Down for the count: The real fight for 2012
The fight for 2012 is here. Beltway media insiders rejoice!
Who's it going to be? Spunky Sarah? Moneyed Mitt? Holy Huckabee? Some dark-horse candidate flying under the radar? One thing is for sure: While the media clamors for every tiny detail in the looming battle for the Republican presidential nomination, the real fight for 2012 is taking place right before their very eyes.
Conventional-wisdom channelers in Washington, wittingly or not, have already been put to use by conservatives so determined to win that few facts remain untwisted. The fight over the 2010 census, which will ultimately dictate how congressional districts are drawn in 2012 and potentially influence party control of Congress for years to come, has already started.
We've seen the battle lines drawn in recent weeks, most notably with Sen. Judd Gregg's decision to step down as President Obama's nominee for Commerce secretary. Despite Gregg's statements to the contrary, many media reports have continued to suggest the New Hampshire Republican's decision to withdraw his nomination was based primarily on purported White House plans to be more deeply involved in next year's census.
Though Gregg has said the census was "not a major issue" in his decision to step aside, conservatives in the media have trumped up the controversy to hype misleading and, at times, outright false talking points designed to poison the well of public opinion surrounding the decennial census.
So, did the White House take the census out of the Commerce Department in a maddening display of partisan politics? If you watch cable news programs like MSNBC's Morning Joe, you'd be inclined to think so. Host Joe Scarborough recently said on the show: "[T]his is the rawest of raw politics, where you're going to take the census out of the Commerce Department, where as you said, they're professionals who have done this forever, and bring it inside the White House."
For all of his self-righteous indignation, Scarborough couldn't be more wrong.
In fact, while the White House has reportedly assured progressives that it will be directly involved in the census, it has repeatedly denied right-wing claims that the Commerce secretary will no longer oversee the Census Bureau. Earlier this month, spokesman Ben LaBolt stated that the administration intends to "return" to the "historical precedent for the director of the Census, who works for the commerce secretary and the president, to work closely with White House senior management." Following continued right-wing fury over the White House's census strategy, LaBolt later said "[t]his administration has not proposed removing the census from the Department of Commerce and the same congressional committees that had oversight during the previous administration will retain that authority."
This faux controversy -- sparked by the right-wing-fueled false notion that the Obama administration planned to take control of the census away from the Commerce Department, resting it entirely within the White House -- is far from the only front in this fight.
Back in 1997, as things were beginning to heat up for the 2000 census, conservatives were hell-bent on prohibiting the Clinton administration from using statistical sampling to count those who slipped through the cracks during the mail and door-to-door count of Americans. True to form, this line of attack is making a return.
Echoing right-wing science-haters, supposed MSNBC liberal Chris Matthews recently described the statistical sampling method as the "loosey-goosey census approach."
"Loosey-goosey," or more accurate?
In the years leading up to the last census, a host of scientific associations came out in support of statistical sampling. The Center for Science, Technology and Congress at the American Association for the Advancement of Science stated that "statistical sampling is widely regarded by the science community as an effective and accurate tool" while the American Statistical Association (ASA) argued that "statistically designed sampling" is "a valid, important, and generally accepted scientific method for gaining accurate knowledge about widely dispersed human populations" and that "properly designed sampling is often a better and more accurate method of gaining such knowledge than an inevitably incomplete survey of all members of such a population." The ASA further noted in its brief, "There are no sound scientific grounds for rejecting all use of statistical sampling in the 2000 census."
Confront conservatives with sound scientific opinion such as this, and, after their heads stop spinning, they'll likely offer up the canard that the Supreme Court has ruled that statistical sampling for the apportionment of congressional districts is unconstitutional.
The Rev. Sun Myung Moon's notoriously conservative Washington Times did just that in reporting that "[m]inority groups, quietly encouraged by Democrats, led a charge in 2000 to challenge the census, urging that statistical sampling and computer models -- not the head-count 'actual enumeration' mandated by the Constitution -- should be employed. That despite a 1999 Supreme Court ruling that sampling could not be used to apportion congressional seats."
Those darned activist judges! Or is it the newspapers?
Let's get something straight. In the case so often cited by the right, Department of Commerce v. United States House of Representatives, the Supreme Court did not consider nor did they decide whether the Constitution barred the use of sampling in congressional apportionment. The Supreme Court actually said that a congressional statute barred such sampling and explicitly said it was not deciding the constitutional issue. So, if Congress were to change said statute, statistical sampling could very well become a viable option.
Fights with such high political stakes often end up in the mud of spin and conjecture. In the weeks and months ahead, we're likely see more scientific, legalistic, and otherwise baseless wrangling from the right. After all, their ability to regain a congressional majority may hang in the balance. That is why the media's role of informing the public debate with facts and sound reason is so important.
Thus far, however, their record to that end has been spotty at best.
Karl Frisch is a senior fellow at Media Matters for America. Frisch also contributes to County Fair, a media blog featuring links to progressive media criticism from around the web as well as original commentary. You can follow him on Twitter and Facebook or sign-up to receive his columns by email.




















So lets recap. Obama wants to bring the census under white house control. Who do you think will gain voters that way? I am sure senior white house management is up to the task.
Concerning the head count, even the author admits that the constitution requires an actual count…… “the head-count 'actual enumeration' mandated by the Constitution” Guess the constitution does not apply to dems.
Finally, the group he cites the ASA states “There are no sound scientific grounds for rejecting all use of statistical sampling in the 2000 census." The republicans have never tried to reject all methods, just those pure partisan attempts to inflate Dem numbers. MMFA and the dems are wrong again.
...ust those pure partisan attempts to inflate Dem numbers.
I understand that you've been trained by people who think saying they're right makes them right, but you're outside of your bubble here. Do you have anything to back up your description of those pure,partisan attempts, or is this just a "feeling"?
Do you ever have a comment of substance to make? If so, I have never seen it. In post after post, its always the same thing. You never present a fact, never make an intelligent remark, its simply you are wrong and I am right. Dont you ever get tired of the same old thing. I know you wont start making sense now. I know how hard it is, being surrounded by people who believe in God like you said the other day. Again, I just feel sorry for you.
Thanks, you answered my question.
Kind of ironic that someone who apparently resents that you "never present a fact, never make an intelligent remark" would summarize with sarcasm which implies that it's your "ungodliness" that makes him sympathize, don't you think?
The "God" part was referring to yet another subject Pointy was completely baffled by recently, nothing that "I said the other day".
I know I should just leave them alone, but it's too much fun to see the indignant blow-ups when you mention that their pants are down around their ankles.
I do appreciate the sympathy of the insane, though.
Um.... POV...
Nowhere in the Col. post did he claim to be right and you are wrong...
What he did do was ask you to back up your description of all those pure partisan attempts at Dems trying to control the census in 2000 or now...
So instead of deflecting and resorting to cry baby status... why not give a few links that proves your assumption?
That's not at all hard for someone like you that has the truth on his side.... is it?
Don't hold your breath, Capt F. Looks like Pointy shot the wad with the first post.
I get the feeling that right now.... POV is hard at work scanning the internets for all that proof he knows is out there......... somewhere....... lurking in the shadows.... but have no doubt Col. .... he will find it.... even if he has to pull it from the Drudge Report or some long forgotten post he wrote all those years ago on Rush Limbaugh's website.... or was it Jeff Christie.... I can never remember...
like Billo, he came out both guns blazing but didnt bother to take them out of the holster
Do you ever have a comment of substance to make?
Looks like POV is talking to himself again.
hey point are you not doing the very thing that you are accusing the Col. of? i dont see any credible evidence. i see neo con talking points
Wow. For a minute there I thought the COlonel had double post and this was a response to YOUR post.
Project much?
Gee, How'd shrub handle it, sport? Remind everyone just how he dealt with the matter?
Did he have a Dem Secretary of Commerce under strict instructions not to have any contact with Karl or the political folks in the administration or any of his intermediaries to keep the process pure as the driven snow.
Just like toxic tommy delay's handling of it in Texas, for example.
Gops concerned with partisan politics and the purity and sanctity of the census process. That's a good one, little fella.
I remember how Delay handled things here in Texas. He redistricted on an off year. Nothing like twisting the law to fulfill a political agenda.
Ya gotta love those short gop memories and attention spans when they're givin' lectures on political/personal integrity, honor and ethics.
That Tennessee Taliban has so much credibility on that and every other front.
Yeah, toxic tommy was just gerrymanderin' for Jesus.
And didn't hot tub tom use government resources (highway patrol planes?) to search for the "missing" state legislators who fled to Oklahoma? That's right - to escape the tyranny of tom the terrible and try to maintain the normal democratic process, they were forced to leave their home state. And tommy hunted them down.
Pointofview. Thank you for your comments on my column.
To your 1st statement. The White House did not seek to bring the census under their "control." They oversee the Commerce Department and Census Bureau and simply put progressives at ease that they need not worry about a Republican Secretary -- they would be involved in the census, just like previous administrations.
The notion that traditionally, the Commerce Department doesn't do what the White House wants is absurd. The White House is always going to have influence over what happens at the Census Bureau. They are in charge of the executive branch... in Democratic AND Republican administrations. To think for a minute that the Census Bureau is unaffected by a change in White House leadership is just bunk.
Who do I think will gain voters that way? Well, I know that people of color have historically been underrepresented in traditional census counts. Now, you can say that these people will vote for progressives and that is the only reason progressives want this method employed. By the same logic one could say the only reason conservatives don't want this method is because more people of color would be counted who would end up voting for progressives. Seems like faulty logic to me.
To your 2nd statement. A nice interpretation of what you think I said, but that is not what I wrote. I state that when this issue was before the Supreme Court, the Court specifically said they not deciding the constitutionality of statistical sampling. I've read the ruling, have you?
Two your 3rd statement. You'd actually have to prove your contention to merit a response from me. As a general rule (there are no real absolutes) Republicans in the House and Senate have historically opposed efforts to use statistical sampling in favor of the door-to-door and mail count method.
ouch point of view schooled yet again
Thank you, Mr. Frisch, that was very kind of you to take the time to respond point by point to POV.You'll notice he completely ignored you, and moved on to his next bit of nonsense.
POV, the next time you go off on a little crybaby rant about somebody asking you to support your BS, as you did to me above, remember that some of us have been posting here for a while, and know your little troll games pretty well. I used to waste some time trying to have discussion with you and your co-trolls, but you've just illustrated why there's no point to that.
Suck it up, you got caught peddling crap, and responded by lashing out at me, accusing me of not responding to your "substance". The author of this item took the time, and you pretend you don't see it and drop another pile.
If you're fooling yourself, you're only fooling one person.
OOPs, my mistake, that's Philib, not POV who posted. I don't know how I could have confused one with the other. ;0)
pointofview, can you offer a contrast here between statistical methods Republicans have said they would accept, as opposed to statistical methods which are "pure partisan attempts to inflate Dem numbers." Are there reported examples?
I agree that there is a significant constitutional issue here, although it does appear that the case cited by the Washington Times did not address it.
and how is that any different from a neo con in control of it? im sure you wouldnt see a complete restructuring favorable to neo con desires
Did you read the article? Your "recap" is flat-out wrong.
I think the real fight for 2012 will come from democrats who have a leader who shares the ideals and beliefs of Bush/co. In his 'exit Iraq' speech, did anyone notice how Obama echoed what Bush implied many years ago? Obama: "And so I want to be very clear: We sent our troops to Iraq to do away with Saddam Hussein's regime, and you got the job done. We kept — we kept our troops in Iraq to help establish a sovereign government, and you got the job done."
Can anyone tell me the difference between "got the job done" and "mission accomplished"?
No flight suit.
No aircraft carrier.
No codpiece.
No gargantuan banner.
No evil smirk.
And a plan to bring the soldiers home
Actually, they probably won't come home. They will go to Afghanistan. A few will come home, though.
Actually. probably, will, few. From the font of perpetual neocon reserection, amen.
Which makes no sense when faced with facts that Obama and Bush agree the invasion of Iraq was one independant purpose and the remaing fight was different. While the many anti-war crowd who insanely claim an "endless war" now have a leader who believes as Bush does concerning the success of our invasion of Iraq and the success of our war on terror in Iraq. I wonder if those minion will denegrate Obama as they have Bush for those beliefs.
Obama has been consistently against the war and called it a distraction from the War on Terror. He is simply saying to the soldiers themselves that they did a good job for what they were sent for, which is a good thing in my opinion.
However, unlike those who loved this war, he is actually saying "good job, now let's end this" rather than "good job, now stay".
Unfortunately, he's not saying 'lets end this', he is saying 'lets transfer troops to Afghanistan and Pakistan', we'll still have around 50K troops in Iraq. So, while your attempt to change his statement to be more 'liberal freindly', it just doesn't work in reality. He didn't say "good job" he said "you got the job done".
Well maybe we'll finally catch Bin Laden and end the violence of his Taliban co-horts. Wouldn't that be a noble battle in the War on Terror?
Noble indeed. However, to think al queda will stop attacking or "end the violence" simply because one man is dead/captured is being a bit naive.
So by the world view that you've presented to us so often this leaves us only two paths. Military domination, to the point of genocide, if you neocons think it necessary. Or spineless liberal appeasement.
Both suck and have no basis as anywhere near a reality based solution.
Actually, the world view I've presented you is 'military action until successful' and then asked if Obama's clear message that the mission was completed (just as Bush said) is distasteful to liberals who feel it is a never ending war. But, as usual, that question is totally ignored by liberals fearful of presenting themselves as the hypocrits they are.
Military action untill sucessful? Sucess would be defined how? How do you defeat a tactic?
You feel ok calling 70%+ of the american population hypocrits on such wimpy logic?
"Sucess would be defined how? How do you defeat a tactic?"
We removed Saddam and totally changed the government. We fought terrorists who hide behind women and children while reducing the unintended dead. Unfortunately, the terrorists had NO problem killing women and children, even innocent men, so the number of civilians killed is terrible. Once the masses figured out they didn't want to live with terror our side took better control of the situation.
How can you say no success resulted from our extraction of Saddam? We changed an entire culture in one area from tyranical to understanding in just 6 years. Obama is able to say 'we can leave' because we are successful in Iraq. I think he is being very bold, but I agree with him. I've been reading stories of success in Iraq for many years, (the MSM does a good job of keeping it under wraps though) I figured this would happen sooner or later. I'm glad it's sooner.
Do you really believe 70% of Americans don't think this way? Why would 70% of Americans be as pessimistic as you indicate you are. The appeasement attitude is simply a pessimists way of dealing with confrontation. I don't think 70% of Americans are that pessimistic.
i thought the war was to look for weapons of mass destruction? oops....finally admitted that the reason for iraq conflict was a complete and utter lie?
and by the way before we invaded....there were no terrorists in iraq. they decided to come there and have embedded themselves. so its our fault they are there. cause we gave them a rallying cry. so good job phil. keep on plugging away
someday maybe you will be able to convince 2 people that your are right while the rest of the world knows you are absurdly wrong.
go back o worldnetdaily or thepowerlne, or El Rushbo and bow to your masters, but get out of here and leave us to speak truth
Ooops, wrong again. Obama specifically said we went there to get Saddam; Obama- "you got the job done", then we were to create a sovereign government; Obama- "you got the job done". Even with external foes involved, they got the job done. Are you saying Obama is NOT speaking the truth? Are you insulted by HIS statements? Sorry, pal. No wnd or rushbo, just Obama and HIS words. Got a problem with that?
Oh look, phil is taking words Obama never uttered and attributed them to him! How sweet, phil once again thinks he knows what Obama meant with his statement.
No phil, what we are saying is that you and you philosophies were full of hockey puck and no amount of spinning on your part can ever prove Obama implied your failed policies were successful. The soldiers fulfilled their combat duties, and regardless of the failed republican strategies that sent them there, and regardless of their utter failure, as soldiers they executed as called to do and were thanked properly by Obama for it.
Obama never said? Oh man are you ever delusional. I posted exactly what he said. Having trouble swallowing your pride are you?
and how long would the until successful be? 100 years? 50 years?
Looks like 6 years. Otherwise Obama would not be removing troops from Iraq. Is that so long to change a nation and the thought patterns of it's inhabitants? It's sad that we have accomplished our mission and you extreme liberals refuse to accept it. So, when do you start harping on Obama because of his 'mission accomplished' mentallity? I'll bet not quite as quick as you did Bush. Even though FACTS show the mission was accomplished under Bush and Obama will get all the accolades. That's sure going to be hard for you extreme liberals to accept isn't it?
Judging by the racist wing of the republican party, I'd say 100 years isn't enough to change the thought patterns of its inhabitants. Since it appears (in wingnut logic, that is) that the only real win will be through genocide of an entire race, religion or country, I say let's go for it. You and your wingnut buds are first...
See above post for example of unrecognizable rant against anyone who isn't snoopy. :) Keep up the good work.
no it wont, but without their figurehead they wont be as organized or ass well led
what do you expect the president obama to do? he had a pile of crap shoveled to him, and knowing that if he just leaves its going to stink everything that he has to do something about it.
I expected him to do exactly what he's doing ... removing troops from an area where it is safe to remove them from. Just as I said earlier. Thanks to the good work of Bush and his soldiers, he just ran out of time to get them removed himself. Now, it's up to Obama to do it. See... this will be good for Obama, he will get all the credit for getting us out of the Iraq war, but Bush did all the work. Just like the economic situation didn't happen under Obama, neither did the securing of Iraq. Obama inherited the bad and the good.
Now, are you going to continue doing what foghorn, dogone, ewes, tman and snoopy are doing? They all ignored the question; Can anyone tell me the difference between "got the job done" and "mission accomplished"?
Can anyone tell me the difference between "got the job done" and "mission accomplished"?
About 3 years and 4,000 lives (not counting innocent Iraqis).
But, judging from your reading ability. Obama said the mission to remove and after we removed Saddam is a different mission (which also was completed). Since you can't tell the difference between either, you should probably choose to NOT answer something you have no clue about.
The WH should explain their intention to be "more involved" in the census. What does "more involved" mean, with examples?
ensure that no one will try and screw with it?
Of course the whole issue is about politics...and unfortunately its been that way for a long time.
But Frisch can not claim the moral high ground for the democrats. Pres.Clinton tried to institute sampling to increase the amount of democrat voters...Pres.Bush opposed sampling because he wanted fewer democrat voters.
Yep, it's all about votes...regardless of all the spin from both sides. Most everyone agrees that there are several million minorites that do not get included in the count...and they vote almost exclusively democrat.
I oppose sampling for assigning congressional representation for one reason...it's just another step in dumbing down American principles. It is your duty to report to the Census Dept...it's not optional. If you're too lazy to fill out the census report...you don't deserve to be included in the process and benefits of American society.
"Pres.Clinton tried to institute sampling to increase the amount of democrat voters...Pres.Bush opposed sampling because he wanted fewer democrat voters."
Let me ask you something wesley...
Whether Republican or Democrat... if one or the other were to go out of there way to guarantee that each and every single eligible voter in the USA got the absolute right to both A) Vote and B) Be counted as part of the electorate...
Yet... by doing so it actually turned out that the more people on said voter rolls were in fact going to vote Democrat by virtue of the Democrats being the real party of the people... and the Republicans went out of there way to suppress voters Constitutional right of 'one vote, one person'
Based on what you posted above... I'd say you advocate the suppression of peoples right to vote and/or be counted... or am I wrong on this?
I'm curious to know whether you think its ok for a party to undermine the very institutions it goes out of its way to get elected to run those institutions?
Because historically speaking... the Dems would be fools to want anyones vote being suppressed... as the more people that are allowed to vote... the more Dems win...
Which is exactly why the Republicans have for decades been trying to keep certain people from being able to vote!
-- I'd say you advocate the suppression of peoples right to vote and/or be counted... or am I wrong on this? -- capn
You'd be wrong.
My comment had nothing at all to do with suppressing the right of "one vote/one person". What I did say was that if you're too lazy to complete the census form you don't deserve the representation and benefits of being recognized. Being a US citizen not only has certain rights...but certain responsibilities...like voluntarily filling out the census.
I am in favor of accurately "counting" the population...and I don't care if that meant that every single undercounted citizen turned out to be a democrat voter...and subsequently the democrat party gained in the apportionment of congressional representation.
What I am not in favor of is more partisan big brother politics by either party...and I am really tired of the govt. rewarding losers...like those failing to do their duty and report to the census dept.
Failing to fill out the census does not constrain anyone's ability to register and vote. Short of being in the hospital in a coma...there are very few legitimate excuses for not voting. Mostly it means you're too lazy or you don't care.
mmfa and others trumpet the use of sampling...citing its reliability. Using that methodology why not just do away with all the polling booths and determine our elections by sampling?
Voting and being properly represented in congress is the right of every citizen...but it also comes with responsibility. That responsiblity is to get off one's lazy backside and cast a ballot for anyone you choose and the responsibility to get off one's lazy backside and fill out the census.
Let the chips fall where they may.
I believe it is the governments obligation to determine the most accurate count possible, regardless of the actions of the citizens. If sampling is deemed to be more accurate than an actual count (no idea how that would be determined to be the case) then that's how it should be done IMO.
I don't see this as rewarding losers as much as I see it as government trying to get the most accurate count possible. Of course, an engaged citizenry would be much appreciated.
bruce...how would you square sampling to determine the outcome of elections with sampling to determine the census count...under the premise of "government trying to get the most accurate count possible"?
I would say that a persons existence is a matter of fact whereas a persons voting choice is subject to change until they fill out the ballot. I think that would be the problem with using sampling to determine elections.
Also, when you fill out, or are counted in the census, they don't register you as a democrat, or a republican. So I'm not sure what all of this "outrage" is about counting more democrats than republicans. It's a counting, of the people, living here in the US. Simple as that.
After reading THIS article, I want to know where I can get some of THAT stuff you're smoking? That stuff must be the bombdiggity! I am shocked by the depth of this. Not only is there a man that makes a living writing this stuff, there is someone willing to pay for this!!!! Was this written out of the kindness of his heart? Lord knows we should not work or be too greedy here.
I have been blogging for a while now and there are two points about most Obama supporters that stand out. If you disagree or just want to understand these folks wild thought processes, give it up now. There are millions of Americans that drank the cool aid and are still going to chug this for a while til they feel the effects. Millions more cannot tell you the difference between a democrat or Republican. Millions saw only skin color or did what their friend told them was right. In my opinion McCain was just as bad as Obama as an experienced choice. Next, do expect meaningless drivel and derogatory remarks directed at you personally when you disagree with Obama or any democratic policy or talk of any future policy. This is just the way it is. As much as we all would like to have friendly debates about policy, it ain't gonna happen. They're right and we are all treasonous Bush supporters that deserve to be hanged even if you were not a Bush fan. Finally, democrats do not have support their argument, they only have to tear YOU down to get you to be quiet. To respond to the last post, how was Obama able to list every registered democrat on my street or any other street on his own website and then the polling booth did not require any id to vote? I could have voted for Obama as my neighbor and I would not have been caught! What a shame so many died for a right that is being treated so horribly by officials...