."
If Matthews is serious about the need for "the news media" to cover the Iraq war better, he can start by using his own television shows to bring attention to serious stories rather than sophomoric chatter and insults.
He could, for example, dedicate a portion of every show to "what is going on in our military hospitals now."
Or he could replace the inane exchanges with Howard Fineman about poodle skirts with an interview of CBS News chief foreign correspondent Lara Logan, who has been unable to get her compelling report "Battle for Haifa Street" on the air. Or he could simply tell his viewers about the report.
Sure, he would be promoting a reporter from a rival network. But that would only serve to show his peers in the media how serious he is. Maybe some would follow his lead. Besides, it would hardly be unprecedented for NBC to promote a rival news personality -- Fox's Bill O'Reilly has been invited to appear on Today several times.
















This is such a poorly written article/ blog, I don’t know where to begin. What you liberals don’t seem to get is that people actually choose to listen to artists like Glen Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Tim Russert, Bill O’Reilly, Hannity, Savage and Chris Mathews, because they are the best at bringing political opinion to the public.
According to you, however, the American people are just so stupid that they don’t know what they are listening to. Well, you’re wrong. Why do you think Air America is bankrupt and nobody listens to Democracy now?Well…Most American people aren’t stupid. They support taking the war to the terrorists but they also want the cuffs taken off our armed forces so we can actually kill the enemy. They believe that when Clinton lied on the witness stand as a licensed Lawyer, he committed perjury (a clear violation of the law, which if any ordinary American had done, they would be arrested). They believe capitalism is the best way for our growing economy to sustain itself as well as to exist as a free society. They believe that America is a great Country, with flaws, but the good greatly outweigh the bad. They believe radical Islam is the greatest danger facing America today. They believe less regulation of businesses will facilitate more businesses entering the market, thereby giving people more choices to purchase goods as well as increasing jobs. They believe killing a baby/fetus in the third trimester, when it could survive in an incubator, is murder. They believe in limited Government protected by the Constitution. They understand that since 5 Ice ages have come and gone, 99% of the plant and animal species that were ever on the Earth are currently extinct, and the existence of the little ice age during 15th Century, indicate that natural Earth phenomenon cause climate change, not SUVs. Overall, you liberals talk to the American public with your ignorant condescension as if only everyone thought like you the world would be a better place. Well, they tried that in the Soviet Union. Insanity is defined as trying the same thing over and over, expecting to get a different result. Thank god we have the free media to protect us from you.
clinton did not commit perjury, so said the judge at the trial. lied under oath and was sanctioned but did not commit perjury. just another load of right wing drivel. and go back to science class. when you perform an action, there is a reaction. hence, pollution introduced into the atmosphere will change it. so basic a sixth grader knows it. maybe you're only in grade three.
YOU CAN'T BE SERIOUS!!!!
Perjury is the act of lying or making verifiably false statements on a material matter under oath or affirmation in a court of law or in any of various sworn statements in writing. Perjury is a crime because the witness has sworn to tell the truth and, for the credibility of the court, witness testimony must be relied on as being truthful. Perjury is considered a very serious crime as it could be used to usurp the power of the courts, resulting in miscarriages of justice. In the United States, for example, the general perjury statute under Federal law provides for a prison sentence of up to five years, and is found at 18 U.S.C. § 1621.
Explain how he didn't committ perjury??
To respond to your second comment about my grade level demonstrates exactly what I meant by ignorant condescension. The Earth is constantly changing, which is why there were so many ice ages without the industrial revolution. Moreover, the best indication of what the climate was like pre-industrial revolution was from Wine Growers in Northern Europe who kept the most accurate diaries of temperature. They described in the 15th Century how Glaciers came from the North and destroyed their crops (The little ice age). Then, before the Industrial revolution, the Glaciers receded. This demonstrates why we should not all go crazy about “Human caused” global worming, thereby leading us to make drastic changes costing trillions of dollars only to have little or no change in the climate.
glaciers came from the north in the 15th century and destroyed the wine grapes????? i missed that movie. can i find it in the science fiction section at blockbuster?
It's next to the documentary on Global Worming: the Canine Solution.
material matter.
You are such a glittering gem of colossal ignorance. Look up the “Little Ice Age” in any historical or science encyclopedia…or ever google.
and? i've heard the term. duh, there have been weather changes in the past. so who denied that? human activity is warming the earth beyond normal changes. do you deny that?
No. Human activity (SUV's, jets, cattle ranches, etc.), do not change the climate with enough significance to justify drastic changes in our behavior, which will cost trillions of dollars. Second, CO2, which is not pollution, is what plants breathe. Hence, the more CO2 in the atmosphere, the easier plants can grow and thereby reduce any insignificant change we may have on our planet's climate (feedback loop). Third, if you read about the little ice age, you will understand how I can't answer what "normal levels" are. Right now, if the Earth continues to warm, we will probably go back to the Earth's temperature to what it was around the 1200s. Again, this doesn't justify drastic changes in human behavior.
the wast majority of scientists disagree with you. i will take their word. and i did not say or imply that there is one constant normal level. what i did clearly say was that pollution is changing what would be the normal level at this time. if you can deny that, you are seriously science challenged.
So let me see if I follow you. I demonstrate a logical conclusion that is easy to follow, and you come back with..."The scientists [Gore] say something else." Part of being a scientist is attempting to disprove the null hypothesis. What are the "global warming" scientists [Gore] so worried about. Could it be that they have a lot to gain by the outcome?
no, the scientists that deny human caused global warming have a "lot to gain". because in general, they work for the energy companies.
Yes - those big oil companies that caused the last 5 ice ages, destroyed 99% of the plant and animal species ever on the Earth, and who caused the little ice age a few hundred years ago.
no, they didn't cause any ice age. let me say it slowly again. g l o b a l w a r m i n g. warming. they're causing that.
Fine, they made the 5 ice ages go away with global warming.
you are unable to grasp the concept that natural climate change and human induced global warming can occur at the same time. according to you they are mututally exclusive. they are not.
No. You need to start reading my posts. The Earth's Climate is rising. But, whatever effect humans have on the climate is so minimal that it is not worth drastic changes costing Trillions of dollars. One easy way to see the minimal effect is to observe how the Earth's temperature/climate has drastically changed for Millions of years without humans.
like i said
You haven't said anything.
i get what you're trying to say. which is: there has been climate change in the past, so therefore that is the only possible cause of climate change, and human caused pollution cannot and does not have anything to do with it. what can i say? i disagree.
"Human activity (SUV's, jets, cattle ranches, etc.), do not change the climate with enough significance to justify drastic changes in our behavior, which will cost trillions of dollars."
-Me
You clearly don't know how to read. That was not what I said.
you: "natural earth phenomenom cause climate change, not suv's". see, i can read.
You are 90% responsible for this thread about nothing. Say something that we haven't already discussed or end it.
i'm done. we disagree on your statement i just quoted.
No. Human activity (SUV's, jets, cattle ranches, etc.), do not change the climate with enough significance to justify drastic changes in our behavior, which will cost trillions of dollars.
You're delusional. Even the Administration appears to be giving up that argument.
Second, CO2, which is not pollution, is what plants breathe. Hence, the more CO2 in the atmosphere, the easier plants can grow and thereby reduce any insignificant change we may have on our planet's climate (feedback loop).
That's a dangerously stupid assertion. If a little do good, a lot do better? Guess again.
http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2002/december11/jasperplots-124.html
Right now, if the Earth continues to warm, we will probably go back to the Earth's temperature to what it was around the 1200s.
Looking at various temperature record models, we're already at or beyond the temperatures of the "Medieval Warm Period"...and increasing.
But this can't be right. According to you, I thought we liberals were the condescending ignorami.
is the answer to your question, and thank you so much for supplying the definition of perjury, and supplying the answer to your own question.
You should really stop blogging b/c your liberal friends who are reading your comments are hitting their heads over and over b/c they know I'm right too. If you knowingly lie under oath, you commit perjury. That is why all Supreme Court Justices boycotted his State of the Union Address.
read your definition. and this may come as a big shock, but attendance by supreme court justices is not a legal finding.
If I clearly murder someone and am found Not-guilty, does that mean I am not a murderer? Bill Clinton clearly perjured himself by lying under oath about whether he had "sexual relations" with that woman. The reason why some wackos think he couldn't be convicted of perjury is because of his definition of sex. He could have thought that "oral sex" was not "sexual relations."
one more time for the challenged. let me say it slowly. m a t e r i a l m a t t e r. the judge, mind you, the person running the trial, said it did not fit the definition of perjury because it was not a matter that was material to the case. what you decide to call perjury is irrelevant to the legal proceeding. got it?
He was disbarred for perjury. The end.
the end of your pathetic performance. he was not disbarred. his license was suspended for five years at which time he could apply for it to be reinstated. he didn't.
"his license was suspended for five years at which time he could apply for it to be reinstated. he didn't."
Gotcha - you just admitted he perjured himself. Moreover, he would have been disbarred, but decided not to defend the charges, an aggravating circumstance in of itself, and decided to volutarily disbar himself.
uh obviously i did not do that. i said a few posts back that he did lie under oath but it was not material to the case, the definition of perjury. the five years was the sanction.
Read my later posts. I do my research.
You are NOT right. First it is arguable if the misrepresentations were material to the case. YOU cannot possibly show they were since the case was THROWN OUT. Second NO ONE in this country is guilty of a crime until twelve people say they are. Clinton was not charged nor was he tried for perjury much less FOUND guilty therefore he is NOT guilty of perjury QED.
Well, the Supreme Court of Arkansas thought he did.
No they didnt. As a professional lawyer he is held to a specific standard that is higher than that of the black letter law. He DID violate the ethical standard for a lawyer. I never said he didnt do anything wrong. However he has not been FOUND guilty of perjury therefore he is not guilty of perjury. When the Supreme Court of Arkansas CONVICTS him of perjury get back to me. I wont hold my breath
"Bill Clinton, is suspended from the practice of law in this Court, and a rule will issue, returnable within 40 days, requiring him to show cause why he should not be disbarred from the practice of law in this Court."U.S.,2001In re Discipline of Clinton534 U.S. 806, 122 S.Ct. 36 (Mem), 151 L.Ed.2d 254, 01 Cal. Daily Op. Serv. 8542
This was the Supreme Court Order. Clinton knew he committed perjury regardless of his plea deal with Ray, knew he violated the law, knew he disgraced the legal profession, and so never showed up to be reinstated and was disbarred for perjury. Again my point is, and always has been - he thought he was above the law, had no respect for the legal profession, and what he did was a big deal.
In other words his law license was suspended I didnt see the words GUILTY OF PERJURY THERE. When you can show his lie was material to the case, the one that was thrown out of court get back to me until then this is just blowing smoke. When you can explain how the judge saying it was NOT material doesnt mean he WASNT guilty of perjury when the statute specifically says it MUST be material try again. Trolling, successful showing Clinton committed perjury not even close. I agree he disgraced himself. You however havent shown he is guilty of perjury.
"he thought he was above the law" HUM.....WONDER WHO ELSE THINKS THEY ARE ABOVE THE LAW THAT IS IN POWER NOW! How many people have died or suffered because he thinks he is above the law! nO ONE DIED OR LOST LIMBS BECAUSE OF BILL CLINTON'S "THINKING HE WAS ABOVE THE LAW" which is your words not mine. While I do not particularly agree with what Bill Clinton did it had NOTHING to do with the Presidency of the United State. What GWB and his coharts have done in Iraq has everything to to with the United States and the American people. Talk about thinking you are above the law. GWB and Cheney think the law was written for everyone but them. When are you neocons going to grow up? When are you neoconservatives going to get over Bill Clinton. It is over, it is done and has nothing to do with anything that is happening today. GET OVER IT, FORGET IT, MOVE ON TO SOMETHING A LITTLE MORE IMPORTANT!
USing LARgE CAPS does NOT makE your arguMENT more SOUND. READ further and see THAT I DON'T suPPORT BUSH, nor DID I intend to TALK ONLY About CLINTON. But, AGAIN, what CLINTON did was horrible, nevertheless.
"Perjury is the act of lying or making verifiably false statements on a material matter under oath or affirmation in a court of law or in any of various sworn statements in writing."
=====
You left out the most important part. The testimony in question must be germane to the trial. The trial judge decided that whether Clinton was ever alone with Lewinsky had no bearing whatsoever on the proceedings because that was not the subject of the Whitewater investigation. Remember? They had to do with a land deal on which the Clintons lost money.
Next time you condescend to someone, make sure you are on sound legal footing. Cutting and pasting definitions doesn't make you smart, it makes you a plagiarist, especially if you demonstrate that you have no comprehension of what you have cut and pasted.
Your "definition" is the same sort of "cherry-picking" of information that led to the Iraq war. The Administration didn't understand everything they were given, either, so they ignored what they didn't like and lied us into war.
You are so late to the debate it is rediculous. Read on my friend. Look how far I was able to get your people to conceed.
nobody conceded anything except you. you have been unable to produce a legal finding he "committed perjury".
You are making my point...keep going.
produce the finding.
"You are so late to the debate it is rediculous."
-----
There is no such word as "rediculous."
Even though I started reading today, you are still completely wrong. Unfortunately for you, there is no statute of limitations on ignorance.
I'll give you an opportunity to rephrase this....
"Unfortunately for you, there is no statute of limitations on ignorance."
This sentence means that it is too bad for me that you may post ignorant comments after a deadline. Take a look at it...lol.
I stand by my comments. Your ignorance has not expired. Navy Guy had filleted you and you don't even know you've been sliced.
I'm getting to love your comments.
Your posts are pretty much a....you lost...you don't know anything...you're a right-wing bigot....you spelled this wrong...he showed you...rah rah rah...type of statement.
Bill Cinton: one of only 2 president's to have ever been impeached.
Why? Because he LIED under oath. This should be his intro every time he makes a speech, or appears on tv, etc.
Welcome the formerly (and still) impeached president Bill Clinton. What a disgrace.
Where have you been all this time...
Impeached, not convicted. The Republicans, who held a majority, couldn't get a majority to rule that Clinton was guilty.
You keep using the word "impeached." Quoting from The Princess Bride, "I do not think that word means what you think it does."
This was such a poorly thought out post you have embarassed yourself and out of pity I will just make a few points. First saying its an opinion doesnt absolve them from standards of basic decency which those screechmonkeys you have called artists (BS artists maybe) have thrown by the wayside. If I said you were a child molester, it wouldnt be a defense if I later said well thats just my opinion. EVERYONE is all for taking the fight to the terrorists, which has NOTHING to do with Iraq, which MOST people do NOT approve of. You obviously havent been keeping up with current events. The war has been unpopular for a long time since most people arent stupid and KNOW it had nothing to do with terrorism. Perhaps you missed the results of the last election the one where NOT ONE democratic incumbent lost and the Dems wiped the floor with the GOP. MOST people are not in thrall to your screechmonkey superiors nor are the buying your propaganda parrot talking points anymore. Your laundry list of conservative talking points are just that. The conservative take. Some are pretty much accepted some are not and wishing will not make it so. I know many of you rightwingers are convinced if you repeat something often enough it will magically become true but that just isnt how it works
Again, the American people choose to listen to them because they like what they do, and agree with most of what they have to say. Equating that to child molesters is absurd, and is not worth responding to. You views had their chance on Air America and Democracy Now, but the American public didn’t agree or care to hear to that crap.Democrats won because Bush and the Republicans sold out their party – they didn’t act like conservatives. While most people are against the War in Iraq, they understand that allowing American Soldiers to be killed without using the full force of the Military is incompetence. If you are going to go to War, you either do it full throttle, or you don’t go at all. This is why they were voted out. To suggest that the American public voted out the Republicans because they wanted liberalism is laughable.
That really wasnt the question was it. The question was Democrats? Or Republicans and HUGELY they chose democrats. Your contention that the reason the country threw the GOP out was they werent conservative enough is what is laughable. The polls show that the majority think we should not have invaded Iraq
Fact -Democratic Conservates won their elections to oust the Republicans. Webb, VA. is one of many examples.
Fact you have no point. Bigtime liberals won like Sherrod Brown in a rather conservative state like Ohio and an outright Socialist won in Vermont. A Paul Wellstone protege won in Minnesota, and ALL the bigtime liberal incumbents won. Your talking point is bilge
YES!!! The American people were so fed up w/ Bush that they voted for socialism.
Wait. I thought you said that the American people are not stupid, that they believe capitalism is the best way for our growing economy to sustain itself etc, etc. Blah, blah, blah, take the fight to the turrists.
So, by voting for the left or against the right, whatever, we stupid Americans voted against our beliefs? Who is condescending now?
Market fundamentalism is the neocon creed: This is the market, this is how it works. If a man cannot succeed in it, too bad, he is lazy, stupid, undisciplined and deserves the cruelest of fate. You're on your own, punk.
That is anti-American.
We are in this together. We are intrinsically connected to the market. A just society strives to make the market accessible and prosperous for all. Shared risk and shared reward makes us all better.
That is patriotism.
It is the tiny percentage of creepy neocons who support breaking our armed forcs in the collapse that is Iraq who are truly anti-American. In order to escalate W's bloodlust there will be no limit on how long our soldiers must be stuck in the meatgrinder. There is inadequate care from the overcrowded, overburdened and underfunded VA hospitals for the record number of soldiers who come home less than whole.
It is sickening to witness the depravity of war pornographers pedalling their wares for no purpose of national security. Vengeful jollies, that is what killing Iraqis is about.
Security begins at home. Bring our troops home.
Spoken like a true Marxist. I understood a little bit of it though...only neocons support capitalism? I wasn't really sure where you were going with most of your argument though...Survey says, "X"
"Capitalism" and "market fundamentalism" are two different things. You can be capitalist and not use the market as a tool of social darwinism.
If you don't have a substantive response, then don't respond. Calling people "Marxists" and pretending not to understand a simple point is not going to help your case.
"Spoken like a true Marxist."
-----
Spoken like a truly ignorant person when it comes to political philosophies. What the hell does Karl Marx have to do with cutting the funding for the VA while lying that funding is being increased? George W Bush has done this at least three times.
Learn something before you embarrass yourself even further.
For the love of god, you are so late to the dabate. Most of what he said mirrors the quote I posted from Marx.
"For the love of god, you are so late to the dabate. "
-----
There is no such word as "dabate."
Even at this so-called late date, you are still ignorant, and cutting and pasting what you do not understand does not help your cause.
So now we're down to checking my spelling rather than challenging my argument. That is just sad.
Moreover, when someone claims what they said is not Marxist, and I show them a quote that mirrors what they said, stated by Marx, that's called supporting an argument with facts.
"So now we're down to checking my spelling rather than challenging my argument."
-----
Your "argument" is all over the place. You get bested, then you change the subject. You have already lost so many "arguments" it is pitiful. And the worst part is, you don't even know it.
Disdain without portfolio doesn't become you.
Okay, since most of your statements are blanket, why don't you do this:
Read over Navy's post, cite what he said that defeated a specific statement of mine. Or, answer some of the questions I posted to him.
I'm sick of you rah rah ing without backing up what you say.
Bernie Sanders, Senator from Vermont is a socialist get over it
You're right, the American people support Socialism now.
I dont understand your weak attempt at a point. The people of Vermont support a Socialist to be their Senator which pretty much destroys your talking point without merit that Americans voted for CONSERVATIVE Democrats because the GOP wasnt conservative enough.
Voted for socialism? Just a little bit ago you said Americans had voted in conservative democrats. Can't you get your mindless screeds straight?
Besides, the notion it was conservative democrats that headed the wave on Election Day is just so much bilge. Please name just one republican whose campaign literature or advertisements said "Don't vote for my opponent--he's a conservative!"
Either my sarcasm is that good, or you should take a second longer before you respond.
"Either my sarcasm is that good, or you should take a second longer before you respond."
-----
For sarcasm to be effective, you must understand what you are being sarcastic about. Cutting and pasting long paragraphs from others in lieu of making your own arguments is not constructive debate, it's throwing up a smoke screen and hoping no one notices.
When your posts are worth wasting another second on in order to understand them (Why should we try to understand them when you clearly don't?), perhaps someone will take the extra second. So far you are arguing against yourself, and you are losing both sides.
My posts are directly on point to refute a statement, I will post them as I choose. It's called research.
Moreover, I cite to them, never intending to use them as my own words. Your problem is that you can't refute the content within them, nor can you refute the substance of the entire first post that I posted.
This is your way of attacking me rather than the argument itself.
"My posts are directly on point to refute a statement, I will post them as I choose. It's called research."
-----
It's only research if the long posts are germane to the debate. What Andrew Bernstein says matters not a whit.
What you say matters quite a bit, because what you say shows you to be completely bereft of facts.
Again, when people type comments that support socialism and argue that Capitalism is unpatriotic, I'll post a quote that states the exact opposite. Then if you would like, you can attempt to refute the argument.
You're just upset that Bernstein's argument is sound, and you can't argue against it.
The American people are wildly against Bush's surge. The American people were wildly against impeachment. They believe global warming with the vast majority of scientists.
Normally I don't think much of opinion polls since the people answering them are grotesquely misinformed, but when they thoroughly demolish your whole post, I gotta mention them.
The American people are wildly against Bush's surge. - True, and this is consistent with what I said. They want the cuffs (rules of engagement) removed, otherwise more of our troops will die regardless how many we send into Iraq.
The American people were wildly against impeachment. True - I was against impeachment. But, I believe that Clinton perjured himself by lying under oath. If you pulled what he pulled, you would be arrested.
They believe global warming with the vast majority of scientists. True - The Earth's temperature is rising. The question is whether or not we are directly responsible. That is not true. Look at history. The Earth has constantly changed throughout time. Animals and plants have gone extinct. It had nothing to do with SUVs.
"I believe that Clinton perjured himself by lying under oath.
-----
A while back you were trumpetin that he was positively guilty. Now you say it's only a belief.
Keep backpedaling, maybe you are beginning to learn what words mean. So far, you have misused "perjury," "Socialism," "Marxist," and "impeachment."
Come back when you can post coherently and show that you have a clue other than those long articles you cut and paste which don't support you.
I have misused nothing. I take back nothing. You haven't read most of this blog and show up late to debate interjecting comments in the middle.
"I have misused nothing. I take back nothing. You haven't read most of this blog and show up late to debate interjecting comments in the middle."
-----
Your ignorance is still on display. You do not know whether I have read the entire thread (I have). Your last post on the subject was equally as ignorant as the first, which you are now frantically trying to backpedal from.
You misused every word I pointed out. The fact that you retract nothing (I didn't ask you to retract, I asked you to learn, and you haven't), means you still have no clue as to what you are talking about.
LDoren,
Paragraphs. Separate the talking points.
Sorry, that was for the first post/monologue. You seem to be running out of steam, but it helps your style.
Thanks...it's tough to take on an entire liberal blog by myself.
Very telling, that. When even your fellow neocons won't offer a word of support, you know you're in trouble.
Frankly, LDoren, you've gone to a lot of trouble to hijack this thread. It must make you awfully proud. On issues, though, you've been shot down at every turn. You would really make your side look a lot better the moment you leave.
What??!! There are three conservatives that post on Media Matters. The rest don't know it exists.
add another guy who knows about mmfa. bill o'reilly. in fact he carries on about it
Right...lol...I'm sure O'Reilly signed up to MMFA so he could post.
uh i didn't say he posted here. i said he carries on about it. as in pitch a fit.
"Strawmen 'R' Us" LDoren strikes (out) again
What??!! There are three conservatives that post on Media Matters. The rest don't know it exists.
Is that supposed to be some kind of response? I never intimated how many conservatives know about, much less post on, this site. Besides, are you sure you want to trumpet the "fact" that the conservatives are guilty of such vast ignorance?
As usual, what I wrote about (in this case, the lack of neocons supporting you) is untouched. You're truly pitiful when it comes to debate.
In all honesty, LDoren, not since the days when the Tigers had Cecil Fielder, Rob Deer and Mickey Tettleton together have I seen so many swings and misses as your collective posts.
Well, you base the merits of my arguments on the number of conservatives who respond to what I say.
I respond by saying that most Conservatives don't know about Media Matters. Moreover, there are about 3 conservatives on this entire website, making it pretty difficult to respond to what I say.
So...next time, instead of responding to the number of Conservatives respond to what I say, why not next time try to refute what I say.
Here's a start...answer this question. Why do most Americans listen to Matthews, Limbaugh, Beck, O'Reilly, Hannity, Medved, or others. Do you think they are stupid? Do they not have alternatives? Or do are they smart people who happen to like what they hear/watch?
The Fact is that most (meaning more than 50%) Americans don't listen to your list of right-wing screechmonkeys.
"Most American people aren’t stupid."
Precisely. Because Americans after all are NOT stupid, is why you and your like-minded, fire-breathing right-wingers caused Republicans to lose the House and Senate a few weeks ago.
Your hate-talk and rejection of such things as facts and science, exemplified by the likes of Hannity, and your war-mongering bigotry, personified by Bush, Cheney & Co., continues to be rightly rejected by Americans. They are seeing a Democratic Congress get important things done in a way that your folks couldn't.
You guys are in a free-fall, headed for the bottom. Good riddance to you.
Where anywhere in my first post did I say I support anything about Bush or Cheney? You won't find it. Where anywhere did I say I supported impeachment? You won't find it. True conservatives would be against the war in the first place. But, since we Did go to war, it follows that you take the cuffs off our Military or take them home. Moreover, Conservatives believe in cutting spending (the President didn't veto a single spending bill). Conservatives, as do a majority of Americans, believe in securing the boarders, but we haven't. So, Republicans deserved to lose, because they were no longer worth voting for. But, now you have Democrates who were voted in to take the troops home, and what do we get - Nonbinding resolutions...I as well as most Americans are sick of this. You either win the war or take the troops home. You and I can both agree on that.
Some advice to the progressives here: do not feed the trolls. They thrive on your attention.
This is such a poorly written article/blog, I don’t know where to begin.
Well, why don't you begin by actually attacking the points of the article, such as the media treatment of Al Gore, the media treatment of Barack Obama, the continuing substandard of journalism provided by Chris Matthews, etc. In your entire screed you managed to touch none of these. Why in the world should you be taken seriously?
Check out freerepublic.com for a change. It's a conservative site with many different forums, including one for talk radio.
Yes, and if you post anything even remotely in disagreement with them, they block your IP address from posting.
FreeRepublic, perhaps, but free thought and free discussion, not in the slightest.
Warning: Classic Thread Hijack!!!
Notice how this person immediately throws off an inflammatory remark about the article (without actually addressing the specifics), makes a couple of vaguely-related (also inflammatory) comments, then veers off into an anti-liberal diatribe (complete with the obligatory Clinton references of course.) All designed to knock the thread off topic, 'cause you know that somebody's gonna respond to the nonsense, if not to the Clinton crap, then to the implication that libs are anti-capitalism or to the stuff about global warming. Now I'm not criticizing other posters for taking the bait--it's certainly hard to ignore pointed attacks on one's fundamental beliefs. But this person clearly was not posting to discuss the media's biased and shallow coverage of Democratic candidates, and engaging him/her on the issues, while making for some fairly interesting back-and-forth, took away the focus from Foser's piece, which is what I would have liked to have read comments on. All I'm saying is maybe next time, y'all should take your rumble to another turf!
This is the promise and the possibility of capitalism. This is the Capitalist Vision. It is our vision.Liberate man’s mind and behold the spectacle of his advance. Revel in the beauty of his sculptures, paintings and symphonies, soar with the heroes of his novels, marvel at his philosophic, scientific and technological advance.The West progressed culturally and economically because it had at least some reverence for man’s mind and the inalienable rights of the individual. These are the inescapable prerequisites of human advancement. If we desire the effect of cultural Renaissance, we must enact the cause of political/economic freedom. The current predicament of the Third World’s starving millions is identical to that of Europe in the Dark Ages. Their minds and bodies are oppressed by political dictators. Give them freedom - and give them life. They have the advantage of seeing what the West has accomplished. When they institute freedom, they can replicate the achievements of capitalism.Capitalism is the greatest benefactor man has ever had. It is time for the thinking men and women of every nation to recognize that fact and to fully embrace the system of the mind and of individual rights. Men and women of all countries unite - in your support of capitalism. You have a world of joyous achievement to win.
This and above quoted from Andrew Bernstein
Yes, Capitalism is wonderful. Nobody's saying otherwise, so your paste flooding there seems pointless. Freedom is wonderful too, but pure freedom is anarchy. Similarly, relying purely on market forces creates social imbalance.
Let Andrew Bernstein know that we can still have sculpture and writing and inventions and everything else he talked about with a moderated capitalist system. Just because it's the best system doesn't make it a magical construct that works flawlessly when left to work on its own principles.
Well, Bernie Sanders doesn't think so.
Bernie Sanders isn't who you were talking to. You called Roundhouse a "Marxist". Now you're trying to shift things onto Bernie Sanders.
Again, if you don't have a substantive reply, then keep it to yourself, for your own good.
He explains "Market fundamentalism is the neocon creed" where we want everyone to stave who can't make it.
"A just society strives to make the market accessible and prosperous for all. Shared risk and shared reward makes us all better."
This is Marxism.
How is that comment consistent with the principles of Marxism? I'm sorry, but "That is Marxism" by itself is not very convincing, especially from someone who has failed to establish any credibility on this thread.
"Capital is a collective product, and only by the united action of many members, nay, in the last resort, only by the united action of all members of society, can it be set in motion."
-Karl Marx
I'm not sure I see the connection between this and the basic sentiment that we should try to make life liveable for everyone. Marx spoke about exploitation, but that doesn't mean that any comments against that are Marxist either. Perhaps your definition of Marxism is a wee bit too broad?
What is there about Roundhouse's statement that is not consistent with the system we've had sixty years or so? It's not a call for socialism, as far as I can see.
Nothing wrong with capitalism. Never said there was. Never said socialism is the answer. That is simply a function of you fabricating conclusions that are not supported by my words.
Bernstein talks about the PC and the internet being created under capitalism. That is true, they were. He ignores that they were publicly funded innovations. Public funds drawn from the commonwealth that is.
There are six myths that are perpetuated by market fundamentalists:
1) The market is the only source of innovation. 2) The private sector is always more efficient than government. 3) Regulations are unfair; burdensome. 4) The market always gets the price right for executive salaries and labor wages. 5) Government always spends less productively than individual citizens. 6) Government always hurts those it seeks to help.
This is not to say only government gets it right. It is to say that government can support the common good and effect positive change for the people. After all, we the people are the government.
So, why trust private industry and their private interests with the people's business over the people's forum (government)?
Brabantio,
Thank you for applying the meaning of my painfully simple post as eloquently as you do. You're a champ.
No problem at all. At least I have some idea what he was thinking he was talking about, as misguided as it obviously is.
The Internet, while Gov't funded would not have taken off absent the free Market. Moreover, you make the flawed assumption that the Internet would not have been created absent the Gov't funding.
1) The market is the most efficient and free source of innovation. 2) The private sector is always more efficient than government when regulations are removed thereby increasing competition. 3) Regulations are unfair; burdensome. 4) The market always gets the price right for labor wages. Corporations are entities approved by State Goverments and their high salaries are caused by Goverment regulations See The Follies of Regulation - by Henry G. Manne WSJ.
The Gov't job is to protect the people, establish rule of law, and promote liberty. That is inconsistent with the Goverment actually competing against private business sposored by taxpayer dollars.
I trust private business because while Government leaders claim they create, fund, and give; they don't. They acutally extort from the people who earn the capital to better themselves.
I trust the people who are willing to take the risks to better themselves. I will always trust the individual to determine what to do with his money over the Goverment. I will also always trust the individual over the collective.
"The Gov't job is to protect the people, establish rule of law, and promote liberty." Actually, their job entails a little more than that. Specifically:
We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
What do you think they meant by, 'promote the general welfare'?
Anyway, I'm talking about government cooperation with private business and intervention when necessary.
Consider the eary days of the railroad. Think of the various proprietors of the railroad system, who in the grip of fierce competition to gain larger shares of the transportation business, laid different guages of track than their competitors. This effectively forced merchants to transfer cargo from train to train to find the most direct route. It was intervention, regulation, that made the industry accessible to all, thereby exponentially increasing the value of the system.
This is but one example of competition forcing inefficiency and cooperative intervention facilitating efficiency.
The story of the internet is not much different. The internet was conceived by RAND, a U.S. Army think tank who pitched the idea to the Air Force who in turn asked AT&T to construct the network. But AT&T didn't want to share the circuit maps the network would require. So, basically these government entities kept searching until they found fair minded folks who were willing to share the innovation. This is an example of government promoting the general welfare by striving for accessibility for all.
Government can be effective.
no surprise
that david broder is included in here. and it's no surprise that the media is paying little attention to the libby trial. if this was the clinton administration it would be "explosive testimony today....." this is from the huffingtonpost, a well written account of the trial by christy hardin smith on 1-24-07, concerning that day's testimony by a cia briefer named craig schmall, who gave daily briefings to cheney and libby: "schmall also had a very effective moment of testimony regarding potential damage that could have been done if a covert agent was exposed to public scrutiny, both to that agent, and to all other agents and assets with whom the exposed agent worked, including harrassment, torture, and death. it was a poignant moment, very effectively said with a firm tone by schall, and all the more powerful because he was repeating what he had said to v.p. cheney and scooter libby on the morning that the novak column appeared in newspapers outing valerie plame wilson." which is exactly why the outing of plame was such a serious act, because in a world where an informant could tip us to a catastrophic attack, the actions of this white house had to make potential contacts think twice about being exposed in their home countries. any doubt that every one of plame's movements and contacts was traced? and yet when fitzgerald announced that he would not be indicting karl rove, david broder, the "dean of the washington press corps", wrote that rove was owed an apology and that the whole business had struck him as overblown from the beginning. rove was owed nothing but his quick dismissal, because he did what he was accused of. he gave plame's identity to reporters who were not supposed to have it. and to suggest that her outing was no big deal shows a total lack of understanding of the the situation, at best. the fact is that this white house was heavily involved in this from the start on a wide scale, and bush's promise to fire "anyone involved" was a charade. it also put the lie to the idea that this administration is doing it's best to "protect" us. power and rewarding their wealthy sponsors are the only concern of the bush administration.
Perjury is lying under oath about something that is MATERIAL to the case. Perhaps you ough to try having some dim idea what you are talking about, sometime, you know just to mix things up
Under 18 U.S.C. sec. 1623, perjury is defined as the crime of making false material declarations while under oath before a federal grand jury or court. More specifically:
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=7th&navby=case&no=963360
The Supreme Court of Arkansas would have disbarred Clinton for Perjury, and he decided not to fight the charge, which is an aggravating circumstance in of itself. Instead of walking out in shame, he removed himself.
would have? so he actually was not found guilty of perjury, but you said he was disbarred for it.
God, you don't seem to get it. Let me explain to you how it works. The Supreme Court of Arkansas can disbar attorneys who are licensed to practice law before them. Not defending yourself is an aggravating circumstance because if you are not even willing to represent yourself, you should not be trusted to represent others in the Court of law. Clinton, knowing he would lose, decided not to defend himself, and disbarred himself. There is no question if you look at the applicable caselaw that he would have been disbarred for his crime.
how could he be "disbarred" if he could apply to have his license reinstated? you seem to have a tremendous amount of difficulty with legal definitions.
Well, lawyers can be disbarred and then petition the Court for reinstatement. What is so hard to get?
PROCEDURES OF THE ARKANSAS SUPREMECOURT REGULATING PROFESSIONALCONDUCT OF ATTORNEYS AT LAW
Section 7. Sanctions
J. Employment of Certain Disciplined Attorneys.
(1) When attorneys have been placed on inactive status, suspended, disbarred, or have surrendered their licenses, they are ineligible to practice law within this jurisdiction until readmitted or reinstated.
duh, if you don't have a license, you can't practice law. where does it say clinton was disbarred or disbarred himself or whatever tune you're howling at this moment.
Can you please read the above statute I posted. I was kind enough to do the research for you. You can clearly be disbarred and be reinstated.
Moreover, you seem to miss the whole point. Clinton usurped the Courts and created a miscarriage of justice by lying under oath. This should not be taken lightly; it was very serious what he did.
i miss the whole point? i said many posts back that he lied under oath. now you say the same thing, but you insisted he was quilty of perjury. he was not. nor did he "disbar himself" that is a legal finding.
"how could he be "disbarred" if he could apply to have his license reinstated? you seem to have a tremendous amount of difficulty with legal definitions."
Maybe you should watch your mouth before you spit out ignorance. See my above post.
like i said he disbarred himself? no such thing.
Mefirst, you're very patient.Or sadistic, but it kept coming back for more.
Maybe he thinks he wins the argument by posting the last comment, even if I can find statutes, caselaw, and data to refute all of his statements.
refute my statements? "he was disbarred for perjury" he was neither disbarred nor committed perjury. i notice you gave up on the perjury stuff.
Ray declined to indict Clinton for criminal perjury (as in a declination), but he also struck a deal that required Clinton to admit his evasions in the Jones proceedings and to pay a price (as in a plea bargain).
The deal brought in a third party, the Arkansas Supreme Court's Committee on Professional Conduct (subsequently the Supreme Court), which attempted to disbar Clinton for perjury.
The Justices of the Supreme Court of the United States, knowing this was perjury, boycotted his State of the Union Address. The purpose of the Supreme Court is to determine what the law is. Marbury v. Madison.
He perjured himself.
"evasions" "pay a price". i said he lied , and i said he surrendered his license for five years. he was not found quilty of perjury. he was not disbarred, he did not disbar himself. it's your opinion that he commited perjury. it was not a legal finding. you are back to starting the argument over again. repeating it does not make it any more true. anything new?
"Bill Clinton, is suspended from the practice of law in this Court, and a rule will issue, returnable within 40 days, requiring him to show cause why he should not be disbarred from the practice of law in this Court."U.S.,2001In re Discipline of Clinton534 U.S. 806, 122 S.Ct. 36 (Mem), 151 L.Ed.2d 254, 01 Cal. Daily Op. Serv. 8542
Clinton initially announced he woudl oppose his disbarment at the U.S. Supreme Court, however, on Novemember 9, 2001, Bill Clinton resigned from the bar of that Court and was disbarred. He knew he perjured himself and therefore didn't bother to show up.
no official finding of perjury and no official disbarment. coulda woulda shoulda is not a legal finding
I cited the perjuty caselaw itself. CAN you show his lie was material to the case? If you cant than you cannot show perjury PERIOD. Good troll work totally disrailing this thread though.
Its funny to watch your palpable ignorance while you accuse someone else of ignorance. The Statute says suspended OR disbarred. Clintons law licence was SUSPENDED he wasnt disbarred and this was for lying under oath. No question that was bad. What it WASNT was perjury. This is actually very simple, even YOU should be able to understand. All perjury is lying under oath. all lying under oath is NOT perjury. Not material, NOT perjury. What part of not material to the case are you incapable of understanding?
You are of course wrong, as usual. First he wasnt disbarred. Second that he was found to have committed professional misconduct is NOT the same as being guilty of perjury. Do you EVER know what you are talking about. I linked to findlaw citing the perjury law DIRECLTY it says it the lie must be material to the case. The case was thrown out. The judge decided it wasnt material. Unless you can refute those facts you are whistling in the wind. You WISH he had committed perjury, that wont make it so
The judge didn't throw out anything. Clinton plea bargained. Do a little research. And, since Clinton didn't show up within the 40 days, he was disbarred by default even if he on his own went and resigned. So, let's recap. (1) He was disbarred. (2) There was no mention anywhere of material fact in the case, because he plea bargained. Had he gone to trial it would have been considered a material fact. The issue was whether or not he "knowingly" lied on the stand, which Ray wasn't sure if he could or not (hence the plea bargain). Whether or not he had sexual relations with "that woman" was a material fact of the case.
Lastly, here were my exact words from my very first post. "They believe that when Clinton lied on the witness stand as a licensed Lawyer, he committed perjury (a clear violation of the law, which if any ordinary American had done, they would be arrested)."
How is this statement not true?
If any ordinary person did what Clinton did, they would be arrested, and thrown in jail for 5 years. The problem in this case had nothing to do with material facts, that was no problem. The problem was whether it could be proved that Clinton knowling lied under oath. The fact that he questioned the word, "Is" came into play, as well as his personal definition of sexual relations. Do you homework.
Wrong again silly one. Do you EVER know what you are talking about. An appeal was pending, there was a settlement but the case WAS thrown out
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/clinton/stories/appeal041798.htm
By Lois Romano <!--plsfield:credit-->Washington Post Staff Writer <!--plsfield:disp_date-->Friday, April 17, 1998; Page A01
<!--plsfield:description-->DALLAS, April 16 – A teary Paula Jones, barely able to compose herself, announced today that she will appeal a federal judge's ruling that her sexual harassment case against President Clinton has no merit.
U, saying that Clinton's alleged behavior may have been "boorish and offensive" but did not constitute sexual harassment.
So what part of U.S. District Judge Susan Webber Wright threw out Jones's case on April 1, are you having trouble understanding?
Solon, Do you homework again!!!
"U.S. District Judge Susan Webber Wright threw out Jones's case on April 1, saying that Clinton's alleged behavior may have been "boorish and offensive" but did not constitute sexual harassment. "
This was the sexual harassment case!!! This had nothing to do with perjury. Why don't you follow the cases I cited. The perjury cases Clinton plea bargained b/c he was above the law. For his actions he was subsequently sanctioned, and since he didn't attempt to be reinstted w/in 40 days, he was disbarred, but he instead resigned to avoid embarassment.
"This was the sexual harassment case!!! This had nothing to do with perjury."
Interesting comment. Forgive my memory, but wasn't this case where Clinton lied under oath to begin with? See, the thing is that a consentual relationship has no bearing on sexual harrassment. It doesn't lead to it, there's no "pattern of behavior" established by it, any more than it would establish a pattern of behavior for a rape case.
It really had nothing to do with perjury, more than you think. The nature of the charges make the testimony immaterial, and therefore not perjury.
yes that is exactly the case the paula jones case, he was deposed by her lawyer and asked if he had any sexual relations with certain women. he was asked about monica and he denied it. that is where the evasion charge came from. he was at no time found guilty of perjury. this clown, ldoren, doesn't even know the facts and he's on here pontificating about how poor this site is.
Okay, so after he lied under oath, he plea bargained to avoid being charged with perjury. These are two separate charges. Part of the plea bargain was getting sancaioned with the Arkansas disciplinary commission, and subsequently the Supreme Court of Arkansas. After being sanctioned for 5 years, he had 40 days to reinstated or get disbarred. He knew he would lose, he knew he had no chance, so he did what a lot of Americans do instead of being fired/ disbarred, he quit/ resigned. Most Americans, believe this was serious and showed he was above the law.
again my clueless one, he was not charged with perjury because it was not material. so said the judge in the case. facts vs. speculation.
"Most Americans, believe this was serious and showed he was above the law."
How serious did they think it was?
Of Course, even I didn't support impeachment. What the Republicans did made me angry too. Most of the public, as did I, thought Clinton was unfairly being slashed through the mud for what actually did with Lewinski. However, if you ask an informed American if they thought it was a bid deal that Clinton, a lawyer, lied on the witness stand, they would say yes. In fact, they would view it as a big deal. The media, however, focused on the "oral sex" aspect; this would have been a perfect time for MMFA to step in and say they are misleading the public.
Oh, so now it's "they woulda thought it was a big deal". He lied about an affair. Nobody cared except for Republicans who were clearly desperate for some grounds to impeach him on, no matter how flimsy. People understood he lied under oath. People knew he was a lawyer. They were obsessed with the oral sex because that's what he lied about, and everyone knew it was nothing to get impeached over. It wasn't material, it wasn't relevant, and it sure as hell wasn't a surprise. I knew before the '92 election he was a woman-chaser. I didn't care. And neither did most educated, informed people.
You can see on almost any poll that approximately 30% of the people are hard-core Republican and 30% are hard-core Democratic give or take. The numbers favoring impeachment and removal don't correspond to being informed, they correspond to ideology. Only the hard-core right thought it was worth impeaching over, and you've aligned yourself with that element in no uncertain terms.
Woman chaser? He was known to have sexually harrassed women. I thought it was liberal to side with the women on these issues when they believe they were harmed. Why didn't NOW support those women? But, I guess it is all about politics.
"He was known to have sexually harrassed women. "
-----
No, he wasn't. You are obviously referring to women like Juanita Broadderick, who testified that she had an affair with Clinton in a hotel that wasn't even built until two years after the alleged affair. She also testified that Clinton bit her lip so hard she was injured. Her husband testified that she never showed any signs of any injury.
Maybe you mean Ms. Willey, who had to be granted immunity twice because she did in fact lie under oath in her deposition. She wrote letters of support to Clinton after he supposedly "sexually harassed" her.
You have no understanding of anything. Alleging doesn't make it so.
I didn't find that post substantive enough to reply. I just laughed a bit. Wasn't it Gennifer Flowers who told the lie about the hotel though?
Gennifer Flowers tried to sue someone for slander when he wrote she didn't have an affair with Clinton.
Flowers is the one who falsely claimed a 12-year affair. You may be correct that she is the one who lied about the hotel. All the strangely-spelled lying bimboes started to run together there.
i think ms willey also had told a boyfriend that she was pregnant with his twins. she wasn't.
Man my cat has better reading comprehension than you do. The argument I made was that you would have a hard time showing the lie was material to a case THAT WAS THROWN OUT. If you then just jumped to YOUR talking point without addressing that argument you are even dumber than I originally thought and thats pretty dumb. You CANNOT show perjury unless you can show the lie told was MATERIAL to the case, a case that was THROWN OUT OF COURT FOR LACK OF MERIT. You can have the OPINION that they sky is green if you want it wont make it true and you cannot SHOW its true. What Clinton did was misconduct no question you cannot show it was perjury and only your bias is making you continue in this loser argument. As for YOU forget about homework LEARN TO READ
Thank you for recognizing Bob Somerby of The Daily Howler. He was basically the lone voice in the wilderness for many years and his work documenting the mainstream media's war on Gore is priceless. I wish someone would help him get his book out because he has a treasure trove of material that is essential to the historical record. David Brock and any of you at MediaMatters who can connect him with an editor, please do!
Tough to follow this thread, what with the insertion of an extended digression into Clinton's lie to the court (clearly NOT perjury, nor was he ever adjudicated to be guilty of perjury, nor does the case law (thanks Solon!) allow for such charge to be levied at the Federal level).
Harking back to the article upon which we comment: Thanks, Mr. Foster, for recognizing that War On Gore conducted by the MSM! However, the war on Democrats is not over, nor the war on democracy itself, while the Corporate monster survives unfettered.
MORA! MORA! MORA!
see my quick post above. Thanks at least for having a form of civility. The reason this thread went so long is because people misquoted what I said and then argued I was engaging in Right-wing spin. I wasn't going to let that slide. Nevertheless, subsequent to this post itself, I will still get people doing it again w/out reading my last few posts where I actually researched what I was saying.
At the risk of extending this digression:
1. You now admit that you began without facts, though asserting much as fact. (I do that often enough myself to sympathize!)
2. The hat-tip to Solon was for THIS url, rather than the most recent rebuttal of your [unfounded? ;-) ] claims:
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=7th&navby=case&no=963360
3. Thanks for having ". . . actually researched what I was saying." My suspicion is, that like me, you are now filtering the results of that research though the prism of need-to-be-right. Another problem I share fer-shur with our glorious leader, Bungle; and now with you?
4. My sympathies to you for feeling so alone, ("it's tough to take on an entire liberal blog by myself.") It must be REALLY tough to, however truthy the point is, keep failing to find acceptance for it. We all accept that President Clinton lied; most accept that they would have done likewise in matters so inessential to governing, and that there is no legal basis for statements now that he was guilty of perjury then, since no conviction ensued.
5. None-the-less, define the relevance or materiality of that entire line of argument, to the article posted, or the evidence presented, of a "War on Gore" by the MSM (Corporate Media Oligopoly); or to the trend of said intransigence by the MSM toward greater or lesser malfeasance toward the Democrats and democracy?
Good point. Will take note. Read one of my later posts after this one to see why I went on such a rant about Clinton. Never my intention.
Thousands of dead American soldiers, untold tens of thousands of dead Iraqi civilians, more every day, no end in sight, "Mission Accomplished", "the insurgency is in its last throes", "we will be welcomed as heroes", "months rather than years, weeks rather than months", "we know where the WMDs are", "mushroom cloud", those "16 words" in SOTU (need I go on?) - and ldoren is fixated on Bill Clinton and the ridiculous Paula Jones case. Absolutely unbelievable.
After seeing that there'd been 75 comments attached to this weekly item, and scrolling them to see what's all the buzz about, it took till the very last one listed, FRANKF's post, to see anything at all focused or topical or important even.
I've been reading this website regularly since the very first week it went online, which seems to have been late winter/early spring of '03 if I recall, March or April maybe... at first it was interesting to me because of Iraq, that being the time of the invasion, and so much misinformation in the "media" on that issue... then it seemed the '04 presidential election became of topical importance, with that and Iraq as the focuse on "media" misinformation... Kerry, Dean too, swift boats and Purple Hearts, debates and Iraq, always Iraq, that's what I remember. And after the '04 election, I wondered a bit as to whether MMFA would remain on watch, and if so, what would be topical and the focus... and of course we still had Iraq, it's destruction and death and the greed and the lies had in no way gone away, so there was still a lot to monitor in the "media", more even than before... domestic spying and the circumvention of FISA, the inability of Senate Intel to investigate the FALSIFIED 'pre-invasion intelligence', "stay the course" and "cut and run" and Iraq, always Iraq...
And of course, what had nearly toppled the administration of our government in '04 (Iraq), did still matter so much that it turned over the leadership of Congress in '06, in a rather stunning reversal of both Chamber's composition, and due primarily to Iraq, and secondarily to Congressional ethics (and Intel mattered too, if to none but me).
Iraq was, and is, that big... it nearly toppled the administration of our government right in the midst of it, Iraq did... and it did turn over the Congress (in stunninmg and extraordinary fashion!), Iraq did.
Which is sort of where we are right now... and I find the new Congressional majority to be headlong on the job, on the matter of Iraq... the dialogue and the agenda so far is great, it's focused and on point... we have Senate Foreign Relations weighing in heavily, as they should, having just drafted and sent to the floor for debate by the full Senate a resolution proclaiming that an increase in U.S. troops is not in the national interests of the Untited States... and a number of Republicans are on board too, if not completely with the language of the resolution, then with it's point.
Consider it now: If you were to insert the word 'security' between the words 'national' and 'interests'... and rephrase 'increase in U.S. Troops' to 'presence of...' or 'occupation by...', then think of what you'd have.
The presence of, and occupation by, U.S. troops in Iraq, does not serve the National Security interests of the United States.
Which is more than the Sense of the Senate, it is the Will of the American People... who nearly turned out the administration of their government in '04, and did turn out the Congress in '06, on just such a will as is stated above, and essentially what is to be debated by the full Senate shortly.
My post: I have never seen a worse week of items and reporting by MMFA than this week's... never in the time I've been visiting this website.
With the present public dialogue so intensely focused on the matter of Iraq, and with the administration of our government working so feverishly to oppose this Senate Resolution (with that administration in such opposition to the express Will of the American People), MMFA gives us a week's worth of items so fixated on the nauseating 'he said/she said' of the '08 bull so early...
...a fixation of worthless noise typified by this weekly item, and then expanded upon by the most extraordinary and worthless thread of commentary imaginable, seemingly kicked off by a single poster whose name I've never seen but seems to be working overtime and in shifts to keep the nonsense going...
And as I said, it took till FRANKF's post to even be reminded of what's truly important right now.
Well, when the dust finally settles, we will have either successfully censured the president's scheme of lies and greed and death in Iraq, or not... We the American People, from the floor of the U.S. Senate.
Whereas MMFA can look back at this time, and be proud that they were so concerned during this debate, about Gore's weight, and Obama's grade school eduacation, and Edward's home sale, and Hillary and whether she would ever feign talking on a cell phone so as to not have to stop on her way into the Chamber to talk to the howling "media"...
Howling about '08 nonsense, and be echoed all the way, by MMFA.
Dem: I find it unusual to be critical of your posts, for we agree so often.
However, in this case, I DO disagree: if we wish to know HOW we obtained such sad results from national and State elections, we need only look at the premises of the article in question. Too much of the electorate knows little of issues, and responds to Limbaugh and FoxLies as though their rants were delivered on stone tablets from the mount. How? Why?
It is thus crucial to determine two things: What is the snake-oil these vermin are peddling? What is the means by which they sell so much of the stuff?
The "product" consists of only two components: fear, and that MSM echo-chamber of attack (on liberals, progressives, Democrats, democracy per se.)
Barak (or Hillary, or John Edwards, or Russ Feingold, or Al Gore) may eventually have to confess to walking on water, and turning water into wine, and feeding the multitudes, just to balance that constant assault; and then REPLICATE all those acts on TV - just to approach electability. Too bad the Corporate Media Oligopoly will be unable to schedule time for the demonstration, since American Idol is into the quarterfinals, and there is another white girl missing somewhere in the world. Too bad the WaPo coverage will mention only one or two of the miracles, with the editorial conclusion that 1. we were promised more; 2. not only were our unpromised expectations disappointed (i.e., instant Rapture), but we also find upon closer examination that Mary had a husband at the time of the birth, and "some are saying" that can't be good!
Yes - we need to end the illegal invasion of Iraq as soon as possible!
AND we also need to end the Corporate insistence that no liberal candidate can be human, much less elected.
MORA! MORA! MORA!
Reasonable minds can easily differ. My complaint is not about the general mission of any "media" watchdog such as MMFA... which is a mission to stay on watch and on point, spot misinformation as it's broadcast or written, cite and rebut it in a timely fashion...
It's a good mission, and MMFA generally serves an excellent watch.
My complaint is with the menu of '08 crap being presently served up (it's only January of '07! The newly-elected '06 Congress was only just sworn 23 days ago!)... crap which is in no way newsworthy at all right now (22 months before the election?)... crap which is made more worthless considering that that newly-elected Congressional majority has gone immediately to the heavy lifting (to what the American People placed them in that majority status to do), which is that they, both Chambers, are headlong into the matter of Iraq, to the extent that "a troop increase is not in the national interest" rubuke has been already written (and passed) by the Foreign Relations Committee in the Senate, and is on it's way to the floor for a full debate... just 23 days after they, the new Senate, was seated! And the House waits out of respect to the Senate's business, to follow the Senate's lead with even heavier punches of their own... ACTION!
Now, I had said that this '08 stuff, so early, is crap compared to what's actually going on... crap so premature it could never survive as an issue out amongst the living and breathing American People, so it lives prematurely in the incubator of the "media".
And I say that this crap is intentional for it's worthless and gossipy nature, and for no market-driven reason at all, but because it purposefully distracts from and fails to report or even comment on, the extraordinary actions of the newly-elected Congressional majority... and who is it who can't see this, that this '08 noise, so worthless and premature, simply removes the new Congress and the president's scheme of lies and greed and death in Iraq (that that new Congress now works against), removes it from the "media"... and replaces it with (from MMFA's own item titles):
CNN, NBC blame Obama "opponents" for smears
Clinton "too cold' and "too elitist"
Left-wing websites are "full of bovine excrement"
Madrassa story
Al Gore's "Bela Lugosi haircut"
Bush's "Democrat" slur
Dems don't have "authentic" people
"Was Hillary behind Obama smear?"
new claim of Edwards as source for Obama smear
halfrican American
Clinton could've knifed Obama
o'reilly v. Soros
"belittled" for being "childless"
botched description of Kerry's botched joke
Foley emails
Foster suicide
Obama's Muslim father "presents a problem"
"NM Governor throws sombrero into ring"
dick morris intends to "swiftboat" Clinton
Clinton aides "will never admit" to timing of announcement
...that's just this week alone, those all-important "media" misinformation rebuttals just mentioned above.
They are crap and worthless as they stand alone... they are made crappier and more worthless when compared to the extraordinary public dialogue presently underway...
But they are crappiest of all, when they are considered for their purpose, which is to distract and annoy and otherwise waste the resources of an otherwise attentive "media" watchdog (who can't see this?)...
...resources wasted in an overly-sensitive and defensive out of all proportion reaction, to crap about Al Gore's haircut (who cares?), and the word "Democrat" (who cares? Not the American People), and everything and anything Hillary (who gives a crap?).
That was my complaint, and still is... one against the particluar menu of garbage offered up this week by MMFA... intended for the very reason of bedeviling them and annoying them and making them echo the crap (who can't see this?).
Maybe they'll wise up, and knock off the '08 "he said/she said" nonsense, next week... because this week, man, it was one bunch of worthless citations to be sure...
...they sure were played like a fiddle this week, MMFA was, by the "media".
If you were following MMFA all week long, you might never have had a clue as to what the Senate did this week... which I think is the very purpose of all the '08 crap in the first place.
You gotta be kidding...
I watch Hardball every night and Matthews covers "this bullsh#t war" as well as other political news extensively.
THIS is just sniveling on Jamison Foser's part!
Oh boo hoo he jokes about Democrats. Hey he pokes fun at Republicans too! Guess SOME of us have a thicker skin?
There's real honest to goodness mis-information & bias out there, which MMFA normally tackles better than other sites...BUT this carping about Matthews is just petty B.S.
Matthews is a political junkie--his insights & enthusiasm is what makes his program one of the best around.
I agree, this was the point I was making in my first post about how the American people listen to Mathews. He is one of the best.
Welcome to MMFA ldoren,
BTW thank you for even noticing my post--the ONLY one on topic I might add ;-) as it's buried among the OFF-TOPIC deluge to your first post...or should I say ONE sentence in your first post.
I personally felt you made some great points in that post and it's too bad that they were ignored in order to fight the old did he or didn't he commit perjury brouhaha. I'm NOT gonna touch THAT one...mostly because it's moot at this point.
Just a tip, ALWAYS carefully consider what you're writing....there are SOME here that with pluck out one sentence or even one word from an otherwise well written post and beat it to death.
I've written posts here and had the bulk of the subject matter and the ON -TOPIC point I am making ignored only to have some *aside* comment I've included zeroed in on and beaten into the ground. Of course that's the other posters prerogative--BUT it does take the thread way off-topic...and the threads end up like this one.
Hope the pile on doesn't dissuade you from continuing to post. Your posts are well written, and I believe your opinions could add a great deal to the discussion.
not his fault huh jeter. he said two things in that first post that i clearly saw as wrong. he said clinton "committed perjury", which is a legal finding and did not occur. he has been unable to produce anything to back that up. he also said that global warming is only caused by "natural earth phenomenom", which is clearly not the scientific consensus. do you disagree? that's hardly picking on "one sentence or word". and if you think that first post was anything but lot of right wing gibberish, we totally disagree.
Jeter, I see what you mean.
But, if you actually take the time to read all my posts (may take some time), you'll see really how far I was able to back the liberals into a corner. They admitted so much about themselves that I accomplished most of what I intended.
you denied that you said that global warming was caused only by natural causes. "that's not what i said". then i provided a quote by you saying exactly that. so who has the credibility?
See my later post with the mouse-elephant analogy.
mefirst,
First off where did I write it was not his fault? In fact where did I assign fault to anyone?
What I said is that it was TOO bad that the majority of the points he made were IGNORED because of one sentence...I stand corrected two sentences. AND I suggested that he carefully consider what he's INCLUDING in his posts as SOME here will zero in on one or two points-sentences-words- while ignoring the rest. I ALSO said while THIS is the prerogative of anyone replying to his posts--it normally will take the thread OFF TOPIC. As clearly did occur here.
His remarks about Clinton & global warming were off topic. Those that continued the argument on those 2 off topic points were ALSO off topic.
Jamison Foser's thread was supposed to deal with Obama and Matthews.
ldoren's first post INCLUDED off topic material. While I didn't envision it would be ignored, I do think MOST of the posts that followed ignored the bulk of his other on topic points and ONLY concentrated on one or two points. BOTH off topic.
While it was fascinating reading, I'd expect the MMFA monitors will wipe out most of it for being off topic.
Also, whether you agree with ldoren or not must you [and others] always insist on labeling opposing opinions as : right wing gibberish, or right wing talking points?
You know I could describe everything written HERE by Democrats/Liberals as Left wing gibberish & Left Wing talking points too.
I don't. I have more respect for other posters here than to be that condescending. Not everyone thinks exactly like you. That doesn't mean you're right & they're wrong. It just means you disagree.
"You know I could describe everything written HERE by Democrats/Liberals as Left wing gibberish & Left Wing talking points too.
-----
You could, and just as LDoren has learned, describing it as such does not make it so. LDoren clearly could not support his arguments, and resorted to the tactics called condescension and blowing smoke, neither of which proved anything he had posted.
LDoren's posts were in fact demonstrable right-wing gibberish and talking points. He couldn't even keep his arguments consistent, frequently arguing against point he had failed to support earlier.
do i have this correct? he is allowed to make remarks that are off-topic and wrong, but when others "pluck out" those and they are "beaten into the ground", that may be the "other posters prerogative" to point out the errors, but that leads the thread off topic. so i should not have responded? he can say his incorrect "talking points" [which they are], but i lead it off topic. his answer could have been, ok you're correct, but what do you think about such and such. i don't find any post with such errors to be "well written", especially when he attacks the article he's commenting on.
mefirst,
Did I blame YOU or others for taking the thread off topic? Did I suggest YOU should not have responded? OR did I simply state THE FACT of what occurs when someone's off topic remark ends up being the catalyst for taking a thread off topic?
Make your point--corrections, whatever, then let it go--instead of beating it into the ground... But that's not what happens here. Instead you guys allow ONE poster to lead you around by the nose.
Please note what ldoren1626 wrote to me:
"But, if you actually take the time to read all my posts (may take some time), you'll see really how far I was able to back the liberals into a corner. They admitted so much about themselves that I accomplished most of what I intended."
"I accomplished most of what I intended."
I think you guys may have gotten trolled....
help me out here jeter. now he's a troll, which would not surprise me, but that doesn't mean you don't respond to a false point. but if you think he's a troll and not to be bothered with, why did you write: "your posts are well written and i believe your opinions could add a great deal to the discussion". ???????????? and no you did not say me specifically, but let me put my sherlock holmes hat on. you said you liked his "first post" and he made some great points, but "some here" will pick out "one sentence" and "beat it to death". since i was the first one to respond to two of his points, were you not talking about me? maybe not only me personally, but am i not part of the group that pounced on poor little misunderstood ldoren? you're going to tell me i was not?
"help me out here jeter. now he's a troll, which would not surprise me, but that doesn't mean you don't respond to a false point. but if you think he's a troll and not to be bothered with, why did you write: "your posts are well written and i believe your opinions could add a great deal to the discussion". ????????????"...by mefirst
=====
mefirst PLEASE note that I wrote "your posts are well written and i believe your opinions could add a great deal to the discussion". BEFORE he wrote " "But, if you actually take the time to read all my posts (may take some time), you'll see really how far I was able to back the liberals into a corner. They admitted so much about themselves that I accomplished most of what I intended."
Did I respond to him after that? Nope...
And True enough mefirst--I did like his first post, I personally found several of his points credible. I did write and tell him--some good points--try not to go off topic--and beware that IF you make a comment someone takes umbrage with , then yes they'll pounce on it and beat it into the ground. And the entire thread will go off topic. And I hoped he's continue to post.
THAT was BEFORE he replied to me.
Do I think he MIGHT be a troll? Possibly. Keep in mind that I was considering his REPLY to me [as I pointed out above]. Especially the sentence I highlighted: "I accomplished most of what I intended."
I found that a tad odd.
And just for the record I was not signaling just YOU out, you were one of many...in fact until you just reminded me I didn't remember which post came first.
Again, I don't blame anyone for debating/arguing ANY point if they believe they are correct. I guess I was just astounded/amused at the 3000 posts his remarks generated...ok the 3000 is an exaggeration ;-)
uh no i still don't see it. what he said he "accomplished" was to "back us into a corner" and get us to "admit things". i read that as him saying he bested everyone and we could not keep up our points of view. that's completely wrong. and what he said afterward is irrelevant. you said he made some great points but "some here" "pile on". you are correct to tell him to be careful of what he says, but it seems you went out of your way to pat him on the back and go after us ruthless bastards who pointed out the errors he made. perhaps if you had said i agree with a good deal of what you say but be careful about what you write. no need to take shots at the people who called his bluff, as in "some here", as if we're just looking for an argument.
"They admitted so much about themselves that I accomplished most of what I intended."
=====
That doesn't tell me he thought he won the debate [though perhaps he thinks he did]...quite frankly it's hard to read this thread and figure out who won or lost.
Sorry mefirst, SOME here do pile on & argue things into the ground for the PURE glee of being able to finally wear an opponent out and squeal "I win I win"...whether they actually did or not.
IF & WHEN Brock starts giving out [cash] AWARDS for winning arguments then I'll play too. Till then, I'll simply say what I need to, then leave it alone. I'm finished with this topic....
Oh just one more thing....
Did I even suggest anyone was RUTHLESS or BASTARDS? Please STOP interpreting my words or thoughts.
ok jeter we can leave it alone. but if you really think it's just a matter of opinion on some of his comments, please. you went out of your way to praise him, and i think the phrase is lie down with dogs get up with fleas. and again you're being a little disingenuos here. did you use the term "ruthless bastards"? obviously i did not say you did. but anyone can read the post i'm replying to now. you just described how "some" just keep on and on, just won't quit etc. etc. we can let others decide what your're saying.
The only thing LDoren accomplished was to have his ass handed to him by Navy Guy, who shut him down completely.
"I think you guys may have gotten trolled...."
Have to agree here. Worse, I think it might be <a href="[link to www.techliberation.com] Brought to you by the privatised propaganda services of <a href="[link to www.google.com] (or perhaps one of the other late-comers. MMFA is certainly conspicuous and influential enough to warrant this kind of "attention". This little piece from Daily-Kos makes a helpful beginning. Another <a href="[link to en.wikipedia.org] Time will tell.
Wow. What a mess. Apparently html is no longer tolerated. I am glad the preview function is back though. This should have read:
"I think you guys may have gotten trolled...."
Have to agree here. Worse, I think it might be astro-spam. Brought to you by the privatised propaganda services of Netvocates (or perhaps one of the other late-comers. MMFA is certainly conspicuous and influential enough to warrant this kind of "attention". This little piece from Daily-Kos makes a helpful beginning. Another sock puppet? Time will tell.
astro-spam: http://www.techliberation.com/archives/039247.php
Netvocates: http://www.google.com/search?q=netvocates&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-SearchBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7DMUS
Daily-Kos and Paid Trolls: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/6/17/12157/4714
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/10/30/22293/048
Sock-Puppet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_sock_puppet
Yes, we agree that Matthews is not professional enough to keep the personal attacks from real reporting and discussion.
But did you hear about his comments directed at Republicans in the past? Bush will run if the price of coke goes down? Rove and Cheney got a personal trainer so they can lose 500 lbs each before the election? Rumsfeld was born in a German castle and had over ten nannies? How are they ever going to shake their bad habits and lifestyles and actually run the country?
Or is there a sane voice out there who reports the facts and ignores the fluff? Not Matthews. The problems is that Matthews cannot separate himself from his political leanings. I hate to use the most common phrase, but he really gushes when he speaks of the coke-snorting, business failing, idiot prez. Something to do with his Repub brother running for office?
Hey scooter
Wow that 2 posters [ you & ldoren1626] that noticed my post buried in this thread ;-)
Matthews seriously discusses issues about 95% of the time...and includes a bit of levity 5% of the time. Hell if we can't laugh a bit at our screwed up leaders & messed up world we'd all be in therapy!
I like Matthews. You obviously don't.
Different strokes for different folks.
media matters didn't exist in 1999, when the post and the times and chris matthews and the rest of the media were in a frantic race to the bottom, sneering at and lying about gore at every turn. nor did [link to thinkprogress.org] face="Arial" size="3">think progress or the progressive blogosphere (though [link to www.dailyhowler.com] face="Arial" size="3">the daily howler and a few other sites were already around). progressives weren't nearly as engaged in combating media smears as they are now. unless you yourself jamison, were the horse itself, and prefer to remain anonymous, i must point out that you forgot the granddaddy of all progressive blogs that in fact inspired us all, media whores on line. rip horse
Stick to your guns, doren.
Your aniquated, erroneous right wing talking points are the main reason the Democrats control congress now & will control the WH in 2009.
Therefore I have absolutely no problem with your posts, no matter how long or non-paragraphed.
The more the American public is exposed to your brand of Limbaughesque puppet-drivel, the deeper a hole it digs for the Republican party.
Rush "I no longer carry their water" Limbaugh almost single-handedly got McCaskell elected in MO...
...now lets see what Democrat you can get elected provided we leave you to your own devices.
This was actually the most well-written blog I've read today. It gets right to the point.
My tyraid about Clinton was not my intention...especially if you read my first blog post.
The next blogger just happend to say I was performing right-wing hatred or something about Clinton's perjury. So, I figured I'd rearticulate my point.
The only reason I brought up Clinton in the first post was to explain that it was a big deal. That he was above the law. That's it.
Nobody is above the law. Not even the President. He must respect the law, which Clinton didn't do by lying on the stand. That's it.
In fact, this is a huge problem many American's have with Bush. I think you'd agree.
I could get Lieberman elected...by the way.
Actually I DO agree. In the US the law is king. No one is above it. IF Clinton were guilty of a CRIME, he should have been prosecuted. He wasnt, as has been pointed out ad naseum no matter what the code of conduct is for lawyers. The PERJURY statute says the lie must be material to the case. Since no one has shown that to be true it isnt clear to me or many people that the LAW, not professional conduct, the LAW was broken. Now I absolutly agree what he did was wrong, disgraceful in my opinion but I havent been shown it was illegal, you certainly havent done that. IF it were illegal, I would have wanted it prosecuted just like I would like to see investigations and if the evidence is there prosecutions for Bush for any violations of law including war crimes as defined by the Nuremberg tribunal.
JUST when I try TO stop TALKING about CLINTON I get a Blogger ATTEMPT to CONTINUE to DISCUSS it by using LARGE CAPS to argue.
I REALLY am DYING TO DISCUSS how INTERNATIONAL law is NOT written INTO our AMERICAN Constitution, and has no influence on OUR PRESIDENT, (only ARTICLE II of the CONStiTuTION and the Laws of the US do) but I WILL leave it be, and AVOID further analysis.
Ldoren,
"Stop talking about Clinton"?????By mentioning his name FOUR times in a relatively brief post.
May we have your comment on the "Mission Accomplished" stunt? Itwould be far more refreshing.
The Mission accomplished poster was stupid...how do you respond to that?
you said in your "very first blog post" that clinton "committed perjury". i replied he "did not commit perjury". if you had other issues to discuss then you did not have to spend time defending a statement that was clearly wrong.
Follow my gazzilion posts responding to this assertion. I'm not going to entertain your posts regarding Clinton anymore. Take a second to read them, if you want a response to this comment. The bloggers don't want anymore of it.
i'm done too. next time stick to facts.
You could try that if you wanted but it would be juvinile to say the least WE did the Nuremberg Trials and OUR chief prosecuter Robert Jackson of the tribunal said directly that the standard WOULD apply to us. Now unless you are saying that the standards WE use and hold other countries to dont apply to us then you have NO POINT.
BEFORE i respond to your comment. I just want to understand what we ARE TALKING about. YOU are saying our PRESIDENT BUSH, should be TRIED before the WORLD for warCRimes? Is that WHAT you would LIKE me to RESPOND to?
Principle Vl
The crimes hereinafter set out are punishable as crimes under; international law:
For any excuse we've heard to invade Iraq, something here applies, I believe.
International Law is a joke. It is equal to a nonbinding resolution. Look at Sudan, Cambodia, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Iraq (under Saddam), Ethiopa, Nigeria, Liberia....thank god those people have International law to protect them.
International law is what Britain and the US say it is. Why?? well, it's all about enforcement. Without enforcement, it has no teeth. Moreover, since the rest of the world complains about our Military and then asks us to solve humanitarian crisis/ enforce international law around the world, they can have their International Law.
The American people are Governed by American law, and our Constitution. If you don't like Bush, you should have voted him out, and convinced others to do the same.
If you want the troops home, your leaders have to defund the war.
Article I, sec. 8 of the Constitution is the only way you will get your way. Searching to International law is absurd. The sad thing is that your new Congress has no teeth either because they don't have the guts to take a stand either way on what they believe. Like I said in my very first Post...Conservatives want the Cuffs off, or we should get the troops the hell out of there.
So now you've changed your tune a bit, not really challenging that Bush has committed war crimes, but it's just too bad for the rest of the world. American law, however, encompasses more than just our own law because of the Supremacy Clause. Surely you know that, but your analysis there didn't even allude to it.
Incidentally, your brush-off of International law raises an interesting scenario. Since we're committing war crimes, and the American people are not rising up to stop it, how are we different from Iraq in that regard? Wasn't that one of the arguments for invading, that Saddam was an international scofflaw, with U.N. sanctions against him, etc? So if a "coalition of the willing" decided to invade us and replace our system of government, by your logic you have no right to complain. After all, international law is a joke, and has no teeth, so it's just too bad for us, right?
War Crime def. - Losing in a War and being tried in a Court of law by the Victor. The winner of war defines what a War Crime is. That's just the way it is. Arguably, while I don't agree with this argument, Saddam violated UN sanctions and we came in to enforce the sanctions.
You won't find in any of my posts that I supported the invasion of Iraq. It was wrong, but we are there now, and like it or not, the results of this War matter. If the Congress is not willing to cut funding, then we need to take the cuffs off the military, and do this right.
Also, I understand you may have a lot of guilt that America is a bad Country that needs to be punished along with all the American people for its past and present, but if we were taken over by another Country, I hope you'd be fighting along side me. Its is not about what is "fair" it is about knowing how the world works.
No, the definition of war crime was already posted. And again, by your own comments, if we were to be taken over then the victors could not be held accountable.
I don't think America is a "bad country". Go stuff yourself with that tripe. If we're going to fight terrorism, which is the big threat, then violating international law and invading sovereign countries without just cause is only going to make things worse. And if we're supposed to be the keeper of international law, if the effectiveness of that very concept rests on our shoulders, then we have a responsibility to the world to uphold it. It has nothing to do with us being a bad country, it has to do with Bush being a bad president. You can claim not to be a Bush defender, but that simplistic conflation belies your real motives.
No, we use our Military for our interests, not the rest of the World. Our citizens that voluteer for our Military. They are not an International peacekeeping force. Therefore, take the damn cuffs off and stop charging our troops for war crimes to make us feel better about themselves. No more "rules of engagement."
FDR, Lincoln, and Churchill would think we have a suicidal mental disorder.
I didn't say our military was an international peacekeeping force. I was responding to this;"International law is what Britain and the US say it is". You define us as the guardian of International law, and that's what I was referring to.
Well, who else is going to enforce it other than us or Britain?
Not too many other countries with any significant numbers. You make a great argument for why the U.N. should have more power, whether you intend to or not. When nobody has any influence over a country, the potential for abuse is obvious.
Of course, sometimes these things work themselves out in a natural fashion, like it did with the Roman Empire. Of course, I don't want us to befall the same fate, which is exactly why we need to stop acting like an empire.
No!! You as a U.S. citizen have the ability to control how we influence this power. I don't understand this idea of having the U.S. join the U.N. an International body more corrupt than Enron. If you want the U.S. to do something differently, you convince people like me to join your side. As of yet, you haven't been able to do so.
That doesn't make much sense. Surely it's easier for different countries to work together towards a common goal, for all of their interests than for voters to change U.S. policy. There's corruption and flaws in our system as well, but those in power have a vested interest in keeping the system how it is. It can be minimalized, but certain changes aren't going to happen with any amount of "convincing". A group effort for an effective U.N., on the other hand, would work for everyone's interests. Nothing's ever going to be perfect but the advantage is obvious. What are you so scared of?
I'm scared that people with good intentions like you are going to give up the US power and the Nation's security to a bunch of nutjobs from abroad so that the liberals in America can relieve their own guilt about America. This is a suicide pact.
Common goal?? You realize you're talking about a body including Saudi Arabi, Iran, Russia, China, Japan, Canada, U.S., Britain, Libya, Iraq, Israel, Pakastan, India, Taiwan, etc.
These Contries don't have a common goal.
You think it's easier to have Taiwan and China, or Israel and Iran, or Pakastan and India, agree on world policy than to change the voter turnout in an American Election?
Moreover, when was the last time the U.N. was able to solve a single World problem? The way to solve most "World" problems is to pick a side and kill the enemy (The non-muslims in Sudan are still waiting for the UN to show up). Peace through strength.
Lastly, according to most people on this blog, we just had a change in November.
I don't see how the U.S. loses power or security from that. The power to do what, wage pre-emptive wars? If there's really just cause for it, then an international effort can do it.
Are we supposedly the only reasonable country in the world, or what? Give me a break. Every country has a self-interest for peace. Countries that start beating the war drums obviously would get isolated, sanctioned, invaded, etc. If everyone else is a threat, then we're no worse off for the effort anyway.
Alternatively, we're supposed to "convince" people to do what, exactly? First off, the tone of the corporate media is filtered through the interests of Republicans. An honest dialogue is nearly impossible, as items on this very site show on a continual basis. Secondly, it's a representative Democracy. We don't have direct voting. We had a change in November, yet there's still a war going on. It's been unpopular for quite some time, and not only has that not ended the war, now we're escalating it. What's really funny is the proposal that we're supposed to convince someone like you, a person who's spent all day arguing that Clinton perjured himself, in the face of all facts and any logic. There seem to be thousands, perhaps millions of people like you who couldn't be convinced of gravity if they were dropped out of a plane. And even if that weren't the case, we have no influence on the executive branch. Cheney for example says that Congress could make waging war more difficult, which means that he believes that the executive branch can still start a war independently. That is the problem. Even if 290 million people were utterly convinced that the war needed to end, even if every single member of Congress stands in opposition, the White House believes they still have that authority. Now after four or eight years we can get someone else, but there's a lot of damage that can be done in the meantime.
A change in voter turnout does not automatically hold our government accountable. How many times have we heard the warnings about "too many investigations" from the new Congress? We're supposed to convince FOX viewers that Bush should be investigated? Making peace between Israel and Palestine would be a piece of cake compared to that.
I'm sorry there is no way to respond to that. Peace with Israel and the Palestininans is easier than that?? And, a lot of your assertions about Cheney are flawed. First, Congress has funded this war. Since the President is the commander of the Armed forces (Article II, sec. II), he can wage it. Congress, if it wanted could defund the war, b/c the President has no ability to take money from other programs to fund the war.
Lastly, how does that remove our power?? Well, you want to give Contries like Iran, Saudi Arabia, Libya, and France the power to dictate our Economic, military, and overall world policy. That is giving away power to nutjobs. That is suicidal.
So the administration doesn't believe they can wage war independent of Congress? Are you sure?
As for Cheney, tell me what assertion is flawed.
Now, this refers to the first Gulf war, but still the sentiment is pretty obvious. Congress saying "no" would not prevent the war, just make waging it "more difficult". If anything, 9/11 only magnified the sense of urgency and importance for unitary executive power. Why are we supposed to believe that legalities of funding are going to stop them, if they themselves don't seem to believe it?
Regarding your phobia of international relations, if our policies are sound, legal and fair we should have nothing to worry about. If we act in good faith, then we'll restore our standing with the world, and get respect. It wouldn't be carte blanc to run our entire and government anyway. In any event, your argument about "convincing" people like yourself to do anything was laughable, and obviously beyond your abilities to defend.
You don't seem to understand what Rice and Cheney were talking about. Congress can declare War and fund it. After that, they have no ability to stop it unless their either defund the war, or have 2/3 of Congress support bringing the troops home in order to override a Presidential Veto. After that...they can't do anything. Article II, sec II.
I know what the Constitution says about it, but that's not consistent with what Rice and Cheney are saying, quite obviously. "Circumvent(ing) congressional authority" is an option that won't be taken off the table. Congress voting "no" to the Persian Gulf war would make things "more difficult". Read the quotes before you tell me that I'm not understanding what they're saying because it's not consistent with the Constitution. Of course it's not consistent with the Constitution, that makes it a problem, not what proves that I'm misunderstanding anything.
Congress declared war on Iraq...what am I missing?
You're missing that Cheney was talking about what would happen if Congress didn't approve the Persian Gulf war, and you're missing that Rice was talking about Iran and Syria. "Circumvent(ing) Congressional approval", again, regarding going to war against those countries. Neither of those things have anything to do with the current funding of the Iraq war.
I have to add it's pretty funny that you jumped to the conclusion that I didn't understand what they were saying when your questions show that you didn't even read the quotes at all.
No, my question was rhetorical.
What? What was your point then, about what Rice and Cheney were talking about? What are you talking about?
"Congress declared war on Iraq...what am I missing?
-----
An actual declaration of war, for one thing.
LDOREN1626,
For a complete summation of the VIOLATIONS of International TREATIES that the US Government has summarily abrogated through egregious activities of deceit, chicanery, and outright willful intent : Go to:
http://www.westpointgradsagainstthewar.org/laws_and_treat%C4%B1es_violated_by_pr.htm
You are skirting the issue and want it both ways. I am referring to a Constitutional provision which clearly and unequivocally concludes that ALL International Treaties entered into by the United States acting as as a sovereign nation have the force of Constitutional Law and THUS BY default ANY violation of said treaties are a VIOLATION of THE Constitution.
Additionally, it has been reported all across the armed forces THAT our JAG-Ranked Officers are exiting in droves well in advance of retirement WHICH irrefutably shows that legally trained professionals well versed in International Law, The Uniform Code of Military Justice........... The Army Field Manual, etc do not abide by your ' Law of the Jungle' argument that ONLY VICTORS in WAR prosecute the Losers.
This administration has shamed US before the world community and thus compromised, mailgned and sullied the Finest Traditions of the US Military. For that alone, They deserve our unmitigated contempt.
While they may deserve our contempt, who is going to enforce this joke of "International Law." Explain to me how Our military is going to enforce International law against its own Commander and Chief? Or is France going to rise up and enforce it?
It's all well and good to write a law, but unless you have the means to enforce it, you might as well use it for toilet paper.
"xplain to me how Our military is going to enforce International law against its own Commander and Chief?"
By their SWORN OATH Upon Commisioning which states:
Officer's Oath
"I, _____ (SSAN), having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God." (DA Form 71, 1 August 1959, for officers.)
Enlisted Oath:
"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).
An officer is held to a higher form of allegiance than one in the enlisted ranks. He /She does not swear an, OATH to the President, a Policy, Neoconmen or War Profiteers BUT To the CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES against all enemies, both foreign and domestic. Thus any Officer who is cognizant of orders which violate the Consitution and by extension, International Law/Treaties as oulined inthe SUPREMACY CLAUSE are duty- and honor -bound to ignore said order and act in accordance with their conscience and OATH.
Okay...so I'll wait for our Military to overthrow the President to enforce International law. Since, after all, it is their oath.
No, This will do from the last Real Republican President WHO knew a thing or two about WAR:
"When people speak to you about a preventive war, you tell them to go and fight it. After my experience, I have come to hate war." (2)
"I hate war as only a soldier who has lived it can, only as one who has seen its brutality, its stupidity. War settles nothing." (3)
"Here in America we are descended in blood and in spirit from revolutionists and rebels - men and women who dare to dissent from accepted doctrine. As their heirs, may we never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion." (4)
"If all that Americans want is security, they can go to prison. They’ll have enough to eat, a bed and a roof over their heads. But if an American wants to preserve his dignity and his equality as a human being, he must not bow his neck to any dictatorial government." (5)
Dwight D. Eisenhower
34th President of the United States
Yes, and at the time of Eisenhower, we didn't have the cuffs on our Military. They weren't fighting political wars. Nevertheless, what does this have to do with expecting our Miltary rising up and putting Bush on trial for War Crimes? It isn't going to happen.
" Yes, and at the time of Eisenhower, we didn't have the cuffs on our Military. They weren't fighting political wars. "
Your understanding of history matches your vacuous thought. IKE ran on a platform of Ending the Korean stalemate, and he did just that. And what's this tripe about 'cuffs on our military'? Did we restrain our military when we dropped more bomb tonnage on Vietnam that that which occured all across the Asia and the European theatre in WW2?
Political Wars? Now , there's an oxymoron for you. All wars are political. You seem to be of the opinion that if we just unload on these Iraqis and show'em who is Boss, All will turn out well. I got news for ya, Any indigenous people when invaded will fight an invader through a war of attrition. Vietnam taught US that in spades. Our leaders and military leaders have short memories.
SO, go back to your latest XBox 3D Tom Clancy video OR is it little plastic green army men that you fantasize with?
Enough, Like I said, You are in the big leagues here!!!!
Let me define political war - politicians going to war and not using the full force of the military in order to make themselves feel civilized in front of other politicians.
And Yes, I want the cuffs off. How many military men in Korea were worried about being tried by a Military Tribunal for shooting someone before they were shot at?
Why are we having our troops currently fighting in cities that are totally occupied by the enemy? Churchill would have firebombed most of Iraq before breakfast, and would have ended the conflict before dinner.
Let's take the cuffs off and win, or go home.
Yeah just as I thought Firebomb the whole of Iraq. Sure the answer in Iraq is to just kill more innocent people. So tell me how many innocent people need to die for you to feel safe? Give me a number. How many dead women and children is your sense of security worth anyway?
People like you would have surrendered to Hitler.
While I think we have no business in Iraq, now that we are there, the only lives that Matter are our American troops. You don't fight a war to protect the enemy.
Churchill firebombed Dresden. After that, most Germans who were still alive said,"Holy crap, I don't want to do this anymore."
War is disgusting, it is horrible, it should not be used unless necessary. But, if it is used, you protect your own people and troops above all else.
So to answer your question, I disagree with the premise.
this isn't world war 2, and what you say is completely out of line with what bush says. aren't we supposed to set up a functioning democracy that will be a beacon to rest of the middle east? the lesson that they will learn from firebombing "most of iraq"?
I disagree with Bush...but most people on this cite think all Conservatives are his supporters. That, my friend, is false.
that my friend is beside the point as usual. since our stated objective, our mission, our objective, is to build a free and democratic iraq to be a symbol and encouragement to the rest of the middle east, how does bombing the country to the ground accomplish that. can you answer a direct question, just one time.
The same way we now have a free and democratic Japan and Germany, who are now our Allies.
You keep talking about the cuffs we have on fighting the war in Iraq do you really think the big problem in Iraq is we just arent killing enough innocent people? Is the real asnwer to just bomb and kill more randomly?
You bomb the towns where Al-Sadr or Al-Qeida is hiding (Our military know where they are, there is no guessing). Then, when the towns are reduced to rubble, you send in troops and kill the remaining militias. This is not a social experiment, it's war.
If they rise up again, you do it again.
This idea of rebuilding Iraq before the war is over is ludacris.
"...at the time of Eisenhower, we didn't have the cuffs on our Military. They weren't fighting political wars."
Really? The leaders of Guatemala and Iran--both legitimately elected, and both relieved of their offices at CIA gunpoint--might have a different perspective.
You're proving my point. See my defintion of political war.
International law is a joke? Tell that to Milosevic. Yes Bush should be tried under the Nuremberg statutes if the Nuremberg precedent were applied he would be hung. I dont belive in the death penalty and would be fine with 20 years or so if found guilty. Some of those tried at Nuremberg were found innocent. There was also the Tokyo trials we hung some Japanese generals too. It is a standard WE applied to other countries its one we should be willing to have applied to ourselves.
First, Milosevic lost a war. That was how people could try him for anything. Second, most observers of his trial thought it was a joke too. Not a very good point my friend to bring up him as an example of the merits of International Law.
"This was actually the most well-written blog I've read today. It gets right to the point."
You say this after almost 160 posts?
Unbelievable.
Something has to be done before we hit Iran. I am telling you these "Republicans" are not your regular Republican. Email your congressman or woman. They cannot be reasoned with.
This administration are Authoritarians!
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/iran-timeline.htm
While I don't want to strike Iran. Please answer these few questions so I can understand the context.
1) Do we let Iran get the bomb? If no, how do you plan to stop them. If yes, why is that not a problem?
2) If Iran gets the bomb, what do we do?
The CIA says Iran is still a decade away from getting the bomb, and we still dont have any proof they are trying to get it.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/08/01/AR2005080101453_2.html
By Dafna LinzerWashington Post Staff WriterTuesday, August 2, 2005; Page A01A major U.S. intelligence review has projected that Iran is about a decade away from manufacturing the key ingredient for a nuclear weapon, roughly doubling the previous estimate of five years, according to government sources with firsthand knowledge of the new analysis.
The carefully hedged assessments, which represent consensus among U.S. intelligence agencies, contrast with forceful public statements by the White House. Administration officials have asserted, but have not offered proof, that Tehran is moving determinedly toward a nuclear arsenal. The new estimate could provide more time for diplomacy with Iran over its nuclear ambitions. President Bush has said that he wants the crisis resolved diplomatically but that "all options are on the table."
Negotiations on Irans nuclear ambitions shouldnt be tough for a country that actually had a diplomatic arm unlike the Bush administration whose idea of diplomacy is to tell countries to do what they are told. Help with their nuclear powerplants, pebble reactors that wont make weapons grade material, in exchange for a non aggression pact and security guarantees for Israel, and intrusive inspections. Iran does not have a history of aggressively invading other countries since the Achemeniad dynasty.
Washington Post Staff WriterTuesday, August 2, 2005; Page A01
A major U.S. intelligence review has projected that Iran is about a decade away from manufacturing the key ingredient for a nuclear weapon, roughly doubling the previous estimate of five years, according to government sources with firsthand knowledge of the new analysis.
The carefully hedged assessments, which represent consensus among U.S. intelligence agencies, contrast with forceful public statements by the White House. Administration officials have asserted, but have not offered proof, that Tehran is moving determinedly toward a nuclear arsenal. The new estimate could provide more time for diplomacy with Iran over its nuclear ambitions. President Bush has said that he wants the crisis resolved diplomatically but that "all options are on the table."
Wow...so the golden answer is Diplomacy. Moreover, Iran is going to get the bomb face it. But, I guess we should negotiate with them. Okay, let start the Debate.
Iran: I want Israel wiped off the map, and America Destroyed.
America: Okay, Iran well, can this wait a decade or so.
Iran: No, I want you dead.
America: Okay, how about about five years.
Iran: No, I want you dead and Israel gone.
American: Okay, how about only Israel.
Iran: No, I want both of you dead.
America: Okay, how about we give you money and goods for your people.
Iran: No, I want you dead.
America: Fine, we'll sanction you.
Iran: Fine, we'll kill you.
You can't debate with someone who's starting point is your death.
Lastly, even if we were to agree that it takes 10 years for Iran to get the bomb. Use specifics. How do we stop them? Your answer is diplomacy. Well, what do we give them to stop? What do we punish them with to stop? We tried this idea with N. Korea. We gave them money, and they built it anyway.
LDOREN1626 quotes:
" I REALLY am DYING TO DISCUSS how INTERNATIONAL law is NOT written INTO our AMERICAN Constitution, and has no influence on OUR PRESIDENT, (only ARTICLE II of the CONStiTuTION and the Laws of the US do) but I WILL leave it be, and AVOID further analysis."
Sorry Pal,
You are quite negligent in your understanding of the US CONSTITUTION, to wit:
Article VI, Paragraph 2 of the United States Constitution is known as the Supremacy Clause:
"This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."The Supremacy Clause establishes the Constitution, Federal Statutes, and U.S. treaties as "the supreme law of the land." All international treaties that the US is signatory to are thus by default consigned and entered into as the SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND, commonly referred to as the 'SUPREMACY CLAUSE'. BY violating standard protocols of mutually agreed upon provisions and consensus among the civilized nations of the world up to and including violations of ther UN Charter, Nuremberg, and to many others to quote, President George W Bush is in 'de facto' violation of his OATH to Preserve, Protect and Defend the Constitution of the United Sates and as an added abrogation, HE has failed to fulfill his sworn oath that the LAWS be faithfully executed and carried out.
SO ,LDOREN1626, "Go get educated, read a book and quit presenting as truth what is obvious to anyone truthful facts that you don't know. Better yet, Go back to the minor leagues, You are not quite up to snuff posting on these threads.
Okay...let's start. (read my above post, it may answer some of your points).
Article II, sec. 8 gives Congress the power to fund for the common defense. If Congress wants us out of the war, cut the funding. Otherwise, can we let the troops do what is necessary to save their own lives and kill the enemy please?
Moreover, we have in our Constitution a means to enforce the law; the Executive brance. International law only enforcement tool is OUR Military. So, International law is as worthless as a Non-binding resolution. Without enforcement it is as good as the law in Sudan. The winners of war define war crimes, the losers get hung upside down like Mussolini.
Oh sorry, I didn't respond to all of your post. International law, by the way, is molded and created in International Courts and bodies. Treaties are different. The reason "treaties" is included in the Constitution is because during the time when America had Militia's it was possible for Americans to fight against our allies if they were paid as mercenaries. The Constitution never intended for international law to be able to sanction our president for acting as the commander and cheif Artilcle II, section II.
Article I, section 8 deals with Congress and funding if I mistyped it before.
I meant to type Article I, sec. 8
Navy Guy, top dog posts as always, but I'd warn against getting sucked into LDoren's pit. It has been here getting beat for a couple days, and the more it loses, the longer and more empty the posts.
I'm thinking it'sa weekend meth spree, it should be passing out soon.
Okay, my friend, bring us out of the pit. If you believe Bush needs to be sanctioned for warcrimes, how does that happen? Who does it? France? The U.N.? How does the Commander of the Armed forces get tried by the Armed forces? Do they overthrow him?
If International Law is to have any teeth, it needs enforcement. As of right now, our military is the only one willing to do so....so, explain.
Ldoren - Nice job in stating your positions...of which I mostly agree...they are reasoned and well researched.
If your goal is to convert the liberal loyalists on this board...you're wasting your time. If your goal is to state your opinion in opposition to those liberals...well done.
You got many responses admitting that Bill Clinton " lied under oath and was sanctioned"...regardless of their weak defense on the charge of perjury.
You got repeated statements defending socialism/marxism...flushing out the left's views on America.
You concisely pointed out your reasons for the need to win the war in Iraq...with little response from the left about their plan...typified by the beauty that called you a "hate-talkiing, war-mongering bigot".
You had them denying the urgency of Iran's nuclear ambitions...most laughably with data from 2005.
Additionally, you smoked out the left's position that America should subjugate itself to the whims of international law...while hiding behind the greatest document of our time...the US Constitution.
Well done Ldoren!
I've enjoyed myself. Thanks.
Psychology Today has a great article on the personality differences between Liberals and Cons. It is a great summary of what I already found in my personal life. When a laid-back, thinking, educated, well-traveled person finds that more that 90% of their friends are Liberal, it all starts to make sense.
Fear = the tool used most widely by the Cons. Fear drives the Cons emotions, religion, and politics. Fear is why we have the Clown-in-Chief and his minions.
If any rational, educated, well-read thinkers are having a problem with the irrational rants of a LDoren, then understand that he/she would be the person most despised at your party (who invited him/her anyway?) They actually believe what the Chickenhawks Bush, Cheney, Rove, Rumsfeld, etc. have told them. There is no way you could convince them otherwise.
Hahahaha. No you didn't. You did not just cite Psychology Today. Out of the 200 posts, this is by far my favorite.
Your post is nothing but high-brow liberalism. You are educated, while the rest of the people are stupid. They need your help to see the light. They should just get up and travel to France, where teenagers revolt for an employer being allowed to fire them.
The reason your think 90% of your friends are liberal is because you only associate with liberals. Try doing what I'm doing. Post your post on a Conservative blog...see what occurs.
Fear = the tool used by liberals to scare us into buying into the human caused disaster awaiting us caused by Global warming and Capitalism. Fear drives the Liberal/socialist emotions, dogma, and politics. Fear is why we have the liberals hiding behind their blogs instead of getting out and debating Conservatives.
And I don't want to be invited to your wine and cheese/ S&M party.
i think you're correct scooter. just read the posts on the first page about global warming. it was all my fault that i pointed out that ldoren was saying exactly what i said he was saying. his words "natural earth phenomenom cause climate change, not suvs". then he denied saying that. he's a victim of his own words.
Sorry to feed the troll, but...
You did not just cite Psychology Today. So you either do not believe or understand the research involving over 88 studies and 22,000 subjects. Why do you hate research so much? Did you read the article first, or is this a knee-jerk reaction to scientific research?
You are educated, while the rest of the people are stupid. No, just an average. The more educated a community is, the more likely they tend towards Liberalism. I'm just sayin' (and so is Limbaugh, since he knows universities are pockets of Liberalism.)
They should just get up and travel to France... Predictably you had to invoke France. So how's that O'Reilly boycott going? (answer: imports went up... d'oh!) Are you forgetting that France understood the lack of WMD evidence?
The reason your think 90% of your friends are liberal is because you only associate with liberals. No, it just so happens that natural clusters are, well, natural. I still associate with Cons, but their personality typically drives me away. I really don't deny that they can't stand to talk to me when I get all compassionate about other races and cultures... and the poor, the environment.
Try doing what I'm doing. Post your post on a Conservative blog...see what occurs. I have to attend a conference every year where the bulk of the attendees are southern Cons. I usually cringe at every joke about gays (or minorities or women). And no, I am not making stereotypical conversations up. I realize that I do not fit their lifestyle in any way, and would never even want to be their friends. I can do business with them, and that is about it.And I don't want to be invited to your wine and cheese/ S&M party. How did you know our S&M parties included wine? Consider yourself not invited.You do realize that if there were 10,000 published environmental scientists in a conference room, you would be conversing with the one or two who think man cannot cause global environmental changes. Are you the dude who edits facts out of the EPA website?
Yes my friend the rest of the world are just Average. They need your help. You, on the other hand, are educated...just like Michael Savage, or Michael Medved, Laura Ingram, or Bill O'Reilly.
Moreover, I am more educated in social science than you may know. Most social science research is totally crap. The "studies," if you can call them that, just provide Scientists a means for more grants as long as they can design their studies in such a way to support their absurb hypothesis.
I'll give you one of many examples. Univ. of Wisconsin was able to get grants to fund studies that "Rape porn" causes aggression. So they acutally received grants to create their own rape porn, and used Wisconsin facilities to do so.
Could you imagine what would have happened had they not been able to disprove the null hypothesis? They would have received grants and taxpayer money for nothing more than to create "Rape Porn."
The person who created the research, would never have receive another grant.
As with most social science data, the studies are used to fit an agenda on both sides of a debate (the Right is just as guilty).
Lastly, the Global warming "studies" only weakly show correlation, not causation. Moreover, since that is true, you have to be naive to not look at history and notice the fact that five ice ages, and the little ice age, came and went without the industrial revolution.
but i posted in the very beginning that you were saying that climate change is all natural and man made pollution has nothing to do with it, and you said "i did not say that", but now you are saying exactly that. for a guy who claims he backs everyone into a corner, you have a bad habit of running away from what you said.
Correlation does not equal causation.
nor does causation rule out correlation. in other words, i said that you can have human induced warming and natural climate change at the same time. you said that it was only naturally caused. shall i repeat it again, your exact words? "natural earth phenomenom cause climate change, not suvs". you are absolutely ruling out pollution as any kind of significant cause of climate change. you are saying it is not possible for pollution to be causing it. as i said, you say it and then when i point out exactly what that you are saying, then you run away. you talk about how big and bad you are, but you run from your own contention. "that is not what i said".
Let me make an analogy. If an elephant and a mouse both step on your foot at the same time, and your foot breaks....Is it inaccurate to say that the elephant caused your foot to break? No.
Is it inaccurate to say the mouse didn't break your foot? No.
Did the mouse put its weight on your foot? Yes
Did it have an effect either way? No
In fact, you might laugh at people if they would waste your time to argue that you need to worry about mice in the future because a mouse once broke your foot.
If someone then said you were lying by saying the mouse didn't break your foot, you wouldn't know what to say. As I don't know how to respond to most of your comments about Global warming.
SUVs don't cause Global climate change.
Lastly, CO2 is not pollution. Plants use it to breathe. That would be like saying Oxygen is pollution.
Carbon dioxide is a pollutant, in fact a it is a lethal gas when sufficiently elevated in concentration. You keep talking about glacial cycles as a natural phenonema that does not threaten our existence. That is only half correct. Glacial transgression and regression is indeed a well documented cycle in the geologic record. But that isn't the crux of the biscuit, is it? The rate of glacial retreat is what is significant isn't it? Never in the geologic record have glaciers retreated at such an accelerated pace as we observe currently. What causes this? The only missing factor in the geologic record of glacial cycles is the waste products of human consumption.My apologies for the crammed paragraphs, it doesn't look like this on my preview function.
No problem with the formatting. I don't have a problem with that, unlike some who check my spelling for me and then post it to laugh at me.
To your point, however, wine growers described the little ice age come and go at the same pace as glacers today.
Tell me more about this little ice age of which you speak.
The best known indication what temperatures were like during the 1400-1700 is from wine growers in Northern Europe. They need to keep accurate records of temperature in order to grow wine.
In their diaries, they describe how glaciers rolled down from the North and destroyed their crops, along with horrible cold temperatures. Before the Industrial Revolution, they describe how the Glaciers left.
Presently, we are likely at the same world Temperature as it was around 1200 a.d.
If you would like to learn more about the "Little Ice Age." Pick up a history book about Europe, or Google it. You'll get more information then you could possibly ask for. Ironically, people see to forget history.
could you provide one of these diaries where the glaciers crushed the wine grapes. or what countries you are talking about.
http://www.pepysdiary.com/
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/02/060210090742.htm
http://www2.sunysuffolk.edu/mandias/lia/determining_climate_record.html
http://www2.sunysuffolk.edu/mandias/lia/little_ice_age.html
http://www.vdqs.net/documents/2002Montpellier/resumes/ashenfelter.pdf
http://www.pbs.org/saf/1505/features/lia.htm
i went to every link and none of them mentioned glaciers rolling down from the north and crushing the grapes. in fact there was this statement, which i pretty much knew: "although continental glaciers have not covered north america and europe for the last 10,000 years...." and then went on to report how already existing mountain glaciers expanded some. but no glaciers "rolling down from the north". laughable. i already said i had heard of the little ice age and i knew it was a period of lower teperatures. but i also said many times that natural climate change is a fact, but that does not preclude that human sourced pollution does not add to global warming. so far you have provided nothing to support your assertion that only "natural earth phenomenom" cause climate change. your argument seems to be it's true because i say it is.
Mefirst,
I have read many articles (hard copies) that support the glaciers coming down from the North. I tried to find the links on the web in 10 min. of research. You'll find it too if you look. I was kind enough to do some research for you and posted four links to help you.
I'm not attempting to not cite my assertions, you'll see that I've been willing to back up my statement with cites all along the way.
Thanks for sticking to the facts unlike some bloggers on this cite.
I read a few academic papers on the topic. This is what I gathered.
The little ice age was likely not a global phennemon, but a localized phenemon spurred by climatic zone anomalies.
[link to jrscience.wcp.muohio.edu]
Or, it could be just as likely that a very non-ideal situation of a natural global warming cycle is occurring simultaneously with human induced global warming.
[link to www.whoi.edu]
Go ahead. Hang your global warming refutation on a temporal, localized weather event. I will follow the universal trends evidenced globally in the the deep time scale of the geologic record of glacial and interglacial cycles.
In short, the earth, not just northern Europe, is warming more rapidly in this century than any other era in the geologic record.
But I do thank you for motivating me to do some climate research. Sincerely, thank you!
I like it, keep doing the research. You'll find information from people who support my argument and those who don't.
Nevertheless, this is what we are supposed to do with science. Attempt to disprove the null hypothesis.
Human caused global climate change is not "fact." It is a hypothesis.
And being a hypothesis, one that I and many disagree, it is not worth spending trillions of dollars to stop it, which we couldn't even if we wanted.
your analogy it absurd. but let's discuss this: "suvs don't cause climate change" you know this how? this is based on what scientific study? and this evidence you will provide should explain why it should be taken as truth over the consensus of the vast majority of scientists that humans are contributing to global warming. and do not, as you did the last time, make any reference to al gore. he is not the issue. your statement is. back it up.
I don't think there is anyone on the post as much like Bill O'Reilly as you are!
"Moreover, I am more educated in social science than you may know."
-----
I hope so. What you demonstrate is abject ignorance. An introductory course which you failed would be more education on the subject than you show.
Easy to refute wingnuts , you are hilarious.
You go through all the posts and then type that I'm either stupid, I lost the argument, I can't spell, I'm a bigot, I don't know what I'm talking about...etc.
Here's a challenge, answer this question. I'll make everyone happy and make this blog what it is supposed to be about. Do you think people watch Chris Mattews or any other media personality because...
A) They are stupid and don't know what they are listening to.
B) They don't have a choice, there are no alternatives on TV
C) They are smart people who enjoy what they hear and are entertained by these artists.
D) Make another blanket comment that I can't respond to.
LDOREN1626,
In the year 2000 while at my workstation for an IT Consultant firm in Boston, MA, a young 'Conservative' meandered up to my office after having just voted for GW Bush ready to announce to me his 'vote' with a certain amount of pleasure and in a feeble attempt to bait me for having voted for Gore. He is a very conscientious and well educated young man who came from a traditional 'Conservative' family background, and was quite religious to boot. Today, I count him as one of my closest confidants.
At that time, I asked him why he voted for Bush to which he replied, Lowering Taxes, Abortion issue........... All the traditional RW reasons. I looked at him, being some twenty years his senior, and stated. "J", Why did you do that, You will come to resent this. Some 21/2 years elapsed and we have gone on to other positions and at the same time have kept our dilaogue going. He now calls me 2-3 times a week and once inquiringly asked me : 'P', how did you know bush would be a disaster for the country............... I replied, 'J', How did you not know???????????
Today, he has turned a complete 180' and during our conversations, I sense a measure of guilt in his voice when he speaks . In many respects, I maintain he has come of age and has opened his intellect to many and diverse readings which have allowed him to grow both spiritually and personally.He often states that I'm one of only a few people that he can speak to concerning his fears, his concern for his family, etc.
So, for you to say that Liberals ONLY speak to other liberals in a feeble attempt to claim that WE cannot debate the issues is sophomoric and boorish to a fault.
Oh, one other thing, 'J" is just one of many of my conservative friends WHO now are calling me , All of them ,Rebulblicans for Life; voted democratic in the last elections and one in particular stated to me the other day, " Because of George W Bush and The NeoConmen; HE will never vote Republican again, Never as in NADA. He evidently means what he says, He just informed me tha he changed his voting status to Independent, as I am.
Well, I voted for Kerry b/c I think you vote out leaders who do a poor job.
I worked for an environmental group, because I care about the environment, but human-caused global warming is a sham.
And many of my friends are Liberal. My point is that the prior post was high-brow liberalism, which it was.
Lastly, most people on this blog think 90% of the people they talk to are liberal because they only associate with liberals. Why?, well, it's hard to be friends with someone when by expressing your views, you are called a bigot, sexist, homophobe, hate-monger, etc.
Then, you are evidently thin-skinned. Rw'ers on these threads have called me a 'Commie', terrorist sympathizer and ONE who no longer posts here actually suggested that I leave the country for my traitorous commentaries.
So much for the hyperbole. Take a breath.
By starting your post calling me Thin-skinned, and then claiming I should feel sorry for name-calling against you doesn't deserve a response.
"well, it's hard to be friends with someone when by expressing your views, you are called a bigot, sexist, homophobe, hate-monger, etc."
-----
It's not insulting when ones posts are bigoted, sexist, homophobic, and hate-mongering.
Truth is a defense in every libel and slander case.
Okay, find one post of mine that is any of those things.
navy same experience here. i work with probably 50 people directly. probably an even split on bush v gore and the war. i argued with my conservative buddies before the war. i said this was a huge mistake. we are going to end up there for years, we will get the blame from all sides, poppy bush's thoughts by the way. i got all the smug smirks from the gung ho bush supporters. now when i bring it up. most of them look away. and ldoren is clueless. he needs to listen to randi rhodes, ed schultz, thom hartmann [my favorite], because conservatives go to the front of the line.
Mefirst,
The extreme folly of the Republican Party today under Bush and the NeoConmen is that it neither 'Conservative' nor true to its Republican ideals. Notice the stance of Senators Hagel and 'you can't get more conservative' John Warner recently. Need I say more.
A party that has traditionally aligned itself with (1) A reverence for the US Constitution and the 'Bill ofRights' (2) A healthy r spect for traditional allies and an aversion to foreign entanglements (3) A fervent and circumspect stance on fuduciary responsibilities as it relates to the accumulation of National debt.............. I could go on.
What we have today is a cabal of International Revolutionaries , foresaking all traditional conservatice principles............ Essentially a Party that has been hijacked.
True Republicans know this........... They may have to act fast, Otherwise as I have maintained repeatedly in the past............ Bush may go down in history as the President who singlehandely detroyed the Reublican Party.
true navy, i have said repeatedly on here that i do not take the "liberal" position on everything. immigration being one, a population of 450 million psople is a bad idea. and the gop, among a lot of dead wood like harding and bush, has actually produced some decent presidents. teddy roosevelt and ike for two. if the gop was the party they used to be, instead of the haunt of reactionaries, i would give my voting more thought. but in the last twenty five years it hasn't even been a contest.
Truly stated,
I am reminded of the words of my late deceased father, a career firefighter WHO rose to the ranks of Deputy-Chief of a large metropolitan Boston Dept and an ardent Roosevelt-like Democrat WHO came of age in the Depression, one of Tom Brokaw's 'Greatest Generation' and WW2 Army Air Corps Vet, before their was an official Air Force.In one of our discussions before his passing in 1999, He stated to me emphatically that if Fascism ever came to the United States, it would be propelled from the Republican Right or more clealy defined as the rabid right.
Well, here it is. Republicans have always been a minority party and over the last twenty years , They have solicited, paid for, coerced etc the troupe of scoundrels that we have today. It never ceases to amaze me that 'Conservatives' hold up Reagan as some sort of ICON for their cause. It is truly amazing. He increased the National debt to 6 Trillion, oversaw the largest number of criminal indictments of any administration in history, gutted the SEC so Corporations could unleash their Machiavellian and diabolical exploits in emptying the coffers of the S&L Banks. It was an era essentially defined by Coroprate Raiders, Merchants of Debt in a quest that weakened our country and fostered Billionaires out of rogues WHO created nothing.
Neil Bush figures here, Keating, Milken..........
Government Social safety net for the Corps , a form of Corporate Socialism while the American people be damned.
Bush and his NeoConmen cronies have only brought such criminal acts to dizzying heights . They are a cancer on the body politic.
I agree with some of your points, but disagree with many of your points about the state of the Country.
I'll highlight a few points where I disagree.
I believe Reagan was a great President. He understood that wealth and prosperity is generated by the individual, not the Government. As such, taxing more than 50% of anyone's income is wrong. It is extortion.
At any time, 80s, 90s, today, we could cut spending and reduce the debt. The problem is that politicians get elected by showing what they "gave you," rather than what they didn't steal from you. This led to the rampant Debt during the Bush administration.
Economically, this Country is in the best shape it has ever been because of our Capitalist free system of Government, with low taxes. I know many people want to paint the poverty picture of America. Go to any third-world Country and you'll see what poverty really looks like.
Lastly, the truth about Corporations is that they are entities with highly paid executives that employ millions of people. They also provide low-priced goods for poor people to purchase. While many people claim most people aren't invested in the stock market, as workers are investing more and more in 401K plans, everyone in the Country will soon have a stake in Corporations making a profit.
Ronnie Ray-Gun stole more than $2trillion - back in the day when $1billion was still real money - from the people (the 99% who ARE the people, not the 1% who oppress the people) of this country, and put far too much of that into science fiction such as his pet "Star Wars". I demonstrated then, mathematically, that it would be 2015 before the onboard computers could deal adequately even with flight calculations for a single target - un-MIRVed, no decoys - given full Moore's Law as overall rate of advancement, from only the piecemeal initial trajectory data at latest possible launch. Since then, we have drifted a bit behind: in 2006 tests, we STILL cannot hit the target more than one time in four, GIVEN THE FULL TRAJECTORY IN ADVANCE. Unless we do some serious catch-up in "transistor" density increase SOON, closer now to 2020 - single warhead, no decoys - with launch-time data.
He brought the cancellation of the Fairness Doctrine, which is not ALL bad, but failed to replace F.D. with any useful FCC at all.
His "charm" somehow didn't take with me, either, so I suppose we might differ as to his placement on Rushmore.
The relevance, however, is simply that Ray-Gun is not universally scorned due ONLY to the constant MSM cheering for his character (dismal - see Iran, not to mention Contra-Gate) and his leadership (totally absent - remember all that he couldn't remember; although he was fairly good at following the script) and his accomplishments (his administration nearly broke the country, in fact, along with most of it's laws).
So, there is another side of the coin of Corporate Media Oligopoly: not only can they destroy a candidate (Gore, Kerry, whomever or all of the Dems in 2008), they can resurrect the reputation of a cross between a clown and a catastrophe (Ray-Gun, Bungle, whichever disaster the Repugnants shall nominate in 2008).
More than reinstatement of the Fairness Doctrine (too subjective, too difficult to monitor and manage),
We REALLY need Media Ownership Reform!
MORA! MORA! MORA!
I have a question. When they do give the Iraqi Army arms and airplanes, heli-copters...who's going to teach them to use them? How long will that take? Is there any guarantee that they will not be used against the American Armed Forces or thier rival tribes? Who are the enemies? Are they Sunni? Are they Shia? Are they Iranian? What uniform do they wear? Where are their bases? People this IS VIETNAM all over again. We are using the same techniques. Look up Vietnamization...we are using Iraqinization...it will take years and it will not work!
Today there were more children killed in Iraq and yet, YET VP Cheney states things are not bad we just have some security problems there! These people that are in the administration are completely out of touch with reality!
Take my word Iran is on the table.
I will take your word that Iran is on the table, because I already accept and fear that Bungle and the lunatics-in-charge will do anything - ANYTHING - to avoid "losing" in Iraq.