Bush bashes PBS (again), and The New York Times helps
What a strange coincidence that the Bush administration recently submitted the largest funding cut ever proposed for public broadcasting, and next week, PBS' distinguished Frontline series will mark the fifth anniversary of the Iraq invasion by airing Bush's War, which PBS describes as television's definitive documentary analysis of the war. The program reportedly draws from 40 separate war-related Frontline reports aired over the last five years. I have not previewed the television event, but I doubt that Bush aides, not to mention most Americans, will draw much comfort from what they see.
So, yes, the timing between the Frontline airing and the massive budget cuts is curious, but also accidental, since the Bush administration has been attacking PBS' funding for years, and in 2005 actually helped plot a public -- and bogus -- campaign to rid public broadcasting of its alleged liberal bias. And to be accurate, Bush now proposes to curb the funding set aside for the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, the government-created umbrella organization that doles out tens of millions of dollars annually for public television and radio programming. Frontline, in fact, does not receive direct CPB funding.
Still, the juxtaposition of the White House's draconian cuts penciled in for PBS, just when the award-winning Frontline program aims its painstaking reporting at the Iraq war, remains a telling one. And it helps to remind us, as Bush prepares his final exit, just how contemptuous this president has been of journalism in general, and especially of the thoughtful, independent brand practiced at PBS.
So I understand why Bush takes cheap shots at PBS. But what's The New York Times' excuse?
If enacted, President Bush's budget proposal to Congress would reduce CPB's funding for 2009 and 2010 by 56 percent. Specifically, Bush proposes cutting half of the $400 million already appropriated for the CPB's 2009 budget, cut an additional $220 million slated for the next year, and then eliminate the entire $483 million appropriation for fiscal 2011. The CPB is usually financed three years ahead of time to insulate the system from politics, which, of course, is deeply ironic considering the never-ending game of politics Bush has played with the funding process.
That doesn't mean public broadcasting would automatically go dark. That's because stations have other funding sources, such as corporate underwriting, foundation grants, and donations from individual viewer and listeners. (About 15 percent of total PBS revenue comes from Congress via the CPB.) But the draconian cuts would make public broadcasting's task much more difficult and would especially sting outlets in rural locations that do not have as many alternate funding options and whose annual budget relies more heavily on the CPB's generosity.
Additionally, Bush would deny any funding for public radio and television's conversion from analog to digital broadcasting, a process that is federally mandated.
What makes Bush's swipe at public broadcasting so spiteful is that, thankfully, there's virtually no chance his cuts will be enacted in full. Bush is simply perpetuating this weird Beltway Kabuki dance where a Republican president, who has been incapable of tightening federal spending in any meaningful way, makes his annual decision that public broadcasting must shed huge portions of its budget in the name of trimming the federal budget. Then a bipartisan coalition forms within Congress to restore the funding cuts. Rather than call off this game after the fifth, sixth, or seventh year, Bush decided to up the stakes and take his biggest whack yet at public broadcasting.
The ritual is pointless and spiteful, but unfortunately, this year it picked up a quasi-endorsement from The New York Times in the form of a recent, above-the-fold cover piece in the newspaper's influential Sunday Arts & Leisure section headlined, "Is PBS Still Necessary?" The article, by writer-at-large Charles McGrath, echoed long-standing conservative talking points questioning the need for taxpayer-supported television since viewers today can choose from so many cable programs. "There are not only countless more channels to chose [sic] from now, but many offer the kind of stuff that in the past you could see only on public TV, and in at least some instances they do it better," he wrote.
There's certainly nothing improper about making that claim, as long as the argument is made well and made fairly. McGrath did neither. Instead, his one-sided piece, which included no original reporting and did not offer anyone from public broadcasting a chance to rebut his claim that it wasn't worth fighting Bush's latest funding cuts on PBS, really was a train wreck. There's no doubt that the Times' public editor, Clark Hoyt, should have addressed the journalistic deficiencies in the piece, which generated written responses from nearly 1,000 (mostly angry) Times readers. Consider the following:
- The article was built on the false and elitist premise that everybody has cable television. Not true. Tens of millions of American either can't afford, or choose not to pay, the ballooning monthly fees required to receive cable television, which means all those wonderful niche programming outlets McGrath rhapsodized about (i.e. the Discovery Channel) are of no use to those people.
- McGrath claimed there wasn't much need to fund public television because PBS' programming is no longer vibrant and it's losing its audience share. By contrast, McGrath compared PBS' programming woes to the vibrancy of National Public Radio, which McGrath stressed, was a "great[] success." But Bush wants to dismantle funding for both, regardless of whether they're successes or failures, so why the misleading comparison in the Times?
- McGrath failed to note that public broadcasting costs less than $1 per person, that polling consistently indicates Americans think it's a great value. And the Times writer never suggested how that federal money could be better spent by the government. In other words, what was the explicit benefit of dismantling public broadcasting? McGrath never offered an answer.
- The fact that McGrath actually compared the brief, 30-second corporate underwriting announcements that accompany some PBS programs to the 22 minutes of wall-to-wall commercials that fill up every cable television hour indicated how unserious his critique really was.
- Nowhere in his critical examination of the PBS line-up did McGrath mention any of its extensive and award-winning children's and educational programming.
- The patently contrarian piece was also at times distastefully flippant. Like when McGrath compared PBS on-air fundraisers to water-boarding, the torturous interrogation technique sometimes used on prisoners of war. Maybe it's just me, but I fail to see the humor.
The worse part though, came when McGrath addressed the news-gathering landscape:
If you're the sort of traditional PBS viewer who likes extended news broadcasts ... cable now offers channels devoted just to your interest. Cable is a little like the Internet in that respect: it siphons off the die-hards. Public television, meanwhile, more and more resembles everything else on TV.
According to McGrath, cable television's "extended news broadcasts" are now just like the news programs you see on PBS. Honestly, what cable feed is McGrath watching? Because it's certainly not the same one that beams CNN, MSNBC, and Fox News into my house around the clock. If McGrath's claim is that the cablers cover a lot of news, that is accurate, I suppose. But to claim there's no difference between CNN's The Situation Room or Fox News' Special Report and PBS' NewsHour is just silly. (MSNBC doesn't really have its own version of a nightly news program.) The first two, despite the occasional glimpse of intelligence on The Situation Room, really are relentlessly shallow in how they cover the news, as well as extraordinarily rigid in terms of the very narrow perimeter in which they dub events to be newsworthy.
But let's look beyond the evening newscasts and examine long-form news programs such as NOW and Bill Moyers Journal. McGrath didn't mention either of those stellar programs in his piece, but I'm assuming his claim that there's no difference between them and what you can find on cable still holds. Except that, of course, it's not accurate. Despite the fact CNN, MSNBC, and Fox News broadcast more than 2,000 hours each month, those PBS news programs -- broadcasting less than 10 hours each month, combined -- still manage to cover issues and topics, as well as conduct interviews with prominent guests, that the cable channels ignore.
For instance, here are descriptions of recent NOW installments, as taken from the program's website:
- "Will a Bush Administration effort open thousands of acres of public land to private development?"
- "How corporations are using the designation 'freelancer' to avoid paying benefits."
- "A pioneering collaboration of Republicans and Democrats on the environment."
- "How far will one oil company go to get the politics they want? A bribery scandal in Alaska."
- "As millions of homeowners face foreclosure, NOW investigates sleazy tactics of [mortgage lenders]."
- "A billionaire fights methamphetamine use in Montana."
Raise your hand if you've seen CNN, MSNBC, and Fox News devote significant chunks of uninterrupted air time in recent months to address those topics.
Meanwhile, over at Bill Moyers Journal, here's a look at some recent guest segments from the program's extended, insightful conservations regarding important topics of the day. In parentheses is the number of times that person has appeared anywhere on American television in the previous two years, according to Nexis:
- "Historian Nell Irvin Painter examines what history reveals about the current state of inequality in America." (0)
- "Sarah Chayes, author and former journalist who has been helping rebuild Afghanistan after the fall of the Taliban regime, with a look at the front lines of America's war there." (3)
- "Photographer Lori Grinker takes viewers to Amman, Jordan for a devastating look at the fate of Iraqis displaced by the conflict." (0)
- "Does America's $9 trillion federal debt mean we are mortgaging our future and jeopardizing individual savings, healthcare, and retirement for generations to come? Bill Moyers gets a reality check from Public Agenda's Scott Bittle (1) and Jean Johnson (0), co-authors of Where Does the Money Go? Your Guided Tour to the Federal Budget Crisis."
- "Is it time to rewrite the Constitution? Perspective from the University of Texas Law School's Sanford Levinson, author of Our Undemocratic Constitution." (0)
Also note that the Journal's Rick Karr has been providing some of the most in-depth reporting on the FCC's continued efforts to help consolidate major media ownership in this country. That's a news topic that traditional media outlets absolutely refuse to cover.
I'm not suggesting public broadcasting practices some sort of divine version of journalism, nor that it's above reproach. In fact, as Media Matters for America has detailed here, here, here, and here, it most certainly is not. (And I still don't understand how this journalism embarrassment ever made it on-air at PBS.)
But it is the only brand of journalism in this country that relies on the government for its funding and, based on its outstanding work, public broadcasting most certainly deserves that support. It also deserves the respect of the Bush administration, not to mention The New York Times.

















This is a public service announcement (without guitar)
The disappearing post glitch is happening again, but if you right click->open on the "next" they show.
Know Your Rights...
You have the right to free speech as long as your not dumb enough to actually try it. etc.
Sorry, but Joe Strummer is still greatly missed.
Ya gotta love Boehlert's knee jerk liberal reaction to proposed budget cuts; "And the Times writer never suggested how that federal money could be better spent by the government"
Gee, I know this is tough to get your arms around, but how about returning that federal money to those who earned it, the taxpayers? Novel idea.
Thank you, but I wasn't analyzing anything, just a comment.
:)
It's funny, but there are some people out there who even want to privatize our roads. Could you even imagine that? Every 200 yards you'd have to pay a toll, and all the directional signs would have ads above and below them...and how would we keep the directional signs the same, so everyone knows what they are? What if a company goes bankrupt, would no one be able to drive on those roads anymore?
Tommy, I agree, in that I think that you think that there are a lot of things that the Government shouldn't subsidize. However, PBS is not one of them. And besides, most of their money comes from tele-thons anyway.
Indiana has already privatized their toll roads (to a foreign corporation, no less), and Ohio is considering doing the same.
We've already seen how well privatizing prisons and schools (charter, not religious) have gone.
WOW, You are incredibly wrong.
I know cons cannot comprehend the notion of open and accountable government but y'all better learn quick. The Progressives are coming.
Return some 'excess' tax money to taxpayers? Like what Clinton did during his terms in office, you mean? Unlike what Bush has done during his terms in office, you mean?
Taxpayers had more money to spend in their pockets 10 years ago, inflation-adjusted, than they do today. That's a result of huge tax cuts to the richest of the rich and increases in state and local taxes for most of the rest of us as a result of Bush's policies.
With the huge deficits that Bush is running, anyone 60 or younger is going to have more money coming out of their pockets for decades to cover those interest payments on the deficit.
Given the most recent few years, Democrats are showing much more fiscal restraint that the Republicans have shown. Congress controlled by the Republicans only showed us that they were even worse at controlling their spending that the previous Democrats had been. Much worse. Look at the tenfold increase in earmarks versus the Democrats efforts to change the earmark program, for just one example.
Let's stay on topic: Bush's neocon knee jerk reaction to a network providing an objective assessment of his Iraq debacle is the topic here.
Any American above the age of 10 years old is fully aware Bush would dump millions of dollars into PBS if PBS agreed to be one of his propaganda outlets.
can we balance the budget first, Tommy? Pretty please?
And I'll say it again. We will never, in the real world, balance the budget with spending cuts. We will only do it the same way as last time, with tax increases on those who can afford it. And as last time showed, such a policy does not damage the economy in the slightest.
Why are we spending ANY taxpayer money on PBS? Is there something in our Constituton about funding public media? If their telethons can't bring in enough revenue pull the plug! Perhaps if they let us keep more of what we earned those who want PBS to continue would have some extra cash to contribute.
There are lots of programs that get government funding because it benefits the nation as a whole. This is one of them.
Unselfish people recognize that not every government program benefits all individuals specifically, but the benefit to some people makes this investment worthwhile to us as a nation.
I bet that Bush also thinks it's valuable, but he's just trying to make a point so logic be damned. A bipartisan group of lawmakers have shown that it's valuable to them; so valuable that the Republicans in that group have gone against Bush for one of the few times during his reign of terror.
Unselfish liberals that love government programs and tout their necessities at every opportunity, and urge the rest of us, who have the nerve to question their viability, to just shut up and stop being selfish....well, unless they send every spare penny of theirs back to those who administer these programs, their money is nowhere near where their mouth is.
Are you one of those unselfish liberals?
"and urge the rest of us, who have the nerve to question their viability,"
So where again, have you questioned the viability of PBS? All I have seen is some vapid phrase about giving that money back to the taxpayers.
If you actually want to discuss the merits of PBS having partial funding from our government, then let's go.
Personally, I think PBS is an up-standing journalistic pursuit of truth that doesn't have to answer to anyone. The paltry amount of money the government gives to PBS allows the programs on that channel to be free of interruption, allowing an unobstructed view of life in America and stories that matter to every American. Their pursuit of ultimate truth allows unfettered, raw information to be laid out before the American public, in which most news today has been filtered through the lens of profit. If it's not a scandal it's not worth noting, and the trivial and unimportant topics make it to the forefront in a "gotcha" format so that ad rates can be increased.
NPR is no different. Their commitment to good, quality journalism and great stories of American life have no equal in today's media.But let's face it, Tommy. We're not in trillions of dollars in debt because of PBS or NPR. Wishing for the de-funding of these programs is spitting in the wind. You know what I want my money back for? The Iraq war. What is it now, 20 grand a household? more? That was the last figure I heard, but it's been a while.
DB,
Bottleblonde expanded the discussion to unselfish people and government programs. I simply responded.
Understood...sorry, I have soft spot for national media...I listen and contribute to NPR regularly.
Though I do have to ask, why does the privatization of PBS and NPR get conservatives all hot and bothered? I mean, I understand your procilivity towards completely free markets devoid of regulation, but it's a really hot-button issue for some reason. Other than the laissez-faire capitalism you regularly ascribe to, what is it about NPR and PBS that gets you up in arms?
I only speak for myself, but it does not get me hot and bothered on any level......I listen to NPR on occasion, watch PBS once in awhile, unless the endless, chatty pledge breaks get so on my nerves I flip the channel, so I am basically indifferent to this whole issue. If you are a regular contributor and viewer, then I respect that - much worse ways to spend your time and money, that is for sure.
My initial response was just a comment on Boehlert's statement in his piece.
It has everything to do with squelching anything resembling real investigative journalism, because it is anathema to "movement conservatism". I once heard Sean Hannity admit that "advocacy journalism" is the new preferred model.
It all boils down to this:
“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.” —Joseph Goebbels
That's why conservatives hate PBS..... that's why Pavlov's dogs drool.
"". I once heard Sean Hannity admit that "advocacy journalism" is the new preferred model."
What is ironic about all of this is that advocacy journalism is what is largely practiced (outside of the BBC) in Europe. I find it uniquely American that objectivity in journalism is (was?) of the highest priority. In most cities in Europe, there are 5 or six papers, each a mouthpiece for the political party that they side with.
But I really don't think it's the preferred model, it's just that most people don't understand the difference anymore.
No, I simply followed the previous poster to whom I replying. He suggested that since there's nothing written in stone that says that our government has to support PBS we shouldn't be supporting them.
There are tons of things our government supports, like roads and schools that aren't in the Constitution. Unselfish people who might not individually benefit from those services benefit as a whole from those services.
Those are the kind of unselfish people I meant. It is mostly Democrats who care more about their neighbor than their pocketbook.
In being a Republican apologist, Tommy, you have once again looked at the obvious failure of our Republican-controlled government and pointed to the bushes and yelled,"Look! There's a liberal in there! I can sense it!"
But this is typical Repug nonsense as your retarded president has presided over the largerst, most out-of-control government mess in a century.
Hey, Tommy: How many PBS or NPR programs serving a given community could thrive on what your retarded president spends in a day in Iraq or Afghanistan?
How many children could be given the gift of a music education or math tutoring or how many bridges across the country could be replaced. Could Social Security's stablility be reirnforced?
The answer is etched in the guilty place of your mind, where you can sit in silence and say to yourself, "I helped make this nightmare a reality. And rather than trying to fix the mess I helped create, I actually have the cojones to poke at liberals hoping for a rise. I hope this just goes away and I don't have to take reponssibility for any of it."
The Republicans have controlled all branches of government for the past 8 years and worked to intimidate those that they didn't control and what do we have to show for it? Read the papers, if you can stand it. Watch a tv news program and you'll feel ill the rest of the evening. Every direction we turn has become a white-knuckle ride to Hell because of people like you and your retarded president.
And you have the unmitigated nerve to say anything about how liberals love their government programs while you helped build the biggest, fat-a$$ed, incompetent government ever to plague this country. With knuckleheads re-electing knuckleheads, I'm having a real hard time seeing your point about how liberals love their government programs. You mean Republicans don't like tax-cuts? Corporations don't like relaxed out-sourcing opportunities and government bail-outs?
You should be receiving Christmas cards from Haliburton!
knee jerk liberals
irritated liberals
unselfish liberals
Tommy: this will no doubt seem non sequitur but I must ask: Are you by any chance wearing a HotPockets® stained t-shirt with "It's hard to fly like an eagle when you are surrounded by turkeys!" silk-screened on the front and an America flag on the back?
Tommy, I just stopped to get gas on the way back from lunch. Next to me was a full size Chevy pickup (2500 HD, I know you're wondering).On the back window was a cartoon Eagle, and lettering; "Mess with my friends, my family or my freedom, and you mess with me"
On the tailgate, and American flag, and two simple words; "Let's Roll !"
I didn't see any Hot Pockets, but let me know next time you're wandering behind the Orange Curtain. We'll go get some Freedom Fries. ;0)
Don't kid yourself, the Bush Neocons know full well the value of Public Broadcasting. They know they gotta control the institutions that shape our shared culture, gotta control the message, they gotta catapult the propaganda to even keep up on discussions of ideas. These suckers coalesced under the fear flag of Ronald Reagan's welfare queen's, it ain't like they have any values.
Yeah, they know the value of controlling the Public Broadcasting System.
Why are we spending ANY taxpayer money on PBS?
Perhaps you should ask the rest of the world. The USA ranks 17th in per capita spending on public broadcasting. We also rank poorly in other areas such as health and education
Is there something in our Constituton about funding public media?
Surely you don't think that is a sensible argument. Why offer it? Good grief if we threw out everything not in the constitution we would go back to 1776. Don't you realize there is more rule "by the people for the people" than the starting document. We are not ruled by those dead men.
We are not ruled by those dead men.
It is indeed a sensible argument. You should have learned in American History that those dead men did not intend for us to never change. They developed and ammendment process to allow for change. If the nation as a whole wants something the ammendment process works. If a select few can't sell their programs they are forced upon us in spending bills. Over half of the federal budget is not authorized by constitiutional mandate but on the whim of some politician hoping to fill his coffers.
If enough people want Public Broadcasting supported by the federal government make it constutitional - else leave it to telethons and contributions.
If a select few can't sell their programs they are forced upon us in spending bills. Over half of the federal budget is not authorized by constitiutional mandate but on the whim of some politician hoping to fill his coffers.
So if its' not in the Constitution or the amendments it's not valid or legal but only results from whim?
Why even bother to have congressional representatives? No spending bills are "forced upon you". They enacted by hopefully a legal process which is defined and controlled by all three branches of our government. We in the USA claim we think that is best way to do it.
If enough people want Public Broadcasting supported by the federal government make it constutitional.
A brief reminder. A law or program doesn't have to be IN the constition to be legal. When a new law or program is proposed, the Supreme Court doesn't check to make sure it's in the constitution, they check to see if it is forbidden by the constitution. If you don't want PBS finded in spite of your representatives voting for it, you must pass an amendment to the Constitution which forbids it.
Perhaps more funding for public education would help your understanding.
A brief reminder. A law or program doesn't have to be IN the constition to be legal.
I didn't suggest it did - you did in your previous post.. The constitution outlines the charter of the federal government - the bill of rights limits it's powers. Nowhere in its charter does it even suggest a government supported press - in fact there is some strong language against it.
This is a legitimate question. One issue that I am aware of that hasn't been addressed in the posts is the fact that information is power. There were serious concerns in the 20's and 30's along this issue mainly due to the consolidation of media (newspaper) outlets (that "tell" the public how it is and frame the issues in the way they choose) into the hands of essentially one man: Rupert Mur... I mean William Henry Hearst. Through the financial and editorial pressure Hearst was able to bring against dissent and his use of yellow journalism, some people argue that he leveraged unparalleled civilian power in American policy. (By the way, both Citizen Kane and Gail Wynand from Ayn Rand's The Fountainhead are said to be inspired by this man).
I believe some of the thinking for public broadcasting came from this history. The idea is essentially to give voice to people, i.e. the public. Is this a liberal idea. Hell yes. Other posters have suggested that liberal means partisan, though. I mean should we get rid of the liberal idea of democracy? I love democracy, don't you?!!
DEMS_SOL: Is there something in our Constituton about funding public media? If their telethons can't bring in enough revenue pull the plug! Perhaps if they let us keep more of what we earned those who want PBS to continue would have some extra cash to contribute.
Oh laissez-faire and Keynesian economics, the failed bastard children of the industrial revolution. How do I loathe thee? By such logic, maybe we also should stop subsidizing farmers and the energy industry. Then we could spend more money on food and gas. Of course the prices for those commodities would also go up. Wouldn't hurt the rich, but it would take more out of the budget of those people who are just meeting those necessities.
Maybe while we're at it, we can stop funding the DOD and privatize that as well. We can change our name from the United States of America to Warlords R Us! Yes! By the way, could you please point me to the place in the constitution where stealth bombers are mentioned?
It's called public television for a reason - not everyone can afford cable. How about funnelling the FCC fines for someone swearing or showing a naked butt cheek to PBS?
According to Boehlert, 15% of PBS budget is from the government. Perhaps that deficit could be made up by advertisers?
This from the heritage foundation:
Nerzog,
I fail to see your point.
Of course not. Some pimply faced think tank dweeb would come up with statistics to show that 70% of poor people have access to shoes and canned tuna.... proving that they really aren't THAT poor.
Nerzog,
I fail to see your point. :-)
After all, isn't patriotism today defined either by wearing a cheesy flag pin or going shopping?
I've heard a lot of these poor people have electricity and indoor plumbing.Poor, my arse!
BTW, King, I didn't mention with my Tommy sighting at the gas station, I had my Jingometer in my truck, and accidentally left the power on. I may need some parts, judging by the smoke pouring from the circuit boards.
The following are facts about persons defined as "poor" by the Census Bureau, taken from various government reports:
DB, Sorry for the confusion. The two statistics are not directly related. It seems to me that the 15% shortfall if the government pulls out, could be made up by advertisers.
My post referencing that 62% of the poor have cable or satellite so the argument that the poor need PBS over the airwaves seems to me to be diminished by that amount. It does not correlate with the first statement.
I wonder if there is any study regarding the viewing habits of the poor on PBS? No doubt many children, including my own have watched cartoons and Sesame Street. (I may be wrong, but I do believe Sesame Street is self supporting.) I would like to see some statistics as to who actually watches PBS.
Like most everyone, I have enjoyed shows on PBS. The most recent being Planet Earth. On HD it is amazing! I have no doubt it could have been sold to the networks or cable. Philosophically, as a conservative, I do not see why a television station in this day and age, (I think I have over 200 channels now,) has to be underwritten by the feds. I wonder the same about the Endowment to the Arts.
Getting back to the stats, since this part of the thread was veering off topic regarding the poor, I thought I'd fill in on the rest of those statistics. Sorry.
"Eighty percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, in 1970, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning."
Did 80% of poor households have air conditioning in 197o? I seriously doubt it. Air conditioning was a luxury in 1970, but not today. You're tossing out unrelated numbers that prove nothing. Did you get these stats from Rush Limbaugh?
Nerzog,
I disagree. Yes, air-conditioning was not too long ago a luxury. Now most people who are considered poor have a/c. The connection is that even the poor have what used to be considered luxuries.
As I stated earlier, those statistics were from the Heritage Foundation.
see:
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/bg2064.cfmElectricity was a luxury once. Indoor toilets were a luxury once. Refrigerators were once considered a luxury. Your point?
This juxtaposition of unrelated statistics is typical of Right Wing Propaganda, which is a specialty of the Heritage Foundation.
Nerzog, You are following the rule that when you don't have an argument, attack the opponent. Of course you are entitled to your opinion. But simply saying they mislead without any proof only diminishes your point. If you have any substantive criticism regarding the Heritiage Foundation or it their statistics are in error, or if you can explain how it is used out of context, I'm all ears.
With regards to your post about people using electricity, etc. Many of the world's truly poor do not have electricity or running water and many are subject to famine and starvation. Those people are truly poor. People who own cars, homes, color tv's, cable or satellite, and are not starving, are rich by comparison.
Usually, someone who falls below the poverty level due to loss of a job, illness and medical bills or balloon mortgage payments has all of those things you mentioned. They could very well be home owners who worked all of their lives and are now destitute.
How does their owning a DVD player, or COLOR TV (do you really know anyone, anywhere in this country other than Tommy who still has B&W?) make them more than poor.
Do you know the resale value of a DVD player? I don't know what kind of computer your using, but I know that even if it's new today, within a year, it will be worth little more than a doorstop is worth.
Consumer goods are cheap, plentiful and all made in God forsaken countries. Isn't that the idea of our global economy and our economic system (second to none I might add); (I'm not sure if a semi-colon is warranted here, but I haven't typed one in awhile, so sorry if it's wrong) for every citizen to be able to afford some level of comfort?
worrier,
I don't have the statistics in front of me of those who fall into the poor category due to illness or job loss. But I seem to recall that many, if not most, recover and pull themselves out of the lower quintile in a relatively short period of time.
I do agree that when it happens it is tragic. I am not saying that nothing should be done for them, or that I cannot help them. Right now I am contributing to a fund at my church for a family where both parents have been diagnosed with different types of cancers. The father cannot work and the mother only part time. They live in a neighborhood with houses that range from $200,000 to $300,000. They have five kids, two in college and three in highschool. They need financial assistance even with insurance.
The point is that people we consider poor have so much more than the poor as the truly poor in other countries. God bless America and God bless all the great people who help those in need.
It sounds like Tommy has one sweet ride. The only thing that truck was missing was the official state license to hunt terrorists.
My Jingometer is a gun! Loaded for Libs!
But, no, I didn't see a gun rack, but the back window was tinted pretty dark. Not too many of the gun racks here in the SoCal 'burbs, the monster truck Uberpatriots are more inclined to have dirt bikes and fishing boats behind them.
But it is the only brand of journalism in this country that relies on the government for its funding and, based on its outstanding work, public broadcasting most certainly deserves that support.
NO - it doesn't. It needs to be self sufficient.
Then it would just be like everything else, and then possibly tainted by the people who are paying for it.
PBS is a great service, as is NPR, it's just that you either fail to use it, or see it. Maybe you should watch it a little more, or listen to it a little more, and you'd hear more or less what real journalism is.
"It needs to be self sufficient."
Does it? they seem to be doing fine now, and I don't really mind the extra 83 cents in taxes I pay each year for these services.
Whats wrong with the page, its all out of whack. Oh and I dont buy the census bureau post from earlier.
I would love to see what that 43% of poor peoples homes look like. I grew up in a place where you could buy a house for less than 30 thousand. I've seen them as low as 15. Anyone could buy those houses, but they were crap holes.
The problem isn't how well the poor in America live, its the enormous gap between the poor and the ultra rich. You know, two Americas and all that.
There is a gap between rich and poor, but it is not a chasm. People are moving up from being poor constantly.
People in the bottom fifth of the income tax filers in 1996 had their incomes increase on average, by 91% by 2005.
The poor as a group are determined by their income. But people in that group do not necessarily stay there year in and year out. Having said that even with the poor, they are a lot better off than their income indicates. That is because their income figures do not take into account the fact that 78% of their economic resources they had for that year were from in-kind transfers or cash transfers. So 78% of their "income" is not even being counted.
The bottom line is that most poor are not as poor in the traditional sense as those in foreign lands. As a group even our poor are rich, or at least much better off, when compared with the rest of the world.
Thank you Mr. Antoinette.
Just remember how the French treated your ancestor.
Nowhere have I said not to help the poor. I am simply providing statistics regarding the poor and their ability of many who were poor to rise out of poverty. That is a good thing.
I find these ad hominum attacks, although some funny, an attempt at diverting the argument away from the points I made.
AA - But people in that group do not necessarily stay there year in and year out.
While I guess that is somewhat accurate, the most recent study of class mobility shows the USA lags behind most of Europe & Canada when it comes to such mobility.
International comparisons indicate that intergenerational mobility in Britain is of the same order of magnitude as in the US, but that these countries are substantially less mobile than Canada and the Nordic countries. Germany also looks to be more mobile than the UK and US, but a small sample size prevents us drawing a firm conclusion.
http://cep.lse.ac.uk/about/news/IntergenerationalMobility.pdf
And this is for Mr. 11 Herbs & Spices...
You have the right to food and money. As long as you don't mind a little humiliation, investigation...
I'd forgotten that line. These stats AA is dragging out show up here once in a while, I thought everybody was on to them by now.
One is new to me; That 78% of the income of the poor is not counted because it's in kind or cash ? I wish I'd known about that when I was poor.
My favorite is the bottom fifth increasing their income to almost double in 10 years. That means a 16 year-old fast food employee making $4.50/hr is now a 26 year old possibly making $8.50/hr. That's close to 18k !
USA !USA! USA!
If that person making $8 plus change an hour keeps his nose to the grindstone. By the time he's forty, he'll be making fifteen or sixteen bucks an hour.
God has truly blessed America.
I've been to most of the major cities in this country and there are enough pigeons and squirrels for anyone who has the gumption to go hunting for them. For those in Washington DC where firearms are prohibited, there's always trapping. And squirrel makes a damned fine hat too. I've never had as good a night's sleep as the times I've slept on a pillow stuffed with pigeon feathers.
And after they run out.
LET THEM EAT RAT!
And you can quote me.
Col.
The statistics I quoted are based on those in the lowest quintile of taxpayers over the age of 25. I found the statistics in a Thomas Sowell column. There may be some earning minimum wage, but the statistics also include those who earn a lot more.
I appreciate your point about poor wage-earners. However 58% of the bottom quintile moved up to a higher quintile within the decade. I think you'll agree with me that is a good thing. Simply to make up examples of a minimum-wage earner may be emotionally satisfying, but does not really prove your point about the poor as a group.
Nearly 58 percent of those in the bottom quintile had moved up within the decade, into a higher quintile. Income inequality widens only if quintile populations are static. They are dynamic. Another statistical artifact: Big gainers in the top quintile pull it upward, as they cannot jump quintiles upward; this widens the gap versus lower quintiles, where big earners move up to a new level.Hudson Institute scholar Diana-Furchtgott-Roth notes that in 2006 the bottom income quintile households had 1.7 residents and one earner, whereas households in the high-income quintile had 3.2 residents and 2.1 taxpayers. In the past 20 years low-income household size has shrunk 12 percent, versus 3 percent for the top group. These changes reflect senior longevity, divorces and single-parent households--the latter two are more prevalent in lower-income strata. Her excellent article has more comparison data on household spending.
AA are you John Stossel?
I ask because a few years back, Stossel and his moustache were interviewing people on line at a food bank. He asked those waiting if they owned things like a VCR or microwave. And when most said "yes" he used it as proof of how good the poor of the USA have it really good compared to others around the world.
No I am not John Stossel.
However I find it interesting that he backs up my argument.
Hey, nobody wants to be poor. Everyone who can, should help the poor. As a country we do a marvelous but inefficient job of helping.
Education is the key to escaping poverty.
Well, if you don't know him I would suggest you not take pleasure in having parallel views. He has been caught more than once broadcasting distrotions or outright lies. Check out the google for his segment stating organics were more dangerous than regularly grown produce.
And your contention about education is close to right. The key to class mobility (see study I linked to) is money. Money is the key to education in the USA.
Old,
I didn't say I didn't know him. I've read many of his articles, his latest book and actually seen him speak. He may not be perfect but I agree with many of his observations.
"As a country we do a marvelous but inefficient job..."
AA, you are a treasure. And if you ever figure out what "Ad Hominem" and "Attacking the Messenger" really mean, I'm going to miss all the laughs.
Thank you.
Col.
Laugh all you want. I find it interesting that you are quick to make fun when you really have nothing else to say. But that is not uncommon around here. Have a great day.
Oh to bring back those heady days when Mr.Moyer was spewing unbiased vitriol on PBS...
Yes, keep moving folks, there is no bias at this publicly funded site...
I never watch PBS (or any other TV, for that matter), but I listen to NPR so that I will know what the enemy is thinking. What's not blatantly anti-American is inane.
The one I love - Nina Totenberg. There's a good enough reason to shut NPR down - I don't watch PBS so I don't know if she's on there as well.
But if she is, they should fire her immediately. Any organization that would pay money for her journalistic efforts or those of Bill Moyers has to be brain dead. If PBS gets 83 cents of my tax money a year, that 84 cents too much.
Because they are a bunch of hogslop journalists (with their snouts in the public trough) they don't have to try to maintain any kind of objectivity, or even pretend to. The only cure is to defund them, lock, stock and trough. It can't happen a day too soon.