"Media Matters"; by Jamison Foser
Listen up, Tucker
In the week since former Vice President Al Gore became Nobel Peace Prize winner Al Gore, The Daily Howler's Bob Somerby has written extensively about news reports and commentary about Gore's win that have failed to note the brutal and often false savaging Gore experienced at the hands of the media during his presidential campaign. Looking at the first news reports about Gore's award, a similar thought occurred to me: so many of those reports focused on whether Gore would again run for president, yet they made no mention of the primary reason he is not president today -- years of news reports (led by The New York Times and The Washington Post, not Fox News) that falsely portrayed Gore as a liar and childishly mocked him for his clothes.
It's a story that has been told many times, by countless people. And yet we keep telling it, and we sometimes criticize others for not telling it. Why? Simple: because it is important, because horrible media coverage of progressives didn't stop with Al Gore, and because not enough people are aware of it.
Editor & Publisher recently reported on a new poll of Americans' attitudes toward the news media:
A new Gallup poll released today show[s] a wide gap between how Republicans and Democrats view the mass media. Nearly 3 in 4 Republicans say the media is "too liberal."
[...]
[Gallup director Frank] Newport explains: "Republicans in America today remain deeply distrustful of the national news media -- in sharp contrast to Democrats, who have a great deal more trust in the media's accuracy." Exactly twice as many Democrats (66%) express some faith in the media compared with Republicans (33%).
More than twice as many Americans say the news media are too liberal (45%) rather than too conservative (18%). But Newport adds: "Americans' views of the bias in news media are highly related -- as would be expected -- to underlying political orientation."
Some 22% of Democrats find the media "too conservative," but this is a much lower number than the Republican assertion [that the media are too liberal] (77%).
Between the media's treatment of Gore and their handling of the run-up to the Iraq war, how can Democrats have so much faith in the media and Republicans so little? There are probably a large number of factors that play a role, but two seem obvious: The American people are rarely told about the media's peddling of conservative misinformation, and they are frequently told that the media are "liberal."
The October 16 edition of MSNBC's Tucker provides an excellent, if infuriating, case study. Host Tucker Carlson and his two journalist guests peddled a steady stream of conservative misinformation -- and at the same time suggested that the very cable channel on which they were doing so is biased against conservatives.
Carlson led A.B. Stoddard of The Hill and Josephine Hearn of the Politico in a discussion of an allegation that, in 1992, Hillary Clinton listened to a recording of a telephone call held by political adversaries of her husband. The allegation first appeared in Her Way, the Clinton biography released earlier this year and written by New York Times reporter Don Van Natta Jr. and Jeff Gerth, formerly of the Times. The sole citation Gerth and Van Natta provided for the allegation read, in full, "Author interview with former campaign aide present at the tape playing in 2006."
Her Way was poorly received when it was released months ago, perhaps because it was heavily reliant on anonymous sources like the "former campaign aide" who made the telephone-recording allegation, and perhaps because of the authors' history of dubious reporting. In any case, the phone allegation was almost universally ignored.
Nevertheless, Carlson declared Tuesday evening that "rumors of scandal" might disrupt Clinton's presidential campaign:
CARLSON: A new book out by a pair of Pulitzer Prize-winning New York Times reporters makes a startling claim. Back in 1992, it says, Hillary Clinton allegedly eavesdropped on the phone calls of her husband's political opponents. Some Republicans say that smacks of hypocrisy especially since Senator Clinton criticizes the warrantless wiretapping of suspected terrorists -- trouble for Hillary Clinton?
In fact, Her Way isn't new, and it wasn't the reason Carlson devoted a segment to the allegation -- Carlson later admitted he hasn't even read the book. So why did Carlson, Stoddard, and Hearn -- along with other media figures -- devote so much time to such a vague and thinly sourced allegation in a months-old book that nobody much cared about at the time?
Perhaps because the GOP told them to. This flurry of media attention began with an article in The Hill laying out the Republicans' plan to attack Clinton over the allegation.
Republicans plan to seize on an allegation from the 1992 presidential campaign to tarnish Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.) on the red-hot issue of government surveillance.
[...]
Republicans are focusing on an allegation in a recent book by two Pulitzer Prize-winning reporters, which suggests Clinton listened to a secretly recorded conversation between political opponents.
[...]
A GOP official said, "Hillary Clinton's campaign hypocrisy continues to know no bounds. It is rather unbelievable that Clinton would listen in to conversations being conducted by political opponents, but refuse to allow our intelligence agencies to listen in to conversations being conducted by terrorists as they plot and plan to kill us. Team Clinton can expect to see and hear this over and over again over the course of the next year."
By attributing the segment to revelations in a "new book" (that isn't new and that he hadn't read) rather than to the fact that Republican political operatives were criticizing Clinton, Carlson managed to give an air of credibility to what was a thinly sourced partisan attack.
The Politico's Ben Smith explained how the Republican National Committee successfully (and dishonestly) used The Hill to launder the eavesdropping allegation and make it appear more solid than it actually is:
The allegation was reported in passing, and without a named source, in Jeff Gerth and Don Van Natta's recent Hillary bio. I'm not sure about other reporters; it caught my eye, and I tried and failed to confirm it with veterans of that campaign.
Anyway, it's not really sourced in a way that it could stand on its own, and got scant coverage when the book came out this summer.
So the RNC pushes it to the Hill. And today, RNC co-chairman Mike Duncan sent out an e-mail with this assertion:
If you needed further proof that Hillary Clinton will do anything to win, a Capitol Hill newspaper is now reporting that she eavesdropped on Bill's political opponents during his time as governor of Arkansas.
Well, not really.
But the RNC couldn't have done it on its own: It needed the help (intentional or not) of journalists who 1) reported the allegation and 2) did so without noting the dubious sourcing -- sourcing that, according to Ben Smith, "could not stand on its own." And, indeed, the Republicans' "plan to seize" on the allegation was enough to spur several news reports. As Media Matters noted yesterday, Slate.com, National Review, CNN's Paula Zahn Now, ABC News' The Note, Fox News' Fox & Friends, MSNBC's Tucker, The Washington Times, and The American Spectator all reported the allegation without noting that it was based on a single anonymous source.
Worse, the purported recollections by an anonymous source of an event that supposedly happened 14 years prior was enough for some reporters to flatly declare the event to have been illegal.
On Tucker, the first thing the Politico's Hearn said was: "And it looks like it is illegal and was illegal then, in '92." Later, Hearn all but invited an official investigation: "[Y]eah, I think it's a big deal if somebody decides to investigate it." She then seemed to reverse herself, noting, "I mean, it's 15 years old. I think, lacking an investigation, I don't know, it seems pretty tenuous right now." But not too tenuous for her to declare it to have been "illegal."
Nor did Hearn hesitate to defend the authors who brought us this "tenuous" allegation; she falsely stated that Clinton's staff "apparently ... never challenged anything in the book at all." Hearn was presumably basing that statement on an identical claim by Gerth that was included in the article in The Hill. But Gerth is hardly a disinterested observer whose statements on the matter can be taken as fact; he is one of the book's authors and has an obvious interest in portraying it as beyond factual reproach. Had Hearn spent a moment looking into the matter before simply repeating the author's defense of his book as fact, she would have known that Gerth was not telling the truth. (Not only was Gerth's claim -- repeated by Hearn as independent fact -- that the Clinton camp hasn't challenged anything in the book false, it is largely irrelevant. In assessing the book's credibility, it matters far less whether the Clinton camp has pointed out flaws than whether anyone has pointed out flaws. And Media Matters, among others, has done so, repeatedly.)
But what makes the Tucker segment noteworthy is not that it featured false, misleading, and oversimplified claims about a prominent progressive -- that happens all the time on cable news. What really makes it noteworthy is that at the end of the segment -- a segment in which three journalists had discussed at length an allegation against Hillary Clinton that appeared, based on a single anonymous source describing a 14-year-old event, in a factually flawed book that at least two of the three had not read -- Carlson and his guests agreed that the media is giving Clinton a pass on the allegation.
None of the journalists had noted the allegation's dubious provenance. None noted that Gerth, at least, has a long history of deeply flawed reporting about the Clintons. Instead, they made false claims (as in Hearn's assertion that nothing in the book had been contested) and misleading statements (as in Carlson's description of the authors as "not two guys from The American Spectator. These are two -- in at least one case, I think, a pretty well-established, at least, former liberal. I mean, they're not screaming right-wingers") bolstering the credibility of a book that at least two of them had not read. After this laughable display, in which they had been manifestly unfair to Hillary Clinton, these three journalists decided that she was getting off easier than Rudy Giuliani would in a similar situation:
CARLSON: If this were a story about Rudy Giuliani from 1992, it would lead every show on MSNBC today. There's just no question it would. Is that -- I mean, you know it would. Rudy Giuliani using a police scanner to listen to people's cell phone calls? Holy smokes, man.
[Hearn nods and smiles]
STODDARD: But, no, no. But it's not clear that she -- it was her husband's campaign.
CARLSON: Her campaign.
If it was Bernie Kerik working on behalf of Rudy Giuliani -- I'm not just claiming media bias, it's more complicated than that, but do you -- would that not be a story?
STODDARD: It might be true. It might be true.
CARLSON: Could he get away with saying --
STODDARD: Well, anything about Bernie Kerik is a story these days. I mean, to be fair.
Bernie Kerik has been Rudy Giuliani's business partner, police commissioner, and recommendation to be secretary of homeland security. And Bernie Kerik is currently facing indictment for assorted crookedness. Of course Bernie Kerik is a story -- he and his ties to Giuliani should probably be more of a story. There is no way in which Giuliani's relationship with Kerik is analogous to a single anonymous source claiming that Hillary Clinton listened to a recording in 1992.
Later in the same show, Carlson made another comment that, while not directly accusing the media of bias, likely led some viewers to conclude that the media inaccurately portray Republicans as the party of the wealthy. Carlson claimed to speak a simple truth that "nobody ever, ever mentions":
CARLSON: OK, but here's the fact that nobody ever, ever mentions -- Democrats win rich people. Over 100,000 in income, you are likely more than not to vote for Democrats. People never point that out. Rich people vote liberal. I don't know what that's all about.
The reason that "people never point that out" probably has something to do with not wanting to be thought of as a fool or a liar. Carlson's claim that people making more than $100,000 a year tend to vote for Democrats is simply false.
In the 2006 congressional elections, Republican candidates won among those making at least $100,000; they won by an even larger margin among those making more than $200,000. The same was true in the 2004 presidential election, the 2004 congressional elections, and the 2000 presidential elections (exit poll data are not available for the 2002 elections, but it's a safe bet that the pattern held, particularly given that Republicans did better overall in the 2002 elections than in any of the others).
Tucker Carlson's entire job is covering politics and has been for years. It would be bad enough if Carlson simply didn't know something so basic about contemporary American politics as the fact that people who make at least $100,000 tend to vote for Republicans. But it's worse than that: He actively believes (unless he is simply being dishonest) the opposite; so much so, that he takes others to task for not joining him in spreading his false claims. And not just once -- he made the same claim in July:
CARLSON: I think this is a longer-term trend that has been unnoticed by a lot of people. I'll never forget that in 2000, exit polls showed that Al Gore won the over-$100,000 income bracket. Rich people are liberal. Rich people vote Democratic. There's this hangover from the 1930s that the Democratic Party is the working man's party. No, it's the party of Silicon Valley. It's the party of rich people. It's the party of the poor and of the rich.
In fact, 2000 exit polls show that only 43 percent of "the over-$100,000 income bracket" voted for Al Gore; 54 percent voted for George W. Bush. That was the income range Gore lost by the largest margin -- but Carlson will "never forget" that Gore won it!
Carlson recently wondered why he should listen to Media Matters. The answer is simple: because he doesn't have any idea what he is talking about and would be well-advised to listen to people who do, even if he doesn't share their ideology.















Tucker was on Bill Maher's show last week and made a total a$$ of himself.
Big deal, there are a lot of TV (and radio) hosts out there that can look/sound like the South end of a North bound horse on their own shows.
That doesn't sound difficult. So why do you think Faux Noise is paying so many of them to do it?
Not being a FNC employee, I have no real idea as to why. Perhaps it is a lame attempt at a parody of the culture and times we are experiencing. Just a guess.
"Tucker was on Bill Maher's show last week and made a tottal a$$ of himself."
Yeah, he kept yelling and interupting, which isn't neccesarily so bad in itself, but his thoughts were all so inane. No more pre-pubescent guests, Bill!
First of all, let's not get off-topic too quickly.
Bob Somerby is an absolute genius. The Daily Howler is not only one of the earliest and oldest of blogs, but it is consistently brilliant. So much so that many others don't like to cite him too much because they obviously steal from his insights (jk, but only kind of...)
How Somerby manages to sleep at night I'll never figure out.
I strongly urge all MMFA readers to make the Howler a regular part of their daily routine. Now, on to the flame wars about.. well, whatever.
If that's really true then doing that on Maher's show is the perfect venue. Maher's an a$$ to begin with. Maher's a pontificating tool of kooks like Airhead Huffington.
LES,
Ok..... I have to ask.......
If Bill Mahar is an a$$.......who do you compare that presumption to?
Tucker? Bill O? Sean? Rush? Ann? Cheney? Bush? Gonzo?
I watch his show all the time, I got to tell ya, I don't see it
Bill Maher can be a jerk and a misogynist, but he's smart, insightful, and extremely funny.
I don't compare Maher to any of those you've indicated. Maher is ( or tries to be) a comedian, so I would compare him to someone who IS funny: Colbert.
Less, Colbert IS funny and so is Maher. Youi do know that Colbert is a parody, right? Thought I'd better ask.
You do know why it is a parody,yes? Thought I'd ask.
Les - are you kidding me? Do you watch Bill Maher? The man falls in line with reason and logic more than any TV personality covering politcs, that I know. It is the unwillingness to accept perfect logic and reason shown by so many americans that is what blows my mind away.
These reporters and their so-called "Experts" flat out lie to Americans to help someone's political cause. Plain and simple. Use your brains and decipher what the reality is from the fiction.
I believe Ignorance is huge in destroying America. We are so caught up in what Brittany, Paris, Lindsay and American Idol are doing that we never bother to stop and check any true reality. Americans cannot be bothered to pick up an educational book and read it or double check a reporter's comments/opinions/statements of "fact."
The "news" is no longer the news. It is a FOR PROFIT industry now, owned by a handful of media moguls looking to turn as big a profit as possible, which is why we now have infotainment instead of real news done with real journalism. That is why your local news is always headed up with some sort of violence...violence sells, and apparently goodwill and the truth do not, or that is what they have imbedded in our heads...have they ever really tried the latter?
If a reporter makes blanket statements about someone or some organization without sourcing theses statements with true evidence, you can bet it was made up B.S. politcal spin.
Of course there will be someone who tries to counter what I am saying with some uneducated response they heard from someone like Rush without an ounce of truth or reason/logic behind it. Just trying to defend something they know nothing about.
America was once a great nation, however, it has been dragged down by lies, corruption, greed, and ignorance. The sooner we stop looking at the world with rose-colored glasses and accept the harsh reality we now find ourselves in, the better!
Wake up America..enough is enough labeling people as Liberal, Conservative, Democrat, Republican
Exactly. As John Stewart might say- he acted like a d__k. Carelson bullied Krugman with his usual screeching non-sequitors. I wished Maher had told him to back off.
"Years of news reports that falsely portrayed Gore as a liar...."
Gore is a liar. Consider this Gore comment during a speech to the Move.org nutcases:
“Now the White House has informed the American people that they were also ‘all wrong’ about their decision to place their faith in Ahmed Chalabi, even though they have paid him 340,000 dollars per month,” Gore said. “Chalabi had, and escaped prison by fleeing the country. But in spite of that record, he had become one of key advisors to the Bush Administration on planning and promoting the war against Iraq.”
http://www.moveon.org/pac/gore-rumsfeld-transcript.html
According to the BBC, a Clinton administration official met with a nine-man INC delegation led by Chalabi in June 2000 and “reiterated the administration's view that the Iraqi leader should be tried for war crimes and crimes against humanity.”The article also noted, “The Clinton administration is trying to beef up the INC after nearly 10 years of sanctions on Iraq have brought the world no closer to bringing down the Iraqi leader.” Part of beefing up the INC included a pledge from the Clinton administration to provide the INC with $8 million.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/809168.stm
Who was the Clinton administration who met with Chalabi and the INC. Why, it was none other than Vice President Al Gore, the same man who in 2004 criticized the Bush administration for putting its trust in Chalabi, a man who “had been convicted of fraud and embezzling 70 million dollars in public funds from a Jordanian bank” eight years before Gore met with him.
Either Gore is a liar or he has an extremely pooor memory.
Gore's a chronic hypocrite. Here's a few articles documenting his contributions to the polluters' and war criminal cause:
http://www.counterpunch.org/frank10152007.html
http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn10132007.html
kind of interesting that alexander cockburn trashes both gore and the ipcc, co-winners of the award, for their stands on global warming, saying they are promoting "bogus science".
They trash Gore for his war crimes, too. Guess that part eluded you in your worship of the man.
i don't worship anyone. but it does go to someone's credibility when they dismiss the science of global warming.
For anyone that thinks Gore would have made such a great president just ask yourself why the people of TN, his "home" state did not vote for him. They know him for the kind of man he really is.
explain the relevance and how this makes him a liar or someone that has a bad memory.
It appears that Gore met with Chalabi in 2000. Maybe he learned something then, or in the following years, as he had a different opinion in 2004.
Kozakid , you seem confused by people learning.Haven't you ever looked into someone's eyes and seen their soul?
It doesn't matter what Gore learned about Chalabi after 2000. Gore criticized the Bush administration for aligning itself with Chalabi because Chalabi had been convctied of embezzlement in 1992. When the Clinton administration alighed itself with Chalabi, the fact that Chalabi had been convicted was already known.
Wasn't Calabi head of the Saddam opposition group?
Support Saddam opposition isn't the same thing as using information you know isn't credible in order to invade.
You're trying too hard.
Gore isnt lying. He may be a hypocrite for slamming Bush for what his administration also did but it ist a lie. Bush DID to that and DID admit it was a mistake. Bush is the worst liar I have seen as president and that is saying a lot. Compared to Bush who lies so much I was suprised when I found out his name really was George, Gore is George Washington.
It's lying by omission. Gore did hnot tell the MoveOn nutcases that the Clinton-Gore administration also aligned itself with Chalabi and the INC. Has Gore ever acknowledged that that was a mistake.
No it isnt. A lie by omission is only a lie if it CHANGES the essential nature of what was said. Gore MAY be a hypocrite for doing this but it is NOT a lie since what he said is ABSOLUTLY TRUE. Giving the extra information would show they were fooled for a time also but it wouldnt CHANGE the nature of what he said. Gore was correct that wasnt a lie.
Um, so if Gore met with Chalabi in 2000, that makes him a liar? What did he lie about? Did I miss something here?
the republican platform in 2000 actually criticized the clinton administration for having a hands off policy towards the iraqi national congress: scroll down to middle east..
"the [clinton] administration has used an arsenal of dilatory tactics to block any serious support to the iraqi national congress, an umbrella group reflecting a broad and representative group of iraqis..."
http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2000/conventions/republican/features/platform.00/#53
as this link shows, the clinton administration had cut off funds to the iraqi national congress and then the united states congress voted $97 million in funds in 1998, mostly going to the inc. and this quote:
"in december 2002, robert dreyfuss reported that the administration of george w. bush actually preferred inc-supplied analyses over analyses provided by long standing analysts within the cia."
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Iraqi_National_Congress
Good job mefirst. Good research
What's that go to do with the prince of tea in China? The Clinton administration cut off funds to the INC during their early years, but the BBC article from 2000 I linked to clearly shws that the Clinton administration was working with Chalabi and the INC as they left power in January 2001.
they had to because they were mandated by congress to distribute the money passed in 1998. and chalabi was not the only leader of the iraqi national congress. they had a three person presidential council and a twenty six member executive council with chalabi as it's president.
Or you're an idiot. I'll go with the later.
You don't mention 5 Deferrments Cheney's business dealings with Saddam. Some have said that he was helping Sadam aquire WMDs.
Chalabi had credibility to a point. When do you think he lost it, or where you never fooled by him?
This thread is about Gore's lying, not Cheney.
No it isnt. That is what you WISH the thread were about. Or is that the assignment the hive mind gave you today?
Kozakid,
You said:
"This thread is about Gore's lying, not Cheney."
Really? A George Soros backed website would be willing to attack a Democrat?
Or is it that Soros really has nothing to do with MMFA and this thread really is about Cheney being a pathetic liar and your just another bobblehead willing to believe those lies?
"This thread is about Gore's lying, not Cheney." Kozakaid
Actually, it's about Tucker's lying, and then claiming Hillary was getting off easy because more people in the MSM weren't lying about it too.
Susinct AB.
Clinton Clinton Clinton
If one were drinking kool-aid one would still think Clinton has been president for the last 6 years.
I guess the point concerning Gore's hypocrisy regarding Chalabi went way over your head.
The Bush/Cheney war profiteers used Chalabi to gin up their phony case for invasion.
If you want to keep going back to Clinton/Gore, note that they thought Sadam was a menace, but had the good sense to monitor him instead of trying to take over his country. Cartoonish portrayals of history try to blame Gore for problems that involve years and years of bad policy. Gore was not the emporer of the world at the time.
BushCo used Chalabi's lies to invade and has caused the death of over a million Iraqis, and thousands of U.S. soldiers.
It was Clinton and Gore who started to fund Chalabi and his phony INC, who kept dropping bombs on Iraq for eight long years, who caused lots of misery and death in Iraq from denial of medical supplies. This genocide has been BI-partisan from the start. Your pet Democrats are as guilty as hell, too.
Fair enough. But they aren't my pets, and I don't worship them.
While the Green party platform is what most of us here want, some of the Greenies resemble mosquitos who hover around the democratic party to draw little sips here & there.
Some of us choose to push the dems towards progressive policies, while hoping that the Green party will become a force for progressive change instead of playing spoiler.
"Some of us choose to push the dems towards progressive policies"...by backing their right wing candidates and justifying excuses NOT to vote for actual liberals?
As long as the Democrats know that you will never vote for anyone else, they know they never have to change. There's absolutely no incentive for it. They can kill and rob all they want, and as long as they wave the Repub bogeyman at you, you'll vote for them again and again and again. They laugh at you. They abuse you and know you'll never stop coming back for more, no matter what they do.
And as long as the Greens remain so sanctimonious and unwilling to realize that politics is about compromise, they'll never be a real political party.
Sorry, had to be said.
We arent all as strident as Redking.
Fair enough, Solon. I don't even disagree with the Green party platform, but the self-righteousness of some of the most outspoken party members turns me off.
The only reason they haven't been responsible for any mistakes is that they haven't been elected to any office capable of affecting change. Give anyone power, they'll mess up eventually.
REDKING:
We can assume you voted NADER in 2000, sucking enough votes away from the Democrats to allow Bush to steal the election.
In a very real way, your 'gesture' in wanting the green candidate RESULTED in everything Bush has done. Congratulations! You are a PRO GENOCIDE person, as your actions have resulted in everything the Bush Administration has done!
(I wouldn't ordinarily have used this sort of "logic", but it is exactly the "logic" you yourself use every day, in trying to tar everyone who isn't YOU as a supporter of genocide. By your standards, you have done your part in assuring war and killing, surely as if you were giving the orders yourself!
Anyway, back to REALITY. There are too many important issue than to be contemplating the blue-sky fantasies of the "greens".)
You didn't make a point...you insinuated something was wrong but wouldn't follow up...
I am proud of having an american winning the NOBEL prize. Too bad there are way too many high profile pundits who have no hope of even achieving half what Al Gore has done.
Gore's hawked one book and one movie. Other than that, he's helped pollute our land and kill arab children. What's his acheivement? The Nobel Prize means little, they gave one to Kissinger, who helped destroy democracy in Chile. This cult of Gore is just getting stupid. Next they'll claim he can walk on water.
Congratulations, red, you've won the ignoble prize for copious Greenhouse gas emissions.
I'm not sure people realize how scary this article is. Foser is pointing out the devastating catch-22 we're mired in. People's view of the world has become so dependent on the impressions given by just a few media companies that it's becoming impossible to inform them of the brainwashing they are undergoing. We're so accustomed to the assumed importance of opinion polls that we think they necessarily reflect facts, (life as Wikipedia) rather than just reflecting what people believe is fact. It's democracy itself as tyranny. Something is fact as soon as enough people believe it is.
Think of what happens when you show the opinion polls that reveal more people on the right than the left think the media is biased against their world view. It simply reinforces their belief in the veracity of that idea. Every major bit of 'conventional wisdom' today seems based on some sort of fallacy. This one simply ignores the glaring fact that these people have gotten the idea that the media is 'liberally biased' from the media itself. It's the triumph of irony and a devastating indictment of our age.
This is the basic problem behind almost every major American policy disaster we face in our lives. Without this insane dichotomy we would have no President Bush in the first place. We would not have an Iraq war. Indeed it's becoming impossible beyond the wildest speculation to imagine what we might have if we actually DID have a liberal media in the true sense of the phrase.
Well said, Sundog
BRAVO SD
You would still have Saddam Hussein to deal with, or even worse, his insane sons. We're better off without them. Let's just hope the Dems don't screw up what Bush started ( and screwed up ) and at least he tried; something that Clinton was too busy to do whilst he was dispensing foreign policy with his pants around his ankles.
I think it was a Republican Congress that kept its eye on everything Clinton did instead of actually governing. More concerned with the politics of it alll rather than the actual handling of matters.
Okay Clinton was not a blameless person. Who is -- cast stones here? However, there was relative peace and prosperity enjoyed by our country and the larger part of the world. Our country was well thought of and much admired -- are we now?
As for Gore, I think the right has nothing better to do than to attack a person for winning the Noble Peace Prize, our "phony" soldiers, and small children (non of whom is running for office). That shows the depth of their idea(l)s and why they should fade into history like the Whig party.
More to the Gore point of lying that the GOP flogs, if anything he is guilty of hyperbole rather than outright lying. And what politician is not? "I brought jobs to ... (insert area), I made x happen or not, and I will not raise taxes (although I think that the presumption that voting against a tax cut is raising taxes). All by yourself? Impressive and doubtful.
I also don't get the GOP unforgiving nature regarding a persons later faulty recollections of a couple meetings especially given their recent heroes. I mean Reagan "forgot" arms dealing. Cheney has "forgot" the law after shooting a friend in the face and so much more frankly I don't have the space. Bush "forgot" knowing Abramoff despite huge contributions, his being on the transition team, a large number of WH visits and at the White House holiday parties. And Rove forgot outing a CIA agent -- oops. And these were not years later but while they were in office. Of all people I think the Right should be most tolerant of a bad memory.
Yeah, Clinton was soooo loved by the ELITES of the world. But there were protests in the arab streets about his bombing sprees, there were protests in the south american streets about his "free trade" policies. Clinton packed our prisons and sold our jobs off. He funded a genocide in Palestine and waged his own in Iraq. He waged chemical warfare on civilians in Colombia. Such a lovely man.
"Okay Clinton was not a blameless person. Who is -- cast stones here? However, there was relative peace and prosperity enjoyed by our country and the larger part of the world. Our country was well thought of and much admired -- are we now?"
Revisionist history. See http://www.commondreams.org/views/040900-106.htm
Citing as a "rebuttal", an obscure French author's opinion in an even more obscure book-and one that wasn't even published in the U.S. Hilarious.
The book's amazon rank is #2,996,460. Better hurry while they last-if you can read French.
Nice to see the Bush Administration has done such a great job turning that opinion around. Lol.
There will always be people who don't like us, but I would say that number is much closer to its zenith than at any time during the Clinton Administration or any other point in history that comes to mind. There really is no comparison.
"Let's just hope the Dems don't screw up what Bush started ( and screwed up ) and at least he tried.."- Les is more
Les, I couldn't have slammed our "special" Commander-in-Chimp any better. Did you even read what you wrote, or is it just like farting?
At this point I don't care about BUSH. I'm conservative but it doesn't take a genius to figure out he was led down the garden path by a bunch of dumba$$es with respect to Iraq. The question now is how will this misadventure end up? It can still turn out 'alright' if handled correctly. That means NOT pulling out now just because of political expediency.
The U.S. soldiers (72%) want withdrawal within a year. (If you wnat the link, it's in Stars & Stripes)
Bush and Cheney led THEMSELVES down the garden path. They had good intelligence that they chose not to hear because they wanted to invade Iraq. You do know we're using all this taxpayer money for a business deal, (Operation Iraqi Liberation) to give you a hint.
What? Sounds like more Bush-esque 'Stay the Course' mularkey?
How does one claim to not support the Bush policy while simultaneously supporting the Bush policy? Seriously, you may be able to turn me into a conservative with a good argument.
He wasnt led down ANY path. He WANTED to invade Iraq. His FIRST NSC meeting days after he took office was about invading Iraq and cutting up the oil revenues. He talked about how he WANTED to be a war Preznit. Its not only DELUSIONAL to cut him any slack on Iraq its pathetic HE is the commander in Cheif. Truman said the buck stopped at HIS desk a whole bunch of conservatives will say ANYTHING to put that buck ANYWHERE else. If he is so incompetent he is being LED DOWN DISATEROUS PATHS, he should resign in shame.
Saddam Hussein was NEVER a threat to the United States. Never! Both parties have killed a nation in the name of "peace", when that nation could never attack us. Call it what it is...racist, genocidal imperialism.
I call it a business deal for oil. It stinks to high heaven.
Yeah, Les we would still have a broken Saddam who hadnt so much a sneezed in anyones direction for a decade, desperatly trying to hang on to power and steal enough to feel good about himself. Contained and controlling Iraq. Instead of Iraq in a virtual civil war, with a theocratic state alligned with Iran on its way as the best we have to hope for and a few hundred thousand dead Iraqis not to mention a few THOUSAND DEAD AMERICANS. I seem to have missed you pointing out the COST of getting rid of Saddam. Should we ask the mothers, daughters and wives of those dead Americans if it were worth getting rid of an annoyance like Saddam? One that General Zinni testified to the Senate was not a threat? Not a gathering threat not an immanent threat not to us not to his nieghbors NOT EVEN CLOSE? That Saddam? The one the CIA said directly in their NIE threat assessment was NOT a threat to attack us, use terrorism against us or allow any weapons they might have to be used by terrorists against us THAT Saddam? Saddam gone is a good thing. The price we paid for that is much too high. Lets hope NO Demcrat in our coming history is EVER as big a liar or anywhere near as incompetent as the catastrophic moron Bush
Losing men in battle is always a high price to pay for war, especially this war. However, it should be noted that these men volunteered , and are damn proud members of the military who take their jobs seriously. All members of Congress who authorized funds for this war are equally at fault for this war if you are going to point fingers. They all saw Saddam as a threat, including both Clintons, so remember to include them in the blame game.
These men who volunteered didn't volunteer for a business deal for oil. This war isn't about anything but oil, no matter what rationale they use this week.
Men volunteer to protect the country. That is not the same as signing up for any neocon wetdream an ignorant president wants to use them cheaply for. I have no problem with blaming Congress too. Clinton certainly thought Saddam was a threat worth WATCHING and dealing with, who didnt, I notice he didnt start a disaterous WAR.
Your comment about the blame game is so simplistic and stupid. Let me translate from wingnutese. WWAAHHHHH stop saying my president ought to be held accountable for HIS actions WWWAAHHHHH its not fair to say a war BUSH STARTED WITH LIES is his fault, WWAAAHHHHH look over there or there or anywhere but at the GUY WHO LIED TO START THIS WAR WWWAAHHHHHH. Grow up, the President works for ME, I darn sure get to tell him when I think he sux at his job.
Who are you telling to 'grow up' you child. If you can't post like an adult I suggest a good remedial course in high school.
<>I've explained my displeasure with Bush and his Iraq policy, but apparently it isn't good enough for someone who merely wants to toss idiotic names around for effect. The whole point of Iraq, now, is to solve the existing problems correctly, and not leave the Iraqi people to some form of utter anarchy. But if you're so blinded by your hatred for the president then you are a sad lot, indeed.
If your last post is an example of your debating skills, then I suspect you are a recent graduate of the Dan Rather school of journalism. Good luck with that.
2000 should have been a slam dunk wide victory for Gore. The fact dumby won out over asshole tells us something (even when factoring in hanging chads and the Supreme Court).
Gore, however, like Biden since his asshole days (the Bork hearings) has hugely matured. Both Gore and Biden now I see as qualified presidential material. In 2000 I voted against Gore; in 2004 I voted against both Bush and Kerry. Sure would be nice for a change to have someone worth voting FOR rather than merely against.
In the end, one of our major political parties is unacceptably bad; the other one is worse. And the level of political discourse sucks. (Media Matters would do better to merely report, factually, misinformation from whichever side, with little or no editorial).
Ultimately, one could hope against hope that a rational pragamatic center would arise that would be only to happy to let the far right and far left 20% play in the mud while the center 60% GOVERNS.
Oh that poor ol Al Goreilla, life has been so unfair to him, Dem's worked for a month in Florida and just could not find enough votes to make him pres. Poor ol Al Goreilla the Supreme Court stole his presidency. Poor ol Al Gorilla in 1997 he had an income of $197,000.00 and gave $355.00 to charity. Poor ol Al Goreilla grew up in the lap of luxury in a hotel in DC. Has been on the government dole all of his life except the last 6 years. Now he gots himself a Nobel PEACE prize for.... mmm peace? NO. mm mm invention of the internets...NO mm mm stopping a playground fight..mmmm maybe... for his collection of all 36 episodes of girls gone wild...NO.....must be that climate thing....I sure hope big AL Goreilla can bring global warming to Washington State, I am freezing my butt of up here.
Wow you are really stupid tweak. I guess you are too ignorant to actually remember Florida. The state where when they actually got around to COUNTING all the votes. When all valid votes were counted Gore won BY ANY COUNTING SCENARIO. No one was looking for more votes. What they were trying to do was count them. Except Bush kept running to court to STOP the counting. Dems wanted all the votes counted, which is a little thing I like to call COMITTING DEMOCRACY. The GOP drew a line in the sand and did everything they possibly could to STOP the votes from being counted. Then we found out why because when all the votes WERE counted Gore got more of them. Gee it must suck to be a stupid as you. Not able to remember what REALLY happened, only able to regurgitate what some rightwing screechmonkey TOLD you to believe happened. It must suck to be soo stupid that you have to rely on others to do your thinking for you and tell you what to believe while us people with an ACTUAL brain can just remember it the way it REALLY happened and not the phony regurgitated propaganda version your hivemind masters TOLD you to repeat. You are a moron and I pity you.
Wow, that's a lot of debunked lies for one post. You're lying like it's 1999. I'm surprised you didn't bring up Love Story.
"I am freezing my butt off up here."
Relax. Judging by size, that'll take awhile.
Watch out. Don't insult the Great God Gore or all his little worshippers will bite at your ankles about how bad a man you are. After all, Al Gore has single-handedly...promoted a book and a movie about something he's been a hypocritical champion of, in between assisting Israel in killing Palestinians for the pure Jewish state, spraying toxins on the poor peasant farmers of Colombia, and waging unrelentless racism against the people of Iraq. Who cares that he's had a horrible human rights record? He's Gore, god of Democrat hypocrisy. All must worship!
I wonder if they'd all drink the kool-aid if Gore commanded them to.
But you're okay with Tweaker's lies about Gore? Your ideology just put your credibility in a headlock.
Sounds like somebody is jealous of Mr. Gore. Is that you Georgie Boy Bush on this thread?
"poor ol Al Goreilla, life has been so unfair to him"
If only Gore could have not been a U.S. Senator, Nobel Prize winner, Academy-Award Winner, Presidential popular vote victor, Vice President, and best-selling author.
Gore must deeply regret not being as lucky as you, in other words.
Tweaker you should get out more. If you did you'd notice some of our local representatives are working in Gore's direction just fine without his help. You missed the tidal energy project about to start in Puget Sound I take it. Equating short term variation to evidence against GW is lame. Do you uncontrollably emit spital when ever Al's name comes up?
Nope....I just purchased a 5 acre lot on the Columbia River that is 20 feet above the water at high tide because Al said the seas will rise 20 ft. I am starting on the dock on monday morning at the 20 ft level.
actually al never said the seas will rise twenty feet. he said it could possibly happen if the greenland ice mass melts. it is already melting faster than predicted. so once again, you are going on misinformation and made up quotes. try a little intellectual honesty. it might be a refreshing change for you.
Tweak, you have my sincerest sympathy over the death of your ability to read and comprehend.
P.S. Reading is Fundamental
Thinly sourced crapola, covered by this...
number of mainstream journalists?
Tucker is the very lowest sort of scum we find in the "news business" today. I don't know how this contemptible pile of filth sleeps at night?
The problerm as outlined couldn't be more clear: 77% of conservatives believe the media is too liberal. Only 20% of liberals believe the media is too conservative. Liberals need to be educated. That takes time and money. Thank God we have Media Matters!
Is this another way of saying both conservatives and liberals think that MSM is liberal? Enquiring minds want to know.
That is probably a fair statement. A majority of people thought there were significant quantities of WMD in Iraq as well.
If anything, I think this demonstrates how pervasive the myth of the "liberal media" is.
Personally, I don't really care about whether the media are liberal or conservative in general. I care only about quality and fairness of each article or story. I think an annecdotal argument could be made either way, which makes the entire argument pretty pointless.
Tucker is another product of media programming that backfired...he was initially hired to look so stupid (which he is) that nobody would believe a word he said, in other words, entertainment (a la punkin head limbaugh, hannity, whats her face, etc, the list goes on) , not journalism, however the american public (average 10th grade education level) thinks these smooth, fast talking jerkoffs have something to say because they talk fast and sound like they know what they are talking about.
......yet they made no mention of the primary reason he is not president today -- years of news reports (led by The New York Times and The Washington Post, not Fox News) that falsely portrayed Gore as a liar and childishly mocked him for his clothes.
Wow - I thought the primary reason Gore was not president today was because morons in Florida couldn't understand a butterfly ballot and voted for Pat Buchanan instead, And it was because they kept counting and recounting votes and they still couldn't find enough - and then that bad nasty Supreme Court finally said enough is enough - and Bush stole the election. I've heard that for so many years - only to find out now it's because the mean newspapers made fun of the way Al dressed, and they called him a liar!!??
The contempt you people here have for the intelligence of the average american is shameful. Of course - it would never cross your mind that Gore didn't win because he ran as a liberal - and that most people don't want a liberal president. That it was his platform is what killed him - not his lies, not his clothes. But you people here are so high on yourselves that you can't even consider the possibility that you could be WRONG. You are so bilnded by your ideaology that you can't see what the majority of the countery wants, likes, and already sees. The results of the polls mentioned in this story are so foreign to you that in your minds - there must be something wrong with the data collection, or there was a bias in reporting them. Only in this leftist looney land can self admitted left-leaning publications like the NY Times and The Washington Post be considered conservative media. Hey Media Matters - maybe the reason you keep having to post stories about other news organizationa "again mischaracterizing", or "Failing to Critisize" someone is becaues it is YOUR view that is WRONG - but no - such a thought is taboo around here.
All I can say is thank God you are all gathered in this one little nest and that there aren't enough of you to make a difference. Even Harry Reid was smart enough to know when to put his tail between his legs and run this week -for carrying your water. Pitty that your own ignorance prevents you from recognizing your own shame.
I cant figure out whether you just arent very BRIGHT or maybe you are so brainwashed you are unable to think. So you THOUGHT, I appologize to REAL thinking for using the term this way that Gore didnt win because he ran as a liberal and Americans dont want a liberal. Lets look at that. First lets remember that Gore WON the popular vote, so whatever reason Gore didnt become President it certainly isnt that the American people didnt WANT him. So your whole house of delusional card falls apart right there. In fact we have to wonder how anyone could even be so deluded they would put together such an absolutly STUPID chain of thoughts, talking points really, and delude themselves that they made sense much less were logical. Obviously you ARE delusional. AND repeating the hivemind propaganda. Notice the same phrasing of the ignorant propaganda couldnt find enough votes. Everyone knew exactly where the votes were the GOP just managed to assure they WERE NOT COUNTED. At least officially because eventually they WERE counted and when that happened the accounting firm that counted them showed that if all valid votes were counted Gore got more votes in Florida BY ANY COUNTING STANDARD. I dont know whether you didnt know that, since the Oxymoron didnt pass that on to the hivemind or if you just PREFER your treasured delusions to reality. Your post was nonsense. It was dumb. It wouldnt make sense to a reasonably bright ten year old to tell them that the reason someone LOST the presidency is that he didnt appeal to the American people WHO GAVE HIM MORE VOTES. I notice the press that pushed the Gore is a storyline IGNORED Bush's outright lies to do so. Because it didnt fit that message. Choose reality WD40. Leave the hivemind propaganda behind it leads you to making a fool out of yourself with silly posts
Thank you Solon - you have reinforced my point - the mere suggestion that you could be wrong about something get's you into an incoherent bable. What are you trying to say in that second sentance?
Go back and re-read my post - I am pointing out that Media Matters has gone off the reservation and now claims Al Gore lost the presidency because he was attacked by a biased press. This is inconsistent with the diatribe you are so bent on. The final Florida vote count showed Gore lost by over 2,000 votes - sorry - get on with your life. But keep arguing otherwise and see where that gets you.
Now go back and look at election history and tell us when the last candidate to run as a liberal was elected to the office of president. (you'll have to go back to the 1940's) Bill Clinton was indeed a Democrat - but he didn't run on a liberal platform. In 1992 he ran on the issue of a middle class tax cut to spur the economy - hardly a liberal idea. In 1996 he touted the common sense welfare reform and the balanced budget he encated - both key elements of the Republican Congress' Contract with America of 1994 - again hardly liberal. Al Gore and John Kerry ran as liberals - and while they carried the vast population centers where libberals tend to gather they did not win the national vote. In case you havent noticed the US is not a pure democracy - we are a representative republic. The electoral college was set up so the population centers would not have an advantage over the rural areas of the country.
Liberalism, progressive socieities, socialism - whatever you want to call it rarely succeeds - thats why so many people come here. Show us a case where they have. If a Democrat wants to win the presidency they will have to run as a conservative Democrat.
You DIDNT MAKE A POINT. You said something so stupid and illogical it could not POSSIBLY be considered a point. You said he lost because he ran as a liberal and most people dont want a liberal for president. Now anyone with two brain cells to rub together can see that is stupid since HE WON THE POPULAR VOTE so most people DID want him to be president. This is really pretty simple. YOU call it incoherent? Man, how dumb do you have to be not to see that saying most people didnt want him to be president for WHATEVER reason is completely contradicted by the FACT that most people DID want him to be president. I wasnt incoherent you have no ability at ALL to understand the simplest logic. As for him losing by 200 votes, that of course IN FLORIDA since he won the popular vote by more than 540,000 votes. That is only because 175,000 votes in Florida remained uncounted because of a raw political powerplay by the GOP. I give them credit they wante it more and didnt care BEANS about democracy so they got their way but those votes WERE eventually counted and if all valid votes were counted GORE WON BY ANY COUNTING SCENARIO. Some day you may obtain the ability to understand simple logic. IF that day every arrives you will be embarassed by how completely illogical your original post was and completely shamed by the fact you wrote a second post claiming the simple logic showing why your post made no sense was incoherent to you. It wouldnt have been to any reasonably bright ten year old.
Solon - had you looked back into history to look for a liberal candidate who won the presidency my point would have been clear to you. You have no response to my point about Clinton running as a conservative Democrat. You ignore the fact that the popular vote in not how presidents are elected.
You had your chances to make a real discussion point - yet all you want to do is harp on failed and imaginary counting scenarios. Media Matters doesn't even consider that the primairy reason Gore isn't president does it? You are stuck in a surreal world that will continue as your prison until you choose to look at things outside your cell.
At this point I can only conceed that you are an unfortunate victim of outcome based education.
"You ignore the fact that the popular vote in not how presidents are elected."
Irrelevant. You said most people didn't want Gore. It doesn't make a damn difference if the election is determined by popular vote, electoral college or a game of horseshoes. The fact that more people voted for Gore than Bush proves that the problem is not that he was "running as a liberal", because that liberalism was obviously more appealing than Bush's ideology.
I laughed out loud when I read your first post. I can't believe the intellectual dishonesty and utter lack of shame you have to try to stick to your absurdist argument.
My original argument was that The Media Matters columnust was now blaming a biased media for attacking Al Gore's lies and manner of dress as the "Primary reason he is not president today" I countered that with the suggestion that America has not elected a candidate that has run as a liberal since the 1940's. If you have a valid argument that can prove otherwise present it.
To bolster that point I pointed to how Bill Clinton ran as a conservative democrat to secure the nominaton and presidency - again - no counter argument.
I then asked for someone to provide an example of a successful liberal/socialist society that actually works. Again nothing.
All you do is whine about disqualified and undercounted votes in a few counties in one state. Pointing to one states disqualified ballots doesn't hold up your argument. For that argument to hold up you would have to look at the whole countrys ballot issues and that has never been done. That said - read the following for your entertainment. Says here Bush would have trippled his margin had votes been counted according to the Gore standard.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politics/2001-04-03-floridamain.htm
You can laugh and hurl insults all day long - you tend to do that when you have no argument. Face it folks - in the words of one of our commanding Generals - you're "stuck on stupid".
You missed this part:"However, it does not answer all the questions surrounding another set of Florida ballots: the 110,000 "overvotes," which machines recorded as having more than one presidential vote. These ballots were rejected by the machines and were considered invalid. Some Democrats say if all of Florida's overvote ballots were examined by hand to learn voters' intent, their candidate would have prevailed."
You're not talking about a full recount, so it doesn't really back up your assertions here. And as has been pointed out, if Gore did win Florida, he would have won the election. So less than 600 votes means the difference between a country that's rejecting liberalism...and a country that's electing a liberal. 600 votes in a country of 300 million people supposedly makes that tremendous difference, and you're acting as if you have some solid argument? I can't help but to laugh at that.
Some Democrats say if all of Florida's overvote ballots were examined by hand to learn voters' intent, their candidate would have prevailed."
I didn't miss that - it's just the opinion of some Democrats - not even all democrats apparently agreed with that. Reviewing overvotes by looking at a piece of paper to determine what someone was thinking. Look at the extreme you have to take this to in order to maybe have a leg to stand on.
We've had another electon since then - John Kerry also ran as a liberal. Didn't win either.
The point is that you were pretending that was some conclusion regarding the will of the people. It wasn't. If you analyze some disqualified votes, but not others, then it favors Bush. So what does that prove?
And you're not addressing the point that you are claiming that 600 people makes the difference in whether people reject liberalism or elect a liberal.
To address your other arguments;
Liberal/socialist societies? First off, I have no idea what socialism has to do with anything here. More importantly, is this really supposed to be a determining factor for American voters? Are we supposed to believe that we live in a country where people like Schwartzenegger and Jesse Ventura get elected, but then people are doing in-depth global political analysis in order to conclude that they can't vote for a liberal. Bizarre.
Clinton ran as a moderate because he was a moderate. Just because he won that way doesn't preclude the possibility of someone winning as a liberal. Even if it costs some votes, Clinton didn't win by a razor-thin margin, so there's some room for those lost votes and for a Gore win.
I was laughing at one idiotic aspect of your post, but since you brought up other ones as well, that's just more fun for me. Thanks!
Are we supposed to believe that we live in a country where people like Schwartzenegger and Jesse Ventura get elected, but then people are doing in-depth global political analysis in order to conclude that they can't vote for a liberal. Bizarre.
Now go back and read my original comment on the contempt people here at MMFA have for the intelligence of the electorate - you just made my point.
Clinton ran as a moderate because he was a moderate. Just because he won that way doesn't preclude the possibility of someone winning as a liberal.
You agree with me that hte last Democrat to win the presidency wasn't a liberal - now go back and find the last on who did. I did not say that the country overwhelmingly rejects liberalism - but that as a whole liberals historically have not gotten elected to the presidency. Gore and Kerry's failure to gain enough votes to put them over the top is part of that historical trend. Note I never said that historical trend precludes a liberal from getting elected.
I was pointing to the idea that many of you believe that somehow Gore was cheated out of the presidency- either by a biased press, or a biased court, or by some misapplied law. Why can't you just believe that not enough people liked his platform to vote for him? Your scoffing at that idea indicates you are so pius about your idealism that such a thought can't even cross your mind. Again - you have helped prove my original point.
You sit here and critisize Bush for being all kinds of bad things - yet he won - twice. Does that say something about him - or the people Democrats chose to run against him? What does that say about you?
Laugh away folks. You have proved me right again! HA HA HA
"Now go back and read my original comment on the contempt people here at MMFA have for the intelligence of the electorate - you just made my point."
How does this address the fact that your point about what happens in other countries has absolutely nothing to do with what happens here? Are you telling me that people don't vote on superficial grounds? If that's the case, I look forward to your explanation as to why so many pundits are obsessed with trivial matters such as John Edwards' hair when the electorate is so much smarter than to care about such things.
"I did not say that the country overwhelmingly rejects liberalism - but that as a whole liberals historically have not gotten elected to the presidency."
Flashback:"Of course - it would never cross your mind that Gore didn't win because he ran as a liberal - and that most people don't want a liberal president."
"Gore and Kerry's failure to gain enough votes to put them over the top is part of that historical trend. Note I never said that historical trend precludes a liberal from getting elected."
You suggested that Gore didn't win because he ran as a liberal, that means his ideology precluded his getting elected.
"I was pointing to the idea that many of you believe that somehow Gore was cheated out of the presidency- either by a biased press, or a biased court, or by some misapplied law. Why can't you just believe that not enough people liked his platform to vote for him? Your scoffing at that idea indicates you are so pius about your idealism that such a thought can't even cross your mind. Again - you have helped prove my original point."
It's hard to believe that "not enough people liked his platform" when he got more votes than Bush. The reason I believe Gore was cheated have to do with a few things regarding an illegal ballot, scrubbing of the voter rolls, Bush's brother and Florida campaign head in charge of the recount, his cousin calling the election for FOX news, the discrepancies in the exit polls, a bunch of Republican staffers physically disrupting the recount...little things like that. It's not some matter of faith, where I simply believe that he was cheated because he should have won.
"You sit here and critisize Bush for being all kinds of bad things - yet he won - twice. Does that say something about him - or the people Democrats chose to run against him? What does that say about you?"
There is something to say about an electorate that actually considers who they would rather have a beer with. Gore won. Kerry was weak. It doesn't say anything about me. What's it supposed to say that I voted against Bush, who is hugely unpopular and almost certain to be considered the worst president of all time? Nothing negative, certainly.
"Laugh away folks. You have proved me right again! HA HA HA"
Good point - I can show your arguments to be idiotic, but I can't force you to undersand it. Your delusions are unshakable.
If all the ballots had been counted properly in Florida, Gore not only would have won the popular vote, he won the electoral vote as well. The news consortium that concluded this came out with their report just as 9/11 happened; thus it was buried.
http://www.bushwatch.com/gorebush.htm
No I am not but you ARE a moron. No question about that. I dont CARE whether Clinton ran as a moderate Dem. That isnt really relevant to the obvious point I have now made twice. Nor did I point out that Gore didnt RUN as a liberal. He picked Joe Lieberman as his running mate for goodness sake. I LEFT the Democratic party duging the 2000 election because of the marginalizations of Liberals. THAT isnt relevant either and its just plain STUPID to say my point has ANYTHING to do with imaginary counting scenarios. There is NOTHING imaginary about the FACT that a half million MORE people voted for Gore than Bush which completly contradicts your ignorant claim that Gore ran as a liberal and lost because people dont want a liberal for president. Its unbelieveably stupid to keep claiming that even AFTER the plain fact is shown you that MORE PEOPLE WANTED GORE TO BE PRESIDENT. You are too stupid to be believed. Your ignorance however is more indicitive of a hivemind mentality that is just repeating arguments he doesnt understand but is comitted to because he was TOLD to believe them. So he does whether or not they make the slightest bit of sense. Even continuing to defend them no matter how stupid they are. Its over. You cannot convince any rational people that such a stupid and illogical point could possibly make sense. You are wasting your mind. The hiveminders already beleive whatever they are told and no one with any sense whatsoever is going to do anything but laugh derisively at your abject stupidity.
Did you think WD40 that the fact you are MAKING an argument has some kind of power seperate from what that argument IS? Did you think the very fact you are TYPING words has some hypnotic effect completely seperate from the point you are trying to make? See the point you are trying to make is ludicrous on the face of it. People can in fact READ. They can THINK. We are not the ones who find out what they believe by listening to some screechmonkey to TELL us what to beleive. Anyone who can read can see that your attempt at a point is ridiculous. Its time again to introduce you to the first rule of holes, when you find yourself IN one its time to STOP DIGGING.
You are such a moron. How can anyone as ignorant as you chastise us. If my IQ ever falls to only double yours I will check myself into the hospital
Only an IQ master like you could write something this incoherent.
So you THOUGHT, I appologize to REAL thinking for using the term this way that Gore didnt win because he ran as a liberal and Americans dont want a liberal
Man you really are proud of your stupidity arent you? Only a moron of monumental stature could not understand the obvious point that its beyond ignorant to claim Gore didnt win because he ran as a liberal and people dont want liberals when GORE GOT MORE VOTES thus WAS wanted by more people. Your stupidity is awesome in its scope.
I have a picture shaking hands with AL Gore when he was VP and I almost voted for GW because of all those stories. Yes, I admit it, I bought the internet story and the rest of them hook line and sinker. So when you imply that those little lies (you can look them up) had no effect well I'm here to tell you brother that just ain't so.
And as for the Liberal tag. In the deabtes when Al Gore made all those pie in the sky proposals for using the prosperity we once enjoyed wasn't it George Bush who said "Well, if this were a spending contest I'd loose."
Well, I guess that counts as a big lie now doesn't it!
Very few conservatives are happy with the way Bush has spent money like a drunken sailor. Regardless the point was that historically candidates running as liberals rarely get elected.
What is a liberal? The definition of conservatism is for government to do less, to be conservative. So when you propose anything more than less or the least you instantly become a liberal. But conservatives have set the bar so low that I suppose public roads, medicare, social security and a five day work week would be labeled liberal by today's standard. Labeled, not because the ideas themselves are unreasonable but for the purpose of the label for political gain.
Going back to the 2000 campaign I remember people saying Gore was too complicated, he was boring his crowds. Assuming this was true which we now know to be suspect, these are complicated times. If you had to choose between accountants and one accountant says we can do it the simple way and save you a little money and the other says we can do it a complictated way, which might be alittle harder to explain, but save you alot of money, which would you choose?
I believe Government can be a powerful force for good. But as Judge Learned Hand once wrote, a concept will expand itself until it tests the very boundaries of reason.
As an informed public we have to get past the labels to analyze policy and practice or we will drive this country into the ground. Tucker Carlson, Rush Limbaugh and the like will have their houses and private guards. But where will you and I be?
Liberalism tends to use government programs to level the disparity between the wealthy and the poor. They use social programs to promote a government centered agenda. They believe government is the answer to all problems.
Conservatives believe in limited government. It is up to individual incentive and work to succeed. Government's purpose is to provide equal opportunity for all then get out of the way and allow individuals to prosper.
Liberalism creates dependancy on government. Conservatism creates a dependancy on one's self.
There's and old saying - "Give a man a fish. feed him for a day, Teach a man to fish, feed him for life."
"All I can say is thank God you are all gathered in this one little nest and that there aren't enough of you to make a difference."
Well, I guess if we can't "make a difference" then there is nothing to upset you. Your self-delusions are safe from scrutiny, polls, transcripts, audio clips, facts, etc.
"But what makes the Tucker segment noteworthy is not that it featured false, misleading, and oversimplified claims about a prominent progressive -- that happens all the time on cable news. "
Hillary is a "progressive?"
Yeah, I guess that means Hitler was a "Compassionate Conservative" too.
What we have in the US is a one party system with two right wings.
Wow, this really smacks of pre Iraq war spin-miestering. You know, the one where Cheney/Libby feed false WMD "intelligence" to The New York Times and then Rice cites the NY Times as impartial evidence for Iraqi WMD. Gerth cites The Hill in support of the eavesdropping but doesn't mention that The Hill got it from his book "Her Story."
I used to have respect for Tucker Carlson. Now, I think he is dangerous. He's dangerous because he, quite covincingly in my opinion, portrays himself as the impartial arbiter of politics. Yes he's conservative but not so conservative that he's crazy. I think this appeals to the "30 Somehtings" like myself who came of age during the Reagan presidency and can not seem to shake our Reagan Democratic roots. But Tucker showed his cards in his interview with Paul Waldman of Media Matters (of all people) when he called himself a "right winger." I think this was a naked moment for Tucker and we should all take it very seriously.
It's late, I'm tired and I still hold out hope for making it to church in the morning so I can pray for U.S. so I'm leaving but I'll be back and want to know how do we reach out to MSNBC to stop this madness.
Well as you'll find out the problem is more than MSNBC. As Foser points out. There's a large population which most here would be alined with politically, that don't question the liberal media label, but accept what they see as gospil, or nearly so. There is a certain increasing level of disgust at the news media. Not as much as I would have thought. Safetly producing a media that is politically balanced seems niether easy nor quickly done.
Being part of the discussion here is a good thing.
Welcome to our fight against the madness.
The more I see of Carlson, the more I think he may be more dangerous as a disseminator of misinformation than Coultergeist or that goon, Limbaugh. The only thing that can be said about those two deranged individuals is that no one will ever mistake them for being moderates. Carlson occasionally makes statements that could lead one to believe that he is not a rabid, frothing-at-the-mouth conservative. I have come to understand that these seemingly moderate statements only mask the fact that Carlson too is a far right wing ideologue. He shares with most right-wingers a pathological hatred of liberals, blind defense of Bush and an inability to confront reality. Add to that the whining manner in which he confronts non-conservative viewpoints and the fact that, like most of the right-wing, he is a serial interrupter, and what you come up with is an enormously annoying individual.
Fascinating, the thread goes off into the wild blue yonder with the rightwing whackjobs going after Gore instead of the lies and obsfucations of Tucker. BUT I am even more surprised at bothering with Tucker, since I think his show has about...what?
Thirty viewers?
Most his immediate family?
Now, if you're interested in finding inaccuracies, shouldn't you have been all over Al Gore for his inaccuracies about global warming? It seems to me that if you really care about the issue of global warming or of environmentalism, then you don't want someone to represent your cause who makes up facts. When someone makes up facts, as Gore does, and is hypocritical in his actions, then people don't take the problem seriously. I don't understand why people don't understand this.
"you don't want someone to represent your cause who makes up facts"
So right. We need a better representative-- someone who is not a Vietnam veteran, U.S. Senator, Vice-President, popular-vote-winner, Academy Award winner, best -selling author, Nobel Prize winner and whose conclusions are shared by a majority of scientists.
TUCKER CARLSON is a sad excuse for a human. He hates and hates for hate sake. Maybe in this lifetime someone will be able to talk as fast as he does and get him to be quiet - of course I would settle if he would get off the TELEVISION and make a living some other way. Hstred in this nation is full force and he is leading the charge, next to Chris Matthews.