"Media Matters"; by Jamison Foser
Washingon Post ed board to readers: That was then
When news of the Bush administration's warrantless domestic spying operation broke, The Washington Post editorialized several times against the scheme. The Post's editorial board wrote that it indicated that the White House thought "the president is entitled to ignore a clearly worded criminal law," that it "shows a profound disregard for Congress and the laws it passes," that it "appears to violate the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act," and "must be forced to explain itself comprehensively."
But, as we noted, the Post did not call for an independent investigation. Instead, the Post simply (and ineffectually) stomped its feet and insisted that the Bush administration come clean on its own. The Post's behavior, as we explained, stood in stark contrast to the Post's treatment of President Clinton -- the paper once went so far as to call for an independent investigation of the Clintons despite acknowledging that there was "no credible charge" that they had done anything wrong.
Under pressure from the Post and other news organizations, Clinton asked his Justice Department to appoint an outside investigator to examine the incredible charges that ultimately proved baseless.
By contrast, the Bush administration -- blissfully free from pressure by news organizations like the Post to appoint a special counsel -- conducted an in-house "investigation" of the warrantless domestic spying operation. President Bush's Justice Department -- led by his old Texas crony Alberto Gonzales -- undertook the probe.
And, soon enough, Bush himself interceded to thwart that investigation by denying investigators the security clearance they needed to conduct the probe. In July 2006 testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee, Gonzales revealed that earlier that year, President Bush personally blocked the investigators' access to information about the program.
Faced with the fact that President Bush had already demonstrated that he had no interest in allowing a real investigation of the program -- indeed, that he was willing to personally intercede to prevent such a probe -- The Washington Post responded by insisting that "Mr. Bush should permit the investigation."
To be fair, that isn't all the Post editorial said. Faced with a Republican-controlled Congress that had -- as even the Post editorial page had previously acknowledged -- repeatedly refused to conduct oversight of the Bush administration, the Post editorialized that, should Bush refuse to allow the investigation, "Congress needs to get more information about what has happened."
Needless to say, Bush didn't permit an investigation, and Congress didn't get the information. And the Post editorial page let the matter drop.
Eight months later, the National Journal's Murray Waas reported this week that, shortly before Gonzales advised Bush on whether to pull the plug on the investigation, Gonzales found out that the probe would likely focus on his own conduct. According to Waas, "It is unclear whether the president knew at the time of his decision that the Justice inquiry ... would almost certainly examine the conduct of his attorney general."
But, as Waas noted, Gonzales and Bush have a problem either way:
Current and former Justice Department officials, as well as experts in legal ethics, question the propriety of Gonzales's continuing to advise Bush about the investigation after learning that it might examine his own actions. The attorney general, they say, was remiss if he did not disclose that information to the president. But if Gonzales did inform Bush about the possibility and the president responded by stymieing the probe, that would raise even more-serious questions as to whether Bush acted to protect Gonzales, they said.
[...]
Charles Wolfram, a professor emeritus of legal ethics at Cornell University Law School, said that if Gonzales did not inform the president, Gonzales ill-served Bush and abused "the discretion of his office" for his own benefit. However, if Gonzales did inform Bush that the probe might harm Gonzales, then "both [men] are abusing the discretion of their offices," Wolfram said.
When the Post called for a special counsel to investigate "no credible charge" against the Clintons, the paper argued, "[I]t is in the public interest -- and in the president's as well -- to put the inquiry in independent hands." The Post explained:
Nor is it protection enough to say that the investigation is in the hands of career attorneys. To whom do they report? Who clears and vouches for their work? Two presidential appointees in the normal chain of prosecutorial command have already had to recuse themselves. There is no way even under the best of circumstances, which don't exist here, that a Justice Department in any administration can conduct a credible investigation involving a president to whom it is ultimately responsible. That's what's at issue in this matter -- and why an independent figure should be named.
Yet the Post did not apply that logic to domestic spying investigation -- even after Gonzales admitted the president personally quashed the investigation. Waas' report that Gonzales advised President Bush about the probe even after he knew that his own actions would likely be a key component of the investigation only makes the Post's inconsistency more glaring.
But if that still isn't enough, this week brought yet another illustration of the double standard the Post has applied to investigations of the Clinton and Bush administrations.
With a seemingly endless stream of new and damning revelations about the Bush administration's political purge of eight U.S. attorneys -- and a series of contradictory statements about the purge made by administration officials -- the Post's principle that "[t]here is no way ... that a Justice Department in any administration can conduct a credible investigation involving a president to whom it is ultimately responsible" would seem to apply now more than ever. Indeed, in this case, the Justice Department would be investigating itself in addition to the White House.
And there is, to be clear, a legal issue at play, not merely a political scandal, despite what some pundits have claimed. In calling for the appointment of a special counsel, Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington (CREW) explained:
In the past few months, Department of Justice (DOJ) officials have testified before Congress that the U.S. Attorneys were asked to resign for performance related reasons, that the White House was minimally involved in the firings and that the Department was in no way attempting to evade the confirmation process for new U.S. Attorneys.
Documents provided by the DOJ to Congress suggest that at least one high-ranking official, D. Kyle Sampson, knew that the statements made to Congress were untrue. If, as it appears, a Department of Justice official allowed other officials to provide inaccurate information to Congress, federal crimes may have been committed.
Federal law provides that if Sampson knew that he was causing DOJ officials to make inaccurate statements to Congress, he can be prosecuted for the federal crime of lying to Congress even though he did not personally make any statements to Congress. The Special Prosecutor should investigate not only Mr. Sampson's conduct but whether anyone else was involved in formulating the incomplete and erroneous congressional testimony or whether the officials who testified were aware that they were providing imperfect information to Congress.
And that was before ABC News' report that White House senior adviser Karl Rove was more involved in the prosecutor purge than had been previously disclosed. According to ABC:
New unreleased e-mails from top administration officials show that the idea of firing all 93 U.S. attorneys was raised by White House Deputy Chief of Staff Karl Rove in early January 2005, indicating Rove was more involved in the plan than the White House previously acknowledged. The e-mails also show how Alberto Gonzales discussed the idea of firing the attorneys en masse while he was still White House counsel -- weeks before he was confirmed as attorney general.
The e-mails put Rove at the epicenter of the imbroglio and raise questions about Gonzales' explanations of the matter.
Curiously, the Washington Post's news section has, as of this writing, failed to note CREW's call for a special prosecutor -- or even the specific legal issues CREW raised. In a March 16 front-page article about possible false statements to Congress by administration officials, the Post did report that the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers had called for a special prosecutor. But the Post didn't mention CREW's call, or note as CREW did that Sampson may have violated the law simply by allowing others to give Congress false information.
Considerably less surprising is that the Post's editorial page once again refuses to hold the Bush administration to the standard it applied to the Clinton administration. In 1994, the Post insisted on a special counsel to investigate the Clintons even in the absence of a single credible charge against them because the Post thought it impossible for a Justice Department to conduct a credible investigation of a president. But today, faced with a burgeoning scandal that involves not only the president and top White House aides but also the Department of Justice itself, the Post still does not demand the appointment of an outside investigator. Instead, it simply asks that "the entire story of the firings be uncovered."
This week alone has brought news that:
- After Gonzales learned that the Justice Department's investigation of the domestic spying operation would likely target his own conduct, he continued to advise Bush on the investigation. Bush then personally quashed the investigation -- a decision the Post called a "wildly inappropriate" move that "can only fuel suspicion." Prominent legal ethicists say it appears that Gonzales, Bush, or both abused their office.
- Bush, Rove, Gonzales, and then-White House counsel Harriet Miers were all involved, in varying degrees, with the decision to fire eight U.S. attorneys, some of whom were investigating prominent Republicans, and some of whom were the subject of complaints from Republican members of Congress that they were not prosecuting Democrats. Administration officials have made an array of contradictory claims about how and why the firings occurred, including statements to Congress that were apparently false. A government watchdog organization has called for a special prosecutor to investigate possible law-breaking by senior Justice Department officials.
We have, in other words, two separate scandals involving the Bush administration. In both cases, The Washington Post has editorialized that finding the truth is essential. In both cases, the investigators - in the Bush Justice Department -- are in the position of investigating the White House, which The Washington Post has editorialized is impossible for any Justice Department to do credibly. In both cases, the DOJ faces the added complication of conducting an investigation that must examine the actions of its more immediate boss, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales. In one case, Bush has already quashed the investigation in a move the Post editorialized against.
And in neither case has the Post called for the appointment of a special counsel.
The Post owes its readers an explanation. Why does the logic it used to insist that the Clinton administration appoint a special counsel to investigate "no credible charge" -- that the DOJ couldn't credibly conduct the investigation itself -- not apply now? Why does the Post continue to insist that the Bush administration disclose "the entire story," criticize the administration when it fails to do so, and then move on? Why doesn't the Post call for a special counsel?
The pressure The Washington Post placed on the Clinton administration helped lead to an independent counsel who spent tens of millions of taxpayer dollars investigating President Clinton's sex life.
The pressure The Washington Post refuses to place on the Bush administration has helped the administration avoid a special counsel investigation of, among other things, whether laws have been broken in connection with a warrantless domestic spying operation and whether the administration purged prosecutors in order to prevent investigations of its allies and encourage investigations of its political opponents.
Just today, the Post explicitly linked the current scandal to Whitewater in arguing that Bush should allow White House staff to testify before Congress: "President Bill Clinton's top aides were routinely hauled before Congress to testify on everything from Whitewater to presidential pardons." Beyond the Post's recognition in this case that the conduct of administration officials has been "misleading," it surely can take the next step to recognize "credible evidence" -- laid out clearly by CREW -- sufficient to justify the appointment of a special counsel.
In today's Post editorial -- which carries the laughable sub-headline "How to get the full story on the dismissals of eight U.S. attorneys" -- the paper calls for President Bush to "ensure that lawmakers get the full story." The Post knows how unlikely this is -- it has previously editorialized against the Bush administration's "stonewalling" of investigations and criticized the president's "wildly inappropriate" efforts to stymie investigations of his administration. Yet, absurdly, it continues to pretend that the way "to get the full story" is for Bush to "ensure" that it happens. When Bill Clinton was president, The Washington Post editorialized that it was impossible for an administration to police itself. Now, with George W. Bush as president, the Post suggests it's the only possibility.
If the Washington Post editorial board is going to hold the Clinton and Bush administrations to such wildly different standards, the least it can do is explain why. The Post once editorialized that no Justice Department can credibly investigate the president. Faced with even greater conflicts of interest and an administration it has repeatedly denounced for withholding the truth, if the Post editorial board apparently does not believe a special counsel is warranted, it owes readers an explanation why.
***
In light of this report, it is worth noting that, even if Gonzales "resigns" today, that would not eliminate the questions raised about his conduct and that of other Justice and White House officials.
***
We've previously detailed the bizarre Bush-era tendency of major newspaper editorial boards to disregard principles they held dear during the Clinton administration. The Chicago Tribune, for example, editorialized in 1998 that Clinton should resign because his statements about the Monica Lewinsky matter would make it difficult to trust him in the future: "Who will know when he's telling the truth and when he's not, whether he's being sincere or play-acting, whether his word is his bond or just another artful dodge?" Now, despite the fact that the American people long ago lost the ability to know when Bush is telling the truth about matters of war (latest example: An ABC News/Washington Post poll conducted last month found that fully 63 percent of Americans "cannot trust the Bush Administration to honestly and accurately report intelligence about possible threats from other countries?"), the Tribune stays silent. And The New York Times, like The Washington Post, called for a Whitewater special counsel in 1994. Yet, like the Post, the Times is strangely hesitant to do the same now, as we have repeatedly explained.
















"disregard principles they held dear during the Clinton administration".
That may be the understatement of the year. I distinctly remember watching cable TV every night for two or three hours in the mid 90's. The topic? Congressional hearings on all of the Clinton "scandals" and finally the impeachment over his lie about sex. I watched every night because I held out hope that someone would expose the dishonesty of Clinton's tormentors. Geraldo Rivera tried, but was shouted down by the endless parade of Right Wing liars that still plague us to this day. Perhaps that's why he's all but disappeared these past few years.
Now that we have an administration that is more corrupt than any in modern history, the same media outlets can't seem to find the time to talk about anything but a dead stripper and an astronaut in diapers.
This latest scandal seems to be getting their attention, though. As the layers of deception and corruption are peeled away, will they still be able to give Puddinhead George a pass?
This is very troubling and potentially very damaging to the WH. Are "inept" and "incompetent" their middle names? Can they not do anything right? Those that have questioned Bush's competence have hit the nail on the head - as he ever ran anything well in his entire life? If so, I have never seen it.
If these US Attorneys were fired for political reasons right before an election to embarass Democrats, and then Rove and Gonzales lie about it as evidently proven by these surfaced emails.....well, Gonzales should resign, now. They had every right to fire any US attorney they wanted, but it should be for policy, not political reasons. But to lie about what they knew is just another incompetency from them all.
November 2008 can't come fast enough for me.
Pretty much.
Many pundits are trying to pass this of as no big deal, but it is a big deal. The thing is, for me at at least, this is only the tip of the iceberg as far as I'm concerned.
If we had a truly independent press, the Bush Administration would be cooked as of now. The Attorney General has obviously lied to Congress, Valerie Plame has just testified UNDER OATH that she was, indeed, covert, despite what the Flying Monkey Liars have insisted for three years. We have just learned that Republican Congressmen were kicked off of committees in 2004 because they tried to increase the VA budget...how many shoes have to drop before the press does its job and devours this gang of criminals?
Well it looks like maybe it might be starting now Nerzog. This District Attoreny piece seems to be growing, not being covered by by other (less important) news.
Lets all hope the Bush Age of Inept Journalism is over. (crossing fingers and toes, while holding a four leaf clover and praying to every god or goddess that was ever worshiped for good fortune)
(Hey alternate theory: maybe the CIA killed Anna Nichol to try to distract the American public?)
The part of the press that is still trying to do its job has to compete with a load of tabloids, not to mention the Republican media constantly telling their audience how horrible actual journalists are.
Almost as bad as education, that reporting of facts.
Covert, 2 meanings, the dictionary meaning, "not openly shown, engaged in, or avowed" versus the very specific wording of the US Code:
(4) The term “covert agent” means—
(A) a present or retired officer or employee of an intelligence agency or a present or retired member of the Armed Forces assigned to duty with an intelligence agency— (i) whose identity as such an officer, employee, or member is classified information, and (ii) who is serving outside the United States or has within the last five years served outside the United States;Oh, Valerie may have been covert (not "open"), but the real question is whether or not she was a "covert agent" at the time of the Armitage disclosure to Novak.
That's been settled. Turn on Cspan. Covert, classifed and travelled over seas within the last 5 years. Yummy. Indictments to follow surely.
The real question is why did any of this matter if not to sully the reputation of her husband.
It wasn't anyone's business. The entire administration and their enablers in the press have ben dancing and squirming since this whole mess saw the light of day.
Everyone in this country should be outraged. This has nothing to do with left or right. It goes to the heart of what this nation stands for. No amount of spin will change the fact that intelligence capabilities were weighed to be less important than politics.
Give it up, TalkingPoints boy.
"She said she had served her country "honorably and as a covert agent" until her name was exposed in the media "after a leak by administration officials." Both the CIA and Plame declared that she was "covert" on the day Robert Novak outed her in a column in 2003."
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003558908
I'm sure PigBoy Limbaugh will tell you a different story, but, in case you hadn't noticed, he is paid to lie for the GOP.
Nerzog, I tuned in Rush while driving this morning and heard him belching out the talking points re: the Plame case- Novak says she couldn't have been covert if she worked in the CIA building, Why didn't they go after Libby for the underlying crime, etc.
I just went to lunch and scanned the radio- Tom Hartman on Air America was playing actual audio of the hearings with Plame, which seem to confirm just the opposite of all the righty talking points.So I turned on the last few minutes of Der Rushbo to see how he was spinning it. Here's how he closed out his show;
Bad news for Democrats- Iraqi street markets are being turned into pedestrian only zones, making it more difficult for car bombers to operate ( Dems are rooting for the terrorists, in case you hadn't heard)
Cats attacking their owners stories- there must be some inside joke that I don't have the background on, but Pigboy does a lot of cats gone wild stories.
Sean Hannity is fired up about NYC firefighters being moved to the back of the St. Paddy's parade, and he's going to Have Mitt "The Chin" Romney on. Sean declares that he's not going to do the "same old Romney interview", that is, he won't talk about abortion or religion.
Yes, people do listen to Rush and Hannity for their news.
I missed the end of his show, but when I did hear it, he was sticking to his talking points. He still insists that Plame is lying about sending her husband to Nigeria. We'll see. If she just lied under oath, maybe Gonzalez will indict her before he's forced to resign.
Quick question....If you do not like Rush or Hannity why do you help them by giving them ratings?
I guess I'll have to plead ignorance as to how ratings are figured. How is the info. collected when I listen to am radio while I'm driving?
Her identity was compromised two times previous. The only thing that ruined her covert status was media attention on it. The person responsible for revealing her name and status was Robert Novak not administration officials. He should be held responsible.
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040722-115439-4033r.htm
Dang media, Insaneloki- we should find out who's giving the media their information. Oh wait...
I am not saying those who told the media should no tbe held responsible but Robert Novak should also be held to the same standard. We are responsible for National Security.
Nerzog, what do you mean by a "truly independent press?" The press as the 4th branch of the federal government? The press as an investigative unit with judicial powers?
I mean, they report the news. They sniff around to see if anything smells. They're supposed to present the story and let the people decide...not "cook" anyone.
That's why I repeatedly say that MMfA, etc. should examine papers and major news anchors but ignore folks like Beck, Hannity, Savage, Maher, Olbermann, etc. etc....these guys are just talking heads, not part of the "press."
I tend to agree with what you're saying here. The press, not partisan, shock jock, screaming, cartoonish, inflammatory cable/radio talking heads, should be examined for fair and accurate reporting way before these other buffoons. They live off of the publicity they get here, and elsewhere.......their schtick is to be controversial and push the envelope of political correctness just to get a mention which, in their ego centric worlds, hopefully will lead them to higher ratings.
The public knows what they're getting when they listen to these guys.
I mean an independent press that actually does investigative reporting...remember investigative reporting? It was pretty common 30 years ago. Now they've been reduced to a "he said she said" stenography service. If that's all they can do, they need to just send cameras everywhere and fire the reporters.
The Bush administration clearly lied about the pre-war intelligence, yet the mainstream press has yet to report that story. Why?
It is that specific abuse of the power of the press - taking the title of "press" or "News" or "journalist" and perverting it to present lies and hate - that makes worthy the coverage of the lies and hate by MMFA. Let any of the cited talking heads be criticized, and what is the scream from nutzoids? Why, "freedom of the press", of course.
Ever greater the need for MORA! (link opens in new window).
Call or write Rep. Hinchley, to urge introduction of the 2007 version ASAP; call or write your own representatives to urge expedited passage through both Houses; Bungle might even forget to attach a signing statement nullifying the clear intent of the legislature!
Everyone that brings up the resinstatement of the Fairness Doctrine, in this day and age of never ending news and broadcast channels and the explosion of the internet, never can seem to detail how it will be implemented, monitored, or enforced. Before it was rightly disposed of, there were three basic TV channels to look out for.
Now, there are so many media outlets overflowing with information it would be the biggest nightmare of bureaucratic and bloated government waste of time, energy and money - not to mention absolutely unworkable. Liberals and conservatives have plenty of avenues to get their message out......if you can't figure out how, then that's your fault. The FD is only promoted by those that are losing in the public marketplace.
Maybe if they didn't have so many people monitoring boobs on TV, they would have the manpower to enforce it.
Actually, Tommy, as I had expressed in previous postings on MORA, I, personally, don't even care about the Fairness Doctrine, believe it to be difficult or impossible to enforce, and would rather it be dropped completely from MORA. However, Rep. Hinchley does believe it to be beneficial.
I would prefer simply cutting the reach of Corporate Media further than he believes he could get passed - perhaps 25% overall reach, 25% in any multi-outlet market. With the multiplication of ownerships from ensuing divestitures, I would not even care if some outlets were biased against the Dems/Liberals, for there would be sufficient opportunity to compete for that market through the other outlets.
Response: there are too many markets with fewer than four total outlets (2 radio, 1 TV, 1 newspaper?) My answer there goes to saturation by cable or satellite, achieving far more than a total of four nodes.
You left out the Internet. They can't control this medium like the rest. It's too open, too accessible, too global. The Internet is the only reliable source of information in the USA at this moment. As long as we have the Internet, the corporofascists are destined to fall. Long live the free press, even if it is electronic and written in html.
RedKing: although the web is indeed my primary - no, actually, sole - source, and enables access to International outlets of "conventional" media, there are numerous problems with relying absolutely on the internet to balance the blast of Corporate Media disinformation.
For one thing, it is not passive, as are the foremost offenders (radio and TV); a sizeable handicap, in that it reaches only those who seek information, and, then, only those who are seeking at a specific instant. For the vast majority, who do not react with insane rage whenever the talking heads begin to lie (the instant, usually, that they begin to speak) as do I, the insidious nature of those passive invasions colors what may later be obtained from the internet.
For another, it is more limited in reach than those media, or even the print outlets. Not everyone has more than dial-up access, and, some, not even that access. Although for years, I used dial-up to check the BBC, the Times of London, the Guardian, and at least a couple of Canadian sources, before checking CNN, or WaPo, that was an arduous effort even for such a dextrous nut as I. (Clue: must use multiple windows, each to a different url, and kill the load times reading each of the already open sites; else, so nearly unbearable as to hardly matter; also, turn off video, audio, even graphics with selective exceptions for those pictures which ARE the story.)
Finally, the Corporations have become aware of the minority of us who do not follow their plan of passivity, and are manuevering to take away the internet as a tool for us: between YouTube, and the evolving attacks on Net Neutrality, we might not always be able to count on the internet as an accessible, neutral, source of information, unless we act to ensure that the media as a whole shall be accessible and neutral.
Talk about irony: dexterous !
The Fairness Doctrine makes little to no sense. In a truly free press then there should absolutely no government control. When you start allowing government to control media it is a slippery slope to censorship.
We had the fairness doctrine for decades and it didnt turn into censorship. The airwaves belong to US, they are a public resource. People like Limbuagh and Weiner make money off of OUR resource and are supposed to perform a public service. Lying, distorting and propagandizing are NOR performing that service. Mandating the other side at least get a nod is not too much to ask
So instead of media oversight by a government of we the people you prefer media control by profit driven corporations?
Will conservatives ever realize that the market does not function on the premise of free, open and all inclusive participation? In other words, since the market serves narrow interests of profitability, corporate control is anti-democatic, as in opposes democracy. The best interests of the people will not be served, in any endeavor, so long as profit is the bottom line.
Yes Capitalism is a powerful force. It is liberals own fault that Conservatives dominate talk radio and other media. You started watching them and stopped watching liberal media. They lost advertising, then money, then went out of buisness. Just look at Air America. The current media situation is your own doing. And the only way you are going to do something about it is to make sure liberal host or people you believe to be fair more ratings and by proxy more money and power. You are not going to accomplish anything by legislation and more government control. The government cannot control anything, they have proven it time and time again.
We had the fairness doctrine for decades, there were no claims of widespread problems with it. You are making assumptions not based on facts in evidence there are probably many reasons RIGHTWING hateradio is more popular than leftwing radio, perhaps liberals dont enjoy the format, perhaps we dont do the preaching to the choir thing, perhaps we prefer to read. However I think it DOUBTFUL that the liberals stopped listening to their guys and started listening to Rush in large numers. MSNBC took their HIGHEST rated talk show host off the air because they didnt want a liberal on with the runup to the war coming. Also you baselessly assert that it is all about ratings its all about ADVERTISING, and the business community is obviously more receptive to a conservative message. You should look for a documentary called Fear and Favor in the newsroom to see the many liberal and investigative journalists who suffered for being RIGHT because their message was one business didnt want to hear. The Kwitney report got cancelled the year after the won the POLK award because advertisers didnt like his top notch investigative reporting making them look bad. Now remember WE OWN THE AIRWAVES. In return for them making obscene profits from OUR resource they are supposed to return a public service, if business gets to decide the message regardless of public interest then the media is escewing its most basic function to INFORM the public. Thomas Jefferson once said something to the effect if a people expect to be uninformed and free they expect what never has been and never will be. Exactly HOW is letting the conservative message completely dominate because they can more easily attract business advertising helpful in INFORMING the public? Especially when it is shown how much the screechmonkeys like Weiner, and Limbaugh debase the dialogue and LIE to the people?
Love that answer! Obviates another of my six-paragraph rants, and more readable, besides!
All you are doing is echoing my argument that liberals are in a situation of their own making. Yes it is all driven by money. The rich like to be rich and will glean on to anything they think will keep them rich and make them richer.
If liberals do not listen to conservative host sites like this wouldn't exist.
So the handful of people who listen to right-wing media in order to point out lies is the reason it exists in the first place?
Last time I checked, Air America is not out of business. In fact, Air America is slowly regaining a foot hold. Also, no longer is AA the be all end all of lib radio. Nova M radio and the Head On Radio Network(HORN) are gradually gaining support. That's fine by me. Progressives need to be patient and steadfast. We must take the longview, our ideas on the common good and moral economics will prevail. People are learning the truth of market fundamentalism: profit over people is anti-American.
Now, the Fairness Doctrine doesn't concern me all that much. My main point was that the conservative view of government is flawed. Intead of taking the progressive view that the American democratic institution of government belongs to the people, conservatives would rather cede their liberties to the whims of the invisible hand of the market. Conservatives would hand their rights over to closed, exclusive, private interests rather than participate in open, inclusive, public debate. Basically, as a progressive liberal, I would rather exercise my democratic rights, along with my fellow Americans to form a more perfect union. Conservatives would rather just give up on democracy.
I resent that implication. Conservativeness is not an enemy to Democracy, quit the opposite. I want more power to the individual not all of it in the government hands.
This is a situation we can solve ourselves. Rather than handing over more control to the government we could in mass tell the market what we want. Refuse to given them our ratings and advertising dollars until they gave us what we wanted. They would respond because they would have to, they do not want to lose money. But you would rather complain and hand over more control to the government over your daily lives.
We are the government, Loki. That is my point.
We have the power to make our leaders our followers if only we accept that awesome responsibility. Privatization is the antithesis of democracy, corporations are accountable only to profit. You can petition a private entity to redress a grievance but it's meaningless if that company's investors determine your problem too costly to fix.
Our Bill of Rights guarantees you and I the right to peaceably assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. You will get no such guarantee from private interests.
So, yes if you choose privatization over democracy you are anti-American and no amount of resentment on your part will change reality.
Exactly. One could easily justify kidnapping, slavery, fraud, health violations, mass pollution, just about anything if corporate profits are the trumping concern.
Now your just going to extremes because you have nowhere else to go. The market will do whatever the public wants because that is what will make them money. If a liberal message was what a majority of Americans wanted then that would what would dominate.
Oh, so you can say "When you start allowing government to control media it is a slippery slope to censorship", and that's a fair argument, but showing the other slippery slope of what could obviously happen if the market truly had free reign is "going to extremes"? If corporate profits were to be the prime concern, then any of those things and many more can be justified, period. Other concerns make the free market a good guiding principle but not an absolute, unrestrained rule.
Don't we have censorship now? Don't you think corporate ownership has its own reasons to influence which stories go out there and which ones don't?
What's the problem with an independent government operation to watch the media and force them to correct or retract their errors and lies? It's certainly not cost, as it's hard to imagine the need for more than a couple hundred people to watch/listen, research, do paperwork and make phone calls (and the refusal of a program to correct itself could result in a stiff fine, which makes the operation pay for itself!). It couldn't possibly help the left disproportionately, with all the liberal bias we keep hearing about. Outside of general lack of faith in anything the government does, or an irrational fear of the government, what reason is there to oppose such a thing? Is censorship of inaccuracy really a valid concern to you?
tommy "The public knows what they're getting when they listen to these guys. "
I think you would need to qualify that. Personally, I know people who believe Rush, especially when he says things like "Listen my friends, here is the truth you won't hear in the liberal media" which really means he is about to pop off with another whopper.
"Whopper" as in huge lie. Do I need to cite a specific example or are 10,000 and counting enough?
Seriously, my Great Uncle Paul, would say things like, "Every newscaster on TV said such and such, why if I had'nt listened to Limbaugh I would have never known the truth"
Exactly; I've heard the same sentiment at family reunions for years. Tommy keeps insisting that Rush doesn't matter, yet millions of Republicans hang on his every word...and they don't consider him "merely entertainment". He's convinced them that everyone else is lying, not him.
Nerzog, Dexterita made the point. I just agreed it was a good one.
<>I acknowledge that, but I disagree with this statement in your post:
<>"It is solely for shock value, not to misinform anyone about anything relevant to that liberal's stance on some issue. "
It is my opinion that Rush's primary purpose is to misinform. Maybe that's my little tinfoil hat talking, but even if it isn't his primary purpose, it is his primary result.
You are right. I can't tell you how many times Rush, Hannity &al. have been sited as an authoritative sources when I have debated issues with my conservative friends. Thanks to MMFA, I am aware of the misinformation ahead of time.
Rush and Hannity often tell their audiences they are accurate and that if they don't hear the same thing elsewhere it is evidence of a "leftwing" media.
I am glad MMFA treats their misinformation as seriously as any other misinformation. Many people treat misinformation they hear from Rush and Hannity the same as if they heard it in the mainstream media.
Pit,
I am talking about when Rush makes one of his patented slams, i.e. name calling slurs, against liberals. There is no real misinformation in that - it is purely gratuituos. And for Rush's listeners, a funny line to provoke a laugh. It is solely for shock value, not to misinform anyone about anything relevant to that liberal's stance on some issue.
For this website to continue to highlight that is their business, but the poster's point, and mine, was they are missing the more relevant and potentially serious misinformation out there.
Okay Tommy,
"Hello I'm Katie Couric."
"Tonight on CBS news we will talk to you about a massive viral outbreak in downtown Cleveland.
Speaking of viral outbreaks; have you heard the latest bile out of President Bush's mouth?"
Is that journalism? Rush, etc. should not claim to be journalist, but they do. And a lot of (misguided) people think they are. Some of these people hang on every word and if they heard you say Rush is just entertainment they would be very unhappy with you.
And thats the danger I don't think you see. There are already studies that show people are highly influenced by what they hear, especially when they are bombarded day after day by this same information (its called "brainwashing"). Here is an experiment the next time Mr. Weiner has a thread here, print the transcript of his show and wait. Within the next week one of his listeners will be on to defend him and will repeat almost verbatim a Weiner speech.
If Rush has ever claimed to be a journalist, I have never seen it. To compare his opinionated and partisan radio show with Katie Couric's newscast is ridiculous. They serve totally different functions, and it's very clear.
Does Rush ever claim to be a journalist? I wouldn't say so. But he does constantly bombard his audience with lines about how he is telling "The Truth" and "The Real Story" while denigrating "so-called journalists" that disagree with his daily talking points.
He goes well beyond any actual journalist does in attempting to set himself up as a broadcaster of fact in his arrogance.
Anybody that listens to Rush and isn't completely aware that he is viewing every single political and social issue through his extremely well known partisan eyes, and then spouts out his "truths" and opinions based on his perception, is living in LaLa land - and not worth worrying about or stressing over that they aren't getting the complete picture. They don't want the complete picture even if you crammed it down their throat......they won't have it, and nothing any reasonable person, media or otherwise, can do will convince them any differently.
Much like a few of the entrenched leftist liberals on this site and others who wouldn't accept a conservative notion if they were force fed it either.
That may be so, but these uninformed people still have the right to vote.
Uninformed people voting for Republicans and Democrats probably cancel each other out, so it's most likely best to concentrate on those that are informed - and work on their sense of fairness and unbiased opinions.
as nerzog points out, those "living in la la land" still go out and vote for our leaders. and you're resident number one of "la la land", if you don't think most of them won't believe every thing he says. he tells them not to read the newspaper or watch the news. "i'm your newpaper" is what he says.
They vote, they boycott, they support Foxda, they write letters to the editor, and they spread the misinformation they receive. It's critical for a functioning democracy to have an informed populace and popular liars like Rush do massive damage to the accuracy of the information that a significant portion of the people believe to be true.
Further, this is SOP for the shrillest of the Right Wing Truth Squad. They seek refuge in the label of entertainers the moment they get called on crossing lines of taste, truth or decency but they very quickly return to calling themselves pundits and informers once the national spotlight is off of them.
Some flaws in your argument:
a) As others have pointed out, a frightening number of people listen to and view Rush, Hannity, Beck, et al as people who speak the "truth" that the "liberal" media doesn't want you to hear. These people, as you rightly point out, do so largely because it fits their preconceived notions. ANYONE in the media who is taken seriously by a critical mass of people like the above shape not just opinion but, more importantly. UNDERSTANDING of issues, as they perpetuate what amount to fundamental misunderstanding of key issues (see the study on how FOX viewers got key FACTS about 9/11 and the Iraq invasion wrong at a higher rate than NPR listeners). While I have issues with the bigotry I see evidenced in these blowhards, the biggest issue is their creation, reinforcement and perpetuation of true misinformation, regardless of the subject. We have seen very well that if you tell a lie/obfuscation/whatever loudly enough, long enough people begin to believe it as fact (9/11 = Iraq).
b) Simply dismissing these people as being crazy and not worth bothering about is highly irresponsible. I believe ignorance is bad. One should not excuse ignorant peopel for their ignorance. These people do matter. They do not exist simply as individuals, but as a part of this country, and they don't just have the right to vote, they DO vote. These are people being deliberatley misinformed for partisan purposes who then turn that misinformation into decisions and actions. MMFA's efforts to expose the misinformation (and I'm specifically dealing with that, not the posts more about bigotry or intolerance, which add complexity I am not focusing on right now) is about influencing this dynamic as best it can by simply point out what was said and how it measures up to the facts. Your dismissal of this idea because it is from someone who is obviously partisan ignores a fundamental responsibility we have to each other as people - to be true. It allows for deception and obfuscation to be excused depending on the position and partisan nature of the individual messenger.
c) While I agree that any liberal/left-wing media personality/journalist who does the same is just as guilty of misinformation, you have pointed out a number of times that Rush, Fox in general, Beck, etc. have a larger share of the market because many people listen to them and that their liberal counterparts do not have the same audience strength. By this basic statistic reality, one can make the argument that such partisan misinformation is much more of a conservative phenomenon than a liberal one. In addition, your argument that the people in "la-la land" on either side cancel each other out makes no sense based on your own observation about ratings.
I find your repeated dismissal of threads that point out misinformation from Rush, Hannity, Beck to seem more about your need to invalidate the actions of this site than any consistent position or argument.
Tommy, you may be smart enough to know that when Rush refers to himself as "America's Anchorman" (I think that's the title he uses), he's saying it facetiously enough to weasel out of it when cornered.
If you don't think he has a segment of his audience that thinks he's dead serious, I could introduce you to some of them.
The hypocrisy of the MSM is amazing is its depth. It goes on for miles and miles. Media Matters had a list of papers calling for Clinton's resignation over Monica. Not one of those papers have called for Bush's resignation. The MSM are truly disgusting people. I have a low opinion of journalists anyway, but the American media are the worst in the world, and they are the only ones who don't know it.
I remember seeing a cartoon after the 9/11 Commission released its report. It showed FBI, CIA, White House, etc all saying, "We investigated ourselves and found no signs of wrongdoing."
Or something like that. The same general idea applies here.Everyone, I saw some really mean and horrible WINGNUT posters on the "Media Matters Responds" article. And NO liberal respnse. I wrote one, but could someone back me up. I feel abandoned...
Sanitary Tortilla Factory.
Dear Kaleun and mail,
Huh?
Another thread, few postings because it is a little hidden or hard to spot; initially, a couple of cons provided some entertaining talking points. See If It's Sunday . . . - toward the bottom, two additional links including this, the last.
Thanks, Conley. I berry confuse.
Strangely ommited from this column are all the federal prosecutors Clinton fired.....
Does anyone mind telling me how it is a big deal that the Bush administration fires 8 US Attorneys when Clinton fired and replaced 93 simultaneously with little media attention.
This has been explained at least a dozen times. Everytime a new administration comes in especially when its a change from Dem to GOP or otherwise all the attorneys either resign or are fired so they new administration can have THEIR people. Reagan did this, Bush did this and Clinton did this. However what BUSH did was fire his OWN appointees in the middle of his OWN term because they werent partisan enough.
InsaneLoki seems to be even denser than Leatherhelmet.Or 2 or 3 days behind in the righty propaganda cycle.
It's all to distract the masses from the war and the real crimes of the government. Everyone was fine with Gonzalez saying it was ok to torture prisoners. They made him AG for it. Guess torturing arabs is way down on the totem pole of crimes over which to freak out on. But then we should remember that the Dems signed off on the Military Commissions Act too, still haven't demanded Guantanamo be closed. Our government still tortures and distracts us with petty squabbles over turf and titles. How...imperial. How Roman.
I still fail to see the problem. He did not feel they were doing the job he hired them to do. US Attorneys serve at the will of the President. If he decides to fire them because they got a bad haircut that is his choice whomever the President at the time may be. If my boss decided to fire me tomorrow that is his right. This is a made up scandal because there was nothing to attack Bush on this week.
Yeah too bad you arent under a union contract my boss has nothing to say about how I wear my hair which is about 8 inches below my collar. What you miss is the subversion of the justice dept. He didnt fire them for bad perfomance but for not being partisan enough. Do you think the conseqences of politicising the Justice dept is a good thing? That ONLY crimes done by Dems will be looked at under the GOP and visa versa? The consequences are obvious, more corruption and less accountability exactly HOW would that be a good thing for our country?
So what your in effect saying is that under a democrat President every Democrat scandal and crime would be investigated? Face the music the Justice Department is already politicized. It has been that way for as long I can remember.
How old are you if you don't remember all the investigations that went on over the Clinton administration? Whitewater was a non-story about real estate that was investigated so far that it morphed into a sex scandal.
What happened under Bush did not happen under Clinton, and your argument otherwise is poorly formed. Can you cite some examples to help yourself out please?
Using theWhitewater "scandal" and investigation:
Isn't it beatiful: Whitewater comes back to haunt the Republicans.
If a special prosecutor was required for the Whitewater trumped up hash, why not now when there is evidence of actual malfeasance?
Huh?
On "This Week," Senator Leahy noted that the person who was chosen to replace U.S. Attorney McKay in Washington state was not even a lawyer -- he's been disbarred!
I wonder if the mainstream media will decide this is important enough to report. (After the treatment Seymour Hersh's recent revelations have received, I won't hold my breath.)
I though *I* kept up with the Repugnant violations!
OTOH, I cannot find basis for this one. Sullivan appears to have been the Asst. Attorney until McKay's dismissal?
I viewed the video, and Sen. Leahy did indeed say something about "technically disbarred" - then confessed he did not really know the name of the candidate for the position. I have not yet caught up with a transcript, so I cannot determine who that candidate is. I believe someone (Stephanopolis?) said "former Congressman Rick White", but still attempting to verify that, since I don't hear as well as I did 50 years ago.
Seattle Times has more details:
Former Republican congressman Rick White, one of three candidates the Republicans have submitted to replace John McKay as U.S. attorney for Western Washington, cannot practice law in the state.