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Jamison Foser
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Karl Rove, Super Genius

May 22, 2009 8:32 am ET

Karl Rove has a regular Wall Street Journal column. He's a Fox News contributor. Newsweek hired him as a contributor. As Gloria Borger said in 2007: "[W]hen Rove speaks, the political class pays attention -- usually with good reason."

But it is increasingly clear that there isn't really any "good reason" to pay attention to what Rove says.

I don't say that because Rove's immoral and possibly criminal behavior was notable even in an administration defined by immoral and possibly criminal behavior, or because he advocates policies that have failed again and again. You could make a pretty good argument for either of those attributes disqualifying him from a place of honor in the media, but they are beside the point. The media don't pay attention to Karl Rove because of his policy gravitas or his moral rectitude. They pay attention to him because of his political judgment; because he is Karl Rove, Super Genius.

Or so they think.

The reality is that Rove's political judgment is wildly overrated.

The basis of the media's belief that Rove is a political savant would seem to be fairly unimpeachable. After all, he did manage to guide George W. Bush, of all people, into the White House.

But look closer. Bush (and Rove) had the benefit of running against a candidate the media absolutely loathed -- and lied about. The media loved Bush. (And why not? He gave them nicknames! Stretch! Ha!) The country was at peace, the economy was strong, and so the public was not as concerned as they might otherwise have been about handing the country over to someone who confused the prime minister of Canada with an order of cheese fries.

So, the Bush campaign had some things going for them. Still, the campaign was a nail-biter. And at the end, it was clear that the presidency would come down to a handful of states that were essentially toss-ups, most notably Florida. So what did Karl Rove, Super Genius, do? He sent his candidate to California and New Jersey, two states he didn't have a prayer of winning.

But for a series of lucky (for Bush and Rove) accidents, the decision may well have cost Bush the presidency. Had thousands of elderly Jewish voters in South Florida not mistakenly voted for Pat Buchanan because of a flawed ballot design; had Florida not purged thousands of legal voters from its rolls; had the Supreme Court ordered a recount of the entire state rather than installing Bush in a decision so baseless the court indicated that it should not be used as precedent going forward -- had random, dumb luck not intervened -- Bush would have lost the election by a razor-thin margin. And Rove's decision to send his candidate to California at the end of the campaign would be remembered as one of the most spectacular blunders in American history. He'd be a laughingstock.

Well, the fact that a stupidly designed ballot confused some elderly Jewish voters into casting their ballots for the nation's most famous defender of Adolf Hitler doesn't make Rove's late-campaign focus on California and New Jersey any less foolish.

Nor did Rove display the unerring political acumen the media ascribes to him upon entering the White House. As Slate's Jacob Weisberg put it, Rove "managed to lose control of the Senate for his side without an election, when a neglected Republican moderate, Jim Jeffords of Vermont, quit the GOP."

True, Republicans picked up seats in 2002, and Bush won re-election in 2004. But those victories come with the biggest, boldest asterisk you can imagine. After the worst terrorist attack in American history occurred on Bush's watch, the public rallied around him to the tune of a 90-percent approval rating. By the time Rove left Bush's side in August 2007, only a third of that support remained.

The great strategic insight of the 2004 Bush re-election campaign (unless you count "get attacked by terrorists and start an unnecessary war on false pretenses" as a political strategy) was that the president could be re-elected by appealing to the base rather than the center. But that was Matthew Dowd's realization, not Rove's.

Then there were the 2006 midterm elections, which Rove decided to make into a referendum on a spectacularly unpopular president's spectacularly unpopular handling of the Iraq war. Not a bad strategy -- if only Rove were a Democrat. Amazingly, as Eric Boehlert detailed at the time, the media bought into Rove's strategy. Mark Halperin said the Democrats should be "scared to death about November's elections." The Note added that Iraq looked like "a 2006 political winner for the Republican Party."

By the fall of 2006, it had been clear for at least a year that the GOP was in a shambles. (In September 2005, I wrote in amazement that media pundits like Howard Fineman were able to "gaze upon the smoldering wreckage of the Republican Party and conclude that Democrats have good reason to be gloomy.") And yet when Rove implausibly claimed that the Republicans would be just fine in the coming elections -- he had "The Math," he insisted -- many in the media took his absurd fantasies seriously. ABC's Claire Shipman, for example, told viewers that the "political Svengali" had presented "a compelling scenario" for the Republicans to hold onto Congress.

Just a week later, the "Svengali" and his "math" took a "thumpin'," as Bush called it.

In 2007, Rove took his political genius back to the private sector, where he continued his streak of offering jaw-droppingly poor political assessments that were, for no apparent reason, taken seriously by the media. Upon announcing his departure from the White House, Rove predicted his boss would "move back up in the polls" (despite jettisoning Rove, Bush's poll numbers remained at historically low levels for the rest of his presidency) and that Republicans had a "very good chance" of winning the 2008 presidential election. Later, Rove predicted Republicans would pick up seats in the 2008 congressional elections. Wrong again: Republicans lost 21 seats in the House and eight in the Senate.

Nor has Rove's track record improved since President Obama took office, as a look at his recent Wall Street Journal columns makes clear.

On March 12, Rove tried to assess the politics of criticism of Rush Limbaugh:

Was it smart politics and good policy? No. ... The West Wing looked populated by petulant teenagers intent on taking down a popular rival. Such talk also shortens the president's honeymoon by making him look like a street-fighting Chicago pol instead of an inspirational, unifying figure. The upward spike in ratings for Rush and other conservative radio commentators shows how the White House's attempt at a smackdown instead energized the opposition.

How does that assessment of what is and isn't "smart politics" look two months later? President Obama: Still popular. The "opposition": Not so much.

And to whom did the White House appear "populated by petulant teenagers"? Not to the public. To whom did Obama "look like a street-fighting Chicago pol instead of an inspirational, unifying figure"? Not to the public.

More Rove:

Did it do any good with voters not strongly tied to either party? I suspect not. With stock markets down, unemployment growing, banks tottering, consumers anxious, business leaders nervous, and the economy shrinking, the Obama administration's attacks on a radio talk show host made it seem concerned with the trivial.

To whom did the Obama administration "seem concerned with the trivial"? Again, not to the public.

A week later, on March 19, Rove wrote that "President Barack Obama ... is unwittingly giving the Republicans an opening." Rove explained that Obama's decision to sign a spending bill that contained earmarks would cause him problems, given his campaign criticism of earmarks, and that Obama's comments about the economy (which Rove misrepresented) would blow up in his face:

With the Dow at 7,486 and unemployment at 8.1%, Mr. Obama says the economy is fundamentally sound. Does he suppose the nation won't recall him attacking John McCain last September for saying the same thing -- when the Dow was at 11,000 and unemployment at 6.2%?

Well, two months later, how does that bit of political prognostication look? How many Americans do you think have any idea what Rove was even talking about?

Rove continued:

Republicans sense the opportunity. The House GOP leadership deputized the top Budget Committee Republican, Paul Ryan of Wisconsin, to prepare an alternative budget. The GOP budget won't raise taxes, gets spending and debt under control, and will result in a stronger economy with more jobs. House Republicans plan a major selling effort back home during the coming recess. Minority Leader John Boehner is already up on YouTube extolling the plan.

Yeah? And how did that work out? Oh, right: they looked like buffoons, promising an alternative budget and instead producing a widely ridiculed pamphlet that contained a few nonsensical charts but no actual "budget."

Rove's next column, in praise of the "tea party" nonsense cable news inflicted on viewers for days on end, purported to assess public opinion about taxes:

The fear of future federal tax hikes is fueling the tea-party movement.

This is an important development. In 2008, voters were less worried about taxes than they had been in previous elections.

[...]

It hasn't gotten a ton of attention, but people are fed up with the complexity of their tax code and ready to do something about it. The Tax Foundation's 2009 Annual Tax Attitudes (which was conducted Feb. 18-27, by Harris) shows us that many Americans are willing to trade popular deductions for lower rates and a simpler code. There's also been a flurry of interest among Americans in replacing the current system with a national sales tax or a flat tax.

[...]

The 2009 Tax Foundation survey found that Americans believe that taxes should, on average, take just 15.6% of a person's wages. And 88% of Americans in the same poll believe that there should be a cap on all federal, state, and local taxes of 29% or less -- there is still a constituency out there that will favor tax cutting politicians.

Would it surprise you to learn that the Tax Foundation's 2006 Annual Tax Attitudes poll found much the same thing? Well, it did. In that poll, a majority of Americans were willing to trade deductions for a simpler code; the mean response to the question about how much Americans should pay in taxes was 15 percent; when asked to choose from a flat tax, sales tax, or the current system, 53 percent said either flat or sales. The 2007 poll found basically the same thing. (There wasn't a 2008 poll.)

So Rove is pointing to all this polling data as though it shows an "important development" -- an increase in public concern about taxes. But the polling data he points to is basically the same as it has been for years. This is his evidence that -- unlike 2008, when the public was "less worried about taxes than they had been in previous elections" -- people are suddenly up in arms about taxes? Polling data that show the public isn't currently more worried about taxes than it has been in recent years? Surely the great Karl Rove knows that if you want to assess movement in public opinion, you have to look at trend lines, not single data points?

Oh, and get this: Rove stresses that the 2009 poll "found that Americans believe that taxes should, on average, take just 15.6% of a person's wages," as though this proves that the public is increasingly sick of high taxes. In fact, that mean response of 15.6 percent is higher than it was in 2007 (14.7 percent) and 2006 (15 percent). So the polling data that Karl Rove, Super Genius, used to make the point that Americans are increasingly fed up with taxes actually show them moving in the opposite direction!

On April 30, Rove acknowledged Obama's popularity at the 100-day mark, which he attributed in part to the fact that Obama "has passed key legislation."

Wait, isn't that "key legislation" the very stuff that just a few weeks earlier Rove predicted would doom Obama and lead to a GOP revival?

Now, I know what Rove's fan club in the news media would say to all this. Rove didn't really believe the GOP would be fine in 2006; it was his job to project confidence. He didn't really believe they'd pick up seats in 2008; he was spinning for his team. Rove doesn't really think you can assess shifts in public attitudes about taxes by looking at a single poll rather than trend lines; he's just cherry-picking data that fit his argument.

Well, OK. Maybe all that is true. Maybe Karl Rove, Super Genius, knows that the spectacularly wrong political assessments he offers in public are spectacularly wrong. Maybe he really is a savant and a Svengali and a seer. That isn't a reason to listen to Rove, that's yet another reason not to listen to Rove: He's knowingly saying things that are nonsense. The "fact" that Rove is a political mastermind doesn't make him worth listening to if what he says is intentionally wrong.

Yet the media continue to listen to Rove, even though he's wrong more often than a broken clock.

Why?

Part of it has to do with one thing Karl Rove has done very well: selling the idea of Karl Rove.

The devil's greatest trick may have been convincing the world that he didn't exist, but Rove's greatest was convincing the media that he does exist. Or rather that Karl Rove, Super Genius, exists.

That reputation among the media led reporters to attribute greater importance to Rove's pronouncements than they deserved. It made them more likely to run with Rove-approved storylines, which, of course, meant that those storylines took root in the media, reinforcing reporters' belief that Rove was master of some mysterious art of political communication.

The reality was much simpler: Reporters decided Rove was a genius, so they printed whatever he wanted them to print. Reporters then saw Rove getting whatever he wanted into the media, and that reinforced the idea that he was a genius, so they assumed his attacks on Democrats would be effective and covered them as such -- and so on. It's the closest thing to a perpetual motion machine we've seen in modern American politics.

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    • Author by nerzog (May 22, 2009 9:06 am ET)
      4  
      My theory is that the GW Bush presidency was the result of a "gentleman's wager". As the theory goes, a group of GOP bigwigs were lounging in a Country Club bar and a tipsy Rove bragged that he could take the dumbest s.o.b. in Texas and make him president.

      The rest, as they say, is history.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by friedbergboy1422 (May 22, 2009 9:37 am ET)
        1  
        Sounds familiar, isn't that the plot of "Trading Places" with Dan Akroyd and Eddie Murphy?
        Report Abuse
      • Author by dave (May 22, 2009 9:45 am ET)
          3
        Can't disagree with the theory, nerzog. But that would make Rove a super genius. And along the same lines, that same wager may have been made in Little Rock at a strip bar, over cigars and a lap dance.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by NiceguyEddie (May 22, 2009 11:54 am ET)
          2  
          Not that I disagree you on that one, Dave, but I'm SHOCKED to hear you knocking on the only fiscally responsible president we've had in almost thirty years!
          Report Abuse
          • Author by dave (May 22, 2009 3:37 pm ET)
            1 1
            Fair enough. And while I didn't hate Bill, having cigar sex with an intern in the Oval office is funny and something to tell your friends about while golfing, my taxes went up. Other than that, he was a great guy.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by roundhouse (May 22, 2009 10:58 pm ET)
              3  
              Waahhh. Your taxes went up under Clinton... and you were still a rich man. Your taxes went down under Bush... and you were still a rich man, although more people around you fell out of the middle class. Your taxes are going up under Obama... and you're still a rich man.

              Why don't you shut up about your taxes already ya big jerk?
              Report Abuse
      • Author by franky (May 23, 2009 2:15 am ET)
        1  
        Nerzog: "...Rove bragged that he could take the dumbest s.o.b. in Texas and make him president."

        I remember Rove bragging that he did came up with the idea of making Bush governor of Texas.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by friedbergboy1422 (May 22, 2009 9:46 am ET)
      1  
      This was mentioned on another thread a while back. AA said that the SC decides cases and says they aren't to be used for precedent.

      This is the challenge, AA: Find two such cases, other than Gore v. Bush that were decided without precedential value by the SC in the last 50 years. If you need more than 50 years, do that.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by barry1234 (May 22, 2009 10:26 am ET)
      1  
      The only reason the GWb ever got elected was due to his brother Jeb Bush then Governor of Florida having 57,700 Afro American voters rights scrubbed from the voters list in Florida by an outfit called DBT. He made DBT use their names and align them with similar names of felons and then had them removed from the voters list.

      The scumbag by the name of Jeb Bush also is a member of the PNAC as well Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, I Lewis Libby who all became part of the first Bush Administration. The PNAC in 1998 sent a letter to then President Bill Clinton to remove Saddam Hussein.
      Source: http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm
      List of Members of the PNAC:
      Source: http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm

      The members of the PNAC in the Bush Administration are the Neocon Chickenhawks lead by the former Ahole of a Vice President Dick Cheney who is behind creating the lies for going to War in Iraq and Dick Cheney has never served his country as he got five deferments so wouldn't have to fight in Vietnam.

      Dick Cheney and the rest of the lying scumbags from the PNAC all need to be flown to the Hague, Netherlands in Leg Schackles and Handcuffs and turned over to the International Courts to all be charged for International War Crimes for starting a War in Iraq based on lies. If found guilty and they are all sentenced to death then hang them all by the neck as they are no better than the Nazi's that were hung at the Nuremberg Trials in 1946.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by captfoster2 (May 22, 2009 11:13 am ET)
      3  
      When exactly was the last time Karl Rove was right about anything?

      I refer back to the book "Bush's Brain" and I wonder if the authors perhaps inadvertently gave way to much 'cred' to the T-Blossom?

      Of course, this book was written just before (or just after) the invasion of Iraq... but certainly before the facts started to come to light...

      Either way... That FoxNoise gives him a pedestal with which to perch his fat slimy ass upon is a testament to just how bad our media has become.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (May 22, 2009 1:08 pm ET)
        2  
        When exactly was the last time Karl Rove was right about anything?
        It was after the last time Bill Kristol or Newt Gingrich was right about something, that's for sure.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by SMTDL (May 23, 2009 11:57 am ET)
        1  
        Exactly..like most Republicans ,he hasn't been right in along time.The few that do get something right apologize to Limbaugh so quickly it has no impact!! What did Cheney ever get right? Gingrich ..maybe the biggest hypocrite of all!!
        Colin Powell and ocassionally JohnMcCain/Arlen Specter/Olympia Snow will stand up for what is right and reasonable!!! Michael Steele is beyond a joke!!!
        Report Abuse
    • Author by jmh (May 22, 2009 1:34 pm ET)
      4  
      Rove, and ilk, are still teflon-enhanced.
      Virtually nothing sticks.
      Notwithstanding having be displaced from power in the last election, there still is no effective challenge to Rove's punditry.
      If there was, he would have no public platform at all.

      How can anyone from the Bush administration criticize current policies,with a straight face, while offering absolutely no ideas, and taking absolutely no responsibility for the mess this country is in, especially after having been one of the prime architects of the mess we are in?
      Report Abuse
      • Author by nerzog (May 22, 2009 2:31 pm ET)
        4  
        They're like a drunk teenager who drives a car into the ditch, then criticizes the tow truck driver for the way he's trying to pull it out.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by steeve (May 22, 2009 5:53 pm ET)
         
      There really isn't anywhere to go with this. The media won't even think about a political strategist who's not a republican, and Rove is as smart (and as dumb) as any of the rest of them.

      When an entire party is sliding down the cliff in a huge mudslide, there's not much point in ranking them.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by smarshall1432997 (May 22, 2009 7:17 pm ET)
      1  
      Hmmm, on Hardball today Chris Matthews said he heard that the R-N-C stood for Rush, Newt and Cheney - not Republican National Committee. So, if Rove is the super genious for Republican Politics why wasn't his name used for the R? Well reading this says it all. Thanks Jamison. Great read Jamison.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by eweston8542983 (May 22, 2009 8:55 pm ET)
      1  
      I'm edging into calling it clan loyality. An organizational grouping of much popularity in the middle east. One we're trying to change into population and national loyalty over there, supposedly. For all the jaw flapping about patriotism and our (recently) cerished institutions. It seems more like loyalty to the Clan of Karl that drives them.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by reidfinlayson (May 23, 2009 12:23 am ET)
         
      Let's see what he says under oath.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by franky (May 23, 2009 2:04 am ET)
         
      JF: "But it is increasingly clear that there isn't really any "good reason" to pay attention to what Rove says. I don't say that because Rove's immoral and possibly criminal behavior was notable even in an administration defined by immoral and possibly criminal behavior..."

      I wonder if the reason might not be a fear of him, not necessarily his competency. Perhaps the journalists are scared of what pictures, videos, compromising phone conversations or emails etc. he has of them.


      JF: "...or because he advocates policies that have failed again and again."

      I don't think this is a fair rap as his rep is as an elections guy.



      JF: "But look closer. Bush (and Rove) had the benefit of running against a candidate the media absolutely loathed -- and lied about. The media loved Bush. (And why not? He gave them nicknames! Stretch! Ha!)"

      Rove's style would suggest that he may have had something to do with the media denigration of Gore.


      JF: "The country was at peace, the economy was strong, and so the public was not as concerned as they might otherwise have been about handing the country over to someone who confused the prime minister of Canada with an order of cheese fries."

      The healthy state of the union and the Palinesque candidate Rove had to work with in Bush means the Dem should have won. All to the favor of Rove.


      JF: "...had Florida not purged thousands of legal voters from its rolls; had the Supreme Court ordered a recount of the entire state rather than installing Bush in a decision so baseless the court indicated that it should not be used as precedent going forward."

      The purging sounds Rovian. Also perhaps Rove coerced that Supreme Court decision using compromising pictures, videos, phone conversations, emails etc.



      JF: "True, Republicans picked up seats in 2002, and Bush won re-election in 2004. But those victories come with the biggest, boldest asterisk you can imagine. After the worst terrorist attack in American history occurred on Bush's watch, the public rallied around him to the tune of a 90-percent approval rating. By the time Rove left Bush's side in August 2007, only a third of that support remained."

      They rallied around him because he started a war on false pretenses. Rove again? Terrible policy, but again Rove's great reputation is not as a policy guy.

      JF: "The great strategic insight of the 2004 Bush re-election campaign (unless you count "get attacked by terrorists and start an unnecessary war on false pretenses" as a political strategy) was that the president could be re-elected by appealing to the base rather than the center. But that was Matthew Dowd's realization, not Rove's."

      On the other hand, I would imagine Rove had something to do with Dowd being around in the first place. Further Rove didn't ignore the advice despite the fact he didn't personally come up with it, which is a credit to him indirectly.


      JF: "Now, I know what Rove's fan club in the news media would say to all this. Rove didn't really believe the GOP would be fine in 2006; it was his job to project confidence. He didn't really believe they'd pick up seats in 2008; he was spinning for his team. Rove doesn't really think you can assess shifts in public attitudes about taxes by looking at a single poll rather than trend lines; he's just cherry-picking data that fit his argument."

      I agree with Rove's news media fan club on this. I though also agree with Mr. Foser's point that he shouldn't be treated as a policy expert. I further think that he shouldn't be given much time as a political expert either, as he is still obviously belligerently partisan and he has skin in the game---his own freedom should be at risk (although it looks like it likely isn't unfortunately).
      Report Abuse
      • Author by steeve (May 23, 2009 9:56 am ET)
           
        I'll never buy into the notion of the media being played skillfully by somebody. It lets them off the hook. The only people who play the media are media owners.

        At some point, it must be realized that the reason the media chases after every lunatic utterance from a conservative is because the media chooses to chase after every lunatic utterance from conservatives.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by jflz201884 (May 23, 2009 10:22 am ET)
         
      I like what Glenn Greenwald says about Rove: "In a world where political journalism performs its most basic functions, media manipulators like Rove are the natural enemy of journalists."
      He's right. And it's hard to understand how some reporters and analysts remain enamored of him.
      "Political genius"? I doubt many historians will see Rove that way. He is the painter who covers his shoddy work with a fresh, glistening coat . . . the builder who lays a crumby foundation . . . the real estate hack who sells parcels in
      the flood plain.
      In a famous January 2002 speech, Rove assured the Republican National Committee that in the midterm congressional elections, candidates could go to the voters on the war on terror because they "trust the Republican Party to do a better job of protecting and strengthening America's military might and thereby protecting America." In other words, run on the coming "war" with Saddam Hussein.
      Granted that the immediate return on that strategy was considerable. Republicans made gains that fall, and Bush somehow won a second term two years later.
      "Republicans STRONG, Dems WEAK" became the frame, and Rove was credited as the brains behind the GOP's move toward 40 or so years of continuous rule. Such would be Bush and Rove's political legacy. But by Inauguration Day 2005, the voters already were suffering buyers' remorse. Bush's esteem index started plummeting, taking GOP re-election fortunes down with it.
      The Iraq occupation came to fit every criteria for quagmire. The "war," fought almost entirely on credit, put the nation perilously in debt, while an ideological foe, the Chinese, hold most of the notes. And congressional Republicans began rushing for the exits -- such is the urge to spend more time with their families. So much for the long-run value of running on the war.
      In that light, all Karl Rove is good at is postponing disaster.

      Jerry Elsea
      Report Abuse
      • Author by franky (May 23, 2009 11:44 am ET)
           
        jflz201884: ""Political genius"? I doubt many historians will see Rove that way. He is the painter who covers his shoddy work with a fresh, glistening coat . . . the builder who lays a crumby foundation . . . the real estate hack who sells parcels in
        the flood plain.
        "

        Jerry I disagree with the basis of your analysis of Rove's role in the events of the early twenty-first century. The flaw in yours' and many others' thinking, as I see it, is that you seem to conflate politics with governance. Rove made his reputation as a guy who helped get Republicans elected, not deciding actual policy. The mistake in this regard was to run the Bush administration with politics first in mind, which Rove was employed to help do. But that was Bush's mistake, not Rove's for the most part although Rove could have declined to participate in the government and just gone on to concentrate on other state and congressional elections.

        I agree Rove has been an integral part of a disastrous Republican rule. But the blame should not be heaped so much on his shoulders. To do so is to let off the hook the principal actors in the Bush administration.

        I wonder how many Democrats are still deluding themselves that they are smarter than the Republicans politically as a practical matter. The best chance the Dems have to close the brains gap is to first recognize that they are behind in this regard and look for new and better people with different approaches. It wasn't always this way and it doesn't have to stay this way.

        You may ask what about the success of Obama? I would say that he is an exceptionally skilled politician who took advantage of an exceptionally favorable political situation.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by SMTDL (May 23, 2009 12:03 pm ET)
             
          You are giving Rove way too much election credit other than maybe for making it closer than it should have been.It was obvious to any objective entity that more people did vote for Gore and many Fla votes intended for Gore were lost due to the infamous butterfly ballot not to mention some documented voter suppression.The credit should go to the Supreme Court..and the RNC for its usual shenanigans to suppress Democratic votes...so much for counting every vote!!!
          Report Abuse
          • Author by franky (May 23, 2009 12:16 pm ET)
               
            "You are giving Rove way too much election credit other than maybe for making it closer than it should have been."

            But "making it closer than it should have been" is huge. You first have to get into the store in order to heist the jewels.
            Report Abuse
        • Author by alexanderbuttny5669 (May 23, 2009 5:21 pm ET)
             
          Franky
          You propose "You may ask what about the success of Obama? I would say that he is an exceptionally skilled politician who took advantage of an exceptionally favorable political situation."
          I heartily disagree. You have to admit Axelrod and Obama's team of organizers and fund raisers were brilliant. Their strategy was totally new and bold, concentrating on individuals and asking for small donations.

          Daring to tackle red states early on and challenging conventional wisdom and "expert" opinion on their so called unassailable conservative loyalty every step of his campaign.

          The email/technology focus was raised to a whole new and unprecedented level. They beat the Republicans at their own game.

          And forgoing the usual special interest, big business contributions and insider wooing for the most part was pretty unusual.

          They crafted their message and demeanor and stuck to it the whole damn way. They are still IMO staying pretty true to positions and ideas they espoused 2 years ago.

          Further the remarkable lack of confrontational sensationalist posing so common in especially presidential campaigns. Their unwillingness to attack every minor mis-step or gaffe of opponents whether Hilary or McCain even when it got heated was inspirational to me. I was truly impressed by what I saw as a real reluctance on Obama's part to get down and dirty before, during, & after the primaries. My take was that it was only after supporters frantically urged Obams camp to not pull a John Kerry swift boat non-response that they diverged from the high road & began swinging back. But still far more graciously than Hilary or McCain whether he was down or up in polling. (Joe the plumber, Ayers, socialist, Muslim ad nauseum). Obama and his crew rarely engaged in any mudslinging or strayed from presenting arguments that were not based on political positions and voting records.

          (As an aside it made me hypothesize that there may be a significant portion of this country that frankly have a bully mindset. If you don't engage in an eye for an eye you're weak or stupid. Certainly unfit to lead the country for some unknown reason. I hated to see it personally but I suspect it helped put him over the top with a critical % of right leaning voters. The kind who could observe the criminally dirty tactics of Rove and see no irony in cheering on his win at all costs tactics without wondering what it means to then have that same infection as an elected official)

          Rove by the way did guide Bush to the Texas governors office and the coverage of that race masterminded by Rove was one of the reasons I was so concerned about a Dubbya presidency. I thought then and still do that Bush was a well meaning dunce who abdicated the responsibility of the job to folks he honestly trusted but who were and are real criminals. people actually incapable of understanding ethics, morals and conflict of interest. Bush took more vacation days then any president in recent history. Delegated everything with what appears to be little oversight. His "Decidin" seems to have been largely "decidin" who to pass the ball off to so he could clear brush at the ranch. Plus Bush was the governor when guess what other financial crisis blew up? The S&Ls. and where were the bulk of them headquartered due to the forgiving business climate? Texas. The man has never successfully helmed anything except maybe the Rangers.
          I do agree with your other comments. Sorry about the rant LOL
          Best
          Alex
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    • Author by twseattle (May 23, 2009 12:25 pm ET)
         
      Are some of you trying to let Rove off the hook, saying he's just the election guy?I don't think history will come out that way at all. The great genius of these oilmen's rape of our economy is how they used the war in Iraq as a distraction from markets being manipulated to cause an unprecedented increase they got for thier commodity. This was plotted before Bush was elected, 9/11 just gave them a great way to 'leverage' mid-east paranoia. Creating instability in the oil markets made the oil business more profitable than ever. That was always their goal and despite destroying the republican party, they succeeded! Now Cheney is willing to keep stirring the 'national security' pot so nobody pays attention to the price of oil creeping up.
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      • Author by franky (May 23, 2009 12:40 pm ET)
           
        Are some of you trying to let Rove off the hook, saying he's just the election guy? I don't think history will come out that way at all.

        I for one was not saying he was "just an elections guy". He was both. My point was that it would be like hiring Babe Ruth to play center field and then denigrating the Bambino's batting skill because he couldn't get to many fly balls out there.

        And remember Rove was a hired hand, not Bush and not Cheney.
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      • Author by franky (May 23, 2009 12:44 pm ET)
           
        Wait a minute! Why do YOU want to let Bush of the hook? I certainly wasn't.
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        • Author by franky (May 23, 2009 12:48 pm ET)
             
          Revised: Wait a minute! Why do YOU want to let BUSH off of the hook (on a relative basis)?
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          • Author by twseattle (May 23, 2009 1:11 pm ET)
               
            Nice try, but Bush was just the mouthpiece figurehead. Is he less of a criminal? No but these aren't stupid political operators. Bush will show to be insulated from a lot of the real nasty things, just like Reagan before him (Iran/Contra). The goal of the Bushies was to make more money for oil companies and that they did. And the current economic situation might be bad for me and you, but not them.

            The point is that Rove was not just the hired election guy, He was a central planner in all of this. To suggest his influence ended when the campaigning did is letting him off the hook with a back massage.
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            • Author by franky (May 23, 2009 1:36 pm ET)
                 
              I would compare this political situation to organized crime. When one of a Al Capone's enforcers torture-killed a restaurateur who refused to buy HIS booze, as a message to the others, he was the prime actor even though he may have been a thousand miles away at the time. Capone, like Bush, had the power. And likely Capone didn't tell his man HOW to do it either---that was the enforcer's job, the skill for which he was hired (like Rove). And Big Al maybe didn't even have to tell the enforcer to do it at all, it was the enforcer's job to know when and what to do in these matters while Capone took care of higher level things and kept his hands clean.

              And I did not say his influence ended after the election! I'm trying to more accurately apportion blame for the whole mess.
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              • Author by twseattle (May 23, 2009 2:20 pm ET)
                   
                Exactly, and just like any gang,secrecy is the key. So keep the loudmouths hollering about the distractions while time passes and the bosses get away with it. When they went after Clarke, it wasn't because he was wrong, it was because he broke the code of silence. I just think it all had way more to do with lining pockets with oil money than national security. The oil comes from overseas so it's not even americans getting the richest. Yet the critics get called unpatriotic.

                And all the rednecks think they are diong their part guarding their cropdusting planes all night so osama can't get it.
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