"Media Matters"; by Jamison Foser
From The New Republic to Free Republic
In the wake of this week's tragic events at Virginia Tech, several leading news organizations quickly predicted that there is little-to-no chance of the shootings resulting in stricter gun control measures -- in some cases, distorting public opinion and recent political history in order to do so.
CNN's Bill Schneider, for example:
Is the Virginia Tech tragedy likely to put gun control on the political agenda? Don't bet on it. In recent years, gun control has been an issue most politicians prefer to stay away from.
The last significant gun control measures to make it through Congress were the Brady bill in 1993 and the assault weapons ban in 1994.
And what happened? Democrats lost control of Congress for 12 years. President Clinton said the gun lobby had a lot to do with his party's defeat. Democrats have been gun-shy ever since.
Then-Vice President Al Gore rarely talked about gun control during the 2000 presidential campaign. Gore even went so far as to say he wouldn't restrict sportsmen or hunters, "None of my proposals would have any effect on hunters or sportsmen or people who use rifles."
So, what's the problem? There certainly is no shortage of Democrats who have stayed away from gun control in recent years, and no shortage of Democrats who think that political concerns suggest they should continue to do so.
But Schneider oversold his case -- badly -- by claiming that, ever since the 1994 assault weapons ban (arguably) cost Democrats control of Congress that year, Democrats have been gun-shy ever since. Schneider offered two purported examples to buttress his case -- the presidential campaigns of Al Gore and John Kerry. A careful observer will note that Schneider omitted any mention of the other presidential campaign during that timeframe: President Clinton's re-election campaign in 1996. That might seem a curious omission -- Schneider is arguing that even Bill Clinton knows the assault weapons ban was a significant cause of his party's losses in 1994, and that Democrats have stayed away from gun control ever since. Surely, then, Clinton's own approach to the issue in his 1996 campaign is relevant to Schneider's point.
Well, Bill Clinton didn't run away from gun control during the 1996 campaign. He ran on gun control -- even ran ads bragging about the assault weapons ban, and criticizing his opponent for opposing it. In fact, you can watch those ads on CNN's website: here's one ... and here's another. On the July 1, 1995, edition of CNN's Inside Politics, host Wolf Blitzer even played a portion of a Clinton ad highlighting the assault weapons ban, describing the ad as "what many are calling the kick-off to Bill Clinton's re-election campaign." Coincidentally, Blitzer now hosts CNN's The Situation Room, where he responded to Schneider's report not by noting that, in fact, Bill Clinton touted the assault weapons ban in television ads, but by simply saying "All right, Bill. Thank you for that report."
Of course, this doesn't mean that, in general, Democrats haven't been "gun-shy" about gun control in recent years. But by omitting the clearly relevant example of Clinton's gun ads, Schneider suggested greater unanimity than there is on the topic -- and omitted information that suggests that whatever caution Democrats do feel on the topic may not be entirely justified by recent political history. After all, the campaign in which Clinton ran those ads bragging about the assault weapons ban ended with him carrying Kentucky on the way to winning 379 electoral votes.
The Politico ran an article about Republican congressman Ron Paul that asserted that his views on guns "[e]cho[] the views of many Americans" and that "based on public opinion polls and reader feedback at Politico.com, he's far from alone." But Paul opposes any federal gun control legislation -- including the measures that are already on the books. Paul has introduced legislation to repeal every federal gun law. Those views place him in a tiny fringe on the outskirts of public opinion -- yet The Politico presented this extreme minority view as the norm.
Time's Karen Tumulty, in a Swampland blog post, did just the opposite: She presented a policy proposal -- registration of firearms -- that has enjoyed the support of nearly 80 percent of Americans as "radical." (In response, Tumulty accused us of taking her "out of context" and protested that she had written that the policy was "more radical" than another, not that it was radical. Tumulty is mistaken on the first count: We provided more context in our item than she did in accusing us of taking her out of context. As for the second, if Tumulty really believes that a loaded phrase like "radical" -- with or without the modifier "more" -- is an appropriate description of a policy that enjoys overwhelming public support, she is certainly entitled to that opinion.)
Dana Bash, Schneider's colleague at CNN, also spread misinformation about the public's attitudes toward gun control. Bash reported that "Democrats are reluctant to pass new gun restrictions, in part because public support for tightening gun laws has been steadily dropping. In 1990, 78 percent of Americans backed stricter gun laws. Now it's only 49 percent."
But, in claiming a dramatic decrease in support for tightening gun laws, Bash badly misled viewers. She used results from two different Gallup poll questions, one having to do with restrictions on the sale of firearms, and the other a broader question about "gun laws."
In October 1990, 78 percent of Americans said "the laws covering the sale of firearms should be made more strict." Gallup asks that question every October; the October 2006 poll found that support had dropped to 56 percent.
The "only 49 percent" figure Bash used came from a different question, which Gallup asks every January: "Would you like to see gun laws in this country made more strict, less strict, or remain as they are?"
Not only did Bash overstate the decline in support for tougher gun laws by mixing and matching results from different questions, in doing so, she obscured the fact that public support for stricter laws governing the sale of firearms has actually increased in recent years. From 1990 through 2000, at least 60 percent of Americans supported such laws. Then, in the October 2001 poll -- conducted just a month after the September 11 terrorist attacks -- Gallup found that support for tougher laws governing the sale of firearms had dropped to 53 percent. After dropping again to 51 percent in October 2002, support has increased to 57 and 56 percent in the past two years.
What many news reports that misstated public opinion or political history on gun control have in common is the premise that there will be no effort to change gun laws any time soon. Whether that assumption led journalists to overlook relevant facts, or resulted from their misreading of polls and history, we cannot know.
What does seem clear is that their certainty was premature. Just this morning, The Washington Post reported:
With the Virginia Tech shootings resurrecting calls for tighter gun controls, the National Rifle Association has begun negotiations with senior Democrats over legislation to bolster the national background-check system and potentially block gun purchases by the mentally ill.
Rep. John D. Dingell (Mich.), a gun-rights Democrat who once served on the NRA's board of directors, is leading talks with the powerful gun lobby in hopes of producing a deal by early next week, Democratic aides and lawmakers said.
Under the bill, states would be given money to help them supply the federal government with information on mental-illness adjudications and other run-ins with the law that are supposed to disqualify individuals from firearms purchases. For the first time, states would face penalties for not keeping the National Instant Criminal Background Check System current.
The legislation, drafted several years ago by Rep. Carolyn McCarthy (D-N.Y.), has twice passed the House, only to die in the Senate. But Cho Seung Hui's rampage Monday has given it new life.
That's right: After two days of media assurances that there is no way Democrats would ever consider tightening gun laws, which is getting less popular by the day, traditional opponents of gun control like Dingell and even the National Rifle Association are reportedly considering legislation drafted by McCarthy, one of the nation's most prominent supporters of gun control.
Of course, that doesn't mean Dingell and the NRA will end up supporting the legislation, or that it will pass. But it would seem to suggest that confident predictions by Schneider, Tumulty, and others that there is little chance of stricter gun laws as a result of the Virginia Tech shootings were premature.
Indeed, it would seem to suggest that the public would be better served if journalists stopped trying to tell us what will happen and, instead, just tell us the facts. As we argued last September:
[R]eporters often refuse to offer their judgment about matters of fact, but they do offer their judgment about the potential political effects of events and actions.
This is completely backwards.
Consumers of news lack the time, expertise, and, in many cases, ability to determine which of two contradictory statements by competing political figures is true. They often lack the resources to determine if, for example, President Bush's claim to have "delivered" on the promises he made in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina is true. That's where news organizations should -- but, with depressing frequency, have not -- come in. They have -- or should have -- the expertise and the time to assess those claims, and to report the facts. That's what readers, viewers, and listeners need. That's what journalism should be all about.
On the other hand, as consumers of news, we don't need journalists telling us what the "political impact" of something is going to be; how it will "play at the polls." It's our job to decide that. It's our job to decide who we'll vote for and why; how we'll assess the parties' competing agendas and approaches to the problems we face.
Instead of telling us how they think we'll react, we need journalists to give us the information upon which we can make an informed decision. To tell us the facts, and the truth, and the relevant context. Then we'll tell them the political impact.
We didn't point out at the time the other problem with journalists trying to predict the future rather than explain the present: Their predictions are often quite bad.
So, for example, we heard over and over again last year about how debate over national security issues would play to the Republicans' political advantage. Anybody remember how that turned out?
And, for weeks, leading news organizations have been ominously noting President Bush's latest assault on Democrats, wherein he and his administration assail them for being pro-surrender and wanting the troops to die and similar nonsense. Democrats had better watch out, the media keeps telling us, or Bush will turn the tables on them. And how is that working out? Roughly the same way every other renewed White House PR offensive over Iraq has worked out for the last few years: very, very badly. As Greg Sargent has noted, recent polling suggests that the more people hear Bush's arguments, the more they disagree with him. And, according to a Washington Post poll released this week, the more they want Democrats to set Iraq policy, not Bush.
It seems likely that a significant reason for journalists so often getting these things so wrong is the relatively narrow range of opinion that they hear from their sources, the people they quote, and their guests. As Media Matters Senior Fellow Duncan Black has argued on his blog, where he writes under the name Atrios, "the acceptable positions in Official Washington range from the New Republic to the Free Republic."
The latest example of the narrowness of that range of "acceptable positions" comes from MSNBC, which, having sacked Don Imus last week, is apparently granting on-air auditions to potential replacements. Who gets the first shot? Does the cable channel that already features programs hosted by conservatives Joe Scarborough and Tucker Carlson, along with Chris Matthews, who frequently bashes Democrats and swoons over Republicans, turn to a progressive voice for its morning show? No. After NBC News president Steve Capus explained the Imus firing by saying "there should not be a place" for "hurtful" comments on MSNBC, the channel is turning to Michael Smerconish next week. The same Michael Smerconish who has said that Muslims who pray in public are committing terrorism and decried America's "limp-wristedness."
Politico Editor-in-Chief John Harris has described the narrow spectrum of opinion preferred by the media as a "centrist bias" on the part of "the vast majority of political reporters." Setting aside the question of whether Harris and his fellow political reporters are right about where the "center" is, he explains the problem with this "centrist bias":
I sometimes think that if Washington political reporters ran the government their ideal would be to have a blue ribbon commission go into seclusion at Andrews Air Force base for a week and solve all problems. It would be chaired by Alan Greenspan and Sam Nunn. David Gergen would be communications director, and the policy staff would come from Brookings and the American Enterprise Institute. They would not come back until they had come up with sober, centrist solutions to the entitlements debate, the Iraq war, and the gay marriage controversy.
It took me a while to realize how this instinct for rationalist, difference-splitting politics can itself be a form of bias. It is ideologues, rather than Washington technocrats, who make history. On the right, ideas about free markets that a generation ago were exotic are now mainstream. More recently, what started out as the left's critique of the Iraq war increasingly defines the center.
The narrow range of opinion -- from The New Republic to Free Republic -- that is overrepresented in the news media largely excludes strong progressive points of view. It also helps conventional wisdom to calcify.
Which may be one reason why, long after public opinion polling began to show that President Bush is highly unpopular, many in the media couldn't seem to grasp that simple point (Chris Matthews, for example, was "amazed": "I always thought Bush was more popular than his policies. I keep saying it, and I keep being wrong on this. Bush is not popular.") And why, long after public opinion polling showed that people have had enough of the Iraq war and want out, many in the media seem to have trouble grasping that fact. When news organizations treat Joe Lieberman and John McCain as representative of the range of valid opinion, they are bound to be out of touch with a large segment of the American public -- and, in the case of Iraq, the clear majority.
But, particularly when the conventional wisdom is at odds with public opinion, the "political realities" it is supposedly based upon can shift quickly. Just look at health care: For years, in the wake of the failure of the Clinton health care plan in 1994, few prominent Democrats talked about universal health care, and fewer journalists seemed to take it seriously. Now, the three leading Democratic candidates for president -- Hillary Clinton, John Edwards, and Barack Obama -- all tout their support for universal health care.
So, rather than misleadingly using polling data and recent history to assert that there will be no change in gun laws, maybe the media should focus on explaining -- really explaining, in detail -- what the guns laws are. Americans strongly supported the assault weapons ban that the Republican Congress allowed to expire in 2004, and yet its expiration did not lead to a large spike in the number of Americans who support stricter gun laws. Might that suggest that many Americans don't know the assault weapons ban no longer exists?
We don't need the media to tell us how they think the gun debate will play out, or what the public reaction would be. We need them to simply report the facts: What are the laws we have now? What evidence is there that they work, or don't work? What proposals to change the laws are out there? What are the arguments for and against? Those are the kinds of questions journalists should focus on, not trying to guess what will happen -- and misleadingly using data to do so.
















mmfa headline: the sky is blue. some conservative posters: mmfa is really being misleading here, the sky actually contains no pigment, the eye actually sees sunlight filtered through the .........
little joke aside, the gun nuts [yes i meant that] want it both ways. i have no problem with private ownership of guns, but there should be certain people who are denied that right. the vt shooter obviously had a lot of mental problems and he should not have had the right to own a gun. but the gun nuts want everyone to be able to just walk in anywhere and purchase one with no trace and no restrictions.
Exactly.
Why was a man with well known and well documented violent dementia allowed to purchase firearms?
Why wasn't this nutcase, and all the others like him, on a list of people who can't buy guns?
"quote"-
Exactly.
Why was a man with well known and well documented violent dementia allowed to purchase firearms?
Why wasn't this nutcase, and all the others like him, on a list of people who can't buy guns?
Well, I don't disagree with you at all, that nutcases should not be allowed to purchase weapons- the problem comes down to the fact that in this liberally-inspired age of political correctness and privacy laws (HIPPA) regarding someone's mental state or condition, it's politically offensive to single this "poor, mentally ill person" out by exposing him to authorities that CAN regulate this kind of thing. Maybe instead of pushing for stricter gun laws, let's get rid of the laws that prohibit enforcing the guns laws we already have.
Oh, and I know that he could probably have obtained one illegally if that policy was different- it would however have made it more difficult for him, and maybe if his mental status was exposed, then someone may have been able to institutionalize him first. Of course the rights of the dangerous individual ALWAYS outweigh the public good in the liberal mind, right?
wrong. i think you are thinking of the national rifle association. they're the ones who are always trying to fight laws that would restrict gun ownership by convicted felons and others.
Prove that statement with a fact and not an opinion piece from some blog, please ?
from the violence policy center web site: "this changed in 1986 when a law backed by the nra took affect. the owners protection act expanded the program to allow felons convicted of gun crimes to obtain 'relief' ". the relief was the ability to buy a gun.
MissDee,
Your post doesn't make much sense. You have it exactly backwards.
The rights of the individual always outweigh the public good in the MIND OF THE NRA (not the mind of liberals).
I think you're suffering from what I call a case of "disleftia"- show me an NRA endorsement of people who are certifiably mentally ill owning guns?
The fact (yes fact, not fantasy) is that in this world, everyone's afraid of being politically incorrect, and so NO ONE stopped this killer from obtaining the weapons or the ammo, let alone locked him up.
It would violate his rights to prvacy and open anyone accusing him to being sued for some kind of personal and civil rights violation (of course that's dependent on your political affiliation- of course it's just fine if you're an african american woman who falsely accuses three college lacrosse players of rape and in the process ruin their lives, just, as long as you drag in Al Sharpton- then everything's just peachy)
This is a classic example of guns not killing people, it's people killing people. So why not try just letting the natural course of events take over instead of always looking at the singular and distorted ACLU view of things. Even the Vulcans from Star Trek have it right- "The needs of the many outweight the rights of the one nutcase"...
who said it was all right for anyone to be falsely accused of rape?
Crazy people should not be allowed to buy weapons. Violent felons should not be allowed to buy weapons.
I guess those laws are in place, but not enforced. It takes a VT tragedy to focus the public's mind on this,
The conservatives who think that their rights are infringed upon by those who would restrict gun ownership are simply wrong here.
<strong>Whose rights were violated by this violent evil thug who was well known to law enforcement?</strong>
People who are afflicted with mental problems should not be allowed to buy guns. Ammunition and ammo clips for guns should not be sold over the internet.
But whacko right wingers take the opposite tack: they think EVERYONE ought to be armed, so any crazy person with a gun can be shot down like a dog. How stupid is that?
Listen DeeDee, why not just keep the guns out of the hands of people who are known crazies and known criminals?
Part of it is the mentality of liberal do-gooders preventing him from being locked up in a mental institution where he, and many more like him belong. His psychological assessment of being dangerous to himself and others should have been more than enough for mental health authorities to have the discretion of not only preventing him from legally purchasing guns, but also taking him off the streets for as long as was deemed necessary.
Instead he was allowed to attend university to reach his"full potential" and all that liberal crap.
Your mentality of blaming liberals for everything. Whether or not it makes sense is frankly dumb. In every state I have ever lived in that IS the criteria for incarceration in an institution. As a liberal I agree that SHOULD be the criteria. I dont know anybody liberal or conservative that disagrees. As far as I can tell this isnt a partisan issue and shame on you for trying to make it one.
i thought i would post this, because i found this far more troubling than imus losing his sponsors. david g. savage in the los angeles times: "the u.s. supreme court refused monday to put stricter limits on racial slurs in the workplace, turning away an appeal from a black computer technician who was fired [for being disruptive] shortly after complaining that a white co-worker loudly described a pair of crime suspects [the d.c. snipers] as 'black monkeys in a cage'." "even if jordan were fired for complaining about the racist comment, his employer did not violate civil-rights law, a federal judge and the u.s. court of appeals said in dismissing his lawsuit." " 'no objectively reasonable person could have believed ibm's office was in the grips of a hostile work environment,' said judge paul niemeyer for the u.s. 4th circuit court of appeals [which split 5-5]." so you have a worker who is urged by ibm policy to report racist behavior and when he does is fired for "being disruptive". niemeyer, who seems unable to grasp the concept that you should not be punished for merely reporting what you see as offensive language, was appointed by poppy bush. so the next time anyone says that there is no difference between the democrats and republicans, remember this case.
A little off topic, but I feel one of the failings of the Media this week (hopefully to be covered as the shock of this tragedy fades) is to more fully examine why this one very sick individual was driven to commit this act. I believe in this case, this individual would have found a way to carry out his plans even if no guns were available. In 1927, 45 people were killed in a school in MI by a man with a bomb. There was something deep and darkly driving this young man, as there are with anyone who would violently attack another human with homicide as his aim. Outside of war time, remember that the two largest acts of violence/death on US soil were carried out without the use of firearms. We also need to recall that just a couple of months ago (or so) another deranged individual did go into a crowded venue and set about on a similar mission only to be cut short by a civilian (off duty out of town law enforcement officer) carrying a firearm of his own. When the hype and hyperbole are over, I sincerely hope that some good comes out of this, more than just a committee meeting to review and recommend. I hope there is a way that we can prevent incidents like this in the future, at least on this large a scale.
but you have to concede oscar, that the easiest way was to use guns. that's why he did it. i looked that 27 bombing up the other day because someone mentioned it. i knew nothing about it, but to do that much damage you would need a lot of explosives, which are not always easy to get. and you can run away from someone with a knife. but as i mentioned, i am not against private ownership of guns, i just think that you should have to show you are deserving of ownership. this is not 18th century america, with single shot pistols. not everyone gets a driver's license either.
While it may be true that in this case, guns were the easiest way for the "perp" to carry out his mission, I'm sure that even if he had been denied the right of gun ownership, he would have figured out another way to accomplish a similar deed. It may have involved less than 32 victims, but whatever was driving this young man would not have denied him his "fifteen minutes of fame (or noteriety, in this case)." The biggest tragedy here, from the information I have to date, is that he was not under care for his mental condition. The signals appear to have been there, someone(s) along the line, for whatever reason, failed to act appropriately. Explosives would have been harder to come up with, but imagine a crowded football stadium or basketball court next fall or winter if he were determined to complete his mission one way or another. There is enough information available on-line for him to have figured out a way and a means to have gone to a alternate plan. Would stricter gun laws have prevented a tragedy brought on be this particular individual? In my estimation, no. They may have delayed it or maybe even lessened the impact, but prevented? He could have ended his own life at any time, but he apparently was determined to create a disaster (for the lack of a better word) on his way out. Another real tragedy here is the news of so many wouldbe "copycats" around country the past several days. There is something dreadfully wrong in the culture that I just don't personally understand.
you're correct that he was determined to take as many people out with him as possible. but i still say guns made it easier for him. he might have been caught or stopped and searched going into a football game. as for the culture question, don't ask me. i don't think we can ever completely stop these things. they have been going on a long time. you had the university of texas killings in 1966. we can just make them harder to do.
Guns made things MUCH easier for Cho. Especially semi-automatic hand guns with large clips of hollow point bullets.
Bombs fail. They did in Columbine.
No one knows what would have happened if Cho had not been able to acquire these guns. Perhaps he would have tried bombing, or stabbing, or even suicide. It's all speculation.
Gun ownership did make this crime easier to commit. This was one individual among many that should not have had ownership of a gun, however it appears the observations made of this young man's mental state did not make it into public record and therefore was not available at background check time. Hollow point, Teflon coated bullets, those should not be available to the general public. They have no place in sport shooting, although I know hunters that carry pistols for protection from predators such as cougars and bears when legally hunting for deer, elk, etc would probably disagree with me. He may have been stopped in the scenario that I described above (post 9/11) but I go back to Oklahoma City where a mass killing took place without the benefit of firearms or even to the dreadful attacks on 9/11, again no firearms involved. This latest may have been stopped simply if the mental evaluation of this individual had been part of the public record when it came to background checks. There are so many ways a calculating killer can find to carry out his nefarious mission and I would have to say this killer was very calculating in setting up and performing his mission. While he apparently had mental problems, they certainly didn't diminish his mental capacity. This was one very sick individual, unfortunately, not the only walking the streets of this fine country.
I'm curious where you got your information about hollow points, because hollowpoints and other expanding bullets are in fact the most effective and safest types. for hunting
Non expanding, military style ammo is banned for hunting in most
(if not all) states.
But then again, the Second Amendment is not the "Hunting and Target" amendment, so I guess it doesn't matter much.
I would like to see the media stop conferring celebrity status on people like this, it seems to only serve as validation for those who seek fame or infamy. I don't want to know his name, his image, his message, nothing. I don't want his parents to fear for their lives. I don't want the sensationalism. I don't want to see the pain of friends and family. I don't want to see the blood.
I want to hear words of reconcilliation, forgiveness. I want people to consider the greater good. I want our nation to examine the uselessness of anger and to channel our energy into creating love and respect for each other.
Oscar,
Not to sound like I'm bragging or anything. But I go to one of those colleges where we had a copycat threat (Made me angry, it was the last physics lab of the semester and I really wanted to get it over with), so we are closed until Monday.
I too am a little disappointed that no one in the media is trying to figure out why this happened. Although I do know that colleges watch students for mental problems (since schizophrenia usually manifests around that age).
Perhaps once the shock is over someone will step up and really look into this event. But I can make some predictions about what is about to happen,
1. Anti-violent video game/movie fanatics will launch a campaign
2. The gun industry will close ranks and begin a NRA, pro-gun rights campaign.
3. Little or nothing will actually be done to help students (just look at Columbine and the after effects of that event, except for metal detectors in a few schools, not much. Everyone afterwards said they saw the signs, how about a programs to help teachers, administrators deal with students who display those signs? SOrry no money...). Ok done with rant :)
Physics, heh? Science or engineering future? It seems like when I studied physics, we were still debating whether the Earth or the Sun was the center of our planetary system. (Just kidding, I'm old, but not that old). Hopefully, next week will be a much better week than this one was for all the colleges/universities across the US.
The few hairs left on my head are pretty gray (just so you know that I'm coming from about 1 1/2 generations ahead you). Personal anecdote to try to make the point that there is some underlying dreadful current in our society. I was "picked on" in school, but I never gave a thought to expressing the anger over that in anything near what happened at VT. Most of us carried guns in our vehicles at school, usually a .22 or a shotgun, sometimes pistols, because we would often go bird or varmit hunting after school in the fall or spring. Guns were part of our culture, but they were not to be used for murder of a fellow human. That we were taught, that we believed. Whether it's because more of us are crowded into a smaller area (especially in the large urban areas of the nation) or the basic change in culture, I don't know. My wife works at a local liberal arts college and she often comments on the number of students being treated for depression. I don't recall that being a problem with me or my friends when we went to College (and the males were looking at Vietnam, etc). This case and a lot like them are deeper than a gun case or video game case or music case. There is something wrong in our culture (in my humble opinion). A lot of privacy issues that prevent needed information from being shared in way that may have prevented this particular tragedy, I don't know the answers but to simply blame it on a gun culture or to go to extremes to defend the gun culture will not solve this case or potential upcoming episodes.
Actually I'm really not that young myself. This is my second time around.
And although my major does include Science in its title, I don't need Physics. For political science you need 4 credits in science.
Well as far as the depression goes. I believe its two fold.
1. Its more diagnosed now, as people begin to know the symptoms
2. And there are a large number of individuals who suffer from what I call "Inability to Deal with Reality" syndrome. They get out of an environment where mom and dad do everything for you and feel so overwhelmed they cling to whatever ideal sickness can explain their feelings of terror. I see it at my school a lot, especially for those students who are total unprepared for life outside of home. (i.e. mommy and daddy told me I'm special all the time, but everyone else doesn't care about me.) Does that make sense?
And I don't blame it all on the gun culture. Its far more complicated than that. Although I do believe in some gun control, come to Michigan during deer season, some people should not have guns. (including vice presidents, ok had to throw that one in).
But there is a sickness, of sorts. I see it in people around me and in the news and even here. Its a general lack of hope. (try this thought on (I am "renting" this idea from a fellow student). "In an effort to combat progressive politics and policies, our government, its leaders and the vehicles that carry its messages to the people have created an environment that drains us all of hope........ As we can see through out history when combating the ideas of civil rights for u.s. citizens the favored tactic is to first dehumanize these individuals. If you are raised with such influences is it any wonder that we have seen such increases in hate crimes?"
Thats part of it, its a big paper and I can't quote it all here. But basically to sum it all up. We are reaching a point in society were we should hate everyone, but ourselves or at least consider them as less than others. That government and media have reduced us all to numbers and images instead of humans. That also we lack the social/family connections we once had (he called it tribal affiliations or something (sociology major) that would buffer us against such dehumanizing.
Well, Political Science is science.
I think you are on to something with your second point above. There are a lot of young people in college who have been pampered up until their upper class years as you state who are looking forward and realizing its about time to get out on their own and they for whatever feel unprepared. (Sorry for the long sentence).
There are also as you note a lot of people out in the woods that shouldn't be there which guns. I talked to a local guide several years ago and he noted one party that he took into the local mountains at that time had one small case of ammuntion and two large cases of alcohol (of a more potent variety than beer). It was the last time he took reservations from that group.
The social and political divides in this country seem to be growing larger all the time, and government (and the media) are doing very little to lessen those divides whether through rhetoric or example. But there are things that most of us could do as individuals. Most communities have programs (in our area it's "Friends") where responsible adults can interact with young people that miss the proper interaction at home. Tutoring programs, youth sports programs, Boy/Girls Scouts, etc. We can make a difference and we don't have to wait for someone else to do it for us. I coached Little League for twenty years and as far as I know only one or two kids from those teams had problems in their secondary schools years (and I spotted those early and tried to help, but was rebuffed by family).
Apparently, the roomates were not aware that he even had weapons. So maybe hiding explosives would have been somewhat more difficult? Also, buying a gun does not send off alarms like, buying 100's of pounds of fertilizer would.
Are you saying that there's a bona-fide "federal fertlizier permit" required to purchase 10 bags of 10-10-10 for my lawn? Oh, sorry. there is sort of a "fertlizer permit" issued by a nationwide agency- I think it's the membership card of the DNC...
carry on..
To the above, thank you very much. For no descrete reason. Just thanks.
Turning the Virginia Tech massacre into an example for proponents of gun ownership restrictions is jacking a tragedy to promote a political agenda. This is not a relevant argument, and sadly takes attention away from addressing the real cause of events like this in our society, which is our high tolerance for accepting insanity in our reality, and the reprehensible lack of funding and support for humans deeply afflicted with mental disease. The blame for this should be spread on both sides of the flawed, but accepted, model of two dimensional politics.
The right/conservatives deserve scorn for the Reagan era gutting of funding for mental health services. It has continued to this day, and is a primary cause of the rise in the numbers of American homeless. Homelessness in America has become ingrained in the public's mind, accepted as normal and pushed under the upper levels of consciousness; a librarian's dirty little secret.
The left/liberalism deserves it blame also for reactionary overrreach in response to past institutional abuses of some who suffered mental illness, which resulted in legislation making it virtually impossible to remove those who are truly psychotic from unsupervised interaction in society until they have committed egregious offense.
Gun Ownership is a valid societal concern, but it is not germane in this instance. To ignore the fact that our modern society allows individuals, who are transparently suffering from intense mental anguish brought about my a mental disorder, to interact with society unrestricted, and that this is why the massacre occurred, is an open invitation for more of the same in the future. There is no way to block the infinite methods for bringing chaos and mayhem into reality. Gun laws may have made Cho's actions easier, but it is laughable to claim that gun ownership restrictions would have prevented this tragedy.
Also, since the right to bear arms reaches into the realm of constitutionally protected natural rights, any changes must be precluded by a proper constitutional referendum to be considered legitimate. It does not matter if you believe the 'militia' based arguments of the 2nd amendment or not. What matters is that a significant population of American citizens believe in a protected right to possess firearms, that can only be lawfully restricted through super-majoritarian democratic processes. If the polling numbers expressed in this article are correct, there should be little problem in getting a Constitutional Amendment to limit the reach of the 2nd.
Anything less than this I would oppose, and not because I believe that the intent is necessarily wrong, but that the process is flawed, and that process, if allowed will result in the further degradation of the rights of humans by state overreach. This would be using the same illegitimate methods which were used by the 2006 Congress to eviscerate habeas corpus, The Constitution Notwithstanding.
To this I am compelled to stand and resist. Am I alone?" Is the Dream, American Liberty, now dead and gone?
I am not willing to equate Gun ownership with the American Dream. Having said that my experience is that Americans see gun ownership as a freedom issue. As long as that is so I dont support banning guns. Common sense restrictions are another thing. I dont know enough about guns to talk knowlegably about what those might be but would support reasonable restrictions, things like trigger locks, waiting periods, registration, backround checks all sound like good ideas to me but I have an open mind and am willing to listen to reasons they are not, as long as those reasons are not slippery slope arguments.
Solon, I believe you misunderstand, and believe or not, this matters to me.
I wholeheartedly would support a constitutional amendment which limited the reach of the second amendment, but I would consider any legislation towards the same goal in the absence of an amendment to be illegitimate, and a dangerous overreach of governmental control. I believe that the parts of the Military Commissions Act and FY 2007 Defense Appropriations bills out of Congress which limit the applicability of habeas corpus to be an unconstitutional overreach for the same reason.
I am aware of the arguments claiming that the second only applies to state sanctioned militias. I have not found them to be compelling. (See: Prof. Eugene Volokh, UCLA Law School , "The Commonplace Second Amendment", (73 NYU L. Rev. 793 (1998))
Tyranny, even for good intentions, must be resisted. If left unchained, it cannot be bounded by any force of the people. It will reach unto us all.
A people who believe their rights originated as gifts from a magnanimous state will never be free.
A system of law which has multiple standards of applicability can never be just.
A future in America in which we have not once again muzzled and restrained our leviathan, which in our understandable feelings of vengeance was loosed upon this world as rabid wolf among the sheep, will never know peace.
I know there is a great tangential drift in what I've just written, and if you are unable to perceive its germaneness in this thread, just consider the main part of what I stated previously regarding the real cause of the Virginia Tech massacre, which is not gun ownership, but our three monkey philosophy towards humans who are suffering from acute mental disease. Almost everyone who had encountered Cho at Virginia Tech, and has related this to the media, describes a human who was obviously very sick. Our society is to blame for this; it is our own lack of compassion that caused the circumstances which enabled its existence in reality.
We need to go to the mirror.
This was the main intent of my original post in this subthread.
will peace, friend - ark
to pretend that gun ownership is not germane to this tragedy is the thing that's laughable. whether he should have been more intensively treated is one issue, but he should not have been allowed to walk into a gun shop and purchase a gun, considering his previous interactions with authorities. and guys like you always claim that they will find some other way if they don't have a gun. but the fact is that we have multiple killings all the time and they almost always involve guns. it's because to the shooter they are readily accessible and effective. just claiming they will find some other way is speculation and not based on the reality of the situation. and when i see "libertarian" on any web site, i get a little cautious.
You react to what I've stated without reaching into yourself and asking why has our society become callous towards the weak, yet at the same time unwilling to face the brutal truth: we treat persons afflicted with acute psychosis in our society with less humaneness than we treat a rabid dog, that at least we put down as quickly and painlessly as conditions allow.
When vehicle is momentarily stopped in traffic, and you are approached by the chronically homeless, how do you respond? Do you avert your eyes? Do you ascribe ugly and slanderous personality traits to strangers you have never met, whose circumstances you cannot even begin to fathom? Do you think that you are blameless in an America which allows human severely incapacitated from mental disorders pitifully provide for their sustenance by begging from strangers? Do you upon your automobile's movement away from these humans, subsequently push all conscious thought of them below your consciousness? Are you unable to contemplate that rampant homelessness is a relatively new phenomenon and an artifact of the Reagan Presidency, which decided that Mental Health Services were an nonessential governmental concern?
Our society has grown far too tolerant of insanity in our midsts and accepts it as an inevitable fact of life. Add onto this legislation, which although was well-intentioned, hog ties mental health professionals' ability to effectively treat the illness, if in the throes of their madness, these persons refuse it. This is the cause of the massacre. Look for it in the dark abyss of inhumanity within your soul.
A factor I had not mentioned yet, but still needs to also be squarely faced is the implicit obscenity of our disparate relative valuation of human life predicated only upon citizenry. Mr. Bush, whose immoral War Upon Iraq is the cause of much more mayhem and death in a country with a much smaller base population is allowed to speak of the needless death and violence from this reprehensible event, and no major media outlet has the temerity to call him hypocrite for even appearing at the podium. This is just another example of America clinging to its three monkey ideology, they cover their eyes, plug their ears, and refuse to stand in resistance to death caused by tyranny of our own creation. At least some can still face the chaos storm, and speak truth.
You would push all of this off onto only the methodology used by a madman, and arrogantly refuse to contemplate any other means of bringing death into reality, which anyone possessing average intelligence and creativity, who is compelled by the fever dreams ravaging their mind could manage. Time to get Biblical up side of your head:
you don't know a damn thing about me to be making such assumptions. maybe you need to look at your own arrogance. and as for getting "biblical" on me, you will get exactly nowhere with me by trying to pass off those fairy tales as any kind of argument.
I understand your positions. I agree that we have insensatized our society. Whether Cho is part of the consequences of that is something I cant say. I disagree with your arguments for gun legislation. Emerson makes it clear NOT that only militias can have guns but that guns in the hands of individuals are NOT a second amendment right short of a militia purpose. Can you deny that while in the FIRST amendment the rights enumerated are made contingent on nothing saying only congress shall make no law infringing upon them yet qualifies the second saying a strong militia being necessary, if it were MEANT to be an unrestricted right it would have been easy enough to simply lump in with the other unrestricted rights of the first amendment. The idea that our rights dont come from the government is true to an extent. We have some rights by virtue of being human beings but if we aknowlege no restrictions from the government we are talking about anarchy. The rule of law is one of the things that distinguishes a civilized society. As I said I am not advocating banning guns. I do believe however that Congress has a right to enact the sort of restrictions I was talking about
thanks Solon, I presently am in need of refuge from the storms of my own past as chopper doc, and must remove myself from contemplating this (we all have defense mechanisms it seems). This war makes me age far too quickly, and i apologise for the intesity of my posts' content here.
Which Emerson are you referring too? Ralph Waldo came to mind, but not any specific work. Also, give Volokh a try, his investigation was thorough, and was not begun with his final analysis in mind. If we had a private channel, I'd point towards an elliptic assault upon the blog which carries his name, where I held my own, standing my ground against law profs, and spoke against tyranny. It might amuse you, but only received minimal accolades in that namespace. (last stanza)
Until the next time I need shelter, and my debt to you increases.
I meant the court case Emerson vs US
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=5th&navby=case&no=9910331cr0
Also Miller vs US. The point being the right is not an unqualified right as those enumerated in the first amendment are.
Solon, I'll give you one argument against registration.
The founding father's primary reason for guaranteeing civillian ownership of firearms was as a protection against internal tyranny (easily verified by studying what the founding fathers had to say, outside of the Constitution about civillian firearms ownership).
It's none of the government's business who owns guns and who doesn't. I know a lot of people here will argue that gun owners resistance to registration borders on paranoia, but given the current administration's disregard for entire bill of rights, it it wise to trust them with our guns?
Those durn'd CNN varmints!
All I can say that within NRA marketing offices, there must be a ton of self medication. I can picture that office the morning after the VTU, each publicity drone audibly sighing off a vicious hangover, starting yet again a memo to their propagandists (with money inside) to do their 'plaining yet again.
I think the NRA weaseled this round, as opposed to these guys.
A_R_K let me congratulate you on your shortest posting yet. (just joking).
It is interesting how by the end of the day we had individuals on TV making the claim that "well if one of the students was allowed to carry a gun in class, maybe they could have stopped him."
I heard that in 3-4 different interviews and a couple of posts here. That makes it seem a little too, uniform. Also given that each person said almost exactly the same thing. Anyone else get the memo?
Or as my husband just said over my shoulder....
"Its starting to sound like if you go to an NRA meeting you should skip the cool-aid."
Actually the NRA is interesting from a marketing/political stand point. In one of my P.S. classes we spent a few weeks analyzing the history and make up of the NRA. Some time take a look at it even if you hate the group. Its a great study of (lets put it in the most simple form) taking an idea and like a nail pounding it into a person's head. And from the marketing side, its nearly brilliant.
I recently heard 2 interesting things:
The federal government has a list of every single person that has ever been prescribed an anti-depressant. They do not have such a list for who owns a gun.
If you want to get anti-depressants, you need to see a doctor for a mental examination. If you want to get a gun, there is no such similar requirement. No felonies? You can have a gun.
And yet, as easy as it is to get a gun, the group of people in this country who are scared of having their guns taken away,just like those who are scared of having their religion taken away, are significant in swinging elections.
Wouldn't it be great if people voted based on freedoms that actually stand a chance of being taken away?
HBL what fantasy land do you live in?
People coming together to stand up for the rights of others. That's the same day Col Roy et all, picks a name not from Metal Gear and Jetter becomes a card carrying member of PETA and I support President Bush.
I was really quite impressed with some of the posts here, by both the progressives and conservatives, regarding gun control. These led me to mull over a few issues, namely:
Simple knee jerk attacks on gun ownership are not the answer to preventing another Virginia Tech like mass murder. At the same time, however, a reasoned discussion of gun control is certainly in order. I have never owned a gun and never will, but I believe responsible adults have the constitutional right to bear arms. But how far does that right go? What should be legitimately considered "arms" in this constitutional right? Automatic and semi-automatic weapons are, to my mind, WMDs for personal use. You can kill a lot of people with just one weapon. Indeed, if these are legal, then so should be grenades and other explosive weaponry, following the logic of the NRA. After all, these are "arms" even while they are not guns. Perhaps the debate should be how much death and destruction can a individual be legally permitted to perpetrate (at least potentially) before re-arming/reloading/resetting a weapon.
Furthermore, I find it ironic that the NRA and so many Americans become frenzied with outrage whenever *any* form of gun control is proposed yet are muted when other constitutional rights have been abbreviated or legislated into oblivion.
Many people here have mentioned that it is important we try to understand what *caused* the Virginia Tech shooter to be so deranged that he would want to kill many innocent people. This is the argument that guns don't kill, people do. True enough, perhaps. But, given current laws, for a young man like Cho it is easier to purchase a semi-automatic handgun than it is to buy a six-pack of beer.
The media provides us with many examples of deranged people killing others in a murderous rage. What differentiates them is the weapon they have at hand. A cold, calculating terrorist can use almost anything to murder many people but someone like Cho is limited to the weapons available to him. If semiautomatic guns weren't sold over the counter perhaps the tragedy at Virginia Tech would have been far less horrendous.
i agree with what you say. i have never owned a gun, but on the other hand i would never rule it out. i live in an urban area, but if i were to live in a largely rural area, i would consider it. to me it's a balance. i think what is also missing in this discussion is that he seemed to have used "hollow point" ammunition. it's used in hunting because the tip of the bullet spreads out and does more tissue damage than a regular bullet. the problem comes with the fact that they can be bought to use in handguns. they have been used in several mass killings and i don't think it's conjecture to say that there probably would have been less death and injury in this case. naturally the nra is all for them.
With Bill Moyers media special coming and a new prime example of If it bleeds it leads journalism form the profit minded news heads, we have a new attack of the freedom of the press. There is an insidious new postal rate plan written by Time Warner that is being considered by the Postal commission. " Basically large publishers would fare better ( they wrote this bill ) at the expense of smaller publishers ( think of the"East India Company" in the 1700's. The tax on tea for the colonists was higher than that the East India Company, and we know where that lead, a tea party in Boston harbor). " Here's a link with more information http://action.freepress.net/campaign/postal People need to understand what the age of enlightenment was and how it lead to the birth of our country. They would be less apt to follow some sly charlatan with a bag of cash and a fancy slogan. We would live in a better place. Education, it seems to be the key. This is a major issue, similar to "Net Neutrality", where the big guys get preference and the small guys take it in the shorts, thus choking the smaller publication, and then they will control all that we see and hear. see my cartoon on this topic at my website;www.whatnowtoons.com
I notice the media isn't doing a good job letting people now this: see video:
Virginia's Failure to Follow Federal Law Let Cho Buy Guns
In predicting there would be no change in gun laws, the right-wing media was simply saying what it wants to believe. Right wingers (i.e., gun nuts) always repeat what they want to believe, no matter what the facts.
During the 2004 election cycle, I wrote to CNN almost everyday to complain that they always referred to Bill Schneider as a "senior political analyst", rather than a "conservative political analyst." Read his bio and all you will see is a solid conservative background. He was an American Enterprise Institute fellow, etc. He would routinely do the Fox-style right wing slant on almost every comment.
I've been involved in the gun control debate for about fifteen years, and one of the things I find most frustrating is that it's the one area where the media seems to take no responsiblilty for printing factual information.
For examples from just the last few weeks,A writer for the L.A. Times (discussing Charles Whitman's shooting rampage) referenced that semi-automatic guns and declared that they were not available in 1966. He's about 30 years off, as the first hi-capacity semiauto handgun became available in 1935.
I've heard the media describe firearms that don't exist, i.e. "assault revolvers". I recently heard one Air America radio commentator declare that the assault weapons ban banned machine guns, which is not true at all they have been heavily regulated under the National Firearms Act of 1934, manufacture was banned completely for civllians in 1986).
Oscar the Grouch states on this thread that he supports banning hollowpoint bullets, and teflon coated bullets.Oscar, I'm assuming you read somewhere that hollowpoints are more deadly than regular bullets, or "cop killers". Fact is, hollowpoints are safer overall, because the penetrate less than solid bullets, and the chances of a bullet passing through a target, and hitting an innocent bystander are greatly reduced. There is no hollowpoint handgun bullet that can penetrate a police bullet=proof vest.Oscar, had you received the correct information on what hollow points are designed to do, I'd be willing to bet you'd be calling for laws mandating their use.
Whether you love guns or hate them, you should at least base that opinion on accurate information.When it comes to the gun debate (and I'm sure many other topics), I don't see much journalistic integrity in today's media.