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"Media Matters"; by Jamison Foser

August 24, 2007 8:28 pm ET

Constitutional Calvinball in California

In the comic strip Calvin & Hobbes, a 6-year-old named Calvin and his stuffed tiger, Hobbes, regularly play a game called Calvinball, in which the players make up the rules as they go along. According to Calvin, "The only permanent rule in Calvinball is that you can't play it the same way twice." Players alter rules throughout the game in a constant effort to gain an advantage.

The game, Calvin once observed, "lends itself to certain abuses."

Some similar abuses may play out in California in the coming months.

The current national political landscape appears to be something less than hospitable for Republicans. For example, as Open Left's Chris Bowers noted this week, state-by-state polling suggests that if the presidential election were held today, the Democratic front-runner would easily defeat either of the two leading Republicans, winning 335 electoral votes against Rudy Giuliani and a whopping 430 against Mitt Romney. The biggest electoral prize, California, has 54 of the 270 electoral votes necessary to win; the Democratic candidate has carried California in the past four presidential elections, and seems likely to do so in 2008.

But Republican operatives have launched an effort to declare a new rule in the middle of the contest -- a rule that, conveniently, would give their party a tremendous advantage.

Thomas Hiltachk, a lawyer at the firm that represents the California Republican Party, has written a ballot initiative that, if successful, would divide California's electoral votes between the candidates, awarding one electoral vote for each congressional district won, plus two more electoral votes for carrying the state. The likely impact of such a change would be to give the Republican presidential nominee about 20 more electoral votes and the Democratic nominee about 20 fewer -- more than enough to decide the election, and enough that the Democrat would need to win Ohio in addition to all of the states John Kerry won just to break even.

What makes the plan particularly devious is that it would affect only California. A sizable number of electoral votes would be shifted from the Democratic candidate to the Republican candidate -- but large Republican-leaning states like Texas would continue to award all of their electoral votes to the statewide winner. In short, in the largest Democratic-leaning state, the new system would award a significant number of electoral votes to the loser of the state, while the largest Republican-leaning states would continue to award all of their votes to the winner.

Perhaps worst of all, California voters won't even decide on the initiative until next June, yet the change would take effect for the 2008 presidential election. If the Republican operatives get their way, the rules of the 2008 presidential election will undergo a dramatic change, to the benefit of the Republican candidate, just five months before Election Day, and after the parties and candidates have spent years basing their strategic planning on the old rules.

There are, in short, very few things more significant to the outcome of next year's presidential election than this California ballot initiative. It is, then, vitally important that the media thoroughly, accurately, and fairly cover this fight -- and not just the California media -- the national media as well. The initiative may appear only on the California ballot, but it will impact the entire nation, and the campaigns for and against it will no doubt be waged with the help of national donors, activists, and operatives.

The initiative is beginning to draw significant media attention, but much of that coverage has been lacking.

In California, The Sacramento Bee's Dan Walters -- whose column runs in more than 50 California newspapers and who is the founding editor of the California Political Almanac -- has declared the GOP proposal to be a "fairer" approach than a competing proposal that would award all of California's electoral votes to the candidate who won the most votes nationwide. Walters wrote of that competing proposal: "It is, however, a flawed approach at best and could result in all of California's votes being cast for someone that the state's voters had rejected. If the electoral system is undemocratically flawed, it should be dumped and we should go to straight popular vote."

But Walters left out a key element of the competing proposal, and in doing so badly misled his readers. The proposal would take effect only if California was joined by enough states to total 270 electoral votes, which would guarantee that the winner of the national popular vote was elected president. In effect, it does dump the Electoral College in favor of "straight popular vote" -- precisely what Walters complained it does not do. Yet Walters declared the Republican scheme to be "fairer" than both the alternative proposal and the current system.

Let's recap:

Current system: California awards its electoral votes to the candidate most Californians vote for. California uses the same rules as 47 other states. It conducts the 2008 election under the rules that have been in place since the beginning of the election cycle -- and, indeed, since California became a state.

GOP proposal: California's electoral votes would be divided among the candidates. The state uses a system that is different than that of 47 other states. California abruptly changes the rules just five months before Election Day.

Alternate proposal: California awards all of its electoral votes to candidate who garners the most votes nationwide -- but only if it is joined by enough other states to total 270 votes. Otherwise, California proceeds under the current system.

Dan Walters thinks the GOP proposal is the most fair of the three.

CNN senior political analyst Bill Schneider agreed this week, declaring that "[d]ividing the state's electoral votes sounds fairer" than the current system. "Sounds fairer" is such a subjective statement that it seems odd to declare it "wrong." But it's wrong. Very wrong.

It "sounds fairer" only if you think that a last-minute rule change that affects only the largest Democratic-leaning state, and does so in a way that benefits Republicans, "sounds fair." Such a unilateral change is self-evidently unfair.

And yet, as Schneider noted, the Field Poll "shows California voters inclined to pass the measure." In support of his statement, CNN ran a graphic showing that the poll found that 47 percent of California voters favor the initiative, while 35 percent oppose it.

That very same poll included another question in which respondents were told that the change would likely result in Republicans winning some of California's electoral votes. That question found a narrower margin in favor of the proposal. Having declared that the initiative "sounds fairer" than the current system, Schneider cherry-picked polling data to validate his position. That doesn't sound particularly fair, does it?

The approach Walters and Schneider have taken -- flatly declaring a transparently unfair proposal to be fair, while offering misleading and incomplete reports that buttress that contention -- is obviously less than ideal.

Instead, journalists should substantively address several key elements of the initiative battle:

Effect on California's influence: With 54 electoral votes, California currently has 21 more than any other state, and the largest say in presidential elections -- a fitting distinction for the state with, by far, the most residents. Under the GOP scheme, the candidate who wins California would likely get about 15 more electoral votes than the loser, making the state's net impact roughly equal to that of New Jersey -- and less than half that of Texas, which has nearly 15 million fewer residents.

Changing the rules mid-campaign: Even California's Republican governor, Arnold Schwarzenegger, has acknowledged the unfairness of changing the election rules five months before Election Day. Schwarzenegger has said of the GOP vote-splitting scheme: "In principle, I don't like to change the rules in the middle of the game."

Effect on presidential election process: California unilaterally dividing its electoral votes would have the effect of making it more likely that the candidate who gets fewer votes in California becomes president. That is not conjecture; it is inherent to the plan, and it should be made clear in news reports.

Reform alternatives: The current Electoral College system has detractors at both ends of the ideological spectrum. One reason is obvious: In 2000, the Republican presidential candidate became president despite losing the national popular vote; four years later, the Democratic candidate nearly became president despite losing the national popular vote. News reports should make clear that there are reform proposals that would ensure that the winner of the national popular vote becomes president, without diluting California's influence or rigging the system in favor of the candidate who receives fewer votes from Californians. (As usual, Fox News provides useful examples of how not to handle the situation -- the cable channel this week identified one of the operatives behind the GOP scheme as "pro-reform" and falsely reported that alternative proposals would "protect the current process.")

Partisan backers: News reports should be precise and neutral in describing those behind the GOP ballot initiative. "Reformers" is not an appropriate term, as that suggests the initiative is a good thing and is being done for altruistic reasons. The backers are Republicans and should be described as such. In addition to Hiltachk, those behind the initiative include Marty Wilson, a Republican political operative who is a member of John McCain's California Finance Committee, and GOP strategist Kevin Eckery.

Enterprising reporters might also report that this is merely the latest in a series of Calvinball tactics by the conservatives. Marty Wilson's dual involvement in both the electoral vote initiative and John McCain's presidential campaign not only provides evidence for the notion that the initiative is little more than a cynical ploy to rig the election, it also serves as a reminder of McCain's history of trying to change campaign rules in ways that seemed to benefit him. In March of 2006, I detailed McCain's history of promoting campaign finance "reforms," some of which seemed to contradict each other, but which were consistently seen as benefiting Republicans.

Then there's Tom DeLay's re-redistricting effort, in which Texas Republicans, unsatisfied with the results of the first redistricting after the 2000 census, forced through an unusual second redistricting plan in an effort to gain more congressional seats.

And who can forget the contested 2000 election, in which Republicans argued against counting all legally cast ballots for which the voter's intention could be determined -- but successfully argued in favor of counting absentee ballots that were assumed to contain more votes for George W. Bush, but which were received after the legal deadline? That election was resolved in Bush's favor as a result of a quintessential Calvinball maneuver -- the Supreme Court, in a 5-4 decision, declared Bush the winner, but insisted that its ruling did not constitute a precedent.

Remember: "The only permanent rule in Calvinball is that you can't play it the same way twice."

There is a widespread belief that America is in urgent need of changes in the way we conduct elections, if not consensus about what those changes should be. Elimination of the Electoral College, public financing of elections, an elimination of contribution limits in favor of immediate disclosure of donors, and countless other proposals have support from a diverse array of Americans. Some of those proposals might, if enacted, actually lead to a more representative and responsive government.

But there is real danger in impetuously changing the way we choose presidents, particularly if the changes in question are more likely to produce partisan advantage than structural fairness.

California's fight over allotting electoral votes is a gravely serious matter and must be treated as such by the media. A change such as that being promoted in California has the potential to, all by itself, determine the victor of the 2008 presidential election. Such a change should only be made after careful consideration of all relevant factors -- the effect the change would have on California's influence, the presidential election system as a whole, the timing of the change, and the motives of those on each side of the debate.

These questions demand serious, thorough treatment by the media, not superficial declarations that something "sounds fair" or that one side is "pro-reform."

Expand All Expand 1st Level Collapse All Add Comment
    • Author by mefirst (August 24, 2007 8:30 pm ET)
         

      it's all or nothing, every state or none.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by mefirst (August 24, 2007 8:43 pm ET)
           

        and read the "in favor" link above about how the republicans pressured election boards in pro-bush counties in florida to accept any and all ballots, many of which clearly did not meet any legal standard.  oh, but the republicans wouldn't try to cheat, would they?   well, they paid a firm to jam democratic ride to the poll lines in the new hampshire senate race in 2002.  then the r.n.c. paid the million dollar legal bills of the their new england chairman.  

        Report Abuse
      • Author by tex (August 24, 2007 9:16 pm ET)
           

        So, if Florida had this law of awarding all electoral votes to the candidate who was winning nationwide, IF it woud "put him over the top" of 270 votes, then Florida in 2000 would have automatically been awarded to Al Gore.

        I take it Florida is NOT about to enact a similar scheme?  

        Report Abuse
        • Author by carlileb5935 (August 25, 2007 3:59 am ET)
             

          One thing that's not being mentioned-- this split vote by initiative is blatantly unconstitutional. Article II, Section 1.2 clearly gives state legislatures the authority to choose electors-- nobody else.

          So watch a Constitutional showdown where SCOTUS again gets butchered by the Republican courts. 

          I wouldn't worry too much. California is a HUGELY Democratic state now, and people haven't learned yet what this proposal is all about. When they do, it won't win. 

          And here's a little secret: nobody here watches the news. The Dems are too busy working.

          Report Abuse
          • Author by Dem02020 (August 25, 2007 12:57 pm ET)
               

            That's right.

            Are those people in California, who are opposed to having their Electoral Vote apportioned by District, making that argument?

            The argument that only the State Legislature "may direct... in such Manner" how that State "shall appoint... a Number of Electors"?

            And that part of the U.S. Constitution is not Amended nor superceded at all, by anything that has since followed it.

            That's more than a valid argument, it seems rock solid case closed sorry Charlie maybe next time...

            It seems to turn the "initiative" into a non-binding referendum at best, that could only express the will of the Electorate to have the California State Assembly apportion California's Electoral Vote.

            Because yes, the U.S. Constitution mandates it must be them anyway, that directs in what manner their State appoints it's Electors.

             

            Wow, this seems to render the whole argument flat, and just another item in the 'Finished Business' file.

             

            Now we can move on to the terribly misguided notion, of choosing our president by way of a "national popular vote".

             

             

            Report Abuse
            • Author by mefirst (August 25, 2007 6:55 pm ET)
                 

              why would a national popular vote for president be misguided?  it was not until the 20th century that there was direct election of senators, but i don't think many see that as misguided.

              Report Abuse
              • Author by mefirst (August 25, 2007 7:02 pm ET)
                   

                never mind, i saw it below.  but if the reason is widespread fraud to the extent you describe, then i think that would become evident.

                Report Abuse
                • Author by Dem02020 (August 25, 2007 8:25 pm ET)
                     

                  Did they and their many hacks and minions (including several SCOTUS Justices) care in the least, how it appeared when they stole the 2000 election?

                  Did they care that people were pointing out publicly that they were FALSIFYING intelligence to compel an invasion of Iraq (even way back then, by Joseph Wilson for example)?

                  Did Bush care how it appeared when he commuted the sentence of Cheney's former right-hand man, convicted of Perjury and Obstruction of Justice, in an investigation of the Bush/Cheney administration?

                  Does George W. Bush give a damn that his approval ratings are a record low, for what seems years now?

                  Does Cheney care at all, that his numbers are so low with the American People, that cavities poison ivy and O.J. Simpson are more popular and well-liked than him? The answer to all those questions is a big fat NO... as long as they get what they want, and control enough if not all of the Law enforcement Departments and Agencies of our Federal Government, so as to be sure to go unconvicted uncharged and uninvestigated, what do they care about appearances? Or about what people think?

                  That they'd stuff the ballot boxes like crazy, if the prize for winning a "national popular vote" were a near absolute control of the Federal Government, with all of it's Departments and Agencies (such as the DOJ and the CIA and the DOD), in addition to Commanding the U.S. Armed Forces... It's a prize so valuable (the most powerful Office the world knows) that those who would seize it, couldn't care less about appearances, or what people think.We're veterans of 6 years of a Bush/Cheney administration. As for what we might think we could do, in the event of there being a "national popular vote" to elect our President, and of there being an attempt to inflate (even wildly and obviously) the "popular vote" reports, out of say for example Texas... what we could do about it is nothing.

                  If you do not live in the State of Texas, then you have no authority or jurisdiction in that State; you'd have no rights of inquiry, nor even any right to seek a court order or other court action or hearing.

                  We might think the Federal Government itself then, to oversee the integrity of the casting and counting of ballots, in say Texas...What Federal Government, the one in limbo (a DOJ in limbo) between administrations?

                  Or perhaps the Bush administration's Federal Government, certifying the integrity of a "national popular vote" in the 2004 election? It's a nightmare, however you look at it; and even if you somehow believe there is some authority strong enough, to certify the integrity of a "national popular vote", and in particular the "popular vote" being reported out of, say Texas...

                  In Texas they would fight that authority, whatever or whoever it was, to the death, in defending their wildly exaggerated "popular vote" claims, in a "national popular election" of the President...

                  ...and they wouldn't give a squat what appearances it had, or what people thought (no more than Bush and Cheney care about those things), because the prize and the power and the wealth, is that great. 

                  The Founding Fathers knew all this, and anticipated such a nightmare, were we to foolishly have a "national popular election" for President.

                  And so they came up with the "Electoral College", whereby in any State, such as Texas, they can stuff the ballot boxes crazy, and report "popular vote" numbers twice and three times and ten times what they actually were...

                  ...and who would care and so what: They only get an Electoral Vote, equal to their representation in Congress; in the case of Texas, that's 34 Electoral Votes and no more, despite whatever wild claims of a "popular vote" they'd make.

                  And we can still have that kind of stuffing of the ballot box, and fluffing up of the "popular vote", in any State's election of the President...

                  ...but all they'd be doing is stealing those 34 Electoral Votes, from other Texans (like "Texans For KERRY"), which would never net them more than 34 Electoral Votes, and would then motivate those Texans to guard their own election... them being Texans, they can do that, in Texas.

                   

                  The “Electoral College”: It’s not just a good idea, it’s the Law! (For 200 uninterrupted years now… this year, this summer, this day!)

                   

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by mefirst (August 25, 2007 9:32 pm ET)
                       

                    actually, i would favor national laws that would mandate reviews in random precincts.  and this link discusses the disproportionate power of a voter in a small state over a large state.  [and you can say that about the senate, but there are 100 senators vs. one very powerful chief executive.]  

                    http://www.bennahum.com/david/2004/09/abolishing_the_.html

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by Dem02020 (August 25, 2007 10:51 pm ET)
                         

                      I read the page you linked to, but none of the many pages that linked from there.

                      Mr. Bennahum's argument is singular: The 538 Electoral Votes are not uniformly representative of the People whose Electoral Votes they are...

                      Which is to say (I'm sure you already know), that those People in smaller States are better represented in the Electoral College than those in bigger States: The 10 smallest States representing just 2% of the American People, yet casting 6% of the Electoral Vote.

                      That's true.

                      But isn't that an argument for making the Electoral Votes throughout the United States, more uniformly representative of the People whose Electoral Votes they are? 

                      Why is that an argument for "abolishing the Electoral College"?

                      (That being the title to what I read, written by Mr. Bennahum; and I mention again, he made only that singular argument, about a disproportionate representation; he made no other complaint against the Electoral College that I saw.)

                      So shouldn't the argument be for a more uniformly representative Electoral Vote?

                      Why abolition?

                       

                      You mentioned the Senate, where the disproportionate representation is many times greater than that cited in the Electoral College (the 10 smallest States, having only 2% of the American People, but accounting for 20% of the U.S. Senate's votes!).

                      Mr. Bennahum's argument for abolition of the Electoral College, due to it's non-uniform representation, seems to me like addressing the non-uniform representation of the U.S. Senate, by suggesting the Senate be abolished!

                      No?

                       

                      I would think were we to be troubled in any way by the disproportionate representation in the U.S. Senate, we would seek a more uniform representation there, instead of the extreme of abolishing the Senate.

                      Sure, let's make the Electoral College more represenative; but seeing as those Electoral Votes are apportioned among the States, according to those State's representation in Congress, then we might as well make our Congress more uniformly representative of the American People...

                      Both of which are great suggestions!

                      But in neither case would you abolish the one institution or the other, simply because you found it to be not uniformly representative of the American People.

                       

                      I've already typed more than is necessary, about the extraordinary hazards of electing our President by a "national popular vote"; hazards addressed very well by our Founding Fathers, in their Constitutionally-mandated Electoral College.

                      To abolish the Electoral College, in favor of a "national popular election", is to trade an annoying next-door neighbor, for a criminal one.

                      I thought Mr. Bennahum's argument to be a good one, for making the Electoral College more representative of the American People...

                      ...but I couldn't find even the slightest thread in it, that Justifies abolishing the Electoral College, for it's disproportionate representation (which again, is nothing compared to the disproportionate represenatation in the U.S. Senate).

                       

                      And I find it wonderful, how many geniuses there are among the American People today, to see so much fault with that manner of electing our president...

                      ...fault that 220 years of Presidents and Senators and Representatives and Justices and Citizens like you and I, were apparently blind to.

                      And the Founding Fathers and authors of the Constitution itself, they too so blind to the faults of the Electoral College, to have written it into our Constitution...

                      Along with 220 years of U.S. Lawmakers, too blind also to those faults, to have Amended them for us.

                       

                      We are certainly the most insightful and wise generation of Americans there ever has been.

                      I believe television is what we have to thank for that.

                       

                       

                       

                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by mefirst (August 26, 2007 7:44 am ET)
                           

                        i did address the senate issue by pointing out the power of the executive.  i would not abolish the senate  because i don't want a unicameral legislature, because i would rather it be difficult to pass a law or program.  i don't want it to be a quick process.  and as i pointed out,  originally senators were not elected by popular vote, but by legislatures.  it took an amendment to change that. 

                        my understanding of the reason for electoral votes was to prevent the large states like  virginia and  massachusetts from dominating the presidency, but that happened anyway initially.  there really is no problem now with any particular state dominating the job.   and if your objection is ballot stuffing, then that can be done now to deliver the votes of a state to one person.   obviously, as with the direct election of senators, the abolition of the electoral college would require a constititional amendment.   that amendment could also include a requirement for physical ballot [paper], and the right of anyone to  inspect those ballots.    voting is done on a precinct level, with usually a few hundred people per precinct.   i think any pattern where lots of extra votes showed up would become evident.

                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by Dem02020 (August 26, 2007 8:52 am ET)
                             

                          That the ballot box can still be stuffed in any State, to deliver the votes to one person, yes, I already mentioned how that would only be stealing the election away from the other People in the State... stealing the Electoral Vote from them; which is reason for them to be alert and on guard, and to monitor the integrity of the election: All things they can easily do, as Citizens of the State in which the election takes place.

                          And I already pointed out how any inflating or exaggerating of the "popular vote" in any State, would never increase that State's influence in the Electoral College: They having so many Electoral Votes (equal to their representation in Congress), and no more; but were we to have a "national popular vote", that kind of misreporting of a State's "popular vote" would then have that effect of increasing that crooked State's influence in the election...

                          ...and I don't think the State of Texas would give a hoot how it appeared, or what People thought, if it appeared that they were doing what I just described.

                           

                          Where you mention that what I just described, would "become evident"...

                           

                          What least little difference has it made, of how "evident" it has "become", that Bush and Cheney used false or FALSIFIED intelligence to compel an invasion and occupation of Iraq?

                          Has that being "becoming evident" discouraged them at all, or rectified the matter in any way?

                          What was Bush's commutation of libby's prison sentence "evidence" of, and did that "becoming evidence" discourage or undo in any way, that commutation?

                          Many more examples could be cited, including the election of 2000, and of how much "became evident" then.

                          The point being, that as long as they get what they want, Bush and Cheney don't give a squat what does and does not "become evident"... and We have had no power in stopping them, or holding them accountable, despite all that has "become evident".

                          When it comes to the integrity of an election, I couldn't care less about wrong-doing simply "becoming eveident", as opposed to preventing it.

                          That's what the Electoral College does, it prevents any State from having a crooked influence on a "national popular election" of the President, by limiting that State's influence in that election, to it's Congressional representation... it's Electoral Vote, which cannot be increased, no matter how great the lies told, about that State's "popular vote".

                           

                          Lies so great that they "become evident" to everyone in the world... and yet that means nothing to us, or to the liars; because "becoming evident" doesn't solve the problem, that the Electoral College prevents.

                           

                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by mefirst (August 26, 2007 9:52 am ET)
                               

                            perhaps the state of texas wouldn't give a hoot if it became evident that they were stuffing the ballot box, but other citizens of other states would.  as  i pointed out all voting is on a precinct level, limited to a few hundred voters.   you can go on line and see the vote totals for every precinct.  that's something you could not do in 1800.  and i want the process made entirely clear, with the right of anyone to inspect ballots.  that is what  would prevent  any large totals from being added.  in fact, i posted a link here before about how a precinct in volusia county in 2000 in florida reported 16,000 negative votes for gore on election night.  a democratic official noticed it right away.  if the system were as corrupt as you suggest, then a democrat for any office would never get elected in a red state.   not that i'm saying trust anyone, i'm saying make the process crystal clear.   the fact is that the present system gave us bush.  i don't see that as any great endorsement of it.  and the founding fathers never meant for the constituton to be the final word.   they recognized that circumstances change, and that's why they provided the amendment process.  until roosevelt, presidents took  office in march, because at the beginning of the country it took a long time to get and transmit information.   an amendment changed that.   but as i said,it was the present system that gave us bush.  that in itself doesn't not provide an argument for the constitutional process as it is now.

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                          • Author by roundhouse (August 26, 2007 3:29 pm ET)
                               

                            I'm no expert on the subject, but I do not enjoy being sarcastically alluded to as one of the,"...many geniuses there are among the American People today, to see so much fault with that manner of electing our president...

                            ...fault that 220 years of Presidents and Senators and Representatives and Justices and Citizens like you and I, were apparently blind to."

                            But it must be said that even the counter proposal to the Republican bill, The National Popular Vote bill, does not eliminate the Electoral College. It simply guarantees that the winner of the most votes in all 50 states will win the election.

                            Two quotes from the national popular vote website sheds some light on the reasoning (and since so many decisions are made by lack of information, take a look) :

                            "The shortcomings of the current system of electing the President stem from the winner-take-all rule that awards all of a state’s electoral votes to the presidential candidate who receives the most popular votes in each state. "

                            "Under the National Popular Vote bill, all of the state’s electoral votes would be awarded to the presidential candidate who receives the most popular votes in all 50 states and the District of Columbia. The legislation (in the form of an interstate compact) would take effect only when enacted, in identical form, by states possessing a majority of the electoral votes—that is, enough electoral votes to elect a President (270 of 538). "

                            [link to www.nationalpopularvote.com]

                            The argument of ballot box stuffing notwithstanding, fair and transparent elections must be the standard and can be the standard with paper trails monitored by bipartisan and/or independent citizen groups.

                            As for the wisdom of our founding fathers, were they so wise in the beginning as to grant voting rights to women or anyone other than white land owners? Did they prohibit slavery?

                            No. They were not. The wisdom of those men resides in their knowledge that the Constitution is a living breathing document and subject to change in congruence with an evolving social habitat.

                            Moreover, when the Electoral College was created during the Constitutional Convention, many delegates were afraid of giving the people too much direct power. The process has been amended in the past to make elections more fair and more representative of the will of the people.

                            Why stop giving power to the people?

                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by Dem02020 (August 27, 2007 10:01 am ET)
                                 

                              The two quotes you offer from the website you mention:

                              The first claims a "shortcoming" in the Electorla College system, because of a State's awarding all of their Electoral Votes to whoever wins the State's "popular vote", by whatever margin... "the winner-take-all rule".

                              If that's a problem, then apportioning the Electoral Vote of a State (by District or however) is the solution.

                              And my very first comment on this thread (the first of many) was to disagree with the item above; that apportioning a State's Electoral Vote is not "changing the rules in the middle of the game", it's simply making Law, like Maine and Nebraska have made; the characterization of "changing the rules" is amusing, for how foolish it is... I can just imagine any Senator or Representative, rising to their feet in Congress, and protesting any Amendment or revision or rewriting of any Law or Act, by saying "Hey, what do you think you're doing, trying to change the rules?"

                              Anyway, the first quote you make, cites "winner take all" as a "shortcoming": Maine and Nebraska apparently agree, which is why they apportioned their Electoral Vote.

                               

                              The second quote you give, about this idea of however a State's election for president turns out... whoever the People of that State chose, by whatever margin great or small, does not determine that State's Electoral Vote...

                              Instead, that State shall sit in front of the television, and SEE WHAT EVERYBODY ELSE IN THE COUNTRY, OTHER THAN THEM... SEE WHAT EVERYBODY ELSE THINKS FIRST...

                              And then regardless of whoever that State chose to be president, by whatever margin great or small, they will dismiss completely from consideration, the results of their own "popular vote", and cast their Electoral Vote for THE CHOICE THAT EVERYBODY ELSE MADE, IN THE OTHER STATES.

                              If that's not insane, then I don't know what is.

                              I'd describe it as a State sacrificing it's own "popular vote", and therefore it's own Electoral Vote, on the altar of the "national popular vote"...

                              ...it sounds crazier and crazier, every time I type it.

                               

                              As for the Founding Fathers, and what they variously thought about slavery: I think that's a good argument against them being perfect, but no argument at all, against the Electoral College.

                               

                              Anyway, that's all... I guess it was sarcasm what I just wrote, about the insanity and craziness of sacrificing a State's choice in an election for President (like for example that State choosing John F. Kennedy by a landslide margin), in favor of whoever won the "national popular vote" (like Richard M. Nixon for example)...

                              "We the People of the State of Maryland, despite choosing John F. Kennedy for President by a landslide margin, do cast all of our Electoral Votes for the winner of the national popular vote, Richard M. Nixon!"

                               

                              It sounds crazier and crazier every time I type it, and I guess I'm not being sarcastic either.

                               

                               

                               

                              Report Abuse
          • Author by smittymatt16 (August 27, 2007 8:57 am ET)
               

            Actually, in the 2004 election, the vote was 45% - R and 55% - D.  I wouldn't call that "HUGELY".

            Report Abuse
            • Author by nomobush (August 27, 2007 9:26 am ET)
                 

              In a country that was so evenly split, a 10 point spread is a huge margin.

              Report Abuse
        • Author by DorisRussell (August 26, 2007 12:26 am ET)
             

          Tex

          Many Republican states would change if this scheme was in place. North Carolina is another one also.  I think it really shows they will do anything to stay in power in 08. 

          Report Abuse
      • Author by NL207 (August 25, 2007 2:51 pm ET)
           

        Lets float THIS proposal:   All voters in the national election must prove they are US citizens.  Period.

        Wait a minute!  This is ALREADY the law.  Maybe we need to exclude the California electors altogether until they can demonstrate they actually conform to this law.  There could be half a million illegal votes in that state and no one would notice.

        Motor voter:  A law designed to enroll illegal voters on the rolls.

        California:  a haven for illegals of all flavors.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by solon (August 25, 2007 2:59 pm ET)
             

          NL a poster who specializes in imaginitive baseless assertions and pure delusion

          Report Abuse
        • Author by loonz (August 25, 2007 3:04 pm ET)
             

          Wait a minute!  This is ALREADY the law.  Maybe we need to exclude the California electors altogether until they can demonstrate they actually conform to this law.

          Do you have evidence that California does not conform to this law?

          Report Abuse
        • Author by DorisRussell (August 26, 2007 12:27 am ET)
             

          NL

          Are you that much against democracy?

          Report Abuse
    • Author by CaseySpring (August 24, 2007 8:43 pm ET)
         

      I forgot who on MSNBC said this yesterday maybe Hardball with Mike Barnacle however they claimed it was a win win for the GOP, the divert the Democratic Party from concentrating on the GOP candidate in 2008 to place money and resouces. Its scary what the GOP is doing.

      Report Abuse
    • Author by draftedin68 (August 24, 2007 8:48 pm ET)
         

      Congratulations, Jamison...

      Your "The approach Walters and Schneider have taken -- flatly declaring a transparently unfair proposal to be fair, while offering misleading and incomplete reports that buttress that contention -- is obviously less than ideal." has just been nominated for the prestigious Understatement of the Century Award.

      Having suffered through the Darrell Issa-led slime campaign that burdened this state Herr Govenrnator, I can't imagine anything that this state's GOP wouldn't try.

       

      Report Abuse
    • Author by oscar the grouch (August 24, 2007 9:05 pm ET)
         

      The GOP California proposal is a step in the correct direction, but only if adopted nationwide.  As it is now, a small handful of states are in play in any Presidential election, a proposal similar to the GOP proposal would bring more states into play in national elections and that would be a good thing. As practiced now by Maine and Nebraska, there is little effect on National elections, but when one state controls about 25% of the required electoral votes and the winner of the state wins by even 1% gets all those votes, something is sadly missing in our Democratic Republic.  Think of how 2000 may have been different if Florida's electoral votes could have been split by Congressional District rather than winner take all over a few hundred disputed ballots. Sure the GOP in CA wants to see this in place for 2008, but that is the flaw in the plan.  It needs to be adopted nationwide and in place in 2012 (or 2016 at the latest). Am I worried about a D taking control of the White House in 2008? Nope. This nation has survived for 220 years (since 1787) because of our political diversity, it should continue to survive.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by roundhouse (August 24, 2007 9:21 pm ET)
           

        I don't think so. Breaking the problem of the Electoral College down to smaller and smaller replications of itself is just redundancy.

        I agree with the majority of Americns on this. We should be focusing on moving away from the E.C. and toward the popular vote.

        A side helping of public finance would be real tastey too. And if you want get even tastier, runoff elections would make for a nice topping.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by DorisRussell (August 24, 2007 11:42 pm ET)
             

          "I agree with the majority of Americns on this. We should be focusing on moving away from the E.C. and toward the popular vote. "

          Roundhouse, I agree with you. The one thing that has not been discusssed in this country is our electoral process. Campaign finance is one thing, but the electoral college is outdated and as long as week keep it we risk "electing" another Bush.

          Report Abuse
        • Author by Dem02020 (August 25, 2007 7:46 am ET)
             

          There seems to be a widespread assumption that there's a problem with what's referred to as the "Electoral College"; and the only guess I can make for this assumption of a problem, is because maybe Al Gore got more popular votes nationwide in 2000 than did George W. Bush, yet Bush received more Electoral Votes (with a little help from Anton Scalia and the SCOTUS); and so some people think the Electoral College flawed because of that, and that we need to abandon that Constitutionally mandated method of electing our President.

          The idea of making the "national popular vote" the standard of electing our President, was considered but rejected by the writers of the Constitution, and for good reason; as a matter of fact, they saw such a disasterous problem with electing the President by the "national popular vote", that they put their heads together and worked overtime on it (220 years ago this summer!), to solve the problem.

          Here's the problem, and I'll illustrate it in particulars, to save time:

          If the 2000 presidential election were to have been held, with the "national popular vote" as it's pre-determined standard, then I'd ask you, what kind of "popular vote" numbers would have been reported out of Texas, as being for George W. Bush?

          They wouldn't stuff the ballot box in Texas would they, to fluff up the "popular vote" nationally, for George W. Bush?

          And Jeb and katherine harris in Florida, they wouldn't have done the same, and stuffed the ballot box for GWB in Florida, and reported outrageously exaggerated "popular vote" tallies, just to bump up and fluff up the "national popular vote"?

          Of course they would have. Knowing ahead of time, that some sort of "national head count" will decide the election, they's have dragged heads out of the gutter, and out of the graves, and had dead people voting for GWB... not just dead people, but imaginary made-up fictitious people, in the millions!

          With the way the States of Texas and Florida and Georgia and the Carolinas and Alabama and Mississippi and Kansas would have reported their "popular vote", George W. Bush would have beaten Al Gore in a landslide!

          Texas alone, would have doubled or tripled or increased to whatever degree it would take, the "popular vote" they were reporting, to get Bush over the top in the "national popular vote".

           

          Take a moment to think about that please. It's real, and it's central to the problem, and to the solution of it.

           

          The Founding fathers and authors of the Constitution had a simple and wise solution to that problem:

          "Let no State's influence in a Presidential election, be any greater than that State's representation in the U.S. Congress."

          Which is to say that "Whatever number of popular votes for President any State might claim, however exaggerated, let that State's Electoral Vote be no greater than that State's representation in Congress."

           

          Again, "Let them stuff the ballot boxes to their heart's content in Texas, for George W. Bush... let them report popular votes in the names of dead people... let them report popular votes cast by millions of imagined fictitious people... let Texas double or triple or report ten times over, the popular votes cast for George W. Bush in Texas, in an effort to win a "national popular vote"...

          ...but they are limited to 34 Electoral Votes, based upon their represenation in Congress, so they'd be wasting their time.

          They therefore can never corrupt a Presidential election, by exaggerating outrageously an inflated and fictitious "popular vote" tally, in an effort to win a "national popular vote".

           

          It's a brilliant solution to the problem, our Founding Fathers and the authors of our Constitution came up with, 220 years ago this summer... 220 years ago today!

          We call it the "Electoral College", and it was invented by those Founding Fathers, and written into their Constitution for us; and it has stood for the lifetime of that Constitution (220 years!), without any generation before ours, finding fault with it enough, to abandon it.

          This is the wisdom and the foresight and the knowledge of corrupt men, the writers of our Constitution had...

          ...and they had never even heard of Texas back then!

          How could they have known?

           

           

          Report Abuse
          • Author by mary59 (August 25, 2007 1:27 pm ET)
               

            That's an interesting observation about the electoral college...one worth pondering.

            Thanks.

            Report Abuse
        • Author by captfoster2 (August 25, 2007 9:02 am ET)
             

          RoundHouse,

          You said....."We should be focusing on moving away from the E.C. and toward the popular vote. "

          I couldn't agree more!

          And the likely reason the GOP would never want this implemented nationwide.....

          They'd NEVER win another seat or office anywhere and they know it!

           

          Report Abuse
    • Author by oscar the grouch (August 24, 2007 9:07 pm ET)
         

      By the way, MMFA, why is CA shown as a Red State in your graphic?????

      Report Abuse
      • Author by loonz (August 24, 2007 9:29 pm ET)
           

        Because they didn't want to make it a green state????

        Report Abuse
      • Author by HuntingtonBeachLefty (August 25, 2007 1:23 am ET)
           

        "...why is CA shown as a Red State in your graphic?????"

        For the same reason your low oil pressure light on your dash is red.

        This initiative would take away one of the small pleasures of living in the Republican county I'm in; Knowing that the very Republican voters who outnumber me by a huge ratio when I'm at the polls are casting votes that are meaningless. Ha!

        Let Texas try it out, and let us know how they like it.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by juliajayne (August 25, 2007 8:44 pm ET)
             

          Hey HBL, we already had Tom Delay gerrymander our congressional districts. The GOP slop in Texas would probably find a way to gerrymander this as well. I say we just count Austin and Dallas (favor Dems).  :)

          Report Abuse
    • Author by Dem02020 (August 24, 2007 11:18 pm ET)
         

      "changing the rules in the middle of the game"

      That's a strange way to characterize the making of Law. The same could be said of giving three Electoral Votes to Washington D.C., or limiting the President to two terms (or ten years), or repealing Prohibition... or even Prohibition itself. Aren't all new Laws, and especially Constitutional Amendments (like the ones just listed), a "changing of the rules"?

      And isn't the characterization of "in the middle of the game" intentionally empty and meaningless: What "game"?

      If a majority of Californians were to want California's Electoral Ballot apportioned, and were such an apportionment enacted into Law (as those in Nebraska and Maine have previously done), isn't that simply the making of Law, or the Amending of it?

      And if apportioning California's Electoral Ballot is "changing the rules in the middle of the game", then isn't the bizarre plan to league California to a number of other States (Maryland is the first member of that League), which League if it should collectively cast 270 Electoral Votes, then casts all of their Electoral Votes for whoever it is that's being reported as having received the most number of Popular Votes nationwide... isn't that also "changing the rules in the middle of the game"?

      I wouldn't characterize that bizarre "League scheme" as a "changing of the rules in the middle of the game": I'd describe it as making a strange and complicated sacrifice, on some sort of imagined altar, called a "national popular vote"...

      ...the thing sacrificed being a State's choice for President (more specifically, the choice of President of the majority of the People of that State), in favor of the choice being made by the majority of the People in some number of other States.

      Anyone who thinks that's a good idea, must be tired, and swamped with abstract nonsense, and juggling too many "isms" in their head, and confused by too much watching of television, and overwrought with a kind of panic that thinks "everything's wrong", and otherwise rendered a sort of insane...

      ...that they can't think straight or see clearly or reason worth spit, to see what wisdom there may be, for our Founding Fathers to have Constituted what we call the Electoral College, and to see that that Electoral process for selecting our President, has stood for as long as the United States has (which is how our Founding Fathers intended it), and the Electoral College has never rationally been blamed or found fault with, for any problem ever, associated with the election of our President (or else it would have been Amended long ago, instead of survivng 220 years, the life of the Constitution).

      Why do people think they find fault with the Electoral College: Because they don't understand it?

      The Constitution of the United States is one of those written works of man, whose truth and foresight exceeds by far what it is men generally write...

      ...and in so doing, exceeds the understanding of most men.

      It is the type of written work, that were you to read it and find fault with it, then you are counseled to read it again, and think some more, and take your time and consult others even...

      ...because it is the work of many good men, all well-read and all educated, all reflective and meditative, who labored many hours in a summer long, and went back and forth and deliberated much...

      ...and they did all this 220 years ago this year, this month, and this day: True.

      And their children in the year 2007, are so confused and so impatient of thought and so television-addled of mind, and so paniced that "everything's wrong", that they can't even think straight or see clear or take the time to understand, what their Forefathers worked so long and hard to write, and what has stood for 220 years, as the manner in which we elect our president, as mandated by the Constitution of the United States.

      This is always the way it is, in written works that express rare truth and foresight, but are then misread by common and impatient men, who don't take a fraction of the time to think about something written, that it took to write it. 

       

      And it's a shame that the former colony of Maryland, is now the first State in the League, so confused that it sacrifices it's People's Constitutional Electoral Vote, in favor of what others think.

       

      I blame television.

       

       

       

       

      Report Abuse
      • Author by oscar the grouch (August 25, 2007 10:03 am ET)
           

        A couple of well thought out and well written posts, DEM2020. The framers of the Constitution appear more astute with each passing year. I don't see the problem of awarding electoral votes by congressional district, with the senatoral votes going to the winner of the statewide popular vote. if implemented nationwide.  It seems to work in Nebraska and Maine, although those two states are such small players that it makes little difference on the national scene. If it is "illegal" to do it by iniatitive, it still could be enacted through state legislatures.

        Report Abuse
      • Author by steeve (August 25, 2007 10:25 am ET)
           

        Six months before the election is "the middle of the game".  Make the initiative take effect in 2012 and there might not be a problem.

        If Californians want to vote to make their own state irrelevant in a national election, we can't stop them.  We can only ponder why such a bunch of Arnie-voting fools weren't lockstep republican already anyway.

        Report Abuse
    • Author by johnny_nyc8351 (August 25, 2007 2:31 pm ET)
         

      I don't blame the Republicans for trying to steal our next presidential election. It's the only way they're going to win.

      At least they're doing it out in the open this time.

      Report Abuse
    • Author by cicero418 (August 25, 2007 2:43 pm ET)
         

      So I presume that you are also in opposition of this type of plan being implemented in North Carolina, right?  The state legislature (Democratically controlled)  has this exact same proposal in front of it, which would allocated North Carolina's 15 electoral votes (which have all gone to Republicans for the past 6 or 7 presidential elections) on a per-district basis.  It too would go into effect in time for the 2008 election.

      Just think, if this had been in place for N.C. in 2000, Al Gore would have won the presidency, regardless of how Florida turned out.

      But since you think its such a terrible idea for California, I presume you will also oppose it for N.C., right?

      Right?

      Later,

      Report Abuse
      • Author by solon (August 25, 2007 3:01 pm ET)
           

        Yes. I think unless it is enacted in ALL 50 states it is a bad idea.

        Report Abuse
      • Author by funnymanpants (August 25, 2007 4:28 pm ET)
           

        Ditto here. Yes, the SC proposal would be unfair.

        Either all 50 states enact it, or none do.

        (Or better still, why don't we just frickin count the popular vote like other democracies?) 

        Report Abuse
        • Author by cicero418 (August 25, 2007 6:30 pm ET)
             

          Well, nothing in the Constitution requires that all 50 states must have the same method of allocating electoral votes.  Nebraska and Maine already allocate votes on a per district basis.

          I do question whether it passes U.S. Constitutional muster to make this change through via a voter passed state constitutional amendment, although it could be argued that since the state constitution had to have been initially ratified by the state legislature, and since they did not specifically prohibit voter referendum amendments from making changes to the electoral college allocation, then that means the legislature has given tacit approval to these changes (if they pass).

          I just find it interesting that Democrats are screaming about this initiative in California, yet pushing to pass it in NC  (And, being a third-party guy myself, I also find it interesting that the Republicans are being hypocritical here as well, pushing this in CA but fighting it in NC.)

           

          Later, 

          Report Abuse
          • Author by nomobush (August 27, 2007 9:35 am ET)
               

            Could it be that the N Carolina proposal just didn't hit the news in the same way that the California proposal did?

            After all, when you asked people how they felt about the law in NC, they told you that they were against that too.

            Report Abuse
    • Author by BreakerBaker (August 25, 2007 3:19 pm ET)
         

      It "sounds fairer" only if you think that a last-minute rule change that affects only the largest Democratic-leaning state, and does so in a way that benefits Republicans, "sounds fair." Such a unilateral change is self-evidently unfair.

      To whom is it unfair? To the voters of California? To the American people? Or to the Democratic Party? I think it's a question of who the initiative is trying to be fair to. Is it to the voters of California; the political parties themselves; or to the general American public at large.

      It's clearly more fair for the people of California. The question seems to be who are we concerned about being fair to. We can all accept that a system where more votes count is a fairer one, so the new system would obviously be more fair to the voters of California. So the question is not whether or not the new system is fairer to Californians (it clearly is), the question is whether or not the system is fair to the political parties or the rest of America. Further, the question is whether or not the rest of the country's systems of assigning electoral votes should be any of California's concern or whether the main concern of California voters should be ensuring that California voters are not disenfranchised.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by funnymanpants (August 25, 2007 4:04 pm ET)
           

        The proposal is neither fair to California voters, nor to American voters at large. If yo are a Democrat in California, and you realized the new system would put in place a Republican even though he didn't win the popular vote, you would be against it. 

        If you are an American voter, you would similarly be against it.

        Either all states enact this system (which they should), or none do.  

        Report Abuse
        • Author by BreakerBaker (August 25, 2007 6:48 pm ET)
             

          If yo are a Democrat in California, and you realized the new system would put in place a Republican even though he didn't win the popular vote, you would be against it. 

          But as it has been in recent memory, the vote has unfairly favored California Democratic voters. Considering the fact that California is the most populous state in the nation, the number of Republican voters in California far exceed many of the total voters in some other states. Yet the present structure makes their votes in national elections irrellevant. Making the California electoral count relate more directly to the actual California popular vote count may take an advantage away from the California Democrat, but that hardly makes it unfair with regard to California voters. The present system is clearly less fair to California Republicans than that system would be to California Democrats.

          If you are an American voter, you would similarly be against it.

          The question though, is whether or not the American voter's objection should matter at all to the California voter. While I certainly recognise the national implications to California altering its system, and how those implications certainly shine light onto the dubious motivations of the National Republican Party, I don't know that from a principled standpoint one can really fault California voters for wanting to alter their system. It is, after all, the responsibilty of California to look after Californians.

          Either all states enact this system (which they should), or none do.  

          I have to say that sounds like an unlikely concept to ever be synchronized. Equally unlikely, I imagine, is an abolishment of the Electoral College, so if you think change is needed (as you seem to imply) it may be the case that A: that change will take place state-by-state over several election cycles and B: you need a catalyst for that change.

          All of that being said, I think the motivations involved in arguing for the change are not to simply empower and enfranchize the California voter. I think it's an absolutely virtuous idea put forth by shady individuals looking for advantage not equality.

          Report Abuse
        • Author by smittymatt16 (August 27, 2007 9:08 am ET)
             

          I'm not saying that I am in favor of this bill, but it is slightly fair when realizing the amount of votes that would be allocated.  In 2004, the overall vote was 45% - R, and 55% - D.  If the new law was enacted in 2004, then Dems would have received only 33 EC votes (compared to the 54 or 55 [i can't remember] they actually received), and Reps would have received 22 EC votes.  Proportionally compared to the popular vote, the Dems received more EC votes than they should have.  Again, I'm not saying I'm in favor of the bill, but these are some figures I had heard. 

          Report Abuse
    • Author by johnrtorres638 (August 25, 2007 4:07 pm ET)
         

      "Calvin Ball"?   

      Robert Torricelli

      Both sides play "calvin ball" whenever they can.  It's the Dems who are really good at it. 

      Report Abuse
      • Author by funnymanpants (August 25, 2007 4:26 pm ET)
           

        What exactly is your point?

        Report Abuse
        • Author by johnrtorres638 (August 25, 2007 4:52 pm ET)
             

          MMFA's screaming headline for this topic was as follows:

          In the comic strip Calvin & Hobbes, a 6-year-old named Calvin and his stuffed tiger, Hobbes, regularly play a game called [link to www.simplych.com] title="http://www.simplych.com/cb_rules.htm">Calvinball, in which the players make up the rules as they go along. According to [link to www.simplych.com] title="http://www.simplych.com/cb-1rule.gif">Calvin, "The only permanent rule in Calvinball is that you can't play it the same way twice." Players alter rules throughout the game in a constant effort to gain an advantage.

          The game, Calvin [link to freewebs.com] title="http://freewebs.com/calhobbes/oogy.gif">once observed, "lends itself to certain abuses."

          Some similar abuses may play out in California in the coming months.

           --------------------------------------------- 

          My point is that I can come up with plenty of examples of "Calvin Ball" played by both political parties.  I live in California which was ruled a few short years ago by complete Democratic control of all branches of government.  The people of the state got so angry with the Dem's "calvin ball" games that they threw out the former governor - and we ended up electing Arnold.

          This topic that has MMFA so hot and lathered and flustered is really a poor example of CB.

          My previous post showed an even more horrendous example of Calvin Ball that played out a few years ago - with no complaints from the left. 

          Report Abuse
          • Author by funnymanpants (August 25, 2007 5:39 pm ET)
               

            Once again, the you might want to look up the purpose of MMFA--to counter *conservative* misinformation. This item by MMFA is an excellent example of conservative misinformation. 

            I have no idea what Toricelli did a few years ago. But I know having one rule for California and a different set of rules for the rest of the country, so that a Republican might again get elected against the popular vote; and then having newscasters state this is a fair proposal, is as good an example of misinformation as you get. 

            Report Abuse
            • Author by johnrtorres638 (August 25, 2007 6:05 pm ET)
                 

              Actually, I do know that the purpose of this site is to gainsay anything that conservatives argue -

              For example, I BO or SH on Fox states that something is "X", you guys feel you must go immediately into kneejerk mode and yell, "NO - IT'S Y!!!"

              All I'm trying to argue is that MMFA has to be at least a little bit fair and honest when they make claims in this topics.

               

              Report Abuse
              • Author by steeve (August 25, 2007 6:14 pm ET)
                   

                The thrust of the MMFA piece is not the ballot initiative, but the media's poor presentation of it.Also, the Torricelli case is not as good an example of changing the rules as the issue here, since the New Jersey court followed well-established precedent in its decision ([link to news.findlaw.com] such that even the US Supreme Court that installed Bush couldn't find anything wrong with it  ([link to www.foxnews.com]

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                • Author by steeve (August 25, 2007 6:19 pm ET)
                     

                  Oh, and it would be fun to see you show how the Democrats controlled California by changing the rules, and how the voters preferred Arnie specifically because of those alleged rule changes.

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by johnrtorres638 (August 25, 2007 8:15 pm ET)
                       

                    First, my first example about how the Dems (and their liberal judges) changed the course of the election is better because it truly happened IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ELECTION SEASON.

                     This topic (as usual for MMFA) is not really on target.   

                    Although candidates are doing debates earlier than ever before, the elections are still a long way off and the rule change that the Repubs are proposing would have to be voted on during the primary.

                    So, in fact, this is NOT in the middle of the 2008 election.  (try looking at the calendar, if you do not believe me.  My calendar says that the year is 2007!)

                     

                    In  sum - my example clearly shows changing the rules during an actual election.  MMFA is whining about a hypothetical that will not go into effect until next year IF it gets approved by the voters.

                     

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by princeofwheels (August 26, 2007 10:23 am ET)
                         

                      So what you are saying is that this is the MIDDLE of the election season. Therefore, the changes would be made in the final stretch of the election....Shouldn't changes be made before ANY election cycle begins?   The subject can be debated after this election. But I think the Republans are too afraid of something like that. 

                      Report Abuse
                    • Author by steeve (August 26, 2007 12:20 pm ET)
                         

                      The vote is six months before the election.  Look at your calendar.  It's in 2008, and fairly close to the middle.

                      Report Abuse
            • Author by BreakerBaker (August 25, 2007 7:27 pm ET)
                 

              It's not accurate to suggest the country as whole presently allocates all of their electoral votes the same way. The difference is that the states that already have a district-based plan are so small in population that they don't have that many electors in the first place.

              Report Abuse
    • Author by hughsie (August 25, 2007 8:01 pm ET)
         

      I don't get it. California is a solid democratic state. How could this possibly pass? If it does, shame on those leading the charge against it!

      Report Abuse
    • Author by proudconservative (August 25, 2007 8:59 pm ET)
         

      What a surprise that a political party is trying to win an election!!  Obviously, this is a way to include those in Cal-lee-forn-ya who would rather not see the state just in play for the Democrat party.  Maybe even those there on the left coast would like to see both parties not taking us for granted, pay attention and fight for all of our votes.  It's kind of like how the Democrat party continue to ascribe only an expected servitude by Americans of Black African descent as a voting block.  No real attention is paid to actually improving the situation of blacks in this county.  When a voting block or whole state comes into play, then the parties will pay attention.

      As far as changing the rules goes, I remember a certain senator from NJ being 'torched' and encouraged to get out of the general election long after his name supposedly could be legally be removed from the ballots.  Seems to me that the great recipent of a Lewinski was able to help make that move despite changing the rules just a few weeks before the general election.

      Also, just like every other senisble ballot initiative that passed in that state, the lefties will rise up to over rule the voice of the populace via the courts and keep it the way that works best for them.

      And why can't it become like the other 3 states that use a different system for the electoral college?

      Report Abuse
      • Author by solon (August 25, 2007 9:19 pm ET)
           

        There is no such thing as a Democrat Party, there is a DemocratIC Party and a ReNAMBLAcan Party

        Report Abuse
      • Author by BreakerBaker (August 26, 2007 3:50 pm ET)
           

        You see, that's the problem. In the end, this isn't about enfranchising the electorate. This is about a political party changing the system so that they will have a better chance of winning an election. You must see the distinction. It's not about empowerment. It's just dirty politics. And of course both major parties are regular participants in that kind of dirty politics. That doesn't make it right.

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        • Author by open_mind (August 27, 2007 3:59 pm ET)
             

          Well stated.  I should think that principle should apply to either party as well.  It would be just as wrong if the Democrats were/are doing it.

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    • Author by oscar the grouch (August 25, 2007 9:49 pm ET)
         

      So, from above the Rs are for the plan in CA, against it in SC, the Ds are for it in SC, but against it in CA.  Looks like both sides are playing "Calvinball" (if that is what MMFA wants to designate it).  Remember, politics is a lot like war, only messier.

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      • Author by open_mind (August 27, 2007 4:01 pm ET)
           

        I agree to a certain point.  At least the Democrats had either the sense or decency to back away from their position in SC.  I hope we can say the same about the Republicans in CA soon.  Maybe not.

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    • Author by princeofwheels (August 26, 2007 10:36 am ET)
         

      To solve this he wants/she wants(this would be the Republans), I suggest that Ameirca adopt the following RULES of ELECTION.

      • Every American gets three votes, to include children(no age limit), criminals, illegals and anyone who wants to pay for these votes.
      • These votes can be used at any time in any state and for any candidate, not just a vote for the candidate but also a vote against the candidate.
      • The voting period lasts for three months and your votes can be changes at any time and in any state.
      • The Electoral College and kindergarten will be eliminated. We can also eliminate the College of Cardinals in Rome. However, we may want to use the WHITE SMOKE when someone is elected.
      • The votes will be sent to one secure location to be counted under close supervision.
      • There are many other small possibilities to this election idea but we can work on those as we go along.
      • Everyone should be happy with this new system

      As I have a lot of free time in my future, I will volunteer to count these votes on my own. You can trust me, I have experience in this type of thing.

      Sincerely,

      Karl Rove

      As an aside, let's just vote.

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    • Author by tintin20005170 (August 26, 2007 11:38 am ET)
         

      The most obvious problem is that there would probably be many scenarios (if a democratic candidate piled on the votes in majority democratic districts but lost close  contest in any districts that more evenly split) in which a candidate could potential get the least amount of votes in California but be awarded the majority of the electoral delegates -- i

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    • Author by tony956835255 (August 27, 2007 8:57 am ET)
         

      Why the Reform is a really good idea!*$100,000,000! That’s right; one hundred million will be spent in California in media purchases and campaign activities.                                                    *Returns the power of the vote back to the people*Reinforces our founding fathers concept of representative government*Presidential candidates will not ignore California like they did in 2000 and 2004*California will become a competitive market in the Presidential race forcing       candidates to campaign in this great state*Grass roots political issues, such as energy and the environment, will be emphasized in the election*Independents votes will matter*Rural voters will have a voice*California will reflect its political demography*It enhances the importance of swing voters and competitive districts*It is the fairest system possible

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    • Author by thehersch (August 27, 2007 12:41 pm ET)
         

      A minor factual correction. Mr. Foser twice states California's electoral vote total as 54. It's 55.

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