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"Media Matters"; by Jamison Foser

February 09, 2007 9:13 pm ET
This Week:

Ain't No Man Righteous (No Not One)

The media's blogger double standard

Media fall for GOP's Pelosi smears

Ain't No Man Righteous (No Not One)

Last week, ABC played a video clip of Rush Limbaugh accusing "libs" of "prejudice" -- without noting Limbaugh's own voluminous history of outright bigotry.

ABC gave Rush Limbaugh a forum to accuse liberals -- all of them -- of "prejudice."

Rush Limbaugh.

Keep in mind, Rush Limbaugh "resigned" in (further) disgrace from his job at ABC's sister network, ESPN, after making what ESPN described as "insensitive and inappropriate" comments about an African-American NFL quarterback.

But ABC rewards Limbaugh with airtime in which he accuses liberals of prejudice, without noting his own history. Not even a mention. Not even a vague, passing mention of the fact that some people find Limbaugh himself a bit prejudiced. Certainly no mention that Limbaugh once told an African-American caller to "take that bone out of your nose" and insisted that women "actually wish" for sexual harassment and announced "A Chavez is a Chavez. We've always had problems with them."

To ABC, none of that is worth mentioning when it airs Limbaugh's accusations of liberal "prejudice."

It's bad enough that major media outlets insist on pretending that Limbaugh has a place in rational discourse. (The Washington Post's Howard Kurtz memorably called him a "mainstream conservative.") But airing Limbaugh's accusation of "prejudice" on the part of his ideological opposites without making even passing mention of his own bigotry? Simply incredible.

And this is from ABC -- a network whose political director, Mark Halperin, insists that the media have to "prove to conservatives that we understand their grievances" and that "[i]f I were a conservative, I understand why I would feel suspicious that I was not going to get a fair break at the end of an election. We've got to make sure we do better, so conservatives don't have to be concerned about that. It's just -- it's not fair."

Unfortunately, ABC's reliance on Rush Limbaugh as an authority on prejudice in others was only prelude to the absurdity that came this week.

Right-wing blogger Michelle Malkin -- who, it is important to keep in mind, has ties to a website that publishes white nationalist writings and who wrote a book titled In Defense of Internment -- began criticizing two bloggers recently hired by Democratic presidential candidate John Edwards' campaign, describing the bloggers' previous writings as "foul-mouthed nutroots diatribes" and "lunatic blogging" and "unhinged." Malkin, fresh off an unsuccessful smear campaign she waged against the Associated Press, pursued the bloggers with her typical zeal, even going so far as to post on her site a video in which she performed a dramatic reading of several blog posts.

Malkin's assault on the bloggers was joined on February 6 by National Review Online editor Kathryn Jean Lopez, who posted an article accusing one of the Edwards bloggers of "anti-Catholic rants." Catholic League president Bill Donohue responded with a press release in which he called for the bloggers to be fired, declaring, "John Edwards is a decent man who has had his campaign tarnished by two anti-Catholic vulgar trash-talking bigots. He has no choice but to fire them immediately."

Donohue's attacks on the bloggers were promptly and dutifully typed up and distributed to a larger audience by the Associated Press and The New York Times.

Within hours of his release, the AP ran an article by reporter Nedra Pickler that quoted Donohue, quoted the blog posts he highlighted, and explained: "The Catholic League counts its membership at nearly 350,000." That was the only explanation Pickler gave of who Donohue is.

The next morning, The New York Times joined in with an article by John Broder. Broder also quoted Donohue and the blog posts he complained about. Like Pickler, Broder did little to help his readers understand who Donohue is, describing the Catholic League simply as "a conservative religious group."

CNN and MSNBC got in on the act, interviewing Donohue. Like the AP and New York Times, neither CNN nor MSNBC bothered to tell viewers anything about Bill Donohue.

And Bill Donohue's own history is directly relevant to this story. Put simply, Bill Donohue is a bigot and a hypocrite.

Donohue has said:

  • "People don't trust the Muslims when it comes to liberty." [MSNBC's Scarborough Country, 2/9/06]
  • "The gay community has yet to apologize to straight people for all the damage that they have done." [MSNBC's Scarborough Country, 4/11/05]
  • Addressing former Rep. Mark Foley (R-FL) in a press release, Donohue asked: "[W]hy didn't you just smack the clergyman in the face? After all, most 15-year-old teenage boys wouldn't allow themselves to be molested. So why did you?" [10/4/06]
  • "We've already won. Who really cares what Hollywood thinks? All these hacks come out there. Hollywood is controlled by secular Jews who hate Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular. It's not a secret, OK? And I'm not afraid to say it. ... Hollywood likes anal sex. They like to see the public square without nativity scenes. I like families. I like children. They like abortions. I believe in traditional values and restraint. They believe in libertinism. We have nothing in common. But you know what? The culture war has been ongoing for a long time. Their side has lost." [MSNBC's Scarborough Country, 12/8/04]
  • "Well, look, there are people in Hollywood, not all of them, but there are some people who are nothing more than harlots. They will do anything for the buck. They wouldn't care. If you asked them to sodomize their own mother in a movie, they would do so, and they would do it with a smile on their face." [MSNBC's Scarborough Country, 2/9/06]

Even in his criticism of the Edwards bloggers, Donohue couldn't resist some questionable comments, calling the two adult women "little brats" and "these two beauties."

Donohue's history of anti-gay, anti-Semitic, and anti-Muslim comments is particularly interesting in light of his habitual claims that anti-Catholic comments are tolerated when similar comments about other groups of people would not be. Just this week, Donohue has said:

  • DONOHUE: "On four occasions between September and the end of December, [Rosie O'Donnell] has lashed out at the Catholic Church. Ditto for Joy Behar. Their relentless and profoundly ignorant attacks on the Catholic Church and its teachings would never be tolerated by the show's co-owner, Barbara Walters, if it were Judaism or Islam that was under attack. But when it comes to Catholicism, she gives these two 'raised' Catholics all the time they want to vent their adolescent anger."
  • DONOHUE: "When Mel Gibson got drunk and made anti-Semitic remarks, he paid a price for doing so. When Michael Richards got angry and made racist remarks, he paid a price for doing so. When Isaiah Washington got ticked off and made anti-gay remarks, he paid a price for doing so. ... Edwards said today that 'We're beginning a great debate about the future of our country, and we can't let it be hijacked.' I have news for him -- the Catholic League -- not Edwards -- will decide what the debate will be about, and it won't be about the nation. It will be about the glaring double standard that colors the entire conversation about bigotry."
  • DONOHUE: "The purpose of this communication is to ignite a national discussion on the incredible double standard that exists regarding bigotry in American life."
  • DONOHUE: "Just today, Rosie O'Donnell and Joy Behar went on, lashing out against the Catholic Church today, on a subject which had nothing to do with Catholicism. They're talking about Ted Haggard. And Barbara Walters sat there, once again. Had they attacked Islam or Judaism, she would have raised almighty hell."

And that's just this week.

Donohue's history of "mindless bullying" and "bigoted" comments led Frances Kissling, president of Catholics for a Free Choice, to send a letter to The New York Times in which she described as "troubling" the Times' decision to print "the press releases of a group this marginal and this bigoted ... without any contextualization." Kissling wrote:

It would be unfortunate if John Edwards were to cave in to the mindless bullying of groups like the Catholic League or even think that groups like it have any influence with mainstream Catholic voters. ... Despite the Catholic League's attempts to paint all critics of the Catholic church as anti-Catholic, the reality is that comments by its own leaders do far more to brand Catholics as bigots than any critic of the church could ever do. Anti-gay, anti-woman, anti-Semitic and anti-Muslim statements by William Donohue, the League's president, abound.

The Times has not yet published Kissling's letter as of this writing; it is available at Alternet.org.

Kissling isn't the first religious leader to take issue with Donohue. As Media Matters noted, Women's Wear Daily reported on February 2:

But the same thing that keeps Donohue in the press prevents him from becoming truly respectable within the religious community, where his antics are a source of frequent consternation.

Mark Silk, director of the Center for the Study of Religion in Public Life at Trinity College said, "He's a thug. He reverts to bullying because he thinks that's what the job entails."

Rev. Mark Massa, a Jesuit priest and co-director of the Curran Center for American Catholic Studies at Fordham University, accused Donohue of being unable to differentiate between healthy debate and real religious bigotry. "Not everyone who criticizes the church is anti-Catholic," he said.

The editors at the Catholic weekly magazine America seem to agree. In 2000, they chastised Donohue for denouncing movies he hadn't even watched. "While being first may increase one's chances of attracting media attention, there is a danger that the Catholic League reinforces the stereotype that the Catholic Church is at best unreflective and at worst unfairly biased and paranoid," wrote Rev. James Martin. "In the long run, this may do more harm to the church's reputation than a short-lived movie or play."

But The New York Times, AP, CNN, and MSNBC all ignored Donohue's own history of bigotry and ignored the statements of religious leaders who have denounced him as a bullying thug and "at best unreflective and at worst unfairly biased and paranoid." Recalling ABC's decision to quote Rush Limbaugh's attacks on liberal "prejudice" without giving viewers any information about his own prejudice, the nation's leading news organizations simply repeated Donohue's attack on the Edwards bloggers. Readers and viewers were deprived of the information they need to assess his credibility.

But the whitewash of Donohue's history wasn't limited to his bigotry. The AP, New York Times, CNN, and MSNBC also ignored his history of rather selective outrage.

In 2004, a Catholic presidential candidate was viciously smeared by a man who had a history of insulting Catholics. Naturally, Donohue rushed to the candidate's defense and blasted the bigotry of the attacker, right?

No. Bill Donohue remained silent. He didn't say a word about Jerome Corsi's attacks on John Kerry, nor did he criticize Corsi's anti-Catholic comments, which Media Matters first exposed in August 2004.

Nearly two years later, in February 2006, Donohue finally got around to mentioning Corsi. But he didn't criticize Corsi; instead, he defended Corsi (whom he referred to as "Jerry"). Corsi had "long apologized" for his "quips," Donohue said.

Why would the Catholic League remain silent about Corsi's anti-Catholic comments? The league claims, "When slanderous assaults are made against the Catholic Church, the Catholic League hits the newspapers, television, and radio talk shows defending the right of the Church to promote its teachings with as much verve as any other institution in society."

Yet Donohue and the Catholic League were silent when Jerome Corsi -- a man with a history of anti-Catholic comments -- smeared a Catholic presidential candidate.

Why was Donohue quiet about Corsi's comments in 2004? And why did Donohue rush to the defense of George W. Bush's Catholic outreach coordinator after news broke that he had engaged in a drunken sexual encounter with an 18-year-old student while he was a professor? That same year, Donohue took a different approach to Kerry campaign religious outreach workers: He tried to get them fired.

Donohue's inconsistency suggests his purported outrage about the Edwards bloggers may be less than sincere -- and certainly should have been part of any news report about his attacks on the bloggers.

But as the week went on, Donohue's inconsistency only got worse.

On Feburary 8, the Edwards campaign released statements from the two bloggers and from Edwards himself. Edwards described some of the posts the bloggers wrote before joining the campaign as containing "intolerant language [that] will not be permitted from anyone on my campaign, whether it's intended as satire, humor, or anything else." Edwards went on to say that the bloggers "assured me that it was never their intention to malign anyone's faith." Amanda Marcotte, of the blog Pandagon, said, "My intention is never to offend anyone for his or her personal beliefs, and I am sorry if anyone was personally offended by writings meant only as criticisms of public politics." Melissa McEwan, of Shakespeare's Sister, added, "It has never been my intention to disparage people's individual faith, and I'm sorry if my words were taken in that way."

Now, given that Donohue defended Corsi, insisting that Corsi's comments were simply "quips" and that Corsi had "apologized," you might think Donohue would accept the bloggers' assurance that no offense was intended and move on.

You might be even more sure that he would accept their explanation and move on if you remembered his response to Mel Gibson's anti-Semitic outburst, in which Donohue noted, "There's a lot of people who have made comments which are bigoted who are not necessarily bigots"; said he was "concerned now about piling on"; and said of those who continued to criticize Gibson: "Who gives a damn about those people? ... What kind of blood do they want out of this man?"

Ah, but that's what Bill Donohue says about anti-Semitic outbursts by conservative actors, and anti-Catholic comments by right-wing hatchet men. For people like them, forgiveness comes easily. But not for bloggers employed by a Democratic campaign.

Donohue responded to the statements with typical venom. Donohue immediately issued another press release, this one making strange reference to the "Soros/Hollywood gang" (remember, according to Donohue, Hollywood "likes anal sex" and "is controlled by secular Jews") and promising "a nationwide public relations blitz that will be conducted on the pages of the New York Times." Donohue promised that the Catholic League will control the public debate "and it won't be about the nation. It will be about the glaring double standard that colors the entire conversation about bigotry."

A debate about "the glaring double standard that colors the entire conversation about bigotry" is surely one Donohue would lose -- if, that is, the national media ever bothered to explain who he is and what he has said in the past. Donohue's threats amusingly contained a promise that "[w]e will also reach out to our allies in the Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim and Buddhist communities."

Presumably, Donohue will keep quiet about that whole "People don't trust the Muslims when it comes to liberty" business when he's making calls to Muslim leaders. And it's probably best if someone else makes the Jewish outreach calls, too.

Donohue's refusal to accept the bloggers' explanation and apology is not only inconsistent with his approach to Gibson and Corsi, it also makes him, by the Catholic League's own logic, a bad Catholic. As Media Matters Senior Fellow Duncan Black noted on his personal blog, the Catholic League's website explains the importance of forgiveness:

The Catholic League has never failed to accept the apology of anyone who has offended us. And this includes recidivists, the repeat offenders. When asked by reporters why we do so, I simply say "we have no other choice." In other words, because Catholicism puts a premium on forgiveness, we must accept any apology that appears to be sincere. It's too bad the rest of the nation isn't more Catholic.

"It's too bad the rest of the nation isn't more Catholic"? It's too bad the Catholic League isn't more Catholic.

Naturally, Donohue's second outburst won him another New York Times article, in which Broder once again declined to tell his readers who Donohue is. Broder interviewed and quoted Donohue, but gave readers no hint that Donohue has a shameful history of bigoted comments, no inkling that he has inconsistently expressed his outrage, not so much as a suggestion that he has actually defended Mel Gibson and Jerome Corsi from criticism of their own controversial comments.

Keep in mind: Broder's second Times article appeared after he and the paper had already taken criticism -- from Media Matters and countless blogs, among others -- for printing Donohue's charges of bigotry without providing necessary context about his own history.

The lack of context in the first article could, we suppose, be the result of shocking incompetence -- not knowing about, and not bothering to check on, Donohue's background. But the second? What can possibly explain the decision by Broder and his New York Times editors to omit any information about Donohue from the second article?

Whatever the reason, it is simply shameful. Whatever the reason, it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that -- intentional or otherwise -- The New York Times is rigging the public debate. It is rigging a presidential campaign. It is rigging the public discussion of prejudice, of Catholicism, of religion itself.

It prints allegations of bigotry by Bill Donohue, a man with his own extensive history of bigotry -- but does not mention that history. It omits any mention of his inconsistency, of hypocrisy. When a Catholic leader writes to the Times to complain that Donohue is not representative of Catholics and should not be quoted "without any contextualization," the Times declines to print the letter -- then runs another article quoting Donohue but again omitting any discussion of his background.

This is, simply, rigged.

And it's going to remain rigged until every progressive who is sick of this garbage vocally and publicly takes the Times and other news outlets that behave this way to task. Not just Media Matters, not just bloggers. Everyone. This isn't the first time Donohue has attacked a progressive; he's built an entire career around it. And it won't be the last. It's Edwards now; it will be someone else soon enough.

And it's going to remain rigged until every Catholic -- every person of faith -- who doesn't share the bigotry and hatred that drive so-called religious leaders like Bill Donohue and Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell insist that the national media stop pretending that these hate merchants represent them.

The media's blogger double standard

The speed with which major news organizations pounced on the Edwards blogger story was just the latest reminder that the media treat progressive bloggers and conservative bloggers far differently. As Media Matters detailed, bloggers and others recently hired by John McCain's presidential campaign have not gotten the scrutiny given to the Edwards bloggers.

The Politico's Mike Allen called the tempest "the revenge of the right-wing bloggers," claiming "Don't we normally hear about the left-wing bloggers and them going after people? Here, it was Christian bloggers, or conservative bloggers, who pulled out past postings by a couple of bloggers that were hired by the Edwards campaign."

That sentiment -- that "the left-wing bloggers" are the ones who "go after people" -- is common among political journalists. Last July, we detailed media criticism of "left-wing screeching" by "frothing bloggers" whose writing contained "vitriol" that was "uninformed, malicious and disproportionate." As we noted at the time:

Meanwhile, vitriol, hate, and even threats of physical violence by conservative bloggers draw comparatively little attention. For example:

Misha of The Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler on the Supreme Court: "Five ropes, five robes, five trees. Some assembly required." [7/11/06]

BC of The Anti-Idiotarian Rottweiler on John Kerry: "Rope. Tree. Justice. The only three things that Qerry [sic] deserves for his 'service'." [10/28/04]

[...]

Megan McCardle (who uses the pseudonym Jane Galt) on anti-war demonstrators in New York City: "I think some in New York are going to laugh even harder when they try to unleash some civil disobedience, Lenin style, and some New Yorker who understands the horrors of war all too well picks up a two-by-four and teaches them how very effective violence can be when it's applied in a firm, pre-emptive manner." [2/13/03]

[...]

Denny K of The Flying Monkey-Right Blog in reaction to the Rumsfeld-Cheney photos: "Let's start with the following New York Times reporters and editors: Arthur 'Pinch' Sulzberger Jr., Bill Keller, Eric Lichtblau, and James Risen. Do you have an idea where they live? Go hunt them down and do America a favor. Get their photo, street address, where their kids go to school, anything you can dig up, and send it to the link above. This is your chance to be famous -- grab for the golden ring." [7/02/06]

(Progressive blogger Glenn Greenwald, the author of How Would A Patriot Act?: Defending American Values from a President Run Amok (Working Assets Publishing, May 2006), has cataloged more examples here, here, here, and here.)

This week's firestorm over the Edwards bloggers is just a continuation of that trend: Right-wing bloggers like Michelle Malkin spew nonstop hate and venom, and the media turn a blind eye. Then, when those same conservative bloggers begin complaining about progressives, the media pay attention.

Of course, the media double standard isn't limited to conservative bloggers. Indeed, the real hypocrisy is evident when looking at news organizations themselves.

On February 6, ABCNews.com featured a post by reporter Terry Moran titled "Does John Edwards Condone Hate Speech?" We have yet to see an ABC reporter question whether ABC condones hate speech. ABC, after all, is the network that features on its news broadcasts Rush Limbaugh -- the nation's pre-eminent practitioner of hate speech -- complaining about liberal prejudice.

ABC is also the network that recently signed up Glenn Beck as a "regular commentator" despite his history of inflammatory comments regarding Muslims, Arabs, Mexicans, and other minorities. Beck famously told a Muslim congressman that he felt like asking him to "prove to me that you are not working with our enemies." And he once fantasized aloud on his radio show about killing Michael Moore.

Then ABC hired him.

And ABC Radio is the owner of KSFO, where hosts ask callers to prove they are not Muslim by calling Allah a "whore" and refer to Barack Obama as a "Halfrican."

So, does John Edwards condone hate speech? Maybe ABC should first ask that question of themselves.

Moving on ... how about Time magazine? Time ran an article this week that addressed the "pitfalls of putting bloggers to use" by describing the Edwards bloggers' previous work as "provocative and profanity-laced."

The Washington editor of Time.com rose to fame largely as a result of provocative and profanity-laced posts about anal sex on Wonkette.com.

Then Time hired her.

And Fox ... we'll just skip Fox. No use trying to find anything offensive there.

What about CNN? Like ABC, they hired Glenn Beck. NBC? They can't get enough of Ann Coulter; she was on the Today show yet again this week. And they employ Chris Matthews, who makes near-daily comments about Hillary Clinton that would probably be considered sexist if not for the Clinton rules of journalism (you can say any damn thing you want, as long as you say it about the Clintons.) And, of course, Tucker Carlson, who equates homosexuality with adultery, refers to "grouchy feminists with mustaches," and frequently peppers his commentary with caddish comments.

Do bloggers -- liberal and conservative -- sometimes make intemperate remarks? Of course. Who doesn't? But before the major media get too sanctimonious about foul-mouthed liberal bloggers, they might want to take a look at right-wing bloggers who actually encourage acts of violence -- and at their own hiring practices.

Media fall for GOP's Pelosi smears

In between uncritically reporting Bill Donohue's every utterance and keeping us up to date on the latest in the Anna Nicole Smith soap opera (ABC has sent at least eight breaking news emails on that topic since yesterday; longtime readers of this column many remember that ABC didn't send a single such email when Rosa Parks died), the media found time to participate in the GOP's most recent smear of House Speaker Nancy Pelosi.

Even White House press secretary Tony Snow and Republican Congressmen Jeff Flake and Ray LaHood acknowledged that the attacks by congressional Republicans and the RNC on Pelosi over what plane she flies on are bogus.

But that hasn't stopped the media from going along with the attacks, repeating phony spin and fake facts and generally refusing to distinguish truth from fiction.

Media Matters Senior Fellow Eric Boehlert will address the media's handling of the Pelosi plane nonsense in his column next Tuesday (stay tuned!). For now, those interested in the truth can browse Media Matters' extensive work on this topic here. Think Progress and Greg Sargent also have useful refutations of this foolishness.

Expand All Expand 1st Level Collapse All Add Comment
    • Author by steeve (February 09, 2007 9:39 pm ET)
         

      Sorry, but Rush is a mainstream conservative.  The republican party leadership is still in lockstep with him, and his audience is still large.

      All you "thinking" conservatives who whine about how nuts like Limbaugh don't speak for you and how the current administration doesn't represent "real" conservative values don't have a leg to stand on.  You all cheered on the lying about Clinton and Gore, voted for Bush, and will vote for McCain.

      The disastrous failure of this administration is likewise the disastrous failure of conservative ideas.  Conservatives must never be given another chance.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by RINO Hunter (February 10, 2007 3:12 pm ET)
           

        "Conservatives must never be given another chance"

        That's a nice fantasy you have there. The fact of the matter is that if the Republicans nominate either John McCain or Rudolph Guliani for President, either one will win in a landslide. Independents and moderate Democrats love both of these guys. And the good thing is that they are both conservative on economic issues and foreign policy issues, and will put good judges on the court. Get ready for at least four more years of a Republican President!

        Report Abuse
        • Author by solon (February 10, 2007 4:27 pm ET)
             

          Dream on. The country is fed up with rightwing conservative nonsense and the neandrathal base wont turn out for either McCain OR Guiliani. Notice the razor thin margins of the Presidential election Bush DID win and that he lost the popular vote by more than half a million in 2000 without the neandrathals you guys CANT WIN the presidency. Wave bye-bye, to the White House, unless something drastic happens there wont be a Republican in it in 09

          Report Abuse
          • Author by RINO Hunter (February 10, 2007 6:17 pm ET)
               

            "without the neandrathals you guys CANT WIN the presidency"

            Hmmm. Who are the neandrathals? I thought that they didn't exist anymore. Also, I'm pretty sure that if Hillary Clinton is the Democratic candidate for Predident, conservatives will turn out in droves to vote for the Republican on the ticket, regardless of who it is. They'll simply view it as voting for the lesser of two evils.

            Report Abuse
            • Author by roundhouse (February 10, 2007 6:34 pm ET)
                 

              Hillary practically is a conservative.

              Report Abuse
              • Author by RINO Hunter (February 10, 2007 7:40 pm ET)
                   

                Compared to Fidel Castro, maybe. But compared to the average American, she's ultra liberal.

                Report Abuse
                • Author by solon (February 10, 2007 9:12 pm ET)
                     

                  No she isnt. I am an ultra liberal. The former Goldwater Girl Hillary is moderate at best. Always has been.  She has never been very liberal and wishing wont make it so, niether will repeating it like a mantra. It isnt reality and there is no magic number of times you can repeat it to make it true

                   

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by RINO Hunter (February 10, 2007 10:19 pm ET)
                       

                    "The former Goldwater Girl Hillary"

                    Hmmm. I think I remember that Reagan was a Democrat at one time. Does that make him a moderate as well?

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by solon (February 11, 2007 1:51 am ET)
                         

                      No that makes Raygun dead. Hillay IS moderate for the simple reason she isnt very far left.

                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by redking75687 (February 11, 2007 12:35 pm ET)
                           

                        I wouldn't even call her moderate...she's a right-winger. She favours all the right wing policies of repression and corruption.

                        Report Abuse
                • Author by prof (February 11, 2007 6:19 pm ET)
                     

                  Nope.  You're just so far to the right that you wouldn't recognize a moderate if he, or she, bit you in the a$$.

                  Report Abuse
            • Author by solon (February 10, 2007 7:14 pm ET)
                 

              People who think Weiner, Limbaugh and Coulter in any way represent reality are neandrathals. Keep wishing. The GOP has no shot at the presidency in 08 and the Senate they will pick up a whole lot of seats, perhaps six or more.

              Report Abuse
          • Author by roundhouse (February 10, 2007 6:33 pm ET)
               

            Agreed.

            Gay rights? Abortion? McCain and Guiliani just don't fervently tow the party line enough for the GOP base. Nor would their position on Iraq appeal to moderates and independents as more than two thirds of the population oppose the occupation of Iraq. That's alright I guess. Rino (TTD) never lets reality influence his perception of conservative LaLa land.

            But you know, just for the heck of it when conservatives start talking about liberal litmus tests as Limbaugh is wont to do. It would be interesting to see the percentages of pro-life democrats elected versus the percentages of pro-choice republicans elected.

            Further. It is conservative economic policy that sunk the republicans. The binge spending of republicans who would chastise liberal economic policy is high comedy. I mean almost 9 BILLION dollars went missing in Iraq under the intoxicated watch of the CPA cronies. Ther is also the intentional crippling of FEMA and other effective government funded public institutions. Grand institutions like public education and the V.A.

            More laughs? Conservative tax policy that conflates the real economic problems of the middle class with the very manageable economic problems of the very wealthy. What a stitch. How about the blind adulation of a market that rewards hard work and loyalty with automation and outsourcing? That's a hoot.

            It's good to see Foser get a little pissed at the smear gangs who give aid and comfort to these republican failures.

            Good work JF.

            Report Abuse
            • Author by RINO Hunter (February 10, 2007 7:43 pm ET)
                 

              "It would be interesting to see the percentages of pro-life democrats elected versus the percentages of pro-choice republicans elected"

              You're right. Pro life Democrats are pretty much unheard of in Congress. I can only think of two in the Senate. There are a lot more pro choice Republicans than pro life Democrats.

              Report Abuse
    • Author by IRONY 101 (February 09, 2007 9:43 pm ET)
         

      Excellent summary, Jamison.

      BTW, ever think that Bill Donohue needs to be bitch-slapped by the Pope?  Donohue does as much to give the Catholic Church a bad name as buggering priests.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by fkfhfgjhgyh (February 09, 2007 9:56 pm ET)
           

        Interesting.  Divide and conquer and having somebody else fight your battles both in one statement.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (February 10, 2007 1:15 pm ET)
             

          "Interesting.  Divide and conquer and having somebody else fight your battles both in one statement."

          -----

          Look at the name of the poster. Irony is merely taking a page from the Conservative songbook and singing it out loud.

          It's more interesting that you don't like the tactic when it's used against people who agree with you. 

          Report Abuse
    • Author by mefirst (February 09, 2007 9:44 pm ET)
         

      found something in the 2-2-07 south florida sun-sentinel, a page one story about the new u. n. global warming report and it's effect on florida, a state where even a moderate rise in sea level will make a big difference. " 'this is a u.n. backed body that quite frankly is an advocacy group for controls on carbon emissions,' said tom harris, executive director to the natural resources stewardship project, a leading clearing house for challenges to the science behind global warming". and exactly how long has this "leading clearing house" been around? it seems it's creation was announced on oct. 12, 2006. and who is harris? he is a former employee of a p.r. firm called apco worldwide. the "chairman" of nrsp is tim ball, a former member of the "friends of science". who are they? from desmogblog.com: "the globe and mail [canadian newspaper on 7-12-06] says that friends of science has taken undisclosed sums from alberta oil and gas interests. the money was funneled to the calgary foundation, to the university of calgary, and on to the f.o.s. through something called the science education fund." many of the same people seem to be share membership between the two groups.  sounds like 2 and 2 could make 4. both the so florida sun sentinel and the orlando sentinel are owned by the chicago tribune co.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by mefirst (February 10, 2007 1:05 pm ET)
           

        from ellen goodman's boston globe column: "try these numbers [pew research center]: only 23% of college educated republicans believe the warming is due to humans, while 75% of college educated democrats believe it. this great divide comes from the science-bedamned-and-debunked attitude of the bush administration and it's favorite media outlets. the day of the report, big oil sen. james inhofe of oklahoma actually described it as 'a shining example of the corruption of science for political gain'.  speaking of the corruption of science, the american enterprise institute, which has gotten $1.6 million over the years from exxon mobil, offered $10,000 last summer to scientists who would counter the i.p.c.c. report." and then you have the comments [heard this on the bob and tom radio show] like "global warming, look how cold it is now."  of course, no one has ever said that winter is going completely away all of a sudden. because we are talking about raises in the range of single digits. but even a couple of degrees is enough to cause significant changes.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by mefirst (February 11, 2007 10:15 am ET)
             

          just watching faux news sunday. paul gigot of the wall street journal, juan williams, kristol, and some woman listed as a "fox news contributor". naturally she knew the talking points. chris wallace told williams that he "ran the clock out again". gee, i guess being outnumbered four to one by the right wing parrots is still too much for fox. gigot said "we went to war because of wmd, which the cia said they had".  nah. as williams pointed out, the bush people were "cherry picking". they even had their own group, the "office of special plans", to pick out the stuff that supported their view. and  once again, that missing two months before the war that no one at fox can remember, when the inspectors were in iraq and finding nothing at the sites we told them to go to. wallace also continues to list kristol as a columnist for the "weekly standard", and fails to note he writes for "time". since time is far better known,  the only reason to do that is because it would tend to show that maybe the mainstream media is not that "liberal" if they have neocons like kristol.

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    • Author by RINO Hunter (February 09, 2007 10:46 pm ET)
         

      "But airing Limbaugh's accusation of "prejudice" on the part of his ideological opposites without making even passing mention of his own bigotry? Simply incredible"

      Not really. Limbaugh isn't prejudiced in the least bit. Conservatives like Limbaugh and myself simply want a color blind society in which people are judged according to the content of their character and not the color of their skin. Liberals are the ones who are prejudiced against whites with their reverse discrimination policies. Limbaugh isn't racist in the least. Media Matters is simply a political attack machine. Nothing more.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by mefirst (February 09, 2007 10:53 pm ET)
           

        which is why limbaugh said rex grossman was being attacked because he was a white quarterback, in a super bowl game that had two white qurterbacks, one of whom won the mvp award. if there is some logic to limbaugh's charge, i am baffled as to what it could be.  

        Report Abuse
      • Author by redking75687 (February 09, 2007 11:06 pm ET)
           

        So why do so many conservatives have such horrible characters, but are praised by Limbaugh and his loyalists? Rush Limbaugh shows all the signs of alienated/dyssocial sociopathy. The man is literally insane.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by HuntingtonBeachLefty (February 09, 2007 11:44 pm ET)
             

          Insane, but not stupid. He manages to hold onto an audience that is happy to ignore their own senses and worship him for reinforcing their beliefs.

          As long as he can convince other people who think like he does that they're both right, he'll have his fans and apologists.

          Report Abuse
          • Author by redking75687 (February 10, 2007 6:23 pm ET)
               

            That's the dyssocial part. Dyssocial sociopathy can be called the gangster mental illness. Dyssocials seek other sociopaths to gang together with, usually under a truly psychopathic leader. They delight in doing wrong because others complain about it, they live for the negative attention it brings. The Republican Party has become a magnet for them, much like the Nazi Party was a magnet for all the thugs and sadists in 1930's Germany.

            Report Abuse
      • Author by IRONY 101 (February 10, 2007 7:39 am ET)
           

        "Conservatives... simply want a color blind society"

        Sure, Rino... conservatives believe that middle-class and affluent people like themselves should not be judged by the color of their skin... of course, it's only a coincidence that most are white. 

        Report Abuse
      • Author by solon (February 10, 2007 12:32 pm ET)
           

        Oh, C'mon. You have lost all touch with reality. Take that bone out of your nose, a Chavez is a Chavez? Pure bigotry your post was simple delusional fantasy. Only another bigot could possibly make appolgies for such outright racism and pretend it makes sense.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by RINO Hunter (February 10, 2007 3:03 pm ET)
             

          The bone comment was made in like 1970 or something like that. There was a lot of racism back then. People can change their minds about race and equality. Robert Bird is a former KKK member. I don't see too many liberals criticizing him for that.

          Report Abuse
          • Author by Brabantio (February 10, 2007 3:18 pm ET)
               

            1970?  Was it a common view that black people had bones through their noses then?  I don't think Rush was even on the radio then, but even so...

            I think you have to go back a tad further to make the "a lot of racism" argument for that comment.  Like the year 1650 or so.

            Report Abuse
            • Author by RINO Hunter (February 10, 2007 3:31 pm ET)
                 

              http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2549

              The article says it was in the 1970's. I'm not sure about the exact year. Also, are you saying that there wasn't a lot of racism in the 1960's when Segregation was still going on? Ask any black person if there was a lot of racism in the 60's. I'm sure they'll tell you there was.

              Report Abuse
              • Author by Brabantio (February 10, 2007 4:02 pm ET)
                   

                I'm saying that comment is exceptionally racist no matter what year it is.  The context of racism in the 60's and 70's does not excuse it one iota.

                Report Abuse
          • Author by IRONY 101 (February 10, 2007 3:23 pm ET)
               

            You're saying Rush Limbaugh made the reported "take that bone out of your nose" public remark when he was about 20 years old (1970)? I don't know if that is accurate, but if it is I would ask what has he done since then. Has he exemplified a more developed racial sensitivity? Not in my observation, he hasn't.

            On the other hand, Robert Byrd repudiated his racist past. He admitted he was wrong and, I believe, has apologized. Byrd has paid a heavy price for his past because his KKK membership will always be a part of his record... a huge black mark on his legacy. And some people may understandably never forgive him for his past. But I greatly admire people who have the capacity to grow emotionally and intellectually. On the other hand, what I find repugnant are people who refuse to budge, who refuse to grow, or to distance themselves from wrong-headed unenlightenment.

            Report Abuse
          • Author by solon (February 10, 2007 4:35 pm ET)
               

            And he appologized for it like Byrd has over and over WHEN? So your point is he WAS a racist then but he isnt now though he made the a Chavez is a Chavez statement in WHAT 04? You dont really expect me to take that seriously do you? The claim Rush isnt the least bit prejudiced is pure delusion. You can only POSSIBLY believe it because you WANT to not because there is the slightest reason to.

            Report Abuse
          • Author by moe (February 10, 2007 5:20 pm ET)
               

            Apparently there is a lot of racism now as well . Seems Limbaugh is never short on racists comments...and why should he be?  That's how he thinks.  He's always taken out of context, mis-quoted, misunderstood and on and on it goes.  Poor Rush Limbaugh, if we only understood what a great American civil rights icon he is.

            Again its astonishing that his sponsors don't bail.  But maybe money trumps common decency.

             

            Report Abuse
            • Author by IRONY 101 (February 10, 2007 5:33 pm ET)
                 

              "He's always taken out of context, mis-quoted, misunderstood and on and on it goes." 

              With "talent on loan from God' you would think that Rush would express himself so that his meaning is clearly understood by all. Maybe this is all God's fault that Rush is misunderstood. Or maybe it's just we liberals who are so evil and conniving and power hungry and blah, blah, blah... that we're pretending to misunderstand him. I honestly didn't know what a bad person I was until Rush Limbaugh came around. Thank you, Rush... I'll to do better.

              Report Abuse
            • Author by Pithaughn (February 12, 2007 1:13 pm ET)
                 

              Moe, yes, the large media outlets are in it for the money. Here is the email sent to me regarding my inquiry about why this particular station aired only right wing commentary, and in particluar why no rebuttal or opposing views to Savage were aired. (Naive me, I assumed that since it was AM radio, they were supposed to allow opposing views per some FCC rules)

              "

              Thanks for writing, Craig.  On the surface, your idea makes sense -- let's have balance and diversity.   However, it's kind of like the person at the rock and roll station saying, "let's give our listeners a little break, and we'll play some classical or country music this afternoon ... then after a couple of hours, we go back to rock and roll.  We have done this kind of thing before many years ago.  What happened is that the conservative listeners tuned out when the liberal (progressive) programming came on, and they would often forget for a number of hours (or days), to come back to the conservative programming.   And, the liberal listeners would forget to tune in at all, because the programming wasn't there all day long.  Sooooo, the station lost listeners, ratings and money.  For years, too, we ran ABC Information News, which our listeners perceived as left-leaning.  There was alway this constant complaint of ... Rush Limbaugh said such and such, and then, at the top of the hour, ABC news said just the opposite.  Our listeners also perceive that ABC-TV, NBC-TV, CBS-TV, CNN, Rocky Mt. News, MSNBC, New York Times, etc., all slant left, and that Talk Radio is one of the few oases of conservative ideas.  Sorry, I'm so wordy.  Have a great new year!  Jim TerLouw, General Manager, KNZZ"Catch that comment about ABC? wow. And who exactly syndicats this hate radio crap???

              Report Abuse
      • Author by skiploader1111 (February 10, 2007 1:14 pm ET)
           

        Rino Hunter, leveling the playing field in America is NOT reverse discrimination.  That is what affirmative action is.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by RINO Hunter (February 10, 2007 3:00 pm ET)
             

          Sorry, but I don't think that it's necessary to hold down one group of people in order to raise another. The goal is to have equality for all, not special rights for certain groups of people. It shouldn't matter what color you are. Employers should hire the person who is the most qualified for the job. Race shouldn't be a factor.

          Report Abuse
          • Author by dave_chicago (February 10, 2007 3:29 pm ET)
               

            "Employers should hire the person who is the most qualified for the job. Race shouldn't be a factor." 

            And though we've repressed and oppressed you for 200 years, don't come looking to us for any help. 

            Report Abuse
            • Author by RINO Hunter (February 10, 2007 3:32 pm ET)
                 

              Two wrongs don't make a right.

              Report Abuse
              • Author by Brabantio (February 10, 2007 4:16 pm ET)
                   

                A superbly simplistic reply.  Think about it this way;

                What if there was no racism?

                Then, you would have a level playing field, or very close to it.  And then it would balance out, with black people and white people getting the same level jobs in adequate proportions.  Compare that to what it is now.  Obviously, many of the people who complain about affirmative action taking their job never would have that job on a level playing field.  That's simple math, unless you believe that black people are naturally inferior.  So why is trying to attain the goal of the workforce we would have if racism didn't exist "wrong"?  Because it's taking away jobs from people who wouldn't have them if the system wasn't so lopsided?  How could the problem ever get fixed, then?

                Report Abuse
                • Author by RINO Hunter (February 10, 2007 6:05 pm ET)
                     

                  "And then it would balance out, with black people and white people getting the same level jobs in adequate proportions"

                  Not at all. That's like saying that if we had a fair economic system, everybody would earn the exact same income. The fact of the matter is that there are winners and losers in life. The stats show that, on average, blacks don't do as well in school as whites, they have a much higher drop out rate, and have a lower IQ. Those are the facts. This doesn't mean that blacks are inferior to whites. Blacks are better than whites in other areas. One area would be sports and athleticism. On average, blacks are much more athletic than whites and much better at sports. I often wish that I had the athletic skills that blacks do. Every human being is equal, but it's obvious that on average, blacks have skills in certain areas and whites have skills in certain areas. It just so happens that the skills that whites have gives them an advantage in the work place.

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by HuntingtonBeachLefty (February 10, 2007 6:43 pm ET)
                       

                    The fact of the matter is that there are winners and losers in life.- RINO Hunter

                    Let me guess- if you have a lot of money, you're a winner, regardless of any advantages you had, right? 

                     The stats show that, on average, blacks don't do as well in school as whites, they have a much higher drop out rate, and have a lower IQ. Those are the facts.RINO Hunter

                    Wait a minute, you're just kidding, right? Or do you have these facts, from a source whose title isn't "Grand Wizard somebody"? 

                    This doesn't mean that blacks are inferior to whites. Blacks are better than whites in other areas. One area would be sports and athleticism. On average, blacks are much more athletic than whites and much better at sports. I often wish that I had the athletic skills that blacks do. Every human being is equal, but it's obvious that on average, blacks have skills in certain areas and whites have skills in certain areas. It just so happens that the skills that whites have gives them an advantage in the work place.

                     

                     

                    • - RINO Hunter

                    You almost had me there, Rino.You're a comedian, like Rush! Except you said these things in 2007, not 1970 or 1870.

                    We have a new "winner".

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by RINO Hunter (February 10, 2007 7:59 pm ET)
                         

                      http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=11280

                      Here you go. How are you supposed to get a high paying job if you drop out of school?

                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by RINO Hunter (February 10, 2007 10:30 pm ET)
                           

                        Are any of you going to respond to this? Or are you just going to keep on pretending that these facts don't exist?

                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by Brabantio (February 10, 2007 10:39 pm ET)
                             

                          What's it supposed to prove?  They're not hard-working enough to last though school, or what?

                          Report Abuse
                        • Author by solon (February 11, 2007 1:56 am ET)
                             

                          Its already been answered. Do you think there MIGHT be a reason more people drop out of inner city schools like Compton than say Simi valle high or Beverly Hills high? Or will your inherent bigotry continue to pretend the social pressures of poverty and racism dont exist?

                          Report Abuse
                      • Author by rms (February 12, 2007 11:04 am ET)
                           

                        Rino,

                         You are, of course, aware of the MIT/University of Chicago (I believe it was those two schools) experiment where they sent out pretty much identical resumes but with one half using "black" sounding names and the other half "white" sounding names, and the black names got only 50% of the callbacks as the whites did.  I would suggest that there is still some ways to go to level the playing field, and some sort of affirmative action seems a reasonable approach.

                        Report Abuse
                      • Author by aDifferent McCain (February 12, 2007 1:21 pm ET)
                           

                        Ah, hey Rhino, a question.

                        Could you find an actual source? You might want to check out the info you et and where it comes from.

                        http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Heartland_Institute

                        http://www.exxonsecrets.org/html/orgfactsheet.php?id=41

                        Maybe I would belive the info you provided if it didn't come from an industry mouthpiece. Asked anyone at Heartland about "Smoker's Rights" recently? 

                        Report Abuse
                  • Author by dave_chicago (February 10, 2007 7:02 pm ET)
                       

                    "I often wish that I had the athletic skills that blacks do."

                    Yes, I see. You only wish for the skills, but you don't wish to be black in order to have them. 

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by RINO Hunter (February 10, 2007 8:03 pm ET)
                         

                      Not really. I wouldn't mind being black. Wouldn't bother me at all.

                      Report Abuse
                  • Author by Brabantio (February 10, 2007 7:39 pm ET)
                       

                    "Not at all. That's like saying that if we had a fair economic system, everybody would earn the exact same income. The fact of the matter is that there are winners and losers in life."

                    It's not the same thing at all!  Jobs with more responsibility and higher requirements are always going to pay more, and that's perfectly fair.  That comment makes no sense unless you're a racist who believes that black people are not as smart as white people.

                    "The stats show that, on average, blacks don't do as well in school as whites, they have a much higher drop out rate, and have a lower IQ. Those are the facts."

                    ...Oh.  That answers that.  Those numbers wouldn't have to do with the quality of the schools, I guess?  Not possible?

                    "This doesn't mean that blacks are inferior to whites. Blacks are better than whites in other areas. One area would be sports and athleticism. On average, blacks are much more athletic than whites and much better at sports. I often wish that I had the athletic skills that blacks do."

                    OK, so the reason there's so much black poverty is that there just aren't enough professional basketball teams, or just too many black people.  Got it.   

                    "Every human being is equal, but it's obvious that on average, blacks have skills in certain areas and whites have skills in certain areas. It just so happens that the skills that whites have gives them an advantage in the work place."

                    Translation:"Every human being is equal, but white people are more equal-like intellectumentalically-wise then them black people".  It's fine to say that black people are stupid (the losers in life, by your own words), because you say they're more athletic than white people.  So it all balances out...somehow.

                    The aim of my question was to see if you were racist or not - it worked better than I imagined possible.

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by RINO Hunter (February 10, 2007 7:55 pm ET)
                         

                      "The aim of my question was to see if you were racist or not - it worked better than I imagined possible"

                      How can the truth be racist? I simply pointed out the facts.

                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by Brabantio (February 10, 2007 8:04 pm ET)
                           

                        You're attributing those results to the capacity of black people, so you think they're intellectually inferior.  All those measures can be affected by the quality of the education, obviously.  Poor schools with rougher environments are going to have more dropouts, worse grades, lower IQ results.  That's part of the whole cycle.  Do you really disagree with that?

                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by RINO Hunter (February 10, 2007 8:18 pm ET)
                             

                          Well if that is indeed the case, then why not let them get vouchers so that they can attend a good school? Just throwing more money into failed public schools isn't going to solve the problem. Also, don't you think that part of the problem is that blacks have always been taught that they are victims, and that society owes them? Don't you think that they should be taught that in order to be successful, you should work hard and finish school? People like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton only encourage laziness among blacks. They need to be taught that hard work pays off in the end. They need to learn that in order to become successful in life, you have to finish school. In life, you often times reap what you sow. You have to live with the consequences of your actions.

                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by Brabantio (February 10, 2007 8:41 pm ET)
                               

                            Let me get this straight.  You want to give every black student a voucher so that they can go to better schools, and this is a more practical solution than improving the poor schools and the basic educational infrastructure.  You're aware that quality of education is inversely proportional to class size, right?  Or are some of the students of that school going to trade places and go to the worse school?

                            Besides, you're admitting that poor education is a valid explanation.  "Failed schools"?  Why would they be failed?

                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by RINO Hunter (February 10, 2007 8:51 pm ET)
                                 

                              "and this is a more practical solution than improving the poor schools and the basic educational infrastructure"

                              We've already tried that. We've thrown tons of money into the public schools, and it hasn't helped at all. The federal government is now spending a record amount of money on education. Bush has spent far more on education than Clinton did when he was President. What the private schools have that the public schools don't is discipline. The private schools actually instill discipline and a hard work ethic into their schools, which is what is missing from the public schools. The public schools simply want to make the students feel good, when what they really need is someone to push them and make them better.

                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by Brabantio (February 10, 2007 8:59 pm ET)
                                   

                                "We've already tried that. We've thrown tons of money into the public schools, and it hasn't helped at all."

                                Why would we need to do that at all?  What is it supposed to help?  After all, black students aren't as smart and so they get the results that are appropriate, right?

                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by RINO Hunter (February 10, 2007 9:09 pm ET)
                                     

                                  You can make yourself smarter by studying and working hard. You're born with a certain amount of intelligence, but you can also become intelligent and knowledgeable by studying and working hard. We need to educate all of our students regardless of race. Everybody is capable of learning. I never said that black people are dumb. I simply said that the stats show that they aren't as successful in school as whites. That's the reason that they get behind and can't get as good of jobs.

                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by Brabantio (February 10, 2007 9:52 pm ET)
                                       

                                    "I never said that black people are dumb. I simply said that the stats show that they aren't as successful in school as whites. That's the reason that they get behind and can't get as good of jobs."

                                    Really?

                                    "The fact of the matter is that there are winners and losers in life. The stats show that, on average, blacks don't do as well in school as whites, they have a much higher drop out rate, and have a lower IQ."

                                    "Every human being is equal, but it's obvious that on average, blacks have skills in certain areas and whites have skills in certain areas. It just so happens that the skills that whites have gives them an advantage in the work place."

                                    "Skills", in this context, certainly implies mental capacity.  Or are you saying they can't learn?  If neither, what is it that makes them "losers" besides outside circumstances?

                                    Remember the context of all of this was the scenario of a world without racism, a level playing field.  You responded with "winners and losers" and "facts".  Your argument was clearly that even in a balanced society, white people would still get the better jobs.  Read it again.  And why?  Because of "victim mentality"?  There would be no such thing in a racism-free society, because there would be no cause for it.  So if black people are just as smart, and can learn just as well under the same circumstances, then what was your dispute with my original point again?

                                    Think carefully.

                                    Report Abuse
                                  • Author by jeter2 (February 10, 2007 10:08 pm ET)
                                       

                                    [Blacks] have a lower IQ.

                                     blacks have skills in certain areas and whites have skills in certain areas. It just so happens that the skills that whites have gives them an advantage in the work place.

                                    Blacks are better than whites in other areas. One area would be sports and athleticism.

                                    =====

                                    Holy crap  RINO Hunter do you really believe what you wrote? And you can't see how racist it is?You've just stereotyped an entire race.

                                    Man you need a Limbaugh break. Seriously go read a book or listen to someone who isn't spewing bigoted crap that you've obviously absorbed like a sponge.

                                    You give Republican/Conservatives a bad name...

                                    Report Abuse
                                    • Author by RINO Hunter (February 10, 2007 10:29 pm ET)
                                         

                                      Wrong. You give Republicans a bad name. You're not really a Republican at all. You're one of the RINO's that my user name refers to. You never advocate any conservative policies on this site. You simply agree with everything the far left liberals say. Change your political affiliation and quit embarassing the Republican Party.

                                      Also, I wasn't stereotyping anybody. I was talking about THE AVERAGE, which is documented by facts. The facts are not disputable. As I said earlier, I know blacks who are very intelligent and whites who are very dumb. But, THE AVERAGE, which is documented By STATISTICAL FACTS, show that blacks are more likely to drop out of school and do worse on tests. I simply state the facts. Don't blame the messenger.

                                      Report Abuse
                                      • Author by Brabantio (February 10, 2007 10:35 pm ET)
                                           

                                        Right, on average white people are smarter than black people.  We get what you're saying.  That's still stereotyping.

                                        Report Abuse
                                        • Author by RINO Hunter (February 10, 2007 10:44 pm ET)
                                             

                                          Fine. I'll rephrase what I said. Maybe smart isn't the correct word. Whites, ON AVERAGE, have more success in school, which translates into more success in the work place. I think that there's a laziness in the black community which comes from thinking that they are always the victims. They need to be taught to be self reliant, work hard in school, and graduate. If they do that, they will have the tools that they need to compete in the work place.

                                          Report Abuse
                                          • Author by Brabantio (February 10, 2007 10:50 pm ET)
                                               

                                            Fine, so now you're conceding my original point.  Without the "laziness" because of thinking they're "victims", then they would do just as well in school and in society.  They have the same "skills", now, according to you.

                                            You're admitting that your "fact" about "winners and losers" was a pile of undefendable nonsense.

                                            Report Abuse
                                          • Author by solon (February 11, 2007 2:08 am ET)
                                               

                                            So they arent dumb, they are lazy and need to be taught like children. No what it is, you are a flat out bigot

                                            Report Abuse
                                            • Author by RINO Hunter (February 11, 2007 11:34 am ET)
                                                 

                                              Let me ask you this. Was it racist when I said that blacks, ON AVERAGE, are more athletic than whites? Was I being racist against whites when I said that? Or do you actually agree with that comment?

                                              Report Abuse
                                              • Author by solon (February 11, 2007 12:16 pm ET)
                                                   

                                                Yes, you were being racist. You are repeating another race based stereotype. What is even the POINT of making such generalizations about a whole race? Why treat them like a herd of animals? Overall they isnt very smart but they sure runs fast. YEAH its racist.

                                                Report Abuse
                                                • Author by RINO Hunter (February 11, 2007 12:36 pm ET)
                                                     

                                                  It wasn't a generalization? I was merely stating statistical facts which CANNOT BE REFUTED! Try using reason and logic rather than emotion. The statistical facts show that blacks do better than whites in sports, but do worse in school and have lower IQ's. How can you still deny the facts? Don't you often criticize conservatives for denying the facts of global warming? Why are you denying the facts in this case? Also, what's wrong with being athletic? I'd love to be more athletic. I'd gladly trade places with Kobe Bryant any day. I would have absolutely no problem with being black. I'm not a racist. God created every human being equally. But he also gave us different gifts and talents in which to use in life. I know people who are less intelligent than I am, but they aren't inferior to me in any way. They simply have different gifts and talents than I have. Blacks, ON AVERAGE, simply have different gifts and talents than whites have. That doesn't make them inferior. We were all created equal, and we were all given specific talents to contribute to society.

                                                  Report Abuse
                                                  • Author by solon (February 11, 2007 2:27 pm ET)
                                                       

                                                    How many times do we have to deal with the same question? IQ scores are a test. Intelligence isnt one thing its a gestalt of several things. The Stanford-Benet test cant test it directly anmore than a blood test can. So they infer it from what they know about this and that. Could cultural differences make it more likely that someone growing up in say Simi Valley knows more about Doesteyevsky or Uriah Heep than someone who grew up with a different cultural imperative in say Compton? Also is it really that difficult for you to see that another part of that cultural imperative might make a black kid from Compton more likely to spend more time during his formative years and be more dedicated to his basketball game than the kid from Simi Valley? MIGHT they have different dreams and objectives strive in different directions based on things like whether there is any realy chance their parents could afford to send them to Stanford? That their FATHERS had different dreams and value different  parts of THEIR past? YOU keep saying we arent dealing with the facts when we have dealt with them all along and YOU having NO ANSWER just keep repeating the same thing over and over in hopes it will magically become true? What part of there could be other factors than genetics involved here do you seem inherently incapable of understanding? I was a good athelete as a kid and didnt find the black kids to be any more competative than any other race in my sport.

                                                    Your very first statement in this post was so astonishing I saved it for last you said you werent generalizing you were just citing statistics, that would be statistics about an entire race, which YOU claim cannot be denied, whether they can or not we have certainly shown reason to doubt the INFERRENCES YOU DRAW FROM THEM. However what I really want to know is on what planet would citing statistics about an entire race NOT BE CONSIDERED GENERALIZING? How in the world can your brain get behind as inane a concept as stating that on average blacks just arent as intelligent as white is not generalizing about blacks? That is an astonishing feat of self delusion 

                                                     

                                                    Report Abuse
                                        • Author by RINO Hunter (February 11, 2007 2:48 pm ET)
                                             

                                          Solon

                                          It's not a generalization if it's about the overall average and is backed up by statistical facts. A generalization would be saying that ALL black people are dumb and ALL white people are smart. I never said that. I was talking about the OVERALL AVERAGE which is backed up with evidence. A generalization is a baseless statement about a group of people without providing any facts to back it up. I provide facts that at least give my opinions credibility, even if you draw different conclusions from the stats. I still haven't seen you provide any stats about how blacks go to poorer schools and receive a worse education. You've just been making baseless statements.

                                           

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                                          • Author by Brabantio (February 11, 2007 3:09 pm ET)
                                               

                                            Generalize:

                                            1.to infer (a general principle, trend, etc.) from particular facts, statistics, or the like. 2.to infer or form (a general principle, opinion, conclusion, etc.) from only a few facts, examples, or the like.

                                            You don't have to be saying that ALL black people are dumber than ALL white people to be making a generalization.  That is quite literally one of the most ridiculous arguments I've ever heard.

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                                          • Author by solon (February 11, 2007 4:17 pm ET)
                                               

                                            http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/05/16/EDGBI6L0FU1.DTL

                                            There is much evidence that children desperately want to learn. In a comprehensive survey of student attitudes in 15 school districts nationally in 2002, the Minority Student Achievement Network, an educational advocacy group in Illinois, found that black and Latino students are as motivated, study as hard and are as serious about graduating as whites. Though racial segregation in schools has increased, many African American and Latino students in these schools have shown they can learn, master standard English and math and score high on performance tests if provided adequate resources and support. That's been shown to be the case in studies of the rising achievement scores of black or Latino students at a handful of selected, but still mostly segregated, schools in Los Angeles, Greensboro, N.C., Eugene, Ore., Philadelphia, Boston and on Long Island in New York.

                                            This goes to the heart of the argument as it says its RESOURCES not motivation or genetics that make it harder for minority students

                                            http://www.sj-r.com/sections/opinion/stories/106553.asp

                                            Because most blacks live in low-income communities, the state’s supposedly race-neutral tax policies combined with historic discriminatory practices to create a school-funding system that provides a worse-funded and lower-quality education to blacks than whites. 

                                             Baseless? I dont think so, its just I underestimated your zeal to deny the obvious. You DID know that statistically black people have a higher percentage living at or below poverty level, therefore in poorer neighborhoods? Did it escape your notice that a substantial amount of school funding comes from PROPERTY TAXES? Do you think MAYBE that is so that Simi Valley High and Beverly Hills high can be the way they are while Comton high was missing the R and M from their school encyclopedias when I was in high school? It has been talked about for decades that inner city schools are much worse than suburban schools. For my next trick I will produce statistics showing the sky is blue

                                             

                                             

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                                      • Author by solon (February 11, 2007 2:07 am ET)
                                           

                                        Oh no, if the Republican party wants to survive they need to rid themselves of bigotted idiots like YOU. Not principled  fairminded people like Jeter. YOU are a dinosaur. Look at the march of history, it has been moving inexorably toward more tolerance. Less bigotry, more comapssion, less brutality. 150 years ago there was slavery, 40 years ago Jim Crow, now even bigots feel the need to at least pretend they arent racists. These are the very trends people like YOU fight against but its a losing battle in the long run. In 50 more years people like you will be the punchline of jokes. Bush will be an American embarassment and history books will talk about the delusional people who continued to support him to the end as a sort of mass psychosis. You THINK you are indicitive of most people because you listen to rightwing screechmonkeys FAR from the mainstream of real debate. People like Savage, Limbaugh, Beck, Coulter, and Hannity. Well Hannity is a moron he probably believes the manure he shovels. The rest are playing a con game. They are tapping in to the raw nerve of those losers who always wished they were special, who resented the smart kids in class. Now they listen to people who have replaced those smart kids with a liberal boogeyman and insult us. So people losers like YOU can feel superior for a second or so vicariously and you shamelessly repeat all their garbage as IF it made sense, because you dont know any better. Now trust me on this the Limbaughs and Weiners of the world, they hate people like me but in their idle momenst smoking 500$ cigars drinking 100 year old cognac. They LAUGH at people like you that take their weak and packaged stupidity seriously. They have nothing but contempt for you. You are denigrating Jeter? You arent fit to lick his boots.

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                                        • Author by RINO Hunter (February 11, 2007 11:39 am ET)
                                             

                                          The fact that you are praising Jeter proves that he is indeed a RINO, and isn't conservative in the least. He merely sucks up to you and the rest of the liberals on here. Here's no more of a conservative than Ted Kennedy is. And if he's going to attack me, then I'm going to attack him. That's just the way it works. I simply pointed out statistical facts which cannot be refuted. You can try, but you can't argue with facts. The facts also show that Asians are more intelligent than whites. I believe that fact even though I am white. Am I being racist against my own race when I say that?

                                          Report Abuse
                                          • Author by solon (February 11, 2007 12:33 pm ET)
                                               

                                            I am not sure if your captivity to simplistic thinking comes from you not being very bright or from some preclivity you have to being brainwashed. YES its racist. How many Americans have won the Nobel Prize for science? More than any other country. Now China has a whole lot more people than the US so if asians are more intelligent than whites, how is that possible? You cite facts from that rightwing website and from a guy without what I consider the credentials or professional heft to make such bald claims and say I cant dispute them. The funny thing is we HAVE disputed them. You take a statistic about how much better different groups do in schools and turn that into who is more intelligent. That leap cannot be made as we have already pointed out, unless you can somehow take into consideration and adjust for things like the inequality of schools in different racial neighborhoods. The differences of the cultural imperatives of education. In my home we had a great library and I read a lot, my mother also expected me to go play with other kids and encouraged me to try sports. Had her cultural backround made her think sports and playing were frivolous I would have done NOTHING but read the Doestoyevsky, Plato and Shopenhauer in our home library, now I certainly wouldnt have excelled athletically as I did but I would have done even better in school than I did, heres the thing, it wouldnt have made me more intelligent, it would have given me a broader knowlege base to analyze from. I would have KNOWN more but my ability to do deductive, and inductive reasoning my ability to extrapolate would not have been greater, I would however have scored even higher on the kinds of tests they give in school. See it might not be racist to say Black people like Fords or cite a study that shows this but when you say Black people like Fords because watermelons fit better in the trunk THAT is racist and THAT is basically what you are doing. The data MAY show blacks do better in school but when you ignore the other factors that could contribute to that and say they just arent as intelligent as whites, THAT is racist

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                                            • Author by RINO Hunter (February 11, 2007 12:41 pm ET)
                                                 

                                              Wow! That was a long post. You must be tired of typing. This is starting to get way too skinny anyway. We should probably stop posting on that section. It's getting pretty hard to read.

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                                          • Author by solon (February 11, 2007 12:39 pm ET)
                                               

                                            Oh and me praising Jeter doesnt prove he is not a conservative, more of your throwaway simplistic attempts at logic. I sometimes praise Bruce and tommy and Ben when applicable that is just here. I have praised former Senator Danforth, and Orrin Hatch before. I dont agree with them politically but I respect them. Does that mean THEY arent conservative? The only thing it proves is I respect Jeters fairmindedness and the fact he makes his own points instead of reheating long whipped to the point of death or at least inertness talking points made the the chattering class of flying screechmonkeys that are the rightwing noise machine, Imagine that instead of repeating like a mantra what he heard from Wiener or Hannity he actually THINKS about an issue and gives HIS take from HIS perspective

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                                            • Author by RINO Hunter (February 11, 2007 2:52 pm ET)
                                                 

                                              "Imagine that instead of repeating like a mantra what he heard from Wiener or Hannity" Hmmm. I don't ever remember Savage or Hannity talking about the types of issues we've been talking about. I have formed all of my opinions by looking at scientific evidence, not by listening to conservative talk show hosts.

                                              Report Abuse
                                              • Author by solon (February 11, 2007 6:11 pm ET)
                                                   

                                                Well congratulations are due, you have come to remarkably similar conclusions. That however does not mean you guys are right

                                                Report Abuse
                                            • Author by jeter2 (February 11, 2007 8:33 pm ET)
                                                 

                                              Hey Solon,

                                              Sometimes I think racism is almost subconscious...and those like RINO are clueless to their own bigotry and truly believe they are "colorblind". They believe that by exalting African-Americans as better athletes than Caucasians, that somehow cancels out any racism on their part when they suggest that Blacks lack the intelligence of Whites...they think by saying each race excels at something that they are being magnanimous and fair.

                                              Both you & brabantio have made an excellent attempt at explaining to RINO just why his line of thinking is faulty & racist. I admire both your patience & tenacity.

                                              And Solon, thank you for your kind words. Of course RINO will suggest my thanking you is just me "sucking up" ;-) Lord knows I've never argued or debated with either you or brabantio [joking here RINO]

                                              RINO, if you read this post, let me just say to YOU that I've learned to listen to BOTH sides. I'm still very much a traditionalist on many issues, BUT I've allowed common sense to guide me & formulate my opinions rather than ideology.

                                              Try it sometime.

                                              Report Abuse
                                          • Author by prof (February 11, 2007 7:11 pm ET)
                                               

                                            Ah, the model minority argument.  I was wondering when this myth would be trotted out.  Asian Americans are no more inherently intelligent than Black Americans are inherently athletic.  (Did it ever occur to you that many Blacks have excelled in sports because it provides one plausible way--in addition to popular music--out of abject poverty?)  Most of the statistics showing general intellectual or athletic abilities reflect the economic and social health of a particular community.  The Asia model minority argument is spurious, at best, because it does not reflect the social problems of many immigrant and patriated Asian ethnic communities (like the Hmong, for example).  What these statistic don't tell you are the following: how slavery shatters core cultural institutions (like the family) of a people, how that disrupts a person's identity and sense of self, how generations of disenfranchisement (even following the end of slavery) undermines the stability of community, how poverty and alienation instill despair and hopelessness among youngsters, how drastically underfunded public schools torpedo any chances for many young people to be pull themselves out of poverty, how malnourishment (and/or poor diet) damages a child's school performance.

                                            Ironically, Black Americans continue to vex bigots because, despite the systemic racism they faced for centuries, they nevertheless contributed to making America the unique and great nation it is (or was, before Bush and company).  Many have done exceedinly well even under dire past and present circumstances--becoming incredible athletes, award winning writers and intellectuals, renowned surgeons, Nobel prize laureates, world famous musicians and composers, outstanding poets and wordsmiths, and greate statesmen and stateswomen.  

                                            Bet, then again, feel free to draw the your own racist conclusions from statistics.  It's a free country.  ...I think.  (At least it use to be, before the Replubik Party began to dismantle our Constitution.)

                                            Report Abuse
                                            • Author by RINO Hunter (February 11, 2007 7:30 pm ET)
                                                 

                                              Do you seriously think that white people are just as athletic as blacks? Seriously? When's the last time that you've seen a white guy who can jump like Kobe Bryant? You're really in a state of denial if you can't realize that blacks are more athletic than whites. Athleticism is something that blacks are blessed with. I'm talking about THE AVERAGE, once again, to be clear. And what's wrong with being athletic? Wouldn't you love to be in the NBA or NFL? I love watching players like Kobe Bryant and Dwayne Wade play basketball. They are great players who have made the game fun to watch. They've been given talent by God, and they have used that talent to the fullest. They are equal with everybody else, black and white, but God has blessed them with amazing athletic talent. Being athletic IS NOT A BAD THING! IT'S A GOOD THING! Why can't you realize that? 

                                              Report Abuse
                                              • Author by prof (February 12, 2007 4:55 am ET)
                                                   

                                                Congratulations.  You've proven that you're not only an idiot but also a true bigot.  This site is about right wing lies and misinformation.  Your defense of the worst of the right wing pundits is indefensible and you've done nothing to advance a reasoned debate.  Go away.

                                                Report Abuse
                                          • Author by aDifferent McCain (February 12, 2007 1:36 pm ET)
                                               

                                            Hey, idiot. Spot saying "I'm just pointing out "statistical facts""

                                            NO YOU ARE NOT!

                                            The info you provided was tainted.

                                            Report Abuse
                                      • Author by worrierking (February 12, 2007 9:20 am ET)
                                           

                                        Thank you RINO Hunter.

                                        You've set me straight. I was of the opinion that the Republican party was becoming a "big tent" party. You know, one of those "all inclusive parties". That's what we've been told by everyone in the RNC for the last 6 years.

                                        Now you're telling us that this is not true. In order for someone to be a Republican, they must march lockstep with the Neo-Conservative wing of the party. That's fine with me. I'm not a Republican. Since entry into the party requires total fealty to your rigid belief system, I doubt that your party will survive. Good luck anyway.

                                        Also, you're talking a lot about "STATISTICAL FACTS" and averages, etc. Since you agree with those  "STATISTICAL FACTS", can we look forward to your support in the fight against global warming? After all the percentage of climatologists who believe that we are responsible for the warming of our climate is quite high.

                                        And since you the majority of the citizens of this country want us out of Iraq, can we count on you to come to the next anti-war demonstration?

                                        And since most scientists are in agreement about evolution and the origin of species, I guess you're in favor of stopping the attempt to teach "Intelligent Design" in our schools. I'm glad to hear that.

                                        Welcome to our side! 

                                        Report Abuse
                                      • Author by aDifferent McCain (February 12, 2007 1:32 pm ET)
                                           

                                        Wow, your insane right?

                                        Jetter is not a liberal, (sorry jetter2 but you don't get into the clubhouse or learn the secret handshake.) I don't know if you read or not, but Jetter hardly ever agrees with the thread at all, only on certain issues were he shares the same viewpoint as someone else.

                                        BTW: still waiting for you to show us these "facts." And please unlike last time, not data gathered from a right wing (company paid) foundation.

                                         

                                        Report Abuse
                                    • Author by RINO Hunter (February 10, 2007 10:37 pm ET)
                                         

                                      Also, can you and the other liberals at least try to refute what I say with facts and statistics rather than merely attacking me personally? I back up what I say with facts that aren't disputable. You're basically saying that factual statistics are racist.

                                      Report Abuse
                                      • Author by solon (February 11, 2007 2:12 am ET)
                                           

                                        No that wasnt the argument, try to read with some comprehension. What is being said is the very inequality we are talking about is a contributing factor IN those statistics. DUH.

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                                    • Author by HuntingtonBeachLefty (February 11, 2007 6:01 pm ET)
                                         

                                      Don't worry Jeter, you're safe.

                                      I'm pretty sure most people on this site, Conservative or liberal, aren't letting RH influence their opinion of you.You've demonstrated your ability to think enough, and most posters here can think enough, to put RH in a class by itself.

                                      Now I've got to go back to see how deep that hole is getting.

                                      Report Abuse
                                      • Author by RINO Hunter (February 11, 2007 7:39 pm ET)
                                           

                                        Actually, I simply don't like people who won't admit who they are. I have at least a little respect for you and the other liberals on here, because you admit who you are. I can't say the same about Jeter. He claims to be a conservative Republican, and then he turns around and bashes all the most prominent conservatives. He's a moderate at best, and also a suck up to Media Matters. At least you, Solon, and all the others are honest with who you are. I respect that.

                                        Report Abuse
                                        • Author by jeter2 (February 12, 2007 7:50 am ET)
                                             

                                          "He claims to be a conservative Republican, and then he turns around and bashes all the most prominent conservatives. He's a moderate at best, and also a suck up to Media Matters."...By RINO Hunter

                                          =====

                                          Well RINO old buddy old pal I am a MODERATE Conservative/Republican...and have written that very FACT here REPEATEDLY for 2 years. Obviously you missed it.

                                          Which "prominent" Conservatives have I bashed--that didn't deserve bashing? Bush & Cheney? Mmmmm let's see they lie us into an UN-necessary War, destroy any goodwill we had around the globe, are fiscally irresponsible, and I should what? Get out some pom-poms and cheer them on? Why? Because the Hannity's, Limbaugh's, Coulter's, O'Reilly's etc [who YOU probably consider "prominent Conservatives"] tell me to? Here's a clue....they do NOT speak for ALL Conservative/Republicans. Only the weak-minded follow them like sheep and repeat their regurgitated White House talking points.

                                          That would be YOU.

                                          You keep referring to me as a "suck-up". First you write I suck-up to the Liberals here, then I suck-up to MMFA. Now I could give you multiple examples of heated debates I've had here with Liberals. And of the many times I've questioned MMFA's wisdom on posting a particular thread. But I can also say I've had reasonable, honest & even friendly debates/discussions here with Liberal posters I respect. And I've often praised MMFA for calling out overt MIS-information & bias...IF that makes me a "suck-up" in your opinion, well...no biggie. My opinion of you isn't much better.

                                          You are a blind-eyed partisan. I am not. You apparently can only REPEAT what the Far-Right neocons drill into your brain. I can think for myself.

                                          That obviously scares people like YOU.

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                              • Author by solon (February 10, 2007 9:29 pm ET)
                                   

                                Bush spent more because he mandated expensive programs like testing, and didnt pay for it and because there are more students now. Vouchers would serve only ONE purpose. To further stratify schools. By taking money OUT of public schools. By allowing schools to take the students they want so they dont have to put money into things like educating dyslexics or other special needs people who you dont care about anyway. It will leave all the problems in the public schools further excaberating the problems. Then you can test and say hey private schools are not only better but cheaper. When that isnt true since they dont have to spend the monies public schools are mandated to spend in order to educate EVERYBODY. So the best private schools for the wealthy will be subsidesed by our tax dollars and it will be the end of public education and everyone will get the conservative dream the education you can AFFORD. So the rich kids will never again have to compete with the smart middle class kids for the really good jobs since they will have virtuall no chance for a really good education. Conservatives never want to spend a dime that doesnt filter through a rich mans pocket and are always looking for a reason to claim their selfishness and lack of empathy are REALLY what is best for everyone.

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                              • Author by redking75687 (February 11, 2007 12:05 am ET)
                                   

                                The biggest private school system in the US is run by the Catholic Church....and it teaches EXACTLY the same cirriculum as the public schools, with a divinity class thrown in to teach superstition and obedience to a failed philosophy. How is that better than public schools?

                                Report Abuse
                      • Author by solon (February 10, 2007 9:22 pm ET)
                           

                        Your simplistic bigotted take does not become the truth because you SAY its the truth. Your racism is self evident. like the sky is blue.

                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by RINO Hunter (February 10, 2007 10:33 pm ET)
                             

                          Once again, how can you possibly dispute facts that I have documented? How can you argue with the truth?

                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by Brabantio (February 10, 2007 10:55 pm ET)
                               

                            I've read that rapes occur more as ice cream sales increase.  So it's obvious that ice cream consumption causes rape, right?

                            The issue isn't whether your facts are true or not, it's what you attributed to the fact.  They don't prove what you said they did.

                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by RINO Hunter (February 10, 2007 10:57 pm ET)
                                 

                              Here's another one. Are you going to argue with this study as well?

                              http://ssc.uwo.ca/psychology/faculty/rushtonpdfs/RandRProgressIntell2003.pdf

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                              • Author by Brabantio (February 10, 2007 11:30 pm ET)
                                   

                                I just might.  I found more of his work here.

                                Is this guy taken seriously in the academic community, or just on sites like VDare.com?

                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by RINO Hunter (February 10, 2007 11:40 pm ET)
                                     

                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Philippe_Rushton

                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by Brabantio (February 10, 2007 11:59 pm ET)
                                       

                                    Yes, I saw that.  First off, it's wikipedia, and I noticed the neutrality of at least one link was disputed.  Second, I'm not seeing the evidence of respect in his community here.  It did, however, mention the Pioneer Fund, which is run by Rushton and sponsors Jared Taylor.

                                    Another academic racist, Jared Taylor of American Renaissance magazine, released in September a new version of The Color of Crime, a booklet that claims blacks are especially prone to criminality. The booklet was cited in a conservative Cornell University student publication, The Cornell American, where columnist Chris Menzel used it to warn fellow students about "gangs of black thugs." It was also quoted by blogger Nicholas Stix to justify segregated neighborhoods.

                                    Another Taylor essay -- a column on Hurricane Katrina that concluded that "when blacks are left entirely to their own devices ... civilization disappears" -- was the subject of a major panel discussion at FrontPageMagazine.com. The site is run by right-wing ideologue David Horowitz, who criticized Taylor's racism but said he had had the "courage or integrity" to examine black criminal behavior. Several of those on the panel criticized Front Page for taking Taylor's work seriously.

                                    Other similar "scientists" haven't fared as well as Rushton and Taylor. Britons Paul Ewing and Richard Lynn -- Lynn, like Rushton, is a Pioneer Fund beneficiary -- scored a coup when they got an article arguing that men are smarter than women into the British Journal of Psychology. But a respected academic journal, Nature, heard about the forthcoming study, and on the day it was released Nature published a full-scale rebuttal saying the study was "deeply flawed" and "utter hogwash."

                                    Of course, you can (and will) dismiss the SLPC out of hand, but not as easily as I can dismiss a site like Wikipedia that you can alter yourself.  The bottom line is we're talking about a man who sponsors the work of someone that even David Horowitz calls a racist.  My God.<!-- 1<br> 1<br> 1<br> --><!-- intel report issue information: Issue 120 -->

                                    Report Abuse
                                    • Author by Brabantio (February 11, 2007 12:00 am ET)
                                         

                                      I have no idea what that text is at the end.  I meant to say "SPLC", of course.

                                      Report Abuse
                                    • Author by RINO Hunter (February 11, 2007 12:58 am ET)
                                         

                                      One other thing. I'm going to quit beating around the bush here. I do think that, ON AVERAGE, whites are smarter than blacks. I also believe that, ON AVERAGE, East Asians are smarter than whites. Does this mean that I'm racist against my own race as well?

                                      Report Abuse
                                      • Author by Brabantio (February 11, 2007 2:13 am ET)
                                           

                                        One other thing.

                                        You say that as if it was following a substantive response.  Where is it?

                                        I'm going to quit beating around the bush here. I do think that, ON AVERAGE, whites are smarter than blacks.

                                        Yes, we realized that was your opinion a while ago, in case you didn't notice.

                                        I also believe that, ON AVERAGE, East Asians are smarter than whites. Does this mean that I'm racist against my own race as well?

                                        It sounds like it, it's not an impossible concept.  If you ever decide to so a little introspection perhaps you'll figure that out for yourself.

                                        You have answered my original question, though, "how is that a wrong?"  You obviously feel that trying to create a balanced society would be wrong because the very concept is impossible.  After all, black people are just not as smart, ON AVERAGE, and will always be in a lower class than white people because of it.  And they're lazy because they wrongly see themselves as victims, ON AVERAGE.

                                        But you believe in a color-blind society.  So if you ran your own business you would suddenly forget that you believed black people are 15 IQ points less intelligent ON AVERAGE every time a black applicant walked through your door.  And you wouldn't think that he would be likely to be a lazy whiner who had a victim complex.  You wouldn't take any of that into account at all when hiring people, even on a subconscious level.

                                        Does that about sum it up?

                                        Report Abuse
                                        • Author by RINO Hunter (February 11, 2007 11:46 am ET)
                                             

                                          I would hire THE PERSON who I felt would do the best job, regardless of color. I would hire the person who could make me the most money. That's how employers are. All they care about is money. Why would they refuse to hire an intelligent black person if he or she could make them a lot of money? Like I said earlier, there are a lot of intelligent black people in this country. The stats just show that they don't have as high of IQ as whites, and they have a higher drop out rate. That's indisputable. I wouldn't have any problem hiring ANY PERSON who has graduated from high school, obtained a college degree, and wants to work hard.  

                                          Report Abuse
                                          • Author by Brabantio (February 11, 2007 12:17 pm ET)
                                               

                                            But if it's about making the most money, then on average you're not going to hire very many black people because you know that they're not as bright ON AVERAGE and have a lazy, victimized attitude.  You'll hire the exception, sure, the one who is a "credit to his race", because that there one is smart.

                                            The point is that your beliefs handicap a pretty significant portion of the population based on skin color.  It's just not believable that your attitude would have absolutely no bearing on your personal behavior.  How you could be less consistent with the "color-blind" society you claim to want is hard to imagine.  If you were really "color-blind", then the sort of things you admit you believe would not even be allowed into your head.  It's not something you would accept on any level, because it naturally affects your behavior, and that's something everyone understands.

                                            Report Abuse
                                            • Author by RINO Hunter (February 11, 2007 12:50 pm ET)
                                                 

                                              "If you were really "color-blind", then the sort of things you admit you believe would not even be allowed into your head"

                                              I simply believe factual statistics that I read. I'm sorry I'm such a big fan of facts. IQ tests measure intelligence, not knowledge. It's not something that you can study for endlessly. You can be terrible in school and have a great IQ. Children as young as four years old are given IQ tests, and they haven't had any education. I wish that things were different. But I can't change the way things are.

                                              Report Abuse
                                              • Author by Brabantio (February 11, 2007 12:57 pm ET)
                                                   

                                                Whether your facts are true or valid or not (and you had to pull a very suspect source out to back it up, remember), it's still wildly inconsistent with your "color-blind" society speech.  You just can't get around that.

                                                Report Abuse
                                                • Author by RINO Hunter (February 11, 2007 1:26 pm ET)
                                                     

                                                  The IQ test results are found in other places as well. The area that was controversial was his linking head size to IQ. But the IQ scores were 100% accurate. Also, my point throughout all of this was simply to answer your question of why whites have more success in the market place than blacks. I pointed out statistical facts which show that blacks drop out of school at a high rate and have lower IQ scores. I didn't just make those stats up. My point about "color blindness" is that employers shouldn't discriminate on the basis of race. If I was an employer I would hire anybody who had graduated from high school, obtained a college degree, and wanted to work hard. It just so happens that a large number of blacks don't graduate from high school. Why would I want to hire somebody who hasn't graduated from high school? Do you really think that they would be an efficient worker?

                                                  Report Abuse
                                                  • Author by Brabantio (February 11, 2007 1:43 pm ET)
                                                       

                                                    We've been over this.  You are attributing causes for the results that may have other causes.  The dropout rate does not prove anything about intelligence, period.  For example, you can expect the dropout rate to be higher in any poor community because kids have to make up for financial shortcomings more often.  How obvious can that be?  That would actually show that a high-school dropout could be more diligent and responsible than someone who graduated from college.  The problem isn't the "facts", it's the assumptions you're making from them.

                                                    And you can claim over and over that you'd just hire the best PERSON for the job, but your mindset defines who the best people are, whether you want to face it or not.  You just can't make the argument that black people are dumber than white people and are lazy because they think they're victims, and then claim that has no bearing on your view of them.  No matter how many times you say ON AVERAGE and PERSON as if that makes you more reasonable, it's just impossible to believe.

                                                    Report Abuse
                                      • Author by solon (February 11, 2007 2:18 am ET)
                                           

                                        Yes you are a racist, you just arent very bright. Ever hear the old saying if you want to roast an Irishman you can always find another Irishman to turn the spit? They were talking about people like you. Every few years the rightwing tries another bit of racists nonsense dressed up as a study about how white people are just smarter than white people. Remember the Bell Curve? They used to get blown out of the water by REAL academics. I think they have just stopped even giving them the notice as if they were real studies so show us all the fringe site racism you want. Without quantifying for variables like different culture and different schooling its just an excesice in bigotry.

                                        Report Abuse
                                        • Author by RINO Hunter (February 11, 2007 11:51 am ET)
                                             

                                          "you just arent very bright"

                                          Considering that I had a 3.8 GPA in college, I would say that I'm at least somewhat intelligent. I imagine that you probably work a minimum wage job considering the amount of time you have to post here. Maybe you should quit complaining about society and government and better yourself.

                                          Report Abuse
                                          • Author by solon (February 11, 2007 12:52 pm ET)
                                               

                                            See thats the problem. One of my friends became a doctor. Was he smarter than me? He certainly wouldnt say he was but he WORKED at it. He dedicated himself. You take a fact. A and B, then interpret the works of Shakespear from them. Making the kind of assumptions someone who WAS bright would know better than to make. I have a very good job. I will make about 90,000 this year like last year. It also gives me a lot of time off. I CHOSE to be a working person because  of my political beliefs, and did what BRIGHT people do, found a job that fit my abilities and gave me what I wanted. Are you assuming that making more money is bettering myself. A dummy might make that assumption to. I contribute to society that is bettering myself. I do so in an occupation that allows me to do other things that also contribute to society. I make plenty enough money for what I want out of life. Perhaps YOU should better YOURSELF by looking beyond the selfish attitude that you continually show here, and ask yourself how you can make this a better world, with YOUR contribution to society.

                                            Report Abuse
                                            • Author by RINO Hunter (February 11, 2007 1:19 pm ET)
                                                 

                                               "I will make about 90,000 this year like last year"

                                              Ok. I apologize. That is a pretty good sum of money. You have been pretty successful. But don't you realize that liberal politicians want to take your money and give it to those who haven't worked as hard as you? Why are you voting against your own economic interests?

                                              Report Abuse
                                              • Author by solon (February 11, 2007 2:44 pm ET)
                                                   

                                                Again you assume your biased and simplistic take on an issue somehow represents reality. You seem to have learned everything you need to know about society by having Ebeneezer Scrooge as your roll model. Did Bush work hard for his success or did he do poorly in school and bankrupt every bussiness he ever ran? Meanwhile I had a friend in High School. He didnt go to college but into a technology training school. He learned the electronics hardware trade and was doing great with a small company, making good money he was their most sought after diagnostician and fixer. Then he got a strange nuerological disease that ate up his nerves bit by bit for about two and a half years, a lifetime in the technology business he was in intense pain and could hardly get out of bed. After he got better it took another six months of physical rehabilitation before he could walk more than a few steps. His job was gone. He had no way to make a living while he was sick nor after he got better as the technology changed and because of the heavy drugs he was on and the intense pain he could not focus enough to read and understand the new developments. He had to start all over at 29. Should he be helped or let starve since he wasnt working hard enough? Did he fail at 29 when he had to take a minimum wage job because he didnt work hard enough. Was it because of his personal responsibility issues? YOU make assumptions, YOU generalize about people to fit your biases. Now I know that my friend doesnt represent all those taking federal money do YOU know that your description ALSO doesnt fit everyone that needs help? Since both kinds exist tell me which is more important that we feed the hungry and sometimes allow someone a free lunch or that we let everyone GO hungry just to make sure no one GETS a free lunch. Look if you can come up with an idea on how to seperate those taking advantage from those how are in real need lets hear it. I am all for it. I am not trying to give a free pass for lazyness but I KNOW people who have been hurting. And when they are hurting, when they are down and beaten that isnt time for pious scolding and tough love its time to give them a hand up and help back on the road to dignity and self reliance. This is a GOOD concept. YOUR take is an EXCUSE not to help those who really need it.

                                                Report Abuse
                                                • Author by RINO Hunter (February 11, 2007 3:00 pm ET)
                                                     

                                                  I believe that the government should take care of those who aren't capable of helping themselves. If you have a physical or mental handicapp, then it is the government's job to take care of you. The government should've taken care of your friend. I simply have a problem with those who abuse the system. There are many people who are poor because of laziness, apathy, or substance abuse. One way that we could seperate it out is by drug testing those who get a government hand out. If they fail the drug test, then they shouldn't get the hand out. That might possibly work.

                                                  Report Abuse
                                                  • Author by roundhouse (February 11, 2007 3:23 pm ET)
                                                       

                                                    That could be a good start.

                                                    I could support it if rehab and job training was offered at no expense to the afflicted person. Also, if that is the path we want to follow in order to diiferentiate it from profiling, drug testing would need to be administered to ALL. From the president all the way down to city cousel. From CEO all the way to janitor. Otherwise only specific segments of the population would be targeted for harassment.

                                                    Report Abuse
                                                  • Author by solon (February 11, 2007 6:25 pm ET)
                                                       

                                                    It isnt even THAT simple. What about the guy who graduated high school and immediatly went to work at the major industry in his town, say a battery factory, he worked hard in his specialized job and prospered until the day the corporation moved his factory to Indonesia, he is laid off not qualified for other work and is nearing 40 not the optimal age to being over. He will be able to get another job and but until that happens what do we do let his family go hungry? The main employer in the region is gone so there are hundreds in his shoes. You say we SHOULD take care of those who need it fine, yet you described the program we use to do so as the government taking away my money and giving it to what amounts to lazy slackers. IF you agree with the obligation to care for those in need we are on the same page, I am all for seperating those who are taking advantage, as long as we maintain the obligation to care for the needy. You certainly seemed to be denigraing the concept and implying that only lazy good for nothings need help. If we start with the obligation to care for the needy we can end up with a worthwhile program. I would suggest a jobs program, training for GOOD jobs with a wage that can support a family and if you quit that job you become ineligible for assistance however its the same people who hate assistance who also oppose jobs programs.

                                                    Report Abuse
                                              • Author by HuntingtonBeachLefty (February 11, 2007 6:17 pm ET)
                                                   

                                                Ok. I apologize. That is a pretty good sum of money. You have been pretty successful. - RINO Hunter

                                                "successful" is my favorite Republo-buzzword. Funny how RH didn't acknowledge anyone's success at destroying its arguments, but a good salary got some respect.Just as I posted very early in the thread, and completely ignoring Solon's measure of success, of which the money was incidental,"success" is purely about the money to conservatives.

                                                Report Abuse
                                          • Author by redking75687 (February 11, 2007 2:10 pm ET)
                                               

                                            What does income have to do with intelligence? The guy in MENSA with the highest IQ works as a bouncer in a bar! I work for a company where the people in charge make mistake after mistake and earn twenty or fourty times as much as me and I have to fix all the problems they cause with customers for poverty wages. Income is not a sign of intelligence....in fact, it seems the higher the income, the better people are at conning others that they're smart, George Bush being a poster boy for that premise. I've held deep conversations on quantum mechanics with factory workers and had to explain evolution to people who make over $100k a year. Money is no sign of intelligence.

                                            Report Abuse
                                      • Author by prof (February 11, 2007 7:22 pm ET)
                                           

                                        I think it just means you're an idiot and don't know that statistics are simply that: statistics.  YOU are inputing simplistic racist conclusions.  You cannot seem to apprehend the fact that such statistics are telling us something more about complex social issues, like: the quality of schools, children's diet, the terrible affects of abject poverty, the destruction of family and community resulting from systemic racism.  Either get educated or shut up!

                                        Report Abuse
                                        • Author by RINO Hunter (February 11, 2007 7:33 pm ET)
                                             

                                          Hmmm. I'm pretty sure I was educated. I had a 3.8 GPA in college. I think that that's pretty good. What was your GPA?

                                          Report Abuse
                                          • Author by Brabantio (February 11, 2007 8:04 pm ET)
                                               

                                            One has to wonder what courses you took when you don't know what the word "generalize" means and it has to be explained to you that black people really don't have as much money as white people.  And your reasoning abilities are atrocious ("are you saying all black people are poor?"!).  You may be the prime example of someone who memorized his way through his studies but never developed the ability to actually think.

                                            Report Abuse
                                          • Author by prof (February 12, 2007 5:24 am ET)
                                               

                                            LOL, Mr. Rino.  I'm a academic.  You may indeed have graduated with a 3.8 GPA (even though your spurious arguments make me wonder) but you sorely lack critical thinking.  For example, much of the reasoning you use regarding so-called "average" abilities of different races was debunked long ago by serious scholars (see my earlier postings about the real causes of poor school performance).  Nevertheless, spurious interpretations of various statistics (some of questionable value) are still trotted out by racists on the Internet.  You might try using the library instead of the Internet to learn about the real implications of various population studies by serious sociologists and political scientists.  Any idiot can publish on the Internet since it isn't peer reviewed.  Students studying at my institution are taught not to trust anything on the Internet.  Indeed, they are required to verify whatever they quote or paraphrase from the Internet, using peer reviewed scholarship.  The fact that you do not do this tells me a great deal about your education and intellectual skills, far more than your claims to be a smart person.  

                                            Report Abuse
                                          • Author by aDifferent McCain (February 12, 2007 2:33 pm ET)
                                               

                                            4.0, so what?

                                            Report Abuse
                                    • Author by aDifferent McCain (February 12, 2007 2:30 pm ET)
                                         

                                      Also brabantio

                                      This Rushton guy, keeps poping up in debates regarding the increasing Nazi/KKK involvement in college campuses. See Southern Poverty Law Center.

                                      Report Abuse
                                      • Author by Brabantio (February 12, 2007 3:25 pm ET)
                                           

                                        I'll take a look at that, just finding his sponsorship of that other racist was enough to show he was working from a racist slant.

                                        The "Pioneer Fund".  Oy.

                                        Report Abuse
                                • Author by RINO Hunter (February 11, 2007 2:37 pm ET)
                                     

                                  Brabantio

                                  I'll write this here since it kept getting so skinny. You seem to be making generalizations as well. You seem to be saying that all blacks live in poor areas and all whites live in rich areas. Isn't that a generalization? Aren't you basically saying that blacks are poor and whites are rich? And you're also doing it without providing any facts to back up your claim. At least I provide facts to back up my claims.

                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by Brabantio (February 11, 2007 3:05 pm ET)
                                       

                                    No, I'm not saying that ALL black people live in poor areas.  You're talking about ON AVERAGE, and the disproportionate number of black poor people is what accounts for those averages.  That's just simple-mindedness on your part.

                                    I can't believe you're serious now.  I thought you were confused, but now I'm pretty sure you're just full of it.  After all of this, you're going to challenge the understructure of the entire conversation?  Why didn't you just object to affirmative action with "it's not needed because there is no discrepancy"?

                                    But in case you're serious, here you go.  From 2003 and 2004, both pages, a little basic math.

                                    In 2003, among people who reported a single race, the poverty rate for non-Hispanic whites was 8.2 percent...People who reported black as their only race, for example, had a poverty rate of 24.4 percent in 2003.

                                    That's just a hair short of three times the poverty rate of white people.  That should satisfy your need for "facts" on this matter, unless you believe we've undergone a major cultural revolution in the last few years that nobody noticed.

                                    Report Abuse
                                    • Author by RINO Hunter (February 11, 2007 4:01 pm ET)
                                         

                                      "People who reported black as their only race, for example, had a poverty rate of 24.4 percent in 2003"

                                      So do you believe that that is entirely the government's fault? Do you believe that the high poverty rate among blacks is due to racism and the federal government not doing enough about it? Do you think that at least SOME of the responsibility should lie with blacks themselves? Or is everything society's fault?

                                      Report Abuse
                                      • Author by Brabantio (February 11, 2007 4:26 pm ET)
                                           

                                        It's because of past racism and the racism that's inherent in the current system.  If the schools and economic conditions are generally worse, getting a good education is an uphill battle.  Also, it's hard to expect black people to get a fair shake when people believe that they're generally not as smart as white people and lazy to boot.

                                        Possibly discouragement from the imbalance could be part of the vicious cycle, but I think it's more effect than cause.  I have a hard time putting myself in their shoes and not imagining being a little upset over it.  I also think that working hard and graduating are common messages in the black community, but so what?  "Don't do drugs" is a common message in all communities and you have to expect a certain amount of people aren't going to follow it.

                                        What I don't believe is that racial equality is a lost cause because black people are generally lazy whiners and intellectually inferior.  I have more hope for our society and more faith in black people than that, as all civilized and reasonable people should.

                                        Report Abuse
                                  • Author by solon (February 11, 2007 6:28 pm ET)
                                       

                                    No it isnt generalizing. YOU gave statistics showing lower test scores per race, on average. You then assumed that it was a genetic thing. He pointed out that because of ANOTHER statistic there could be ANOTHER rationale. That isnt the same thing.

                                    Report Abuse
                              • Author by aDifferent McCain (February 12, 2007 2:00 pm ET)
                                   

                                Okay Rhino, you asked for it, the study you quoted is BS

                                http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=14522791

                                http://talk.ocregister.com/showpost.php?p=459307&postcount=289

                                There are many, many more...this study is generally racist in tone and has been laughed at by most major researchers. (Notice the study you included uses 32 muscular markers (I believe). one of these being the jaw bone. As far as I know from anamony and physiology (and admittedly its been a few years ago), the jaw bone has nothing to do with the size of one's cranium. 

                                Report Abuse
      • Author by dave_chicago (February 10, 2007 2:23 pm ET)
           

        "Conservatives like Limbaugh and myself simply want a color blind society in which people are judged according to the content of their character and not the color of their skin."

        Really? Last time I checked, the Republican party was pretty much lily-white. Can't find any non-white party members who have the "character" you desire??

        Report Abuse
        • Author by RINO Hunter (February 10, 2007 2:57 pm ET)
             

          I never really noticed. I don't look at people as being black or white. I look at people as being people. God created us all equally. No race is any better than any other race. I'm pretty much blind to color.

          Report Abuse
          • Author by dave_chicago (February 10, 2007 3:16 pm ET)
               

            One would think such pious color-blindedness as you proclaim for yourself, Mr. Limbaugh, and your party would have led to at least one black member of the Republican House.

            Report Abuse
            • Author by RINO Hunter (February 10, 2007 3:25 pm ET)
                 

              We tried to get a black man elected in Maryland, but he lost by a small margin. We also have a black on the Supreme Court. Don't forget that.

              Report Abuse
              • Author by dave_chicago (February 10, 2007 3:31 pm ET)
                   

                "We tried to get a black man elected"

                You mean, 'we tried to get a man elected', Mr. Color-Blind.

                Report Abuse
                • Author by RINO Hunter (February 10, 2007 3:35 pm ET)
                     

                  You're the one who seems to want to divide us up by race. You said that there are no black Republicans in the house. I simply pointed out that we tried to elect an African American to the Senate. If the Republicans are really so racist, then why did we try so hard to get Michael Steele elected?

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by solon (February 10, 2007 4:46 pm ET)
                       

                    Because he won the primary and the alternative was a Democrat? YA THINK?

                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by dave_chicago (February 10, 2007 6:56 pm ET)
                       

                    "I simply pointed out that we tried to elect an African American to the Senate."

                    I see. You tried to elect an African-American. A person of a certain race. It seems you and your party are not color-blind. You and the Republicans, for some reason, suddenly have to try and elect an African-American in the Senate.

                    Did you ever think that if you and your party displayed a little more regard for people of color (and what they have endured here for 200 years) than that which, for example, Mr. Limbaugh does (the person whose bigoted remarks you actually defend) you wouldn't have to "try" so hard to find an electable, African-American Repulican?

                    Report Abuse
          • Author by IRONY 101 (February 10, 2007 3:35 pm ET)
               

            "I don't look at people as being black or white. I look at people as being people."

            That's admirable, Rino... and I'm not being sarcastic. What some of have been saying, in this thread and others, is that if you are a Republican you don't have to look very closely among its membership to find people who don't fully embrace your rational, proper and moral racial attitude. Some of it may be subtle, some of it may be overt... but racism is a component (a significant component, many of us believe) of the Republican Party. And people like Rush Limbaugh (and others), regardless what their personal racial views may be, intentionally play to the racial prejudices of many of their Republican fans. Why? Because it keeps those voters inside the Republican reservation and p*ssed off enough about blacks to get out and vote against Democrats.

            Report Abuse
          • Author by HuntingtonBeachLefty (February 10, 2007 6:48 pm ET)
               

            Stop it, Rino, you're killing me.

            You just posted on the mental superiority of whites vs. the athletic prowess of blacks(which compensates for their lower IQ's , according to you), now you are completely unaware of any racial differences in people? You're all over the place with your logic, even for a dittohead.

            Report Abuse
            • Author by RINO Hunter (February 10, 2007 8:11 pm ET)
                 

              "now you are completely unaware of any racial differences in people"

              No, I just said that in the end we're all equal. I also said that, ON AVERAGE, blacks have certain strengths and whites have certain strenghts. There are certainly exceptions. I know some very intelligent blacks, and I also know some very dumb whites. I'm talking about THE AVERAGE. THE AVERAGE comes from statistics that can't be refuted. That doesn't mean that one race is any better than the other. The "color blind" comment comes from the fact that I don't think that people should be judged according to the color of their skin. Employers should choose the employee who is best suited for the job, regardless of their race.

              Report Abuse
          • Author by prof (February 11, 2007 7:29 pm ET)
               

            Wow!  Are you actually Steve Colbert?  Are we on his show right now?  You're just kidding, right?  You're actually not a lame-brain racist?

            Report Abuse
        • Author by solon (February 10, 2007 4:44 pm ET)
             

          Yeah I think the caucus of Black Republicans meets in a phone booth

          Report Abuse
    • Author by DorisRussell (February 10, 2007 8:39 am ET)
         

      Rush Limbaughs racist rants are nothing new. I am not much of a football fan but his Rex Grossman statement was deplorable and another example of his racism.  MMFA has done a great job exposing this guy for what he is, I just wish even more and more mainstream media would get on board. I look at him as in the same class as Ann Coulter, am I wrong?

      Report Abuse
      • Author by IRONY 101 (February 10, 2007 8:43 am ET)
           

        "I look at him as in the same class as Ann Coulter, am I wrong?"

        Neither one of them has any class, Doris...  ;>)

        Report Abuse
        • Author by DorisRussell (February 10, 2007 8:48 am ET)
             

          ok. i look at him as the same ilk as Ann Coulter ;-)

          Report Abuse
          • Author by IRONY 101 (February 10, 2007 9:56 am ET)
               

            Yep, Doris... I'd put them in the same bag, too... a bag of vipers, maybe.  Ooops, sorry... that sounds like something Ann Coulter would say.  ;>)

            The difference I see in them, though, is in style. Ann Coulter is more crude, even primitive, in the way she attacks.  Limbaugh's schtick is to pretend to use logical arguments... although his leaps of logic are absolutely astounding, in my opinion. But although their styles may differ they are definitely on the same team... like on a football team, one could be the crafty quarterback while the other could be the battering ram fullback.  Anyway, I don't like either one of them... they are both evil, repulsive people whose common goal is not only to divide people ideologically but to make people hate one another. "Hate" is a strong word and I'm not using it here just as hyberbole. I honestly believe they have no problem with fostering hatred... and that may speak to what each one of them harbors inside themselves.

             

            Report Abuse
            • Author by DorisRussell (February 10, 2007 10:14 am ET)
                 

              Irony, i dont think evil is the word for Ann Coulter. From her nasty statement about the 9/11 widows to her other outrageous hate. Rush tries to be more nice but he has said some awful hateful things so many I dont know where to begin. They are both terrible people.

              Report Abuse
              • Author by IRONY 101 (February 10, 2007 11:40 am ET)
                   

                ...on Limbaugh.

                Many times Ann Coulter just seems just off the wall... a blithering loose cannon. Rush Limbaugh's approach is more disciplined and.systematic. The main feature of Limbaugh's style is his purported use of "logic"... and his use of distorted facts, but both of which his audience is ideologically receptive to. 

                For example, I once heard Limbaugh say that liberals "LOVED IT"  when the Columbine massacre occurred. He said that tragedies such as Columbine afforded liberals a specific opportunity in which to (cynically) argue in favor of gun control. As unbelievable as it sounds, he actually said liberals "LOVE"  when tragedies like Columbine occur. What kind of logic is that? As a parent I cannot imagine anything more unbearable than losing one of my children. I am sure ANY parent, regardless of political party affiliation, would agree with me. Limbaugh doesn't even have children... but even so, how could anyone logically conclude that liberals would be happy over the murder of children or teenagers? But that'a an example of Limbaugh's leaps of logic...

                The other thing is how he distorts facts... or even just lies about facts. When I am on the road I will sometimes listen to Limbaugh on the car radio. When Limbaugh gets on a roll he wil speak very fast, in his best authoratative voice, as he builds his argument to a crescendo. I have heard him sometimes when, literally, almost every 20 or 30 seconds he will say something that is either demonstrably and blatantly false or something to which I could point to 4 or 5 facts in rebuttal which would at least tend to cast the remark into the realm of opinion rather than fact. Nevertheless, these things are all presented by Limbaugh as undisputable facts. I almost wish sometimes that I was listening to a tape of him so I could pause it to listen again to what he's just said because just as soon as I've digested one false assertion he's already stating another one. Then, when Limbaugh reaches his conclusion I am sure all the ditto-heads are nodding in agreement like bobble-head dolls (maybe that's what we should start calling Limbaugh's "ditto-heads"... "bobble-heads"). Even on those rare occasions when his "logic" (the logical progression of his argument, I mean) is technically sound, there are about a half dozen false assumptions upon which his 'logical" conclusion is built.

                As much as I dislike Rush Limbaugh I see how clever he actually is in manipulating an audience... admittedly an already receptive audience. But it only works (like with Bill O'Reilly, for example) when Limbaugh works solo and controls the mike. In a real debate with any intelligent liberal Limbaugh would get his butt whipped. (As for O'Reilly, in a real debate with an intelligent liberal he'd probably end up trying to head butt the other guy.) Anyway... enjoyed the chat, Doris. Later...

                Report Abuse
            • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (February 10, 2007 1:18 pm ET)
                 

              "Yep, Doris... I'd put them in the same bag, too... a bag of vipers, maybe.  Ooops, sorry... that sounds like something Ann Coulter would say.  ;>)"

              -----

              Vipers wouldn't touch Coulter. Professional courtesy, you know. Also, if they bit her, they could be poisoned to death. 

              Report Abuse
    • Author by lyn19875371 (February 10, 2007 5:00 pm ET)
         

      Actually, when O'reilly debates an intelligent liberal he tends to either cut off the mic, or the segment just doesn't air.

      Report Abuse
    • Author by Limit Corp. Ownership (February 12, 2007 12:07 am ET)
         

      Thank God for Francis Kissling and her letter to the New York Times.

      This abominable, hateful, piece of filth--Bill Donohue--has disgraced Catholics worldwide.

      It's very sad to see the mainstream media culpable in the marginalization of Catholics.  This man Donohue disgraces us.

      Report Abuse

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