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Jamison Foser
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Why we need the media to focus on the facts

August 13, 2009 9:06 am ET

In a conversation earlier this week about polls showing that large numbers of Republicans don't believe Barack Obama was born in the United States, I wondered how many of those respondents might not know that Hawaii is a state. That wasn't a shot at Republicans; I just think people in general know less about their country than we tend to assume.

The next day, The Washington Independent's David Weigel -- whose birther coverage has been indispensable -- pointed out a new poll showing that 8 percent of North Carolinians (and 11 percent of McCain voters in North Carolina) either think Hawaii is not part of the U.S. or are not sure.

Think about that for a minute. One in 10 McCain voters in North Carolina doesn't know that Hawaii is part of the U.S.

Does that surprise you? It shouldn't.

The simple fact is that a heck of a lot of Americans don't know much about their country or the basics of how government works.

In 2007, the Pew Research Center found that 31 percent of Americans could not name the current vice president. Fifty-one percent could not identify Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi. Twenty-four percent did not know which political party controlled the House of Representatives -- just months after Democrats took control, when the information should have been fresh in people's minds.

My favorite example of the fact that a great many people don't know the basics is the poll that showed that during then-Speaker of the House Tom Foley's unsuccessful 1994 re-election campaign, 30 percent of his constituents thought that if Republican George Nethercutt defeated Foley, Nethercutt would become speaker. Given that Nethercutt eked out a win with 51 percent of the vote, it isn't at all hard to imagine that Foley might have been re-elected had voters understood the clout their district stood to lose by replacing him. (Of course, Foley wouldn't have remained speaker anyway, as Republicans won control of Congress.)

If so many voters are wrong about basics like whether Hawaii is part of the U.S. and whether the representative from Washington's 5th Congressional District is automatically the speaker of the House, imagine how little they must know about complex public policy questions.

To be clear: Much of this ignorance is not the result of stupidity, and it is not the result of lack of interest. The details of public policy are quite complex. The vast majority of Americans simply don't have the time or the resources to develop a clear and thorough understanding of Medicare reimbursement rates, nuclear proliferation policy, the intricacies of the tax code, and the hundreds of other topics that affect their lives. That is, after all, one of the reasons we elect representatives.

Even citizens who make a significant effort to educate themselves about a given topic are unlikely to succeed. Give most people a week to read a 700-page piece of legislation, and they're no more likely to understand it than I am likely to be able to fly the space shuttle after reading an operating manual. And for precisely the same reason: These are highly technical things, requiring a great deal of specialized knowledge to properly understand.

Most people do not possess that specialized knowledge. Most people do not fully understand their own health care plan -- so why on Earth would we think they would know anything about health care policy and proposed insurance reforms, even if they had read some legislation (which, of course, 99.9 percent of them have not)?

Now, this doesn't have to be a problem -- which is great, because it's pretty much unavoidable. We choose a government to represent our interests, and we look to another institution, the media, to help us understand the issues well enough to make decisions about who should represent us.

Obviously, there are a few kinks in that system.

One of those kinks -- one that doesn't get much attention -- is the extent to which the media (and politicians and the people who work for them) overrate the amount of knowledge most voters have about politics and policy. You see it when they use insider jargon and acronyms in their reporting, assuming readers and viewers know what they mean. Do they? Do they really know what FISA is? Pay-Go? "Judicial activism"?

This overestimation of how much knowledge most people possess is one of the causes of the media's failure to clearly and consistently report the facts about health care. They don't understand how necessary it is. They think they can focus on horse-race political coverage of the debate. They think if they report the facts once, that's often enough. They think the fact that people are satisfied with their health insurance tells us something about the quality and reliability of that insurance -- though it clearly doesn't.

So the public, which -- again, understandably -- doesn't know much about a complex policy and lacks the time and resources to find out for itself, is exposed to a nonstop barrage of spin, misinformation, and outright lies about health care. And the media, overestimating how much people actually know, don't think they have to make the facts clear every day, over and over again. Is it really any wonder that people believe things that aren't true? Do we really need to relive the run-up to the Iraq war all over again?

Jamison Foser is a Senior Fellow at Media Matters for America, a progressive media watchdog and research and information center based in Washington, D.C. Foser also contributes to County Fair, a media blog featuring links to progressive media criticism from around the Web as well as original commentary. You can follow him on Twitter and Facebook or sign up to receive his columns by email.

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    • Author by Cheney2012 (August 13, 2009 10:09 am ET)
      4 13
      Foser here seems to be advocating that the media report the 'facts' as people of his political persuasion view them.

      And then the people will feel safe enough to simply turn over decision-making to the technocrats with Foser's point of view. Since "The details of public policy are quite complex."

      The problem is, they don't need to be that complex. Politicians and government officals have created that complexity to serve their own interests. They exempt themselves from all the complex rules and regulations they create.

      In reality, the health care issue is very simple: If I get sick I go to the doctor and get treated. People don't want the government between them and their doctors. They also don't like the insurance companies in the midddle. But given the choice a majority would take the insurance company. They certainly don't to compound a problem by inviting government in.

      And before you ask, I would argue most younger people would say: "Yes, we need a better system than Medicare, but how do you just end it tomorrow?" You can't. Furthermore they might also say taking care of all the poor and especially the elderly is somthing the government should do and we'll pay for it. But just leave everyone else alone.

      It's really that simple. It is only made complex by the politicians who crave power over people's lives. That is what this whole 'protest' is about.

      The left either doesn't understand that or refuses to acknowledge it.
      Report Abuse
        • Author by Cheney2012 (August 13, 2009 11:28 am ET)
          3 13
          Niceguy:

          Wipe the spittle off your monitor please.

          I am not for the status quo. The system is indeed broken. The reason? Gov't involvement. We need less of it.

          There is a problem of increasing costs of health care and health insurance. This is caused by over-regulation by the government and a high-percentage of the government-insured being treated for lowball reimbursements. This has been going on now for 45 years. Isn't it time to try something else? When the government has screwed it up, we don't hand it over to them.

          What do you think has caused the increase in prices? How do you propose to keep them down? Less treatment? Fewer procedures?

          Hint: Greed is not a sufficient answer.

          I've had several tests and received several bills and paid for them out of pocket. None have been even clos to $5,000 or $10,000. I am sure that is quite rare. I am paying out-of-pocket for some of these tests now because to keep the premium reasonable my plan -- which I didn't buy -- has high deductibles.

          Here is the reform I want. All my health expenses -- care and insurance premiums -- are tax free AND it is a tax deduction for employers. However, instead of my employer shopping for insurance for me they give me the money they would spend and I in turn shop for the insurance I want. Maybe it covers EVRYTHING right down to cough medicine. Maybe it is just hospitalizations, and catastrophic illness. As part of this, the state I live in will have to allow for all types of policies to be written and allow us to be grouped across state lines. Maybe the Congress can claim this is Interstate Commerce and forbid states from regulating it. Now that would actually be CONSTITUTIONAL. And I have shopped around before, and it isn't pretty. But the point is, this reform will completely change the marketplace. There will be more choices.

          What I don't spend on insurance goes into an interest-bearing account and I pay for office vists, prescriptions and whatever else my family needs.

          By my calculations between myself and my employer we have spent $40,000 in the last 3 years on insurance premiums for myself and my family of 4. We probably have actually incurred $15,000 in actual expenses and that includes two hospital stays for my wife giving birth. And yes, I have seen the bills. Here is where you and I probably AGREE: The insurance compnanies are ripping us off!!!

          In our adult lifetimes, my wife and I and our employers have paid about $150,000 in premiums. I'll say for the sake of argument we have spent $50,000 on care, but that is very high estimate. It is probably much less than that.

          We keep the other $100,000-plus for future expenses and that amount grows in a health-savings account. Now maybe when we get older and medical costs increase perhaps Medicare has a place to augment the expensive years. But shouldn't we means test that, too? As I stated, it may be good public policy to protect the elderly. But if we reform the system for the young we won't be looking at a $74 trillion unfunded liability that we are currently on the hook for. (btw, this links to the WSJ, but they cite Medicare Trustees as the source)

          Why isn't my suggested reform better than the current system and better than a government takeover? I guarantee costs will be kept in check when people are actually paying the bills with their own money. I can't be denied coverage as I can pay for some of it out of my account

          Look at car insurance. My bill has gone up about $6 over four years. That is well below the rate of inflation. The reason? I have more options in where I spend my money. There is no free market in health insurance.

          The reason the left is against this is because it takes away the power they can exercise over peoples lives. And that is exactly what this debate is all about. Providing health care or health insurance is simply the vehicle for this debate.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by NiceguyEddie (August 13, 2009 12:22 pm ET)
            9  
            [Monitor has now been wiped clean]

            You make some good points...

            There is one area where we agree: All health care expenses should be tax-free/tax deductible. Let's do that and scrap these unecessarily complicated personal health care savings accounts. Don't make me GUESS what I'm goign to spend, ahead of time, just let me deduct it afterwards. I'm with 100% with you there.

            I'm also with you on the low-ball (medicaid) reimbursments causing problems for everyone else. I'm all for any given procedure being paid for at the same rate / priced the same regardless of who's recieveing it, or who's paying for it, gov't, ins. co. or an uninsured citizen.

            There is a huge underlying flaw in your overall philosphy however. You talk about options, but really all this means is a trade off between premium cost and out of pocket expenses. This is a bogus trade-off. It doesn't work out for most people in the long run, and if people can pick-and-chose the coverage they want, you lose the risk-pooling benefit of the healthy subsodixing the sick. And so the cost of GOOD coverage goes up more and more as more people risk medical mankrupcy (assuming nothing bad will ever happen to THEM) just to same a few bucks on a premium that would otherwise be priced pretty well if you could only get EVERYONE into it. (Which is the crux of the benefit a single-payer system!)

            You're idea of having the emplyer pay you more in salary, instead of buying the insurance, is interesting, but also flawed. (1) The only way for insurance co's to offer reasonably priced plans is to pool risk. By going alone you will always pay more than your employer did previously, regardless of how many "options" you might have out there. You will pay more, or you will sacrifice coverage. That's inevitable. What's more, it doesn't address what happens if you lose your job, nor does it do anything for people not currenlty getting heath care from their employer.

            Here's my proposal:

            1) The Gov't defines coverage terms. Basically? Everyone & everything is covered, either 100% or with a small ~$20 co-pay just to deter some idiot going to the ER for a hangnail. And no, I wouldn't cover elective/non-reconstuctive cosmetive surgery; I wouldn't cover any 'alternative medicine' (which is all BS anyway!); and I'd be sorely tempted to exclude lifestyle drugs (Cyalis/Viagra?) but maybe could be persuded to. Abortion would be covered. (If you don't like that, grow up.) And mental health would get the same level of coverage as everything else. There's no reason to treat the brain any differently from any other organ that has something go wrong with it. (Currently most Ins.Co shaft mental health drugs big time.)

            2) The program will be managed by the insurance companies, much the way they do now. They will bid to cover people, and bill the gov't for this. They will be required to reimburse doctors/hospitals at a level that (for example) insures that any given person will have a choice of at least three doctors within 50 miles of their home (100 miles in rural areas) that will perform a given test or procedure at no additional cost to the patient. Doctors can still charge more, if they think the marlket will bear it, but the differecne will have to be paid by the patient. But the standard payment will have to be enough to make sure I have at least three Doctors to choose from with no additional expense.

            3) The gov't will pay the insurance bills with increased taxes. These taxes will be offset by the fact that we're no longer paying premiums. This new tax would then be structure such that most people's take home pay would not be affected + or -. A corprate tax increase will be levied such that the revenue generated will be the same as what is currenlty being paid in premiums. (So revenue-neutral) The differece is that in the form of a tax, it will not have to be paid by stugglig firms (who would otherwiss still have a fixed HC cost) and more of the bill will be footed by companies doing well. (Who could just as easily have a tough year next year, and be in the other boat themsleves.)

            4) Cost are controlled automatically: Doctors will charge what the market bears, but will have an incentive to be among those that are "free" to the patiant. Insurance comapnies will be in competiton with each other to bid new citizens to cover. Free market principals apply, but will be used to insure coverage, as well as control cost.

            Now... this isn't what Obama is proposing. Far from it. It's my own proposal. Let me know why my suggested reform isn't better than the current system and better than your suggested reform. (And better than the gov't current proposal.)

            Report Abuse
            • Author by kfraz43 (August 13, 2009 1:08 pm ET)
              10  
              Don't you wish that the rest of the country could have this dialog? THIS is what we're supposed to be doing. Good on both of you...
              Report Abuse
              • Author by NiceguyEddie (August 13, 2009 1:23 pm ET)
                9  
                Well I'd love to go on TV and debate health care with Cheney2012!

                I'm free next Tuesday, how's your schedule look, Dick?

                LOL.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by Cheney2012 (August 13, 2009 1:45 pm ET)
                  4 3
                  I am camera shy...

                  I will say this. I want more ideas from the opposition because the system has problems.

                  That's party and policy leaders and the folks at these town halls.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by NiceguyEddie (August 13, 2009 2:35 pm ET)
                    8  
                    I want more ideas from the opposition because the system has problems.

                    So... not too happy with the current crop of republicans then, are you?
                    Report Abuse
            • Author by Cheney2012 (August 13, 2009 1:38 pm ET)
                6
              Several of your ideas are quite good. But for the people that can afford health insurance, I don't think we need a government middle man. That would be a major difference with my proposal.

              Also -- and I think I only made passing mention of it before -- You are correct most of the time buying insurance individually on the open market would be more expensive, but in my proposal the whole system changes and the market will change with it. With employer provided coverage now we are in pools with varying levels of risk depending on who you work with. I think this keeps premiums high. On the open market insurance companies can group them so the healthy can get much more affordable coverage, theoretically. And I would be all for regulation saying pre-existing and high-risk situations must be covered and perhaps there is a gov't role for that much like flood insurance.

              As for your points:

              1) Other than abortion I think we agree here. Do not cover a lot of elective and unnecessary stuff, but why not allow companies to cover it on some policies and if people want it they can buy it? I agree, mental health should be covered. But also remember: If you have a health savings account from the time you enter the workforce you may be able to afford a lot of these things out-of-pocket.

              2) At least here your proposal builds some safeguards for choice into it. Certainly more than the Democrats have offered so far.

              3) To me I have a fundamental difference on the tax issue. It is much better for that money to go to the people and let them decide. You can even have a law requiring minimum coverage as you do with auto insurance so the money is not going down a rat hole and people take some responsibility.

              4) Costs may be controlled under your plan, but will quality of care suffer? I'm not saying it will, but it is a fair question and I think something many opponents of this reform are concerned about.

              Here is one thing I didn't stress originally. I think if people are spending their own money there will be a built-in incentive to be healthier and that may help drive down costs.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by NiceguyEddie (August 13, 2009 2:04 pm ET)
                5  
                On the open market insurance companies can group them so the healthy can get much more affordable coverage, theoretically.

                Again - this only drives up costs even farther for the sick. And it's not like we always KNOW who the "sick" will be ahead of time. Athlete's die of heart failure in their 50's all the time, yet I've met more than a couple a-scotch-&-cigar-a-day people in tehir 90's. (Plus: car accidents, workplace accidents, sports injuries, etc...) Costs can only be controlled by POOLING risk. Otherwise there's no point: Being sick will cost as much in premiums as it otherwise does in med bills! (Or to put it a different way, if you knew that 100% of people in group plan all had cancer, could you reallly offer them any savings in the first place? Not without putting some of their costs off on some helthy people!) The only way to lower costs is to spread them around. That's the ONLY part of the current system that WORKS.

                I think if people are spending their own money there will be a built-in incentive to be healthier and that may help drive down costs.

                To an extent, yes. But the fact is: I can get sick, or injured, in a million different ways that have nothing to do with my lifestyle. And those low premiums you speak of (that cover next to nothing, so what's the point?) come with HUGE bills on the back end if you get, say: Lyme disease, Swine Flu, Pancreatic Cancer, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, [a child with] Autism, Schitzophrenia or any one of a million other things that diet and excersise don't prevent.

                Plus... if iminent death from cardiac arrest, anurysm or stroke isn't enough to get someone off the couch and away from the potato chips, the difference in out of pocket medical expense won't do it either. Why? Becuase this person, like your 'healthy people,' is assuming that nothing bad will ever happen to them. (It's a common conservative misconception, if I can wax annoyingly liberal, for just a moment!) And once you rid people of that delusion, MOST of them will be BEGGING for universal coverage. (Especially once they realize exactly what the odds are (over 99%) that SOMETHING bad is going to happen to them, and the show them what it will cost.)

                Bottom line, when your life and/or financial well-being is at stake, (iow: when facing death or bankrupcy,) there is just no such thing as "too much coverage." That's an illusion. To skimp on health coverage (esp if only for the 'healthy') is self-defeating, and hurts the entire system far more than the nebeift it provides to the few.

                (BTW - thank you for the ongoing discussion. You do bring up a lot of interesting ideas. I apologize for my original rant, (rants are just so much FUN though!) but I will say that I also found you latter posts to be more in-depth and well-thought-out than your first one. Hopefully, you feel that I've responded in kind. LOL)
                Report Abuse
                • Author by rtwmd1230 (August 13, 2009 3:38 pm ET)
                  3  
                  Lots of great dialogue. One point:

                  As more and more private insurance plans are gaining 60-80% market dominance with market derugulation, they are reimbursing docs and hospitals at 80-90% of Medicare rates, knowing that no one can turn down their contracts. So, lots of expenses are now being passed from private insurance to Medicare, rather than vice versa.
                  Report Abuse
              • Author by NiceguyEddie (August 13, 2009 4:21 pm ET)
                3  
                Several of your ideas are quite good. But for the people that can afford health insurance, I don't think we need a government middle man.

                You missed a crucial point with my proposal: there IS no gov't middle man.

                You'd deal with a ins co. rep, just as you do now. Only they're not allowed to deny you coverage. So there's no point in having a choice of plans- each has the same cost for coverage and gives the same benefit. You DO however get to choose amongst your three (or more) 'free' doctors (the choice comes in the CARE, not the coverage!), or any others, assuming you want to pay the differece. There's no 'gov't middle man' and quite a bit less of an insurance co. middle man than you have today.

                All they'd really do is negotiate the reimbrusment, at a level necessarly to guarentee adequate supply, and then bill the gov't for their trouble. (And remember: they can't screw the gov't becuase they need to bid against each otehr for new people to cover. (Or maybe even to keep their exsistsing peolpe.)

                But most of the "middle man" stuff would be between the ins.co, the doctors and the gov't. And you're cost never HAS to be more than the $20 co-pay, assuming you want to include that. Your care is between you and your doctor. PERIOD.

                Although the insurer could provide the valuable service of providing you (or your doctors) with the contact info of the "free doctors" inside that 50/100 mile radius.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by mikehuck1976 (August 13, 2009 6:37 pm ET)
                  5  
                  I'm with you there. What you are suggesting is MORE and tighter government regulation. So, you can be in the insurance game, but you have to live by the rules the government sets. I'm with you. I think this can work, and I also think there would still be enough profit to make this a viable business. However, there would not be the obscene profits that the insurance companies enjoy now - and that is why they would never go for this option. I think it could work, though.
                  Report Abuse
            • Author by highliter (August 13, 2009 5:27 pm ET)
                5
              Except in the cases of the mother’s health wouldn’t an abortion be an elected procedure?
              Report Abuse
              • Author by mikehuck1976 (August 13, 2009 6:39 pm ET)
                5  
                You're getting off track, hi, and missing the bigger picture. The issue is not one man's opinion of what healthcare procedure another citizen should choose to receive or not receive. The point is the entire system should be set up for every person to receive the proper healthcare. In the end, this is for the common good. We really do all win when all of our citizens are given proper healthcare.
                Report Abuse
              • Author by NiceguyEddie (August 14, 2009 7:47 am ET)
                3  
                Mikehuck1976's absoluteley got it right, but let me ask you something, highliter...

                Since PREGNANCY and BIRTH would be covered, 100%, and would cost FAR MORE than an abortion, what rational reason would there possibly be to NOT cover abortion - a legal procedure?

                You might argue the moral side of abortion, but that's mute because it's a legal procedure. And you may say it's elective, but if someone doesn't want a child, it's still the cheaper option. The 'elective' stuff I'm elxcuding are all more EXPENSIVE than the alternative - of doing nothing, since it's unecessary in the first place. But doing nothingion the case of abortion actually LEADS to other, greater, now necessary expenses. If you don't like abortion? Don't have one. We'll still cover you 100%. But you CAN NOT force your opinions onto someone else.

                The day abortion is made ILLEGAL, obviously that would no longer be covered. (In theroy it would't be practised.) Until then? Covering it benefits everyone in a tangible, measurable way. Your moral objections are irrelevant to anyone and everyone except YOU. (And there's a decent chance that you current health insurance cover covers abortion. They don't all, but most do... for exactly the reason I mentioned above: Forcing a woman who doesn't want to have a child to have one COSTS MORE. (Welcome to the world of for-profit health care!)
                Report Abuse
          • Author by dimo1977 (August 14, 2009 1:45 am ET)
               
            This argument falls short of glaring international evidence. Analysis of other countries' publicly funded systems is telling enough that government involvement does not create a terrible outcome. The World Health Organization provides an excellent data set of stats. I suggest comparing the performance of other systems to our own.

            What people aren't talking enough about is a change of priorities. We are spending way too much on an inefficient military.

            Also why do we spend so much more per capita on health care?

            I do think the WSJ article you reference has some pretty constructive ideas. We should here more of this at town hall meetings.



            Report Abuse
          • Author by foghornleghorn (August 14, 2009 10:01 am ET)
            5  
            There is no free market in health insurance.

            Under Obama's plan, you will remain free to continue to purchase your over-priced, under-covered, for-profit, ceo-salary-subdizing health care coverage.
            Report Abuse
        • Author by mikehuck1976 (August 13, 2009 6:32 pm ET)
          4  
          Well said, NiceGuy. Unfortunately, way too much nuance and details for someone who wants everything "simple".
          Report Abuse
      • Author by all your eyes (August 13, 2009 10:36 am ET)
        10 2
        It's really that simple? How's that fantasy world treating you? Enjoy it, while the rest of us reside in reality, and opt to have a serious discussion about the best way to promote the general welfare; or, to ensure a basic quality of life, including medical care, for all citizens of the richest country on earth. We'll drag you along, kicking and screaming, as we wait for the dinosaurs to die out.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by Cheney2012 (August 13, 2009 11:36 am ET)
          1 10
          See the above policy ideas, which probably represents more thoughtfulness on solving this issue then you have exhibited in dozens of issues over the years.

          "Fantasy" would be surrending freedom to government and believing that you will be OK.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by all your eyes (August 13, 2009 2:14 pm ET)
            6  
            Like surrendering the freedom to place phone calls and write e-mails without the government intercepting them without any cause whatsoever? Like allowing the government to arrest US citizens on US soil and throw them in the brig without access to a lawyer or a judge, without charges, indefinitely, at the sole behest of the executive branch? Like allowing the government to kidnap individuals in foreign countries and transport them over international boundaries for the purpose of torture, and when they turn out to be innocent, dismiss their lawsuits on flimsy "state secrets" claims? Jeez, I can't imagine surrendering my freedom to the state... surely you would oppose such measures???
            As for thoughtfulness on solving issues, my point in replying so frivolously to your "policy ideas" is that there is no sense in discussing solutions with people who won't accept reality. Bi-partisanship is dead, not because the Democrats are unwilling to incorporate Republican ideas, but because THERE ARE NO REPUBLICAN IDEAS.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by NiceguyEddie (August 13, 2009 2:36 pm ET)
              7  
              Oh they have a few...

              they all SUCK...

              But they have ne every now and then. LOL
              Report Abuse
      • Author by LORISNJ (August 13, 2009 10:54 am ET)
        9 1
        NiceguyEddie did a good job slapping you silly but I would like to add the following:

        Your statement: "People don't want the government between them and their doctors. They also don't like the insurance companies in the midddle. But given the choice a majority would take the insurance company. They certainly don't to compound a problem by inviting government in." is presumptuous at best and factually inaccurate to put it nicely.

        Are you the authority on what the majority of Americans would choose? I don't have a problem with a government healthcare system and polls do not support your statement either.

        I don't believe that the government is incapable of handling healthcare anymore than I believe that it would "compound the problem" if they were invited in. Hate to break the news to you Cheney2012, but the government is already in the healthcare business with Medicare and VA Hospitals and with the exception of the last 8 sickening years of the Bush Administration's neglect of the VA Hospital system at the same time they added so many that needed those same VA Hospitals; the VA Hospitals are the best in the world for the type of care they give their patients.

        You have as much chance of convincing MMfA readers that you have a valid point as ex-VP Cheney has of being elected president in 2012 but you are welcome to try!!!
        Report Abuse
        • Author by Cheney2012 (August 13, 2009 11:31 am ET)
          1 7
          What has the government handled well?

          Social Security and Medicare surpluses have been stolen.

          I would argue the VA has always been a poorly managed system, but if there is one group we need to pay for it is war veterans.

          The gov't didn't regulate the banks properly, right?

          Why do you want give the gov't more to do when a better way is out there?
          Report Abuse
          • Author by NiceguyEddie (August 13, 2009 12:37 pm ET)
            7  
            The gov't didn't regulate [X] properly, right?

            Again, there's a fundamental flaw in your reasoning here. Your answer to [X] behiving badly is to regulate them LESS? Do you really think that [X] (and I don't care WHO it is) is going to behave better once regulations are relaxed or removed? Even if you blame the gov't for not effectively regulating something, ELIMINATING gov't's involvement can't make the situation BETTER.

            If you think it can, let me know what flavor of Kool-Aid you like and I'll send you a case. It's going to be a long 8 years for you.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by Cheney2012 (August 13, 2009 1:49 pm ET)
              1 6
              Yes. I am saying the regulation and existing gov't meddling in the system has driven up costs sustantially.

              Certainly there are regulations you need to have, especially in any transition from the system we have now.

              But we need more of a free-market. I don't think one currently really exists in health insurance.

              And by the way, many insurers give to politicians of both parties to keep it that way.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by NiceguyEddie (August 13, 2009 2:20 pm ET)
                10 1
                I'm going to drag out my econ-101 (well, 601, but whatever) again.

                There are several, simple reasons why HEALTH CARE is (for the most part) unique, and not something that the free market manages well.

                1) FLAT DEMAND CURVE - Basically I have no alternatives. If I can't afford an Acura, I can buy a KIA. If I can't afford Filet, I can buy Chuck. But if I can't afford a triple-bypass (or chemo / transplant / pick your treatment) then I DIE. Well... death might be the low-cost alternative, but it's not one I'm likely to chose. So my demand curve (my tolerance/intolerance of price changes) is essentially flat. I'd be willing to give you ALL of my money, rather than DIE. So there's no incentive not to gougue. (There's a supply curve too, of course, but when the damand curve is flat, price just goes up, up, up with volume/demand. The supply curve will not lower prices in that case.) Unless I make medical decision based on COST rather than MEDICAL NECESSITY, cost not only won't come down, they CAN'T.

                2) The free maret does not guarentee a low price for all. Market Price is a function of a) how many people will buy something at a given price versus b) how many people will sell something at a given price. Where these two curves meet sets both the price AND the available volume. And there's the rub: It guarentees that SOME PEOPLE don't get the item, either becuase they can't afford it, or aren't willing to pay that much.

                (2 con't) Well... with people health care, I just can't accpet that! You can't either - witness your concerns about 'rationing.' WHAT DO YOU THINK THE 'FREE MARKET' DOES? It rations, based on price and tries to avoid surpluses (which lower the price) or shortages (which raise it).

                The free market is EXACTLY why med bills got so high that we need insurance. The free market is EXACTLY why insurance got so expensive that we need our employer to foot 80% of the bill. The free market is EXACTLY why costs are now so high that HUGE COMPANIES are being bankrupted by the insurance costs. (See point #1, above, for the reason.) OK, to be fair there're some inefficies created by the gov't - low medicaid reimbursments for example, we agree on that. But there is just no evidence, in theory or in practice, that supports the idea that the FREE MARKET will lower costs, or increase coverage.

                More than anything else, the MARKET is what got us to where we are today. And the patchwork of crap that we've built of the years to cover those cost HAS contributed, but not in a way that going 100% free market will suddenly deliver universal care.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by NewBee (August 13, 2009 5:13 pm ET)
                  5  
                  Exactly correct, and largely irrefutable. Analysis of the economics does not favor the right on this issue. That's exactly why they've been utilizing lies, innuendo, and filibustering at town hall meetings to try and stop what they know they can't logically assail.
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by Brabantio (August 13, 2009 5:55 pm ET)
                  6  
                  That's easily one of the best posts I've seen on this subject.
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by kim7nikk (August 13, 2009 6:57 pm ET)
                    7
                  John Adams would disagree with your point of view.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by Scotty Johnson Sr. (August 13, 2009 8:46 pm ET)
                    4  
                    So what? Adams was a conservative and considered one of the worst presidents in our history.
                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by NiceguyEddie (August 14, 2009 7:55 am ET)
                    2  
                    I don't care - I would have voted for Jefferson.
                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by all your eyes (August 14, 2009 9:00 am ET)
                    3  
                    What on earth is THAT supposed to mean?
                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by mikehuck1976 (August 15, 2009 4:20 pm ET)
                       
                    Is that a joke, kimnikk? I am going to assume it was a joke.

                    I also hope it was a joke when you stated that you believe that GE is killing American soldiers. Neither one was funny, but I will assume they are jokes.
                    Report Abuse
                • Author by citizenbyright (August 14, 2009 2:38 am ET)
                  3  
                  Our current system resembles a true Free Market like a pond resembles the ocean.

                  Industry itself wrote most of the Laws that govern health care, and the Regulators themselves are picked from those industries. Foxes guarding the henhouse.

                  The regulations are written to maximize the profits of the industries, and the middle-men that have claimed a vein to drain at every step, as much as they are for anything else.

                  What we have now is not remotely a Free Market.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by ForTheLoveOfEllipsis... (August 14, 2009 10:30 am ET)
                    3  
                    Wow. For once we agree, cbr; which is why that tripe CheneyIQ12 wrote about people preferring an insurance-company bureaucrat over a government one in their health-care decisiions is so preciously ridiculous. Whatever the faults of government bureaucrats in the health-decision process (inefficiency, lassitude, etc.), he/she at least does not have a vested pecuniary interest in denying me coverage. Every pennorth of claims paid by insurance companies is a penny less for their profits, and they make d*mned well sure the employees know that if they allow too many claims, they're gone...
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by citizenbyright (August 14, 2009 11:31 am ET)
                         
                      That is a bona fide aspect of it, yes, and a completely logical point that you make.

                      The proof is in the pudding, as they say. We will have to wait and see the final draft, and pay attention to how much of the existing profit-taking apparatus they leave intact.
                      Report Abuse
                • Author by LORISNJ (August 14, 2009 7:53 am ET)
                     
                  Super duper impressive retort Niceguy - the previous reply you made was good but this is PRIMO.

                  Well done, atta boy, and 2 big thumbs up!

                  Can I borrow your post to use in future debates on other sites, giving you the credit of course?

                  You need to take this comment on the road, seriously!
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by mikehuck1976 (August 15, 2009 4:22 pm ET)
                     
                  Wonderful post, Nice Guy. I really do think there could be minds changed that are sitting on the fence now with just a simple economics refresher course. We do not want our healthcare industry running on a system that maximizes profits over patients.
                  Report Abuse
          • Author by LORISNJ (August 13, 2009 12:44 pm ET)
            3  
            You are confusing policy with government programs. Congress enacts legislation that affects government programs and they also fund or under fund these programs; but the government employees who are tasked to run the programs and/or provide the service is what I was writing about.

            "Social Security and Medicare surpluses have been stolen." - Do you even know what you are writing about? Do you have Google on your computer? There were never any surpluses in Social Security or Medicare - the high cost of healthcare has threatened to bankrupt the Medicare system which is why we desperately need healthcare reform.

            Social Security is at risk because the system needs additional tweaking to keep it solvent until 2075 and beyond, mainly because more people are taking out then putting into the system. Several plans were bandied around like increasing the age of eligibility (which would be unfair to minorities whose traditional life expectancy would not have them alive to get anything out which they have paid into throughout their working lives). Another option would be to raise the threshold for earnings to over $1M per year before SSI payments are stopped. Right now after you have earned $100K, SSI is no longer taken out of your pay per year. It is estimated that people earning over $10M per year, stop paying into SSI on the 5th of Jan each year. By making adjustments, SSI should be solvent way past the time any of us soon to be collecting SSI will still be alive (the baby boomers that are starting to collect payments). But the SS administration is extremely efficient - it is said to be the best government agency in the country. Millions of Americans get their checks on time each month, which is a better track record then the payments insurance companies pay to doctors or hospitals for covered care. The Social Security Administration also is able to do the great job they do with an overhead of only 2.3% annually. How is that for efficiency? Also, GWB is the one who took surpluses and turned them into deficits and used SS trust to secure loans from the Chinese. Look it up!

            "I would argue the VA has always been a poorly managed system, but if there is one group we need to pay for it is war veterans."

            VA has had its problems in the past but only as it applies to being under funded. The care that is given to vets, past and present, is without a doubt the best in the world - do not diminish the care and professionalism of these hard working caring individuals because you won't win that fight with me.

            "The gov't didn't regulate the banks properly, right?"

            Here you are forgetting history. Banking regulations worked fine and dandy until the Republicans a.k.a. Phil Gramm decided to deregulate everything they could get their corporate owned hands on - FREE Market my ass! Regulations need to be reinstated to reign in these capitalist carpetbaggers so that they won't be buying and selling toxic assets at the expense of our economy and to make tons in fees for themselves. We also need more people to watch them and give the regulators the authority to do investigations when necessary. The President and the Democratic Congress will be plugging the loopholes that the Republicans put in very soon - first healthcare legislation, then onto banking regulations.

            "Why do you want give the gov't more to do when a better way is out there?"

            What better way is there, giving insurance companies carte blanche to charge whatever they want, deny services that they deem too costly, and to cancel policies of insurers just because they become ill? What alternative do you have in mind? What plan do you have or the Republicans in Congress have that will fix the healthcare system? I haven't seen anything from them so you must have something in mind or do you advocate not doing anything and just let the whole mess bankrupt the country and let many people die in the process due to lack of healthcare?

            You won't be able to answer those questions without repeating your "government can't do anything right" argument no matter what I do to debunk your anti-government rhetoric. It is a pity you don't realize that the President and the Democratic led Congress has your best interest at heart, things can be better if only you would give the President a chance.










            Report Abuse
          • Author by mikehuck1976 (August 13, 2009 6:46 pm ET)
            5  
            "What has the government handled well?

            Social Security and Medicare surpluses have been stolen.

            I would argue the VA has always been a poorly managed system, but if there is one group we need to pay for it is war veterans.

            The gov't didn't regulate the banks properly, right?

            Why do you want give the gov't more to do when a better way is out there?" Dick2012

            The government handles the military, post office, FDA and many other programs much better than any private industry ever would.

            Social Security and Medicare are both excellent programs. As for the surpluses - we solved that the last time there was a Democrat in the White House and we will do it again. We just need to learn to keep the surpluses out of the hands of the Republican presidents.

            The VA is the best healthcare system in the country. My family members have been treated wonderfully all over the country by this system. It is the most up-to-date, most technologically advanced, and most focused on preventative medicine of any healthcare system in the country. It works well because the end game is not maximum profits, but the welfare of the patients.

            The government did not regulate the banking system ENOUGH. This does not require less regulation, but clearly more regulation. Glad to hear you have come around on that finally.

            Other than more government regulation, what is the better way out there?

            Any other questions?
            Report Abuse
            • Author by citizenbyright (August 14, 2009 2:28 am ET)
                4
              The VA?

              So, perhaps simply compelling Military Service, and thus eventually giving most everyone access to the VA system would be a good way to go...

              (without having to make major, little-understtod changes to our entire economy and system of government with as-yet-unforseeable consequences)
              Report Abuse
      • Author by mikehuck1976 (August 13, 2009 6:31 pm ET)
        5  
        "In reality, the health care issue is very simple: If I get sick I go to the doctor and get treated. People don't want the government between them and their doctors." Dick2020

        Wow. That says it all. I have read a lot of uninformed nonsense posted on this site, but this takes the cake. The healthcare issue is simple - See Dick get sick. See Dick go to doctor. See Dick get treated. On his way to the doctor see Dick step over his fellow citizen who sleeps in the alley because he was DENIED healthcare due to a pre-existing condition. See Dick WAKE UP!! So the answer is more of the insurance companies? Or.....what? Anything but the government, right? Get a grip, Dick.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by dimo1977 (August 14, 2009 1:36 am ET)
           
        I'm not sure your argument holds up very well for a couple of reasons:

        First you say, "The problem is, they don't need to be that complex. Politicians and government officals have created that complexity to serve their own interests. They exempt themselves from all the complex rules and regulations they create."

        This really is not advantageous. Having a simple plan that you can sell to constituents is always a more solid approach to solidifying and attracting a following.

        You also say, "In reality, the health care issue is very simple: If I get sick I go to the doctor and get treated. People don't want the government between them and their doctors. They also don't like the insurance companies in the midddle. But given the choice a majority would take the insurance company. They certainly don't to compound a problem by inviting government in."

        Your experience of going to the doctor is not the same as developing public policy for health care.

        Health care policy really isn't simple at all. It involves five distinct competing parties jockeying for influence:
        1. Patients
        2. Medical Providers
        3. Employers
        4. Insurers
        5. R&D (Pharmeceutical, services, equipment)


        Report Abuse
        • Author by citizenbyright (August 14, 2009 11:03 pm ET)
             
          You forgot at least two.

          Wall Street. They very much depend on all that money moving back-and-forth through their grubby little fingers.

          The Politicians themselves. They very much depend on all that disposable income and the favor of the big players, not to mention their own investments and private business interests (their own and their Family & friends)

          Takes big money to run big campaigns. Its a lot easier to get a million dollars of backing out of ten rich people than it is to get out of a million poor people.
          Report Abuse
    • Author by cuardai (August 13, 2009 10:12 am ET)
      10  
      This is embarrassing, like I said before I work between Europe and the Middle East, and you would think that the average person in the Middle East is not well informed about how the US government works, you'd be surprised. They have such minute questions about the electoral voting process, and how the congress and senate works. They follow what is going on with the health care reform and are absolutely puzzled by it. They can't believe that people are not happy with Universal coverage, or better funding. They don't get why people don't want their insurance bills to go down...half the time I don't know what to say and they other half I try not to get engaged in these discussions...
      Report Abuse
      • Author by NiceguyEddie (August 13, 2009 10:34 am ET)
        12 1
        When you have an entreched political movement that requires the de-education of the public and rampant ignoracne to survive, this is what you get. And the corprations that support them, PROFIT from this ignorance. It's a viscious cycle. Fortuanatley, it's all stating to fall apart for them. There's hope yet.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by Macmanius (August 13, 2009 10:59 am ET)
      8 1
      Bravo to Mr. Foser for his cogent analysis of one of the most basic yet most divisive aspects of the public discourse!
      As a liberal, (which is a label I still wear proudly,) I am always frustrated when my likeminded friends blame public ambivalence or misinformation on issues of national urgency on the sheer stupidity of "the other side". Not only it this a fundamental misrepresentation of the facts, it is also incredibly condescending. Want to know why these people call us "elitists"? It's because it is, in fact, elitist to assume people who disagree with you are either inherently unintelligent or willfully ignorant. Let's be honest: how willing would anyone here be to listen to the viewpoints of someone who made the same assumptions about them? I know I'd find it pretty darn hard!
      Report Abuse
    • Author by DaRocketMan (August 13, 2009 1:19 pm ET)
      2  
      I agree with you; however, I don't think it's necessarily true that many media outlets report the facts even that ONE time. I mean, look at FOX News. Sometimes, it's painfully clear that they don’t even consider reporting and informing their viewers on the facts, or even think about making the facts clear. A lot of the time, I have to assume they spend off-air thinking about ways to fool the people who don't understand the complexities of the topics. I also feel that some of the reporters on Fox and similar conservative sources are in the same boat as the rest of us; misguided by trust in their party, and unclear on the complexities of the policies that they are denouncing. What makes it worse is that the politicians themselves are caught up in the lying, and many who are financially supported by the insurance companies don't care at all about the truth about health care reform, as long as the money keeps rolling in. There needs to be some sort of accountability for the politicians in the form of a Censure, as has happened in the past, to make sure that they cannot purposefully mislead and fear-monger their constituents. It cannot be tolerated!
      Report Abuse
    • Author by Slinkie (August 13, 2009 1:47 pm ET)
      6  
      cheney2012
      you know you glorify a privatized system you seem to know very little about I was insured by blue cross for close to 20 yrs until 3yrs ago a tumor was found in my right lung I was told by my employer that Blue crosswould no longer honor my policy due to a stroke that ocurred when I was 12yrs old even though It was revealed to them when I enrolled in the policy it did not become a problem untilI was diagnosed with lung cancer,I make to much money to qualify for goverment assistance and no insurance company will insure me unless I pay over 1200 a month in premiums and that policy would not cover the cancer in my lung or any future cancer they might find,where is justice in this system you neo-cons think is so great
      Report Abuse
    • Author by theeye (August 13, 2009 1:50 pm ET)
      6  
      Foser seems to touch a few nerves of Republicans who prey on the ignorance of their followers. One of the people that shouted down a democrat law maker regarding health/insurance reform stated later when interviewed by a CNN reporter, "I dont want Government to get involved wth my health care insurance, they should live my Medicare alone...." This level of ignorance that Medicare is not run by government indicates the amount of misinformation/disinformation that the media needs to correct so that the anger is correctly directed at the correct issues!
      The Eye
      Report Abuse
    • Author by Slinkie (August 13, 2009 1:58 pm ET)
      4  
      cheney2012
      you seem to forget these failures occur when the neo-cons or conservatives have the hammer so what is it you are saying that we should no longer trust the republicans
      Report Abuse
    • Author by joseph_b26 (August 13, 2009 6:41 pm ET)
      5  
      It Is In The Air

      The media's roll in this is finally coming to light. Before seeing this thread, I wrote the following on another site:

      What will history say if health care fails? Will it be written: Barack Obama's plan to get rid of seniors doomed his health care plan. After all, history is filled with many attempts to get rid of our seniors. The last statement should seem absurd. Since when did genocide become a political issue?

      My point is this is getting too much attention. Americans know we don't put our seniors on the "chopping block." Why in the hell are we talking about this like it has been put on the table? It is almost like the MSM is doing more damage to keep the health care efforts a horse race then they are reporting on the true issue that must be addressed before health care can become a right.

      What will the right make up next? Will the media pick it up and present it like it is something to disprove or health care is doomed? The media must grow up and be accountable for their sensational irresponsibility. Everything does not have to be framed or sensationalized.

      Joseph

      It is in the air, and it has the media's name all over it. They are largely responsible for the longevity of these phony claims about health care for all. The media roll is currently a tag team: The Republicans write it, and the media runs with it. It is about time they get exposed for the damage they do to America.

      Joseph
      Report Abuse
    • Author by kim7nikk (August 13, 2009 7:04 pm ET)
        4
      As BO has pointed out that even the USPS is being killed by FedEx and UPS. In fact I challenge anyone to find one example of Government making anything more affordable by getting involved.
      Look at what the Federal Government has done for our Educational system. We now pay more some Public School systems(like DC schools) than most Private schools would charge for a better education.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by Scotty Johnson Sr. (August 13, 2009 8:48 pm ET)
        2  
        As BO has pointed out that even the USPS is being killed by FedEx and UPS.
        Wrong. The USPS is being hurt by the Internet and the fact that bills are sent and paid for electronically. UPS and FedEx do not deliver first-class letters. It's apples and oranges. Try again.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by Big Dan (August 13, 2009 10:40 pm ET)
             
          OK, first of all, by saying "the media needs to focus on the facts", you're implying they're not doing their job. David Brock himself, said the "liberal media" is a sham, it isn't liberal.

          They ARE doing their job: according to Noam Chomsky and others, they speak for: the wealthiest few, corporations, the military, and the government, only when the government speaks for THEM and not US.

          So, I beg to differ, they ARE doing their job. And their job is propaganda for whom I mentioned above. They're not going to "turn the corner", etc...

          Why do you think Media Matters has an endless daily supply of things to point out?

          We should all be pointing out that the corporate so-called liberal media isn't liberal, never was, and isn't going to be...and expose it, and direct people to independent media.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by citizenbyright (August 14, 2009 2:20 am ET)
            3
          The Pony Express finally had to deliver its last bag too.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by NewBee (August 14, 2009 4:04 am ET)
            2  
            Did it go out of business do to government or because of technological advancement?
            Report Abuse
            • Author by citizenbyright (August 14, 2009 10:02 am ET)
              1  
              technological advancement, more effective and efficient methods came along, thanks to the inventiveness and entrepreneurial spirit of everyday people.

              "Government" didn't invent motor vehicles and airplanes.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by NewBee (August 14, 2009 1:04 pm ET)
                2  
                Exactly. So those that point to the USPS as an example of government failure are all wet.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by citizenbyright (August 15, 2009 12:58 am ET)
                     
                  In some ways yes.

                  The Postal Service has had and always will have its problems. Thats just a simple fact of existence, no different than any other.

                  If the Postal Service doesn't fix those problems, and remain a viable and relevant institution, then that will evince a failure on the part of government.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by NewBee (August 16, 2009 1:42 am ET)
                       
                    If the Postal Service doesn't fix those problems, and remain a viable and relevant institution, then that will evince a failure on the part of government.
                    You almost were correct. If the market changes and "snail mail" goes the way of the buggy whip, then that's not the government's fault. It served its purpose as long as there was a need for its services.
                    Report Abuse
      • Author by NewBee (August 14, 2009 3:41 pm ET)
           
        In fact I challenge anyone to find one example of Government making anything more affordable by getting involved.
        Ask your local FedEx if they can send a letter across the country in a few days for $.50. When they stop laughing think about the implications for a moment.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by mikehuck1976 (August 15, 2009 4:39 pm ET)
           
        kimnikk - this is getting really sad. Do you actually think that FedEx and USPS do the same exact thing? Put a letter in your mailbox and see who picks it up. FedEx or USPS? It is not cheaper to send kids to private school. Are you ever correct?
        Report Abuse
    • Author by labman57 (August 14, 2009 1:40 am ET)
         
      Are some of the anti-reform protesters genuinely fearful of health care reform? No doubt.  It's hard to separate the sincere wheat from the Astroturf chaff.

      The problem is that the most vocal opponents of the reform legislation really do not care whether what they are espousing is factually correct. They will gladly embrace the lies and distortions if these fallacies provide a vehicle for venting their pent up hatred against anything and everything with the Obama stamp on it.

      The key is to get past these bellicose blowhards and reach the constituency that is genuinely concerned, yet receptive to learning the facts. 

      The fear is real, but it is the result of misinformation being deliberately and maliciously disseminated by the health insurance industry via lobbyists, pundits, and Republican political leaders. This self-serving, greed-obsessed industry has invested a great deal of money and energy into assuring that little meaningful discussion takes place at any of the town hall meetings which are intended to allow concerned citizens to ask questions and get substantive answers from their elected officials.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by citizenbyright (August 14, 2009 2:16 am ET)
        4
      Pretty good article. Though perhaps not intentionally, it highlights a glaring example of how several generations of Public Schooling have failed this nation and its people so abysmally. It also highlights how our so-called Representatives have and still are failing us.

      For any Law to be legitimate, it must be understandable to the layman who will suffer under it. The Plain Language Doctrine that is fundamental to the very fabric of our Nation, and absolutely crucial to our Freedom. We are all 'presumed to know the Law' the moment we reach the age of majority. It is a duty that envelops each and every one of us. Yet, the school system, compelling attendance in no-small-part in order to prepare children to become better citizens in the American Tradition, doesn't even give them enough knowledge to fathom a typical contract. Much less does it prepare them in any meaningful way to understand our legal & legislative system and assess the very form & function of Laws they will live under. At the same time, our system is allowed to churn out volume after volume of "Law" that most of our Represenataives are at a loss to cogently and honestly explain. (Including the very few that actually even read what they support or oppose)

      Something has indeed gone horribly wrong, and its something so fundamental not only to our system but also to our basic nature that its insidious exploitation has been largely over-looked.

      Whether our Freedom and Liberty is being wheedled from us by stealth or we are abdicating Our Trust in increments makes little difference in the end, as it is our posterity that will come into this world bereft of their Birthright, into the yoke of autocratic subjugation.

      We are becoming little more than proles. Human cattle, deluded into believing that those who tend us and cull us and set us to-task are our servants; That the fences are there to keep us safe from what lurks beyond; That the feed is doled out as our entitlement and our reward; That the barns and the sheds and the rancher's house, somehow belong to us.

      The notion of letting a class of administrators rule over us in every meaningful way while, we chew the cud of our indulgent passions and petty entertainments, always leads towards that end.

      "There is no subjugation so perfect as that which keeps the appearance of freedom for in that way one captures volition itself." -- Jean-Jacques Rousseau


      Its long past time for a change to this trend towards bovine bliss, the real and palpable change that neither Party is capable or inclined to give us.

      As the Article points out so well, we have to educate ourselves and one another in what is truly important, and not place Our Trust in any that would perpetuate our ignorance in those respects.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by night-n-day (August 14, 2009 2:51 am ET)
      4  
      If you scream "Socialism" while using public libraries, public schools, public roadways, the police, the fire department, unemployment insurance, social security, or medicare, you are an idiot and a hypocrite. All those programs are just as much Socialism as universal healthcare.

      Of course, the same morons of the Palin-persuasion, who love to exploit the military (while of course never serving themselves), are apparentlty unaware that the US MILITARY is about as classic an example of what Socialism is as you can find.

      The number of Socialism programs that rightwingers use everday is staggering, and rightwingers would scream bloody murder if their Socialism programs were ever taken away. All these Joe the Plumber morons and uneducated Town Hall imbeciles would understand that if we didn't have a "liberal media" so far to the right that sewer-dwelling scum like Limbaugh and Palin can lie with impunity, while any common sense about how many Socialistic programs rightwingers use everyday is intentionally kept out of the "conversation".
      Report Abuse
      • Author by citizenbyright (August 14, 2009 10:04 am ET)
        1  
        Thomas Jefferson envisioned a system of truly Public Universities, open to anyone and everyone to come and study whatever interested them.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by ForTheLoveOfEllipsis... (August 14, 2009 10:43 am ET)
          2  
          Which, as I pointed out on another thread concerning police, fire, etc., was classic socialism decades before the term socialism had even been invented. Simply put, it means that there are some services so necessary or so beneficial to the public that they could not, even in an Adam-Smith capitalist world, be left to the private sector to provide. Would a private fire or police department go out of business (and leave the public unprotected) if profits fell? Would such departments charge higher fees against such a loss, thus making them unavailable to a large segment of the public? Jefferson believed that education was so important that it must not be left exclusively to capitalists to provide, lest those who could not afford higher education not get it...
          Report Abuse
          • Author by citizenbyright (August 14, 2009 11:06 am ET)
              1
            I completely agree with that statement.

            Its when, as with that example, government determines what you may, may not, or must learn,,, or uses the pretext of learning to; reach into your private affairs; exercise power and gather intelligence that are beyond, or otherwise change the nature of, the legitimate scope of government; infringe upon any number of your Rights and other activities,,, that the entire premise falls into the worst definitions of socialism, and any number of unsavory and then-applicable terms.

            It must pass Strict Scutiny for it to be viable. Does anyone really want to go through all of this, only to have the co-equal Judiciary Branch strike it all, or key aspects of it, down as unconstitutional? Government can only go so far, its Powers are finite.
            Report Abuse
    • Author by jestephens (August 14, 2009 9:10 am ET)
         
      Why are you surprised that so many in North Carolina don't know about Hawaiian statehood? American knowledge of the world, including basic geography, is almost legendary. Remember, Mark Twain is supposed to have written that "God created war so that Americans would learn geography." Perhaps we should add to Twain's understanding that many Americans will only learn something when exposed to a contrary fact during a controversy like the birther thing. Or, is even that being too optimistic?
      Report Abuse
      • Author by citizenbyright (August 14, 2009 10:44 pm ET)
           
        Reminds me of the 'man-on-the-street' segments & the like that Leno used to do in the Hollywood/Burbank/Beverly Hills area.

        I've worked and have made freinds & acquaintences all over, North, South, East and West. Ignorance of basic facts and general history is all-too-easy to find in this country, wherever you go, even amongst those most people consider to be of above-average intelligence.

        Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, Greens,,, they each have their lowest common denominators.

        I'm just sayin',,,

        Report Abuse
      • Author by citizenbyright (August 14, 2009 10:44 pm ET)
           
        Reminds me of the 'man-on-the-street' segments & the like that Leno used to do in the Hollywood/Burbank/Beverly Hills area.

        I've worked and have made freinds & acquaintences all over, North, South, East and West. Ignorance of basic facts and general history is all-too-easy to find in this country, wherever you go, even amongst those most people consider to be of above-average intelligence.

        Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, Greens,,, they each have their lowest common denominators.

        I'm just sayin',,,

        Report Abuse
    • Author by goesto11 (August 14, 2009 9:30 am ET)
      2  
      """""To be clear: Much of this ignorance is not the result of stupidity, and it is not the result of lack of interest.""""

      As a resident of North Carolina, I can assure you the ignorance is indeed the result of stupidity and lack of interest.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by Missouri Democrat (August 14, 2009 1:56 pm ET)
        3  
        Goesto after having spent the better part of 5 years living in parts of NC while I was in the marines I have seen my fair share of stupid and ignorant and stupid people there and where I was born and raised, southwest Missouri. I still stand by whoever it was that said, and I paraphrase this, "Stupidity can be cured by some learning but you can't cure ignorance." Sadly we are stuck with the ignorant for the rest of our lives.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by vwcat (August 14, 2009 10:23 am ET)
      2  
      while it should be part of the media's job to educate the audience, there are a few problems.
      1. the media of today do not feel it's their job to educate and actually resent it when people call them on this.

      2. the media is not very well educated themselves.

      3. they probably feel their job is about punditry and not reporting.
      4. Do not like having to deal with those boring things like facts.
      5. Far too many of the media these days feel their role is to make it to the Georgetown cocktail circuit and be part of the inner circle and access then about facts, reporting and taking pride, as was the tradition, of not being part of the staid establishment.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by mookie von zipper (August 14, 2009 3:33 pm ET)
        2
      foser says "complex policy" as if it should be a given. administering health care itself may be "highly technical" and require "special knowledge", but it shouldn't take 700 pages to articulate a reform plan (operating on the assumption that reform is needed). and if anybody should be focusing on the facts, it's obama and the dems, who have failed miserably in explaining the respective plans in the house and senate. why are they spending an inordinate amount of time demonizing their critics, who are simply asking valid questions about a scheme being ramrodded down our throats, rather than actually selling the merits of the plan itself?

      foser is giving "the media" too much credit in his assertion that they overestimate the public's knowledge as their excuse for not reporting the facts about health care. complex and technical facts are not sexy. what they find sexy is showing career politicians and the lowest common denominators who put them in office melt down at town hall meetings.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by NewBee (August 14, 2009 3:40 pm ET)
        1  
        rather than actually selling the merits of the plan itself?
        It's hard to "sell" the plan, as you put it, when protesters won't let you speak and drown out any attempt to discuss the issue.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by citizenbyright (August 15, 2009 1:08 am ET)
             
          To be fair without advocating, the 'right' seems just as convinced that we don't need health care reform, as the 'left' was convinced we didn't need Social Security reform, only a few years ago.

          The anti-S.S. reform protesters did a fair share of drowning out debate, name-calling & being nasty and busing people in to "Town Hall" meetings as well. (Perhaps not quite to this extreme, but still beyond denial)
          Report Abuse
          • Author by NewBee (August 16, 2009 1:49 am ET)
               
            The anti-S.S. reform protesters did a fair share of drowning out debate, name-calling & being nasty and busing people in to "Town Hall" meetings as well
            I remember clearly when Bush did his tour trying to sell SS privatization. I don't remember any yelling and screaming and shouting down inside the actual town halls. There may have been seniors groups and others protesting outside, but that's not the same thing. Interestingly, Bush's plan died a quick death. The more he tried to sell it, the less people thought it was a good idea. That's how it should work. The left didn't have to make up facts and smear people in order to kill SS privatization. We just let the facts speak for themselves.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by citizenbyright (August 16, 2009 8:16 am ET)
                 
              I agree that it has been taken to a new extreme with this issue, and I'll even throw in that the "Town Halls" under Bush were more stunt than substance.

              The whole "debate" was pretty heated wherever any real debate took place, there were people with some pretty rude messages, and there were people being bussed in from elsewhere.

              There is a fairly good article on it at politifact
              Report Abuse

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