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Jamison Foser
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Time for media to clarify the health care debate

August 07, 2009 8:28 am ET

Depending on how you look at it, we're roughly six months or 60 years into the debate over whether and how the government should ensure universal health care for all Americans. And yet if there's one thing polling on the public's opinions about health care makes clear, it's that people are confused, holding a disparate mix of often contradictory views and frequently clinging to incorrect beliefs.

For reporters, there is a clear lesson in this: Put the polls down. Just walk away. Pay them no attention. Pretend they don't exist.

For one thing, whatever you think they mean, there's plenty of evidence to support the opposite interpretation.

For another, there just isn't anything particularly noteworthy in the results. People favor significant reform, think all Americans should have coverage, are concerned about how much it will cost, worry that change could make their own situation worse -- is any of this really surprising? Does anyone actually need a poll to tell them these things?

Put another way: When is the last time you saw a truly surprising poll result? When is the last time you saw poll data that showed that people don't care whether others have health insurance and don't think the government should have any role in health care whatsoever? Or the last time you saw a poll that found people were willing to pay higher taxes and lose the ability to choose their own doctors and cede health care decisions to the government if that's what it takes to get coverage for their neighbors?

Not only is the overwhelming majority of health care polling unsurprising, much of it is essentially meaningless. Take the oft-asked question of whether people approve of President Obama's handling of health care. That's a question the media love to tout -- but what does it mean? Basically nothing. If 60 percent disapprove, what does that tell us? Without knowing how many disapprove because they don't think the government should be involved in health care and how many disapprove because they think Obama should have won passage of a public option by now, the result doesn't tell us anything. Likewise, if 60 percent approve, we don't know why. Is it his emphasis on bipartisanship? His deference to Congress? His advocacy for universal coverage and a public option?

Then there's the truly meaningless. Take a look at this question from a new CNN poll:

If your member of Congress came to your community and held a town hall meeting or some other public forum where voters got a chance to speak, how likely is it that you would attend that event to tell your member of Congress what you think about health care? Would you be very likely, somewhat likely, not very likely, or not likely at all to do that?

Forty-one percent said "very likely" and 30 percent said "somewhat likely," and that doesn't tell us anything. Why not? Because we have nothing to compare it to. CNN has apparently never asked a question like this before -- about health care or any other issue. So we don't know whether those numbers are high or low; we don't know what the baseline is.

My suspicion is that if you asked people five questions in a row about, say, education -- an issue that hasn't gotten much attention in quite a while -- and then asked them if they would take the opportunity to tell their member of Congress what they think about education, a large number of respondents would answer affirmatively.

Here's an illustration of the importance of having points of comparison for poll data like this: In February, a CNN poll asked respondents how important it was for the president and Congress to deal with several issues. Eight-one percent said it was "extremely" or "very" important that they deal with education. Wow, 81 percent! That's huge, right? Well, no. The economy came in at 95 percent, terrorism at 82 percent, health care at 77 percent, Social Security and Medicare at 83 percent, taxes, 76 percent, Iraq, 75 percent, Afghanistan, 76 percent, energy policy, 73 percent ... you get the point.

So when a CNN poll finds that 71 percent of Americans say they're likely to attend a town hall meeting to tell their members of Congress what they think about health care but provides absolutely no other data to measure that result against, it doesn't really have much value at all. It tells us next to nothing.

Now add in the fact that it doesn't tell us how many of those 71 percent want to tell their member of Congress to stop screwing around and pass a public plan, and how many want to tell their member of Congress to keep the government's hands off their health care. It's pretty clear now that that 71 percent figure means much less than it seems, isn't it?

In fact, it means so little that I have a hard time believing it was actually intended to measure anything important. I suspect the sole reason it was included in the poll was so that CNN could include the result in their news reports about angry town hall attendees -- not because they thought it would actually be illuminative. It isn't compelling information; it's a prop.

Speaking about angry town hall attendees: Ignore them, too. A dozen people shouting at a town hall meeting -- even a dozen people shouting at each of a hundred town hall meetings -- just doesn't tell us anything meaningful about public opinion. It tells us that there are at least few thousand angry people, and that they're organized. We already know that.

Look: Sarah Palin drew big crowds last year -- and a lot of those people were angry. They yelled, they held up nasty signs, and they convinced a lot of the media there was some huge groundswell of opposition to Barack Obama. Then he went out and won North Carolina and Indiana.

Video of people yelling about health care may make for good television, but it makes for lousy journalism. It exaggerates the numbers and significance of the people who yell the loudest, whichever side they're on. (And this should go without saying, but a shaky cell-phone video that shows a half-dozen of the hundred people at a meeting, and that was provided by people who are trying to "artificially inflate" their numbers, is not a particularly reliable indication of what happened at that meeting.)

So, basically, there's no real value in reporting on polls or protests. How should news organizations cover health care reform?

Simple: Cover health care reform.

All those polls showing that people hold contradictory views and false -- or at least highly questionable -- beliefs about health care and efforts to reform it are a pretty good indication of what reporters should be doing: Reporting the truth, and doing it often. Giving people the facts about health care and about proposals to reform it.

When you see people yelling, "Keep your government hands off my Medicare," that's a pretty good indication that the public could use some solid facts. How many people do you think know that health care reform with a strong public option would cost taxpayers less than a plan without such an option? I would bet that a distressingly large number of members of Congress don't know that -- and that very, very few voters do.

People are understandably confused and unfamiliar with the facts -- there are an awful lot of people spending an awful lot of money to confuse them and keep them in the dark. And they don't have the time or the resources to sort through it all and find out whether reform would mean that a government bureaucrat is really going to show up at their door and tell them it's time to die in order to save taxpayers money. (No: That would not happen.)

As Brendan Nyhan notes, the media bear significant responsibility for this confusion:

Who's to blame for this problem? I largely fault the media. ... [I]t's extremely difficult to myth-proof a bill or to effectively counter these claims once they are made. Until the media stops giving airtime and column inches to proponents of misinformation, the playbook is going to keep working.

Nyhan doesn't go quite far enough, though. The media should not only stop giving airtime and column inches to liars and the lies they tell, they should affirmatively and aggressively report the truth. And they need to do so over and over again. Once is not enough. (To those who would respond that repetition is, by definition, not "news": Are you really prepared to argue that newscasts and newspapers don't repeat the same ideas over and over again? Really?)

If news organizations want to produce health care reporting that actually has some value, some utility to their readers and viewers, they'll forget about the polls and the protests and the politics and focus on making the actual facts about health care, and efforts to change the system, as clear as they can.

I know what many journalists will say: This is how things are. Political intrigue, controversy, polling, strategy, demonstrations -- these are the things the media cover. That's how it works.

No. That's how it doesn't work. That's how we have a public that is so badly confused about health care reform that polling on the topic is basically a useless bundle of contradictory results. That's how we have a situation in which more than half of the Republican Party doesn't know Barack Obama was born in the United States. And how is this approach working for the media? Public trust in and respect for journalists is not exactly strong -- and, as I'm sure most reporters have noticed, news organizations across the country are shedding employees in a desperate struggle to stay afloat.

So who are the old ways working for?

Jamison Foser is a Senior Fellow at Media Matters for America, a progressive media watchdog and research and information center based in Washington, D.C. Foser also contributes to County Fair, a media blog featuring links to progressive media criticism from around the Web as well as original commentary. You can follow him on Twitter and Facebook or sign up to receive his columns by email.

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    • Author by terrapin53 (August 07, 2009 9:27 am ET)
      8 2
      Conservative talk radio has been driving the lies on health care reform for months and nobody, not the media, the democrats, or the whitehouse have done anything to refute the lies until this past week. The bill has been on thomas.gov for weeks, but I bet few in the press or elsewhere have bothered to download it and fact check some the crap spewed by the right. If health care loses, its the democrats fault more than anything else. I told my representatives they best get on the air and start refuting the lies from WCBM in Baltimore, but so far no answer back and I have not heard them on the radio despite the supposed invites they get from this station.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by ForTheLoveOfEllipsis... (August 07, 2009 9:33 am ET)
        4  
        The operant term, O UofMd fan, being the "supposed" invites. I have plenty of lively doubts that health-care-reform supporters are getting any actual "invites" to appear on any corporate media...
        Report Abuse
        • Author by carlileb5935 (August 08, 2009 3:35 am ET)
          4  
          Since most of their ad revenue comes from health care companies, what incentive do they have to run a fair fight?
          Report Abuse
      • Author by Appleboy (August 07, 2009 2:24 pm ET)
        11  
        Actually most of the blame goes to the media. There job almost by definition is to inform and educate the public (not entertain). The job of politicians is to make legislation. This country hasn't a clue about just how bad our media is. I would say it simply does not exist. What percent of Americans know these 4 facts:

        1) we pay twice as much as other rich nations for health care
        2) we cover only about 85% of our citizens compared to 100% for other rich natons
        3) the health care we receive is no better than in other rich nations
        4) all other rich countries have a government run health care system

        Just imagine what would happen to the health care debate if these facts were leaked to the people.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by Unreality (August 07, 2009 4:20 pm ET)
          10 1
          Not to be disingenuous, but naive Americans think you're describing some kind of "socialist state" when the reality is that these are very much capitalist societies.

          FauxNews and radio pundits have conditioned naive Americans to believe these falsehoods that parallel your 4 facts:
          1) We can afford to pay double because our standard of living and currency is so much higher
          2) The 15% don't deserve or want coverage, and most are illegal immigrants and lazy shiftless minorities (even though quite a few are like us who are under insured due to false positives and pre-existing conditions),
          3) Our healthcare is the best in the world (for the top 2-3% of income levels)
          4) ours is the only free country left and by God we'll fight to the death to keep it the way it is (even if we're impoverished, in debt, uneducated, in poor health and unable to help either our children or elderly).

          Finally, I'd not merely blame the media, but literally what has become of our system of governance. Money is more important than people. I'm an entrepreneur and capitalist, but Adam Smith feared when capitalism would have the financial clout to overwhelm democratic rule. Literally money = majority control.

          With enough money one can not only buy the media's silence, one can buy congress, buy key opinion leaders (see AEI, Heritage, Cato, and buy thugs to silence the electorate.


          Report Abuse
          • Author by Appleboy (August 07, 2009 6:11 pm ET)
            6  
            I agree mostly with what you say. The only thing I would disagree with is that I don't believe any of those health care opponents who are attending the town hall meetings know that we pay twice as much as other countries do ($6000 vs $3000 per capita). If they knew this then I think they would be a bit more unsure about their position. Money matters!
            Report Abuse
            • Author by jonknee (August 08, 2009 7:00 pm ET)
              1  
              Probably because they don't see the bills (and talk radio hasn't told them). Employer provided healthcare has hidden the cost from most of the people who have insurance.
              Report Abuse
          • Author by susanai (August 09, 2009 6:01 am ET)
            2  
            Why on earth did/do you allow that piece of rubbish [Murdoch] to run your country? I'm an Australian and believe me when I tell you most of us were so glad to be rid of him. He still manages to meddle in our politics but only just. Fox news is an abomination.
            Report Abuse
        • Author by Limit Corp. Ownership (August 08, 2009 12:24 am ET)
          4 1
          Thank you Apple...

          that was a home run. The corporate media has spent most of their time pointing out how Democrats were having trouble agreeing on this or that.
          Report Abuse
      • Author by Doug-Life (August 07, 2009 2:25 pm ET)
           
        True. Nobody knows what's in this bill, because nobody has read it. These huge networks, like Fix News & MSSNBC should put their staffs to work and actually see what's in this bill and find out why the white house wants to push it through so fast before anyone knows what it contains. All the reports on tv, from the right and left, are based on rumors, lies and other propaganda.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by McKevin (August 09, 2009 6:58 pm ET)
           
        I agree with you about the Democrats and right wing talk radio but Fosser is correct about the media. The Democrats should not have to tell people that there are no death panels. The only reason why they have to is because the media treats all points of view as equal in some lame attempt to come across as non partisan. They supposedly do not attempt to say what is right and what is wrong. Somewhere along the line they decided not to judge or even investigate whether something said was a lie. The right, having no real ethics other than to win at all costs, learned very quickly to take advantage of the media's feebleness to take on any authority to put the old adage, tell a big enough lie often enough and a lot of people will believe it, to use like it has never been used before in this country. It is sad, but we are seeing our democracy slip through our fingers as our so called journalists sip champagne and watch Rome burn. There are exceptions such as Grenwald but they are viewed as trouble makers or worse as naïve to think the system can be changed. Maybe they’re right.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by ForTheLoveOfEllipsis... (August 07, 2009 9:30 am ET)
      11 1
      So who are the old ways working for?

      That one is obvious, Mr. Foser; the old ways work perfectly for the corporate owners of the vast majority of the media who want to use "journalism" to advance their particular agendas. It works for laissez-faire "capitalists" who want government to do nothing but support shameless profiteering, no matter how many ordinary citizens are hurt by it. That is why your cri de coeur of the moment, no matter how just and how necessary to be said, must inevitably be drowned out by a corporate media horde who will fight for the "journalistic" staus quo to the last ditch and beyond...
      Report Abuse
      • Author by citizenbyright (August 07, 2009 11:02 pm ET)
        2 2
        Oh? There is very, very little in the way of "laissez-faire" in our system now. Industries have been basically writing their own legislation for many many years now. They make everyone else play by their rules, and the game is rigged in their favor. Its not hands-off Free Market at all, these buggers have no qualms about subverting government and abusing its power to write their own free-lunch tickets. They are not laissez-faire capitalists by any stretch.

        Something actually closer to a Free Market would be a vast improvement.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by carlileb5935 (August 08, 2009 3:46 am ET)
        4  
        It really cannot be stressed enough.

        It's a ginned-up game and it won't change. The media has a vested interest to trample health care reform because most of their ad revenue comes from HEALTH CARE COMPANIES.

        It sounds corny, but it's true-- the explanation for this is as easy as that. The media companies are all on the take and they are NOT going to antagonize their big-bucks sponsors.

        So, they're not going to change. By September, they will be much worse.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by DaRocketMan (August 07, 2009 9:47 am ET)
         
      The interesting bit is that the right is claiming that the liberal and 'nazi' left is confusing the public and that the administration hasn't revealed anything about the heath care bill. Conservative 'news' reports are full of people asking the questions that democrats had answers to a long ime ago. Examples are "will I still be able to use private insurance?" or "is [insert condition] going to be covered" and the truth of the matter is that it's the right that is making everything unclear, and convincing their viewers that these questions have still not been answered, when in fact they have been beaten to death.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by wesley (August 07, 2009 9:53 am ET)
      1 4
      Nice work by Foser...glad to see the old Jamison back at the keyboard.

      Clear, concise and partisan...and there's not a thing wrong with that. I'd welcome more Fosers in the media.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by The_Cat (August 07, 2009 9:55 am ET)
      3  
      Long ago American media found themselves in a race to the basement trying to appeal to the broadest market they could. It is not surprising, given their motivations for doing so, that they have not found their way back to the light yet.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by carlileb5935 (August 08, 2009 3:36 am ET)
        4 1
        As long as their sponsors are 90% health care and drug companies, they won't.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by xrayvisor (August 08, 2009 2:41 pm ET)
        1  
        because unfortunately, the majority of the nation has not seen the light - only a small few see through the haze and clutter of information as serving the media's self-interests, rather than objectively reporting what's happening. Also, just too damn lazy to focus on facts, and are sliding more and more to opinion.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by NiceguyEddie (August 07, 2009 10:37 am ET)
      7 1
      Wonderful article JF. Good work. I think you take a very balanced, objective and principled position here. (Cue the conservative dipsticks who will whine about how those things all have a liberal bias...)
      Report Abuse
    • Author by vwcat (August 07, 2009 10:42 am ET)
      8 1
      I wish I could send this column to every reporter, news outlet and pundit.
      This needs so badly to be posted on every cubical and office of the working media.
      I see nothing but, misinformation and confusion and people scared because they are not educated on the facts.
      Instead we are treated to the theater of it all.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by draftedin68 (August 07, 2009 12:31 pm ET)
      2  
      Harry's good idea - then and now.

      President Truman gave this speech just before I was born.

      Still waiting...
      Report Abuse
      • Author by ForTheLoveOfEllipsis... (August 07, 2009 12:54 pm ET)
        2  
        From that speech:
        And one of the shocking things that came to my attention when they were organizing that regiment was the number of young men who were physically unfit for service. That was a National Guard volunteer regiment, and when a man got turned down because he was physically unfit, that was not only tragic to him but it was tragic to us who wanted him to serve with us.

        No better expresssion of the need for national health insurance as a national-security concern...
        Report Abuse
    • Author by mattcable250650 (August 07, 2009 12:32 pm ET)
      5 1
      As to the ignorance on economic questions, I had a debate with someone in my local paper. He declared that the stimulus was full of pork and that that was a bad thing. I replied that he didn't know what he was talking about, another commenter challenged me to define the words "pork" and "stimulus," which I then proceeded to do (Essentially, for both of them, the end product doesn't matter anywhere near as much as the spending of money/the creation of jobs does, the only real distinction is that stimulus is only used in had times). That resulted in complete silence from both of them.
      I blame the media for this kind of ignorance. I noticed a similar cluelessness back during the stimulus debate in February. Journalists to stop trying to read minds and just get back to educating the public. You're right, polls are WAY overdone!
      Report Abuse
    • Author by steeve (August 07, 2009 12:38 pm ET)
      3  
      I'd rather have the media talk about kittens and rainbows instead. They simply don't have the ability to talk about the basic facts of health care without damaging the conversation.

      And because of that, all public opinion polls are trash. The public's opinion doesn't mean anything because the public doesn't know anything because the media doesn't tell them anything accurate.

      If the media spews bull about health care, the public will tune in to the media for their health care news. If the media talks about kittens and rainbows, the public will go elsewhere for their health care news, and wherever they go will be as good as or better than what they're getting now.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by draftedin68 (August 07, 2009 1:26 pm ET)
        4  
        Puppies `n Kittens

        I often compare many of the teleprompter-reading bobbleheads in the CCM (Corporate-Controlled Media) to ball-chasing puppies. They're cute, but they're ignorant, slobbering, wetting-themselves yappers.

        Come to think of it, they like chasing kittens too.

        Report Abuse
    • Author by Entitled (August 07, 2009 2:21 pm ET)
         
      None of the media can be trusted to provide unbiased clarity about the health care issue. The only way is to read and understand the Bill yourself. Only then can you clear about the direction our leaders are taking us. Good luck with interpreting legalese.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by mjsully099 (August 07, 2009 2:41 pm ET)
         
      To Terrapin53:

      The reason the media, democrats or the whitehouse has not refuted what you call lies - they can't because if you took the time to look in the house bill H.R. 3200 you will see much of what they are saying is true. Here are somethings to check and get your facts correct. I made it easy for you.

      This is just a sample -

      Sec. 122, Pg. 29, Lines 4-16 - YOUR HEALTH CARE WILL BE RATIONED
      Sec. 123, Pg. 30 - THERE WILL BE A GOVERNMENT COMMITTEE deciding what treatments and benefits you get.
      Sec. 142, Pg. 42 - The Health Choices Commissioner will choose your benefits for you.
      Sec. 163, Pg. 58-59 beginning at line 5 - Government will have real-time access to individual’s finances & a National ID health care card will be issued!
      Sec. 163, Pg. 59, Lines 21-24 - Government will have direct access to your bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
      Sec. 201, Pg. 72, Lines 8-14 - Government is creating an HC Exchange to bring private plans under government control.
      Sec. 1121, Pg. 239, Lines 14-24 - The government will limit and reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors, low income and poor are the ones affected.
      Sec. 431, Pg. 195, Lines 1-3 - Officers and employees of HC Administration (government) will have access to ALL Americans’ financial and personal records.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by in4md (August 07, 2009 3:09 pm ET)
         
      Lies about helth care are being spread by our current administration, by our local elected officials, and by the media including Limbaugh and Beck. Deal with it folks, we have a pack of self serving liars running our country. It has been that way for at least 30 years now. Think about the lies Reagan told, "I do not remember" BS! Then our buddy Clinton "I did not have sex with that woman" More BS! Bush, "read my lips".... and on it goes.. Gore, Kerry, Stevens, Sanford, Jefferson. The list is endless. It is too bad the alphabet media has to pander to the radical left and radio has to feed the flames of the radical right. The result is an angry and confused population. Maybe that is the intent?
      Report Abuse
      • Author by mary59 (August 09, 2009 4:08 pm ET)
        1  
        This seems like a superficial rendition of what goes on, IMO. The confusion in the mass mind runs deep, but unless you pinpoint more specifically who's getting screwed, and who's doing the screwing (thanks Molly Ivins) you're just blowing smoke too.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by whatsLeft-thatsRight (August 07, 2009 3:22 pm ET)
      1  
      Remember the old grainy Frankenstein movie where the angry “towns people” with pitchforks and torches stormed the Castle?

      I think I saw their descendants in Tampa last evening.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by Cheney2012 (August 07, 2009 3:28 pm ET)
      2 12
      Hmm..nothing here about the Union THUGGERY from last night. It's all on film so not much chance for you liars to distort anything.

      Make no mistake Mr. Obama is inciting violence with his speeches.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by Hasa Diga Eebowai (August 07, 2009 8:51 pm ET)
        6 2
        Why is it thuggery to counter thuggish behavior by the right-wingers? What's good for the goose is good for the gander. If you don't like it, then shut up and let a meaningful debate happen.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by citizenbyright (August 07, 2009 10:39 pm ET)
          1 6
          "...shut up and let a meaningful debate happen."


          Priceless :)
          Report Abuse
          • Author by Cheney2012 (August 08, 2009 8:51 am ET)
            2 9
            This is the key. The left wants us to 'shut up and take it'

            That hasn;t happened and they are now in full panic.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by foghornleghorn (August 08, 2009 12:33 pm ET)
              7 1
              No, we just want YOU to shut up. No, I take that back. Please keep talking/posting because the true Americans need to know what the terrorists are up to.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by Tbone Slickens (August 08, 2009 6:32 pm ET)
                  5
                Wow...we're terrorists now? Just drop a line to Barry's snitch line in the WH to add to his political enemies list.

                Funny how how the left is all for organization as long as the "message" is right eh Fog?
                Report Abuse
                • Author by mary59 (August 09, 2009 12:14 am ET)
                  2  
                  Please highlight anything that Barack Obama has said that is inciting violence.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by Tbone Slickens (August 09, 2009 12:58 pm ET)
                      1
                    Please highlight anything that I've posted claiming Obamanation has said inciting violence...
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by mary59 (August 09, 2009 2:06 pm ET)
                      1  
                      You were commenting as an add-on to "Cheney"s brain dead post: "Make no mistake Mr. Obama is inciting violence with his speeches."

                      Your idea of an Obama enemies list is just as preposterous as well. That's just a projection, because that's what Nixon did.
                      Report Abuse
            • Author by xrayvisor (August 08, 2009 2:46 pm ET)
              3  
              conservatives had their chance at running this nation - don't boo-hoo now - but that's all the repubs have done since Obama took office is cry, whine and moan - all the while standing in the way of anything proposed by this administration - not based on merit, but simply based on partisan opposition - there is a clear pattern for anyone with eyes to see.
              Report Abuse
          • Author by citizenbyright (August 08, 2009 12:53 pm ET)
              5
            I chery-picked that just as a blunt statement.

            No meaningful debate can happen when the group is disrupted and discussion of the issues is halted. That much is obvious.

            Whats also obvious, is that a 'meaningful debate' must include opposing views, else it is neither meaninfull nor is it a debate.

            Both sides are a bit,,, off.

            Report Abuse
            • Author by Vincenzo (August 08, 2009 10:21 pm ET)
              1  
              Obviously using your conservative powers of taking things out of context. Do you want a cookie? How exactly do you have a MEANINGFUL debate in a townhall when a rehearsed mob is shouting down -everyone-? Hopefully some day you and others will pull your heads out of the sand, but I doubt it.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by citizenbyright (August 09, 2009 5:27 pm ET)
                   
                No meaningful debate can happen when the group is disrupted and discussion of the issues is halted. That much is obvious.


                Whats also obvious, is that a 'meaningful debate' must include opposing views, else it is neither meaningful nor is it a debate.


                There is what I actually said,,, now, what are you talking about? Do yuou even know? Do you only read until a word you don't like makes your knee jerk, and then run with your imaginary ball towards some imaginary goalpost?



                Report Abuse
            • Author by mary59 (August 09, 2009 12:16 am ET)
              3  
              Both sides of what? There is a side that would like a civil discourse, and a side that wants disruption, ugliness and deliberate silencing of any attempt by officials to address healthcare.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by citizenbyright (August 09, 2009 3:25 am ET)
                   
                I was speaking generally to the side that wants health care reform vs. the side that does not.

                My own position on all that is a bit more complicated, (and I have hardly fleshed it out on these threads) I actually want serious reform. The whole system is completely screwed up, but I have little-to-no faith in this or any other Administration/Congress to actually do what needs to be done, without giving us something just as bad or worse in another direction.

                I understand the point you are making, assuredly. I just don't happen to believe that the meetings those against are disrupting actually represent any bona-fide civil discourse, much less any citizen-involved democratic process. I think they are more akin to sound-byte sessions and political infomercials pitching for pre-orders of a mysterious wonder product that hasn't even been revealed yet, much less peer reviewed.
                Report Abuse
        • Author by Limit Corp. Ownership (August 08, 2009 12:33 am ET)
          6  
          Right,
          Removing some nutcase who's destroying a Town Hall Meeting is now "thuggery."

          Report Abuse
          • Author by BobsYourUncle (August 08, 2009 11:22 am ET)
            2  
            These meeting vandals could learn something from the anti war protesters,

            http://www.milehighnews.com/1editorialbody.lasso?-token.folder=2003-03-27&-token.story=43459.12&-nothing

            Sure you can voice your point of view but you don;t have to destroy the meeting and if you do you will be arrested....
            Report Abuse
        • Author by Cheney2012 (August 08, 2009 8:50 am ET)
          2 9
          There was no Thiggish behavior until the Obama union mobsters showed up.

          People were trying to get answers from their representatives about healthcare. When they were being continually stonewalled and lied to by theose reps they were getting angry.

          It was not Thuggish. Nobody was under any threat of physical harm as we have seen perpetrated from the left the last few days.

          (ask Claire McCaskill -- she disagrees with Gibbs/Obama/Pelosi)
          Report Abuse
          • Author by foghornleghorn (August 08, 2009 12:33 pm ET)
            7 1
            There was no Thiggish behavior until the Obama union mobsters showed up.

            Liar.
            Report Abuse
          • Author by albertsenj (August 10, 2009 3:58 am ET)
            2  
            It would be easier to buy your claim that these folks were just trying to get answers if it weren't for the fact that they are showing up with pre-written talking points and instructions to start yelling at the representative early; stand up, shout and then sit down; spread out through the room to maximize the impact of the disruption, etc.

            That isn't people who want to hear answers - they just want to shut the meeting down.

            Report Abuse
      • Author by ForTheLoveOfEllipsis... (August 07, 2009 10:48 pm ET)
        7  
        Saw it, CheneyIQ12; and what I saw was that the thuggery came from the teabaggers...
        Report Abuse
      • Author by xrayvisor (August 08, 2009 2:43 pm ET)
        1  
        How is Obama inciting violence - are you for real????
        Report Abuse
      • Author by Don Hussein Fabuloso (August 09, 2009 2:12 pm ET)
        3  
        the Union THUGGERY [is] all on film so not much chance for you liars to distort anything (Dick.12)

        Have you seen the video, Cheney? It's on Youtube, and at another item at this site. It looks like initial reports by the media were the ones distorting things. Unless you have a very, very unique definition of thuggery.

        Report Abuse
    • Author by insaneloki20024664 (August 07, 2009 3:37 pm ET)
      2 12
      Two points...

      1. How is it reform? They are just adding another option claiming it won't add to the deficit yet it will trillions of dollars we don't have to start.

      2. Why is it every time conservatives protest it is seen as intimidation and an impediment to the democratic process. Yet when liberals and liberal groups protest it is seen as enlightening and an excellent showing of what America is all about.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by foghornleghorn (August 07, 2009 6:04 pm ET)
        10 1
        How come all your questions never make any sense?

        Don't forget your free bumper sticker:

        PROFITS OVER PEOPLE
        Report Abuse
        • Author by bm25m (August 07, 2009 6:55 pm ET)
             
          It basicly comes down to....
          Democrats are Bought and Paid for...
          Republicans are Bought and Paid for...
          We are all mad because we can not control which company/orgainization is going to control our lives next. Once someone tells us what is going on... Well we will follow that lead.

          Everyone can admit to this fact, because we are not the ones paying them (Remember, they get to vote how they pay themselves)
          Report Abuse
        • Author by Cheney2012 (August 08, 2009 8:46 am ET)
          1 8
          I have a better one:

          PEOPLE OVER PROGRESSIVES
          Report Abuse
          • Author by xrayvisor (August 08, 2009 2:49 pm ET)
            3  
            as deceptive and insulting as your screen-name would suggest
            Report Abuse
          • Author by mary59 (August 09, 2009 12:21 am ET)
            4 1
            Wow. Pretty deep. In other words, "people" take precedence over....people. Yep, that really makes sense in an insane, illogical way.
            Report Abuse
      • Author by Limit Corp. Ownership (August 08, 2009 12:37 am ET)
        6 3
        Point #1 - You don't know what you're talking about. The bill is paid for. IT WON'T INCREASE THE DEFICIT.

        Point #2 - Makes absolutely no sense. So, I figure you're a conservative.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by Tbone Slickens (August 09, 2009 6:12 am ET)
          1  
          The bill is paid for. IT WON'T INCREASE THE DEFICIT.


          The CBO doesn't agree with you:

          According to CBO’s and JCT’s assessment, enacting H.R. 3200 would result in a net increase in the federal budget deficit of $239 billion over the 2010-2019 period.


          CBO

          Is the CBO wrong?
          Report Abuse
          • Author by steeve (August 09, 2009 9:06 am ET)
            4 1
            No. It's just that we're not much worried about a ten-year guess that's less than Bush's bailout.

            We'll raise the top tax rate by a tenth of a percent if we need to cover something.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by Tbone Slickens (August 09, 2009 1:01 pm ET)
                2
              The claim was it wouldn't add to the deficit. I don't think Barry, even on a Beer Summit day, would claim that this will not add to the deficit. As for raising the rate...good luck with that.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by mary59 (August 09, 2009 4:17 pm ET)
                3  
                T-bone, how 'bout cutting a war out? Health care, not warfare.
                Report Abuse
              • Author by steeve (August 09, 2009 6:04 pm ET)
                   
                There are so many events that will cause it to not add to the deficit -- such as the economy outperforming Bush's, or liberals finally figuring out how to cut defense spending six years from now -- that it's not worth discussing.

                If all you want to do is catch the original poster in a technical violation, then never mind.
                Report Abuse
          • Author by didi (August 09, 2009 12:55 pm ET)
            2  
            Gee Whiz.... 239 Billion over 10 years equals less than .4% of the expenditures of the Defense Department.

            How bout we cut a war out!
            Report Abuse
            • Author by Tbone Slickens (August 09, 2009 1:02 pm ET)
              3  
              How bout we cut a war out!


              The best advice I've seen on this forum all summer!
              Report Abuse
    • Author by papa bear3 (August 07, 2009 4:52 pm ET)
        1
      The only media we have to present the facts to the people is Jon Stewart, Steven Colbert, Rachel Maddow, Bill Maher and they are preaching to the choir. The rest, like Kieth Olberman seem to be decaying into FOX-like antics. Maddow's presentations the last two nights about Corporate funding for the anti-healthcare crowd are Edward R. Morrow level.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by proudconservative (August 07, 2009 8:17 pm ET)
      3 12
      Read this and find out why the democrat leadership was hoping to slip this through in just a hurry.

      And if this is so important now, how come the president is on the sidelines when it comes to writing the bill?
      Report Abuse
      • Author by Hasa Diga Eebowai (August 07, 2009 8:49 pm ET)
        7 2
        And if this is so important now, how come the president is on the sidelines when it comes to writing the bill?
        Ever heard of separation of powers? Bush could barely read or write and yet I never heard anyone criticizing him for not personally authoring legislation. Is the standard higher for Obama because of he's hyper-intelligent?
        Report Abuse
        • Author by proudconservative (August 07, 2009 10:48 pm ET)
          3 9
          dew-bee,

          How about the times when president obama was uncertain what was in the bill? Remember this exchange with a democrat blogger?

          During the call, a blogger from Maine said he kept running into an Investors Business Daily article that claimed Section 102 of the House health legislation would outlaw private insurance. He asked: "Is this true? Will people be able to keep their insurance and will insurers be able to write new policies even though H.R. 3200 is passed?" President Obama replied: "You know, I have to say that I am not familiar with the provision you are talking about."




          I'd say that's at least one aspect he should have know about because his staff would have been working with congress to put into law the things he believes in. He's either completely out of the loop or deceitful.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by Limit Corp. Ownership (August 08, 2009 12:42 am ET)
            5 2
            Proudcon,
            Maybe the President simply didn't want to answer some wingnut who didn't know what he was talking about?
            Report Abuse
            • Author by proudconservative (August 08, 2009 10:32 pm ET)
              1 2
              The gentleman was identified as part of a meeting with democrat bloggers and supporters.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by mary59 (August 09, 2009 12:25 am ET)
                1 1
                There isn't any "democrat blogger."
                Further, there isn't any bill yet. There are a number of proposals, and to pretend otherwise is disengenuous. I doubt that You've read all the variations. By the time there's an actual bill, Obama will have read all the provisions.
                Report Abuse
            • Author by Don Hussein Fabuloso (August 09, 2009 2:07 pm ET)
              2  
              Simpler: Obama had no way of knowing about a provision that didn't exist. The bizarre idea that by being more directly involved with the bill, he would have been aware of a fictitious part of the bill is too ridiculous to discuss.
              Report Abuse
          • Author by tjmccool2284 (August 08, 2009 1:59 am ET)
            7 1
            I'd say that's at least one aspect he should have know about because his staff would have been working with congress to put into law the things he believes in. He's either completely out of the loop or deceitful.

            You assert that but why shouldthe president or his staff be working with Congress on specific language at this point. Obama has been hands off this bill from the beginning. You could have said "one would think..." or "maybe the president should..." but instead, you make a baseless assertion and then the usual he's out of the loop or deceitful... I don't know, maybe you are one or both?
            Report Abuse
            • Author by truthinthough (August 08, 2009 10:36 pm ET)
                 
              Maybe he shouldn't be pushing something that he has nothing to do with then...
              Report Abuse
            • Author by proudconservative (August 08, 2009 10:37 pm ET)
              1 1
              Obama has yet to answer the question or clarify what is in the bill. For him to say he didn't know about such a significant point, that only feeds the contensciousness that abounds because no one seems to be willing to either read or say what the bill contains.

              Guess what, conservatives don't trust government, especially ones that are attempting to railroad significant changes in our country without at least providing the particulars.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by mary59 (August 09, 2009 12:28 am ET)
                3 1
                There is no bill. There is not a bill. "The bill" is not yet manifested.
                You have no clue. You are clueless. Study how a bill becomes a law.
                Report Abuse
        • Author by xrayvisor (August 08, 2009 2:51 pm ET)
             
          EXACTLY - legislators write and pass legislation (i.e., laws) - those powers are not imbued in the executive branch - but I can see how one would forget after the Bush/Cheney administration, who seemed to think that supreme legislative authority came with office
          Report Abuse
      • Author by citizenbyright (August 07, 2009 9:47 pm ET)
        3 2
        (Note first off that this is not even the final product, AND note that even the final one will contain further Authority given to promulgate Regulations, aouto-inclusion of Amendments, etc etc)

        Unbelievable. Anyone know what "grade-level" that piece of legislative excrement was written at?

        Perhaps there are a small handfull here who have actually read and think they actually understand that, but the average American? No way. Absolutely, positively no way.

        Oh, and yes, Separation of Powers. The President cannot legislate over the 50 States.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by citizenbyright (August 07, 2009 10:38 pm ET)
          1 1
          This piece in the LA Times spells some aspects of it out reasonably well.

          "The prospects for incremental improvement are still reasonably good," said Geoff Garin, a Democratic pollster close to the congressional leadership. "But there's a lot more realism about how hard this is."


          Report Abuse
      • Author by albertsenj (August 10, 2009 4:09 am ET)
           
        Why don't YOU read it and get back to the folks who are pushing things that aren't true:
        1) the elderly will be subject to euthanasia or mandatory end-of-life counseling ( euthanasia just ain't in there and while MediCare will be required to PAY FOR end-of-life counseling, there is NO requirement that the elderly receive the counseling)
        2) private insurance will be outlawed (no, insurers won't be able to issue new INDIVIDUAL - as opposed to group - policies which don't meet minimal standards)

        I'm sure that you're interested in squelching disinformation where ever it is, right?
        Report Abuse
    • Author by carlileb5935 (August 08, 2009 3:41 am ET)
      3  
      "It's pretty clear now that that 71 percent figure means much less than it seems, isn't it?"

      It's worse than that. If a poll said 71 percent of people were concerned and would attend a town hall, the MSM would immediately claim that meant 71 percent were against the Democratic plan.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by mikehuck1976 (August 08, 2009 11:48 am ET)
      6  
      We've seen all these crazies yelling about "I want my country back". These are all reruns from the Sarah Palin rallies. They lost. Get over it. If you really want to make change then you're gonna have to get more people on your side to actually, you know - win elections.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by Beegowl (August 08, 2009 12:03 pm ET)
      1  
      Tom Wolfe wrote about manipulation of the media in his novel "Bonfire of the Vanities" and this seems to fit his description. A small coterie of extremely vocal individuals can divert attention from the reality of the issues to their disruptive activities. The distortion of reality that TV video provides make the small look large. The media falls for the manipulation because it provides good video content and, of course, the Republicans keep the truth from emerging on primetime because the nitty gritty issues of providing affordable health care for Americans do not make for good TV.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by skippersmom (August 08, 2009 12:38 pm ET)
      5  
      There doesn't seem to be an effective way for the individual to demand the media adhere to this kind of reporting. I suppose they owe their first allegiance to the corporate owners and secondly to the audiance. Apparently there is still more of an appetite for the he said/she said bickering that goes on morning to night or those who want more are silent. Crap reporting is so prevalent both in cable and network that it would seem hardly anyone would be willing to go to quality straight reporting for fear they would lose ratings. It would seem like the viewer has a personal responsibility not to treat the news as entertainment also. Isn't anyone out there willing to admit there is plenty of real news to be upset and concerned about without having to have it falsely presented so we can get a good buzz railing about the opposition?
      Report Abuse
      • Author by xrayvisor (August 08, 2009 2:57 pm ET)
           
        here, here... well-put... there is a lesson of individual responsibility in all this - TV is lazy, and is beholden to it's corporate sponsors, who have an interest in spinning news to benefit either their clients OR their own sub-companies. Meanwhile, the American people are getting dumber and dumber about issues, and the media is largely guilty of contributing to that ignorance.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by steeve (August 09, 2009 9:00 am ET)
           
        There's really nothing to do but turn it off and keep it off and teach others to do the same.

        Four or so years ago the media could have brought down the presidency with basic journalism. So the media has nothing to do with sensationalism or ratings.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by juliajayne1 (August 09, 2009 12:01 pm ET)
          2  
          I turned off the tv net and cable shows years ago when they were getting rid of shows like Phil Donahue, solely because he was anti war. Same thing for Ashley Banfield. That indicated to me that there was no inherent integrity on TV, apart from Bill Moyers and a few select others.
          Report Abuse
    • Author by Stevejb (August 08, 2009 2:17 pm ET)
      1  
      It would be nice to see the media cover any govenment story without bias or a lack of detail. Polls don't help me to make an informed decision, they try to influnce how I should think. By constantly referring to polls the media is trying to shift public sentiment. Both ends of the political spectrum are guilty of this.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by MikeW67 (August 08, 2009 2:29 pm ET)
         
      While major commerical media won't report it, there is a lot of word now on the Internet about the staged health care protests. I think the bully tactics and blatant refusal to allow clearly needed progress on a domestic issue, is in the process of backfiring on the corrupt GOP.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by Barnacle Bill the Sailor (August 08, 2009 9:57 pm ET)
        1
      Why should we fix the healthcare system when it isn't broken?
      I wish the politician/scum would leave it alone. All Politicians=Scum.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by SkamperCamper (August 09, 2009 12:01 am ET)
      1 4
      Republicans are entitled to Freedom of Speech just like everybody else. And it wouldn't hurt to hear the truth once in a while. Thank God for FOX NEWS!

      Report Abuse
      • Author by mary59 (August 09, 2009 2:02 pm ET)
        4 1
        Republicans are entitled, so they think, by God, to scuttle discussions by acting like thugs and using violent rhetoric. Should be interesting when these "righteous" people actually have to meet their Maker.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by Don Hussein Fabuloso (August 09, 2009 2:04 pm ET)
        4 1
        Some of us would rather hear the truth all of the time. For those of you who only want it once in a while, there's Fox News. Thank God.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by citizenbyright (August 09, 2009 8:02 pm ET)
        2  
        Hmm, if only Fox hadn't gone to Court and WON it's "Right" to intentionally LIE to the Public and fire reporters who try to do their jobs.

        FOX News, BGH (Bovine Growth Hormone), Monsanto, Florida.

        Look it up for yourself.

        Whoever you'd like to thank for FOX News, you can start somewhere in the depths of Hell and end somewhere in a corporate corner office.

        The hand behind its existence stops far, far short of God.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by joseph_b26 (August 09, 2009 4:49 pm ET)
      1  
      We Should Be Concerned About MSNBC's Attacks on Obama

      From the Ed show to Rachael Madow, MSNBC is covering the whole political spectrum with anti Obama commentary. They provide a complete picture of the political atmosphere. Lately, they have been taken pot shots at Barack Obama's entire support structure.

      The Ed Show:

      Day after day, Ed Schultz complains about how Obama is loosing his liberal base. He does this enough to put a serious dent in Obama's liberal support. By itself, it looks harmless; however, when you look at the total attacks lunched against Obama, there is cause for concern.

      Polls Polls Polls

      If you say it often enough, it will stick. This is the approach being done with the use of selective polls by Chris Matthews and others at MSNBC. Take a look at the Quinnipiac U. poll. What you find is that Matthews is using this poll to promote Obama's decline in public support The real truth is that it is the lowest out of the first ten polls listed. Why would Matthews and others at MSNBC use only this poll troubles me.


      Give It To Me Now

      It appears Obama is not working fast enough for Racheal Maddow. She wants Obama to change the status of the Gay people now. Right now. Or, night after night, this happen in May and June, Obama has been the butt of many complaints he is not for filling his campaign promises.

      My point is clear, when you look at the entire coverage provided for Obama at MSNBC, you can see it has dangerous potential. There will me more to come concerning this sudden all out attack on the Obama administration by the media. Especially the attacks by MSNBC.

      Joseph

      Report Abuse
      • Author by didi (August 09, 2009 7:23 pm ET)
           
        The Ed Show:

        OK First off the Ed Show is pounding Obama because he allowed congress to pollute the healthcare legislation with industry favors. Obama should have stepped in to reign them in. Should Obama just sit back and let the legislation be taken over by the lobbyists?

        Polls Polls Polls

        The Quinnipiac U poll was just the most current one. Had one of the others been more current they would have reported that one. I think you're being too defensive

        Give It To Me Now

        Obama has backed off his don't ask don't tell pledge completely while his administration has cited members of the military not being ready to handle the change. I strongly doubt Obama will ever get their approval to scrap don't ask don't tell. Remember, these are the same type of soldiers that had to be forced to integrate the military.

        your point

        Don't expect a fair media to be supportive of Obama 100% of the time. It's not an all out attack. For the most part MSNBC supports the Obama agenda. But Obama needs to stick his neck out and fulfill his promises.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by neighborm (August 09, 2009 5:00 pm ET)
         
      One thing the media might do is cast aside the assumption that if health reform fails, things will remain the same. Just look at the retirement landscape. With the exception of the the public sector and unions, defined benefit pension plans are fast disappearing. While I'm not comparing defined benefit pensions to health care, it is clear that as pension plans became more costly to maintain and alternatives became available, these defined benefit plans would fade away.

      If health care reform does not occur and health care plans become more costly, what do you think businesses will do? They will continue to shift costs to employees: deductibles will become much greater (health savings accounts), coverage of spouses and children will diminish, percentages of benefit costs paid by employees will increase, as will the share of premium costs. I'd like someone to provide some projections, say over the next 5 to 10 years, to show what is likely if there is no reform. If people who feel that health reform will rob them of their current benefits, perhaps they need to comprehend what those current benefits will be like in the future. I don't think they would be shouting down reform if they understood what is in it for them a few years ahead.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by carlo1993 (August 09, 2009 8:00 pm ET)
      1  
      The MSM is largely to blame for misinterpreting the debate for the public, but let's face it- the Repubs have played this one beautifully. They appeal to the fundamental selfishness of human nature to convince those who have good and/or secure coverage that
      "you will give something up" to cover the uninsured.
      This is how alleged Democrat Chris Matthews spun the issue in 1993: An undeserved entitlement for the uninsured.
      Most people don't see the argument that when some homeless guy with double pnuenomia wanders into a Chicago emergency room and ends up catabolizing 5M worth of health care in two weeks, the hospital swallows the cost of that care. The overhead for this uncompensated care gets passed on to everyone- doctors, pharma companies, insurers, the government, and ultimately consumers. Near-universal coverage means tremendous cost savings, and you absolutely "do not" need to be altruistic to see this argument.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by albertsenj (August 10, 2009 4:15 am ET)
      1  
      Something that isn't being reported on is the effect of disconnecting health-care coverage from employment. If this can be accomplished it will add liquidity to the labor market. That means that people will be able to leave a job without worrying about losing their health insurance. In addition, employers will be better able to add employees as they won't have to factor in the cost of health insurance.

      I have seen no figures that factor this into the calculations.
      Report Abuse