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Eric Boehlert
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Why did the press ignore Ted Kennedy in 2002?

May 28, 2008 12:15 pm ET

The sad news last week that Sen. Edward Kennedy (D-MA) has been diagnosed with a malignant brain tumor triggered an extraordinary amount of news coverage, making the front pages of newspapers across the country and producing more than 2,000 television mentions, according to TVeyes.com.

Aside from sitting presidents, there aren't many politicians who can generate that kind of play with a health-related bulletin. The avalanche of interest in Kennedy's cancer battle stems not only from his famous family and his last-of-a-generation, living-legend status, but also because Kennedy symbolizes -- and serves as a de facto spokesman for -- an entire political leaning in America: liberals.

That's why what Kennedy does and says is important, and it's usually treated that way by the media.

Indeed, this is the second time this year the illustrious lawmaker has made big headlines. The first came in January when Kennedy endorsed Sen. Barack Obama for president. That was also front-page news across the country and completely dominated television's political coverage for days. In fact, news of Kennedy's endorsement, made on the morning of January 28, nearly eclipsed President Bush's State of the Union address, which was delivered later that evening.

This year, the press has treated Kennedy as a singularly powerful figure in the Democratic Party and a commanding spokesman for the American left.

Unfortunately, that hasn't always been the case. Just a few years ago, when Republicans were riding high on Iraq war fever and Democrats were seen as on the retreat politically, the press cavalierly snubbed Kennedy.

Specifically, back in September 2002, with the Bush administration and much of the Beltway media rushing to embrace war with Iraq, Kennedy delivered a passionate, provocative, and newsworthy speech raising all sorts of doubts about a possible invasion. Unlike today, the political press wasn't very interested in Kennedy or what he had to say about the most pressing issue facing the nation. Back in that media environment, being the voice of American liberals didn't mean much.

I've been thinking about Kennedy's speech a lot lately. Not just because the senator has been in the news, but also because of the Pentagon's still-unfolding propaganda scandal involving retired U.S. generals who, at times, were used as puppets on network and cable television during the war, where they repeated administration talking points while presenting themselves as independent analysts. That outlets eagerly embraced the Pentagon's pro-war generals while mostly dismissing Kennedy's warnings perfectly captured the media's mindset during the run-up to the war.

To really get a sense of the damage done by that propaganda initiative and to appreciate just how badly the press fell down as professional skeptics who are supposed to hold people in power accountable, it's instructive to revisit the media environment of late 2002 and early 2003.

And looking back, a key turning point during that public rush to war was Kennedy's fervent and thoughtful speech. It was a turning point because it highlighted, months before the invasion even took place, how the press was going to deal with high-profile, articulate critics of Bush's war policy. The press was going to downplay them, marginalize them, and ignore them. Even if those critics included high-wattage political stars like Ted Kennedy.

In retrospect, I can't help thinking that if the media treated Kennedy in 2002 the way they treat him today (and the way the press treated him before 2002), as somebody whose actions command respect and attention, that the doomed public debate about the war would have, or at least could have, been much different. It could have been more critical, more thoughtful, and more illuminating.

Instead, much of the political press in 2002 treated Kennedy as a bystander in the passing Bush parade, and specifically, they treated Kennedy's September 27 speech as little more than a political maneuver that deserved only passing mention -- literally.

That night on NBC's Nightly News, just 32 words from the Kennedy address were excerpted. On ABC's World News Tonight, it was 31 words. And on the CBS Evening News, 40 words. In all three instances, the brief mention of the Kennedy speech was part of a larger report on the looming possibility of war. Meaning, on none of the networks did Kennedy's speech qualify as a stand-alone news event.

The address was given on a Friday. Two days later on the Sunday talk shows, where Iraq was discussed in detail, Kennedy's name never came up on NBC's Meet the Press, on CBS' Face the Nation, or on ABC's This Week.

For the network pundits, Kennedy's anti-war speech did not exist. It was irrelevant to the around-the-clock media chatter about a looming war.

The Kennedy coverage in the major newspapers wasn't much better. At The Washington Post, Kennedy's newsworthy speech, a clarion call against Bush's pre-emptive war, garnered exactly one sentence -- 36 words total in coverage. Keep in mind, during 2002, the Post published more than 1,000 articles and columns about Iraq, nearly 1 million words. But the Post set aside just 36 words for Kennedy's farsighted war speech.

What was so remarkable was that Kennedy delivered his address at the time when there was already a media narrative unfolding about how Democrats, anxious about the political ramifications of not supporting a then-popular president, were not voicing stiff opposition to the planned invasion.

Two days before Kennedy gave his speech, the Post detailed in an A1 article how "[d]ozens of congressional Democrats are frustrated with their leadership for rushing to embrace President Bush's Iraqi war resolution and fostering an impression the party overwhelmingly backs a unilateral strike against Saddam Hussein."

When Kennedy stepped forward and answered the specific issue raised by the Post, what did the newspaper do? It devoted 36 words to Kennedy's address.

What was lacking from the limited coverage that did exist was even the slightest attempt to relay the key points of Kennedy's address, which represented the same central points that White House critics had been raising for months and continued to raise after Kennedy's speech.

Some key passages from the Kennedy speech:

  • "[T]he Administration has not made a convincing case that we face such an imminent threat to our national security that a unilateral, pre-emptive American strike and an immediate war are necessary."
  • "[T]he Administration has not explicitly acknowledged, let alone explained to the American people, the immense post-war commitment that will be required to create a stable Iraq."
  • "A largely unilateral American war that is widely perceived in the Muslim world as untimely or unjust could worsen not lessen the threat of terrorism."
  • "War with Iraq before a genuine attempt at inspection and disarmament, or without genuine international support -- could swell the ranks of Al Qaeda sympathizers and trigger an escalation in terrorist acts."
  • "[I]nformation from the intelligence community over the past six months does not point to Iraq as an imminent threat to the United States or a major proliferator of weapons of mass destruction."
  • "[T]here is no clear and convincing pattern of Iraqi relations with either Al Qaeda or the Taliban."

Talk about a greatest-hits performance. Kennedy nailed virtually every major problem and shortfall that emerged in the wake of the invasion. Yet in real time, the press, which was producing voluminous reports and commentary about the possible war, showed only superficial interest in Kennedy's prophetic comments.

For instance, Kennedy's hometown paper, The Boston Globe, ran a Page One story about the senator's war speech. But the article itself contained just three quotes from the address and did not include most of his most stinging assessments.

The New York Times did the same thing in a September 28, 2002, article, leading with a reference to Kennedy's address. But the Times included just two Kennedy quotes in the entire article, an article that mostly focused on upcoming war-related votes in Congress and the United Nations.

Also, both the Globe and the Times set aside nearly as much space for Republican hit man Rep. Tom DeLay (R-TX) to attack Kennedy's speech as the papers did to explain what Kennedy actually said about waging war.

Note: I mentioned earlier that it's instructive to go back and actually read the articles and transcripts from 2002 and 2003 to get a sense of just how dreadful the prewar coverage was. But that kind of research is not for the faint of heart, because what you'll find is often just gruesome.

That's my way of prefacing how MSNBC's Hardball dealt with Kennedy's speech on September 27, 2002. I kid you not, host Chris Matthews took the news of Kennedy's smart, provocative speech, which represented the most sweeping and prominent indictment of Bush's war plan delivered by an in-office Democrat, and the MSNBC host packaged it with war pronouncements made that same week by Hollywood stars:

MATTHEWS: Tonight on Hardball, Barbra Streisand, Senator Ted Kennedy, and Tom Cruise speak out as debate picks up in Washington and in Hollywood over whether this country should attack Iraq.

Don't you love how Babs got top billing over Kennedy? And yes, the program's guests spent nearly as much time discussing (in a serious manner) what celebrities thought about the war as they did debating Kennedy's thoughts about launching an unprecedented pre-emptive war against Iraq. (FYI: Cruise supported the war; Streisand, not so much.)

Not gruesome enough? Note this teaser that Matthews read at the top of the program that night, which perfectly captured the tone and tenor of the times: "Tonight, do the radical protesters shutting down Washington have a legitimate cause or do they simply hate America?"

Incredibly, Hardball was not alone in grouping Kennedy together with the Hollywood actor and singer in terms of the day's top political news. From CNN's Inside Politics on September 27, 2002:

Senator Ted Kennedy joins the ranks of Democrats raising red flags about war with Iraq, but is his take on Iraq that different from the president's? Then, Barbra Streisand is emerging from partial retirement Sunday, lending her voice to a star-studded event in Los Angeles, expected to bring in $4 million for House Democrats.

And yes, you read that correctly. The pros at CNN suggested that Kennedy's laundry list of reservations about a war with Iraq wasn't all that different from what Bush was saying publicly at the time. As CNN's Candy Crowley reported that day, "What was remarkable was the extent to which they [Kennedy and Bush] seemed to be saying the same thing."

Just amazing.

As we hope for the best regarding Kennedy's health condition and await the latest update, which will likely spark a flurry of press reports, let's not forget that it wasn't that long ago that the media did their best to ignore what Kennedy had to say. And when it ignored Kennedy, and when it ignored the voice of liberals, the press -- and the country -- paid a dear price.

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    • Author by eweston8542983 (May 28, 2008 12:32 pm ET)
         

      Well put Eric.

      I'm looking to see MSM try for a repeat, to sell an attack on Iran. I'm not going to take it quietly.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by captfoster2 (May 28, 2008 2:00 pm ET)
           

        I second that Eweston!

        Thank you Eric for a well written piece on the corporate owned media and its use of selective memory.....

        Did anyone send a virtual 'Get Well' card to Senator Kennedy?

        http://pol.moveon.org/getwellkennedy/

        I did so about two weeks ago.... not sure if it still works?

        Report Abuse
        • Author by JLyons (May 28, 2008 2:58 pm ET)
             
          Thank you, I sent the Senator a card but to his DC office.
          Report Abuse
    • Author by IRONY 101 (May 28, 2008 12:32 pm ET)
         
      Thanks for this piece, MMFA. I had forgotten about Ted Kenndy's speech and how accurate his opposition to the war was.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by Col. Harlan Sanders (May 28, 2008 12:40 pm ET)
           

        2002 was a long time ago, we can't blame the GOP/media for inconsistencies due to changing circumstances.They seem to be evolving.

        Why, just this morning, I heard Laura Ingraham questioning the credibility of the WH press secretary. Well, ok, the former one, McClellan, whose new book seems to confirm that a lot of that Bush Derangement Syndrome that was going around can be re-diagnosed as "Perfect Sanity".

        She seems to think McClellan is not trustworthy, and a crybaby.Good for her, a little healthy skepticism to balance out the absolute trust she afforded him for the last several years.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by IRONY 101 (May 28, 2008 12:44 pm ET)
             
          Very predictable, Colonel. There are even going to accuse him of lying to make money selling books. But how can they get around the fact that Scott McClellean was an insider...he was there. I always thought that as Bush's presidency approached its end that insiders who previously bailed out would start spilling the beans out of a guilty conscience or other reasons. In McClellan's case I think he's trying to come clean because he knows how bad he will be remembered for pushing White House lies...serious lies that brought us into war and covered up illegalities.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by anyfreedomleft (May 28, 2008 3:10 pm ET)
               
            Isn't it interesting ... McClellen is being painted by the media as a "disgruntled employee" ... yet prostitute-toe-sucker Dick Morris is a "legit" source on all things Hillary?
            Report Abuse
            • Author by historygeek001 (May 29, 2008 3:44 pm ET)
                 
              You're not supposed to notice that.  Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!  And remember, facts have a well-known Liberal bias!
              Report Abuse
    • Author by Sueelldd (May 28, 2008 12:39 pm ET)
         

      Senator Kennedy was courageous and correct in 2002 when everyone else was in love with that war. He is more courageous today in his fight against Brain Cancer. Thank you for making our nation a better place and helping poor families and all the other wonderful work you have done Senator Kennedy.

      Wonderful written piece by MMFA.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by DEMS_SOL (May 28, 2008 12:49 pm ET)
           

        ...and he was very couagous when he swam to safety and left a young woman drowning in his car in 1969. 

        I am sorry for his illness - but the guy is a bum!

        Report Abuse
        • Author by Kyle_Broflovski (May 28, 2008 12:51 pm ET)
             

          DS-

          You sound like Josef Stalin.  Of course that woman's death was tragic.  However, you treat the death of 4,000 American soldiers as if it were merely a statistic.

          Report Abuse
          • Author by Col. Harlan Sanders (May 28, 2008 12:54 pm ET)
               

            Dammit, I forgot to mention;

            This threads secret word is "Chappaquiddick". Say the secret word and win a litttle American flag.

            Report Abuse
            • Author by Kyle_Broflovski (May 28, 2008 12:55 pm ET)
                 
              You mean the kind that you are required to pin to your lapel, lest you be accused of un-patriotism?
              Report Abuse
            • Author by worrierking (May 28, 2008 1:00 pm ET)
                 
              For our prize, an we choose either cloth or tin?

              My lapel pin's getting kind of rusty.

              I was swimming while wearing mine and now I need a new one.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by Col. Harlan Sanders (May 28, 2008 3:42 pm ET)
                   

                King, you don't go swimming with the standard model. Use the 100% Neoprene with the pierced-nipple backing for patriotic aquatic activities.Or Patrioquatic.

                BTW, speaking of "Elites", WK, I heard one of the Fox blondes(Megan Kelly?) complaining about gas prices the other morning. She mentioned that she didn't feel that bad about the 70 bucks to fill up her compact, as she did it in New Jersey, where (according to her)...

                They still have attendants at the gas pumps !!

                Is this true, your Majesty?

                Report Abuse
                • Author by worrierking (May 28, 2008 3:53 pm ET)
                     
                  Yes it's true. It's illegal to pump your own gas in NJ and the price of gas is less than most of the surrounding states.

                  And not even our governor wears a seatbelt.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by Col. Harlan Sanders (May 28, 2008 4:00 pm ET)
                       
                    Sweeet ! So you just sit in the Royal SUV, barking out orders and pointing to bird droppings on the windshield with your scepter? (I was a pump jockey when I was a teen, so I vaguely remember the routine. I can't remember the last time I saw a "full service" station.)
                    Report Abuse
            • Author by bruce1ace (May 28, 2008 1:05 pm ET)
                 
              Somewhere in a parallel universe, MMFA is railing against "liberal misinformation" with the headline:  "Media outlets cover Ted Kennedy's cancer diagnosis without noting his involvement in Chappaquidick incident".
              Report Abuse
              • Author by tommy (May 28, 2008 1:11 pm ET)
                   
                Ah, interesting flip side, but that parallel universe does not exist here, sorry.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by mary59 (May 28, 2008 2:07 pm ET)
                     
                  derail attempt #2, as if that event hadn't already been thoroughly discussed.  It doesn't take anything away from the fact that Kennedy's speech was a powerful indictment that showed someone with a grasp of the situation, going completely against the overwhelming media chorus, and he was ignored by the press. 
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by jeter2 (May 28, 2008 2:23 pm ET)
                       

                    Please stop it Mary. Your lame attempt to police this site makes you look silly.

                    Bruce brought it up, not Tommy.

                    And it was an excellent observation. Had this thread been about a Republican, MMFA would have surely asked the type of question that Bruce brought up.

                    BTW, why didn't you cry thread derailment when the Colonel brought up McClellan?

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by Governor (May 28, 2008 2:26 pm ET)
                         

                      And it was an excellent observation. Had this thread been about a Republican, MMFA would have surely asked the type of question that Bruce brought up.

                       

                      Are you insane? 

                      Report Abuse
                    • Author by mary59 (May 28, 2008 2:40 pm ET)
                         

                      Jeter, Acrispage's comments on the next page are right on and express my thoughts on this topic. 

                      I would like to see the press take responsibility for their coverage of 2002.  It was cheerleading for war and Kennedy's speech should have received more covereage by the press as well as more reflection and investigation.  This is really the point of the thread here. 

                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by bruce1ace (May 28, 2008 2:49 pm ET)
                           
                        Over the past few years, I have read and seen many in the press admit to poor journalism in the runup to the war. 
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by roundhouse (May 29, 2008 3:41 am ET)
                             
                          BFD

                          The damage is done.

                          Thank you so much to the hyperpatriots.
                          Report Abuse
                      • Author by jeter2 (May 28, 2008 3:06 pm ET)
                           

                        Mary,

                        I do think the media has begun to admit they blew it. A case of too little, too late, but perhaps a lesson they will keep in mind should they be faced with something similar in the future.

                        Let's face it in 2002 this nation & it's press were still in a 9/11 frame of mind. Folks wanted to believe in the President & have faith that he was protecting us. The media should have been more diligent, but instead they were either caught up in what we now know was propaganda & hype & lies, or they were afraid to anger the public by challenging the President. Either way they blew it.

                        I'll applaud Ted Kennedy for his Iraq stance. He was correct when so many others were wrong [on both sides of the aisle]

                        P.S. Just read Chris's post. Excellent points.

                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by mary59 (May 28, 2008 3:15 pm ET)
                             
                          I agree. But it was also access to the White house and the almighty dollar, that led them to all the cheerleading.

                          By the way, I take your "silly" comment as a compliment. I think we should all be silly at least 6 times a day. ;-)
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by jeter2 (May 28, 2008 3:31 pm ET)
                               

                            You're a good sport Mary. You may even come to love me as much as your cyber twin Julia does ;-)

                            I agree a little silliness here often breaks up the squabbles that occasionally irrupt here. And Lord knows I have joined in the silliness more times than I care to admit...

                            I would like it to be duly noted [if you are doing thread police duty] that I am purposely ignoring Gov. He's like that pesky fly at a picnic. You keep swatting at him & then you just finally have to squash him ;-) 

                            But no more of that sort of thread derailment from me O:-)

                            Of course taking a thread off topic to make a pertinent or interesting point, well no promises about that... 

                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by juliajayne (May 28, 2008 4:27 pm ET)
                                 

                              Well, I would be honored to be Mary's cyber twin. But hands off my guy, Mary. ;-0) He's says he's handsome (and vain). He can be a hnadful because he is singularly stubborn and must always claim victory even when it's clear he's lost. Ha.

                              On subject, Ted Kennedy was very prescient. There was no excuse for the media (not even 9/11) to not do their duty which means holding TPTB (the powers that be) feet to the fire. What we have now is a bunch of sychophantic wussies who pledge allegience only to the almighty dollar. They are decidedly not interested in getting any real news. Kudos to Ted Kennedy for the speech and kudos to Eric for the article (reminder that some people actually use their brains). Also Eric, was nice to hear you on Thom Hartmann's show. 

                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by mary59 (May 28, 2008 5:17 pm ET)
                                   
                                Well missy, he's all yours! Except for your husband and his wife, of course ;-)

                                I heard the interview also. Hmm...do you think we're really long lost twins? Were you born in Omaha?
                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by juliajayne (May 28, 2008 5:40 pm ET)
                                     
                                  Olean, New York, my twin cyber sister. Must be seperated at birth or something. But I won't ask the year of birth ;-)
                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by jeter2 (May 28, 2008 5:48 pm ET)
                                       

                                    Olean New York???

                                    No way! Ha! My wife has an Aunt & Uncle that have lived there for like 35 plus years. Prospect Ave I think, or something like that. We've been there a few times, though not recently. They usually come down our way once or twice a year. They are those Cons that really scare the Left. The Religious-Righties :-O

                                    Report Abuse
                                    • Author by juliajayne (May 28, 2008 8:40 pm ET)
                                         

                                      Hey, my Mom's a religious righty or thinks she is (she actually sounds like a Democrat when she voices her concerns, but shhh, she still votes Republican). She is pretty scary.

                                      If you ever get to Olean again, go to the Beef and Barrel Restaurant. It's really a good place to eat. I don't get there much these days.

                                      You said your wife is Armenian? I know some Armenian families in the area. Small world, eh?

                                      Report Abuse
                                      • Author by jeter2 (May 29, 2008 5:22 pm ET)
                                           

                                        Julia,

                                        My wife is Armenian, I'm impressed that you remembered that...

                                        Her Olean Aunt & Uncle are a mixed marriage ;-)

                                        Her Aunt [her Dad's sister] is Armenian, her Uncle is German/Irish/Swedish.

                                        But yeah small world :-)

                                        And I will ask them about that restaurant

                                        Report Abuse
                                        • Author by juliajayne (May 30, 2008 9:38 am ET)
                                             

                                          That restaurant's best dish is the beef on wecks sandwich with german potato salad. And I remember your wife is Armenian because my sister's (okay one of my many sisters) best friend in HS was Armenian. But my sister's friend's family made a big deal about her marrying a non Armenian. They threatened to disown her but I'm not sure they ever really did (I have lost contact). Anything happen like that to your wife for marrying non Armenian?

                                          Report Abuse
                                  • Author by mary59 (May 28, 2008 5:51 pm ET)
                                       
                                    1950. I think that's the year of the Tiger.
                                    Report Abuse
                                    • Author by Col. Harlan Sanders (May 29, 2008 1:08 am ET)
                                         
                                      Hey, Mary, I'm a Water Tiger.Is a cat & water worse than a cat in a box?
                                      Report Abuse
                                • Author by jeter2 (May 28, 2008 5:50 pm ET)
                                     

                                  Well missy, he's all yours!

                                  Well Mary you don't know what you're missing ;-)

                                  But that's ok. Julia is my cyber sweatheart :-)

                                  Report Abuse
                        • Author by dbeden4153 (May 28, 2008 3:50 pm ET)
                             

                          "The media should have been more diligent, but instead they were either caught up in what we now know was propaganda & hype & lies, or they were afraid to anger the public by challenging the President. Either way they blew it."

                          I think they were afraid of being labelled unpatriotic.  Remember that?  You're either with us or against us?  I mean, for a time I was literally afraid to speak out...It's scary when your government labels you unpatriotic and even dangerous because you have a different opinion (which turned out to be the right opinion.)  

                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by jeter2 (May 28, 2008 4:00 pm ET)
                               

                            I think they were afraid of being labelled unpatriotic. 

                            Totally agree D. That's basically what I meant by the media not wanting to anger the public, but you nailed it for exactly what it was: being labelled unpatriotic. And if truth be told I'd bet too many in Congress may have gone along with Bush for similar reasons.

                            Bush & Co. were able to go to war with very little challenge because most of our media & lawmakers were too afraid to speak up.

                             

                            Report Abuse
                        • Author by roundhouse (May 29, 2008 3:52 am ET)
                             
                          "I do think the media has begun to admit they blew it. A case of too little, too late, but perhaps a lesson they will keep in mind should they be faced with something similar in the future."

                          And? Media is a business. Remember? Isn't that the con argument? It's all in the name of profit. It's about feeding the consumer the bloodlust they so desire. Media will learn nothing until the dysfunctional neocon agenda has lost its grip on our culture.

                          But this, Jeter: " O:-)" has a definite artistic flare. I likey. Did you make it up?
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by jeter2 (May 29, 2008 5:24 pm ET)
                               

                            Roundhouse,

                            Yeah that's me with a halo O:-)

                            I'd love to take credit for it, but I know I've seen it someplace before. Probably here ;-)

                            Report Abuse
                      • Author by hogprint (May 28, 2008 6:18 pm ET)
                           
                        Where were you and Teddy when he was cheerleading for clintons illegal bombing of Kosovo?  My how the worm turns...
                        Report Abuse
                    • Author by Col. Harlan Sanders (May 28, 2008 3:18 pm ET)
                         

                      Jeter, I  mentioned McClellan as a similar example of the selective focus of and criticism by the media.

                      But I did like your accusation towards Mary of policing the site, in the same post as you demand she "stop it". Very nice !  ;0)

                       

                       

                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by tommy (May 28, 2008 3:30 pm ET)
                           

                        So, it was a simple off topic swipe at an opposing politician disguised as an  analagous derailment, instead of an off topic swipe at a coveted liberal politician encased in a despicable derailment?

                        Gosh, that makes sense. 

                        Report Abuse
                      • Author by jeter2 (May 28, 2008 3:34 pm ET)
                           

                        Yeah yeah Col. Beach whatever.

                        You do it, it's all hunky dory. I do it, it's a mortal sin. I get it.

                        I do it, you can bring it up. You do it, I can't point it out.

                        Are those the rules?

                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by tommy (May 28, 2008 3:37 pm ET)
                             

                          Jeter,

                          Rule clarification #???

                          Thread derailment is welcomed if it follows the conventional wisdom here and does not offend liberals.  Thread derailment is the product of an idiot who has no life, or gets paid to post here, when it does not rubberstamp the thread topic or insult the conservative media goons. 

                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by Governor (May 28, 2008 3:39 pm ET)
                               
                            There.  All out of wood. 
                            Report Abuse
                          • Author by jeter2 (May 28, 2008 3:47 pm ET)
                               

                            Thanks for that explanation of Rule #??? Tommy. I will commit to memory so as not to offend the delicate sensibilities of any Dem/Lib in the future.

                            Ok, maybe not ;-)

                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by Col. Harlan Sanders (May 28, 2008 3:57 pm ET)
                                 
                              Oh, the magical places you guys go! It's a world that seems almost real.
                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by jeter2 (May 28, 2008 4:02 pm ET)
                                   

                                Aw Beach you're just jealous because we don't invite you ;-)

                                 

                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by Col. Harlan Sanders (May 28, 2008 5:03 pm ET)
                                     

                                  Aw Beach you're just jealous because we don't invite you ;-)

                                  Whatever, Jeter.

                                  BTW, I retract my statement regarding your demand for Mary to "stop it". You said "please", so it was a polite request.A little etiquette goes a long way.

                                  Report Abuse
                              • Author by juliajayne (May 28, 2008 4:38 pm ET)
                                   

                                Thread derailment is the product of an idiot who has no life, or gets paid to post here, when it does not rubberstamp the thread topic or insult the conservative media goons. Tommy.

                                Yes, my boy. I couldn't have said it better myself :-0) Ah, cons are so sensitive.

                                Hey Col., be careful now, you don't want to get into a big back and forth harrangue with Jetey and Tom Tom. They play for keeps. Either that or they are unemployed (J2 will be if he keeps using his employers time ;-)), and we know Tommy gets paid especially if he has at least 30 or more repetetive, word parsing, dead boring posts that go nowhere. Ah, so many posts, so much time on his hands.

                                But I took your point about Scotty McClellan. All of a sudden he's a persona non grata since he might be telling a tad of truth. Can't upset the corporate media hierarchy with any stubborn truth. Can't let Ted Kennedy have equal time with war cheerleaders.

                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by tommy (May 28, 2008 4:48 pm ET)
                                     

                                  Julia,

                                  You're cute, in a very harmless way.  And I sincerely mean that in the most patronizing, insincere tone that pepper most of your inane posts.  I really do.

                                  Perhaps if you spent a little less time on why we are here, and a little more quality time on why you obviously feel so intimidated by anonymous posters with opposing opinions, which has been truly revealed of late, then you wouldn't garner such dismissive indifference among the more thoughtful members here.

                                  But it's merely a suggestion, actually every time you mention my name I am flattered, and you even think of me when I am not here.......smoochies to ya for that Dearie. 

                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by juliajayne (May 28, 2008 5:00 pm ET)
                                       

                                    Ah honey, don't take these things so personally. There, there.

                                     

                                    Report Abuse
                                    • Author by tommy (May 28, 2008 5:03 pm ET)
                                         
                                      I'm sorry, did I come across that way? Darnit, I really tried not too.
                                      Report Abuse
                                      • Author by Governor (May 28, 2008 5:10 pm ET)
                                           
                                        Just because you “really do” mean what you write doesn’t change that fact that you’ve been harmless since Bob Barker first advocated pet neutering.
                                        Report Abuse
                                        • Author by tommy (May 28, 2008 5:16 pm ET)
                                             
                                          I am only responding to you Governor to get my word/post count up in order to fatten my take home pay here today.......but I am a little irritated that my responses to you only garner half my regular charge, your fault!
                                          Report Abuse
                                          • Author by Governor (May 28, 2008 5:20 pm ET)
                                               
                                            It's not my fault you get paid in catnip.
                                            Report Abuse
                                            • Author by juliajayne (May 28, 2008 5:38 pm ET)
                                                 
                                              Oh that's why he thouight the cat thing yesterday with lil' Tucky was A-okay. Ha.
                                              Report Abuse
                                  • Author by roundhouse (May 29, 2008 4:26 am ET)
                                       
                                    "then you wouldn't garner such dismissive indifference among the more thoughtful members here."

                                    Like Chrispy? You?

                                    Please, don't make me laugh ya stereotypical patronizing, animal food trough water. Your father was a goat and your mother smelt of elderberries.
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                                    • Author by achrispage6992 (May 29, 2008 7:18 am ET)
                                         
                                      Let it go Roundhouse. Your pretention is amusing despite it's stupidity. If you wan't to gossip about me fine, I really expect no less since you seem incapable of engaging in adult conversation. Don't you have a "party" meetig to attend. I can't wait for your next manifesto, I'm sure it will depend on your hand in someones wallet, as usual.
                                      Report Abuse
                                      • Author by juliajayne (May 29, 2008 1:19 pm ET)
                                           
                                        Crispy, you really do need to develop a sense of humor. Such a grumpy coot. But I appreciated your post on Ted K yesterday.
                                        Report Abuse
                                        • Author by juliajayne (May 29, 2008 1:21 pm ET)
                                             
                                          Oh and Roundhouse, T was most assuredly talking about those "thoughtful" posters like Sueld and her band of clones. :-0) 
                                          Report Abuse
                                        • Author by achrispage6992 (May 29, 2008 1:50 pm ET)
                                             

                                          JuliaJayne,

                                          Normally I would agree with your recommendation if in fact there was not a reason for my smart ass response to Roundhouse. You see, last week Roundhouse saw fit to degradate himself by flinging some ridiculous personal insults my way. The whole incident stemmed from my disagreement with him on what constitutes "national service". Now he obviously sees fit to insert some lame dig at me anytime he gets a chance because I obviously got under his skin. Sorry, but his comments last week were over the line. Once there were new topics, I never gave it a second thought.  He obviously can't let it go. That's a little wierd considering this is just an internet web site discussion board. Although I abhore physical violence if a person talked to me face to face the way he did last week we would have fought. I just can't respect him as of right now.

                                          Anyway, I appreciate your comments. I don't know if you seen my response to you earlier this week but I have given you kudo's on occasion and I have apologized to you for being wrong and boneheaded before. We obviously have distinct disagreements about certain issues and I'm sure we will continue to do so. That being said that is no reason why we can't be civil. I'll try my best to do so in the future.

                                          Report Abuse
                                          • Author by juliajayne (May 29, 2008 2:34 pm ET)
                                               
                                            I didn't see the back and forth between you and Round. He is a righteous guy and you are too sometimes. You are just a little too intense for me at times. We differ less in perspective than in your obvious dislike for my posting style and my obvious dislike for your lack of humor. I have tried to explain here that I am a rational personality type, given more to seeing general concepts and not favorable to pedantic back and forth harrangues that do nothing to illuminate general concepts. My problem is that I have little patience for people who can't grasp concepts and devole into petty back and forth word parsing. I am an idea and concept person and most people like to discuss more concrete things, so I try to contribute some humor and am a smart alex at times to help break up the monotny. The fact that MMFA needs to be very precise and concrete in their mission to highlight con misinfortion is vexing to me at times because it causes many repeats of subjects from different sources that seem to not do original reporting. I don't fault them, but the general concept has already been disseminated, parsed to death and by the time it comes up again, what is there to say? If it weren't for the humor (insults and all) on this board it would get mighty boring.
                                            Report Abuse
                                          • Author by roundhouse (May 29, 2008 9:57 pm ET)
                                               
                                            Since you get so upset and think I'm gossiping about you, chris, why don't you provide a link to thread in question?

                                            Don't bother, friend. Here's the link http://mediamatters.org/items/200805190007?f=s_search

                                            I don't know about you but I'm not ashamed of anything I wrote to you.
                                            Report Abuse
                                      • Author by roundhouse (May 29, 2008 1:40 pm ET)
                                           
                                        I'm very much the dult with those not so lazy as to pull out the socialist label (and its many sneering allusions) whenever effective government, mutual responibility and broad prosperity is being discussed.

                                        The short version; don't call me a socialist and I won't call you an a-hole.
                                        Report Abuse
                                        • Author by achrispage6992 (May 29, 2008 1:56 pm ET)
                                             
                                          Here's another version. You flung the personal insults first which is essentially an indication that you were unable to defend your argument any other way. You may choose to call your theories about the role of government anything you want. The fact is that they are socialist views. If that is what you believe in I don't see why you are not proud of that. It's not as if everything abut socialism is evil. You're really out there man. Calm down and come back to earth.
                                          Report Abuse
                                          • Author by roundhouse (May 29, 2008 8:10 pm ET)
                                               
                                            I like to tussle, chris.

                                            Maybe I went negative early in that discussion but it was in reponse to that passive agressive socialist slander you trotsky(ed) out. To me dismissing your opponent as a socialist is lazy and exposes the discomfiture of the rightwing meritocracy argument. Moreover, I find that being called a socialist is on par with the heinous conservative line that a vote for a Democrat is a vote for a terrorist. So please don't act suprised when I react with disdain to a lazy argument.

                                            My thinking on the common good is informed by FDR, LBJ, MLK and the other solid liberal values leaders (not Marx and Engels, they were adherents of bloody revolution. I'm not, nor were my heroes.) The New Deal ushered in the greatest expansion of the middle class the world has ever seen. So why not resurect it in the name of an economy that works for all? The tenets I expound upon are derived from the American value that all men are created equal, that the man on the top floor is fundamentally no better a human being than the man (or woman) on the shop floor.

                                            As I said, I like to tussle. I have no hard feelings about any of it. So when you assume you got to me, that I can't "let it go", as you did above in response to Miss Julia (love ya, thanks for the props), you give yourself too much credit.
                                            Report Abuse
                                          • Author by roundhouse (May 29, 2008 10:02 pm ET)
                                               
                                            "The fact is that they are socialist views."

                                            Calling it a fact, doesn't make it so. Forgive me if I ask you to substantiate your opinion.
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                              • Author by bruce1ace (May 28, 2008 4:38 pm ET)
                                   
                                You should see the posts in that parallel universe!  Some wiseguy named "Finger Lickin' Good"  thinks he's pretty funny.
                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by juliajayne (May 28, 2008 4:43 pm ET)
                                     
                                  Ah, but he IS funny.
                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by bruce1ace (May 28, 2008 5:07 pm ET)
                                       
                                    I agree he's much better than the guy over here with the similar name.
                                    Report Abuse
                                    • Author by Col. Harlan Sanders (May 28, 2008 5:23 pm ET)
                                         
                                      That's not saying much, Bruce. Who sounds like "fingerlickin'" anyway, Finarfin?
                                      Report Abuse
                          • Author by roundhouse (May 29, 2008 4:18 am ET)
                               
                            "Thread derailment is welcomed if it follows the conventional wisdom here and does not offend liberals."

                            Wha...? Sounds like whining to me. As if conservatism is not the current convention in our culture.

                            Flippin' victim wannabe.
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                  • Author by roundhouse (May 29, 2008 3:37 am ET)
                       
                    "It doesn't take anything away from the fact that Kennedy's speech was a powerful indictment that showed someone with a grasp of the situation, going completely against the overwhelming media chorus, and he was ignored by the press. " Mary59

                    Ding Ding Ding Mary nails it. Pg. 1.

                    Haven't read the entire thread yet. Mary is the first person who brings the whole story home. The rest of you, " I was for the war before I was against the war," folks can kiss off......now.
                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by leatherhelmet (May 29, 2008 1:42 pm ET)
                       

                    Maybe the media remembers that Kennedy predicted Danie Ortega would win election in Nicaragua because of GHB's harassment of the Sandinistas.

                    Kennedy was dead wrong, Ortega lost. 

                    Maybe the media remembers Kennedy whining on and on about the 45000 body bags sent to Iraq during the Gulf War I.  He predicted staggering troop losses. He was wrong.

                    If the media wants to quote him regarding the war in Iraq, it should not forget his failed predictions and communism supporter. 

                     

                    Report Abuse
              • Author by jeter2 (May 28, 2008 2:17 pm ET)
                   

                Somewhere in a parallel universe, MMFA is railing against "liberal misinformation" with the headline:  "Media outlets cover Ted Kennedy's cancer diagnosis without noting his involvement in Chappaquidick incident".

                Bravo Bruce! An outstanding observation!! I think there's a MMFA staff member job waiting for you in that parallel universe ;-)

                Not a word about Chappaquiddick was murmured by that alleged Conservative media when they pretty much were reporting what sounded like Kennedy's obit.

                There are relatively few things I've agreed with Teddy on politically, I did [and do] agree with him about Iraq.

                Report Abuse
                • Author by Governor (May 28, 2008 2:25 pm ET)
                     

                  Not a word about Chappaquiddick was murmured by that alleged Conservative media when they pretty much were reporting what sounded like Kennedy's obit.

                   

                  Simply no true.  It was uttered several times in the coverage I read and saw. 

                  Report Abuse
              • Author by bfbenn (May 30, 2008 10:16 am ET)
                   

                Parallel universe?  We don' need no stinkin parallel universe!

                I'd be afraid to look, but that sounds like a headline over at AIM - right here in our own universe!

                Report Abuse
          • Author by DEMS_SOL (May 28, 2008 1:01 pm ET)
               

            However, you treat the death of 4,000 American soldiers as if it were merely a statistic

            And wht pearl of wisdom led you to that idioc conclusion?

            Report Abuse
            • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (May 28, 2008 1:02 pm ET)
                 
              Your idiotic statements, of course.
              Report Abuse
            • Author by Kyle_Broflovski (May 28, 2008 1:17 pm ET)
                 
              I reached my conclusion when you belittled a man who tried to save thousands of American lives in 2002 as a 'coward' because someone told you that he left that poor girl to die some 40 years ago.  Her death is tragic, yes, but you are clearly missing the big picture.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by DEMS_SOL (May 28, 2008 1:29 pm ET)
                   

                because someone told you that he left that poor girl to die some 40 years ago

                I will be king and assume you were too young on unborn at the time to understand what really happened.

                Report Abuse
                • Author by DEMS_SOL (May 28, 2008 1:35 pm ET)
                     
                  Opps - Im no king that's for sure - I was trying to say I will be kind!
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by Kyle_Broflovski (May 28, 2008 1:46 pm ET)
                       

                    How kind of you!

                    I will also be kind, and assume that you're just ignorant, and that you don't really want American troops to die in Iraq.

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by DEMS_SOL (May 28, 2008 2:05 pm ET)
                         
                      I must admit I am indeed ignorant to the apparent fact that you can not be educated.  I apologize for trying.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by Kyle_Broflovski (May 28, 2008 3:43 pm ET)
                           
                        That's OK, I'm actually not interested in your sick and twisted view of the world!
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by DEMS_SOL (May 28, 2008 4:18 pm ET)
                             

                          Yes - in my twisted world a man with his pregnant wife at home, leaves a party after several cocktails with a young girl as his passenger, drives off a bridge into a dyke, saves his own butt by swimming to shore while the girl drowns in the car; he makes  no attempt to rescue her and doesn't even report it until her body is stone cold dead - is not considered couragous. 

                          I forgot - in the land of the looney left that man is a hero.  Who's world is twisted here Kyle?

                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by Kyle_Broflovski (May 28, 2008 4:50 pm ET)
                               

                            Aaaah, I see.  So Bush went to war with Iraq because Ted Kennedy was involved in an auto accident 40 years ago, and since in your little world two wrongs make a right, President Bush purposely ignored Kennedy's speech in 2002 (even though TK was absolutely right) because he lacks credibility over something that happened a long time ago that partisan Republicans can't get past.

                            I thought you guys were pro-drunk driving anyways?  Isn't that why you elected Cheney (2 DUI's) and Bush (only one).  Of course, they never killed anyone, so it's perfectly excusable, right?  Have they confessed and repented yet?

                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by Col. Harlan Sanders (May 28, 2008 5:10 pm ET)
                                 

                              I thought you guys were pro-drunk driving anyways? 

                              As a bonus, he's asserting that Kennedy drove into a dyke. He should be a conservative God.

                              Report Abuse
                            • Author by DEMS_SOL (May 28, 2008 5:45 pm ET)
                                 
                              My comments that you chose to respond to was about Ted Kennedy being couragous and somehow you have brought in Bush and Cheney.  In your misguided world of relativism everything may seem equal but in the real world your thinking appears foolish.  Try to follow along with the topic of discussion and perhaps things will start to make sense to you.
                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by funnymanpants (May 28, 2008 6:54 pm ET)
                                   

                                Dems_soul wrote:

                                >>My comments that you chose to respond to was about Ted Kennedy being couragous and somehow you have brought in Bush and Cheney.  In your misguided world of relativism everything may seem equal but in the real world your thinking appears foolish. 

                                And who exactly is using relativism to dismiss the deaths of American soldiers? Dem Soul. You don't want to answer the serious argument that Ted Kennedy was spot on right about the Iraq war, so you bring in something that happened 40 years ago--and then accuse the other side of relativism. For the record, I don't think both events are equal. The worst that can be said about Kennedy (and this is bad, I admit) is that he accidently killed a women and covered it up. In contrast, Bush's illegal war killed probably 100,000 Iraqis. No, both events are not "equal," to use your term.  

                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by DEMS_SOL (May 29, 2008 9:57 am ET)
                                     

                                  FMP - my threads here began in response to someone using the adjective "Couragous" to describe Ted Kennedy. When it comes to the topic of the Iraq war there were several others besides Kennedy who shared the view that we may be making a mistake.  Ted Kennedy is secure in his position in the Senate no matter what he believes or says.  It is expected that he is going to speak his mind and his beliefs without consequences.  What he said and how he said did not require courage.

                                  His actions in 1969 were not those of a teenager or an inexperienced man.  They were the actions of a mature person.  His actions on that fateful day were cowardly.  He ran away from his responsibilities as a human being. Now 40 years later he as still yet to face up and reveal the truth of what happened ont hat day.  That will require courage.

                                  However it does not surprise me that many here defend Kennedy as "Couragous".  I have always been astonished at how liberalism measures it's success not by results, but by intentions.

                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by BottleBlonde (May 29, 2008 11:44 am ET)
                                       

                                    Of course what Ted Kennedy did back in 2002 took courage. Your false depiction of those events doesn't change reality. The fact that his constituents in Massachusetts will likely elect him irregardless of what he said about the lead-up to the war has no relevance here. It took courage even for someone whose Senate seat was safe to speak out like he did.

                                    Someone can be courageous in one part of their life and less brave in another part. People can and do change. Conservatives, however, do their best to hold on the status quo, because nuance and change are so disastrous to their mantra.

                                    Report Abuse
                                    • Author by DEMS_SOL (May 29, 2008 1:03 pm ET)
                                         

                                      It took courage even for someone whose Senate seat was safe to speak out like he did

                                      Teddy's older brother John wrote a book titled "Profiles in Courage".  It's about people who's actions define courage - not their words.  Read it and tell me where Teddy fit's in.

                                      Report Abuse
                                      • Author by Sueelldd (May 29, 2008 1:34 pm ET)
                                           
                                        Teds fights against this war, his record on poverty is where he fits in.
                                        Report Abuse
                                      • Author by achrispage6992 (May 29, 2008 2:08 pm ET)
                                           
                                        I'm sorry but what qualifies you to be the "decider" on what constitutes courage. Obviously, there are many people who believe that it takes courage to take an unpopular stance and speak out publicly about it. The politically expedient and uncourageous thing to do at that time would have been to think about ones political future and simply put on the flag pin and stand in the senate and tell everyone that our intelligence about WMD's justifies war while voting to give the President authorization to send 4,000 young men and women to the grave. Your overall point throughout this entire thread is that because of the incident in 1969 Kennedy is somehow incapable of displaying courage 40 years later. Countless of posters have shown how your logic in this matter is flawed. FunnyMan asked you to address the point I made earlier about such logic. Please tell me how you rationalize the notion that prior events negate nobility or courage at a later time by the same entity. You have yet to address that point. You are one hell of a tapdancer though. I'll give you that.
                                        Report Abuse
                                        • Author by DEMS_SOL (May 29, 2008 2:23 pm ET)
                                             

                                          Most people would agree that courage involves putting oneself at risk for the sake of another.  Ted Kennedy is a political Icon in Washington; his senate seat is secure, his comittee positions are secure regardless of what he says or does.  If you can explain how speaking out against the war put Ted Kennedy at any risk I will consider your point. 

                                          Report Abuse
                                        • Author by DEMS_SOL (May 29, 2008 2:27 pm ET)
                                             

                                          Please tell me how you rationalize the notion that prior events negate nobility or courage at a later time by the same entity.

                                          I did this somewhere forward in this thread

                                           

                                          Report Abuse
                                      • Author by BottleBlonde (May 29, 2008 6:44 pm ET)
                                           

                                        Do you really think that only people who DO things can be courageous, and that no one who simply says things can possibly be courageous?

                                        If that's the case, you deserve no respect whatsoever. That's crazy talk, because of course people who make courageous statements do exist.

                                        Report Abuse
                • Author by Col. Harlan Sanders (May 28, 2008 1:35 pm ET)
                     

                  How does that make you King? King of the eejits, maybe.

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by DEMS_SOL (May 28, 2008 2:03 pm ET)
                       
                    No king - it was a typo
                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by juliajayne (May 28, 2008 4:41 pm ET)
                       
                    Col., quit with the baby talk, sheesh :-0) You are such an eejit - a really enjoyable one. 
                    Report Abuse
        • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (May 28, 2008 1:01 pm ET)
             

          in 1969

          Right about the same time George W. Bush was coked up to the gills so often that he couldn't remember later if he had ever been coked up to the gills. 

          Report Abuse
          • Author by DEMS_SOL (May 28, 2008 1:05 pm ET)
               
            Either a very poor attempr at deflection or a glimmering example of how liberalism deteriorates your abinity to be cohesive - which would explain why Obama claimed to see dead people on Monday.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by Col. Harlan Sanders (May 28, 2008 1:14 pm ET)
                 
              Wait, DimSoul- did you just divert the thread to 1969 and then accuse somebody of creating a diversion by continuing with your 1969 theme? Good stuff!
              Report Abuse
              • Author by IRONY 101 (May 28, 2008 1:16 pm ET)
                   
                Let's just say that George W. Bush and Ted Kennedy each had his ups and downs in 1969. However, in 2002 it is obvious that Ted Kennedy's wisdom and judgment far surpassed that of George W. Bush.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by anyfreedomleft (May 28, 2008 3:14 pm ET)
                     
                  I would say that almost every moment in their lives, Ted's judgement was far better than George W. Bush's best moments ...
                  Report Abuse
              • Author by DEMS_SOL (May 28, 2008 1:23 pm ET)
                   
                Col - I was responding to Mary using the word "Couragous" to describe Ted Kennedy. Ted Kennedy is the subject. Please try to keep up!
                Report Abuse
                • Author by Col. Harlan Sanders (May 28, 2008 1:40 pm ET)
                     
                  I'll try to keep "up" with you, DS. Does anybody have a knitting needle, suitable for self-pithing?
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by Kyle_Broflovski (May 28, 2008 1:47 pm ET)
                     
                  Yes, try to keep up!  Wait, no!  Look over there!  Were you looking?  I thought I told you to keep up!
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by Col. Harlan Sanders (May 28, 2008 2:01 pm ET)
                       

                    Kyle, I'm trying, but it's tough. Dumsoul insists he was responding to Mary's assertion that Ted Kennedy was cooragous (or some similar word).

                    I don't believe a "Mary" has posted on this thread.Sueeld commented that TK "was courageous in 2002", so maybe DS was rebutting that by saying TK was not courageous 33 years earlier.

                    It's zany stuff, and a cautionary tale to the youngsters out there who may be tempted to turn on the EIB network "just once, for kicks".

                    It's your brain, kids. You only get one.

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by mary59 (May 28, 2008 2:10 pm ET)
                         
                      I just posted...but nothing related to demsol and his squawking points.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by DEMS_SOL (May 28, 2008 2:15 pm ET)
                           
                        My apologies for incorrectly citing you as labeling TK as "couragous"
                        Report Abuse
                      • Author by juliajayne (May 28, 2008 4:47 pm ET)
                           
                        Geeze Mary, first you are me on yesterday's thread. Now you are another poster. What lengths will you go to become another posters? It's outrageous, chica.
                        Report Abuse
                • Author by achrispage6992 (May 28, 2008 2:33 pm ET)
                     

                  He stood up for his beliefs at a time when anyone who showed any dissent was labeled un-american. That is a fact. Here is another fact. His assesments were spot on. It's nearly undeniable now that Bush led us to war with lies. His former press secretary has just added additional evidence to prove this.

                  Anyway, yeah Kennedy did an awful thing in 1969. I think it very possible that his INACTION MAY have contributed to the death of that woman. But we will never really know. Certainly we should be able to agree that he didn't just flat out murder the girl, (think intent here). If you want to dismiss the good things he has done since that time based on a past mistake go for it. I have to then assume that you hold all others to that pedastool as well. Was the efforts of this country in WWII any less noble because of our earlier policy towards Native Americans in the 19th century?Take a look at biblical figures. Was King David's contributions moot because of Bethsheba? Was Paul's subsequent works following his coversion any less noble because he was a "killer of many" before? Please explain to me how Kennedy's spot on assesments in 2002 are somehow nothing more than a mirage because of Chappaquidick in 1969? You really need to wise up kid.

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by mary59 (May 28, 2008 2:42 pm ET)
                       
                    Excellent post, thanks.
                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by DEMS_SOL (May 28, 2008 3:22 pm ET)
                       

                    Was King David's contributions moot because of Bethsheba? Was Paul's subsequent works following his coversion any less noble because he was a "killer of many" before?

                    Excellent examples to contrast to Ted Kennedy as both those men eventually confessed what they did and restored their credibility.  The press hasn't paid attention to Ted Kennedy for years because the man has no credibility.  The power to restore that credibility rests only in Kennedy himself - however as he has refused to do it for years to whine that the press refuses to give him credibility is laughable..

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by Kyle_Broflovski (May 28, 2008 3:50 pm ET)
                         

                      Yes, and after David confessed and repented for his sin, the Lord saw fit to punish him by 'smiting' Batsheba's newborn child with a severe illness that led to its death.  A truly kind and just punishment for an innocent child, praise the Lord for his mercy!

                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by DEMS_SOL (May 28, 2008 4:07 pm ET)
                           
                        Kyle - we are discussing Ted Kennedy here.  If you can't follow along you can be excused.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by Kyle_Broflovski (May 28, 2008 5:08 pm ET)
                             

                          Excuse yourself, DumbSol.  This thread is about the war, and how Ted Kennedy was absolutely right in 2002.  All you can talk about was something that happened 40 years ago - maybe you need to stop living in the past, and start trying to make today's world a better place!  You could do your part, too, by shutting your moron-hole.

                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by DEMS_SOL (May 28, 2008 5:50 pm ET)
                               
                            Kyle - need I remind you it was your chioce to respond to my post regarding Suefeld's comment that Kennedy was couragous.  An attention span greater than three posts is required if you wish to have some credibility.
                            Report Abuse
                    • Author by funnymanpants (May 28, 2008 7:00 pm ET)
                         

                      Dems soul wrote:

                      >>Excellent examples to contrast to Ted Kennedy as both those men eventually confessed what they did and restored their credibility. 

                      Yes, but you didn't answer Chris's point, did you? Instead, you shifted the force of his argument by bringing in biblical history--and then accused others of diverting the topic when they did the same!

                      Please answer Chris's argument. Does America's contribution in WW2 not  count because of its policies towards Native Americans? If we are discussing America's involvement in WW2, do we need to bring up its policy towards blacks each time? Of course, there was a country that did such a thing every time America was shown to do something good--the Soviet Union (and other dictatorships). Who knew you loved propaganda so much? 

                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by DEMS_SOL (May 29, 2008 9:38 am ET)
                           

                        Yes, but you didn't answer Chris's point, did you? Instead, you shifted the force of his argument by bringing in biblical history--and then accused others of diverting the topic when they did the same!

                        No- ACHRIS brought in biblical history to parrallel Teddy's misdeeds and their righteousness.  All I did was point out where is argument fails.

                        Please answer Chris's argument. Does America's contribution in WW2 not  count because of its policies towards Native Americans? If we are discussing America's involvement in WW2,

                        This argument is flawed in the context of this discussion in that we are talking about the actions of one man vs. the policies of a collective government. 

                        Report Abuse
        • Author by IRONY 101 (May 28, 2008 1:04 pm ET)
             

          ...but the guy is a bum!

          But spot on accurate in his opposition to Bush's war. Say what you want about Ted Kennedy and his past, but he was correct about the war, and courageous for saying it at a time when it was considered treason by some to oppose the war.

          Report Abuse
          • Author by DEMS_SOL (May 28, 2008 1:20 pm ET)
               

            It doesn't take courage to stand in front of a governing body and pontificate your beliefs as developed by a speech writer - especially when that's your job.  It takes courage to put the safety of others before your own at times when your own life may be on the line.  It takes courage to face up to your mistakes and admit, apologize, and ask forgiveness for your mistakes.  Do you think Teddy would hold a chapter in big brother John's "Profiles in Courage"? 

            Ted Kennedy - Couragous??? HA HA HA

            Report Abuse
            • Author by IRONY 101 (May 28, 2008 1:25 pm ET)
                 
              Au contraire... IMO in the aftermath of 9/11 it was a courageous act for Kenndy to satnd before the U.S. Senate and express views contrary to those deemed most patriotic in the country. Kennedy may not have been displayed courage in 1969...but he did in 2002.
              Report Abuse
            • Author by tommy (May 28, 2008 1:28 pm ET)
                 

              The point is, in my opinion, the press did not shirk its responsibility by their failure to mention Kennedy's speech in 2002 when news of his brain cancer was announced.  Despite Kennedy's past, his medical issues deserved the press it received, he has been a prominent Senator for over 40 years and a member of a famous family.

              However, in that context, to complain that a political speech he gave six years ago wasn't included is a head-scratcher. It had no relevance to his current cancer fight and that was rightly where the media focus should have been.  Not everything is about politics, even when covering a political figure....some things transcend political maneuverings, despite Boehlert's complaining.

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              • Author by tommy (May 28, 2008 1:31 pm ET)
                   
                Never mind, I see Boehlert's focus was previously, not now.  My apologies.
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                • Author by Governor (May 28, 2008 1:48 pm ET)
                     
                  Plus, you typed "complain" and "complaining" went you meant "whine" and "whining".
                  Report Abuse
        • Author by Sueelldd (May 28, 2008 2:06 pm ET)
             
          And Laura Bush killed a kid in her car , what is your point?
          Report Abuse
          • Author by DEMS_SOL (May 28, 2008 2:10 pm ET)
               

            what is your point?

            That your example of Ted Kennedy as "couragous" is lacking reality.

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            • Author by Governor (May 28, 2008 2:22 pm ET)
                 
              He's the opposite of the lemmings in The United States Congress, and the MSM, and the liars in The White House who got 4000+ US Troops killed.  That's what he is.
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              • Author by DEMS_SOL (May 28, 2008 2:32 pm ET)
                   

                So if Ted is the opposite of the little rats (lemmings) in congress, then Ted is the big rat? Agreed.  Thanks Gov!

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                • Author by Kyle_Broflovski (May 28, 2008 3:53 pm ET)
                     
                  So... how many troops do YOU think should die for the sake of Dubya's 'daddy issues'.  4,000 not enough for you?  Would you be satisfied at 10,000?
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by Governor (May 28, 2008 3:56 pm ET)
                       
                    He probably thinks 10,000 is the opposite of 4000.
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                  • Author by DEMS_SOL (May 28, 2008 4:25 pm ET)
                       
                    I think you should go to school and learn how not to drift off topic so often
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by juliajayne (May 28, 2008 4:53 pm ET)
                         
                      Jeter, or is it Mary I should address. Demsol the troll is complaining of people being off topic when he can't offer any substansive argument! I'm telling.
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                      • Author by mary59 (May 28, 2008 5:29 pm ET)
                           
                        With the colonel's permission, I will resign my post. He took the cake when he drove into that dyke comment.
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                      • Author by DEMS_SOL (May 28, 2008 5:54 pm ET)
                           
                        I have made valid arguments JJ - don't blame me if you can't follow along.
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                        • Author by Col. Harlan Sanders (May 28, 2008 6:48 pm ET)
                             
                          You poor thing, Demsol. It seems that nobody can follow along or keep up with you. Do you notice this in your real life as well? Ever consider that it may not be everybody else on the planet who's confused?
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by DEMS_SOL (May 29, 2008 5:56 pm ET)
                               
                            Actually Col experience has proven it is only the liberally handicapd mind that has a hard time following along.  Everyone else gets it.  Nothing that a good education can't correct though - you should try it.
                            Report Abuse
                    • Author by Kyle_Broflovski (May 28, 2008 5:17 pm ET)
                         

                      I think you should go to school and learn how not to drift off topic so often

                      Sorry, I wasn't homeschooled by lunatic wingnuts.  Is that where you learned about Chappaquiddick?

                      Report Abuse
    • Author by Governor (May 28, 2008 1:33 pm ET)
         
      For Immediate Release
      November 11, 2005

      Setting the Record Straight: Sen. Kennedy On Iraq

      "It is regrettable that Senator Kennedy has chosen Veteran's Day to continue leveling baseless and false attacks that send the wrong signal to our troops and our enemy during a time of war. It is also regrettable that Senator Kennedy has found more time to say negative things about President Bush then he ever did about Saddam Hussein. If America were to follow Senator Kennedy's foreign policy, Saddam Hussein would not only still be in power, he would be oppressing and occupying Kuwait."

      - Scott McClellan, White House Liar
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      • Author by anyfreedomleft (May 28, 2008 3:18 pm ET)
           

        Don't forget ... the "patriotic Republicans" were screaming, in the late 90s, that Robert MacNamara (sp?) didn't speak out early on about his misgivings about the Vietnam war ... all the time that they go on and on about how unpatriotic Dems are for opposing the war ...

        crazy ... and the Repugniconvicts may just be absolutely delusional ...

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    • Author by monstersound (May 28, 2008 3:30 pm ET)
         
      XLNT article. (hard to find reporting salient quotes these days). Thank you.
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    • Author by thomp.steve9098 (May 28, 2008 3:34 pm ET)
         

      Way off topic, but I'm gonna ramble here anyway.  Has anybody read "Counselor" by Ted Sorensen? It's new. I picked it up over the weekend and can't put it down.  It's a terrific book. Funny and informative. JFK was well before my time, but the book's one of the better autobiographical type books that I've read in a while. His anecdotal stories are great.  (How's that for an insightful comment on this article's theme?).

      Report Abuse
    • Author by laissezfairesucks (May 28, 2008 3:56 pm ET)
         

      This may be a bit off topic...but WHY is Media Matters IGNORING the current "staying-in-the-race-because-Obama-might-get assassinated" SMEAR against Hillary Clinton?

      I cannot think of a more important time for Media Matters to stand up and defend a Democratic politician against media manipulation, cropped video clips, distorted interpretations etc. !!!!!!!

      Report Abuse
      • Author by DEMS_SOL (May 28, 2008 4:29 pm ET)
           
        Because they know it's true - they just can't believe she actually said it.  Calling more attention to it helps no one.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by edella1793 (May 28, 2008 7:31 pm ET)
           
        How is it a smear when that is what she was saying?
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        • Author by BottleBlonde (May 29, 2008 12:15 am ET)
             

          If she were truly saying that, it would not be a smear. It would be the truth. The truth is not a smear. But it's not the truth, so it is a smear.

          She was not saying anything about assassinating Obama. It was about primary fights going on into June. There was a primary fight still going on when Kennedy was assassinated on my birthday in 1967.

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    • Author by john174541842 (May 29, 2008 12:30 pm ET)
         
      Ahh yes, when we are clearing kicking a** in Iraq, have al queda on the run, have al-sadr giving up power, and have the Iraqis claiming they will be able to completely handle Baghdad security on their own in 2009....the left brings up old, pointless, and boring talking points about the past.  I'm sorry you do not agree with why we went to Iraq, or what we are doing there, or how the media covered anti-war statements by teddy in 2002....but the fact of the matter is, we are winning big time right now, like America always does, yet the "honor" of liberal democrats lies in failure in Iraq.  Sorry, but you ain't gettin it.
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      • Author by john174541842 (May 29, 2008 12:31 pm ET)
           
        And while I'm at it, I'm going to give this article a much more appropriate title:  "Why does the left ignore military victories in 2008?"
        Report Abuse
        • Author by mary59 (May 29, 2008 1:20 pm ET)
             
          John many numbers, do you have a dog in this fight?
          Report Abuse
          • Author by john174541842 (May 29, 2008 1:33 pm ET)
               

            Yes I do.

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            • Author by mary59 (May 29, 2008 7:23 pm ET)
                 
              Well again, please illuminate what dog is in the fight and how would the U.S. achieve "victory". Seems to me that we already "won" the war and are now in the middle of an occupation, putting our troops at risk in a civil war with some terrorists who use our presence there as a recruitment tool.
              Report Abuse
      • Author by foghornleghorn (May 29, 2008 12:37 pm ET)
           

        left brings up old, pointless, and boring talking points about the past.

        Those pesky talking points.  Are you referring to the lies, the unneccessary death, or the wasted billions of dollars.

        And by the way, if we're doing so well of there, can we come home now?

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        • Author by john174541842 (May 29, 2008 1:32 pm ET)
             

          Well, if you consider liberating an opressed people, toppling a brutal regime, boosting an economy, gaining a key ally in the middle east, and spreading freedom...all while whacking boat loads of terrorists, an unecessary waste, I cannot reason with you.

          And yes, the Iraqis taking over Baghdad security is a big step towards sending troops home.  But we will not leave until the Iraqis have secured the entire country, and complete victory is achieved.  Anything other than that would indeed be unnecessary death and wasted money.

          Report Abuse
          • Author by foghornleghorn (May 29, 2008 5:26 pm ET)
               

            You are delusional.  Did you know that the money spent/wasted in Iraq, could have paid for every child's health care AND a college education?  Isn't that more important than freeing some NON-AMERICANS in a far off land?

            Not in your warped mind, no-sir-ee.  You're so scared of those evil Arabs that you believe we had to invade their country with result being hundreds of thousands of DEATHS.

            Why do you hate America so much?

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          • Author by bfbenn (May 30, 2008 10:48 am ET)
               

            Wow...just Wow.

            I guess there really IS a parallel universe, and apparently MMA is a portal between them!

            John# - nothing of what you type represents reality on this side of the wormhole!

            Report Abuse
    • Author by representativepress (May 30, 2008 5:45 am ET)
         
      Kennedy is another shit who ignores international law and the US law to uphold treaties.
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