"Media Matters"; by Jamison Foser
"We didn't have this kind of biography in the year
2000, and the country has suffered catastrophically, because they didn't know
who or what they were voting for in some instances."
-- Carl Bernstein, Paula Zahn Now,
6/7/06
BILL
O'REILLY: I have to tell you, I still don't know what to make of the woman even
after -- even after reading the book. That's how complicated this woman is.
CARL BERNSTEIN: That's terrific.
-- The O'Reilly Factor, 6/5/07
During his promotional tour for A Woman In Charge, his new biography of Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-NY), Carl Bernstein has repeatedly told us that biographies like his are essential to choosing a president. But Bernstein's biography of a presidential front-runner should make clear the dangers of picking a president based on biography rather than policies and accomplishments.
Bernstein spent seven years researching and writing what he -- and others -- have described as the most comprehensive, definitive biography of Hillary Clinton. And yet, as his book tour has made clear, he doesn't have the first clue who she is. If Carl Bernstein can be so confused after so many years of study, why should any of us think we really know candidates most of us will never even meet? Bernstein's confusion about Clinton may be the best argument there is for choosing a president based not on who we think they are (or, even worse, who the media tells us they are) but based on what they will do, what policies they support, what policies they oppose, what solutions they offer.
During media appearances promoting his book, Bernstein tells us again and again that a central point of his book is that Clinton is inauthentic; a chameleon who hides her true self. At least 15 times in his television interviews promoting A Woman In Charge, Bernstein has referred to Clinton's "authenticity" or lack thereof. Bernstein has referred to Clinton as "camouflaged" at least 13 more times.
As "evidence" of Clinton's purported lack of authenticity, Bernstein points repeatedly to two things that he accuses Clinton of keeping secret: her father's purported abusiveness and her failure to pass the District of Columbia bar exam prior to moving to Arkansas.
Bernstein began making the talk show rounds with a June 1 appearance on NBC's Today. Bernstein's very first substantive statement about the content of his book:
BERNSTEIN: Well, this is a woman who's led a camouflaged life and continues to. And this book takes away the camouflage from her childhood in an abusive family situation -- her father humiliated and abused her mother; her mother had a horror of a childhood ...
Later, during an appearance on NPR, Bernstein accused Clinton of creating in her books a "self-mythology" of an "idyllic kind of childhood":
BERNSTEIN: Well, certainly that's the case if you read Hillary Clinton's supposed autobiography, Living History. It's contrary to what my reporting concluded. It's contrary to what other journalists have found, by and large. It's self-invention. It's self-mythology. Occasionally, even often, there's a kind of baseline truthfulness, but you're going to have to go somewhere else to get a straight story about her life than her.
STEVE INSKEEP (Morning Edition host): Can you give me an example of a story that comes out several different ways in Hillary Clinton's telling and your telling, perhaps in other tellings?
BERNSTEIN: Well, let's just start with her childhood, which she describes in Living History as -- and in It Takes a Village as -- she had a Father Knows Best suburban, idyllic kind of childhood. In fact, her father was a deeply unsatisfied man, sour, unfulfilled, a martinet, used the rod on his children a little unsparingly, abused her mother.
So, according to Bernstein, Clinton's books presented a false tale of an idyllic childhood, when in fact, her father was unhappy and "used the rod on his children a little unsparingly."
But, contrary to his claims, Bernstein isn't blowing the lid off anything here; nor is he catching Clinton in a lie. Here's how Clinton described her father in her book, It Takes a Village, published more than a decade ago:
My father, not one to spare the rod, articulated and emphasized his expectations for us. ... Occasionally he got carried away when disciplining us, yelling louder or using more physical punishment, especially with my brothers than I thought was fair or necessary.
Ah, it's so clear: Clinton wrote that her father was "not one to spare the rod," when, in fact, according to Bernstein, her father "used the rod on his children a little unsparingly." She truly is a fraud, isn't she?
Clinton also described a sometimes harsh father in her autobiography, Living History:
My dad was a rock-ribbed, up-by-your-bootstraps, conservative Republican and proud of it. He was also tightfisted with money. [...] My father could not stand personal waste. Like so many who grew up in the Depression, his fear of poverty colored his life. My mother rarely bought new clothes, and she and I negotiated with him for weeks for special purchases, like a new dress for the prom. If one of my brothers or I forgot to screw the cap back on the toothpaste tube, my father threw it out the bathroom window. We would have to go outside, even in the snow, to search for it in the evergreen bushes in front of the house. [...] My brothers and I were required to do household chores without any expectation of an allowance. "I feed you, don't I?" Dad would say.
Later in Living History, Clinton added:
During my high school and college years, our relationship increasingly was defined either by silence, as I searched for something to say to him, or by arguments, which I often provoked, because I knew he would always engage with me over politics and culture - Vietnam, hippies, bra-burning feminists, Nixon. I also understood that even when he erupted at me, he admired my independence and accomplishments and loved me with all his heart. [...] I doubt anyone meeting my father or being on the receiving end of his caustic criticism would ever have imagined the tender love and advice he offered to buck me up, straighten me out, and keep going.
Bernstein also suggested to Today's Matt Lauer that, as part of her "camouflaged life," Clinton has kept secret her mother's own "horror of a childhood." Bernstein bragged that his book "takes away the camouflage." Yet right there on Page 2 of Living History, Hillary Clinton tells us:
I'm still amazed at how my mother emerged from her lonely early life as such an affectionate and levelheaded woman [...] In 1927, my mother's young parents finally got a divorce [...] Neither was willing to care for their children, so they sent their daughters from Chicago by train to live with their paternal grandparents [...] On the four-day journey, eight-year-old Dorothy was in charge of her three-year-old sister. My mother stayed in California for ten years, never seeing her mother and rarely seeing her father. Her grandfather [...] left the girls to his wife, Emma, a severe woman who wore black Victorian dresses and resented and ignored my mother except when enforcing her rigid house rules. [...] One Halloween, when she caught my mother trick-or-treating with school friends, Emma decided to confine her to her room for an entire year, except for the hours she was in school. She forbade my mother to eat at the kitchen table or linger in the front yard.
Again and again during his television appearances promoting his book, Bernstein points to what he claims is Hillary Clinton's false portrayal of an idyllic childhood. But Clinton's own books describe exactly the familial difficulties Bernstein claims to blow the lid off of.
Another of Bernstein's primary pieces of evidence that Clinton is inauthentic is that she kept her failure to pass the DC bar exam a secret. And how did Bernstein learn of the failure? He read about it in Clinton's book! In his own book, Bernstein writes: "Her closest friends and associates [...] were flabbergasted when she made the revelation in a single throwaway line in Living History." Despite having learned of the bar failure in Clinton's best-selling autobiography, Bernstein has repeatedly said on his book tour that Clinton's purported failure to disclose the failure for 30 years is evidence of her lack of authenticity -- suggesting that the failure is something Bernstein discovered on his own after careful sleuthing. In fact, he read it in her own book, leading us to wonder: If the fact that Clinton didn't previously discuss the failure is proof of inauthenticity, mustn't her disclosure of the failure in her autobiography be seen as evidence of her authenticity?
In his efforts to inflate the pedestrian story of Clinton's bar exam into something that reveals a window into her soul, Bernstein manages to confuse even himself. In his book, he wrote that Clinton's closest friends were "flabbergasted" to learn upon reading in Living History that she had failed the bar exam. But by the time Bernstein appeared on Today, the story had changed, and Bernstein told Lauer that "her friends were flabbergasted at" the bar failure "so that helped push her toward Arkansas."
Again and again, Bernstein tells us that Hillary Clinton is inauthentic because she kept secret her failure to pass the DC bar exam and her father's purported abusiveness. Whether those two things, if true, would in fact be evidence of a lack of authenticity is debatable at best. When you add in the fact that Bernstein learned both of those things from Hillary Clinton's own books, you have to wonder if there wasn't a better way Carl Bernstein could have spent those seven years.
Other evidence of Clinton's inauthenticity is in short supply during Bernstein's television appearances. On CNN, Paula Zahn quoted a passage from Bernstein's book that seemed to suggest that Clinton's faith is inauthentic -- but Bernstein quickly made clear that he does not believe that to be the case:
ZAHN: So, you write -- quote -- "There are people around her who believe she uses religion as a mask to cover her faults and those of Bill. The idea of loving the sinner and hating the sin, it allows her to excuse many things." Are you saying that you yourself don't think her faith is authentic?
BERNSTEIN: To -- to the contrary, I think her faith is absolutely authentic.
Oh.
In his television appearances, Bernstein has repeatedly suggested that Clinton may be an inauthentic feminist -- accusing Clinton of "savaging" women alleged to have had affairs with her husband which "raises a very interesting question about her feminism." Clinton, according to Bernstein, "had them ruined." Pressed to explain who, exactly, Clinton had "ruined" or "savaged," Bernstein is unspecific, but points as an example to her law firm's representation of some of the women. Bernstein explained further in his book -- though without using the words "savage" or "ruin":
Four weeks before election day, Larry Nichols, an ex-employee of the Arkansas Development Finance Authority, who had been fired for making almost 150 private phone calls to the Nicaragua contra leadership [Bernstein's wording doesn't make this clear, but Nichols stuck taxpayers with the tab for the calls], announced to the press that he had filed suit against Clinton, accusing him of using a "slush fund" as governor to conduct concealed affairs with five or more women. One was Gennifer Flowers.
The suit was an obvious attempt to damage Clinton not just in Arkansas, but in any future race for president. (Nichols was a surrogate for Clinton's opponent and longtime antagonist in the governor's race, Shef Nelson.) [...] At the behest of Betsey Wright and Hillary, Webb Hubbell and Vince Foster were then hired, by or through the campaign, to represent the women and obtain from the women their signed statements that they had never had sex with Bill Clinton. Some of the women were brought into an interview room to be questioned by Vince, Webb, and, on one occasion, Hillary. Two of the five women were prominent friends of Hillary and Bill -- both black -- and almost no one familiar with the case believes they were anything more than friends. But a line had been crossed, in appearance if nothing else: Hillary, or her law firm, or both were now acting as counsel to the women with whom her husband was accused of having illicit affairs.
That's it. According to Carl Bernstein's version, Hillary Clinton helped find legal representation for women who were falsely named in a politically motivated nuisance lawsuit. And based on this, Carl Bernstein questions Hillary Clinton's authenticity as a feminist.
Bernstein's televised explanations of Clinton's purported inauthenticity, however tortured, are admirably lucid compared to his take on whether Clinton broke the law. On Fox's O'Reilly Factor, Bernstein couldn't quite decide, taking five different positions in a span of only 64 words:
O'REILLY: Did she break the law?
BERNSTEIN: Yes.
O'REILLY: OK. Good, I like this. How did she break the law?
BERNSTEIN: She broke the law if, indeed, she perjured herself.
O'REILLY: Well, you just said she did break the law.
BERNSTEIN: No. The special prosecutor determined that she did not. So he did not file the charge.
O'REILLY: So you think she did. But the special prosecutor, Ken Starr, said no.
BERNSTEIN: That is co -- you know what? Let me be really straightforward. I don't think she broke the law. I think there was a time that she did not tell the truth.
BERNSTEIN: You know, I wasn't in the room.
As Bob Somerby explains, Bernstein's confusion is apparent in his book as well:
Bernstein discusses this incident [in which Hillary Clinton considered running for Governor in 1990] three different times -- and seems to explain it three different ways. On page 6, it's Hillary Clinton's anger and hurt which is said to have triggered thoughts of the run. On page 188, the Clintons are pictured working together, thinking about potential strategies for a Bill Clinton White House run. And on page 538, it's Bill Clinton's depression which seems to lie at the heart of this incident; Hillary Clinton "trifles" with the idea of running. Truth to tell, Bernstein seems to explain this episode three different ways.
The most telling moment of Bernstein's media blitz may have come during his appearance on CNN's Anderson Cooper 360:
COOPER: What surprised you most, then?
BERNSTEIN: How unknown the real Hillary really is and how nuanced and complex and contradictory within herself she is.
The biggest surprise for Carl Bernstein was finding out that Hillary Clinton is not a one-dimensional caricature of a person; that she is complex and nuanced. That she is "human," in other words. Bernstein's shock at finding this out tells us far more about him and his profession than it does about Clinton.
When Bernstein says that biography could have saved us from the "disaster of this last presidency," he couldn't be further from the truth. The 2000 campaign -- and subsequent contests -- didn't suffer from a lack of the kind of psycho-babble mind-reading Bernstein touts; that type of "analysis" has been all too common in the media's coverage of recent campaigns. Bernstein repeatedly refers to Clinton's purported lack of authenticity as one of the key things his book teaches us about her -- and one of the key questions we should consider before casting our vote. But fetishizing "authenticity" -- or, rather, the illusion of authenticity -- is nothing new. The news media's decision that George Bush was authentic, and the brown-polo-shirt-wearing Al Gore was not is, in large part, why we went to Iraq on inauthentic pretenses. Their decision that a man who had mislead the nation into war is authentic, and John Kerry is not is, in large part, why we remain in Iraq today. We don't need more of this ridiculous approach to the candidates, we need less.
As New York Times columnist Paul Krugman explained today:
You may not remember the presidential debate of Oct. 3, 2000, or how it was covered, but you should. It was one of the worst moments in an election marked by news media failure as serious, in its way, as the later failure to question Bush administration claims about Iraq.
Throughout that debate, George W. Bush made blatantly misleading statements, including some outright lies--for example, when he declared of his tax cut that ''the vast majority of the help goes to the people at the bottom end of the economic ladder.'' That should have told us, right then and there, that he was not a man to be trusted.
But few news reports pointed out the lie. Instead, many news analysts chose to critique the candidates' acting skills. Al Gore was declared the loser because he sighed and rolled his eyes -- failing to conceal his justified disgust at Mr. Bush's dishonesty. And that's how Mr. Bush got within chad-and-butterfly range of the presidency.
The problem with the Bernstein-style focus on personal biography and "authenticity" is not that "authenticity" is a bad thing, of course. The problem is that it's a catch-all for whether or not journalists like the candidates; it's that it is a completely subjective attribute, being measured by a group of people who have been spectacularly wrong in assessing it in recent years. Meanwhile, if reporters would just fact-check the verifiable claims candidates make -- such as Bush's claim about his tax cuts -- we'd have a far better understanding of which candidate is truthful than we do after reading endless columns about who wears brown pants and what that tells us about their relationship with their father.
Bernstein insists that having more "biography" in 2000 would have saved us from the results of the 2000 election. But the type of biography Bernstein has written about Clinton -- and the type he touts in his media appearances -- wouldn't have helped at all. Knowing more of George W. Bush's relationship with his father wouldn't have been nearly as useful as knowing about how he governed in Texas and how he behaved in his business career. Yet Bernstein, who devoted only a few pages to Hillary Clinton's Senate career, would presumably have given short shrift to the mundane details of how Bush ran one of the nation's most populous states.
As we speed toward another presidential election, Bernstein-style focus on personalities and speculation about "authenticity" is again carrying the day. The nation's leading news organizations devote more attention to the size of John Edwards' house than to Mitt Romney making a clearly false claim about one of the most basic elements of the United States' decision to invade Iraq.
Based on Bernstein's book tour, it seems he would have his colleagues tell us more about Edwards' house and less about Mitt Romney being either shockingly ignorant of the circumstances in which the United States went to war, or shockingly dishonest about them. If those are his priorities, we can only hope he spends the next seven years researching his next book, rather than actively covering the campaign. We anxiously await his 2014 expose of all the things Barack Obama cleverly kept secret by hiding them on page 12 of The Audacity of Hope.
















Damn, that is quite a write-up. There has been scandal and secrets surrounding the Clintons far too long. A marriage based on political aspirations, switching parties for the wrong reasons, smear tactics used to discredit women whom Bill had affairs with, unexplained deaths of friends and business acquaintances, and the list goes on. There is a Clinton machine out there, and it is powerful. Why did she run for Senator in NY? Why not Ark? Why couldn't Bill win in his own state? Why did they steal all those items from the White House? Why did Bill pardon all those crooks at the last minute? There is too much controversy.
I do not believe she is a woman of faith. I do not feel she should be president. I am still waiting to see her accomplishments. All I see in NY is higher taxes and dwindling towns. Buffalo is dying and nobody seems to care. It is still the same, upstate pays for the sins of the city, while the rich in the city sing praises to Hillary.
it's good to know that you agree with the facts put forth here, because you are unable to refute them. and u.s. senators do not set state tax policies. on planet wingnut everything can be explained by blaming it on the clintons. that does not make it true.
It is truly unfortunate when people have such limited reading comprehension skills but apparently unlimited time to disparage other people without (or contrary to) evidence. The "shoe" Mr. Foser carefully fitted to Bernstein seems to fit you equally well.
"INAUTHENTIC".
I met someone the other day, and I can draw no other conclusion that this person is inauthentic. WHY? Because I believe there may be some facts in their background that they did not reveal upon meeting me.
If a person does not reveal EVERYTHING, then they are "inauthentic."
This is how EASILY this "dig" can be applied ... everybody you THINK you know are actually inauthentic, including dear old MOM. Don't you know there are events in HER past she doesn't care to tell her children about? Things she did which she regrets, since this is a common experience ALL human beings have?
So, this damning charge of "inauthentic" ... especially as the basis of a BOOK ... is laughably shallow. It's as "revealing" as making the stunning revelation that the candidate actually has SKIN!!! Well, so does every other human being, but we're dishing political SCANDAL here, to influence an election, so the charges must seem sinester, revealing, and cause for alarm.
Balderdash; I'm greatly disappointed in Bernstein. To fall from Watergate to THIS level ... he may as well be drunk in a gutter, the way he has fallen.
Clinton is not near the top of my list for president but your regurgitating the shameful lies and half no quarter truths shows that your getting your information either from the GOP or Rush Limbaugh. I do know one thing for sure tho, Ken Starr spent about $70 million plus an unknown amount spent by Richard Mellon Scathe investigating the Clinton's and Starr had to admit, under oath, in front of the congress, cameras and the American people that specifically, one by one, each investigation was brought up and his answer was they found nothing. NOTHING! Now you can still claim that your not sure but I ask could you stand up to $70+ million dollar investigation and smear campaign? I didn't think so.
I'm sure the marketing guru who sold the GOP the "authenticity" meme was handsomely rewarded.
It has become so absurd that you would think people would stop buying it, but the sellers in the MSM continue to push it.
For example, and as a postscript to last weeks MediaMatters, this exchange between Howard Fineman and Chris Matthews on Hardball this week:
FINEMAN: He doesn’t — he looks like a guy who, if he had had the opportunity to grow up as a hunter, would have been a great one.
MATTHEWS: Yes.
FINEMAN: He just gives off the aura of a guy who wouldn’t be afraid to use a gun, you know? That’s just — and that’s the record that he had in New York.
I forgot to add that Fineman was talking about Guiliani.
I was thinking they were talking about Romney, actually. :D
Doughboy, you have regurgitated more debunked lies and stories than it's possible for you to really beleive, unless you are stupid, uninformed or hopelessly ignorant. If you want to read a good book (my guess is no) about the Clintons that details many of the insinuations and lies in your post, read Joe Conason's "The Hunting of the President". He goes into great detail. You are here to distract, start arguments or just troll. Don't think anyone here is going to buy it.
But this is a good article by Mr. Foser. A terrific job. I saw Bernstein on the Colbert Report. He thinks he should be defining Hillary more than Hillary should be defining herself as Stephen noted rather slyly. Gee, I wonder who knows Hillary and her family situation better - Bernstein or Hillary? Anybody who purports to know a person better than themselves is delusional at best. Even so he seems to admire Hillary.
I never claimed to "know" Hillary. I know what I have read and researched over the many years, even before she it was hinted that she was the real power behind the Clinton presidency. I have read plenty, and unlike you, have kept an open mind about it. From what I have read, the bad outweighs the good. Frankly, if you cannot refute facts such as items being taken from the White House, random pardons for criminals, or that some who have been close to the Clintons have either committed suicide or met with a strange demise, then don't refer to me as anything but a person who chooses to pursue information in non-traditional ways.
You are still using RNC lies. This stealing stuff from the white house was one of them. The suicide, murders are another. You obviously haven't done any research. You are regurgitating pap. At least if you're going to further propaganda, use some flair. We have all seen these ridiculous lies and you do yourself no good by repeating useless pablum.
"You are still using RNC lies. This stealing stuff from the white house was one of them."
Julia, you might want to find some new media sources.
From the Chicago Sun -Times, Feb 8, 2001 (one of many mainstream media articles that all say the same things):
"WASHINGTON Former President Bill Clinton and Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.) on Wednesday returned $28,000 worth of donated sofas, rugs and other furnishings they took when he left office. They acted because it was unclear whether the gifts were meant for them or the White House collection.
"As a result of the questions being asked, the property is being returned to government custody until such time that the issues can be resolved," said Jim McDaniel, the National Park Service's liaison to the White House. "It may well turn out that that property is rightly the personal property of the Clintons. I think those questions have yet to be resolved."
After they were criticized for taking $190,000 worth of china, flatware, rugs, televisions, sofas and other gifts with them when they left, the Clintons announced last week that they would pay for $86,000, or almost half the amount.
The latest decision to return about $28,000 worth of other gifts brings to $114,000 the value of items the Clintons have either decided to pay for, or return.
The Park Service and the White House Curator's Office took another look at the gift inventory after $28,000 worth of items the Clintons took were discovered on a list of donations given to the service for the 1993 White House redecoration project. The Washington Post quoted three donors this week as saying that the furnishings they gave were intended for the White House, not the Clintons."
Stop accusing people of repeating "lies" until you know the basics.
"one of many mainstream media articles that all say the same things":
Actually not all the articles say the "same things". For example your article fails to acknowledge that James E. Kennedy for Mr. Clinton's office remarked:
"that all the chairs, tables, rugs and other furnishings taken for their homes in Washington and Chappaqua, N.Y., had been registered as personal gifts by the White House gift office."
further
''Every item accepted by the Clintons was identified by the White House gift office as a gift to them,'' the statement said, adding that the administrative staff at the White House had ''reviewed each of the items against the official list of White House property to ensure every gift was properly handled; none of these items was on that list.''
Now the National Park Service handles donations which would be to the White House itself. These would be on a separaate list. Apparently some items were on both lists. No explanation for that was ever given.
The question of presidential gifts has been a bone of contention for 200 years. Jackie Kennedy "absconded" with 2 valuable antique tables. Millard Fillmore took a coach and six horses cashing them in after leaving the presidency. Ronald Reagan, after his two terms in office, left the White House with more than $1 million worth of dresses, jewelry, shoes and accessories (hopefully for Nancy). All of this stinks in my view and that is perhaps why Thomas Jefferson, John Tyler, and Andrew Johnson all instructed their families not to take any gifts.
All that notwithstanding nothing in this "giftgate" scandal rises to the level of criminality. "Theft" was the word Doughpro used and that is certainly not the right word, at least in a legal sense. The only issue was whether or not the gifts were personal or intended for the White House. The Clintons returned or reimbursed for any gifts where the intention of the donors was unclear to avoid the appearance of impropriety.
Actually not all the articles say the "same things". For example your article fails to acknowledge that James E. Kennedy for Mr. Clinton's office remarked:
Do I really have to point out to you that the reason the NYTimes chose this, umm, "source" is because it came from "Mr. Clinton's ofice"?
Apparently I do, lol. I don't care what Clinton's staff has to say about it, and the fact that you would use Clinton's own yes-men/women as a SOURCE is mind-boggling. The fact that the NYTimes would use this "source" is not at all surprising.
By the way, I don't think this was worthy of criminal charges, but the Clinton's obviously tried to get away with something.
As I said to some other numbnut about 4 posts below this one:
Theft of property? No...just two sleazy people who thought no one would notice if they snagged a few items on their way out the door. They were wrong.
No the New York times quoted him because that is what a journalist is supposed to do--present, as far as is reasonably possible, all sides of a story. In fact not to quote Kennedy would be bad journalism. What evidence do you have that Kennedy's assertion is false? None I would wager. If you do cough it up. Otherwise stop spinning. People who frequent this site (I am including you until you prove otherwise) should be given credit for the ability to weigh the evidence and make their own decisions. By the way to attack the source and not the position is nothing but a variation of the ad hominem argument, carries no logical weight whatsoever, but then you already knew that right?
Blue,
The problem is that while the NYTimes felt it necessary to let the Clinton machine spin it their way, YOU felt the need to use the spin as EVIDENCE.
You didn't add a qualifier like "keep in mind that this guy works for the Clintons, he's a paid spinmeister". You just wanted me to take what he said as evidence that they had done nothing wrong, which was rather lame of you.
what we both know:
-they took things that didn't belong to them
-they were asked to return or pay for these things
-they did
-no other presidents, umm, "accidentally borrowed", shall we say, White House property, and were forced to return them, as these two sleazy people did
Not a crime, sorta kinda...just sleazy, which for them is normal.
I asked you to cough up evidence (that Kennedy was lying or misrepresenting the facts) and you cough up a hairball. Was it spin?Maybe it was maybe it wasn't. You have presented no compelling evidence to support your claim. At very least it was the other side of the story--something a good journalist has a obligation to present. I certainly never claimed it was evidence of anything except that there is another side to the story. Obviously you want to have it your way. I am unconvinced by your arguments, they have been made and debunked multiple times. No other right thinking person who reads this exhchange will be convinced either. But of course you may think otherwise. And yes other presidents or their families have taken gifts or property with them when they left office--I gave a few examples above. Furthermore I took pains above to point out the difference between personal gifts (which the Clintons have every right to take when they leave office) and gifts intended for the White House. You just go on like there is no legitimate distinction to be made here. There is. Doughpro's accusation that the Clintons stole this property is baseless without specifics and some evidence to back up his assertion. They certainly did not steal their personal gifts.
Make no mistake--I am no fan of Clinton, although he may have been the best Republican president in modern history. Unfortunately he ran and held office as a Democrat. That is where the real lie is to be found.
This afternoon I painted a fence. I think I will go outside now and watch it dry. That should be a lot more interesting than spending my time doing this. Oh and by the way when you preface a remark you make with something like:
"As I said to some other numbnut about 4 posts below this one"
Sorry but it difficult to take you seriously. Enjoy the rest of your weekend.
The Clintons returned or reimbursed for any gifts where the intention of the donors was unclear to avoid the appearance of impropriety.
A bit too late to avoid that. At least you admit they, unlike every other first couple in U.S. history, were forced to pay for or return questionable items. Funny how they were the only ones sleazy enough to have this problem.
The only issue was whether or not the gifts were personal or intended for the White House.
Again, how come none of the other presidents made this mistake?
Par for their low-rent course.
because everything the clintons did was under the microscope for eight years.
Roger7, you may want to see Tex's post below. And while you're at it, you might want to read further in the posts before replying so as not to repeat things. Just sayin'.
Seriously dude, you are naive if you don't know that there was/is a well financed scandal industry with big time financiers to target the Clintons. Perhaps you're part of that industry. But no problem. I take with a truck load of salt anything you have to say. No amount of documentation is going to persuade you anyway, so I won't waste my time with you.
No amount of documentation is going to persuade you anyway, so I won't waste my time with you.
Sweet, I'm thrilled to know you won't talk to me again.
You might want to read these posts more carefully Julia, as I've made very clear no one broke the law imo. It was just typical of the Clintons to assume they could do as they please. No other president has done this when leaving the WH. It's no big deal, it never was, it's just more proof these people are arrogant and classless. So what? I would however bet the farm that if GHWBush had been forced to return tens of thousands of dollars in property that did not belong to them, you'd still today be referring to them as thieves.
a well financed scandal industry with big time financiers to target the Clintons.
Welcome to politics, newbie. Every modern admin will have this problem. Scaife and pals went after the Arkansas hillbillies, and now Soros and pals are going after Bush.
Get used to it, it's old news.
ken starr had 70 million dollars and several years to pin something criminal on the clintons. he couldn't.
The last thing Clinton did in office was accept a plea bargain. Sandy Burglar didn't take his plea bargain til recently.
How proud you must be...
if you want to consider that criminal go ahead. certainly legally wrong, but nothing like all the allegations made for eight years. and i'll ask again, are you going to be posting here in a couple weeks? because so many of you "disappear".
DOUGHPRO sets up a challenge; "If you cannot refute facts such as items being taken from the White House …”
What “items” were “taken” from the White House, and how should this affect one’s impression of the Clintons?
The original “vandal scandal” story that blazed and smeared, and then fizzled (because the original claims made were investigated, and found NOT TO BE TRUE):
http://archive.salon.com/politics/feature/2001/05/23/vandals/print.html
About a president departing with personal ‘gifts” …with some context of past presidential behavior:
http://archive.salon.com/politics/feature/2001/01/30/clinton/index.html
Here’s a Media Research Center account of the items taken from the White House by the Clintons. No friends of the Clintons, Brent Bozelle’s crowd can be depended upon to cast the Clintons in the worst possible light. Yet, here was their “conclusion”:
“Two former Internal Revenue Service commissioners, one a Republican and the other a Democrat, said that Clinton's taking the furnishings under such circumstances would appear to be an improper "conversion of government property" that could require the Clintons to pay taxes on them. They said they were not suggesting criminal wrongdoing by the President.”
http://www.mediaresearch.org/cyberalerts/2001/cyb20010206.asp
So, DoughPro, give us links to the DAMNING reports … conclusions, not on-going scandal-mongering and innuendo … which have cast the final outcome of this episode as showing the Clintons as being … well, YOU supply the adjective, because it’s YOUR non-scandal.
And please comment on the linked information about how much loot OTHER PAST presidents, like Reagan and GHW Bush, took without any outcry. (Maybe a mention of the “gift” 2.5 MILLION house Reagan received upon leaving the White House.)
You talk about “refuting facts”, DOUGH, so let’s HAVE some to refute. You supplied none. Oh, your hatred and unreasoning loathing for the Clintons is there, and your repeating of the suspicions, innuendoes and rightwing talking-point smears, and you MENTION the taken “gifts” as a major contributor to your attitude … but you haven’t given any CONTEXT or FACTS.
How was this sorted out that justifies your continued animocity? I’m dying to know.
A truly elegant refutation of this iteration of baseless charges, and a well-documented refutation as well. Superlative!
Tex felt it wasn't important to note that while "President George and Barbara Bush, pocketed $144,000 worth of gifts" (from the always objective Salon article...hey can I use Newsmax as a source? lol, I wouldn't dare...why not use Hillary's press agent as a source next time, Tex?), GHWBush and Barbara didn't take items earmarked specifically for the White House only to be told that they didn't belong to them and have to be told to return them.
Theft of property? No...just two sleazy people who thought no one would notice if they snagged a few items on their way out the door. They were wrong.
ROGER:
It's interesting that you cite "news coverage" of the Clintons as if it's particularly damning and indicative of "sleaze", yet you ADMIT that politics today (you cite Scaife and Soros) has changed how every little thing is perceived.
I don't think anyone would doubt that the beloved John Kennedy had many affairs, yet did he get the scrutiny that Bill Clinton got? No way in hell. There were different standards, different times.
Yet KNOWING this, you play both sides. You claim Clinton to be extra "sleazy", while dismissing past presidents doing the EXACT SAME THING because they weren't forced to "return or pay" for the items they took. Well DUH! If "the times" didn't create a scandal around their behavior, they wouldn't HAVE to respond. Right?
You obviously have no interest in such things as context, historical comparisons, fairness, or actual FACTS (such as the repeated findings, after extensive investigations, of NO CRIMINAL ACTIVITY FOUND about the Clintons). Instead, you simply wish to continue smearing them using the same phony scandal allegations the Rightwing ginned up over their eight years in office (all of which failed).
So, we'll just agree on a couple of realities: YOU think the Clintons "sleazy", and I personally find YOU and your methods to be sleazy. No harm done either instance.
You claim Clinton to be extra "sleazy", while dismissing past presidents doing the EXACT SAME THING because they weren't forced to "return or pay" for the items they took.
Learn to read, Tex. No other first couple did what they did to my knowledge: they took items that did not belong to them; they were told they had to pay for them or return them; they paid for or returned said items.
Other presidents of course paid for items but unless I'm mistaken they knew in advance they had to pay for them, and did so before they left office, having followed protocol. When you find examples of another prez who was forced to return items to the WH, please let me know. I will at that point type "oops, I was wrong", and then you and all the other insanely insecure lefties who post here will declare victory (thanks in advance for the laughs) and then we can move the hell on.
The lengths to which you people will go to avoid admitting that any lefty in the universe has ever done anything wrong is really disturbing. If you don't like the fact that I find the Clintons sleazy, you'll just have to get over that.
Good thing I didn't mention how Al Gore used his sister's death for votes at their convention years ago, that would've really set you off eh?. He was so very brave to tell that story in prime time as the nation weeped with him just weeks before a national election. Oh how my heartstrings ache when I just think of the courage he displayed by telling the story of his sister's tragic death from tobacco-related cancer while refusing to tell anyone that he had accepted quite a bit of big tobacco money as late as 1990.
But hey, maybe we just have different definitions of sleazy.
ROGER:
I'll make it simple. It's OK for you to attribute any quality or characteristic to the Clintons ... or anyone else ... that you choose to. It is your right to judge based on anything, or nothing at all.
It is NOT OK for you to pretend your "reasons" for making a character determination are VALID, particularly when you are relying on Rightwing partisan smears that have been debunked. THEN, you will be corrected, so that it is clear that yours is an unreasoning hatred, a personal hangup, rather than something based in reality.
That's all, ROGER. This phony "gift theft" charge has been debunked, along with the phony "vandalism", the phony "Whitewater", the phony "Travel Office", and all the OTHER phony baseless Rightwing smear attempts against the Clintons. Despite these allegations being thoroughly investigated and led to serial conclusions that the Clintons did NOTHING WRONG, you continue to cling to the completely discredited smears as if they were true.
This is your right: to be oblivious to reality, and to engage your EMOTIONS ALONE to dislike people, baselessly, to live in a fantasy world where you believe your FEELINGS ALONE matter.
It's OK to be purely emotional, ROGER, and it's even OK to hate ... although this harms only YOU, while doing no harm to the objects of you hatred. But, do not attempt to JUSTIFY your hatred with LIES ... it won't work here. It's enough just to share your FEELINGS ... that you consider someone "sleazy" or whatever ... but when you seek to try to present "evidence" ... you embarrass yourself. Further.
You're a psychologist's dream.
Go.
Seek.
Heal.
(Since you're WAY too ANGRY to get my point, which I THOUGHT I made CLEAR with (HINT HINT!) phrases like "NO BIG DEAL" and "NOT A CRIME", I'll just close my part of THIS thread by saying that it's ALWAYS the people who use CAPS as INCREDIBLY often as YOU do who are the MOST unhinged people online, even they they TRY to pretend it's really all the OTHER people who are so VERY angry while THEY themselves give their FRAGILE emotional state away EVERY time they post.)
So you've avoided the neocon,conservatve,right wing information network and arrived at a very close parallel to their position/attitude.
Evidence of philisophical parallel evolution by golly.
There was a wee laddie called Dough
He's a baker or a Wall Street pro
But whatever he is
Arguments from him fizz
Leaving laddie just nowhere to go
(Yawn) very clever. It is so easy to call names and to call someone a liar. It is a little silly, though, when the evidence is to the contrary. I don't care who disputes the goings-on, the facts remain the same.
If I am just regurgitating rightwing propaganda, why do you attempt to refute is so harshly? If we are all to be so suspicious of everything we read and hear, how do we come to what is really the truth? Can expect some witty, comical response about being detached from reality now?
You're conjecturing. You've been caught out. Repeating propaganda doesn't make it true, and I'm not here to prove a negative. If you have hard facts, cough them up.
And I'm done swatting flies, child.
When you spew out hateful GOP propaganda, you will be responded to . There was no name calling or whatever by Julia. As Harry Truman used to say, "if you can not take the heat get out of the Kitchen".
Yea, except for the part at which Julia made it very clear that he can't believe what he wrote unless he is "stupid, uninformed or hopelessly ignorant", there was no name-calling at all.
Roger7, you neglect to mention that I said "if". I doubt any sane person could beleive all that right wing pap but they just repeat it anyway. Now did I just call you insane? Maybe. Ha.
Doughboy, you have regurgitated more debunked lies and stories than it's possible for you to really beleive, unless you are stupid, uninformed or hopelessly ignorant.
I don't see the word "if" in there at all. The only "if" in the whole post is here in the next sentence: "If you want to read a good book (my guess is no)".
Right, since only people as sophisticated as you are read books. Why must lefties always look down their arrogant noses at everyone?
We've had only TWO Democrats elected to the White House in the last forty freaking years, yet they still seem to think they're God's gift to intellect.
D'oh, the answer to your question is VERY simple. People will start taking your allegations seriously when you provide strong evidence. Until then, they will object to slander, libel, defamation, etc.
When you took all the evidence of Clintonian wrongdoing to your local sheriff, did he give you a reward and rush right out to slap some handcuffs on the perps?
Speaking of reward, maybe you should take a tip from Larry Flynt and offer a $1 million reward for evidence of wrongdoing of your choice. I'm afraid that if you actually had that money to put on the table, though, you'd be far more likely to take down one of your beloved right wingers.
With profuse apologies to the Mistress of Limerick, this humble contribution:
Little Dougie has serious pain
He got smacked down by Juliajayne
With a tear in his eye
He continues to lie
For the truth always makes him insane.
Blueneck, no apologies necessary. That was one badboy of a LIMERICK. Well done, sir.
Foser does Foser and MMFA proud!
Too bad Bernstein couldn't, in seven years, capture as much truth as Foser does weekly in seven days.
The travesty is the tour. Bestein is given multiple platforms upon which to peddle his piddle.
"Bernstein's confusion about Clinton may be the best argument there is for choosing a president based not on who we think they are... but based on what they will do, what policies they support, what policies they oppose, what solutions they offer."
Whoa, that's the most anti-Hillary statement Media Matters has ever made. Because, really, when you look at what Hillary has stood for, we can expect many more years of entanglement in the Middle East. I would think that any book that took the focus OFF of Hillary's real positions would be of benefit to her, because God knows, any time the discussion turns to the real world and Iraq, she is exposed and vulnerable.
Some examples Dumbo? On discussions ernestly mounted on the real world (all of it or a descrite part?) Iraq and Ms. Clinton's faulty responses therein. Points if you can tie in cabbages and kings. Love the ears.
And Jamison hits ANOTHER home run! MMFA, you guys are the best, you do a fantastic job.
Just a question for any who 1) Care 2) Were involved in this thread over the weekend:
Did we lose a host of comments? Pretty sure there was an extended discussion of "conservatives in broadcast media" that isn't here now. Maybe flagged as OT?