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Eric Boehlert
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O'Reilly and Fox News will have more right-wing vigilantism to explain

June 09, 2009 8:42 am ET

If Fox News is going to continue to traffic in hateful rhetoric, then folks at Fox News, as well as their apologists in the GOP Noise Machine, are going to have to come up with better talking points to spin away the atmosphere of vigilantism fomented by their words and actions.

They need a better line of defense because the one they trotted out in the wake of the right-wing assassination of abortion provider Dr. George Tiller was wholly unconvincing.

It was just as feeble as the defense Fox News' Glenn Beck tried to employ in May to distance himself from the accused right-wing cop killer in Pittsburgh who seemed to mimic Beck's language about how President Obama was coming to take away everyone's guns.

The Fox News crew is going to need better talking points because I fear the violence -- the bouts of right-wing domestic terrorism -- are likely to continue. As long as Fox News and the Noise Machine refuse to back off the incendiary language that they're actively mainstreaming, the political violence, visible just months into Obama's historic first term, may have only begun.

Note that during a jailhouse interview, Tiller's suspected killer claimed that similar assassination plots against abortion providers are already being planned.

And please note what you did not hear from virtually anyone on the far right who addressed the Tiller story last week. Yes, they tried furiously to distance Bill O'Reilly from the controversy or suggest there was nothing problematic with the "baby killer" rhetoric he used. But what you did not hear was anyone condemn, or even take issue with, O'Reilly's on-air crusade.

Why the silence? Because militia-style vigilante rhetoric has become a cornerstone of the conservative media movement in America, and it's now proudly championed by Fox News on a nearly hourly basis.

The fact is, I couldn't find a single prominent voice within the GOP Noise Machine who even hinted that O'Reilly's relentless attacks on Tiller were in any way off the mark or, in light of the vigilante Kansas church killing, needed to be reconsidered, that they should have been dialed down. And that's why the ugliness has only begun.

The unconvincing right-wing defense in the wake of the Tiller assassination last week was twofold, with the second layer even thinner than the first. The first was that when conservatives were hounding and demonizing Tiller for years, they were merely debating the issue of abortion. And surely nobody in America opposes a healthy debate, right? Nobody opposes "sharp political disagreement," as Michelle Malkin sugarcoated the Tiller attack, right?

Second, Noise Machine leaders claimed that liberal commentators do exactly what O'Reilly and Beck have been accused of: using violent political hate language that puts people's lives in danger. That claim has been made over and over, yet conservatives can't actually produce any proof -- can't find any hateful liberal quotes -- to buttress the claim.

That's because both talking points are complete fabrications.

First, the idea that O'Reilly and company simply debated Tiller's work is laughable. O'Reilly's never been interested in any kind of back-and-forth about the abortion issue. He just rants and demonizes the other side. And in the case of Tiller, O'Reilly portrayed him as a lawless executioner. As Mary Alice Carr, vice president of communications for NARAL Pro-Choice New York, wrote in a recent op-ed for The Washington Post, "O'Reilly knew that people wanted Tiller dead, and he knew full well that many of those people were avid viewers of his show. Still, he fanned the flames."

And besides, if O'Reilly had merely been debating abortion -- if he had said nothing about Tiller that was regrettable or out of line -- why did O'Reilly at least twice last week falsely claim that he'd never called the doctor a "baby killer"?

Still, according to Brent Bozell's NewsBusters, O'Reilly had simply "spoke[n] critically of Tiller's abortionist practices" and merely "used harsh words to describe Tiller."

Decide for yourself. Since FNC defenders often refuse to reprint O'Reilly's quotes, here's an unvarnished look at what he said about Tiller; here's what he said before an anti-abortion zealot assassinated Tiller and then claimed his actions were justified:

  • "In the state of Kansas, there is a doctor, George Tiller, who will execute babies for $5,000."
  • "For $5,000, 'Tiller the Baby Killer' -- as some call him -- will perform a late-term abortion for just about any reason."
  • "Tiller has killed thousands, thousands of late-term fetuses without explanation."
  • "No question, Dr. Tiller has blood on his hands."
  • " 'Tiller the Baby Killer' out in Kansas, acquitted, acquitted today of murdering babies."
  • "This guy will kill your baby for $5,000, any reason. Any reason."
  • "If we allow Dr. George Tiller and his acolytes to continue, we can no longer pass judgment on any behavior by anybody."
  • "If we allow this, America will no longer be a noble nation."

As for the Noise Machine's fallback position, it's that liberal commentators do exactly what O'Reilly and Beck have been accused of: trafficking in hateful rhetoric that endangers innocent people.

Making the charge at NewsBusters, Noel Sheppard claimed:

[A]s [Keith] Olbermann and his ilk on MSNBC and throughout the liberal blogosphere routinely referred to George W. Bush and Dick Cheney as murderers, would they have been responsible if someone had assassinated either of these former White House members?

Sheppard was sure that Olbermann had called Bush and Cheney murderers. He was sure Olbermann's references to the POTUS and VP were "equally provocative" as O'Reilly's references to Tiller.

Except, of course, Sheppard failed to produce a single Olbermann quote that even comes close to the seething, unhinged hate rants that O'Reilly unfurled for years against Tiller. Meaning, there is no comparison between what O'Reilly said about Tiller and what Olbermann has said about Bush and Cheney. Yet this entire right-wing defense hinges on the idea that the language was identical. That there's a moral equivalence.

Desperate to move the spotlight away from O'Reilly's irresponsible actions, conservatives last week tried to claim that liberal pundits might be responsible for the killing of a military recruiter in Arkansas who was gunned down by a Muslim convert trying to send a political message. Why the liberal pundits? Because they had created a dangerous anti-military atmosphere.

Beck made that very claim on his radio show [emphasis added]:

BECK: Well, let me ask you this. I had to really search the news long and hard to find out about the two recruiters -- the two soldiers that had been killed by the Muslim convert, that were gunned down in Arkansas. I had to really look hard for that. Is anybody asking is Keith Olbermann responsible for the death of those two soldiers? Keith Olbermann has railed against recruiters. Keith Olbermann has railed against the baby killers that our U.S. soldiers are. He's railed against this war. MSNBC was right all over the story about how our troops are torturing and killing innocents. Has anybody asked if he's responsible?

Slight problem. Neither Beck nor anyone else on the right last week could find any hateful, violent anti-recruiter attacks launched by liberal media personalities. (Let alone baby-killing quotes.) Why can't they find the rhetoric? Because nobody on the left with any sort of national platform has targeted military recruiters in recent years. If they had, Malkin would have included the damning quotes in her column. (Either that, or she needs to hire a new researcher.)

Have there been, over the years, occasional efforts on the left to ban military recruiters from campuses and other environments? There certainly have. Can conservatives point to any kind of wholesale hate rhetoric or vigilante-style calls to action by mainstream liberal pundits and commentators designed to dehumanize and demonize military recruiters? Of course they cannot. (And sorry, Code Pink demonstrations don't qualify as mainstream media commentators.) Because if conservatives could have found those kinds of irresponsible attacks, they would have thrown them back in everyone's faces last week.

But apparently, they don't exist.

As far as I know, there are no gotcha, hateful, get-the-recruiter quotes to hang around the necks of Keith Olbermann or Rachel Maddow or anyone else on the left for the simple reason that high-profile media liberals haven't led dangerous crusades to target military recruiters the way O'Reilly led a dangerous crusade against Tiller. And the way Beck has against Obama.

As a rule, media liberals don't traffic in irresponsible, militia-style rhetoric. But agitators like O'Reilly and Beck do, and now conservatives can't make that fact go away.

That's why the Fox News crew and its eager apologists are going to have to come up with a better line of defense. Because as long as Fox News peddles its incendiary vigilante rhetoric, the right-wing violence in America will continue, and Fox News is going to have to answer for it.

Expand All Expand 1st Level Collapse All Add Comment
    • Author by essbird (June 09, 2009 9:21 am ET)
      4  
      Fox is one of the most prominent and persistent, but there's other stuff out there that's pretty close to mainstream that's even scarier. Check out the comments to this article about Obama admitting CIA involvement in the Iran coup of 1953. The echoes of "traitor", "Idiot", "racist buffoon" and more make me think it won't be long before one or a few of these wingnuts decides to act for the "good of the country."
      http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=CNG.32cde4b38d55ae6af28266bb31a7221e.851&show_article=1
      Report Abuse
      • Author by historygeek001 (June 10, 2009 3:25 pm ET)
           
        I read some of those comments. That's chilling.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by carlileb5935 (June 10, 2009 6:13 pm ET)
             
          Yeah, and it's like they really care and hurt for Iran in the first place!
          Report Abuse
          • Author by shoes89 (June 11, 2009 4:20 pm ET)
               
            Oops. Now we know why Boehlert was forced to edit his column. ("The headline and first paragraph of this column have been changed since it was originally posted.")

            AS it turns out, evidence now shows that the shooter at the Holocaust museum was NOT A CONSERVATIVEYour text to link here...!

            Kinda shreds Boehlert's claim, doesn't it? LOL!
            Report Abuse
            • Author by magnolialover (June 11, 2009 7:59 pm ET)
                 
              He wasn't?

              Of course he was.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by magnolialover (June 11, 2009 8:01 pm ET)
                   
                Oh, and Front Page? Really?

                Guess what? This guy was a far right loon. He was not some sort of fantasy leftist.
                Report Abuse
    • Author by jpeagle21 (June 09, 2009 9:23 am ET)
      5 37
      So, explain to me why it is inaccurate to call a man who kills babies a "baby killer."

      If he will perform an abortion for $5,000, why is it wrong to say so?

      Oh, and by the way, here is a piece of an article/commentary from Keith Olberman for your viewing pleasure. You're correct, I can't find ANY hateful rhetoric in these words! I didn't have to look hard for this.

      "I accuse you, Mr. Bush, of lying this country into war.

      I accuse you of fabricating in the minds of your own people, a false implied link between Saddam Hussein and 9/11.

      I accuse you of firing the generals who told you that the plans for Iraq were disastrously insufficient.

      I accuse you of causing in Iraq the needless deaths of 3,586 of our brothers and sons, and sisters and daughters, and friends and neighbors.

      I accuse you of subverting the Constitution, not in some misguided but sincerely-motivated struggle to combat terrorists, but to stifle dissent.

      I accuse you of fomenting fear among your own people, of creating the very terror you claim to have fought.

      I accuse you of exploiting that unreasoning fear, the natural fear of your own people who just want to live their lives in peace, as a political tool to slander your critics and libel your opponents.

      I accuse you of handing part of this Republic over to a Vice President who is without conscience, and letting him run roughshod over it."

      Here is the link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19588942/page/2/

      Report Abuse
      • Author by mingus (June 09, 2009 9:57 am ET)
        18 1
        jpeagle, I'm wondering where in this is the hateful language - all I see is an accusation of lying or of subverting your constitution - I don't think you can argue that this is hate speech. It just doesn't compare with this from the above article "This guy will kill your baby for $5,000, any reason. Any reason." This was simply a lie, ignoring the legal constraints the doctor was actually under. I do not understand how you Americans willingly allow an ex-Australian media magnate to subvert your democracy with the kind of filth that spews out of Fox News. I say this because I'm Australian, and deeply ashamed that Murdoch is behind the monstrosity that is Fox.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by carlileb5935 (June 10, 2009 6:16 pm ET)
          1  
          Also, Olbermann didn't do this all the time, and never latched in to a pre-existing, militaristic hate campaign against Bush. If there had been one, KO would have toned down the rhetoric for sure-- he would have been forced to by the NBC lawyers.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by chrisjones49 (June 10, 2009 11:05 pm ET)
          2  
          "mingus" From one Australian to another, I am also deeply ashamed that Murdoch is behind the monstrosity, Fox.
          Report Abuse
      • Author by puppienrainbows (June 09, 2009 10:05 am ET)
        4 10
        Olbermann and MMFA are identical formats. View and critique successful programs in hopes of being as successful one day. The only problem with this approach is that 100% negativity never prevails.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (June 09, 2009 9:28 pm ET)
          8 2
          I think pointing out lies where they exist is not negative at all, it's a positive thing to shine light upon the right-wing lie machine. They tend to scatter like roaches, which is definitely not negative.

          The lies of O'Reilly and Fox are where the 100% negativity you project upon Olbermann really live. I'm not surprised at your comments, coming from someone who thinks a web site and a television program are "identical formats."
          Report Abuse
          • Author by MissDee (June 10, 2009 9:59 am ET)
              8
            An ddo you find that pointing out the lies, smears, mistruths and haterd of hte left so positive when a light shines on them? MMfA and the likes of you here don't ever seem to be anything but hostile and defensive in the extreme if any criticism, let alone the truth is pointed out on your own.

            Hypocrisy, thy name is media matters.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by davemccarthymusic9410 (June 10, 2009 7:46 pm ET)
                 
              by all means, dee, point it out!

              ...didn't think so.
              Report Abuse
            • Author by LuvLuLu (June 10, 2009 9:35 pm ET)
                 
              Yeah, that's bullcrap and you know it.

              I have read comments from most of the main lefties who post here saying that they don't like liars of any persuasion. On top of that, it does NOT defend a liar to say that others are lying too.

              So, we don't like you, MissDee, because you lie. We posters are not hostile and defensive when actual valid criticism gets tossed our way. Your strawman argument is that what you and other rightwing trolls toss out is valid criticism!
              Report Abuse
            • Author by solon (June 11, 2009 12:08 pm ET)
              1  
              You wouldnt know the truth if it kicked down your door sat at your table and ate your cornflakes. Meanwhile you DEFINE hypocrisy and just arent bright enough to get the concept.
              Report Abuse
        • Author by brantl (June 11, 2009 3:35 pm ET)
             
          Sorry, no. They're viewing and critiquing liars. Successful has nothing to do with it.
          Report Abuse
      • Author by purpleraider53 (June 09, 2009 10:06 am ET)
        8  
        Well, eagles, I am guessing you are a George Bush guy. You are certainly entitled to that ... and your Olbermann quotes about the former president and VP seem familiar.

        Words are important. How they are delivered and who they are delivered to are just as critical. O'Reilly is popular for one reason - he stirs up the masses with populist rhetoric. I will agree that even O'Reilly didn't want Dr. Tiller killed. But he did want him stopped. Turns out of his devotees just picked a drastic method of doing so.

        This is the difference. The right has many more options and more people issuing these sort of speeches on a daily basis. They are proud of that and are unlikely to slow up in the near future. As a result, the potential is there for more trouble.

        Olbermann has been very tough on Bush and Cheney but they are no longer key players. They are yesterday's news O'Reilly gives out addresses of any current person he doesn't like. He encourages his followers to "do something" about it RIGHT NOW.

        When one does, he washes his hands and says that isn't what he had in mind.

        Too bad. Too late.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by kjholsinger (June 09, 2009 10:15 am ET)
        9  
        Let me take a whack at this...

        So, explain to me why it is inaccurate to call a man who kills babies a "baby killer."

        Inaccurate? No. Inflammatory? Yes. From the above piece:

        First, the idea that O'Reilly and company simply debated Tiller's work is laughable. O'Reilly's never been interested in any kind of back-and-forth about the abortion issue. He just rants and demonizes the other side.

        Mr. O'Reilly wasn't inviting calm, policy debates with his kind of rhetoric. He was on a crusade. That's the difference.


        Next item:

        Oh, and by the way, here is a piece of an article/commentary from Keith Olberman for your viewing pleasure. You're correct, I can't find ANY hateful rhetoric in these words!

        Even though I'm a fan of Mr. Olbermann's, I won't pretend for one minute that he went after the Bush Administration with cool detachment. The difference, however, is that Mr. Olbermann's "solution" to what to do about the Bush Problem...if you want to call it that...was using the law (impeachment, criminal investigations, etc.). No "if I could get my hands on him" stuff.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (June 09, 2009 9:32 pm ET)
          7  
          Inaccurate? No.
          Inaccurate, yes. Dr Tiller killed no babies. The Kansas law made sure of that, and the fact that he was acquitted when partisan prosecutors tried to accuse him of that very lie stands as refutation of jpeagle21's claim.

          Words have meanings. The fact that jpeagle21's words do not match the meaning he is trying to contort them into is very telling.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by fairliberal (June 09, 2009 11:54 pm ET)
              7
            Your portrayal of the DA as partisan shows you do not know the case. The original charges were brought by a AG named Kline. The prosecutors that actually went to trail with the case were appointed by Sebelius after AG Morrison , a democrat resigned after a sex scandal. Tiller was a friend and political contributor to Sebelius. So it was Sebelius's hand picked prosecutor that actually tried the case. Surprise surprise, he lost the case.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (June 10, 2009 8:33 am ET)
              3  
              Your portrayal of the DA as partisan shows you do not know the case.
              Wrong again, FL. The DA who brought the charges was a partisan hack. The DA who tried the case was a different person. That's why in my post I said the prosecutors "tried to accuse him." That is what an indictment is, and the prosecutor who brought the indictment was the same partisan hack I referenced earlier.

              So it was Sebelius's hand picked prosecutor that actually tried the case. Surprise surprise, he lost the case.
              You have made the same accusation several times in the other O'Reilly thread. You had no proof then, either. Why do you think that merely making the accusation several times without an ounce of corroboration somehow makes your claims truthful?
              Report Abuse
              • Author by fairliberal (June 10, 2009 9:39 am ET)
                1 3
                No it is you who are wrong , the 19 charges were filed by Paul Morrison , a democrat who had defeated Kline the 2006 election. Morrison later resigned after a sex scandal. Sebelius then appointed Steve Six to replace him . He then oversaw the prosecution, payback time. The investigation then came to a grinding halt and the state only called 1 witness at the trial, Tiller's crony in the abortion scheme.

                And all you have done is told me I am wrong, you have not provided any proof. Show your proof of your claim that the charges were brought by a partisan prosecuter, you made the ststement.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by eweston8542983 (June 10, 2009 10:44 am ET)
                  1  
                  And your proof that AG Six operated only from partisan motives. The rule of law meant nothing to him?
                  I'd be contacting a Fedral authority's with proof, if I had it. As opposed to defaming someone semi-anonymously on a web site thread.
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by LuvLuLu (June 10, 2009 9:45 pm ET)
                     
                  You should take well-reasoned advice next time you're told that you're outclassed and should stop digging your hole even deeper.

                  http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/jan/09010904.html

                  Former Kansas Attorney General Phill Kline is a central figure in two separate abortion scandal cases: one involving 19 charges against George Tiller, and another involving 107 charges against the Kansas division of Planned Parenthood.
                  Last month, Planned Parenthood attorney Pedro Irigonegaray subpoenaed Kline as part of a separate case, pursuing allegations that Kline improperly handled medical records. Tiller’s attorneys filed a motion the next day asking for a Sedgwick County judge to grant them all documents related to the Kline subpoena. Tiller’s defense also asked for copies of documents from Kline’s Planned Parenthood abortion investigations that Kline provided to the Attorney General’s office last week on the order of the Kansas Supreme Court.

                  http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/giroux/090331

                  When Phill Kline was Kansas Attorney General (2002-2006), the Kansas Supreme Court held up his investigation for 2 years virtually, running out the statute of limitations on many of the cases. The abortion industry understood clearly that Kline was onto the crimes inside of George Tiller's clinic and immediately set out to defeat him in order to be sure that a conviction would never occur. They did, in fact, defeat Kline in November of 2006, but before leaving office Kline charged George Tiller with 30 charges of late-term abortions.

                  Okay, so you asked for proof that charges were brought by Kline? Any rookie lawyer knows to not ask for an answer to any question if you don't already know the answer you'll get. Clearly you ain't the sharpest tack in the box!
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by OmegaHunter (June 10, 2009 10:38 pm ET)
                     
                  From Wikipedia:
                  "In 2005, Morrison switched from the Republican to the Democratic Party and announced he would challenge Republican Phill Kline in 2006 for Attorney General."

                  You're right. There's no way a life-long Republican that switched parties for pure political gain could have possibly opposed abortion. Six was just stuck with this case because Morrison decided to have an affair with a staffer.
                  Report Abuse
      • Author by latanza (June 09, 2009 10:24 am ET)
        1  
        Because he told the truth?
        Report Abuse
      • Author by Victor Colorado (June 09, 2009 11:16 am ET)
        14 2
        Explain to me why O'Reilly has been too big a wimp to call Tiller a "baby killer" since his murder. Explain to me why O'Reilly refuses to use that term anymore?

        As for Bush, he committed war crimes and Olbermann is spot on to call him on it and accuse him of it. Have you know patriotism?

        Tiller committed no crime, yet O'Reilly campaigns steadfast and dances on his grave against the man's legal actions that broke O'Reilly's Law. O'Reilly's God trumps the rule of law, which Tiller never broke. O'Reilly's campaign lead to Tiller's assassination.

        O'Reilly knows he played a part in it - THIS IS WHY O'REILLY NO LONGER CALLS TILLER A 'BABY KILLER'.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by seeryer (June 09, 2009 11:25 am ET)
        10  
        "So, explain to me why it is inaccurate to call a man who kills babies a "baby killer.""

        In America, what you call a baby killer is called by law an abortion provider. To call someone a killer is to imply they murder. An abortion is not murder in America. It may be to you but you are not our laws.

        KO:
        "I accuse you of causing in Iraq the needless deaths of 3,586 of our brothers and sons, and sisters and daughters, and friends and neighbors."

        It was Bush's choice to send them to Iraq preemptively and it was the woman's choice to seek an abortion. If Tiller didn't perform it, plans would have been made for someone else to perform it. IF George W Bush hadn't invaded Iraq who would have?
        Report Abuse
        • Author by patpathos (June 09, 2009 1:41 pm ET)
          2 16
          Just because something is LAWFUL does not automatically make it moral or ethical. Furthermore, it should not be lawful for a woman to be able to kill her own child or rather use the medical laws as murder for hire. The unborn child is a human being, not a kidney, or excess fat to be lipo suctioned out. They merely don't have the maturity or ability to speak for themselves a condition not totally unlike Saddam's victims in Iraq and other countries. You can call them 'abortion providers' all day long and it will never change the fact that these doctors and mothers as well are indeed murderers. I don't expect to change your beliefs on the subjects however our own laws contradict themselves as you can see in many murders of pregnant women in which case the perpetrator of these crimes are charged not only with the murder of the woman but the unborn child as well.
          So you tell me? Is the unborn child a human or not. Our lawmakers certainly don't seem to be able to make up their minds.
          btw Our honorable brothers and sisters who have fallen in the line of duty chose to become the heros of our nation. They died with honor and dignity and it is a great loss for our country while at the same time being a great source of pride that has been shown by these fallen Americans. Murdered children however are a shameful commentary in our nation's history.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by pearlene_scott1602 (June 09, 2009 3:28 pm ET)
            13  
            You can call them 'abortion providers' all day long and it will never change the fact that these doctors and mothers as well are indeed murderers.


            And yet, you folks NEVER want the woman charged with murder, just the physician that the woman CHOOSES to see. Why not? If abortion is truly murder why don't you folks demand that the woman be charged with murder as well? Why aren't you folks out there bombing, shooting and murdering women who've chosen to terminate their pregnancy?

            Because your cause to end abortions would come to a dead end. Because common sense thinking people would not believe that women controlling what happens to their bodies is murder.

            Report Abuse
            • Author by Brabantio (June 09, 2009 3:58 pm ET)
              8  
              And why don't we have police investigations for miscarriages? That would surely be necessary to make sure that no murder had actually occurred.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by vjbinct (June 10, 2009 11:50 am ET)
                3  
                Speaking of miscarriages, at least 30 per cent of all pregnancies do end in miscarriages, most very early and unnoticed. Does this make God the great abortion provider?
                Report Abuse
              • Author by 3rdParty (June 11, 2009 10:38 pm ET)
                   
                A women usually sees a Dr. after a miscarriage. If the Dr. suspects foul play then you better believe they that they contact the authorities.
                Report Abuse
            • Author by swmayhew (June 10, 2009 11:16 am ET)
                 
              Why not call the MAN the murderer? It's clear that the 'pro-life' movement is solely one that is keen on punishing women for controlling their sexual lives. When I tried to hand out adoption forms to a group from the terrorist organization 'Operation Rescue' the protectors of 'babies' beat me up. So telling.
              Does the right KNOW that conception requires sperm? (Like the treatment of prostitution offenses - the women are jailed and the men are invisible). Women go to health clinics alone.
              Let's let this death make a difference. Dr Tiller was killed to take rights away from women who are solely responsible for reproduction in America. Let's take that right away from the men who create the 'babies' to begin with - Operation Rescue could terrorize the men responsible - that would reduce the abortion rate significantly.
              Report Abuse
          • Author by Brabantio (June 09, 2009 3:34 pm ET)
            9  
            The rights of the fetus rely on the determinations of the woman and of society. This is why we have a cutoff point. Before the end of the second trimester, there is no determination by the woman. After that point, they have committed themselves to carry the child to term. This is why abortion is illegal after that point, with certain exceptions. Society takes on the role of protecting the fetus.

            So for legal purposes, such as the murder of a pregnant woman, the intent of the woman makes a difference. If a woman was three weeks pregnant and murdered, that's not double homicide. If she was eight months pregnant, her intent to give birth is clear. The law is consistent in this concept.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by jpeagle21 (June 09, 2009 4:52 pm ET)
                12
              "This is why abortion is illegal after that point, with certain exceptions. Society takes on the role of protecting the fetus."

              If I am not mistaken, the lawfulness of the abortion time is up to the State. In Kansas there is no time-line that says when abortions cannot be done. They are only illegal when the fetus is determined to be viable (can live outside the womb). Guess who makes that determination.......the doctor. The fact that they have to have another doctor present in case the baby comes out still alive should tell you how accurate that determination is.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by pags2 (June 09, 2009 5:08 pm ET)
                5  
                The common law provided for two different distinct crimes, murder and abortion. In order to determine which, the common law test was whether the fetus was viable and able to live outside the womb. As medical technology advanced so did the fetus' viability. But in the 70's the Supreme Court held that most,if not all, violated the woman's rights to the extent it took away all her rights. The court stated there is a state interest in the pregnancy which increased based on the trimester. Each state is free to legislate reasonable laws concerning abortion, but the effect of these laws cannot ban all abortions. Late term abortions are heavily regulated by state laws and this is permissible. The grounds for abortions are pretty much the same all through the pregnancy, except that the state's right to protect the fetus is greater at the end.

                Abortion did not become a religious issue until the Supreme Court ruling permitting abortions. There is nothing historical to suggest that the religious point that life begins at conception. Religions were content with the common law as it was applied before the ruling. Since the court ruling we have religions weighing in on the "sanctity of life" which state that life in the womb starts as soon as the egg is fertilized and therefor, any abortion should be treated as murder.
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              • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (June 09, 2009 9:52 pm ET)
                6  
                Guess who makes that determination.......the doctor.
                You are wrong yet again. One would think that at some point you would be embarrassed by your ignorance. Kansas law states that the doctor's diagnosis must be confirmed by another independent doctor. Yout lying implication that the doctor determines the procedure based upon monetary compensation is not supported by the law, nor by common sense.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by fairliberal (June 10, 2009 12:03 am ET)
                    4
                  Kansas law states that the doctor's diagnosis must be confirmed by another independent doctor.

                  That was the heart of the case, the doctor that Tiller had confirming the diagnosis had a financial relationship with Tiller and his clinic. Tiller was her cash cow in fact. .http://www.lifenews.com/state4003.html
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (June 10, 2009 8:37 am ET)
                    1  
                    And yet the jury, who heard all the evidence, of which you heard none, acquitted Dr Tiller. Somehow you keep forgetting to mention that.

                    It doesn't matter what the heart of the case was, the conclusion determined by the court was that the "heart of the case" was not accurate. Therefore, your claim of a "financial relationship" has no legal standing, and therefore, every time you bring it up, you are trying to argue using yet another proven lie.
                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by LuvLuLu (June 10, 2009 9:50 pm ET)
                       
                    Actually, that's another lie from fairliberal - who would have thought that FL would lie again?

                    The consulting doctor was independent. She misspoke in an earlier deposition.

                    But what I want to know again is why are you such a traitorous American? After all, a jury determined that the consulting physician was believable and acquitted Dr Tiller of all charges. Why are you so unpatriotic that you would trash our nation's judicial system and the findings of that court and that jury? Huh?
                    Report Abuse
            • Author by 3rdParty (June 11, 2009 11:02 pm ET)
                 
              You are wrong on the law. It depends on the state.
              Here's a disgusting story that is recent. This fetus was 7months and the murder is only being charged with the death of the mother.
              37 states have a “fetal homicide” law. 24 of these state laws define a fetus as a person and a separate homicide victim. This gives the fetus legal rights distinct from the woman who was attacked.
              Report Abuse
          • Author by Linus (June 09, 2009 3:35 pm ET)
            5  
            You say:
            The unborn child is a human being.... They merely don't have the maturity or ability to speak for themselves.... I don't expect to change your beliefs [emphasis added] on the subjects however our own laws contradict themselves.... Is the unborn child a human or not. Our lawmakers certainly don't seem to be able to make up their minds.

            I don't believe that the laws are as contradictory as you might think. If you compare a state laws on abortion with those on fetal murder, you'll find a great deal of consistency (based on medical fact) within each state though the laws may vary from state to state. As for that variance, I think you inadvertently answered the why. Belief! When human life begins is a matter of belief, religious belief. No one can say with medical/scientific certainty when human life begins — at fertilization? at conception (i.e., successful implantation in the wall of the uterus)? when the fetus becomes viable outside the womb? on exiting the womb? at first breath? There simply is no medical or scientific certainty as to when human life begins. According to the Bible, the arbiter of belief for many believers, man did not become "a living soul" until after he had been formed of the dust, and after G_d breathed the "breath of life" into his nostrils. (Genesis 2:7.) So, when does human life begin? I won't ask you to tell me, because it's a question of religious belief and I do not necessarily share your religious beliefs. I won't impose my beliefs on you; so, please, don't to try to impose your beliefs on me. We may, however, share a state of residence and it's in the laws of that state that we will find at least some basic level of agreement.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by swmayhew (June 10, 2009 11:19 am ET)
              4  
              You are NOT a human being until birth - having this debate with uneducated people is a waste of time.
              Fetus means fetus - get your head out of the book written by people who thought the earth was flat and pick up a ninth grade biology book.
              You people are destroying America and the majority of us have had enough.
              Report Abuse
            • Author by 3rdParty (June 11, 2009 11:33 pm ET)
                 
              It's not a religious belief but it is a scientific belief for many.
              I believe that when the seed is planted and growth starts then it is a human. It's not a monkey or a fish or a bunch of slimey gooey stuff; It is the science that is a human. If a women is murdered when she is two weeks pregnant, regardless of the laws; The autopsy never reads that she had some unidentifiable goopey growth in her stomach. It says that she was pregnant. That's because it was an identifiable human inside of her.
              Report Abuse
          • Author by LuvLuLu (June 09, 2009 4:02 pm ET)
            9  
            Abortion doesn't kill a child or a baby.

            An unborn baby is not a human being. There's no such thing as an unborn baby. There are fetuses and there are babies.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by craig98607271 (June 09, 2009 8:47 pm ET)
              1 8
              i am pro chice but you are just playing with words. fetus means small child in latin. i do procedures on babies that are a pound or less. they are human beings. it gets tricky when a unborn child is at a age where they can survive outside the womb. leagly, moraly and ethicaly. and yes there is such a thing called a unborn baby.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (June 09, 2009 9:56 pm ET)
                7 1
                fetus means small child in latin
                Iggy, Iggy, Iggy. Latin is not the official language of the United States. Your comment is just as relevant as the fact that fromage means cheese in French.

                And no, there is no such thing legally as an unborn baby, and all your posturing to the contrary does not make it so.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by oscar the grouch (June 10, 2009 12:08 am ET)
                    8
                  So we had better change "fetus" to "blob of cells" from now on?
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by fairliberal (June 10, 2009 12:14 am ET)
                    5
                  Funny, the house passed a bill in 2001 protecting the unborn child. .http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3827/is_200105/ai_n8936455/
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (June 10, 2009 8:40 am ET)
                    5  
                    Didn't they also pass a "clean air act" that poisons the atmosphere? And didn't they also pass a "save the forests" initiative that promoted clear-cutting? What a law claims it does and what it actually does are two vastly different things, especially when passed by a GOP-controlled congress.

                    Once again, you call a horse's tail a leg and claim you are the owner of a five-legged horse.
                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by swmayhew (June 10, 2009 11:22 am ET)
                       
                    How does that effect the men who add equally to the conception?
                    Report Abuse
                • Author by Eric_Arthur_Blair (June 10, 2009 2:43 am ET)
                  2 1
                  Yes and at one time, the English word "man" meant a person of inteterminate gender, i.e., it could be male or female, whence we get words like "chairman" (that's also where the "man" in "woman" comes from - it used to be "wifmonn", that is a "wife-person"). The fact that we now use words like "chairperson" means one thing - language changes over time. To argue that a fetus has personhood because of its etymology is the same as arguing that a butterfly is somehow associated with dairy products.
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by 3rdParty (June 11, 2009 11:40 pm ET)
                    1
                  If you use a Latin word in America then it's still Latin.

                  Or why don't we just call a fetus a burrito.
                  Report Abuse
              • Author by swmayhew (June 10, 2009 11:21 am ET)
                1  
                Fetus is a legal term whatever the Latin... What are you telling the men involved with the conception?
                Report Abuse
                • Author by 3rdParty (June 12, 2009 12:18 am ET)
                     
                  Latin is a language not a type of term.
                  Here's a made in the USA definition of FETUS for you:
                  http://mw1.m-w.com/dictionary/fetus

                  I tell the men the same as the women. What else would one say?
                  Report Abuse
            • Author by fairliberal (June 10, 2009 12:08 am ET)
                5
              Here is a site that says otherwise, a non-partisan site...http://pregnancy.about.com/cs/genderpredictions/a/aa120896.htm ..I'll take their word for it, you even stated yesterday that someone who is partisan cannot be counted on for a valid opinion, since you are partisan on the issue your opinion is meaningless by your own standards.
              Report Abuse
            • Author by swmayhew (June 10, 2009 11:19 am ET)
                 
              THANK YOU
              Report Abuse
            • Author by shoes89 (June 11, 2009 4:14 pm ET)
              1  
              "An unborn baby is not a human being."

              Really? What kind of being is it, then? A salamander? An alligator? A panda?

              We are all 100% human from the moment of conception. (Even ex-NOW president and ardent pro-choicer Patricia Ireland admitted just a few days ago that life begins at conception. And she added, (I'm paraphrasing) "And I think there's no doubt about that.")

              "Fetus" "Baby" etc. These are just different terms for humans at different stages of development.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by Brabantio (June 11, 2009 11:57 pm ET)
                   
                It's a potential human being. The label is highly evocative and suggests that they have rights because they're human beings just like children or adults. It's not its own entity in scientific terms nor in terms of societal rights and recognition.
                Report Abuse
              • Author by 3rdParty (June 12, 2009 12:25 am ET)
                   
                I spit water all over my screen when I read, "A panda?"

                Although, I'm gonna have to add Sea Monkey to the list.
                Report Abuse
            • Author by 3rdParty (June 11, 2009 11:36 pm ET)
                 
              I take it that you have never seen abortion photos or videos.
              Report Abuse
          • Author by darkmass (June 09, 2009 5:09 pm ET)
            4 1
            "So you tell me? Is the unborn child a human or not." - patpathos

            Pat, I suggest you turn to your sister anti-choicers, the ones who have *gotten* abortions (they are probably all around you), and ask them.
            Report Abuse
          • Author by seeryer (June 09, 2009 5:26 pm ET)
            4 1
            "Just because something is LAWFUL does not automatically make it moral or ethical. Furthermore, it should not be lawful for a woman to be able to kill her own child or rather use the medical laws as murder for hire."

            We are not arguing what you "think" should or should not be lawful. We are talking about what is lawful. What Tiller practiced was lawful in Witchita even if you don't "think" so.

            "You can call them 'abortion providers' all day long and it will never change the fact that these doctors and mothers as well are indeed murderers."

            I like your thought process. I just wish more conservatives, especially those elected in DC, had the you know what to say it. I think it would be a great platform to run on, "If you had an abortion you should be arrested for murder, if you are pro choice, you should be charged with accessory after the fact".

            "So you tell me? Is the unborn child a human or not. Our lawmakers certainly don't seem to be able to make up their minds."

            I celebrate birthdays, not conception days. You know the day you were conceived or the day you were born? A fetus is human but I think a woman has the choice to give birth. I prefer abortions be rare and safe. The killing of Tilelr made abortions much less safe and nothing has made them rare as they need to be. However, Democratic programs limit the number of unwanted pregnancies. Check up the stats. Less abortions in America in any year under Clinton than under Bush I.


            Report Abuse
          • Author by clairendipity (June 09, 2009 5:35 pm ET)
            2  
            Above and beyond my disagreement with you on abortion issues (as I don't expect to change your mind either), I just want to say that your claim that people in Iraq do not have the ability or the maturity to speak for themselves is incredibly insulting to the Iraqi people.
            Report Abuse
          • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (June 09, 2009 9:37 pm ET)
            4  
            Wow. patpathos must be correct, the entire post was in boldface.

            Shouting does not confer truth upon a series of lies. And shamelessly calling aborted fetuses "murdered children" does not make them so. That's called an "appeal to emotion," and it is one of the right wing's most used logical fallacies. The fact that it is a lie also puts it high in the pantheon of wingnut tactics.

            Here's a question for you. How many legs does a horse have, if you call a tail a leg? Four. Calling a tail a leg does not make it one.
            Report Abuse
          • Author by anyfreedomleft (June 11, 2009 9:16 am ET)
            1  
            "Just because something is LAWFUL does not automatically make it moral or ethical. "

            hmm ... like waterboarding ... Bush gets away with it because the fanatics say "It's not torture" or "It was legal" ...
            Report Abuse
          • Author by solon (June 11, 2009 12:12 pm ET)
               
            No they arent murderes just because you are brainwashed enough to regurgitate idiocy like that embarassment of a post
            Report Abuse
        • Author by 3rdParty (June 11, 2009 10:34 pm ET)
             
          First of all; I feel that Olbermann, Maddow as well as the entire Fox gang(with the possible exception of Shep Smith) are all liars and have all been guilty of not checking and/or mischaracterizing the facts of many news stories. Some more than others.
          This Sheep Bleepn abortion law was the result of lobbyists with money manipulating the system like always. Part of the loop hole in this filthy law that you support, which includes partial birth abortion, says that as long as the head is still in the mother then it is not murder. That's a rediculous and heartless justification that was created by filthy lawyers. Also it states that there must be a secondary diagnosis by another Dr. Therefore Tiller gets his second sign off from people such as his abortion buddy Warren Hern.
          If Tiller was only performing the small amounts of Late term abortions that would otherwise result in the mother's death, then how was he making over $1million per year? If this isn't taking the life of a human then why do the mothers get counceling? And why does Tiller offer a memorial photo session with the dead baby? Which has been proven by the photos of Tiller's victim, Baby Tess.
          Tiller would induce labor then suck the feet out of the womb. Then Tiller would pierce a hole in the babie's skull; Crush it and suck out the brain.
          Within the first six weeks of a pregnancy, the fetus(developing HUMAN) has a heartbeep and is already sucking its thumb and playing with its toes. And you think a written law is going to make me believe that a fetus isn't alive.
          Sincerely,
          Pro Life/ Pro Choice for the voiceless fetus
          Report Abuse
      • Author by harley (June 09, 2009 11:37 am ET)
        7  
        So, explain to me why it is inaccurate to call a man who kills babies a "baby killer."


        Abortion is legal, killing babies is not legal. Fact.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by oscar the grouch (June 10, 2009 12:10 am ET)
          1 3
          And that is why Dr. Tiller was free to practice his trade and Scott Peterson is in prison convicted of a double murder.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (June 10, 2009 8:41 am ET)
            1  
            Straw fetus, and now false equivalence, and non sequitur. FL better start worrying in the logical fallacies race, Oscar, you're gaining on him.
            Report Abuse
      • Author by captfoster2 (June 09, 2009 11:38 am ET)
        11 1
        jpeagle21,

        1) There is no comparison to Olbermann's words to that of the Fox-Noise crew!

        Why? you ask... because Olbermann's words are backed by something your right-wing addled brain does not seem to comprehend... FACTS!!

        I'm curious... what exactly is your point anyways? That Olbermann is trying to incite the American people to rise up and finally pay attention?

        2) While it is tempting to say that Boehlert and MMfA are crazy for trying to link Fox as culpable to the domestic terrorist act of murdering Dr. Tiller... just watching the full context video of the Fox-Noise crew is enough to prove that.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by jpeagle21 (June 09, 2009 1:22 pm ET)
            12
          Let's just say, hypothetically, that someone tried to assassinate Bush based on the false opinion that he is a war criminal because Bush (in Olbermann's words) "caused in Iraq the needless deaths of 3,586 of our brothers and sons, and sisters and daughters, and friends and neighbors." What if someone had a brother that was headed to Iraq and they decided they would prevent it by getting rid of the President who (in Olbermann's words) "lied the country into war." Could we not point to Olbermann and say he is inciting this violence as Boehlert claims O'Reilly is doing?

          BTW, Bush didn't CAUSE the death of anything. The terrorists who shot, blew up, cut off the heads of, and tortured our brave soldiers did the killing. You want to make comparisons between this and abortion? Bush didn't physically kill anyone, Tillery did. That being said, I don't condone what happened to Tillery. The people who killed Tillery are just as bas as the terrorists who killed our soldiers.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by NG_Officer (June 09, 2009 1:37 pm ET)
            7 1
            1. Hypothetically, Bush would not ahe prevented the hypothetical brother from being sent to Iraq.
            2. If Bush hadn't gotten us into a war under false prentenses, then "3,586 of our brothers and sons, and sisters and daughters, and friends and neighbors" would nto have died in said war.

            See the logic?
            Report Abuse
            • Author by NG_Officer (June 09, 2009 1:39 pm ET)
              5  
              1. Hypothetically, killing Bush would not have prevented the hypothetical brother from being sent to Iraq.
              2. If Bush hadn't gotten us into a war under false pretenses, then "3,586 of our brothers and sons, and sisters and daughters, and friends and neighbors" would not have died in said war.

              See the logic?


              I hate not having spell check

              Report Abuse
            • Author by highliter (June 11, 2009 4:52 pm ET)
                 
              And if President Clinton had tae Bin Laden when he had the chance none of this may have happened. And by the way I have yet to see any proof that Bush lied so he could go to war. The mere fact that no WMD were found does not constitute a lie.
              Report Abuse
          • Author by Victor Colorado (June 09, 2009 1:40 pm ET)
            7 1
            Could we not point to Olbermann and say he is inciting this violence as Boehlert claims O'Reilly is doing?


            Olbermann did not use violent speech. O'Reilly did. Repeatedly.

            Again I ask, why do you think O'Reilly has dropped caller Tiller a "baby killer" since he was assassinated?
            Report Abuse
            • Author by Victor Colorado (June 09, 2009 2:51 pm ET)
              7 1
              Wow, thumbs down. No answer. OK then, I'll answer my own question:

              Bill O'Reilly's and Fox News' lawyers told him to stop calling Dr. Tiller a "baby killer". They have OK'ed his use of "destroyed fetuses" but told Bill explicitly to stop it with the "baby killer" talk. Bill O'Reilly answers to a higher, lawyerly calling. God bless him.
              Report Abuse
            • Author by craig98607271 (June 10, 2009 10:50 am ET)
                 
              of course he stopped calling him that. he was just murdered. oreilly's a bit of a blowhard sometimes, but he isn't stupid.
              Report Abuse
          • Author by pearlene_scott1602 (June 09, 2009 2:57 pm ET)
            7  
            How can anyone compare a "hypothetical" Bush killing, with the real life, shooting, bombing and murdering of abortion providers is beyond me!!!

            This is NOT a hypothetical issue, it's real!! People who are doing their freaking job are being killed because some nuts doesn't agree with what they do!!

            You're entitled to YOUR opinion on abortion, it's just YOUR opinion, period!!!

            The folks who hate America don't sound any different than you anti-choice folks.

            The terrorists (anti-choice folks) hate America (abortions) and they don't like (the fact that abortion is legal) our way of life. The terrorists (anti-choice folks) think that their way of living (anti-choice) is the only way and they'll do anything to make that happen (bomb clinics, shot and murder doctors and nurses).

            And for the LAST d*mn time, Dr. Tiller DID NOT KILL ANYONE, women went to him by CHOICE!!!!!
            Report Abuse
            • Author by jpeagle21 (June 09, 2009 4:38 pm ET)
              1 8
              "And for the LAST d*mn time, Dr. Tiller DID NOT KILL ANYONE, women went to him by CHOICE!!!!!"

              Wow, a little angry are we? Guess what.....you can stand behind the "choice" word all you want, but this doctor killed those babies, although he didn't deserve to be murdered because of it. You stand behind the "choice" to kill your own babies, yet you stand against the oil company's "choice" to drill whever they want for oil, or the car manufacturer's "choice" to make cars with fuel efficiency below 39 mpg, or the voter's "choice" to decide whether gay marriage is legal in their State. That's right.....you only fight for your freedoms when they fit into your little vision of the perfect society.

              In a late term abortion, you start with a fully formed baby and when it is over, the baby is dead. You can use the word fetus if you want to make yourself sleep better at night, but it is a baby. You folks like to talk about facts......those are the facts. The woman in the scenario is just as much of a low-life as the doctor is and is just as guilty when it is all said and done and the baby is lying there lifeless.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by Victor Colorado (June 09, 2009 4:45 pm ET)
                4  
                You can use the word fetus if you want to make yourself sleep better at night, but it is a baby.


                Why do you suppose Bill O'Reilly now refrains from calling a fetus a "baby"?
                Report Abuse
              • Author by dbeden4153 (June 09, 2009 4:55 pm ET)
                5  
                jpeagle,
                Tell you what. I invite you to take a look at Andrew Sullivan's blog over at the Atlantic. Read the "It's so personal" posts that he has put up from readers writing in about late-term abortions.

                http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/

                And here's some facts for you. Late-term abortion is less than 1% of all abortions performed in the U.S. 99% of THOSE are from women who fully intended to bring the child to term. I mean, we're talking in the 7th or 8th month of pregnancy. These women wanted these babies, but an ultrasound may have told them that the child will have a short painful life, and there's nothing they can do about it. Many other examples exist, Just read Sullivan's blog. What would you do? Bring the child to term, so that it can live the 10 minutes outside the womb that the doctor predicted? Or end the pregnancy early and avoid a myriad of complications and possibly save your own life (if you're the mother)?

                These aren't easy questions, and breaking the "facts" down to "The woman in the scenario is just as much of a low-life as the doctor is and is just as guilty when it is all said and done and the baby is lying there lifeless" is disingenuous, wrong, and cheapens the debate.
                Report Abuse
              • Author by pearlene_scott1602 (June 09, 2009 6:33 pm ET)
                4  
                but this doctor killed those babies, although he didn't deserve to be murdered because of it.

                You keep forgetting that the doctor's are not standing on some street corner, begging women to visit their clinics! Women CHOOSE to visit doctors like Tiller.

                I'll skip your oil company/cars comparison, they don't deserve a response.

                I sincerely hope you NEVER find yourself hoping and praying for a child that you find out, way too late, will never live. That you can accept and understand if your wife or girlfriend decides it's to heartbreaking, painful and cruel to continue a pregnancy that has no chance of life. I hope, even though I think you wrong, you NEVER have to walk a mile in the shoes of the many families who have faced such a scenario.

                Having a late-term abortions is a painful decision for anyone to make and your opinions should not matter.
                Report Abuse
              • Author by solon (June 11, 2009 12:20 pm ET)
                   
                YOU can use the term baby because you have been programmed to do so like one of Pavlovs dogs but it is STILL a fetus
                Report Abuse
                • Author by 3rdParty (June 12, 2009 2:18 am ET)
                     
                  YOU can call it a baby a fetus or an alien for all I care; It's still living until the Dr. KILLS it.
                  Report Abuse
              • Author by highliter (June 11, 2009 4:57 pm ET)
                   
                I also don’t remember getting to vote on if abortion should be legal or not. Oh that’s right an activist court took that away from the American people by somehow saying that it is protected under the constitution. Not real sure where that is in the constitution I have read it a few timesI must be missing that part.
                Report Abuse
            • Author by bluhawk7398 (June 09, 2009 8:54 pm ET)
              1 7
              Wow! Put that one in quotes!!! So now all pro-lifers are terrorists?? And they hate America?? Abortion is a way of life? Holy smokes you need to calm down and make rational points...
              Report Abuse
              • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (June 09, 2009 10:03 pm ET)
                3  
                Holy smokes you need to calm down and understand rational points...
                Report Abuse
              • Author by pearlene_scott1602 (June 10, 2009 3:38 pm ET)
                2  
                Wow! Put that one in quotes!!! So now all pro-lifers are terrorists?? And they hate America?? Abortion is a way of life? Holy smokes you need to calm down and make rational points...


                Ah, you need it spelled out in simple terms for you to understand?

                The definition of terrorism: the calculated use of violence (or the threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ...

                Radical, right wing extremist anti choice people: Bombing, shooting and murdering physicians for providing a legal service, abortion, that they hate.

                Radical Islamic extremists: bombing, shooting and flying planes into building because of hatred of America.

                Is that simple enough for you?

                Not all anti-choice people are terrorist, but you cannot deny that the ones who are radical extremists, operate no different than the folks who hate America.

                Abortion is LEGAL and whether you like it or not, and terrorism is NOT the way to stop it!!
                Report Abuse
            • Author by TheThief672 (June 11, 2009 1:03 am ET)
              1  
              "You know you have created God in your own image
              when he hates the same people you do"

              - George Bernard Shaw
              Report Abuse
          • Author by mikehuck1976 (June 09, 2009 3:49 pm ET)
            2 2
            Why wouldn't you want Tiller killed if you believe he was murdering innocent "babies"? You would not kill to stop someone whom you believe is murdering innocent "babies"?
            Report Abuse
            • Author by pearlene_scott1602 (June 09, 2009 4:10 pm ET)
              7  
              Why wouldn't you want Tiller killed if you believe he was murdering innocent "babies"? You would not kill to stop someone whom you believe is murdering innocent "babies"?


              Because IF you're suppose to be such a God fearing Christian who is sooo concerned about Dr. Tiller's is killing babies, you'd know that ONE of the commandments says you shall not kill!!!! and THAT means YOU TOO!!!

              And in case that doesn't work for you:

              Romans 12:19 Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord.




              Report Abuse
              • Author by 3rdParty (June 12, 2009 2:24 am ET)
                   
                Where did he say he was "such a god fearing christian"?

                Thou shall not kill is supposed to apply to everyone and not with an exception for women and doctors.
                Report Abuse
          • Author by worrierking (June 09, 2009 4:15 pm ET)
            3  
            The comparisons have been made by the likes of Braindead Beck, not anyone on the left.
            Report Abuse
          • Author by mingus (June 10, 2009 3:43 am ET)
            3  
            I fail to see what this smoke screen has to do with Dr Tiller's assassinaton by a home-grown terrorist, but let me reply to your points:
            1. You completely ignore the deaths of thousands of Iraqi civilians.
            2. You ignore the fact that the Bush administration took the US into a war without actually declaring a war (I seem to remember a number of German Government officials were actually tried and hanged because of similar actions).
            3. Ummm - your soldiers weren't in Iraq for a party, mate, they were there to kill people and overthrow a government (admittedly a corrupt and useless one). Also, torture was enacted at Abu Ghraib by soldiers who had been given the go ahead through a chain of command that started with Bush and Cheney. At least one murder happened there, and there was certainly plenty of torture. These are war crimes, and ex-President Bush, VP Cheney et al are guilty of them.
            Report Abuse
      • Author by wookie (June 09, 2009 11:40 am ET)
        9  
        >>If he will perform an abortion for $5,000, why is it wrong to say so?

        Because, uh, it tells us nothing about the medical condition of the mother or fetus. And a court ruled that O'Reilly's accusations were wrong.

        >>Oh, and by the way, here is a piece of an article/commentary from Keith Olberman for your viewing pleasure. You're correct, I can't find ANY hateful rhetoric in these words! I didn't have to look hard for this.

        Until you come up with a quote about "recruiter the killer" or an example of Olbermann sending his stalkerazzi to tell the audience where to find him all you have is the usual pathetic diversion.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by LuvLuLu (June 09, 2009 4:06 pm ET)
          5  
          There is no evidence that Dr Tiller performed an abortion for any woman who could come up with the $5000. That's a baseless smear from O'Reilly.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by 3rdParty (June 12, 2009 2:30 am ET)
               
            Yes there is evidence...I can't stand O'Reilly and Fox in general but I do have to point out that there have been numerous patients of tiller who have spoken to the media and complained about his practices. There are also court documents as well as the ex- Tiller patient and mother of Baby Tess, whom confirmed that she paid $5000.
            Report Abuse
      • Author by solon (June 09, 2009 11:42 am ET)
        9  
        How about because performing abortions isnt killing babies no matter WHAT you have been brainwashed and programmed into regurgitating on command?

        No hateful rhetoric I can see. All true. Not calling Bush a killer or a murderer. Did he accuse Bush of KILLING those men or being responsible for their deaths. You CAN see the difference right? Your post was weak. It didnt even come close to doing what you thought you were doing showing a false equivalence between Beck who is both a moron and mentally unstable and Olberman who isnt.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by jpeagle21 (June 09, 2009 1:25 pm ET)
            10
          "Did he accuse Bush of KILLING those men or being responsible for their deaths."

          Yes......yes he did.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by NG_Officer (June 09, 2009 1:33 pm ET)
            6 1
            Have you got a quote or are you just pulling that out of your a$$?
            Report Abuse
            • Author by GalaHGL (June 09, 2009 2:24 pm ET)
                6
              If his earlier bold quote is correct, then Olberman said "I accuse you of causing in Iraq the death of...."

              Insofar as we are talking about Media Matters, yes he did pull it from an ass.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by NG_Officer (June 09, 2009 2:53 pm ET)
                6  
                Causing a death by invading a country under false pretenses is not the same as "KILLING those men".
                Nice try, though.

                Again, where did Olberman accuse Bush of "KILLING those men?"
                Report Abuse
                • Author by GalaHGL (June 10, 2009 7:03 am ET)
                    4
                  Ok Ok Ok. "I accuse you of causing the death of..." is different than "I accuse you of killing..." Just like, as stated elsewhere in these comments, Hitler didnt kill the jews, he just caused their death.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by LuvLuLu (June 10, 2009 9:59 pm ET)
                    1  
                    Hitler was responsible for the deaths of many, but he didn't kill anyone. Bush was responsible for killing many, but he didn't kill anyone.

                    O'Reilly accused Dr Tiller of killing babies!

                    It's hard to understand how you can't understand this.
                    Report Abuse
              • Author by eddiebear2 (June 09, 2009 5:30 pm ET)
                1  
                Well, MMFA is located in DuPont Circle
                Report Abuse
          • Author by solon (June 11, 2009 12:16 pm ET)
               
            Wow that was embarassingly dumb. Yes he did say Bush was responsible for their deaths no he did NOT say Bush killed them. If you dont get the difference then you are low hanging fruit I will just let the sillyness of your statement sit there and speak for itself rather than pick on the mentally challenged
            Report Abuse
      • Author by NiceguyEddie (June 09, 2009 11:57 am ET)
        3  
        To answer your first three questions - NOTHING, as long as your don;t later claim to "just be reporting" or "engagin in a healthy debate." Oh... except that SOME of those point are in fact false: "for any reason." for example. This would actually be illegal, under current law, but the court found otherwise.

        To answer your ?'s aboout Olbermann...? Those are all TRUE. What's more they were said about a PUBLIC FIGURE. Dr. Tiller was NOT a public figure. That makes a big difference. The Media is SUPPOSED to call out the PRESIDENT. They are NOT suppooed to encorage vendetta's against PRIVATE CITIZENS.

        If you can't tell the diffference, you're either an idiot or a child. This should not have to be spelled out to an educated adult.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by caveman (June 09, 2009 12:53 pm ET)
        4 1
        1. Fetuses are not babies. Repeat after me. FETUSES ARE NOT BABIES!

        If, for example, a pregnant woman says she has a baby, you would probably answer, "Oh, you're going to have two!" It would never occur to you that she hasn't given birth to any children and was referring to what's in her womb, because that's just not what "baby" means in English.

        2. Accusing somebody in a position of high responsibility and power of doing a lot of wrong and destructive things is not hate rhetoric. Not one thing in Olbermann's screed says anything PERSONAL about Bush, nor does it call names. It accuses Bush of misusing his power. Since when do people have a right to exercise enormous power and then not be criticized for that exercise?
        Report Abuse
        • Author by fairliberal (June 09, 2009 2:49 pm ET)
          2 9
          Fetuses are babies, unborn babies. The law does protect unborn babies , but exempts abortion. When a pregnant woman points out to her husband or partner that she feels kicking does she say, honey feel my stomach, the fetus is kicking. Nope .

          Not to long ago Bobby Cutts was charged with the murder of the baby his girlfriend was carrying and there are many states that have similar laws.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by LuvLuLu (June 09, 2009 4:09 pm ET)
            5 1
            Fetuses are not babies, nor are they unborn babies.

            Abortion is a legal medical procedure wherein a fetus is removed from a woman's body, so it's not killing a baby to have an abortion.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by rhoiberg2209 (June 09, 2009 4:57 pm ET)
              2 7
              I seem to recall that Scott Lee Peterson was charged with a double homicide. How is that possible if a fetus is not human? Hmmmmmm?
              Report Abuse
              • Author by LuvLuLu (June 09, 2009 7:22 pm ET)
                3  
                It's because they changed a law to cover viable fetuses.

                That change in the law doesn't change that a fetus isn't the same as a baby.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by fairliberal (June 10, 2009 12:46 am ET)
                    5
                  Funny, they call ir an unborn child here ..California adopted a law in 1970 allowing prosecutors to charge criminals with two crimes when they kill or injure an unborn child in the course of attacking a pregnant woman. Some 33 states have similar laws, and most states, unlike California, apply the law throughout pregnancy.

                  .http://www.lifenews.com/state1636.html
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by GalaHGL (June 10, 2009 7:43 am ET)
                      4
                    I like you fairliberal. Are you really a liberal?
                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by Brabantio (June 10, 2009 7:44 am ET)
                    2  
                    Again, it's about the intent of the woman. Just because an assailant can't take away a pregnancy that is wanted (or assumed to be) doesn't mean that a woman can't terminate an unwanted pregnancy at an earlier stage.

                    The fact that a woman says "the baby is kicking" only shows subjectivity. She sees it as a baby because she has an attachment to it and plans on giving birth. Objectively, it's a fetus.
                    Report Abuse
            • Author by jpeagle21 (June 09, 2009 5:48 pm ET)
                8
              I hope holding that viewpoint helps you sleep better at night. Take a look at a "fetus" after a late term abortion and tell me it is not a baby.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by LuvLuLu (June 09, 2009 7:26 pm ET)
                3  
                I never suggested that late term fetuses don't look like babies.

                That doesn't change the fact that while the fetus is inside the woman's body, it's a fetus. It's not a baby until it is born.
                Report Abuse
              • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (June 09, 2009 10:08 pm ET)
                5  
                Another appeal to emotion from the logic-free FL.
                Report Abuse
      • Author by Col. Harlan Sanders (June 09, 2009 1:53 pm ET)
        3 2
        So, explain to me why it is inaccurate to call a man who kills babies a "baby killer."

        It's not.Nobody said it was.Thanks for showing your confusion in the first line of your post,that allows sane people to ship the rest, really saves some time.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by jpeagle21 (June 09, 2009 3:32 pm ET)
            9
          So you agree that a man who kills babies (in this case during abortions) is a baby killer. Thanks for that.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by Victor Colorado (June 09, 2009 3:56 pm ET)
            3  
            Why do you suppose Bill O'Reilly now only refers to fetuses as "fetuses". He dropped the "baby" talk after Tiller was murdered. Why do you think that is?
            Report Abuse
          • Author by Col. Harlan Sanders (June 09, 2009 4:38 pm ET)
            3  
            So you agree that a man who kills babies (in this case during abortions) is a baby killer

            I'm not sure where you're seeing agreement, JP. I've never heard of anybody simultaneously performing abortions and killing babies. Sounds like a real multi-tasker.

            If you can find me any credible account of a person aborting a fetus and murdering an infant at the same time, I'll take you off the crazy list.
            Report Abuse
      • Author by Limit Corp. Ownership (June 09, 2009 5:14 pm ET)
        3  
        JPeagle...

        The examples you gave for Olbermann are not hate rhetoric.

        Hate rhetoric from Olbermann would be something like this: "I accuse you, Mr. Bush, of lying this country into war and personally slaughtering thousands of Americans and hundreds of thousands of Iraqi's in order to line your own pockets and the pockets of Dick Cheney. You slaughtered our troops for your own gain."

        Of course, Olbermann never said anything close to this.

        There is a difference between extremely inflammatory rhetoric and strong criticism.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by richrdh (June 09, 2009 10:43 pm ET)
           
        Comparing the language used about Tiller to language used about the President of the US is not an accurate comparison.

        I believe there is a major difference between what was said about POTUS and the physician. The physician was a private doctor, working, dealing with confidential medical matters, he was not an elected official making policy.

        Report Abuse
      • Author by maxeepr946 (June 10, 2009 9:22 am ET)
        1  
        Thank you, jpeagle21, for refreshing our memories. The implied analogy, however, between Fox's attack on Dr. Tiller and Olberman's indictment of the Bush administration, is without merit, if for no other reason than what Tiller was doing was legal. And then there's the obvious contrast between the right wing (Fox) appeal to emotion and Olberman's measured rationality, between mischaracterization and truth.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by jpeagle21 (June 10, 2009 11:48 pm ET)
             
          And everything Bush did was legal. So, what's your point other than to prove mine?
          Report Abuse
      • Author by swmayhew (June 10, 2009 11:03 am ET)
        2  
        'So, explain to me why it is inaccurate to call a man who kills babies a "baby killer."'

        I'll explain (it must be hard to get along with just a 3rd grade education).

        Fetuses are fetuses - that is both the legal and biological term. You are undoubtedly a man so this issue is really not your concern unless you have prevented an abortion by adopting an unwanted child - who at that point would actually BE a baby. Of course you may be gay which presents other concerns. Abortion is legal.

        Keith's quotes are famous for hyperbole (exaggeration) - this list - unlike your buddies' at Faux News does not foment violence which leads to murder. You missed the boat on this one.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by brantl (June 10, 2009 12:01 pm ET)
           
        Please tell me what part of what Olbermann said was factually deficient, would you? Because what he has said has been proved to be true, by reporters who checked it out. That's where Olbermann got it in the first place.
        And sorry, dopey. A fetus, that can't live on it's own, isn't a baby. It isn't. By our laws, it isn't. And O'Lielly said this guy would do this for any reason at all. That's a lie. Not a matter of interpretation, A LIE. By and large, he did abortions for people that had heartbreakingly terrible things wrong with their feti, and did work that only three people in the country were willing to do, and he did it out of the goodness of his heart, and you're a moron. Get your head out of your butt, and actually research Dr. Stiller. Then, shoot off your mouth.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by butlerj29 (June 10, 2009 2:08 pm ET)
           
        OK, where did Olbermann can Bush a "murderer"? Where did he call our soldiers "baby killers"? "Tiller the baby killer" is inflammatory, and if you don't recognize the difference..? Either you are playing dumb, or.... Olbermann's quotes, I think, are brilliant, and correct. Deal with it.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by historygeek001 (June 10, 2009 3:35 pm ET)
        2  
        JP -

        First, he never killed a baby. He was performing abortions. You're lying when you say otherwise.

        Second, there is a big difference between the hateful language used by Fox and what you posted from Olbermann. Olbermann accused Bush and co. of lying and subverting the Constitution. In case you've forgotten, look up the Patriot Act, remember Bush's "Free Speech Zones," how he said that the U.S. didn't torture, the lies that lead us into war in Iraq, the lies about Valerie Plame and how they revealed her as a CIA operative, and habeas corpus laws (just to start).

        O'Reilly, etc., routinely claimed that Tiller "murdered" babies at the whim of the mother. They were lying. They knew it then and you know it now.

        Your post shows exactly how weak your claims to the contrary really are; you just proved Boehlert's point.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by Sandytab (June 12, 2009 8:24 am ET)
           
        Explain to me why a woman who could pay a couple hundred dollars for an abortion early in a pregnancy would carry it to late term THEN just decide to pay 5 grand?...Are you for real?
        O`Reilly caused the death of this man, period..
        Report Abuse
    • Author by terrapin53 (June 09, 2009 9:59 am ET)
      9 4
      There is a lot of "negativity" from the left on conservatives and conservative policies and rhetoric. I am not gonna go find the quotes either, but I see it from Olbermann on occassion. What I don't see from Olbermann that I do see from O'Reilly is the hate and the continuous bashing and name calling. I agree with the major premise of this article; there are crackpots out there and when they hear these non stop attacks on Obama on how he is a fascist, a commie, a muslim, unamerican, marxist, ruingin the country, some lost soul is going to to try to make a name for himself and take our President out. Since the murder of Tiller I have watched Billo and he has yet to accept the fact that what Tiller was doing was legal, whether Billo likes that or not, the abortions Tiller conducted were LEGAL. A jury acquitted him and that screwed up O'Reilly's talking points. Now he says people are hding behind the law over this subject of knocking Tiller and last night he went on another tirade on this subject. One word for O'Reilly and all of Fox News......pathetic.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by latanza (June 09, 2009 10:28 am ET)
          5
        I dig the Conservatives. They should just sell their political position and reasoning and not suggest that they got it right and everyonelse has it wrong.. Conservatism is the middle ground of Dems and Reps and actually they agree with both parties to some extent. Focus on that and insert the moderate view and culture concerns of the different sides that you oppose and you will be heard loud and clear. I AM an A 1 Dem! Good luck and Godspeed to the Cons because they do have valid arguments. We can see now that Censorship may have been a legitimate concern.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by latanza (June 09, 2009 10:23 am ET)
      1 2
      You are so right on- Really this is more serious than a style of news this is a position against perrogative and diversity in the form of news and they send suppressive and oppressive coverages for everything that isn't a white American male.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by GalaHGL (June 09, 2009 11:58 am ET)
      1 9
      This is all irrelevant. The people who murdered Dr. Tiller and the Army recruiters commited murder. domestic terrorists from Timothy McViegh to this ass who murdered the Pennsylvania policemen are lunatics. They are murderers and should be locked away forever. (I don't like the death penalty) To say that these murders were caused by a media celebrity is ridiculous on the order of saying that Looney Tunes cause violence in children. Or Grand Theft Auto causes people to steal cars and kill cops. Or that Jody Foster caused Reagan to be shot. These murderers and all like them have no sense of right and wrong and they don't give a damn about justice. Most of them are just trying to get attention. If you're going to lame anyone, blame the people who actually killed people. And maybe their parents.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by snoopy (June 09, 2009 1:05 pm ET)
        5 3
        Then let's issue an apology to Hitler for WW2, he never killed anybody. All he did was talk on a radio like O'Reilly...
        Report Abuse
        • Author by GalaHGL (June 09, 2009 1:25 pm ET)
          2 7
          Oh please, Hitler directly ordered the death of millions of innocent people. If you can find evidence of any right wing commentator doing that, then please, by all means, have him or her arrested.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by snoopy (June 09, 2009 1:36 pm ET)
            10 1
            You've been given several examples, you just don't want to recognize the power of propoganda when it comes from the right.

            [http://allhatnocattle.net/6809shef.gif]
            Report Abuse
            • Author by NG_Officer (June 09, 2009 1:41 pm ET)
              3  
              Snoopy does it again.

              You always find the greatest graphics
              Report Abuse
            • Author by GalaHGL (June 09, 2009 1:48 pm ET)
              2 14
              As I said, if O'reilly told his veiwers to kill Tiller then have him arrested. It is illegal to threaten bodily harm on some one. O'reilly's rants are no worse than ACORN giving tours of AIG execs homes. Thank God nothing came of that. Propaganda doesn't effect any body with a little better than average common sense. There are lunatics out there. And they are going to strike no matter who or what is on t.v.. Hopefully they will be prosocuted to the full extent of the law.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by GalaHGL (June 09, 2009 2:12 pm ET)
                1 8
                Thumbs down with no comment? Sad. Didn't ya like the ACORN comment?
                Report Abuse
                • Author by mikehuck1976 (June 09, 2009 3:54 pm ET)
                  4 2
                  Bill O'Reilly said that anyone who does not stop Tiller has blood on their hands. That is nothing less than inciting violent retribution.
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by dbeden4153 (June 09, 2009 5:13 pm ET)
                  5  
                  Just by using "ACORN" as some kind of dig automatically disqualifies your points. ACORN members are not Obama brown-shirts sent out to do his bidding. They did not commit voter fraud, and they did not give tours of AIG execs homes. You're being deliberately obtuse to be inflammatory, and it stinks to high heaven.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by fairliberal (June 10, 2009 12:56 am ET)
                      6
                    Of course Acorn is always innocent of everything they are accused of..http://www.seattlepi.com/business/404117_aigbus22.html
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (June 10, 2009 8:48 am ET)
                      2  
                      Once again you spotlight, and assume that if something is accused it must be true, and therefore everything you accuse them of must be true, also. Logic doesn't work that way, no matter how much you attempt to waterboard it to fit your prejudices.
                      Report Abuse
                  • Author by GalaHGL (June 10, 2009 7:35 am ET)
                      4
                    I haven't linked Obama here at all. They are being investigated for voter fraud so we'll see. And their connecticut branch, The Connnecticut Working Families Party, founded by ACORN, organised the tours of AIG execs. It's not inflammatory, it's truth. Which can hurt. Sorry.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (June 10, 2009 8:49 am ET)
                      2  
                      ACORN has absolutely nothing to do with O'Reilly agitating for someone to "rid [him] of this meddlesome [doctor]" Tiller.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by GalaHGL (June 10, 2009 1:58 pm ET)
                          3
                        They are the same thing. ACORN went agitating poor wealth envy victims against AIG. And my point on this subject is that propaganda does not effect normal people to commit murder. This lunatic that murdered Dr. Tiller is deranged. No right thinking person thought Dr. tiller deserved to die this way. His family doesn't deserve the suffering they are going through. But to say a T.V. commentator caused this senseless act is foolishness. I have watched O'reilly's show. Yes he is angry. Yes he is devisive. But never have I been compelled to harm some one because of him. If an AIG Exec house had been burned down or a person killed would you blame the tour organisers. I doubt it.
                        Report Abuse
                • Author by eweston8542983 (June 10, 2009 12:59 am ET)
                  1  
                  Remarkably absurd I'd call it. Without a thumbs down issued.
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by ForTheLoveOfEllipsis... (June 10, 2009 6:18 pm ET)
                     
                  How's this for a comment? "Take your Bahble-beatin' BS back to your First United Bahble-Beatin' Baptist Church and STFU forever..."
                  Report Abuse
              • Author by worrierking (June 09, 2009 4:21 pm ET)
                2  
                I guess by your reasoning we can open the cage and let Charlie loose.
                Report Abuse
              • Author by blueberrysushi (June 09, 2009 5:19 pm ET)
                3  
                I am not sure about your equivalency of Bill O'Reilly and ACORN. They are not, in the least, related. I am sure that the ape-like "conservative-not-too-bad-because-liberals-also-bad" meme is appealing, but you need to find evidence within the media world, rather than ACORN, the current conservative punching-bag.

                Also, your comment: "Propaganda doesn't effect [sic] any body with a little better than average common sense" is, frankly, nonsensical. Propaganda affects all of us, every day. The distinctions between propaganda and mass media are blurry at best, but I think we can confidently say that all of us are swayed by convincing arguments. Whether these are propaganda or not is a matter of perspective.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by GalaHGL (June 10, 2009 7:22 am ET)
                    4
                  I' not equating them. I'm merely pointng out that ACORN giving tours was inviting disaster and if a person of similar mental state as Dr.tillers murderer was on board who knows what may have happened. I'm thankful it didn't.
                  The "ape-like meme" you mention is Standard operating procedure for MMFA. propaganda doesn't affect me. I'm sorry you cn't spot it.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (June 10, 2009 8:52 am ET)
                    2  
                    So you claim you're not really equating them, and then you explain why you equated them.

                    You're like Dick Cheney when he claimed simultaneously that we didn't waterboard detainees, and that waterboarding the detainees was done because it was necessary.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by fairliberal (June 10, 2009 9:51 am ET)
                        4
                      Hey speaking of Dick Cheney, did you see the results of the latest Gallup poll that shows Cheney's approval rating is now higher than Pelosi's. When we get rid of bums like Pelosi, Dodd, Murtha, Frank and Reid things will improve enormously.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by eweston8542983 (June 10, 2009 10:50 am ET)
                           
                        Who would you have replace them?
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by ForTheLoveOfEllipsis... (June 10, 2009 6:21 pm ET)
                             
                          Probably James von Brunn, their new favorite domestic terrorist...
                          Report Abuse
              • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (June 09, 2009 10:46 pm ET)
                2  
                "Propaganda doesn't effect [sic] any body with a little better than average common sense"
                Then why are billions of dollars spent on advertising every month?
                Report Abuse
                • Author by fairliberal (June 10, 2009 1:00 am ET)
                    5
                  Advertising and propaganda are 2 different things. .ad: a public promotion of some product or service
                  wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn - Definition in context

                  propaganda...information, ideas, or rumors deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, institution, nation----

                  I would say you are due for a remedial couse in English.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (June 10, 2009 8:57 am ET)
                    3  
                    I would say you are due a refund on whatever was paid to "educate" you. Propaganda and advertising are identical concepts. Their methods are the same. The only difference is the aim they are trying to achieve.

                    I am not surprised that you don't know that, because you spout propaganda on this site in every post you make, and you don't recognize it as such.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by fairliberal (June 10, 2009 9:54 am ET)
                        3
                      Really now, I would suggest you consult a dictionary as I have. You have shown a lack of comprehension for the English language in the past and are now exibiting it again. Why not show some dictionary definitionthat support you ststement. Lets see some refuting.
                      Report Abuse
                  • Author by Brabantio (June 10, 2009 10:55 am ET)
                       
                    Either people can be persuaded or they can't. In fact, it's quite arguable that the advertising reference isn't powerful enough because people more easily recognize the motivation behind it. Since there are only a handful of people who are paid to express their views on the air, it is very strongly implied that those people have something meaningful to say. Otherwise, why are they still on the air?

                    There is a psychological effect as a result. Have you never listened to a pundit and thought "That's exactly what I was thinking!"? That's reinforcement. Do you really believe that there's no difference in whether someone with violent thoughts or tendencies has their views reinforced in the public dialogue or not?
                    Report Abuse
        • Author by pointofview (June 09, 2009 2:47 pm ET)
          1 6
          Only you could compare O'Reilly to Hitler.

          And at the same time, you defend the actions of a man like tiller. So in your world, aborting babies who could survive outside the mother is fine, and Bill O'Reilly is just like Hitler, who murdered millions. Wow. What color is the sky in your world?
          Report Abuse
          • Author by dbeden4153 (June 09, 2009 5:20 pm ET)
            3  
            POV, read my post below in reply to jpeagle, go to Sullivan's website and read the "It's so personal" posts, and then tell me how many of those babies do you believe could survive outside of the mother. I mean honestly, let's think about this for a second. If you're 7 months pregnant (you being the hypothetical female, not YOU) you probably have known for quite some time that you are pregnant. In fact, I'd say for about 5 months at least. Now, if you clearly didn't want the child, why wouldn't you have gotten an abortion when you first found out you were pregnant? More than likely, it's because you actually wanted this child. That's the difference. 99% of late-term abortions occur not because the woman just didn't want the child, but because some medical complication or other current or foreseeable trauma has come to light, forcing the hand of the woman to obtain that procedure for the quality of life of the child, for her own health, or both.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by dbeden4153 (June 09, 2009 5:23 pm ET)
              1  
              Sorry, "my post above." I forgot where I was.
              Report Abuse
            • Author by fairliberal (June 10, 2009 1:07 am ET)
                5
              But some do just change their mind. It is the same as the opposition to the death penalty, if just one innocent person is put to death, it is too many. It is the same with late term abortion, if just one is done for frivolous reasons it is wrong. If there are not legitimate health reasons involved they should not be done.

              The MD that examined Tiller's records, subpoenad by the state of Kansas, said that he was abusing the law.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (June 10, 2009 9:00 am ET)
                2  
                The MD that examined Tiller's records, subpoenad by the state of Kansas, said that he was abusing the law.
                Actually, the partisan, prejudiced "MD" that examined some, but not all, of Tiller's records, subpoenaed by the state of Kansas, claimed without proof that he was abusing the law. He also was not allowed to testify in the case because he did not have legal standing and was not recognized as an expert in the question at hand.

                Just thought I'd correct your propaganda for you.
                Report Abuse
              • Author by pearlene_scott1602 (June 10, 2009 3:50 pm ET)
                1  
                The MD that examined Tiller's records, subpoenad by the state of Kansas, said that he was abusing the law.


                The quack MD that examined Dr. Tiller's records also said:

                McHugh is the man whose report to the court in one case stated that a defendant's harassing phone calls were not obscene - including the call that detailed a fantasy of a 4-year-old sex slave locked in a dog cage and fed human waste. At least eight men have been convicted of sexually abusing Maryland children while under treatment at the sex disorders clinic McHugh runs at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine - abuse the doctors did not report, citing client confidentiality. When Maryland law was changed to require that doctors report child molestation, the clinic fought it and advised patients on how to get around the law. The memo to patients suggested that molesters report their pedophilic activities to their lawyers, who could in turn tell staff; attorney-client privilege would then protect the molesters from being reported. This memo was fully approved by the boss - Dr. Paul McHugh http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/09/20/ED175849.DTL

                Dr. Paul McHugh, once said Johns Hopkins' Sexual Disorders Clinic, which treats molesters, was justified in concealing multiple incidents of child rape and fondling to police, despite a state law requiring staffers to report them.

                "We did what we thought was appropriate," said Dr. McHugh, then director of Hopkins' Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences, which oversaw the sex clinic. He agreed with his subordinate, clinic head Fred Berlin, who broke the then-new child sexual abuse law on the grounds that it might keep child molesters from seeking treatment.

                Report Abuse
          • Author by blueberrysushi (June 09, 2009 5:22 pm ET)
            2  
            I agree that the Hitler example is far-fetched, but I think he was using an extreme example to make a point. I don't see that he said "Bill O'Reilly is just like Hitler," nor did he imply it.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by snoopy (June 09, 2009 5:34 pm ET)
              2  
              Thanks, that was the idea. As expected, POV always reads more than is really there.
              Report Abuse
            • Author by fairliberal (June 10, 2009 1:08 am ET)
                4
              But how come you are not as reasonable when O'Reilly uses far fetched examples. No one here is, certainly not snoopy.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (June 10, 2009 9:01 am ET)
                2  
                Because snoopy has a history here of being reasonable. Neither you nor O'Reilly enjoy the same reputation as snoopy.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by fairliberal (June 10, 2009 10:37 am ET)
                    3
                  Wrong again, snoopy has a history of being on your side, that is your only criteria.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by eweston8542983 (June 10, 2009 10:57 am ET)
                       
                    Snoopy's on alot of people's side. At best I'd say 10% find themselves on your side.
                    Report Abuse
    • Author by shaggles (June 09, 2009 12:03 pm ET)
      8  
      "Second, Noise Machine leaders claimed that liberal commentators do exactly what O'Reilly and Beck have been accused of: using violent political hate language that puts people's lives in danger. That claim has been made over and over, yet conservatives can't actually produce any proof -- can't find any hateful liberal quotes -- to buttress the claim."

      This is what I find weird. They seem to be simultaneously saying that O'Reilly, et al are not inciting violence and that Olberman and Maddow are just as bad. Which is it? How can you say that Olberman is just as bad as O'Reilly if you claim that O'Reilly isn't bad at all?
      Report Abuse
    • Author by pags2 (June 09, 2009 1:35 pm ET)
      4  
      O'Reilly has tried to distance himself from his words as having any part in the killing of the doctor. However, this is the same O'Reilly that has decried rappers that he claims influence young people. He cannot have it both ways. I am sure it would be very easy to dig up some of his quotes about rappers. O'Reilly talks out of both sides of his mouth.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by patpathos (June 09, 2009 1:42 pm ET)
      2 7
      [b]Just because something is LAWFUL does not automatically make it moral or ethical. Furthermore, it should not be lawful for a woman to be able to kill her own child or rather use the medical laws as murder for hire. The unborn child is a human being, not a kidney, or excess fat to be lipo suctioned out. They merely don't have the maturity or ability to speak for themselves a condition not totally unlike Saddam's victims in Iraq and other countries. You can call them 'abortion providers' all day long and it will never change the fact that these doctors and mothers as well are indeed murderers. I don't expect to change your beliefs on the subjects however our own laws contradict themselves as you can see in many murders of pregnant women in which case the perpetrator of these crimes are charged not only with the murder of the woman but the unborn child as well.
      So you tell me? Is the unborn child a human or not. Our lawmakers certainly don't seem to be able to make up their minds.
      btw Our honorable brothers and sisters who have fallen in the line of duty chose to become the heros of our nation. They died with honor and dignity and it is a great loss for our country while at the same time being a great source of pride that has been shown by these fallen Americans. Murdered children however are a shameful commentary in our nation's history.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by congero6189599 (June 09, 2009 5:18 pm ET)
        3  
        Your absolutely right, your argument does not change MY beliefs at all, only hardened them. You have a right to your beleifs but not to the facts, and all science refutes you.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by blueberrysushi (June 09, 2009 5:26 pm ET)
        5  
        Just because something is LAWFUL does not automatically make it moral or ethical. patpathos

        Agreed. And just because something is illegal does not automatically make it immoral or unethical. Where we seem to disagree is whether abortion is immoral or unethical. I do not think it is immoral to have an abortion, nor unethical to perform one. A fetus is, indeed, not a kidney. Nor is it a baby. It is a fetus.

        You can call them 'abortion providers' all day long and it will never change the fact that these doctors and mothers as well are indeed murderers. patpathos

        No, they are not. They have not killed a person. They have had/performed an abortion. When the fetus becomes a baby (when it is born, alive), then it it becomes a person. This is the source of our fundamental disagreement, not whether the law creates morality.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by 3rdParty (June 12, 2009 4:05 am ET)
             
          killing is ending life. Tiller was in the business of ending life.
          Report Abuse
    • Author by Manjusri (June 09, 2009 1:54 pm ET)
      3 1
      O'Reilly is irresponsible, and he should moderate his tone.

      But he isn't the person who is responsible for Tiller's assassin.

      People who commit these acts aren't casual viewers of O'Reilly and Beck - they live deep in the paraniod right, and nurse their grudges daily for years, feeding on much more powerful and unhinged rhetoric than O'Reilly's.

      I doubt that O'Reilly influenced this guy in the slightest. Savage, maybe, since he seems to have a much more radical audience, but still there is hardly a direct connection.

      The best you can argue is that, perhaps, the escalation of rhetoric on the right gives radical groups some cover, leads to more acceptance among the moderate right, and affirms the paranoia of their members. This is bad, and should be condemned, but there is no direct causation between O'Reilly and right wing terrorists.

      Whether O'Reilly spouts like this or not, the radical right will remain, and they will increase in radicalism because they are have no one in power in the government to even give lip service to their causes.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by diogenie27611 (June 09, 2009 2:27 pm ET)
      6 1
      I will agree that self-righteousness can be dangerous no matter what side it comes from but right-wing pundits seem to specialize in it and they do create an atmosphere that can push lunatics into thinking they're doing something heroic when they kill a doctor or blow up a federal building. You can try to divert attention to Olberman all you want but the truth of the matter is that Fox News and Rush Limbaugh popularized punditry of the worst kind.

      When you refer to someone as a baby killer and tout the imminent danger to little babies he represents and he gets killed you have few options. You can say either "Thank god someone killed him" OR you say: "My God, I feel horrible about the things I said that may have contributed to his murder." You can NOT say "I had nothing to do with it and I don't condone violence."

      The simple fact remains if it were not for O'Reilly and other pundits like him, "NO ONE WOULD HAVE KNOW WHO TILLER WAS AND LIKELY NO ONE WOULD HAVE KILLED HIM!!!" I hope that the Tiller family sues Fox News in Civil Court making that very argument and I hope that they win because the violent, hateful rhetoric spewed on Fox News has nothing to do with the first amendment.

      THEY DID NOT ARGUE AGAINST ABORTION! THEY DID NOT URGE PEOPLE TO VOTE A CERTAIN WAY! THEY DID NOT CRITICIZE A COURT DECISION! THEY DEMONIZED A PRIVATE CITIZEN WHO, LIKE EVERYONE ELSE, WAS FOLLOWING THEIR OWN MORAL COMPASS WITHIN THE LIMITS OF THE LAW!
      Report Abuse
      • Author by fairliberal (June 09, 2009 4:00 pm ET)
        3 8
        The simple fact remains if it were not for O'Reilly and other pundits like him, "NO ONE WOULD HAVE KNOW WHO TILLER WAS AND LIKELY NO ONE WOULD HAVE KILLED HIM!!!" I hope that the Tiller family sues Fox News in Civil Court making that very argument and I hope that they win because the violent, hateful rhetoric spewed on Fox News has nothing to do with the first amendment.

        That is your statement and it is BS. Tiller's clinic was first bombed in 1986, 10 years before thr Fox News Channel even existed.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by dbeden4153 (June 09, 2009 5:01 pm ET)
          2  
          FairLiberal,
          While I agree that diogenie's statement is inherently false, there is something to be said about the Reagan revolution and the rise to prominence of evangelical conservatives that have nurtured the more radicalized right-wing sentiments. Sure, his statement is BS, because abortion clinics have been targeted since Roe vs. Wade, but inflammatory rhetoric only gets you an inflamed audience.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by fairliberal (June 09, 2009 11:02 pm ET)
              5
            What you say is true to a degree, radicals exist on both sides of the fence and are energized by a leader that they view as a kindred spirit, regardless of whether or not the leader is actually on the same page as them.

            Look at people like Jeanine Garafolo, who recently was calling anyone who attended a Tea Party a racist, who was just against a black president. Certainly an inflammatory position to take and one that could incite a racial backlash in an unbalanced individual. But would Garafolo be to blame if that were to happen. No she would not, unless she called for violence against another. And neither is anyone else.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (June 10, 2009 9:23 am ET)
              1  
              Look at people like Jeanine Garafolo, who recently was calling anyone who attended a Tea Party a racist
              The people holding the racist signs were racist, and that included the majority of the teabaggers.

              I would say that "being against a black president" is definitely racist.

              Taking "an inflammatory position" (not true, merely your opinion) and saying that "anyone who doesn't stop Dr Tiller has blood on his hands" are two completely different things. And since you know nothing about logical fallacies since you use them all the time, look up "false equivalence."
              Report Abuse
              • Author by fairliberal (June 10, 2009 10:42 am ET)
                  4
                It was Garafolo who said they were just against a black president, the participants said they were protesting Obama's economic policies. I guess these people are racists too..http://americanpowerblog.blogspot.com/2009/04/fresno-tea-party-blacks-against-obama.html
                Report Abuse
              • Author by jpeagle21 (June 11, 2009 12:06 am ET)
                  1
                You're name is kind-of ironic seeing as how you don't seem to be refuting anything.

                "The people holding the racist signs were racist, and that included the majority of the teabaggers." - Flat out lie. Show me a picture where most (if any) protesters had racist signs.

                "I would say that "being against a black president" is definitely racist." - Wrong. We can't not like the president because he is black? That automatically makes a white person a racist? That would be like saying that every black person who was against any past president was a racist.

                "Taking "an inflammatory position" (not true, merely your opinion) and saying that "anyone who doesn't stop Dr Tiller has blood on his hands" are two completely different things. And since you know nothing about logical fallacies since you use them all the time, look up "false equivalence." - Another lie. Show me a quote where someone (anyone!) said "anyone who doesn't stop Dr. Tiller has blood on his hands."

                On secont thought, maybe your name does make sense. You ARE an easy to refute nut.


                Report Abuse
            • Author by solon (June 11, 2009 12:25 pm ET)
                 
              Ganeane is fiesty. She isnt afraid to let the rhetoric fly and she isnt all that careful about her facts. I think she was not only wrong to say what she did but clearly being rude and inflamatory. Still nothing she said had violent imagry nor could it be in any way seen as an exhortation to violence. She was wrong. She didnt do the same thing O'Reilly did.
              Report Abuse
        • Author by diogenie27611 (June 09, 2009 5:03 pm ET)
          2  
          Rush Limbaugh existed! Talk radio existed! And it was 20 years ago! Fox News if abything should have known better!
          Report Abuse
          • Author by diogenie27611 (June 09, 2009 5:05 pm ET)
            2  
            Fox News does NOT get to say they had nothing to do with it. My point is that if the media had left Tiller alone and concentrated on the issue of abortion and whether it should be legal, Tiller would be alive. That's not BS, it's common sense. Lunatics are notoriously bad at doing their own research.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by fairliberal (June 09, 2009 6:08 pm ET)
              1 6
              Are you also saying that the left should have criticised the Iraq War without mentioning Bush and Cheney. The fact is that Bush and Cheney were part of the story, as was Tiller on this issue.

              I opposed Tiller and his practice but would not outlaw abortion entirely. There are legitimate reasons why abortion should remain legal. But I strongly oppose late term abortions of viable fetuses unless the mother's health is at stake. Tiller was abusing the law in my opinion and in the opinion of many others. The only MD to examine his records said he was acting illegally. Their was a nurse from Kansas who participated in a discussion a few days ago, she had 30 years experience in the state of Kansas, she also stated that there were plenty of abuses in Kansas. She was immediately branded a liar by some of the people here at this site.

              Where is all of that "grey thinking " I have heard so much about from the libs here, I have not seen much evidence of it.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by congero6189599 (June 09, 2009 10:43 pm ET)
                3  
                FL: Their was only one doctor that examined his records and siad he was acting illegally??? You mean only one doctor examined his records??? WTF he needed another doctors opinion to carryout the procedure, so maybe you mean there was only one doctor that found his procedures illegal. Nice try though!
                Report Abuse
                • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (June 09, 2009 11:06 pm ET)
                  2  
                  This is the same so-called qualified medical doctor that FL tried to sell on the other O'Reilly/Tiller thread. He was completely shut down on that thread, so what does he do? Starts with precisely the same debunked argument on this thread. It's the way wingnuts argue. When proven false, they just go somewhere else and make the same argument, hoping that no one has memory retention longer than a goldfish.
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by fairliberal (June 09, 2009 11:10 pm ET)
                    4
                  Obviously you are not familiar with the case, there was only one doctor that reviewed his records for the state of Kansas, that expert said he was in violation of the law. When a new DA came into office he only called Tiller's colleague in the late term abortions as a witness. Her only income was from Tiller's clinic, she naturally supported him. Sebelius could not allow her good buddy to be convicted. The new DA never even called the expert to testify.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (June 10, 2009 9:25 am ET)
                    2  
                    Same false argument you have made several times. Karl Rove thought that repeating a lie enough made it true, too.

                    It doesn't.
                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by LuvLuLu (June 10, 2009 1:49 pm ET)
                    1  
                    Yeah, you continue to lie.

                    There was anothere doctor that examined his decisions ,at the time, concurrent with the abortions, with lots more data than Dr McHugh had to examine. And that doctor, who was found in a court of law to be sufficiently independent, didn't disapprove of the late term abortions.

                    Why are you so disgustingly ridiculing the rulings in a court of law that found that he hadn't done anything wrong? We've already debunked your point that McHugh could make a decision based upon the records he reviewed - that's why he wasn't called into court to testify, because the prosecution would have been laughed out of court.

                    Oh, and keep up the personal attacks. The last two people who went after me, instead of after my messages, have stopped posting here, and were likely banned because of their behavior. I'd love it if you suffered the same fate, and perhaps were replaced by a person from the right without such a distain for the truth.
                    Report Abuse
              • Author by richrdh (June 09, 2009 10:49 pm ET)
                1 1
                A review of records showed in a limited number of cases he may have been acting illegally. Not he was acting illegally.
                Report Abuse
            • Author by 3rdParty (June 12, 2009 4:09 am ET)
              1  
              I don't like Fox either but abortion Doctors have been targeted long before O'Rielly started ranting about Tiller.
              Report Abuse
          • Author by fairliberal (June 09, 2009 5:57 pm ET)
              4
            Yes Rush was around, his national show started in 1988, 2 years after Tiller's 1986 bombing incident.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by diogenie27611 (June 10, 2009 3:09 am ET)
              1  
              Rush has been hosting radio shows since the 70s, idiot! If you're a fairliberal, I'm a hardcore communist.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by fairliberal (June 10, 2009 10:48 am ET)
                  2
                No you are the idiot, Rush's national show began in 1988, just as I stated.

                And he did hold some radio positions in the earlier years, he hosted a music show for example.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by pearlene_scott1602 (June 10, 2009 3:54 pm ET)
                  2  
                  No you are the idiot, Rush's national show began in 1988, just as I stated.


                  In 1984, Limbaugh returned to radio as a talk show host at KFBK in Sacramento, California, where he replaced Morton Downey, Jr.
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by diogenie27611 (June 11, 2009 1:21 pm ET)
                     
                  No you're still the idiot because you keep implying that Rush was not a political commentator prior to the advent of his current show. HE WAS!!! You also keep insisting that Tiller's high public profile has NOTHING to do with the right wing hate machine. IT does. And your insistence on using the login "fairliberal" is intended to engage in the same kind of deception conservatives have become famous for.
                  Report Abuse
        • Author by amind2think (June 10, 2009 4:31 am ET)
             
          ALTHOUGH YOU ARE RIGHT ABOUT THE BOMBING IT DOESNT MAKE IT RIGHT THAT BILL O'REILLY CAN GET AWAY WITH INSTIGATING CRAZY PEOPLE. HE KNEW WHAT HE WAS DOING AND FOX ALSO!!! IF ANYTHING HAPPENS TO OUR PRESIDENT FOX NEWS AND ALL OF THEIR CREW SHOULD BE HELD AND TRIED FOR TREASON !!!
          Report Abuse
          • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (June 10, 2009 9:26 am ET)
            1  
            CAPS LOCK! CAPS LOCK! CAPS LOCK!

            Or are you still using WebTV?
            Report Abuse
          • Author by 3rdParty (June 12, 2009 4:23 am ET)
               
            O'Reilly is almost as evil of a person as Tiller was.
            Report Abuse
    • Author by bonsai pajamas (June 09, 2009 3:28 pm ET)
      2  
      O'Reilly has been going on about Tiller's murder since it happened now. He "doth protest too much, methinks." Could it be that O'Reilly knows he's in some trouble? Before the murder, in his tirades against Tiller, O'Reilly said something he best pray is true -- he said Tiller would perform late term abortions for any reason at all. That's to suggest that Tiller was unethical in his practice, performing unnecessary surgery on his patients. Or at least, if I were a lawyer for the Tiller family, that's the way I'd pursue it.

      i bet O'Reilly still stings from Andrea Mackris suing him -- he doesn't tolerate even the mention of it. He knows, then, that things can be accomplished in civil court that can't be accomplished in criminal court. I hope Dr. Tiller's family is thinking about this, and I know O'Reilly is hoping they aren't thinking about it.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by fairliberal (June 09, 2009 6:09 pm ET)
          5
        Of course he has, he was immediately pounced upon by the left, shouldn't he defend himself.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by bonsai pajamas (June 09, 2009 8:44 pm ET)
          2  
          Sure he should defend himself. I'd love to see him defending himself in civil court in fact. For months and months and months.
          Report Abuse
    • Author by idacasata (June 09, 2009 4:03 pm ET)
      5  
      If men could have abortions , you would be able to get one at every Circle K. . . .
      Report Abuse
      • Author by pearlene_scott1602 (June 10, 2009 3:57 pm ET)
           
        [b]If men could have abortions , you would be able to get one at every Circle K. . . .


        AMEN!!
        Report Abuse
    • Author by idacasata (June 09, 2009 4:10 pm ET)
         
      If men could have abortions , you would be able to get one at every Circle K. . . .
      Report Abuse
    • Author by Byte Man (June 09, 2009 4:48 pm ET)
      3  
      Simple truth. Did O' Liely's commentaries incite Roper into killing Dr. Tiller? Maybe. Did O'Liely use inciteful speech to sell his point? Absolutely. Is he a journalist or a commentator? The answer is a commentator, and not a very responsible one at that. Calling someone a "Baby Killer" and then saying something like "If he is not stopped" is incredibly inflammatory. It stands to reason that some wingnut might see that as a call to action to murder Dr. Tiller.

      Compare that to Keith Olbermann, who said "I accuse you of causing in Iraq the needless deaths of 3,586 of our brothers and sons, and sisters and daughters, and friends and neighbors." Is this a statement that can be seen as a call to action to murder? No. Is this saying bush actually committed 3,585 murders? No.

      What it IS saying is that by taking unilateral action in launching a fraudulent war in Iraq, based on information that was obtained from torture, which is always suspect, was proven wrong, and therefore, this war is based on lies, (why else had the bush Administration shifted the reasons for the war so many times?) it could be considered illegal. If Bush and Cheny had done due dilligence in their investigations, adhering to the LETTER OF THE LAW, they might not have launched the war in Iraq, causing those deaths. If they had not, and concentrated all their efforts on Bin Laden, and not Saddam, Bush might have been seen in a better light than he is.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by Manjusri (June 09, 2009 5:09 pm ET)
        1  
        It's a false comparison, anyway.

        People say all sorts of things about the President, throughout the world. It doesn't make it right, but it is the fact. He has the secret service to protect him, at our expense, and the press (theoretically) and his party to defend his name. Violent rhetoric against a private citizen is much more likely to end in murder.

        Report Abuse
      • Author by Snooper (June 09, 2009 5:26 pm ET)
        1 8
        The headline is all wrong. It should read as follows:

        The American Liberal and all Obamedia Outlets will have more leftt-wing vigilantism to explain

        There. That is more accurate. I find it woefully disingenuous that a murdered of the unborn was murdered (which was wrong) and the outrage was overdone but a US Army Soldier was murdered by a Jihadi scum sucker and all of you merely ignored it.

        Good work you two-faced sycophants.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by snoopy (June 09, 2009 7:29 pm ET)
          4  
          I just dialed whine-one-one so they could dispatch your whaaaambulance. Hopefully they can put your pathetic strawman on life support...
          Report Abuse
        • Author by LuvLuLu (June 09, 2009 7:34 pm ET)
          3  
          We discussed this elsewhere and thoroughly debunked this rightwing talking point.

          There's are multiple reasons that the killing of Dr Tiller got a lot more media attention than did the killing of one soldier and the injuring of another.

          The fact that unique and horrific murders of more famous people get much more media attention that do murders of average, unknown folk is not something that you can blame on lefties.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by fairliberal (June 09, 2009 8:32 pm ET)
              8
            Ah, here is the enlightened LuLu who described the killing of Pvt Long as just the everyday killing of an average soldier. By a man who was upset with the military. Great analysis.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by snoopy (June 09, 2009 10:24 pm ET)
              2  
              Ahhh, here is the enlightened fauxliberal who birthed a 20 lb reichwing strawman about an everyday killing of an average soldier. Just watching a phony who never served express faux outrage over soldiers in support of phony republicans who use soldiers for political purposes is priceless at best.
              Report Abuse
            • Author by Brabantio (June 10, 2009 12:00 am ET)
              2  
              Seriously, give it up. You seem deranged.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (June 10, 2009 9:27 am ET)
                1  
                You seem deranged.
                It's true. FL does not have a range.
                Report Abuse
        • Author by solon (June 11, 2009 12:28 pm ET)
             
          No it isnt more accurate just stupider and more inane. Good job showing us just how brainwashed a really dumb person can be. Isnt it time for Rush to tell you what you think today?
          Report Abuse
    • Author by easterner (June 09, 2009 4:59 pm ET)
      2  
      I used to watch fox but I found myself looking elsewhere to see if their propaganda and grand standing is fair and balanced.The propaganda and the grand standing they do isTHEIR idea of news and commentary.It's nothing more than mind rape if there can be such a thing.The World Wide Web is full of sites to better inform me of what I need to know.Beck,Oreilly,Hannity and maybe some others are millionaires.Do you think they really care? Didn't they say they hoped our President succeeds because if he does then we do,BEFORE he got sworn in.Ya Right ,as soon as Pres.Obama was sworn in the bashing was in full swing.Any issue they want to cover and make comment on gets turned into "Militia Media" propaganda,it doesn't do us any favors.Turn them off and go find some real media reporting.Watching them just makes their bank accounts grow lager.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by b2h (June 09, 2009 5:10 pm ET)
      3  
      In the first place, whether one likes it or doesn't, abortion is legal. It's a medical procedure. If one disagrees with the legality of the medical procedure, which like viagra, diabetes, or cancer is a personal discussion between one and her doctor, then go to the courts through the legal system and get the law overturned.

      This is not rocket science.

      The appropriate response to a law we don't like is to work within the system to get the law overturned, not to kill someone who is operating within the law.

      Most folks who have talked about what Dr. Tiller did had no clue. As well they shouldn't. Since, as I stated above, the procedure is a personal decision made between one's doctor and oneself.

      I don't know how many times it can be repeated before lunkheads on both sides of the discussion finally get a clue:

      1) it's a legal medical procedure, and
      2) unless you are a doctor or a pregnant female....
      IT'S NONE OF YOUR $%^&*( BUSINESS!!!!!!

      Thank you.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by sheerinsanity (June 09, 2009 7:29 pm ET)
      3  
      If Bill O'Reilly has to resort to the left wing smear defense or send out Little Jesse to ambush you, it means you have done your job.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by only_myschly3567 (June 09, 2009 7:52 pm ET)
      1  
      The right lies, denies, whatever it takes to demonize anyone who isn't a Right-wing Christian who believed Bush was a good president 2006 (No matter what the facts state or what's going on in the real world).
      Report Abuse
    • Author by bluhawk7398 (June 09, 2009 9:11 pm ET)
      2 7
      Hey Boehlert or anyone...
      First, you seem to insinuate that there is a direct link between the coverage of "Tiller the killer" and his murder....Prove it! Don't try bland insinuation to mislead these easily led people into regurgitating your fallacies.
      Second, I noticed you highlighted "right-wing domestic terrorism", yeah, you know what's coming....Pray, explain the lack of interest Obama and his handlers STILL have in explaining his connections with Weatherman Bill Ayers, who is guilty of(oh my GOD!!!) left-wing domestic terrorism which(double Oh my GODDD!!!) killed people... All sarcasm aside, I would really like to know why a sliver thin possibility of a link between Fox and Tillers murderer has produced this much concern when the Ayers link was immediately shelved.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (June 09, 2009 11:12 pm ET)
        2  
        Bill Ayres has been discussed and debunked hundreds of times elsewhere on the Internet, as well as on this site. As they say in court, "asked and answered." The fact that you do not know this and go right ahead with the standard right-wing tactic of bringing up a lie yet again, hoping no one remembers the fact that it has been debunked, means there is no reason to acknowledge your existence, let alone debunk you yet again.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by Snooper (June 09, 2009 9:18 pm ET)
        3
      I went ahead and rewrote your article the way it should have been written

      http://tinyurl.com/m7bcdy
      Report Abuse
      • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (June 10, 2009 9:29 am ET)
        1  
        The way it was written was factual, logical, precise, and correct.

        The way you wrote it, the first draft was probably in crayon because you shouldn't be allowed anywhere near sharp objects. And, with your intellect, you don't need to be worried about being close to anything sharp.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by koolmuse5219 (June 10, 2009 3:44 am ET)
      1  
      This is about the conservative movement, which has quite a long bloody history of terrorism and violence in America. The Christian GOP, their media, politicians and rank & file are persistent in egregiously inciting and driving to violent anger the extremist lunatics among them......whom they know full-well are watching and listening......
      Their numbers include the Christian White Supremacist militia movement...and all kinds of twisted individuals such as Dr Tiller's murderer. These irrational extremists are convinced...by the likes of Limbaugh, the entire corporate media, GOP and their politicians, Beck, Hannity and company.... that drastic measures are in order and the “right to bear arms” is there for one obvious reason....and they strike!!…hard!!
      Many people have been murdered, maimed and had their lives destroyed by them.
      The "rank & vile" conservative culture in America is behind them 100%.

      The examples of these American homegrown terrorists murderers is long....their work gruesome.

      The anti-government anti-tax right-wing conservative GOP media turned David Koresch, child rapist gun-runner police-murderer kidnapper suicidal maniac into a folk hero for his brave stand against the government, Clinton and the "jack-booted thugs" of we call policemen.
      This brought him to Tim McVeigh’s attention. This guy was a self-proclaimed conservative right-wing anti-government soldier…..He didn’t acknowledge that he was a murderous lunatic sociopath. He was driven to do what he did by those same people, who never let the Waco issue go…....for one day. McVeigh was convinced action had to be taken. And since he considered himself a soldier….he murdered all those innocent people....whom he was also convinced by Limbaugh & Co were not innocent.

      And how about Eric Rudolph...another favorite poster-boy lunatic Christian conservative hero?

      Same with the guy who shot three police officers in Pittsburg. He was soldier for the GOP/Christian hate-Obama hate-America treasonous campaign.


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      • Author by ForTheLoveOfEllipsis... (June 10, 2009 5:51 pm ET)
           
        Now, of course, you can ass James von Brunn to the list. But it's all the fault of them-thur Gawdless lib'ruls, y'all know...
        Report Abuse
      • Author by jpeagle21 (June 11, 2009 12:09 am ET)
          2
        Wow....you seriously need help. Seek help soon! No really, shut down your computer right now and go straight to see a shrink.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by congero6189599 (June 11, 2009 8:21 am ET)
             
          JP. you'd do well to heed your own advice! Just sayin'!
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    • Author by Independent Conservative (June 10, 2009 11:35 pm ET)
         
      I have never been a big fan of Fox News, if for no other reason then their support of the likes of Sean hannity: the man is a liar! However, I do not find Bill O'Riley's general comments to be inflammatory.

      Yes, like the Wall Street Journal - they tend to swing Hard-Right, but when does Freedom of Speech become - Dangerous? Most certainly, they are not a person shouting "fire" in a crowded theater.

      My biggest complaint is that they appear to deliberately see and sell their viewpoints from - only one vantage point. This would be acceptable as just, truthful and moral is - there was a possibility that a coin had only - one side. However, we all know that no such coin exists - nor any such 'Truth.'

      I would think that the blame here resides with the militant - Neo Liberal Left. It is they who have foisted upon us the totalitarianism and Liberal enforced tyranny of - Political Correct. And when Americans are not allowed public venue or forum to express their personal viewpoints (regardless of whom they may offend) for fear of losing jobs, homes or rights - what tends to evolved are explosions - like the ones we are experiencing at present.

      I quote the following comment from The Conservative Independent of June 7, 2009:

      So widespread is the fear of disarmament following Obama's election, Americans have been flooding gun shops to buy millions of dollars in firearms. And according to records to date, over 1.5 billion rounds of ammunition - since December of 2008.

      This is not a healthy 'national vote of confidence' to the election of the - first Black American president.


      Allen J. Duffis
      Editor
      The Conservative Independent
      www.conserveind.com
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    • Author by rtdavis11200 (June 11, 2009 8:14 am ET)
        1
      While Fox and Murdoch continue to spew hate towards the new president the FCC does nothing.

      Fox is trying to overturn an election with their rhetoric and the FCC does nothing.

      How many innocent people have to die before the FCC controls Fox freedom of speech.

      Why is not a single network covering Cheney admitting that there was no connection between Iraq and 9/11.

      Obama inherits a war that was not neccessary and FOX blames him on a daily basis for all the problems Americans are having.

      FCC please do something.
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    • Author by Ribelin2000 (June 11, 2009 10:08 am ET)
        1
      Right-wing tools like O'Reilley and Bernard Goldberg continue to insist that they are not culpable, because other viewers and readers aren't lining up to commit violent acts. But aren't
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    • Author by Cheney2012 (June 11, 2009 1:54 pm ET)
         
      Boehlert lie: "O'Reilly and Fox News will have more right-wing vigilantism to explain"

      Ah..no they won't. They are not responsible for any if it.
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      • Author by Brabantio (June 12, 2009 12:05 am ET)
           
        So when conservatives were so worried about terrorists being emboldened by anti-war protests here, they knew they were full of it and were just trying to suppress dissent for purely political purposes and at the expense of American lives.

        Good to know.
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    • Author by nochump1 (June 11, 2009 4:45 pm ET)
         
      So, are not the O'Reilly's , and Beck's of the world allways blaming the lyrics of rap music as the downfall of the urban neighborhoods?Theimages of 'liberal' hollwood downgrading society as a whole?

      And yet there extremist rants(I mean opinions) have no impact what so ever? Are they not in the entertainment business? Oh wait that would be a double standard would'nt it?
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