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Eric Boehlert
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Karl Rove's pundit problem

May 20, 2008 1:08 pm ET

If Rep. John Conyers (D-MI) holds true to his recent promise to slap Karl Rove with a contempt of Congress charge for refusing to answer questions about explosive abuse-of-power allegations and whether Rove unleashed the Justice Department on a prominent Alabama Democrat, it will be interesting to see how Rove's newfound media employers at Newsweek, Fox News, and The Wall Street Journal handle the story.

It will also be worth noting how Beltway opinion-makers in the press, who in recent weeks have been praising Rove for his second act as a full-time pundit, deal with the messy development.

When Rove began lining up media jobs following his 2007 White House departure, there were howls of protest about such an obvious and controversial partisan being embraced by media outlets as a news analyst.

The politics-to-press revolving door is not good for journalism. (We need more reporters, not pundits.) But the trend is not going away, and history shows the media are far more willing to hire partisan Republicans than Democrats.

My beef with the Rove hiring, though, centers on two issues related specifically to him. The first is about the still-unfolding saga out of Alabama (more on that below) and the way Rove's new employers consistently downplay that troubling story. As do journalists now busy handing out kudos to Rove for his talking-head talent.

But secondly, and perhaps more importantly, why is Rove being held up as a paragon of political analysis at the very moment the Republican president he helped mold, and the Republican Congress he helped steer, are both in complete free falls? I don't remember the mainstream media clamoring to sign up the political insights of Hamilton Jordan just as President Jimmy Carter plummeted in the polls.

According to the most recent surveys, President Bush's current second-term debacle exceeds any other White House calamity in modern times. Yet the man who made it all possible, the "brains" behind the president who has become "radioactive" inside his own party, is toasted in the press as a political wise man.

Since when do the spoils go to the loser?

And do editors or producers at Newsweek or The Wall Street Journal or Fox News even broach the topic with Rove and ask him to pontificate, in print or on the air, about why the Republican Party that he helped shape for much of the last decade is now spiraling downward, and why Bush has made history as the most disliked president ever to sit in the Oval Office? Or do news executives not want to highlight to their readers and viewers the fact that their vaunted political expert, whose insights are advertised as being so valuable, actually helped design the GOP's modern-day Edsel?

It makes no sense, but I can't say I'm surprised by the lack of reality that surrounds Rove and the glowing reviews he's collecting from the press.

It's simply a continuation of the gooey, ongoing crush the Beltway press has had on Rove, who for years was credited in the media for building the Republican Party into a sleek, hardball-playing, election-winning vessel that could out-race the dawdling Democrat boat with ease. Rove, the press cheered, had literally cracked the code to winning elections, and poor Democrats were powerless to slow down his juggernaut.

Forget that Bush has suffered a historic plummet in the polls, bottoming out at a depth never before measured with modern polling. None of that matters, because as MSNBC's Norah O'Donnell proclaimed just last week, Rove "is a brilliant political tactician."

That has been the divined media narrative on Rove for years, and nothing will change it. Not even the fact that Republican pros now publicly admit the number one challenge facing the party come November is Bush's dismal standing among most Americans. "As the head figure of the Republican brand, President Bush continues to flounder," Rep. Tom Davis (R-VA) wrote to his colleagues last week, stressing the political climate for Republicans "is the worst since Watergate."

The carnage come November could be historic, especially in the wake of the GOP's stunning Mississippi loss last week in the kind of congressional district Democrats don't even usually compete in, let alone win by eight points. The Republican Party spent more $1 million trying to salvage the race. As the Politico noted:

Many House GOP operatives are privately predicting that the party could easily lose up to 20 seats this fall.

Combined with the 30 seats that the GOP lost in 2006, that would leave the party facing a 70-vote deficit against Democrats in the House -- a state of powerlessness reminiscent of Republicans' long wilderness years in the 1960s and '70s.

And for that, all-star pundit Karl Rove deserves the blame. Why won't the media assign it?

Sweet Home Alabama

Meanwhile, the Alabama saga continues to gather momentum. The short version is that former Gov. Don Siegelman, a Democrat who was convicted on corruption charges in 2006, has accused Rove of engineering the prosecution through the Justice Department in order to make sure Siegelman could not run again for re-election. The politician also claims Rove helped steal the bitterly contested 2002 Alabama governor's election, which Siegelman lost by just 3,000 votes. Siegelman led as returns came in on Election Day and throughout the night. It was only when the ballot count from Baldwin County changed drastically from its initial tally that the Democrat lost.

Siegelman claims the incidents were part of a sinister, by-any-means-necessary effort by Rove to politicize the Justice Department to ensure a permanent Republican majority. ("I think this will make Watergate look like child's play," Siegelman insists.)

Backing up the heart of Siegelman's claim about the political prosecution is a longtime Republican attorney from Alabama named Dana Jill Simpson. She signed an affidavit last year and claimed she took part in a conference call with Alabama Republican operatives where Rove's role in Siegelman's prosecution was discussed.

Both Siegelman, currently released from prison on bond following an appeals court ruling, and Simpson have appeared on 60 Minutes to make their claims against Rove. (For more details on Siegelman, go here, here, or here.)

The Alabama story has been picked up by congressional Democrats, who are already investigating what role Rove played in the Bush administration's unprecedented firing of eight U.S. attorneys. Conyers, chairman of the Judiciary Committee, requested that Rove testify about Siegelman.

Despite the fact that he claims to have had absolutely no involvement in the matter, Rove has refused to testify. (Wouldn't that be the easiest type of testimony to give?) Instead, Rove offered to speak privately with committee staff off the record and with no transcript. The problem with that kind of arrangement, as Salon.com's Joe Conason wrote in 2007, is that the Valerie Plame leak investigation has already highlighted how "Rove is a proven liar who cannot be trusted to tell the truth even when he is under oath, unless and until he is directly threatened with the prospect of prison time."

Still, most the media have been too busy toasting Rove the pundit -- they love his disarming on-air charm! -- to dwell on the looming controversy. (MSNBC's Dan Abrams and CBS' 60 Minutes have proven to be two key exceptions.) When The New York Times and The Washington Post ran lengthy, flattering profiles of Rove, totaling more than 2,000 words, the newspapers set aside just 68 words, combined, to reference the Siegelman story.

As for Rove's new media employers, I searched Nexis and could find only a single sentence published in Newsweek that referenced the allegations Siegelman has lodged against Rove. At Fox News, there have been, at best, just a handful of passing references that appeared in Nexis in the last month. And the Journal has devoted virtually no coverage to Siegelman's allegations against Rove. A search of the Factiva database turned up one reference in a story about an Alabama TV station blacking out the 60 Minutes broadcast in which Siegelman's claims were investigated.

The press is too busy employing -- and praising -- Rove to notice his mounting legal jeopardy. I can't help thinking that the media reaction would be much different if a Democratic adviser were at the center of attention. I'm thinking specifically about 1997, when longtime Clinton presidential adviser George Stephanopoulos left the administration and took a job at ABC News as a full-time pundit. What if just months after arriving at ABC News, it was alleged that Stephanopoulos had been at the center of an abuse-of-power scandal within the Clinton administration, as has Rove? Would the press have reacted the same way? Let's play that out a bit and see.

First, a quick history lesson in how the overcaffeinated political press operated during the Clinton '90s. Webster Hubbell was a longtime friend of Bill and Hillary Clinton's. Hubbell was named associate attorney general at the outset of Clinton's first term but had to step down when investigators found that while previously working at the Rose Law firm in Little Rock (where Hillary also worked), Hubbell had billed clients for work that was never performed and that Hubbell never reported the earnings to the IRS. Hubbell was sentenced to 21 months in prison for tax evasion.

Throughout the 1990s, Hubbell repeatedly clashed with independent counsel Kenneth Starr, who pressed the Clinton friend for more damning information about the ongoing Whitewater-related investigations. Over time, the press joined Starr's conspiratorial obsession that Hubbell was the key to unraveling the Clinton's criminal empire. The press went even further, suggesting the Clintons were somehow muzzling Hubbell (hush money?) from talking about their business dealings. In the end, Hubbell was of no use to Starr because he had no damning inside information about the Clintons.

Now, let's tweak the script just a bit to make the Hubbell story more analogous to the current Rove-Siegelman controversy and see what it would have looked like if Stephanopoulos, having just joined ABC News as a pundit, had been at the center of the allegations.

Let's say that while sitting inside the Cumberland Federal Correctional Institution in Maryland, Hubbell claimed that Stephanopoulos had served as his go-between with the Clintons as they discussed their conspiracy of silence. Then a Democratic attorney from Arkansas and longtime party loyalist released a signed affidavit in which she claimed to have overheard a conference call where party operatives made open reference to the fact that Stephanopoulos was applying pressure to the Justice Department to make sure it backed off any further Hubbell prosecutions, thereby ensuring Hubbell wouldn't become a political problem for the White House.

Imagine the Democratic whistle-blower then went on 60 Minutes and made her charges on national television. Then Hubbell was released on bond while a retrial was contemplated, and he went on 60 Minutes and claimed Stephanopoulos, in coordination with the Clinton White House and Justice Department, had tried to silence him. And then the Republican-controlled House demanded that Stephanopoulos testify under oath about the allegations, but Stephanopoulos refused to cooperate, thereby initiating possible contempt of Congress charges.

If all of that took place, do you think A) ABC News would have kept Stephanopoulos on the air as a political pundit, the way Fox News, Newsweek, and The Wall Street Journal have kept Rove on their payrolls? B) ABC News would have essentially boycotted reporting on Hubbell's allegations, the way Fox News, Newsweek, and the Journal have mostly stayed clear of Rove's Siegelman mess? And/or C) The Washington Post and The New York Times would have published glowing reviews about what an insightful pundit Stephanopoulos had turned out to be, while basically ignoring the explosive allegations made by Hubbell and the Democratic attorney in Arkansas?

The media's double standard seems obvious.

To recap: The Siegelman saga gains momentum while the GOP disintegrates, and Karl Rove continues to harvest media kudos as a masterful political tactician.

Which one of those three just doesn't belong?

Update: On May 22, Conyers' House Judiciary Committee subpoenaed Rove. The subpoena reportedly orders him to testify about the Siegelman saga before the House panel on July 10.

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    • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 1:19 pm ET)
         

      Whoever wants to hire Karl Rove has every right to do so.  If one doesn't want to watch or read his analysis, people have every right not to do so.  I don't.

      To whine about his employment or the praise some have heaped upon him is well, whining.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by BottleBlonde (May 20, 2008 1:28 pm ET)
           

        Tommy has the strawman argument down pat, doesn't he?

        No one said that any media source should be denied the right to hire Karl Rove.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 1:29 pm ET)
             
          I don't believe I said that Sue, perhaps you should fight your own strawman.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by pete592 (May 20, 2008 1:51 pm ET)
               
            Then why did you feel the need to reaffirm the right?
            Report Abuse
            • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 1:52 pm ET)
                 
              A friendly reminder...
              Report Abuse
              • Author by BottleBlonde (May 20, 2008 1:55 pm ET)
                   
                No, a strawman to distract us.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 1:59 pm ET)
                     
                  Wow, and I guess it's working, you keep responding.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by JLyons (May 20, 2008 2:13 pm ET)
                       
                    It is quite funny to see how Sue always appears (Notthatgeorge, Ellie717) every few months with different names. The nastyness though is something we all can pick out.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by mary59 (May 20, 2008 3:08 pm ET)
                         
                      I don't really see any nastiness in bottleblonde's posts, and whether you're right about her past screen names or not, would prefer responding to whatever someone is posting now.

                      Karl Rove as a political analyst on the tee vee is just ducky. I hope he is on the air broadcasting when they come to arrest him for the Siegleman affair.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by JLyons (May 20, 2008 3:16 pm ET)
                           
                        You do not know Sue/Ellie /Notthatgeorge/Bottleblonde. She makes Karl Rove look like Mother Theresa.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by mary59 (May 20, 2008 3:28 pm ET)
                             
                          Karl Rove is responsible for helping disenfranchise thousands of voters. In the case of Don Siegleman, he and his political operatives stole the election in the Alabama governor's race in the middle of the night. While this was happening, he continued his operation to find something on Siegleman that he could be prosecuted for. When nothing was found, they trumped up bogus charges and got the judge and district attorney (all buddies) to convict him. The whole sordid tale is a horror. Part of it:

                          http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1627427,00.html

                          For you to compare Rove's work to someone posting on a web site is beyond amazing.
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by JLyons (May 20, 2008 3:28 pm ET)
                               

                            Mary, it is called humor. Obviously you have none. If you want me to defend Karl Rove who stole an election find someone else to debate that with you. Geez.

                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by mary59 (May 20, 2008 3:45 pm ET)
                                 
                              Sorry I didn't get your humor. But at least I can use contractions.
                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by JLyons (May 20, 2008 3:48 pm ET)
                                   
                                So now you are an English Teacher?
                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by dbeden4153 (May 20, 2008 4:03 pm ET)
                                     

                                  Mary is our resident English Professor.

                                  She also writes a mean limerick. 

                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by JLyons (May 20, 2008 4:04 pm ET)
                                       
                                    Impressive.
                                    Report Abuse
                                    • Author by BottleBlonde (May 23, 2008 1:49 am ET)
                                         

                                      What's impressive is how delusional you must be to believe that your multiple screen name usage is not evident to all around you.

                                      What's impressive is that you, like your twin Sueeld, think that you can make a nasty, untrue statement (like that a previous poster is comparable to Karl Rove, and mean it) and when you get it pointed out how ridiculous that comparison is, you then attack the person who pointed it out and say that they suffer from a lack of a sense of humor.

                                      Report Abuse
                        • Author by sportsguydave (May 21, 2008 12:28 am ET)
                             

                          Come on, JLyons. This is lame even by your standards. Last I checked, she wasn't responsible for foisting the worst president in history on America.

                           

                           

                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by BottleBlonde (May 21, 2008 12:58 am ET)
                               
                            Even worse is that others more dedicated to this site than I am have determined that JLYON and SUEELD and BOBTHEP and probably several others are all the same poster. One major piece of evidence is the lack of any use of contractions by all the posters. Another is the lack of common sense, and another is the contrarian nature of most of their posts followed by denials of any ulterior motives when that is pointed out.
                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by Brabantio (May 21, 2008 8:10 am ET)
                                 
                              The nature of their posts are strikingly similar.  Occasionally JLyons and Sue disagree, but Bob seems completely identical to Sue.  Sue also got caught posting under two names in the same thread a while back, so that is an indicator as well.
                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by Sueelldd (May 21, 2008 10:11 am ET)
                                   

                                Brab, do you have proof of that?  If you are going to accuse me of something, get the proof. Also show the link where I was "caught".

                                Otherwise shut the F up.  I have never been involved in this "Sue, Ellie crap. As for BobtheP, him and I have major differences if you followed especially on Iraq and Obama.

                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by Brabantio (May 21, 2008 11:43 am ET)
                                     

                                  Check out the 361-380 page, Casey.

                                  You have shown yourself to be involved in sockpuppetry, so spare us all the phony indignation.  You can't really blame people for noting that you, JLyons and Bob have incredibly similar attitudes, styles and syntax, especially when you're so concerns with the incarnations of sue/ellie. 

                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by Sueelldd (May 21, 2008 12:03 pm ET)
                                       
                                    Oh Please, get a life.
                                    Report Abuse
                                    • Author by Brabantio (May 21, 2008 12:09 pm ET)
                                         
                                      Nice refutation of the evidence!  Maybe you should "shut the F up" now.
                                      Report Abuse
                                      • Author by Sueelldd (May 21, 2008 12:13 pm ET)
                                           
                                        There is no evidence but thanks for trying. 
                                        Report Abuse
                                        • Author by Sueelldd (May 21, 2008 12:15 pm ET)
                                             

                                          I was clearly making fun of how everyone was calling everyone "Sue".

                                          Brab, you are a good poster, stick to your positions they are good and stop smearing people.

                                          Report Abuse
                                          • Author by Brabantio (May 21, 2008 12:19 pm ET)
                                               

                                            No, that's not true.  You were answering in place of Casey, which is clearly shown.  The part where you and Casey went back and forth about it was deleted, but I remember you weren't able to explain your post then either.

                                            You got busted, so you have to deal with the credibility issues that follow.  Sorry. 

                                            Report Abuse
                                            • Author by Sueelldd (May 21, 2008 12:22 pm ET)
                                                 

                                              That was explained throughout, everyone was calling these people Sue.  Please continue to harp on that though, I am going to todays threads to discuss issues.

                                              Report Abuse
                                              • Author by Brabantio (May 21, 2008 12:47 pm ET)
                                                   

                                                "Sue how did I miss the point, I agree with all of that. It is an outrage that he would even mention that wedding. Why did she not serve in Iraq?" - Caseyspring

                                                Next post:"I assumed that your first post was being sarcastic..." - Nomobush

                                                Next post:"Sue I was not being sarcastic, most Americans could care less about the Bush Twins..." - Sueeld

                                                Nomo was talking to Casey.  You replied to Nomo, saying that you were not being sarcastic.  That has nothing to do with the name "Sue" at all, so your explanation doesn't make the slightest bit of sense.  You clearly responded to the post you intended to, just under the wrong name.  If you had responded to Casey as if you thought he was talking to you, that would be a different story.

                                                 

                                                Report Abuse
                                          • Author by Brabantio (May 21, 2008 12:20 pm ET)
                                               
                                            Thanks for the kind words, btw, but an accurate and reasonable portrayal of your actions is not a "smear".
                                            Report Abuse
                                            • Author by Sueelldd (May 21, 2008 12:23 pm ET)
                                                 
                                              I think it is a smear, I think your better than that based on your posts. I will leave it at that.
                                              Report Abuse
                                              • Author by mescal (May 22, 2008 2:34 am ET)
                                                   

                                                Sueld

                                                What exactly IS your definition of the word "smear", anyway?

                                                You seem, based on your frequent use of the word, to confuse criticism with smearing.

                                                Well? 

                                                Report Abuse
                            • Author by Sueelldd (May 21, 2008 10:11 am ET)
                                 
                              Bottlebonde, can you provide the names of these "other more dedicated posters". I am very curious.
                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by BottleBlonde (May 23, 2008 1:31 am ET)
                                   

                                No, you are not curious. You are frightened of being outed.

                                The lack of any contractions in your posts, the omnipresent jumping in to threads solely to protect and echo one another, and the ridiculous attacks on people while completely misunderstanding the differences between a smear and fair criticism ties you all together.

                                Oh, and the almost complete lack of any valuable contribution to any discussion besides the occasional "yeah, great point" kind of post.

                                And lastly, the fact that you know that you and Bobthep have different opinions on any issue. I doubt that anyone else here could describe any position that Bobthep has, or that you could not make a similar comment about any other infrequent poster, but somehow you know that you and he have opposing opinions? Don't you know that we know that sockpuppets often intentionally try to appear to be different people by throwing in different opinions at times?

                                Report Abuse
              • Author by pete592 (May 20, 2008 2:04 pm ET)
                   

                And why do you feel that MMFA needs to be reminded of it?

                It's not out of a desire to patronize, gosh no.

                Report Abuse
                • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 2:05 pm ET)
                     
                  Well, when an entire thread is devoted to complaining about a media hire, then perhaps such a reminder is helpful.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by pete592 (May 20, 2008 2:16 pm ET)
                       
                    Yes, COMPLAINING.  A complaint is not an infringement of rights by any stretch, but it sure is fun to try and make it look like one, isn't it?
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 2:18 pm ET)
                         
                      I don't believe I said anyone's rights are being infringed upon, but if you can't accept a little criticism of a topic thread here, perhaps it is you who wants a little rights infringement.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by pete592 (May 20, 2008 2:38 pm ET)
                           

                        And I didn't say that you said it.  I said that you found it necessary to reaffirm the right.  I merely wanted to know why.

                        What does it mean when you have to reaffirm rights in the face of a complaint?  What other reason is there other than you feel that rights are being infringed or are in danger of being infringed upon?

                        You have tried over and over again to paint MMFA as an organization that does not believe in freedom and the First Amendment, and over and over again you have failed. 

                        When your criticism is completely baseless and unfounded, don't start "whining" when someone criticizes it. 

                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 2:42 pm ET)
                             

                          Pete, Please link to a post of mine where I have stated that MMFA does not "believe in freedom and the First Amendment".

                          How ridiculous.

                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by pete592 (May 20, 2008 3:05 pm ET)
                               
                            I didn't accuse you of stating it, I accused you of characterizing MMFA in such a way through your constant, patronzing reaffirmation of peoples' rights.  What other reason could there be for 'reminding' them?
                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 3:09 pm ET)
                                 
                              So I just paint MMFA that way without actually saying it?  Sorry, I don't play those word parsing games like many of you engage in regularly.  If I somehow wanted to say it, I wouldn't subtle hide behind such paint.  I would say it.
                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 3:10 pm ET)
                                   
                                subtly, not subtle
                                Report Abuse
                              • Author by pete592 (May 20, 2008 3:34 pm ET)
                                   
                                Yes, you are playing games, including the one you're playing now by not coming clean and answering the overall question:  Why is it necessary to reaffirm the rights of those that MMFA targets?  You simply won't answer it and will instead hobble around it and cherry-pick my posts in an effort to martyr yourself.
                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 3:38 pm ET)
                                     
                                  I answered it when you first asked it, you just didn't like the answer......so you overreact and haul out some idiotic accusation saying I think MMFA is against freedoms and the First Amendment in order to try and invalidate any criticism of the threads here.......you don't think I've seen it all before?  I have Pete.
                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by Governor (May 20, 2008 3:43 pm ET)
                                       
                                    Just so you know, Tommy, you have the right to dodge the question, but lack the ability to do so effectively.
                                    Report Abuse
                                    • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 3:55 pm ET)
                                         

                                      Oh Governor, I specifically answered Pete's question, "A friendly reminder.."

                                      Just because it's not the one he wanted, or you wanted, that is too bad. If you want the answer to be the one you want, then just ask yourself......or ignore me, which you adamantly said you'd do Governor, but you can't, can you?  Why?

                                      Report Abuse
                                      • Author by Governor (May 20, 2008 4:06 pm ET)
                                           
                                        That you think you can somehow reaffirm people's rights just by posting them here is laudable and laughable.  I can laugh more than laud, right?
                                        Report Abuse
                                        • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 4:09 pm ET)
                                             

                                          What's laughable is the way you spin yourself around to the point of complete and utter senselessness........like only you can do, hahaha!

                                          Take it on the road Governor, you're too precious for just us here..... 

                                          Report Abuse
                                          • Author by jeter2 (May 20, 2008 4:12 pm ET)
                                               

                                            You can always tell when Gov needs a nap.

                                            Report Abuse
                                          • Author by Governor (May 20, 2008 4:16 pm ET)
                                               
                                            Keep up the great work!  You're closing in on 30 posts in a single thread! Reaffirm people's right to redefine whining for partisan reasons if you're running out of material.
                                            Report Abuse
                                  • Author by pete592 (May 20, 2008 3:52 pm ET)
                                       
                                    You pretty much answered it by putting a complaint on the same plane as an infringement of rights.  I didn't think you were serious, but now it seems you were.
                                    Report Abuse
                                    • Author by Governor (May 20, 2008 4:01 pm ET)
                                         
                                      Yes, buy keep in mind that questioning the praising of Rove’s punditry while his party disintegrating is whining, so there you go. 
                                      Report Abuse
                                    • Author by jeter2 (May 20, 2008 4:03 pm ET)
                                         

                                      Pete,

                                      Tommy simply said that anyone who wanted to hire Rove had the right to do so, whether this annoyed others or not.

                                      He was not saying that there was some sort of infringement of any constitutional rights involved here, just a matter of personal preference or desire if you will, to hire whomever one wants..

                                      Report Abuse
                                      • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 4:05 pm ET)
                                           
                                        Thanks Jeter, exactly.  You got it, why can't others?
                                        Report Abuse
                                        • Author by MoonbatYouBet (May 20, 2008 4:44 pm ET)
                                             

                                          Yeah, sure.  So you were stating that companies had the right to hire Rove for no reason at all?  Nobody questioned that.  The column questions the wisdom and propriety of doing so and the presentation of Rove as a pundit.  You didn't comment on that, you commented on the right of Rove's employers to hire him.

                                          So, either you just like to post tangential near non sequitors for no apparent reason or you were trying to imply that someone was questioning that right.  Which are you, an irrational threadjacker or, since you've stated you weren't trying to imply anything with your comment, a liar?

                                          Report Abuse
                                          • Author by Brabantio (May 20, 2008 4:50 pm ET)
                                               
                                            Exactly, his defense seems to be that he makes comments that have absolutely no relevance whatsoever.  Just a reminder about something that nobody was talking about, and something that nobody would talk about anyway.
                                            Report Abuse
                                          • Author by onionhead (May 21, 2008 12:43 pm ET)
                                               
                                            It is interesting to point out that Tommy has posted on this thread well after you made this comment and did not comment under the above posting (moonbat's that is). I think he ignored your argument because he knows you are correct and so decided to continue to twist other people's words around.
                                            Report Abuse
                                            • Author by roundhouse (May 21, 2008 2:22 pm ET)
                                                 
                                              That wousld be my conclusion as well.
                                              Report Abuse
                                              • Author by BottleBlonde (May 23, 2008 1:35 am ET)
                                                   
                                                Yes, and his reply to me had nothing to do with my point, and was only a baseless attack claiming that I'm someone I'm not.
                                                Report Abuse
                                      • Author by dbeden4153 (May 20, 2008 4:05 pm ET)
                                           

                                        "just a matter of personal preference or desire if you will, to hire whomever one wants.."

                                        That's not the right to do something...a right is not a personal preference. 

                                        Report Abuse
                                        • Author by jeter2 (May 20, 2008 4:10 pm ET)
                                             

                                          I have the right to vote is a constitutional right.

                                          I have the right to vote for anyone I want is a personal right or preference or desire.

                                          Please don't start parsing, slicing & dicing. It is what it is.

                                          Report Abuse
                                          • Author by Governor (May 20, 2008 4:18 pm ET)
                                               
                                            But you weren't discussing voting.
                                            Report Abuse
                                            • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 4:41 pm ET)
                                                 
                                              Gov, If you don't understand the analogy, then don't display your ignorance so readily.
                                              Report Abuse
                                              • Author by Governor (May 20, 2008 4:45 pm ET)
                                                   
                                                Nicely done, T.  Oh, and I understand that you're inclined to give Jeter a pass for not knowing the difference between parsing and parsley for purely partisan reasons, so there’s no need to explain that smudge on your nose.
                                                Report Abuse
                                                • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 4:46 pm ET)
                                                     
                                                  Jeter, oh Jeter.......do you have any idea what he means here, because I don't.
                                                  Report Abuse
                                                  • Author by jeter2 (May 20, 2008 4:52 pm ET)
                                                       

                                                    Sounds like a lot of gobbledygook to me Tommy.

                                                    But Gov needs a nap so we need to excuse him I guess.

                                                    Report Abuse
                                                    • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 4:58 pm ET)
                                                         
                                                      J, And it's so funny how everyone keeps insisting how ridiculous I am here, or off topic, or derailing the thread, yet they just can't help but jump in, now Brabantio and Moonbat have joined in........yet they discount everything I have said, as if they can persuade me otherwise, they are nothing if not predictable.
                                                      Report Abuse
                                                      • Author by Governor (May 20, 2008 5:02 pm ET)
                                                           

                                                        J, And it's so funny how everyone keeps insisting how ridiculous I am here, or off topic, or derailing the thread, yet they just can't help but jump in, now Brabantio and Moonbat have joined in........yet they discount everything I have said, as if they can persuade me otherwise, they are nothing if not predictable.

                                                         

                                                        I think it looks better in bold. 

                                                        Report Abuse
                                                      • Author by MoonbatYouBet (May 20, 2008 5:03 pm ET)
                                                           
                                                        I have no intention of persuading you of anything.  Much like someone writing a column about the faults of hiring Karl Rove as any sort of broadcast pundit, I merely wish to point out to anyone with an open mind the folly of taking your words at anything close to face value.
                                                        Report Abuse
                                                      • Author by jeter2 (May 20, 2008 5:23 pm ET)
                                                           

                                                        Boehlert has written an entire column complaining about the hiring of Rove. You simply said: Whoever wants to hire Karl Rove has every right to do so.

                                                        I'm not sure why this perfectly reasonable remark [on your part] has them all hot & bothered.

                                                        Saying someone has the right to hire anyone they want is a reasonable counter to the complaint of someone getting hired.

                                                        Report Abuse
                                                        • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 5:29 pm ET)
                                                             

                                                          Really, it was a simple statement of fact and it has driven them up the wall.....go figure.  

                                                          But it isn't about that at all, it's about Karl Rove, actually.  The left hates him with so much seething contempt and the idea that any media outlet would hire him is what is driving their emotional arguments here.  They want him jailed and the key tossed in the Potomac, yet he is thumbing their noses at them on Fox and elsewhere, so they are taking out their ire on me, and you......that is what this is about.  So anyone who dares say that the media has the right to hire him just fuels that anger and all arrows point at us in lieu of Rove who won't take their calls, or something.

                                                          Good thing we have thick skin and can take it. 

                                                          Report Abuse
                                                        • Author by Brabantio (May 20, 2008 5:31 pm ET)
                                                             

                                                          It suggests that the article says that they didn't have the right to hire him.

                                                          If you express your point of view to someone and they respond with "As a patriotic American I have to disagree with you", how would you take that?  It obviously suggests that your views make you unpatriotic, or something of the sort.  Otherwise, it's a complete non sequitur.  Would you believe that it's just to remind you that the person is a patriotic American?  If it's not relevant, then there was no purpose for stating it.

                                                          Report Abuse
                                                          • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 5:36 pm ET)
                                                               

                                                            Good god Brab, It suggests nothing of the sort, it was a simple reminder that the media has every right to do so.  Why so many of you are stumbling over yourselves on this simple, elementary point is mind-boggling.

                                                            And I get accused or derailing threads??. If you can't get it, never mind.  You don't want too. 

                                                            Report Abuse
                                                            • Author by Brabantio (May 20, 2008 5:41 pm ET)
                                                                 
                                                              Fine, so you were saying something that you knew had no relevance to the article, and reminding people of something that you know nobody would even argue anyway.  Why?  Nobody knows, but apparently that's just how you roll.
                                                              Report Abuse
                                                              • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 5:47 pm ET)
                                                                   
                                                                No relevance?  Are you kidding, it was the jist of the entire whining piece by Boehlert.  You're slipping.
                                                                Report Abuse
                                                                • Author by Col. Harlan Sanders (May 20, 2008 6:43 pm ET)
                                                                     

                                                                  Wow, Tommy, this is funny. You and Jeter have used "hot & bothered" "driven up the wall" and "emotional" to describe what you see as some sort of imagined hysteria on the part of other posters.

                                                                  In about the first 5 posts( before the 100 or so that followed), I commented that you did this; stated the obvious(that "right" that nobody was arguing against), as an excuse to call MMFA whiners.

                                                                  It's what you do every day, I wonder why anybody expects you to face it today.

                                                                  Report Abuse
                                                                  • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 6:49 pm ET)
                                                                       

                                                                    Oh Colonel, I don't need an excuse to call MMFA whiners.  When threads such as this are posted, there is no need for an excuse, the thread speaks for itself, but as I said, I am here for "A friendly reminder".

                                                                    I own the whining label often, why others can't do it is puzzling, oh well, liberals are a tough nut to crack I guess, but I keep trying, and whining......you have a good night now, hear? 

                                                                    Report Abuse
                                                                    • Author by Governor (May 20, 2008 6:54 pm ET)
                                                                         
                                                                      Whoever wants to whine about whining has every right to do so.  If one doesn't want to whine or whine about whining, people have every right not to do so.  I don't.
                                                                      Report Abuse
                                                                • Author by Brabantio (May 20, 2008 7:21 pm ET)
                                                                     

                                                                  "It suggests that the article says that they didn't have the right to hire him."

                                                                  "Good god Brab, It suggests nothing of the sort, it was a simple reminder that the media has every right to do so"

                                                                  Then, "No relevance?  Are you kidding, it was the jist of the entire whining piece by Boehlert."

                                                                  So your comment didn't suggest that Boehlert thinks they didn't have the right to hire him, but it was relevant because that's the jist of the entire piece.  Nice work.

                                                                  In any event, it can't be relevant to the piece and just a simple reminder at the same time.  If it goes to the core of the piece then it's more than a reminder, I would think.  And if you are saying that Boehlert is saying that, then I wonder why you aren't bound to provide evidence of it the way you expect people to provide evidence when they describe your behavior.

                                                                  Report Abuse
                                              • Author by jeter2 (May 20, 2008 4:49 pm ET)
                                                   

                                                Gov, If you don't understand the analogy, then don't display your ignorance so readily.

                                                Thanks Tommy.

                                                I read Gov's post & thought...can he really be that numb [yes he can] & do I really want to take the time to explain an analogy [of which he still wouldn't get]

                                                Please let's find his binky and put him down for a nap ;-)

                                                Report Abuse
                                                • Author by Governor (May 20, 2008 5:07 pm ET)
                                                     
                                                  How's that internet connection working out today in that fancy hotel you're staying at?  You mentioned "the gay lobby" in yesterday’s CNN thread... is it nice? 
                                                  Report Abuse
                                                  • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 5:09 pm ET)
                                                       
                                                    Jeter, Hook up the 1000 volts, Gov is losing it.......
                                                    Report Abuse
                                                    • Author by Governor (May 20, 2008 6:23 pm ET)
                                                         
                                                      I applaud you for not calling me a "retard" this time.  Perhaps you're learning.
                                                      Report Abuse
                                          • Author by dbeden4153 (May 20, 2008 4:21 pm ET)
                                               

                                            Jeter, I am not parsing, you are conflating.  a right and a preference are not compatible.  Sorry.

                                            The definition you are using of "right":

                                            a. Something that is due to a person or governmental body by law, tradition, or nature.

                                            And you're right, voting is a right by law, but who you vote for is not a personal right.  It's a preference.   

                                            Report Abuse
                                            • Author by jeter2 (May 20, 2008 4:40 pm ET)
                                                 

                                              Oh come on.

                                              I have the right to ignore you. How are you gonna parse that?

                                              That is my personal preference/desire...and yes my right.

                                              BTW, I'm not gonna ignore you. That's also my right ;-)

                                              Report Abuse
                                              • Author by dbeden4153 (May 20, 2008 4:51 pm ET)
                                                   
                                                Ok, I can see what you're saying, but a personal preference and a right are still not the same, technically (I know it's word-parsing, but humor me, I was an English major.)
                                                Report Abuse
                                                • Author by jeter2 (May 20, 2008 4:59 pm ET)
                                                     

                                                  Ok technically I will defer to an English major :-)

                                                  But I'm using "right" as most would use in everyday language, even though it might be technically incorrect.

                                                  Now let's have a cyber handshake & remain cyber buddies.

                                                  Report Abuse
                                      • Author by HughG (May 21, 2008 7:11 am ET)
                                           

                                        But Jeter, why on Murdoch's Private Earth would Tommy feel the need to remind people that Faux News has the right to hire Karl Rove (and, corollarily, that Rove has the right to speak), if not to imply that someone (perhaps...I don't know...MMFA?) was somehow questioning that right?

                                        Ain't nobody here thinks that Faux and Rove don't have that right. [The point, duh, is that giving Rove a forum for his propaganda without noting his likely ethical lapses (and treating him like a political guru without noting his manifest political failures) feeds the right-wing agenda. Does Tommy not recognize that? Don't you??] So Tommy's post was, at best, a misdirection and a distraction. Many here are not entirely surprised.

                                        Report Abuse
                                    • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 4:04 pm ET)
                                         

                                      A complaint about misinformation in the media is worthy and legitimate. A complaint about the media hiring someone you don't like warrants "a friendly reminder" about said media's perfect right to do so.

                                      Hope that helps. 

                                      Report Abuse
                                      • Author by Brabantio (May 20, 2008 4:40 pm ET)
                                           

                                        But nobody said that they didn't have the right to hire him, so nobody needs the "reminder".  One can argue that someone is wrong to do something without saying that they don't have the right to do it.  Isn't that true?

                                        Report Abuse
                                        • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 4:45 pm ET)
                                             

                                          So Boehlert is saying the media is "wrong" to hire Rove, and I reminded him, and the rest of you, that it is their perfect right to do so.  So simple.

                                          How many more times does this have to be explained?  If you don't like the reasoning behind it, fine - it's my opinion.

                                          Oops...... 

                                          Report Abuse
                                          • Author by Brabantio (May 20, 2008 4:48 pm ET)
                                               
                                            "Wrong" is the opposite of "right", not "a right".  You can be wrong while doing something you have the right to do.  If that's not true, why not?  And if it is, then what does anyone's "rights" have to do with the article?
                                            Report Abuse
                                            • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 5:04 pm ET)
                                                 

                                              If you have "a right" to do something, then whether it's right or wrong is a matter of opinion. It's Boehlert's opinion that hiring Rove is wrong, and I reminded him, and the rest of you, once again, that they have "a right" to do so.  

                                              So how many more times do you want to on this merry-go-round? 

                                              Report Abuse
                                              • Author by Brabantio (May 20, 2008 5:10 pm ET)
                                                   

                                                It's an opinion piece, so we all know it's his opinion.  That didn't really answer the question at all.

                                                There's any number of times that you've criticized people's posts on here, would you really accept "I have the right to post..." as a legitimate and relevant reply?

                                                Report Abuse
                                                • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 5:14 pm ET)
                                                     
                                                  I accept it, absolutely.  If I don't like it, that's my problem.  You are the one who has such a hard time accepting answers you don't like.  So me thinks you're projecting a little......
                                                  Report Abuse
                                                  • Author by Brabantio (May 20, 2008 5:17 pm ET)
                                                       
                                                    I guess the next time you're criticizing what someone says here, they can just say they have the right to post here and that'll be the end of the conversation.  If you say so.
                                                    Report Abuse
                                                    • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 5:19 pm ET)
                                                         

                                                      Absolutely, it took you how many years to get that from me?

                                                      Try it anytime, please. 

                                                      Report Abuse
                                                      • Author by Brabantio (May 20, 2008 5:24 pm ET)
                                                           

                                                        But since you know that they have the right to post already, why question anything anyone says here?  Do you really need to be reminded?

                                                        You've been told countless times that MMfA has the right to post whatever they want, yet we get WITH from you every day.  If knowing that they have the right to do it ends the conversation, why doesn't it just stop you from starting it in the first place?  Just curious how that works.

                                                        Report Abuse
                                                        • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 5:39 pm ET)
                                                             
                                                          Then why don't you write to them and tell them to do away with the comments section?  
                                                          Report Abuse
                                                          • Author by Brabantio (May 20, 2008 5:44 pm ET)
                                                               
                                                            Because having the "right" to do something doesn't actually end the conversation, maybe?  I think the question is why don't you write that email, since that's your position.
                                                            Report Abuse
                                                            • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 5:48 pm ET)
                                                                 
                                                              I want to do away with the comments section?  Wow.......
                                                              Report Abuse
                                                              • Author by Brabantio (May 20, 2008 7:23 pm ET)
                                                                   
                                                                You're the one who suggested it when I described your position to you.  If you didn't think it was a comment appropriate to that, why did you say it?
                                                                Report Abuse
                                      • Author by pete592 (May 20, 2008 4:48 pm ET)
                                           

                                        Again, you're making this all about what MMFA wants, demands, or likes.  What about the needs of the people for factual information and credible, reasoned commentary and debate?  Boehlert can't possibly be concerned about that could he?

                                        Boehlert laid out plenty of reasons as to why any self-respecting media organization would not hire Karl Rove or give him any airtime. 

                                        Yes, it's safe to assume that Boehlert does not like Rove, but he's also offering plenty of justification as to why anyone who cares about bringing credible sources of information and opinion before the people would do themselves a favor by passing on Rove and relegating him to the right-wing, street-corner lunatic fringe where he belongs. 

                                        Boehlerts piece goes far beyond a simple, "I don't like Rove, so no one should hire him," and it most definitely was not, "I don't like Rove, so the media has no right to hire him."

                                        As I said in my own post below, I have my own problems with the piece, but Boehlert more than makes the case of why Rove belongs anywhere but the media.   

                                         

                                        Report Abuse
                                        • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 4:54 pm ET)
                                             

                                          What about ultra partisan and supremely biased Keith Olbermann, who is not a pundit guest, but hosts his own cable show?  Is Boehlert concerned about the people's needs where he is concerned, as he is just as partisan as Rove, and arguably has far greater reach and influence for one long hour each day, not to mention his election night coverage. No, of course, because MMFA, Boehlert and Olbermann operate under the same ideological umbrella, thereby their partisan efforts are welcomed, not labeled a "pundit problem".

                                          Don't give me that baloney about people's rights, this is strictly partisan political agenda pushing, so unless we see a Boehlert column about Olbermann, I stand behind my posts here. 

                                          Report Abuse
                                          • Author by Brabantio (May 20, 2008 5:04 pm ET)
                                               

                                            By that logic nobody can complain about any conservative in the media unless they denounce Olbermann emphatically.  That seems somewhat unreasonable.

                                            If Boehlert lists reasons, then he has reasons.  If he's actually making an argument you can't dismiss it just because he has an ideology.  Very few websites are genuinely non-partisan, yet you can still respect the views contained on any of the others depending on whether there is a legitimate argument being made there or not.

                                            Report Abuse
                                            • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 5:08 pm ET)
                                                 

                                              Well, Pete said it was about the needs of the people for factual and credible information, and you just pooh poohed that by saying very few websites are non-partisan, essentially saying screw those people with those needs, it ain't gonna happen.

                                              So take it up with him then. 

                                              Report Abuse
                                              • Author by Brabantio (May 20, 2008 5:15 pm ET)
                                                   

                                                Where did the assumption that partisan websites can't be credible and factual come from?  My point was that you evaluate them based on the strength of the arguments they make, and some are better than others.  You can't just dismiss anyone with an ideology on that basis alone.

                                                Without your assumption thrown into the mix, I don't see how I "pooh-poohed" anything he said. 

                                                Report Abuse
                                                • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 5:23 pm ET)
                                                     
                                                  So do you think Fox is credible, because they are quite partisan? Or is it just the left wing partisan outfits that are credible?
                                                  Report Abuse
                                                  • Author by Brabantio (May 20, 2008 5:33 pm ET)
                                                       
                                                    No, Fox is not credible, because of the myriad of examples of bias and misinformation.  A mainstream news outlet shouldn't have an ideology anyway, we're talking about individuals and websites.  As for left-wing sites, it depends on the site, doesn't it?  Some are more credible than others, obviously.
                                                    Report Abuse
                                                    • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 5:38 pm ET)
                                                         
                                                      Newsflash - partisan outfits are the epitome of bias and skewed out of context information, aka misinformation, that is why they are called partisan.......you can't not get that?
                                                      Report Abuse
                                                      • Author by Brabantio (May 20, 2008 5:47 pm ET)
                                                           
                                                        No, partisan is just having an ideology.  It doesn't assert dishonesty.  You can have a viewpoint and make credible arguments at the same time.
                                                        Report Abuse
                                                        • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 5:50 pm ET)
                                                             
                                                          I never said one word about dishonesty, you did. I repeated what you said, bias and misinformation.  Now you're expanding the definition because you can't make your point.  Don't get pissed at me for that.
                                                          Report Abuse
                                                          • Author by Brabantio (May 20, 2008 7:28 pm ET)
                                                               

                                                            "partisan outfits are the epitome of bias and skewed out of context information, aka misinformation, that is why they are called partisan..."

                                                            So providing "skewed out of context information" is not dishonest?  What are you talking about?  Partisan outfits who misinform are just doing it accidentally, or what? 

                                                            Report Abuse
                                          • Author by Governor (May 20, 2008 5:16 pm ET)
                                               

                                            I stand behind my posts here.

                                             

                                            All 52 of them?! 

                                            Report Abuse
                                          • Author by pete592 (May 20, 2008 5:31 pm ET)
                                               

                                            "What about ultra partisan and supremely biased Keith Olbermann?"

                                            Is Olbermann working for any candidate's campaign?

                                            Was Olbermann ever embroiled in a scandal to exact political revenge?

                                            Is Olbermann being accused in a plot to get a state governor thrown out of office and into jail? 

                                            Did Olbermann's name ever come up in a mass firing of prosecutors for political reasons? 

                                            Did Olbermann ever become a political liability to an elected official, forcing his "resignation"?

                                            Report Abuse
                                            • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 5:53 pm ET)
                                                 
                                              So now you want to argue degree of partisanship?  That's rich.
                                              Report Abuse
                                              • Author by pete592 (May 20, 2008 6:24 pm ET)
                                                   

                                                Actually, the first should have included, "and failed to disclose it?"

                                                The next three are not about partisanship, they're about the rule of law.

                                                The last one, I'll give you that.  

                                                Oh, here's a couple more...

                                                Did Oblermann ever violate laws governing presidential records?

                                                Did Olbermann ever refuse to testify under oath? 

                                                Report Abuse
                                                • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 6:32 pm ET)
                                                     

                                                  Pete,

                                                  If I came on these boards and went on about how partisan you were, and how it's just not right that you post here because your opinions are way too skewed to the left.......and then someone else responded to me saying that you have every right to post here, regardless, would you not say that person's response to me was perfectly appropriate as it pertains to my bellyaching?

                                                  Of course you would, and you should. 

                                                  Report Abuse
                                                  • Author by pete592 (May 20, 2008 7:41 pm ET)
                                                       

                                                    Oh great, let's shift gears and drag out the old hypothetical, hypocrisy WAHHHmbulance again.  You and Jeter should be in awe of Boehlert for using the same thing in this piece with the Stephanopoulos hypothesis.  Yet you both still found a way to "whine" about it.

                                                    I was not questioning your "appropriateness" in reaffirming the rights of the media, I was questioning your reasons, just as Boehlert is questioning why the trend is toward hiring more partisan Republicans than Democrats to be pundits, and questioning what makes Rove a paragon of political analysis.

                                                    I would not view your criticism of, "it's just not right," as an infringement of my right to post here because I'm smart enough to know that only MMFA has the power to make that determination.  For this reason, someone else's rush to defend my right to post would not be appropriate simply because there was no infringement to begin with. 

                                                    This is also why I find your constant self-martyrdom so ridiculous, because no posters, no matter how pontificating or irrational they may be, are infringing on your right to post criticisms of MMFA.  Only the MMFA moderators can take that right away from you.

                                                    Again you insist on conflating the bowels of MMFA's forum with the media.  This is what makes your hypothetical completely inapplicable.  Is MMFA performing a vast public disservice by allowing anyone of unknown career credentials, reputation and partisan leanings the ability to post their comments here?  Is MMFA, either knowingly or otherwise, stacking the deck in favor of one political side vs. the other when it comes to who gets to post comments?

                                                    Report Abuse
                                          • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (May 21, 2008 10:08 am ET)
                                               

                                            What about ultra partisan and supremely biased Keith Olbermann

                                            Funny, I don't remember seeing Olbermann's name anywhere in the column, but I will give you a "friendly reminder" that NBC has the right to hire anyone they want. 

                                            Report Abuse
                          • Author by Governor (May 20, 2008 3:05 pm ET)
                               
                            Off-topic I know, but can you please quote a sentence or two from this item that you consider to be "whining"?
                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 3:12 pm ET)
                                 

                              Start with "Karl Rove's pundit problem", and follow it alllllllllll the waaaaaaay down to "Which one of those three just doesn't belong?" 

                              Take your pick Governor. 

                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by Governor (May 20, 2008 3:17 pm ET)
                                   
                                Your definition of "whine" seems quite partisan to me.  I thought you denounced that sort of thing.
                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 3:27 pm ET)
                                     
                                  Does it seem that way to you?  Oh dear, I am sorry to hear that.  Oh well.
                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by Governor (May 20, 2008 3:33 pm ET)
                                       

                                    Oh well.

                                     

                                    Oh well? 

                                    Report Abuse
                                  • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (May 21, 2008 10:10 am ET)
                                       

                                    When did Tommy start posting like Scarlett O'Hara with all the "Oh, Governor" and the "Oh, dear"s?

                                    Or is he just channeling Winnie the Pooh?

                                    As Winnie said when Eeyore got lost, "Oh, bother, where art thou?"

                                    Report Abuse
                      • Author by carlileb5935 (May 20, 2008 7:43 pm ET)
                           

                        I don't believe I said anyone's rights are being infringed upon, but if you can't accept a little criticism of a topic thread here, perhaps it is you who wants a little rights infringement.

                        But Tommy, you haven't once said why Boehlert is wrong. All you've done is call him a whiner. 

                        How is this article incorrect? 

                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (May 21, 2008 10:11 am ET)
                             
                          Don't bother waiting for an answer to that one.
                          Report Abuse
          • Author by BottleBlonde (May 20, 2008 1:55 pm ET)
               

            "Whoever wants to hire Karl Rove has every right to do so."

            Tommy

            "No one said that any media source should be denied the right to hire Karl Rove."

            Me

            "I don't believe I said that."

            Tommy

            "Yes you did. It's a strawman to say that there's any issue with anyone denying anyone else the right to hire Karl Rove."

            Me

            Report Abuse
            • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 1:58 pm ET)
                 
              Oh Sue, take your whine to the MMFA staffers, or particularly Boehlert, who writes an entire thread whining about the media hiring Karl Rove and giving him a platform.
              Report Abuse
            • Author by jeter2 (May 20, 2008 2:29 pm ET)
                 

              When Rove began lining up media jobs following his 2007 White House departure, there were howls of protest about such an obvious and controversial partisan being embraced by media outlets as a news analyst.

              My beef with the Rove hiring, though, centers on two issues related specifically to him.

              Boehlert remarks that there were HOWLS OF PROTEST & his own beef about Rove being hired seems to kill your argument. Seems to me he doesn't think Rove should be hired... his whining is predicated on his belief that an alleged partisan should NOT be hired as a pundit.

              Funny MSNBC is made up of almost entirely partisan Democratic biased hosts & has an unfair balance of Democratic biased partisan pundits appearing on their network. But of course that's ok...eh Sue?

              BTW Sue aka BottleBlonde, how many times have you reincarnated yourself here? I've lost count.

              Report Abuse
              • Author by JLyons (May 20, 2008 3:29 pm ET)
                   
                Jeter, i think this is 4 times, but there may have been more.  The nastyness just comes right out in her posts.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by mescal (May 21, 2008 3:07 am ET)
                     
                  It certainly comes out in yours.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by BottleBlonde (May 23, 2008 1:45 am ET)
                       

                    Yeah, and did you notice all the examples of nastyness (sic) in my posts?

                    You didn't? How strange. JLYONS said my posts were full of nastyness (sic). You mean that JLYONS was not telling the truth?

                    Report Abuse
        • Author by Col. Harlan Sanders (May 20, 2008 1:32 pm ET)
             

          Right, BB, but, of course, Tommy never said that anybody did.He only stated the obvious, reminded everybody of their rights (rights that nobody seemed confused about), and decided that commenting is whining.

          MMFA has the right to comment on the media, and wacky moves like hiring Karl Rove. Everybody is free to read or not read MMFA.Any whining about what MMFA posts is, well, whining.

          Wow, that's as easy as it is utterly pointless.Keep up the good work, Tommy.

          Report Abuse
          • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 1:33 pm ET)
               
            Thanks Colonel, somebody has to do it.
            Report Abuse
          • Author by Col. Harlan Sanders (May 20, 2008 1:33 pm ET)
               
            Damn, Tommy, you got your "I never said that" reflex in before I could !
            Report Abuse
            • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 1:36 pm ET)
                 
              Well, not only do I get paid by the post, but extra if it's super fast.
              Report Abuse
          • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 1:38 pm ET)
               

            Oh and Colonel, I have spoken to the powers that be here at MMFA on your implied suggestion, if we have our way the header for this section will now look like this; 

            Comments (those that agree),  Whining (those that don't)

            Report Abuse
            • Author by Col. Harlan Sanders (May 20, 2008 6:23 pm ET)
                 
              Tommy, by "my implied suggestion", I'm assuming you mean "Tommy's wild make-believe suggestion". Just a minor typo, but I thought you'd want that cleared up.
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      • Author by JLyons (May 20, 2008 2:14 pm ET)
           
        Tommy, I believe anyone does have the right to hire Karl Rove, I think he is a good pundit. However , lets just make sure these outlets cover the story. 
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        • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 2:17 pm ET)
             

          J,

          While I agree that anyone who wants to hire him certainly can, I can't think of a more useless pundit, he was the chief strategist for one of the most unpopular presidents in history.  Why anyone would care what he says is beyond me, which is why I don't watch/listen or read him.  

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          • Author by JLyons (May 20, 2008 2:25 pm ET)
               
            But he also helped elect this unpopular President and was the brains behind stealing an election. Studying him is very useful for political science students and fans of politics. I enjoy listening to him.
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            • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 2:28 pm ET)
                 
              I can see your point, if one wants to understand how to have a hand in royally screwing up a presidency in order to avoid such pitfalls, listening to his advice would be a great first start.
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              • Author by JLyons (May 20, 2008 2:41 pm ET)
                   
                Just like the horrible John Dean and other Nixonites. G Gordon Liddy and scum.
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                • Author by foghornleghorn (May 20, 2008 3:42 pm ET)
                     

                  horrible John Dean...

                  Horrible how?  Because he wouldn't lie to the grand jury to help save Nixon's presidency and then came clean by telling the truth?  Please read a book once in a while.

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                  • Author by JLyons (May 20, 2008 3:56 pm ET)
                       
                    Anyone who worked for Richard Nixon and his criminal adminstration is horrible. There is a new book out that claims Dean was the mastermind behind Watergate, go read that and open your eyes to other views regarding that sad time in American history.
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                    • Author by foghornleghorn (May 20, 2008 4:16 pm ET)
                         

                      open your eyes to other views...

                      What "other views"?  The ones that are trying to re-write history?  You don't know what you're talking about.

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                      • Author by JLyons (May 20, 2008 4:19 pm ET)
                           
                        You want to defend criminals from that Administration be my guest. 
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                        • Author by mary59 (May 20, 2008 5:12 pm ET)
                             
                          JLyons, you do realize that G. Gordon Liddy and Chuck Colson put out the "Dean masterminded Watergate" story some years ago in an attempt to discredit him...

                          Dean has become a strong voice for exposing the corruption of the Bush administration, as his conscience caused him to speak out in the Nixon era.
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      • Author by worrierking (May 20, 2008 2:18 pm ET)
           
        And by the same token, to whine about MMFA whining about his employment or the praise some have heaped upon him is well, whining too.
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        • Author by tommy (May 20, 2008 2:20 pm ET)
             
          Could be.  I don't believe I have ever said I don't whine, I just don't get as upset about the label as some here do.
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        • Author by Olawaar (May 20, 2008 3:18 pm ET)
             

          But MMFA has this mission to point out missinformation, and that makes MMFA-whining look childish.

          They have this long roster of people with phd:s and all this knowledge of politics, you´d think they´d stick to their agenda and not get stuck on opposing opinions and employment of..well morons. Its a credibility issue and I think that MMFA is digging a hole for themselves by not being consistent.

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          • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (May 21, 2008 11:44 am ET)
               
            I note that you neglected to actually point out any inconsistencies.
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      • Author by steeve (May 20, 2008 6:45 pm ET)
           

        Yet again with the whining charge.  Boehlert obviously can't be attacked on any substantive point.

        Anyone who whines about whining is a whiner.

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      • Author by carlileb5935 (May 20, 2008 7:41 pm ET)
           

        To whine about his employment or the praise some have heaped upon him is well, whining.
         

        No one's whining about it-- they're just rebutting it. And pointing out the contradiction.

        Rebut that, why don't you? 

        And say Tommy, what would have happened if this were a Democraticc operative in the crosshairs, instead of Rove?

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      • Author by political_left-religious_right (May 21, 2008 8:55 am ET)
           

        Your ability to derail a thread is truly monumental, Tommy. 

        Even Jeter, who is normally more level-headed, but sometimes willfully blinds himself in his efforts (God knows why) to defend you, gets it entirely wrong when he states: "Boehlert has written an entire column complaining about the hiring of Rove."  This is not the issue at all.  The issue is the media's adulation of Rove, not their hiring of Rove.

        It sure would be nice if we could go back and erase everything that followed as a consequence of your irrelevancies, since there was nothing of value you were able to add... to the real topic, anyway.

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      • Author by captfoster2 (May 22, 2008 10:38 pm ET)
           

        Um..... Tommy,

        You are missing the point....... that if Karl Rove is to be found in contempt of Congress..... wouldn't Fox or Newsweek have no choice but to, if not fire him, at least suspend him until a full investigation is complete?

        As a political analyst, Karl Rove give his thoughts on how government should do what ever it does, while at the same exact time being what would be in essence, a criminal....

        Then again.... Fox has Ollie North on as a political hitman all the time..... so we already know where Fox stands, as it pertains to how they feel about our government and its place in our lives!

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    • Author by MickD (May 20, 2008 1:48 pm ET)
         
      What I can never understand is why a rational communication entity would want to employ a man with Rove's track record (I know we're talking about Fox News here, but also the others....). The potential to have it blow up would seem not worth the effort.

      It seems that the MSM hates to talk about the Repubs going into the tank, or in essence will have five guys trying to spin the reality. It also seems they don't give a damn what their audience (the American people) think, only what they want to tell them to think (to paraphrase Citizen Kane).
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      • Author by BottleBlonde (May 20, 2008 2:00 pm ET)
           

        This weekend I noticed on Fox News when they mentioned that Karl Rove was going to appear that they called him a strategist, not a Republican strategist. If anyone should be identified with their party affiliation, it should be Karl Rove, yet they didn't do that.

        They are still not buying into the reality that is the diminishing power of the Republican Party in the USA.

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    • Author by pete592 (May 20, 2008 2:01 pm ET)
         

      This has to be the most disappointed I've ever been with a Boehlert piece.

      His whole Stephanopoulos "what if" hypothesis, as detailed and well-written as it is,  is nothing more than a tired, knee-jerk debate tactic that reeks of exhaust from the hypocrisy WAHHHmbulance tailpipe.

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      • Author by steeve (May 20, 2008 7:05 pm ET)
           

        I know it's hard for people to hear, but Democrats actually are victims of the media.  You can tell, because whenever that victimhood is asserted, it is never challenged.  There is only the siren call of whining.

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    • Author by IRONY 101 (May 20, 2008 2:03 pm ET)
         
      F#ck Karl Rove...and the media that hire the scumbag.
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      • Author by Limit Corp. Ownership (May 20, 2008 4:50 pm ET)
           

        I agree, F*CK him...

        Two-bit Repuke-lican.  You know the bastard had a big hand in that attorney scandal. ...Fascist.

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    • Author by dbeden4153 (May 20, 2008 2:17 pm ET)
         

      You know, I can't understand how Karl Rove is perceived to be a good pundit.  Remember the 2006 elections? Remember his predictions?  How'd that turn out for ya Turd Blossom?

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      • Author by Limit Corp. Ownership (May 20, 2008 5:02 pm ET)
           

        How about a new program for Fixed News:

        Delay and Rove

        The guest host could be Pat Robertson or Ted Haggard. 

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    • Author by eweston8542983 (May 20, 2008 2:20 pm ET)
         

      Jez Tommy you got the With Crew, and Whinning labels.

      I really feel like I'm playing one step back as only a comenter.

      I also feel a need with a tee shirt with Karl behaind bars on it.

      If it does really happen, I don't see it really hurting his emploment prospects any. Though last heard Scotter was having a little trouble there, and one general was reassigned from a position in Pakistan, do to protests there, I haven't really seen much hurt done to neocons yet.

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    • Author by Chromium (May 20, 2008 3:08 pm ET)
         

      Just for fun:

       

      Read the 4th paragraph and think to yourself what the blue words "hire partisan" link to.

       

      Helpful suggestions:

      1.  A MMFA article comparing the number of Republican versus Democratic pundits and frequency of appearances on cable news programs.

      2. An in-depth Time magazine article about Republican pundits

      3. A Keith Olbermann special comment

      4. The announcement that Tony Snow was hired by CNN 

       

      Chromium (formerly Missouri Show Me)

       

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    • Author by mary59 (May 20, 2008 3:13 pm ET)
         
      I'm starting to wonder how may of the above posters have read this article? And know what happened with Don Siegleman?! Does anyone ever get outraged anymore?!!!
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      • Author by Governor (May 20, 2008 3:25 pm ET)
           
        I agree with you, and I am indeed outraged, though, to some, this is whining, and perhaps a mild abuse of commas.
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        • Author by mary59 (May 20, 2008 3:29 pm ET)
             
          I'd rather abuse a comma than be in a coma. ;-)
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          • Author by Chromium (May 20, 2008 3:32 pm ET)
               
            I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal... oh, you know.
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    • Author by peebs755 (May 20, 2008 3:45 pm ET)
         
      It baffles me that anyone would take anything karl rove says seriously. I don't understand how anyone, given his past proven lies, would assign insight to what he says. it makes me question whats really going on.
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      • Author by IRONY 101 (May 20, 2008 3:55 pm ET)
           

        Karl Rove is in demand by the  media because he is a C-E-L-E-B-R-I-T-Y... created by the media.

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      • Author by dbeden4153 (May 20, 2008 4:03 pm ET)
           
        Which is why I can't understand why Clinton would quote him as proof that she is ahead...
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      • Author by anotheramerican (May 20, 2008 4:03 pm ET)
           

        Pete,

        For the past eight years I've been reading here almost daily accusations regarding the 'evil' Karl Rove.  Is there anyplace on the web where all these allegations are listed and whatever support or proof that backs up all these claims? 

        I'm not interested in unsupported accusations. Just the facts please.  

        Report Abuse
        • Author by anotheramerican (May 20, 2008 4:05 pm ET)
             
          Gotta get my glasses.. Sorry my request is to Peebs.
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          • Author by dbeden4153 (May 20, 2008 4:14 pm ET)
               

            Here's a taste:
            In 1986, Rove, in Texas and working on a campaign for Republican gubernatorial candidate Bill Clements, declared that Democrats had bugged his office. The accusation, which spurred an FBI investigation, never panned out, leading critics to charge that Rove had bugged his own office. In late 1999, there was wise speculation that Rove was behind the whisper campaign alleging that Sen. John McCain (R-AZ), then a leading contender for the Republican nomination for president, was in danger of cracking from stress of having been a prisoner of war in Vietnam (Nation, March 5, 2001). Rove is also believed by many to be behind another, perhaps more vicious whisper campaign against McCain during the race for the presidential nomination (Democracy Now, September 3, 2004). "Anonymous opponents used 'push polling' to suggest that McCain's [adopted] Bangladeshi-born daughter was his own, illegitimate black child. In push polling, a voter gets a call, ostensibly from a polling company, asking which candidate the voter supports. In this case, if the 'pollster' determined that the person was a McCain supporter, he made statements designed to create doubt about the senator. Thus, the 'pollsters' asked McCain supporters if they would be more or less likely to vote for McCain if they knew he had fathered an illegitimate child who was black" (Boston Globe, March 21, 2004). McCain lost the South Carolina primary.

            http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1343.html 

            And how about President Bush being the crowning achievement of Rove's 30 year plan to create a permanent Republican Majority, per his words?

            And if you're still on Bush's side, then you'll be glad to know that we will soon be bombing Iran.  Feel safer yet? 

            Report Abuse
            • Author by anotheramerican (May 20, 2008 4:29 pm ET)
                 

              DB,

              Thanks for the reply. However I asked for any accusations that contained proof. It looks to me like you only provided hearsay. If you have any other proof, I'd appreciate it.

              Maybe I missed it, what are you talking about regarding Iran?  

              Report Abuse
              • Author by dbeden4153 (May 20, 2008 4:42 pm ET)
                   

                Ok, for instance, in the "bugging" case, Rove clearly bugged his own room and then accused the Democrats, on the eve of an election, in order to influence the vote.  What is the proof?  The "bugs" that he found had batteries that only lasted a few hours.  In other words, to have bugged his office, they would have to break in to his office every few hours and replace the batteries.  

                Here's a decent article about the Machiavellian machinations of Rove:

                http://harpers.org/archive/2007/07/hbc-90000569

                It's not like we dislike him because he's a Republican.  We dislike him because he has demonized and demoralized anyone who is not a neo-con.  

                As for the Iran thing?  Let's just say I'll bet you $20 that we'll have bombed selected targets in Iran before the election is over. 

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                • Author by dbeden4153 (May 20, 2008 5:03 pm ET)
                     

                  Also, Rove views government solely as an institution for divisive political purposes.

                  Remember in 2000 when Bush said "I'm a uniter, not a divider"?  I'll bet you anything that was a line Rove fed him.  And I'll bet you anything that Rove had no intention whatsoever of following through with that.  Well, I mean, he has helped to unite the country against the President, but he wasn't alone in that.

                  Report Abuse
                • Author by anotheramerican (May 21, 2008 10:33 am ET)
                     

                  DB,

                  Again you provided no proof. 

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by BottleBlonde (May 23, 2008 2:00 am ET)
                       

                    This is not a court of law.

                    There is clear evidence that he bugged his own office. There is clear evidence that he used dirty tricks to beat a great Governor, Ann Richards, to replace him with a crappy Governor, George Bush. There is clear evidence that he smeared and helped others smear political opponents in Bush's two campaigns and in Bush's primary races. There is clear evidence of Rove's hand in the New Hampshire phone bank jamming case. There's clear evidence of Rove's involvement in many of the unreasonable firings of US Attorneys as well as in the unreasonable prosecution of Siegelman. There's clear evidence that he's behind the Republicans looking to screw with the Washington Lobbyist groups by forcing them to hire Republicans if they wanted any sway with Bush. There are clear links between Rove and Abramoff and between Rove and the funders who paid to hype the SwiftBoat vets distortions.

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    • Author by snoopy (May 20, 2008 4:36 pm ET)
         
      Speaking of whining, catch this article about Rove and his dog whining about MSNBC blurring the lines between news and commentary. Hilarious!
      Report Abuse
      • Author by Col. Harlan Sanders (May 20, 2008 5:49 pm ET)
           

        Snoopy, beyond hilarious. I had just stepped out of the shower last night and flipped on the TV to catch this, with the Fox NEWS logo on the screen.Rove and Ingraham talking about NBC blurring the lines. Incredible.

        I didn't catch the beginning, but wasn't it about the Engel/Bush interview and a supposed misleading edit of Bush's words? Can anybody give a credible explanation of how Bush's handlers are portraying the misinformation? I would appreciate it, because I've listened to a few accounts, and none seemed to stick very close to reality.

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    • Author by Limit Corp. Ownership (May 20, 2008 4:46 pm ET)
         

      Let's face it...

      Karl Rove is the best thing that's happened to Democrats in years. ... The man is a complete moron, and now the corporate media is kissing his bum all over the place.

      I'm thinking of Rove for Vice-President.  Go Karl!!!

       

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    • Author by dandec5947 (May 20, 2008 5:08 pm ET)
         

      I don't have a problem with Rove appearing on Fox News, or any other GOPer or Dem making a buck. My problem is with the networks paying these folks to spin for their side when they would probably do it for free. 

      Maybe FNC, CNN and MSNBC can have a graphic - kind of like the terror threat warning code - to indicate when these folks are giving honest analysis or just home team spin. I honestly can't tell the difference anymore. 

      Seeing Rove slam Obama at the NRA convention and carry the Bush White House water on the the NBC editing thing really makes me think he's just going round and round in the revolving door, never really going in or out. 

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    • Author by MoonbatYouBet (May 20, 2008 5:13 pm ET)
         

      To the point at hand now-

      Rove is a political mastermind as far as getting people elected goes.  He is skilled at the manipulation of language, media and public opinion, proficient in quasi-legal dirty tricks, masterful at mudsling and extremely adept at all levels of controlling public debate to favor his candidates.  What he has absolutely no ability in is actually conducting the business of government.  This is why the Republican Party is in so much trouble now because they have relied on publicity with no real accomplishments to back themselves up.  The public can only be fooled so long it seems.

      What Rove is good at is precisely why he should not be considered a reasonable political analyst or pundit.  The man has depended on the use of lies, innuendo, half truths and distortions for his entire career.  Why should anyone believe he would stop now?

      And that is why it is not "whining" to point these things out on a website that covers the media.  The question here is "If the producers of these news programs consider Rove a perfectly reasonable choice of commentator, what sort of judgement do they have in producing their shows?".

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      • Author by Limit Corp. Ownership (May 20, 2008 6:47 pm ET)
           

        Very well said Moonbat...

        If a thing like Herr Rove--a proven liar, scumbag and conservative--is now trying to be passed off by the corporations as an "analyst"--if this is the best they can do:

        Then why should we trust the corporate media on anything they say?

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    • Author by truthseeker77 (May 20, 2008 10:05 pm ET)
         
      When Newsweek hired Karl Rove, it also hired Markos Moulitsas. What does Boehlert have to say about Moulitsas' open partisanship?
      Report Abuse
      • Author by Col. Harlan Sanders (May 20, 2008 11:12 pm ET)
           

        That depends-- does Moulitsas open partisanship include promoting a conservative agenda through misinformation?

        If not, then probably nothing.

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      • Author by Brabantio (May 21, 2008 8:01 am ET)
           
        You and Tommy keep pretending that the issue is that a conservative was hired.  It's not about that, it's about Rove's history and credibility.  If there's an argument that Markos shouldn't be hired because of his track record, I'm sure some other site is making it very well while not mentioning Rove at all.  Welcome to the internet.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by Lorelei (May 21, 2008 10:57 am ET)
         

      After reading this thread I am beginning to think that some of you have reading comprehension problems.

       

      8:p 

      Report Abuse
    • Author by night-n-day (May 21, 2008 3:37 pm ET)
         
      Geez! Just because Karl Rove sold the marketing of genocide in Iraq as "good for America", and sold the single most morally bankrupt "president" in US history as a "christian", you act like his voice should be silenced! To paraphrase the brilliant comments rightwingers use in Rove's defense, if the media wants to hire a mass-murderer to offer political commentary, why can't liberals simply change the station?
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    • Author by vonbargen9388 (May 22, 2008 8:18 pm ET)
         

      With regard to Rove now being an expert, after creating the Bushenstein monster;   there is some precedent for this idiotic choice.  After Marcia Clark blew the "crime of the century" (OJ Simpson, for the youngsters) she became an "expert," on news networks, also. Expert on what? How to lose a big case?   Before that, we had Susan Estrich, the mastermind behind Dukakis's spectacular free fall from a double digit lead  She turned up as an expert political analyst.  Expert on how to lose an election that was in the bag?  In sports, Steve Lavin allowed UCLA's basketball program to implode and now he, too, is an expert. 

      Maybe this is a variation on the old cliche about  how "those who can, do and those who can't - teach."  Or become "expert analysts."

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