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Eric Boehlert
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Health care mobs = Swift Boat Vets. And the press plays dumb, again

August 18, 2009 8:50 am ET

Here we go again.

During August's summer daze, right-wing mini-mobs (egged on by corporate interests) have run wild at town hall meetings, propagating all kinds of smears and misinformation in an effort to derail an important Democratic campaign. Yet the mini-mob members have been treated as deeply important newsmakers by the press during a slow summer news month.

Sound familiar? Recall August 2004, when the right-wing Swift Boat Veterans for Truth (egged on by corporate interests) stole a month's worth of campaign headlines by propagating all kinds of smears and misinformation in an attempt to derail an important Democratic campaign. Yet they were treated as deeply important newsmakers by the press during a slow summer news month.

Honestly, the only thing missing this time around is a crackpot, best-selling book. In 2004, the Swifties used the release of Unfit for Command to launch their media-based smear campaign. This summer, it could have been something like ObamaScare: How Liberal Health Care Will Destroy America. (The Swifties' right-wing publisher must be kicking itself over the missed marketing opportunity.)

But what has been perfectly consistent is the way the press has, again, fallen for a right-wing smear campaign and dressed it up as news. Just as with the Swifties, the press has turned over its summer coverage to a band of agitators spreading misinformation. Five summers ago, the Swift Boat Vets helped hijack the election. They lied about documents, they lied about eyewitness, and they lied about their partisan affiliations and connections. For several crucial weeks during the campaign, journalists turned away from the pile-up of Swift Boat falsehoods and contradictions, rarely daring to call the Swift Boat attack out for what it really was -- a hoax. Too spooked by the GOP Noise Machine and its charge of liberal media bias, the press propped up the Vets as serious men and showered them with attention.

This year, the press has handed over untold hours of free airtime to mini-mob members whose sole purpose seems to be to spread as much fear as possible. (The ones who show up toting guns and Nazi posters make that point rather emphatically.)

Fringe players on the right are making wild accusations that cannot be backed up by fact. The mainstream media response? We must cover the phenomenon daily, even hourly!

So, day after August day, these vacuous health care "debates" are aired on cable television, just as news consumers suffered through night after night of vacuous Swift Boat "debates" five summers ago. In both cases, the press for the most part handed in its referee's whistle and focused its attention on simply reporting the fact-free claims and then getting the Democratic response. (i.e. he said/she said.) It turns out journalists are petrified of calling out right-wing activists as liars, and the other side knows it.

What's amazing is that even a conservative Republican congressman has conceded that the mini-mobs (this summer's news superstars) appear to be completely detached from reality. "You cannot build a movement on something that is not credible,'' Rep. Bob Inglis of South Carolina told the Los Angeles Times after being confronted by belligerent, fact-free protesters who were convinced that as part of health care reform, children would soon be forced to receive swine flu vaccinations. "At town meetings, the hostility went straight through to hysteria,'' said Inglis.

The "town hells" are really just mob rule masquerading as a health care debate, masquerading as direct democracy. Sadly, the news media are hyping both phony story lines. The press is taking the fringe players seriously, even the ones who spend their free time drawing up Obama-is-Hitler posters.

The Wall Street Journal, describing a New Hampshire protester:

[She] held a sign with Mr. Obama's face superimposed on a Nazi storm trooper, a sign, she said, that was made by her chronically ill mother.

[...]

"Adolf Hitler was for exterminating the weak, not just the Jews and stuff, and socialism -- that's what's going to happen."

I'm sorry, but since when are these types of crackpot protesters taken seriously by the American media? I guess I must have missed all the prewar coverage in 2003 when reporters from elite newspapers such as the Journal patiently interviewed radical protesters who showed up outside presidential events with posters featuring Bush's face superimposed over a Nazi storm trooper. I must have missed it when the Journal quoted people at length about how Bush wanted to start killing -- "exterminating" -- Americans.

In 2003, those fringe players (understandably) couldn't get arrested by the press. But the mini-mobs today have been ushered onto the national stage and urged to express their hatred incessantly and preferably in front of television cameras. It's just like when the press showered the lying Swifties with all kinds of attention despite the fact that they could barely keep track of their own laundry list of lies.

Today, the press, for the most part, won't call out the mini-mob supporters as liars or point out that, at times, they are blindingly ignorant about the facts in play. (OK, let's stipulate that many media outlets did debunk Sarah Palin's loony "death panel" claim. But does the press really deserve a pat on the back for completing that obvious task? Isn't that like congratulating your 12-year-old for not wetting the bed at night?) Apparently, journalists feel most comfortable reporting on what the mini-mobs are saying and how they're making life politically uncomfortable for Democrats.

And so now extremists are the news. And no, it doesn't really matter if what they're yelling about bears little resemblance to reality. For instance, here is a random collection of recent mini-mob quotes. I'm pretty sure every journalist covering the issue of health care understands the claims are obviously false. But good luck finding examples of fact-checking context:

And remember the man at Sen. Arlen Specter's televised town hall meeting last week who ignored the forum's protocol (the first 30 people admitted were allowed to ask questions) and screamed that Specter was "trampling on our Constitution" as the crowd erupted. After security guards moved in, the man kept shouting and yelling about how Specter's office had lied about being allowed to ask a question at the forum. "One day, God is going to stand before you and he's going to judge you!" the main announced before storming out of the room.

That confrontation was looped endlessly on television.

But seriously, what kind of voter gets in the face of a 79-year-old U.S. senator and starts pointing his finger and screaming about Judgment Day because the guy's upset about the Q&A format at a town hall meeting? How did any part of the man's pointless tirade qualify as news?

Simple. He yelled! Just look at The New York Times' headline on its blog post about the same Specter town hall forum: "Eruptions at Sen. Specter's Town-Hall Meeting."

There were eruptions, and "questioners did not hide their anger," which meant -- of course -- it was news. (And naturally the man should be invited to rant more on TV.) More important, there were conservative eruptions. Because as a general rule for Beltway newsrooms, when conservatives get angry about public policy, it's news. When liberals get angry (think anti-war), it's annoying. (The Times, by the way, never reported whether any of the town hall claims that day were accurate or not. The paper simply repeated the claims as news.)

Like the Swifties and their fictitious allegations, the fact-free claims of the mini-mobs have been instantly embraced as significant and game-changing events. But what exactly were those "eruptions" about? At the highlighted Specter event, it turns out the "eruptions" and "anger" had very little to do with health care reform.

Here were some crowd highlights:

Reading those, I wonder if Democratic consultant James Carville was too polite when he told Good Morning America that the mini-mob members "don't even know what they're talking about."

But that didn't matter, because The Washington Post's Chris Cillizza announced that the Specter town hall event where the televised mini-mob fireworks exploded had become the iconic moment of the summer:

The back-and-forth between Democratic Sen. Arlen Specter and several attendees of a town hall meeting in Lebanon, Pa., this week may become the lasting political symbol of the summer of 2009: a politician and his constituents standing inches away from one another, angrily debating the merits (or lack thereof) of President Obama's health-care reform plan.

Debating the merits? Really? Because if somebody could point out to me in the transcript where any sustained, informed debate actually took place that day, I'd sure like to see it. To me, the event seemed more like a right-wing radio gabfest, with citizens spouting a collection of repetitive talking points.

It was just a tea party held indoors.

Did anything the Specter mini-mob said that day make sense? Was any of it connected to reality? The Post didn't care. It made great theater. It was news.

And like the 2004 Swift Boat offensive, the mini-mobs are just another right-wing hoax that's managed to fool the press.

Follow Eric Boehlert on Twitter.

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    • Author by Cannonball (August 18, 2009 9:16 am ET)
      25 3
      The truly sad part is that the Democrats in Congress and Obama are relinquishing their majority partly because of this media coverage. MMFA makes the argument that this is poor journalism. In fact, it is purposeful propaganda. These media outlets aren't interested in journalism, they work for conservative owners who want everything the Democrats attempt to fail. They have health coverage and don't care about us. They simply want low taxes and government regulation that allows them to make bigger profits. The media is their water boy. It is populated by traitors who take their pay to misinform and mislead listeners with full knowledge of their misdeeds.

      Democrats have the majority but some members are beholden to lobbyists to such a degree that Obama's agenda will fail. This is not a great country anymore; it's a cesspool of selfishness and ignorance. We spend $7 trillion a year for a military to abate our fears of foriegners while we allow our country to rot from within.

      How stupid must we be to still fear socialism when we have successful social programs like Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, Fannie Mae, public education, food stamps, HUD, subsidized college student loans, FDA, etc. People just don't get that our government protects us from all kinds a vagaries, both intentional and circumstantial, through tax collection and spending. Universal healthcare is the natural extension of the programs we already rely upon. But it will take money from the pockets of pharma and the AMA put it back into the pockets of everyday American's. The truth must be killed.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by Andrew Johnson (August 18, 2009 12:16 pm ET)
        3 18
        You think that "free" universal healthcare will take money from Big Pharma. That must be why they agree with Obama's insistance on the public option. Recall he was For the single-payer Healthcare "before he was against it", but now that their is too much opposition to governmental seizure of another industry, he has to claim he's against it. Is Barack Obama's incessant lying, backtracking and misdirection really the Change You Can Believe In?
        Andrew Johnson
        Report Abuse
        • Author by magnolialover (August 18, 2009 1:54 pm ET)
          15 1
          Andrew,

          President Obama did indeed say that he favored a single payer system, back in 2004 when he made those statements. He never favored such a thing for this part of the health care reform. Never said it in regards to what is being talked about now.

          What industries has government seized? None. They have bailed some out, but they are not running said industries, and as we see, those industries are starting to come back. The government does not run the car business, does not run the banking business. Which is what I assume that you're talking about.

          What has he lied about? Can you point to specific examples? Or are you just parroting lines from talk radio?
          Report Abuse
          • Author by NiceguyEddie (August 18, 2009 3:01 pm ET)
            6 1
            What do you expect from a guy who takes his handle from one of the most despised U.S. Presidents of all time? Reason and principles?
            Report Abuse
            • Author by Slinkie (August 19, 2009 2:04 pm ET)
              3  
              I believe ole Andy takes a backseat to GWB asthe most despised Pres. in our history
              Report Abuse
        • Author by Cannonball (August 19, 2009 1:01 pm ET)
          5  
          There is nothing "free" about universal healthcare. Are you daffy? Our tax dollars pay for it, that is why conservatives are calling it "socialism". Didn't you get your talking points bulletin? Oh, so you were being sarcastic in your use of the parenthetical. I get it, you think others ignorantly view the public option as "free", is that it? They just don't get that it will bankrupt the nation? Another lie. It will lower projected costs. How? By rationing care and by subsidizing costs between healthier and sicker people. Yes, all thoughtful people understand that it will ration care. Just as all thoughtful people understand how the current insurance companies ration care. The difference is that the public option will ration care by medical necessity, efficacy and an emphasis on wellcare and preventative medicine. The current insurance rationing is accomplished by rescinding insurance coverage for unrelated omissions on the application, raising rates on sick people beyond their means, and excluding applicants who have a preexisting need for health coverage; such as hypertension, heart disease, diabetes, depression, gastric reflux disease, and any number of other common illnesses (BTW, I just described 80% of the population). If you don't think healthcare needs reforming, you, sir, are either very wealthy and selfish, or completely misinformed.

          Also, Pharma may agree with the public option because Obama caved on making them compete on Rx pricing. But the public option will still lower Rx costs for the consumer, just not for the taxpayer. I am deeply disappointed that some Democrats won't turn on their Pharma handlers and insist on competition. But maybe we can go after that later when the majority of Democrats are trying to keep their seats.

          As for Obama being "for something before being against it", that is a campaign canard. It sounds pithy, but is actually moronic. Do you really think that a president should not compromise on campaign promises? There is a reason why this is a bi-cameral legislative process with an executive with veto power. You don't know the answer do you? It's because a representative government can't be truly representative if it doesn't foster compromise. You don't know what "bi-cameral" or "representative government" means do you? Look it up on Wikipedia, we'll wait...
          Report Abuse
        • Author by rsinebada7366 (August 20, 2009 2:22 pm ET)
            1
          Putting words in quotation marks indicates that they are the exact words of the person you are referring to. When did Obama say, "I was for single-payer Healthcare 'before I was against it?'" What you just did is a sin. Sins have consequences.
          Report Abuse
      • Author by NiceguyEddie (August 18, 2009 2:58 pm ET)
        12 1
        What's wrong with this country from A to Z.

        The Republicans have no Anwers, the Democrats have no Ability.
        The Republicans have no Brains, the Democrats have no Balls.
        The Republicans have no Competence, the Democrats have no Courage.
        The Republicans have no Dignity, the Democrats have no Determination.
        The Republicans have no Education, the Democrats have no Endurance.
        The Republicans have no Fixes, the Democrats have no Fortitude.
        The Republicans have no Genius, the Democrats have no Gravitas.
        The Republicans have no Hope, the Democrats have no Heft.
        The Republicans have no Intergtity, the Democrats have no Intestines.
        The Republicans have no Jesus, the Democrats have no Jefferson.
        The Republicans have no Knowledge, the Democrats have no Knack.
        The Republicans have no Love, the Democrats have no Lift.
        The Republicans have no Minds, the Democrats have no Might.
        The Republicans have no Necessity, the Democrats have no Nerve.
        The Republicans have nothing to Offer, the Democrats refuse to Operate.
        The Republicans have no Pragmatism, the Democrats have no Potency.
        The Republicans have no ‘Quotient, the Democrats have too much Quit.
        The Republicans have no Rapport, the Democrats have no Resolve.
        The Republicans have no Souls, the Democrats have no Spines.
        The Republicans have no Talent, the Democrats have no Tenacity.
        The Republicans have no Use , the Democrats have no Umph.
        The Republicans have no Values, the Democrats have no Vigor.
        The Republicans have no Wit , the Democrats have no Will.
        The Republicans have no words that start with 'X', the Democrats have no words that start with 'X'.
        The Republicans have no Yin , the Democrats have no Yang.
        The Republicans have no Zig , the Democrats have no Zag.

        So, as you can see, the BIG problem is that we don't have enough words that begin with "X."
        Report Abuse
        • Author by tlcsfv (August 18, 2009 6:12 pm ET)
          4  
          Oh, well, how about xenophobia? That's got republican written all over it.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by citizenbyright (August 18, 2009 11:30 pm ET)
          3 1
          xenophobia :)
          Report Abuse
          • Author by NiceguyEddie (August 19, 2009 9:10 am ET)
            3  
            TRUE, but that's something the Republican's HAVE. I need an X-Word for a virtue they LACK. ;)

            (And the Dem's being Xenophobic won't help them pass legislation.) LOL.
            Report Abuse
        • Author by NiceguyEddie (August 19, 2009 9:11 am ET)
          4  
          And actually? I take it ALL BACK, now that the liberal caucus is insiting the public option be reinstanted. GO LIBS!!!
          Report Abuse
        • Author by carlileb5935 (August 20, 2009 12:24 am ET)
          2  
          So, as you can see, the BIG problem is that we don't have enough words that begin with "X."

          Xactly
          Report Abuse
    • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (August 18, 2009 9:18 am ET)
      15  
      Eric, the press didn't "fall for" this, they're part of it.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by bip84124092 (August 18, 2009 2:27 pm ET)
        4  
        That's exactly what I was thinking. Sometimes it's so obviously deliberate it's frightening. Both Olberman and Maddow showed tape of a
        Freedomworks organizer telling elderly people Hitler had the Holocost and Obama was going to do the same thing to them with a different name. Not one media outlet, including MSNBC, mentioned this, not one. After all the excellant work Rachel has done exposing these corporate organizers the media continues to call these crazies "angry citizens". Dick Army actually had to resign form a law firm because ahe exposed him. Silence.
        WTF!
        Report Abuse
      • Author by Tell the Truth (August 18, 2009 9:23 pm ET)
        4  
        Absolutely! What is not discussed more is that most of the media is owned and run by the right wing. They do not report the truth because they are owned by individuals or corporations that do not want an honest debate. The reason so many individuals are so misinformed is because the media is not performing their duty of reporting the truth and calling BS when politicians and pundits blatently lie. They are part of it as Easy stated!
        Report Abuse
    • Author by Tbone Slickens (August 18, 2009 9:20 am ET)
      4 25
      Five summers ago, the Swift Boat Vets helped hijack the election. They lied about documents, they lied about eyewitness, and they lied about their partisan affiliations and connections.


      You got that right Boehlert! I think your memory is a tad clouded on who lied about documents, eyewitnesses, and partisan affiliations and connections in relation to the '04 elections though. That would be Danny Rather and the 60mins hacks who were all FIRED for trying to usurp an election through fraud and partisan affiliation.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by magnolialover (August 18, 2009 9:29 am ET)
        20 2
        Umm, no... That story didn't even make a blip on the radar, even when it ran. And if Dan Rather had such sway, how come we didn't get President Kerry?

        Thing is Bush dodged his national guard service. There is no real doubt about it. Rather, was right.

        The Swift Boaters on the other hand, they basically made everything up even as it was being refuted by the folks who were actually there. And again, we see republicans and conservatives attacking the service record of a vet, mostly because they disagree with their politics now. Remember, they weren't attacking Kerry on his policies, they were attacking his service to our country.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by political_left-religious_right (August 18, 2009 10:04 am ET)
          16 1
          Remember, they weren't attacking Kerry on his policies, they were attacking his service to our country.

          And let's not forget the great difference between the two parties there as well--no one ever attacked McCain about his service to our country. Why can't the Republicans ever show that much class?
          Report Abuse
          • Author by Tbone Slickens (August 18, 2009 11:22 am ET)
            3 16
            no one ever attacked McCain about his service to our country.


            Really? No one?

            No one attacked his grade point average in the Naval Academy? Even though most who did probably couldn't or wouldn't have been accepted?

            No one attacked McCain on his flying record? Even though flying aircraft off boats is one of the most demanding jobs in the Navy.

            No one attacked McCain on his being a prisoner of war who was tortured and admitted he "broke" and was widely accused by scoundrels on the left who would have soiled themselves when they got their draft card?

            Just thought I'd jog your memory of NO ONE...

            Being a democrat means never having to say your sorry.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by dr. matt (August 18, 2009 11:51 am ET)
              15  
              No one attacked his grade point average in the Naval Academy?
              Fail. What does that have to do with his military service? His GPA...or lack of one, is proof that he's not very smart.


              No one attacked McCain on his flying record?
              He crashed five aircraft. That's a very valid concern.
              Report Abuse
            • Author by magnolialover (August 18, 2009 12:17 pm ET)
              14  
              And of course, you have proof of these "attacks" on his service record from people in the media right?

              I thought not.

              I never heard anyone disrespect Senator McCain's military service record. For that, and that alone he has earned my eternal gratitude for his military service to our country, and his sacrifice when he was a POW.

              His GPA has nothing do with military service, he graduated low in his class. Very low.

              His flying record was also poor, as someone else pointed out, he crashed numerous fighter jets during his flying career.

              And let's remember that your, many of your, republican heroes were cowering at home when many democrats (Murtha, Kerry, Cleland, and Gore to name a few) VOLUNTEERED to go to Vietnam.

              Being a republican means never having to bring facts to the table, just hyperbole.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by Tbone Slickens (August 18, 2009 1:50 pm ET)
                4 11
                And of course, you have proof of these "attacks" on his service record from people in the media right?


                Why yes I do Mag. I never come to this site unprepared. His GPA was attacked and yes it does have relevance because as a midshipman, that time counts towards your service. Go ahead and lump U.S. Grant and Gen Custer to the low achievers also. History has a different view.

                While you're at it, dig up the accident reports on the aircraft John McCain "crashed" (I guess getting shot down counts in your book) and tell me what you find. Do good work because I know a little about the details, but I know you and the other cheerleaders haven't a clue.

                Noam Chomsky, MoveON's David Fenton, Code Pinks Medea Benjamin all attacked McCain"s war record. Chomsky going so far as to label him a war criminal. These are the easy one's off the top of my head. Don't believe me though. Do a little "Googl'n" and you'll find 730k hits to "McCain, attacks on service to country". The Google don't lie, do it?

                I know you love the kool-aid Mag, but you got to come up for air sometimes.

                Attacks on McCain

                Report Abuse
                • Author by magnolialover (August 18, 2009 2:20 pm ET)
                  11  
                  I don't love the kool aid, I love facts.

                  Is it an attack on his GPA or his service? Being a midshipman doesn't count as time served, because you've got to be commissioned first, so says my commander at the Army base I work at, he ought to know, he's a West Point Grad. The "attacks" on his GPA were true. He was not a good student. And did he get into the academy because of his own merit, or because of who is grandfather and father was? I'm sure he had a leg up being the grandson of an Admiral and all, and if you think that's not true, I can't help you with that one. He was a sub par student, the grades prove that out.

                  I read the link that you provided, and it ran down McCain's Naval career, but did not disparage his service at all. Not in the least. I don't think the link you provided proves what you're saying at all.

                  I'll give you this. There was a fringe group, made up of about 2 people, who started the Vietnam Vets Against McCain, those guys were negative about him, but they never got any real exposure, like the Swift Boat liars did. Not even close. They were rightfully defined as kooks, and not embraced.

                  Also, during Kerry's campaign, he was outright MOCKED by the RNC for his Purple Hearts (remember the Purple Heart band aid medals they made up?). Again, refresy my memory of when the DNC did that? Oh right, they didn't do that to McCain.

                  McCain plane crashes

                  Looks like JS McCain crashed a couple of planes. He was responsible for a couple of them, as in, pilot error. He did not cause the Forestal fire, as almost everyone knows, that was a missile mis-fire from a plane near his, and it almost killed him.

                  The quote from Medea Benjamin was:

                  "I wouldn't characterize anybody who fought in Vietnam as a war hero," said Medea Benjamin, a co-founder of the theatrical anti-war group Code Pink. "In 23 bombing sorties, there must have been civilians that were killed and there's no heroism to that."

                  "Anyone who can't look back and admit how wrong it was to be in Vietnam and be killing civilians deserves to be challenged," she said, though she stressed that her group is more focused on McCain's present support for the war in Iraq than on his past.

                  Wow... She totally destroyed McCain's career on that one.

                  Chomsky never called McCain a war criminal, but there were others (anonymous posters) who did.

                  I don't believe you, because I looked for what you said to look for, and it just ain't there. Next you're going to tell me Clark attacked his war record, which is false as well.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by Tbone Slickens (August 19, 2009 8:47 am ET)
                      6
                    Being a midshipman doesn't count as time served, because you've got to be commissioned first, s


                    Your Commander has it partly right (I misspoke also) if McCain graduated (he did) then it doesn't count. If McCain had dropped out of Annapolis to become regular Navy or started a civil service job it would have counted. So we're both right in a way.

                    You say only two fringe people were disparaging McCain's service record. That is all it really takes. I remember it quite differently though as all the blogs (this one especially) and quite a few MSM outlets picked up the ball and ran with the smears. In fact the very thing happened that this site supposedly rails against (when it happens to your side).
                    Report Abuse
                • Author by irishguy (August 18, 2009 2:50 pm ET)
                  6  
                  Your link merely took me to a Huffington site which debunked a New York Times story that made a false claim about McCain declining an offer of becoming an admiral in order to make his first run at Congress.

                  That is hardly an attack on McCain's service record, and certainly nothing on the level of the vicious attacks on Kerry's record.

                  Good grief, we had the swiftboaters claiming that Kerry lied his way into three Purple Hearts and every medal and citation for bravery he earned in Vietnam.

                  Nothing even remotely close to that happened to McCain regarding his service record.

                  McCain may have some legitimate gripes about press coverage in general, but none about his service record. And I would daresay that taking his press in its entirety, he would have few complaints over the way the press helped him sell the "straight-talking maverick" image he so carefully crafted.



                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by fabucat58 (August 19, 2009 10:49 pm ET)
                       
                    Yeah and show me a book that the Democrats published about McCain, comparable to the pack of lies that was "Unfit For Command." And don't dredge up some obscure junk. Show me a McCain hate book that topped the bestseller lists!
                    Report Abuse
                • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (August 18, 2009 3:18 pm ET)
                  11 3
                  Yet again, your link doesn't say what you think it does. If that's what you call being prepared, you're better off remaining unprepared. You'll look a lot smarter that way.
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by jeremy (August 18, 2009 5:33 pm ET)
                  11  
                  Noam Chomsky, MoveON's David Fenton, Code Pinks Medea Benjamin all attacked McCain"s war record. Chomsky going so far as to label him a war criminal.


                  are you kidding...is this the massive liberal media attack on John McCain that you have spent your time on??? You're talking about two organizations that have never had any influence on the media at all. Code Pink has been a constant source of amusement for journalists for years! None of the people you mentioned had a sliver of impact on the McCain campaign the way the Swift Boat crew had on John Kerry. It would have been a miracle for any Republican to win in '08 after the Bush disaster...get over it.
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by fabucat58 (August 19, 2009 10:47 pm ET)
                     
                  Guys, you shouldn't feed this RNC troll! Code Pink & Noam Chomsky are 'the left of the left' and aren't members of the Democratic party, which they view as too conservative.

                  The problem with righty wackadoodles, as opposed to the far left, is that righty wackadoodles have highly rated TV & radio shows. Plus Limbaugh, Beck and O'Reilly identify as GOP. Chomsky and Medea Benjamin are openly disdainful of the Democratic party establishment.
                  Report Abuse
            • Author by political_left-religious_right (August 18, 2009 12:40 pm ET)
              15 3
              Being a democrat means never having to say your [sic] sorry.

              And being a republican means never having to say you're literate. Apparently Tbone didn't watch any of the Democratic convention, where every single speaker who mentioned Sen. McCain began by praising his military record.

              I said no one attacked McCain about his service. Tbone disagrees, but for some reason cannot name names.
              Report Abuse
            • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (August 18, 2009 1:12 pm ET)
              11 3
              Being a democrat means never having to say your sorry.
              And, in your case, being a Republican means you never have to tell the truth.
              Report Abuse
            • Author by worrierking (August 18, 2009 1:45 pm ET)
              13 1
              Nice alternate reality you've got going there Slim.

              Sure there were some who said those things about McCain. They were the fringe people, not those leading their party and surely no one with any influence over anyone else. No one in the media questioned Senator McCain's service. No one.

              All of the other righties here questioned Senator Kerry's service to his country. One who was one of the biggest accusers of the senator even admitted to being mislead by his college professors and duped into opposing the War in Vietnam. Sort of granting himself immunity from evading his own participation in a war he now thinks was just and nobel.

              The propaganda division of the Republican Party helped spread the lie. Even people who themselves used any means necessary to avoid a fight they supported.

              I have no idea how old you are, whether you remember the times or you're being force fed the era through the eyes of the Chickenhawks.

              The majority of the guys who served, were from the lower middle class or poor. Many were lefties. Many were Democrats too. They had no option to have a doctor arrange form them to get a medical deferment for a cyst, no parent to pull strings who could get them jumped over others to serve in the NG.

              Others had the brains but not the money to attend school and get a student deferment and then a teaching deferment until the war ended and then safely move into he media.

              Those who went were from both sides and both parties and you disgrace them all by implying that either side was cowardly.
              Report Abuse
            • Author by NiceguyEddie (August 18, 2009 3:41 pm ET)
              14  
              Attacking ability is not the same thing as attacking integrity.

              McCains failures, like his successes are a matter of public record. No one on the left denied his valor.

              Kerry's medals are also a matter of public record. To question his valor is to question their validity. Which is to say that it's "OK" to question the valor and medals or EVERYONE who served.

              You "support the troops" types seem to think that's OK. But that's because you're all a bunch of phony, hypocritical self-righteous clowns.

              Us "hate the military" types accept the flaws of the heroes on our side, and assept the valor of the heroes on yours. We don't question a soldier's courage or integrity just to win an election.

              "Support the troops" indeed.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by bingo (August 19, 2009 10:41 am ET)
                1 4
                We don't question a soldier's courage or integrity just to win an election.
                Ooooooops...

                The country doesn't know it yet, but it has created a monster, a monster in the form of millions of men who have been taught to deal and to trade in violence...

                John Kerry, 1971


                Report Abuse
                • Author by Craig (August 19, 2009 1:00 pm ET)
                  6 1
                  The quote without the ellipsis:

                  The country doesn't know it yet, but it has created a monster, a monster in the form of millions of men who have been taught to deal and to trade in violence, and who are given the chance to die for the biggest nothing in history; men who have returned with a sense of anger and a sense of betrayal which no one has yet grasped.


                  He was defending his fellow soldiers against their misuse by the government.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by bingo (August 19, 2009 2:46 pm ET)
                    1 3
                    He was defending his fellow soldiers against their misuse by the government.


                    Little doubt Kerry's self-serving, opportunistic characterization of an entire generation of American soldiers (yep, all 2.5 million of 'em) as "monsters" qualifies as a tribute to and "defense" of their "courage" and "integrity" in these parts.

                    As to the use of an ellipsis, it's employment redacted content irrelevant to rebutting the quoted assertion. Little wonder you try to use it.

                    Nice try.






                    But perhaps you need to be reminded
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by Craig (August 19, 2009 6:42 pm ET)
                      3 1
                      No, you edited the quote and changed the meaning. Like when you put "monsters" in quotes even though Kerry didn't say "monsters." He said a monster (singular) was created the betrayal of those 2.5 million men. But I suspect you understand this. Why else would you try, even this feebly, to deceive?

                      Here is a quote a presidential candidate made during his campaign, not a generation earlier. I'll do the decent thing and give the whole sentence.

                      Our military is absolutely incapable of defending this country. Ronald Reagan
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by mikehuck1976 (August 20, 2009 11:21 am ET)
                        2  
                        How absolutely pathetic. Even after their disgusting smear attack against a man who fought and killed for his country actually worked, they still propagate lies and distort quotes against the man. Once again the right-wing chooses party over country, party over patriots. Party over everything!
                        Report Abuse
            • Author by DougReese (August 18, 2009 8:15 pm ET)
              13  
              Hey Tbone . . . . where's that million dollars you promised to anyone who could show that anything Swift Boat Veterans for "truth" said wasn't true?

              Remember how you backed out of that little offer?

              Here's a second chance. What say you?

              http://big.assets.huffingtonpost.com/FINALPICKENSLETTERFROMCREW.pdf

              Doug Reese
              Report Abuse
              • Author by Tbone Slickens (August 20, 2009 3:34 pm ET)
                  1
                I say...you show me where I promised a million dollars and I'll give you the million. Link to the link or give me a date...either will work.

                Happy hunting! I'm guessing you'll be like the ones above searching in vain for the elusive FEB!
                Report Abuse
        • Author by jmille426471 (August 18, 2009 10:13 am ET)
          12 1
          I would hate to see how the Republicans would react if Dems wore BANDAIDS to their national convention to mock the war wounds of the Republican's war-hero candidate. Personally, I would board up my house for fear that right-wing gun nuts across the country would be driven to violent derangement.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by Tbone Slickens (August 18, 2009 10:21 am ET)
          3 16
          Thing is Bush dodged his national guard service. There is no real doubt about it. Rather, was right.


          So Danny finally found that elusive FEB? No...then he still is wrong and he still is fired.

          You stick to that meme though. If we can get some more libs to run with falsified documents and lies then we can get more fired. :)
          Report Abuse
          • Author by magnolialover (August 18, 2009 10:44 am ET)
            11  
            Do you hold such opinions about your conservative news people who tell lie after lie after lie day in and day out?

            I didn't think so.

            Bush WAS AWOL from his National Guard duty. if he wasn't AWOL, then why wasn't he on post when he was supposed to be? He was working on someone's campaign.

            Rather, and his staff who got fired, deserved to not get fired. Why? They made a mistake, and I seem to remember Rather apologizing, on AIR, for said mistake. The docs indeed were faked, but the premise of the story was correct. Bush was AWOL.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by Col. Harlan Sanders (August 18, 2009 12:54 pm ET)
              9  
              The docs indeed were faked...

              Maybe I missed it, but was this ever decided one way or the other? I thought that it only got as far as the docs couldn't be confirmed as authentic nor proven fakes.

              And don't bother going down this road with Koko. I wasted some time on it a few weeks ago, and he just ends up on his FEB fetish, where he insists you need to come up with a document that doesn't exist to prove that he's wrong.

              He's got a very self-serving Catch 22 worked out, one that may make sense to only him.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (August 18, 2009 1:19 pm ET)
                10  
                The docs were not faked. The secretary who typed them said the information contained in those docs was what she had typed and that it was accurate.

                Also, it has been shown that contemporary IBM selectric typewriters were in fact capable of typing the superscripts, subscripts, and the other special features that were in the document that Rather (not "Danny," as he was never known especially by those like TBlown Sickens [See? Two can play the diminutive handle game] who prove every day how little their knowledge is on any subject at hand)
                Report Abuse
                • Author by Col. Harlan Sanders (August 18, 2009 1:29 pm ET)
                  10 1
                  I only ask because I see posters here whose opinions I respect saying that the docs were faked. I didn't think that was ever shown to be true.

                  As I understood it, Rather received documents that he didn't properly verify, and addressed this and apologized after being challenged.

                  Maybe a lapse in professionalism, but relatively minor compared to the "mistakes" and outright lies committed by the media daily for years before and after Rather's blunder.

                  Interestingly, that "liberal" Rather had a decades-long impressive career destroyed, while Hannity and Lou Dobbs ,Karl Rove and Brit Hume are on the air, creating much more deliberate and harmful misinformation daily.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by snoopy (August 18, 2009 1:34 pm ET)
                    9  
                    Read about it here, Col. As you noted, it was never proven one way or the other, and without original documentation from the same era it is virtually impossible to determine authenticity. "Rathergate" was about not authenticating the documents, nothing else. CBS never said the bush story was a fake like our friend t-bone likes to alledge.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by mary59 (August 18, 2009 2:02 pm ET)
                      8 1
                      T has a bone, and even tho there's no meat on it, he'll chew it and chew on it. Anything to keep from discussing the disgraceful coverage of the corporate press of these right-wing lunatics.

                      It's all a diversion. They can't discuss health care and have an honest discussion.
                      Report Abuse
                    • Author by magnolialover (August 18, 2009 2:22 pm ET)
                      4  
                      I stand corrected. I thought it had been verified that they were indeed faked.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by Col. Harlan Sanders (August 18, 2009 2:32 pm ET)
                        6  
                        Easy mistake to make, Mags. Even if you don't listen to the wingnuts who regularly say that CBS was proven to have forged documents, the mainstream media generally reported this as if they were proved to be fake.
                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by bruce1ace (August 18, 2009 3:04 pm ET)
                          1 8
                          Come on you have to know even if you won't admit it out loud that those documents weren't the originals.

                          I'm sure they said what the originals said but let's be honest about the percentage chance that they actually WERE the originals.

                          Very slim. They were fake even if they weren't proven fake just like OJ was guilty even though not proven so.
                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by Col. Harlan Sanders (August 18, 2009 3:10 pm ET)
                            9 1
                            Bruce, I didn't say anything about them being originals or copies. I have no idea if they were fake or authentic. Experts studying them for months haven't been able to come to a conclusion, so how the hell can I say that I know they're fakes?

                            Obviously, you know that they're fake. I respect your right to a faith-based position, I just prefer to go on facts.

                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by congero6189599 (August 18, 2009 6:13 pm ET)
                              5  
                              Maybe I'am a little late, but I hope this helps Col. http://www.salon.com/opinion/blumenthal/2007/09/27/dan_rather_suit/index1.html
                              Report Abuse
                            • Author by albertsenj (August 19, 2009 4:26 am ET)
                              2  
                              Isn't it the wing-nut position that these Bush/AWOL docs were faked by the same guy who faked Obama's birth certificate??
                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (August 19, 2009 8:04 am ET)
                                7 1
                                Yes. George W. Bush was actually in Kenya during the period he was supposed to be in Alabama.
                                Report Abuse
              • Author by Tbone Slickens (August 18, 2009 2:01 pm ET)
                2 11
                and he just ends up on his FEB fetish, where he insists you need to come up with a document that doesn't exist to prove that he's wrong.


                You finally get it. You see chicken hauler, there are very SPECIFIC details and paperwork in the military if you don't meet certain flight hour levels or abuse govt. property (An F-102 say) and one of the links in the chain is the "FEB fetish" as you say. The FEB being part of the process that would have given you the ammo you need to convict GWB of whatever tree you're trying to corner him in.

                There was no FEB convened. There is nothing there.

                Keep charging at those windmills ol' boy. Just don't forget to drop your visor. You might get poked in the eye!
                Report Abuse
                • Author by Col. Harlan Sanders (August 18, 2009 2:19 pm ET)
                  8 1
                  I notice you haven't come up with any of the items noted as missing by Snoopy and EasytorefuteWingnuts (below) but are returning to your security blanket, the FEB, and asking me to prove some accusation you imagine I've made.

                  This raises two questions;

                  What is the accusation I've made that I might need "ammo" for ? (keep this reality-based, not another of your hallucinations, please)

                  Why was there no FEB convened considering the suspicious facts regarding Bush's service?
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by NiceguyEddie (August 18, 2009 3:29 pm ET)
                  11  
                  Riiiiiiiight.

                  Because it's not like the son of a senator would EVER get special treatment now, would he?

                  That would be about as likely as you swallowing a ocnvenient LIE just becuase it benefits your political POV. And we know that would never happen.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by Tbone Slickens (August 20, 2009 3:37 pm ET)
                       
                    You mean like Al Gore? He who spent most of his time at Ft Rucker, and then did a mini-tour of Nam for five months? I guess then yes!

                    It beat Kerry's exhausting three month tour though. So he's got that going for him!
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by mikehuck1976 (August 20, 2009 5:49 pm ET)
                         
                      You are truly disgraceful Tbag Slickens. You attack and dismiss the records of men who CHOSE to go "in country" rather than use their connections to stay out and you defend the man who did use his connections to stay out of harms way while the children of the poor and middle class were dying by the thousands - all for the sake of a pathetic partisan argument. You are beneath contempt. You should be ashamed of yourself for making a joke out of one of our citizens killing for the sake of his countrymen all because you disagree with his politics. You are a sad, lonely joke. I am sure I am wasting my time with you because clearly, shame eludes you.
                      Report Abuse
                    • Author by Craig (August 20, 2009 5:58 pm ET)
                         
                      That would be his second tour, right? The one where he got his third Purple Heart and a Bronze Star for bravery?
                      Report Abuse
            • Author by fabucat58 (August 19, 2009 10:52 pm ET)
                 
              It is easy for righties to lie on the internets when the RNC pays 'em bank for each lie that they post! This guy's really earning his living today!
              Report Abuse
          • Author by MickD (August 18, 2009 10:51 am ET)
            13 1
            I'd keep an eye on this trial if I were you. Mr. Rather is about to get his day in court and it may not end up like the result you're so obviously celebrating.

            Judge Reinstates Dan Rather Fraud Claim Against CBS Over Firing

            http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601088&sid=ajMzu66Jhddo
            Report Abuse
          • Author by rms (August 18, 2009 11:35 am ET)
            9 1
            For some reason it always struck me that people at CBS were fired for, essentially, doing a very poor job of telling the truth, yet NO ONE was fired by the Bush Administration for the screw-ups leading up to the war in Iraq, one of the most catastrophic intelligence failures in U.S. history. Stop whining about CBS, TBone...
            Report Abuse
            • Author by magnolialover (August 18, 2009 12:18 pm ET)
              11  
              They were fired, essentially because, CBS didn't want to look like they were liberally biased.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by rms (August 18, 2009 9:06 pm ET)
                5  
                Indeed, and the authors of "Mark Foley (D)," "Mark Sanford (D)," the recent "misspelling" of Joe as "Joke" for a representative of the Democratic party, and other "mistakes" that I have left out are, I believe, still employed by Fox (or, at least, not terminated for those offenses).

                Just to prove they are not liberally biased either!!
                Report Abuse
            • Author by fabucat58 (August 19, 2009 10:57 pm ET)
                 
              No one @ Fox ever has been fired for lying either!
              Report Abuse
          • Author by Indy (August 18, 2009 1:00 pm ET)
            4 3
            He did dodge his national guard service. I read it in a book called "George Bush: UNFIT FOR COMMAND" It had a big hard cover and nice printing, big awesome picture of him running away in his flight suit on the sleeve, so it must be true.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (August 18, 2009 1:22 pm ET)
              10 1
              A $10,000 reward was put up for anyone who could prove they served in the Alabama national Guard with GWB. The money eventually went to charity because no one stepped forward to claim it (because Bush never showed up, which is the very definition of "desertion during wartime").
              Report Abuse
              • Author by craig98607271 (August 18, 2009 4:38 pm ET)
                  4
                technically no, he would be absent without leave. still a doofus though.
                Report Abuse
        • Author by bingo (August 19, 2009 4:13 pm ET)
            1
          by magnolialover

          Thing is Bush dodged his national guard service. There is no real doubt about it.


          Oh, I dunno 'bout that. I'd say Byron York has some "real doubt about it". As a self-described lover of "facts", this should be of interest to you...

          Bush’s National Guard years
          Before you fall for Dems’ spin, here are the facts
          September 9, 2004

          ...just for the record, here, in full, is what Bush did:

          The future president joined the Guard in May 1968. Almost immediately, he began an extended period of training. Six weeks of basic training. Fifty-three weeks of flight training. Twenty-one weeks of fighter-interceptor training.

          That was 80 weeks to begin with, and there were other training periods thrown in as well. It was full-time work. By the time it was over, Bush had served nearly two years.

          Not two years of weekends. Two years.

          After training, Bush kept flying, racking up hundreds of hours in F-102 jets. As he did, he accumulated points toward his National Guard service requirements. At the time, guardsmen were required to accumulate a minimum of 50 points to meet their yearly obligation.

          According to records released earlier this year, Bush earned 253 points in his first year, May 1968 to May 1969 (since he joined in May 1968, his service thereafter was measured on a May-to-May basis).

          Bush earned 340 points in 1969-1970. He earned 137 points in 1970-1971. And he earned 112 points in 1971-1972. The numbers indicate that in his first four years, Bush not only showed up, he showed up a lot. Did you know that?

          That brings the story to May 1972 — the time that has been the focus of so many news reports — when Bush “deserted” (according to anti-Bush filmmaker Michael Moore) or went “AWOL” (according to Terry McAuliffe, chairman of the Democratic National Committee).

          Bush asked for permission to go to Alabama to work on a Senate campaign. His superior officers said OK. Requests like that weren’t unusual, says retired Col. William Campenni, who flew with Bush in 1970 and 1971.

          “In 1972, there was an enormous glut of pilots,” Campenni says. “The Vietnam War was winding down, and the Air Force was putting pilots in desk jobs. In ’72 or ’73, if you were a pilot, active or Guard, and you had an obligation and wanted to get out, no problem. In fact, you were helping them solve their problem.”

          So Bush stopped flying. From May 1972 to May 1973, he earned just 56 points — not much, but enough to meet his requirement.

          Then, in 1973, as Bush made plans to leave the Guard and go to Harvard Business School, he again started showing up frequently.

          In June and July of 1973, he accumulated 56 points, enough to meet the minimum requirement for the 1973-1974 year.

          Then, at his request, he was given permission to go. Bush received an honorable discharge after serving five years, four months and five days of his original six-year commitment. By that time, however, he had accumulated enough points in each year to cover six years of service.

          The Hill
          Report Abuse
          • Author by pearlene_scott1602 (August 20, 2009 2:51 am ET)
               
            Bush enlisted in the Texas Air National Guard on May 27, 1968, during the Vietnam War, with a commitment to serve until May 26, 1974. In his 1968 Statement of Intent (undated), he wrote, "I have applied for pilot training with the goal of making flying a lifetime pursuit and I believe I can best accomplish this to my own satisfaction by serving as a member of the Air National Guard as long as possible." He performed Guard duty as an F-102 pilot through April 1972, logging a total of 336 flight hours. Guard records...

            Bush's six-year obligation to serve required him to maintain his immediate readiness to be called to active duty in the event of a national emergency. Bush's military records indicate that until May 1972 he fulfilled that obligation.

            Bush stopped flying altogether shortly after the spate of trainer flights in spring 1972. He then skipped a required medical exam, did not appear for any training for six full months, transferred from the Texas Air National Guard to the Alabama National Guard to work on a political campaign and was stripped of his pilot privileges, his officials records show.

            White House officials also could not explain the final two entries of Bush's official flight logs that refer to him being assigned to work as an instructional pilot in late May 1972 at a Texas Air National Guard base. Bush actually sought permission and left the base for Alabama before the dates listed on the flight logs and his pay records show he wasn't paid for any work on the two dates of the instructional pilot assignment.
            Experts Examine Bush Pilot Logs...


            Pay records released in February show Bush wasn't paid for any drills between April 16, 1972 -- the last time he flew with his old unit in Houston -- and October 28 and 29 of that year, just before the conclusion of the Alabama senatorial campaign in which Bush was working. The Six-Month Gap...
            Report Abuse
            • Author by bingo (August 20, 2009 2:19 pm ET)
                 
              none of which supports an assertion that...

              "...Bush dodged his national guard service."

              Byron York provided, chapter and verse, a summary of Bush's accumulated service "points"...upon which the satisfactory fulfillment of one's service obligation is based.

              While you might legitimately debate the degree or quality of that service, a suggestion that he "dodged his national guard service" is simply absurd and unsupported by fact.

              Report Abuse
      • Author by political_left-religious_right (August 18, 2009 10:07 am ET)
        10  
        It's pretty clear whose memory is clouded. Leave it to Tbone to defend the totally-refuted Swift Boat Vets.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by captfoster2 (August 18, 2009 10:09 am ET)
        8 1
        Tbone,

        You've proved yet again just how ignorant you are when it comes to actual facts and how to use them.

        Yes, you are correct that the documents used by Dan Rather and CBS were faked... but since there really are documents that prove beyond doubt that George Bush was AWOL and only got away with it because of his family name and the strangely timed death of Juniors C.O at the time (among other happenings)

        magnolia has a point as well... if Rather and CBS had so much influence, as you claimed... why did we not get a president Kerry??
        Report Abuse
        • Author by Tbone Slickens (August 18, 2009 10:25 am ET)
          1 14
          but since there really are documents that prove beyond doubt that George Bush was AWOL and only got away with it because of his family name and the strangely timed death of Juniors C.O at the time (among other happenings)


          Ah...you're getting it, but in a round about way. There are NO documents to support it. If it was true there should be. It was/is incumbent upon Danny/the left to prove it. He didn't and was fired, you can't but continue with the smear.

          *****************************TIN FOIL HAT ALERT*******************

          Now you're claiming the "strangely timed death of Juniors C.O." is part of the conspiracy!?

          My what lengths the left will go to connect dots and chase rabbits down holes!
          Report Abuse
          • Author by vhw28672478 (August 18, 2009 10:43 am ET)
            8 1
            You are wrong
            Report Abuse
            • Author by Tbone Slickens (August 18, 2009 11:31 am ET)
              2 15
              Yeah, people keep telling me that, but funny thing is they can't prove me wrong. Terrible thing those pesky facts. A former Attorney General agrees with me and five people were fired over this, so CBS agrees also.

              I notice you join a long and undistinguished line of people with no facts whatsoever to prove me wrong. Keep up the good work ol' chap!
              Report Abuse
              • Author by vhw28672478 (August 18, 2009 11:48 am ET)
                6 2
                you are wrong
                Report Abuse
              • Author by foghornleghorn (August 18, 2009 11:57 am ET)
                6 1
                I guess you missed the link above. Here it is again:

                http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601088&sid=ajMzu66Jhddo
                Report Abuse
                • Author by Tbone Slickens (August 19, 2009 8:56 am ET)
                    8
                  I didn't miss it, I dismissed it. You can file in court every day but it proves nothing. This is what it boils down to for Danny:

                  Quinn argued before the appeals court that Rather’s two remaining claims of breach of contract and breach of fiduciary duty should be dismissed, contending that the anchorman was the network’s employee and not a partner.


                  And come on...this is REALLY WHAT IS INVOLVED!

                  Rather, who earned about $6 million a year at CBS, now earns about $1.5 million at HDNet, a high-definition television channel co-founded by Mark Cuban.


                  I noticed hardly a mention of the forged docs in that brief?
                  Report Abuse
              • Author by snoopy (August 18, 2009 12:28 pm ET)
                13 2
                Since we're talking, let's recap issues about Bush's AWOL status that reichwingers have yet to display:

                Any pages from Bush's flight log
                Records from the Flight Inquiry Board convened after Bush was suspended as a pilot
                Any evidence of Bush's reclassification into another AFSC after suspension as a pilot
                Any photos of George Bush in a military uniform after 1972
                Anything at all from any Alabama unit with Bush's name on it
                Any copies of form 44a from the Alabama National Guard certifying attendance
                Air Force Form 142 (Aviation Service Audit Worksheet)
                Anything proving service (not just receipt of pay) by Bush between May 1972 and May 1973
                Report Abuse
                • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (August 18, 2009 1:24 pm ET)
                  10  
                  And his DD-214, proof of honorable discharge from the Service and his Service record.

                  All "missing" (how conveeeenient).
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by Col. Harlan Sanders (August 18, 2009 2:23 pm ET)
                    9 1
                    Koko, seems to be avoiding these items, and continuing his chanting of "FEB". Somebody must have convinced him that this was a pretty solid argument, and although he's being deliberately vague, I think it boils down to this;

                    If Bush avoided following the rules applied to average citizens, thanks to his elite status and family connections, why is there no evidence of the rules being properly followed regarding the investigation of his avoiding of the normal rules?

                    Sort of beats itself, don't it?
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by Tbone Slickens (August 19, 2009 9:03 am ET)
                      1 8
                      No Junior Sample, I have actually taken part in two FEB's, one as a witness and one as a board member. I know how they work and know that all of snoop dog's tin foil hat theories, at the bottom there will be an FEB if all is true as he asserts. It is more than a solid argument.

                      You've had five years guys. You still got nothing. I take that back. You got a major left wing news anchor canned along with five other minions of the left!

                      Great job boys! Keep your nose to the grindstone. With that kind of record maybe you'll bag a few more lions of the left!
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by snoopy (August 19, 2009 12:22 pm ET)
                        5  
                        So basically, you can't find a single one of them items that would prove Bush was AWOL and instead insist a priveledged son of a powerful politician would be held to the same standards as every other soldier. Sounds like someone screwed his wingnut on too tight this morning...
                        Report Abuse
                      • Author by snoopy (August 19, 2009 3:03 pm ET)
                        2  
                        BTW, I thought you were an expert on the UCMJ, having been involved in two FEB's and all. The national guard is not automatically held to the UCMJ, they have to be under direct control of the federal government for it to apply. For instance, if the florida national guard is responding to disaster relief in the state, they are responsible to florida. Alabama national guard was not under federal orders in 1972, ergo Bush could not be tried under UCMJ.
                        Report Abuse
                  • Author by mikehuck1976 (August 18, 2009 3:44 pm ET)
                    7 1
                    And his birth certificate.
                    Report Abuse
          • Author by captfoster2 (August 18, 2009 12:20 pm ET)
            7 2
            Yeah... the same kind of tin foil hats that right-wingers wear when it comes to the fake conspiracy that President Obama was born in Kenya when there is ample proof to the contrary.

            I won't even get into the one about Vince Foster
            Report Abuse
      • Author by fawltylogic (August 19, 2009 1:47 am ET)
        6  
        Dan Rather was fired. Did you hear of ANY consequences for the swift boat liars?
        Report Abuse
    • Author by terrapin53 (August 18, 2009 9:38 am ET)
      13 1
      The press is not fooled, they just don't care. New talking point on health care from the wingnutz now is illegals will get health care and this country will be invaded by every sick person outside this country. Heard it straight from some guy on talk radio thsi morning.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by phredicles (August 19, 2009 2:57 am ET)
        6  
        Well, now that you mention it, Canada already has that problem: People from south of the border come into their country to take advantage of their health care system. And they're not from Mexico.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by DellDolly (August 18, 2009 9:47 am ET)
      4  
      Fair debate is essential to a functioning democracy. The loonies on the right aren't giving us a fair debate.

      As I've read this site over the past few months before I signed up, I've seen that most right-leaning posters aren't interested in a fair debate either. They try to change the topic, or even outright lie.

      It's a sad time for our democracy that they won't participate in a fair debate.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by epkklk851 (August 18, 2009 10:03 am ET)
      13 2
      When I started watching the news somewhere around 1970, the news was different. The newscasters were all older men with a strong writing and reporting background. They viewed it as their job to inform and educate the people they broadcast to. These guys started to die off or retire in my college years, and the 24/7 news cycle started with the advent of CNN. A big change started to happen, the newscasters got younger and prettier, and it got a lot more "personal" or as it should really be described: gossipy. With Fox in the picture, it has become little better than the National Enquirer. "Hello, I'm Mandy and I'll be your newscaster tonight, our specials are an exclusive interview with Britney Spears!" This is no way to learn about the world and until we devest ourselves of this "infotainment" approach to world events, we will keep turning out semi-literate, angry people who can only parrot back what they heard on Fox. And you do have to hand it to Fox, they found a group to connect to and gave them a voice. Just what the cost of all this will be to society in general isn't clear yet, but I don't think it will be pretty.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by vwcat (August 18, 2009 10:21 am ET)
        12 2
        Epikklk, You feel exactly as I do. I remember a time when the news had responsible and mature newscasters who felt they needed to educate us about the issues. As a result we had a much more informed population.
        With CNN and the Reagan era, we saw the beginning of infotainment.
        But, yes, with Fox it was the abandoning of the responsibility by reporters and newscasters to educate the public on the issues.
        We had journalists become totally lazy, concerned solely with access and the need to be part of the inside georgetown crowd. More concern with being popular then with doing their job and standing up to power.
        Their response to educating the public is 'it's not my job'
        Report Abuse
        • Author by Col. Harlan Sanders (August 18, 2009 12:57 pm ET)
          11  
          Last night I turned on one of the "news" channels. The host was interviewing the couple who had the squirrel pop into their vacation photo, asking (seriously) if the photo had been doctored.
          Report Abuse
      • Author by pags2 (August 19, 2009 2:14 am ET)
        3  
        The Big 3 networks caused the decline in journalism when they opted for news readers over journalists. ABC was the first to do that and tried to turn news into entertainment. There were a few true journalists that held on. Now there are no journalists. Fox has moved from the delivery of news to an all out propaganda machine that claims to be fair and balanced. Fox is the "newthink" Orwell warned us about. Every Fox news commentator has a political opinion that is expressed every chance they get to interject that talking point. This is in addition to Fox's political programs.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by darkmass (August 19, 2009 2:48 am ET)
        3  
        A big change started to happen, the newscasters got younger and prettier, and it got a lot more "personal" or as it should really be described: gossipy.
        Epkklk, you have it exactly right in your entire post. Bravo.

        Let me recommend this reading to you, you might call it an insider's view: http://www.truthout.org/article/leslie-griffith-thank-you-dan-rather
        Report Abuse
        • Author by epkklk851 (August 19, 2009 9:15 am ET)
          4  
          Thanks, I checked that story out. It was a gutsy piece of writing. I read Dan Rather's book "The Camera Never Blinks" as soon as it came to paperback about 30 years ago. I always liked Dan. I happened to be home from school when he made his flip remark to President Nixon. I was cheeky junior high student, so I loved it. My mother, not so much. Newspapers and PBS are about the only place that you can find real journalism these days. The rest is just models reading a teleprompter.
          Report Abuse
    • Author by tygerwilde (August 18, 2009 10:05 am ET)
      2  
      Very nice article, I have been very interested in politics for about the last 10 years and I really can't recall liberals using similar tactics during that time. Does anyone have an example of such an event?
      Report Abuse
    • Author by vwcat (August 18, 2009 10:14 am ET)
      11 1
      What really ticks me off is that the media went along with the lies by Palin and the gop in talking about Death Panels.
      This irresponsible behavior terrified millions of seniors.
      It is so callous and cold hearted as well as being completely irresponsible to terrify the elderly and make them believe our president wants to exterminate them.

      Over the years I have noticed how much the press just takes dictation from the right wing and how they rely alot on Drudge for their news.
      And they are like that Warner Bros. cartoon of the little dog jumping up and down and wanting the approval of the big dog, Spike.
      Spike in return treats the little dog like crap.
      The press is that little dog and the republicans they so want approval from and who treat them like garbage are Spike.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by foghornleghorn (August 18, 2009 2:42 pm ET)
        7  
        But in the end, Spike gets clobbored by the panther while the little dog beats up Sylvester and then the tables are turned.

        Does that mean there's still hope for media accountability?
        Report Abuse
        • Author by National_Insecurity (August 19, 2009 1:03 am ET)
          4 2
          Sounds like an (almost) wasted childhood. At least the morality tale remains.

          Let's be skeptical but not cynical that one day the media will be accountable. But remember, it's the guy in the big office who makes the decisions. And the decisions are ALL about ratings and advertising.

          "No bucks, No Rush Limbaugh" (to paraphrase Tom Wolfe)
          Report Abuse
    • Author by rtdavis11200 (August 18, 2009 10:27 am ET)
      11 1
      The media is taking advantage of the fact that Obama would not have been elected President in 2008 without the heavy turnout and energy of young first time democratic voters ages 18-30.


      They have not been represented by the media during this debate on healthcare reform.

      The media keeps polling and shaping the health care debate around town hall meetings and protest that are led by the bitter defeated party and does not include the young people who elected Obama.


      The conservatives and the media are allowing the powerful lobby groups who oppose health reform take advantage of the absence of the young democrats who voted for Obama and change by not having their voices heard in this possible coupe on health reform led by the powerful bluedog democrats and their allies.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by foghornleghorn (August 18, 2009 10:46 am ET)
        13  
        It's much simpler than that. As Bill Maher has said, this country has a sizable percentage of really stupid people who are easily led down the path to vote and protest against their best interest through fear and lies.

        And these are the people that usually yell the loudest. And the tabloid media loves nothing more than a dramatic scream fest.

        Hannity last night had the teabaggin' lady who turned out to be a Beck-o-phile. He flirted with her for about 10 minutes. Then his teaser for the next segment was something like "Cindy Sheehan is back and guess where she's protesting now?" (spoken with distinct disdain in his voice)
        Report Abuse
        • Author by fairliberal (August 18, 2009 1:46 pm ET)
          2 14
          Maher is right, look at all the fools that Acorn gets to register multiple times and buses to protests.

          And the dems have long been "paying off" minority voters and the poor with occasional hikes in the minimun wage and welfare benefits. It keeps them right where they want them.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (August 18, 2009 1:56 pm ET)
            9 2
            Commode Boy, you really need to follow the old adage of keeping your mouth shut so people aren't certain you're a moron, instead of opening it and removing all doubt.
            Report Abuse
          • Author by foghornleghorn (August 18, 2009 2:39 pm ET)
            9  
            Well, maybe if the Rethugs hadn't increased the number of poor people during Dubya's term, then this wouldn't be a problem, would it?
            Report Abuse
          • Author by Old_Benjamin (August 18, 2009 4:08 pm ET)
            9 1
            And the dems have long been "paying off" minority voters and the poor with occasional hikes in the minimun wage and welfare benefits. It keeps them right where they want them.
            fl

            Did you come to that conclusion by reading more from...

            http://www.parisbusinessreview.net/
            Report Abuse
          • Author by mikehuck1976 (August 18, 2009 4:16 pm ET)
            10 1
            See, this is the problem with what is left of the Republican party and what it has done to the political conversation in this country. For whatever reasons, the Democratic party has now taken the conservative positions, the Republicans now take the fringe right-wing positions, and no one argues the progressive left positions that (according to recent election results) are a large portion of the American elecorate. The fringe left you can forget about except for those so far on the left fringe that they are actually one with the far-right fringe - they are all at the townhall meetings together.

            When it comes to the market, the left used to argue for nationaliztion of some industries that are failing so that the government can share in the profits. Or at least in busting up the monopolies so that they can never again be too large to fail. The right used to argue that the free market cannot handle this kind of collapse so we should guarantee loans for these kinds of economic meltdowns to ensure that commerce keeps rolling. Now, the Democrats argue for propping up these companies that we have allowed to become so large and the Republicans argue that this is what Hitler would do and we are all becoming socialist, facsist, marxist, whatever - frankly it's hard to keep track of all their nonsensical claims.

            When it comes to man-made causes of global warming and curbing these affects the left used to argue for levying financial burdens against the industries that cause most of these pollutants in an effort to curb their pollution and to use the money to clean up the messes. The right used to argue that the solution was in more of a hybrid cap-and-trade legislation to encourage these companies to willingly police themselves. Now, the Democrats argue for cap-and-trade and the Republicans argue that "cows fart carbon dioxide" and "God tells us through the Bible that all is well".

            When it comes to healthcare for profit in this country the left should be arguing for single-payer (or at least something closer to it) while the right should be arguing for more of a co-op hybrid to use the insurance industry rather than dismantle it. Instead, the Democrats argue for a co-op hybrid while the Republicans argue that Obama killed your grandmother and ACORN is standing right behind you! Medicare is tyranny!

            There are many real discussions to be had between the adults in this country. Unfortunately, the Republicans have given their party to the fringe and we still keep pretending as if their arguments are worthy of the adult discussion. They are not.

            What would be great is if we could merge what is left of the respectable center in both parties into the right in this country and let the progressives have their voice heard in the Democratic party. Then let the crazies who have to carry rifles to townhall meetings to make up for their lack of manhood, or don't know the difference between methane and carbon dioxide, or think they speak to God personally, sit on Fox News and spout their garbage and let us laugh and laugh and laugh at them. The way we do now with the crazy lefties that think One World Order is coming or that we should we choose communism over capitalism.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by foghornleghorn (August 18, 2009 5:04 pm ET)
              9 1
              I'll give you this - if someone can prove that the Republicans' master plan was to become a base of far-right full-on crazy racists/fundamentalists just to shift the Democrats from their center-left position to the center-right, why I might have to raise a toast for such a diabolical plot.

              <tin foil hat off>

              Nope. It just seems to have worked out that way.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by citizenbyright (August 18, 2009 6:11 pm ET)
                  4
                Thats very much what the Neo-Cons were/are up to, and that is very much how a symbiotic two-Party doupoly 'works'. (For those at the helm)
                Report Abuse
          • Author by eweston8542983 (August 18, 2009 10:08 pm ET)
            4  
            Yet somehow the only group convicted of voter registration fraud in the last election cycle was, The Young Political Majors. Somehow they and their leadership are of no interest. Must be that dad blamed liberal somehow setting up an honest neocon. Yea that's the ticket.
            Report Abuse
          • Author by fawltylogic (August 19, 2009 1:56 am ET)
            6  
            And the dems have long been "paying off" minority voters and the poor with occasional hikes in the minimun wage and welfare benefits. It keeps them right where they want them.

            Yeah, I can't believe the poor and minorities vote for the party that actually represents their interests. That's just crazy.
            Report Abuse
          • Author by historygeek001 (August 19, 2009 1:00 pm ET)
            4  
            fairliberal:

            You claim ACORN "gets" people to register multiple times and buses people to protests.

            First, ACORN does nothing of the sort. You're lying again.

            Second, you say that the dems "pay off" minority voters and the poor by increasing the minimum wage and welfare benefits. This is also ridiculous. It would be more accurate to say that the Republicans have been paying off the rich by reducing their taxes, reducing corporate taxes to the point that many corporations actually don't pay income taxes, and openly lying about things that Democrats propose in Congress ("Obama's health care plan will kill old people!").

            Once again, you're proving that you are neither fair nor liberal and don't know what you're talking about.
            Report Abuse
      • Author by vwcat (August 18, 2009 11:06 am ET)
        11  
        rtdavis, you wrote that the media keeps polling and shaping health care. Actually they are obsessively polling on Obama. thousands of times more then anyone else.
        It's something I've noticed over the past few months. I note that when a republican president has taken office in his first year he is given some leaway in the job. The press usually backs away from criticizing and gives the guy room to breath and get adjusted to the job.
        But, with Clinton and obama, especially Obama, the press has been on their backs from the beginning. Heavy criticism, obsessive gotchas, ect.
        Any little mistake is blown into major events. The constant stream of nitpicking.
        In turn, these two have been wiped out in their polling.
        This leads me to speculate that the obsessive polling has to do with the media wanting to shape opinion and thinking on the democratic presidents to one of negative views by the public.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by fawltylogic (August 19, 2009 2:06 am ET)
          4  
          On this day 8 years ago, then President Bush was on a week vacation on his home in Texas, with a few breaks here and there for photo ops like this one http://www.nps.gov/parkoftheweek/assets/photo/romo-presbush.jpg where he pretends to work in a national park.

          A few weeks earlier, on August 6, he had been informed about, and refused to take action on, that Osama Bin Laden was "determined to strike in the US".

          I don't really remember what exactly the press was up to. Probably something really important, like trying to score the best nickname by Dubya.
          Report Abuse
    • Author by annagranfors (August 18, 2009 10:56 am ET)
      2  
      Republicans, much as it may seem so, are not COMPLETELY stupid. They know that putting their Brooks Brother mobs in smaller venues makes it look like the debate is the always-popular "50/50", or better, especially when reported by a complicit media. Contrast that to whenever "we" took to the streets, as in the pre-Iraq protests. We had MILLIONS. A few idiot GOPers (A Gathering of Iggles, anybody?) tried similar "protests", and on average brought out 147 people.

      Our pitchforks and torches in the streets, immediately and often, would be a very good thing. Unfortunately, many Americans correctly fear that they'll be at very least tased.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by only_myschly3567 (August 18, 2009 12:27 pm ET)
      8 1
      I wish Cronkite could come back from the dead and teach these idiots how it's done!
      Report Abuse
      • Author by National_Insecurity (August 19, 2009 1:07 am ET)
        3 1
        Like some Halloween movie for news junkies?

        I sense a screenplay in there....no wait. Less than a majority of Americans alive today have any idea what a journalist is supposed to do.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by dewdrop_8171931 (August 18, 2009 12:43 pm ET)
      7 1
      If these so-called news organizations were actual journalists they would point out the dangers that these mini-mobs impose on not only the President's safety, but the safety of the people whoactually showed up at the town-hall meetings in hopes of gaining useful information. Instead, these fools used the footage as entertainment. I'm sorry, but I don't find it entertaining to watch racist idiots carrying guns to a place where my President is speaking.

      Representative Phil Gingrey of the backwards state of GA is actually encouraging people toshow up with assualt rifles. WTF does an assault rifle have to do with healthcare?

      Looks like a frigging lynch mob in my opinion.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by Col. Harlan Sanders (August 18, 2009 1:11 pm ET)
        11 2
        The GOP seems to be putting all of their hopes into one mission, the dumbing down of America, or at least half of America, enough of it to keep them viable as a party.

        Political discourse has entered the mode of the first grade teacher who insists there are no stupid questions. I understood the purpose of that statement as a kid, to prevent kids from being hesitant to question for fear of embarrassment, but there are always exceptions to the rule.

        For example, asking a question to which the answer was given 10 seconds before is a stupid question. It indicates the questioner was not paying attention, or is just not very bright.

        Freedom of speech is a right that should be universal and unlimited, but a certain respect for that right is expected. If you're going to take up other people's valuable time by participating in a discussion, common decency says that you should be informed enough that you're not ignorant of the fundamentals of the topic.

        I'm pretty sick of hearing the whining victims on the right playing the victim, and crying that they're being silenced by not being allowed to dominate town hall meetings repeating things that are well-established as being lies.

        If I were to organize a mob to attend a GOP town hall, and scream questions about fairies or Bigfoot, I wouldn't be surprised if I wasn't interviewed by the media for my opinions, or if I was not considered a serious participant in the "debate".
        Report Abuse
        • Author by Col. Harlan Sanders (August 18, 2009 1:22 pm ET)
          11  
          Also, something interesting I've been seeing for quite a while now; Many right wingers I've heard on tv and radio will describe a perceived dishonest attack against their side as "Swift Boating".

          They've adopted the term, accurately, to mean a calculated and false campaign to destroy a political opponent, while never acknowledging that the original Swift Boaters were liars.

          On Planet Wingnut, where nothing has to make sense, except in this moment, right now.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by worrierking (August 18, 2009 2:04 pm ET)
            9 1
            You got that right Colonel.

            It's disregard anything I've ever said before but listen and believe everything I'm saying now.

            And it works. Which proves that people only hear what they want to hear. It's an automatic response. I'm willing to bet that most of the birfers still believe the Kenyan birth certificate to be genuine, even after the guy who created it admitted to the hoax.

            It's all about the now, there's no such thing as then.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by Col. Harlan Sanders (August 18, 2009 2:26 pm ET)
              9 1
              I think that's why some of the wingnuts at this site get so upset and confused when you mention their past comments. They're not used to a world where yesterday exists (except when it serves their purposes), a world where they're accountable for their words, and their credibility is affected by the lies they've told before today.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by juliajayne1 (August 18, 2009 9:08 pm ET)
                6  
                You don't have anybody in particular in mind, do you?....;-0)
                Report Abuse
                • Author by Col. Harlan Sanders (August 18, 2009 11:22 pm ET)
                  3  
                  hehe.. three or four , actually. Seems to be a common troll trait.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (August 19, 2009 8:10 am ET)
                    4  
                    I'm glad you typed that, because it's very hard to say out loud.
                    Report Abuse
    • Author by jflz201884 (August 18, 2009 1:58 pm ET)
      8  
      The parallel Eric cites (health care mobs = Swift Boat Vets) is accurate. But while the Swift Boat lies were successful, the health care thuggery is bound to fail. Swift Boaters needed only to make their falsehoods stick for the short time before the 2004 election. Health care screamers, by contrast, must peddle their nonsense for many months. No elections are imminent, and congressional Democrats have plenty of time to coordinate with President Obama.

      When the noise subsides, the public will notice the nation still needs a thoughtful, evenhanded health coverage overhaul.

      Incidentally, while the mainstream news media performed miserably in the dog days of 2004, they did better in August '05, when the story to cover was war protester Cindy Sheehan's vigil adjacent George W. Bush's ersatz Texas ranch. Sheehan's calling attention to pre-war falsehoods was too late to head off Bush's second term. But the war protester's compelling story (immediately preceding Katrina) helped pave the way for Democrats' 2006 and 2008 election victories, which in turn made it possible to overhaul the health care system in 2009-2010.

      Jerry Elsea


      Report Abuse
      • Author by National_Insecurity (August 19, 2009 1:25 am ET)
        5  
        Jerry,
        I think you make good points, but here's a key distinction that is missing.

        Americans could see with their own eyes that something was terribly wrong in New Orleans and the Gulf after Katrina. Day one we were shocked. By day 3 & 4 people were aghast. Watching Brownie & Bush in split screen with bodies floating at that moment reminded people of watching Baghdad Bob deny reality while the split screen had the US tanks racing into Baghdad airport.

        No matter what Bush said, we could see it was false.

        Cut to:

        During Bush's big Social Security deception in the spring of 2005 the news media never addressed the facts of the deception, but eventually started to showcase seniors talking to their congressional representatives.

        Seniors KNEW that this was a bad idea. Many were old enough to have been children when Social Security was created and they saw how terrible it was to get old. Literally growing old was a curse of poverty. My great grandparents ran the "county home" for the destitute before Social Security was created. These still existed when I was a child and a visit there always ended with my parents' warning that "you don't want to have to live there when you get old!"

        I will assert that Social Security privatization opposition was an example of a natural civic reaction to a government policy which they didn't understand at first, but eventually opposed. To be sure, seniors were worried and skeptical. I attended regularly scheduled town halls with my Democratic congressman where this was one of many topics raised.

        But people came to listen and question and after hearing the plan they rose up to oppose it. And a darned good thing too, as the collapse of the market and the financial deceptions were a perfect example of why privatization of Social Security was a fraud.

        If the health care folks behaved like the Social Security folks I would believe them. But this is something completely different and a lot more visceral.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by Doug-Life (August 18, 2009 2:45 pm ET)
      1 3
      This is the way politics works. Nothing has changed since I've been able to vote. ALWAYS VOTE AGAINST THE INCUMBENT!
      Report Abuse
      • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (August 19, 2009 1:43 pm ET)
        3 1
        Yeah, why bother wasting all the time it takes to stay informed? Just follow a moronic rule like "ALWAYS VOTE AGAINST THE INCUMBENT!" and the world will get better all by itself.

        You're an ignorant fool.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by moneyisnotspeech (August 18, 2009 4:18 pm ET)
      4 1
      this is an Hegelian game to doop the American people and claim it as a victory.

      We will end up with "no fault" health insurance. Those who live in no fault auto insurance states understand government mandated extortion on behalf of insurance. The money DOES NOT go to a pool but are forced premiums paid to private insurers which go directly to their bottom line increasing stock prices and in turn dividends salaries and bonuses. Whenever a catastrophic injury takes place those costs are given to the state anyhow.

      The "public option" is a way for the most costly problems to be dumped onto the tax payer, privatizing the profits and socializing the losses (this should all be very familiar to us by now) In this way the for profit side will be able to keep the cash cows that pay their premiums and never make claims while forcing those who would actually cost them money into the public option. This has the added benefit of over burdening the public option so that later it can be pointed to as a failure "see single payer doesn't work" This is of course a massive fraud

      Obama's "grassroots" did not show up to support him because we support single payer. Now with the signaling that any reform could be lost and the "public option" in particular we find more and more of the left showing up to fight for Obamacare which in the end is a massive give away to big pharma and the health insurers but in the end will be held up as a victory that it was able to be done at all. These "Tea baggers" are nothing but flack to create political cover, brown shirts and frauds...WAKE UP!

      HR 676 single payer healthcare now!

      As for the point of the article, the media is owned by the same interests that own Washington and the media's right to lie is protected speech. The MSM in this country is a joke, a bunch of empty headed self important camera whore's whose job is not dependent on journalistic ability but willingness to sell swill and turn a buck. These are the trusted sources that are still around. Newscorp/Faux News are propaganda machines, the A/V department of the Republican party and further metastasized the cancer that the Free market frauds created with "Conservative"/Chicago school/Milton friedmen economics.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by TheAncients (August 18, 2009 4:48 pm ET)
      3 11
      I see. So it's ok to yell and scream when you want to end the war, but not when you don't want government run--and paid by the people--health care.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3vauUPUAa0&feature=related

      The Democrats (and MSNBC) are just as wicked and vile as the Republicans (and Fox). One side says you're not patriotic if you don't support an illegal and unjust war (How's that Afghanistan war going by the way?). The other side says you're a Nazi if you don't want the government to have it's hand in your life from cradle to grave.

      Drop the pretense folks. Democrats and Republicans have no interest in anything but what helps them. You (the American people) are nothing but food to them--meant to be taxed to death until you can barely survive.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by foghornleghorn (August 18, 2009 5:06 pm ET)
        7 1
        Beep!! Beep!! Honk!! Honk!!

        FALSE EQUIVALENCY ALERT!!

        It that the only opinion/comment you have in your repertoir, Mr./Mrs. Ancients, that both political parties are just as bad and there is nothing good about government?

        Please come up with some new material.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by TheAncients (August 18, 2009 5:21 pm ET)
          2 9
          Just like Media Matters, huh? All they do lately is whine about the media. The same thing Fox news and other conservative sites/pundits did when Bush was in office.

          And do tell, what is good about government? The $23 trillion you and I and the rest of America is supposed to pay back in promises from government? Or do you prefer the open borders that h ave paved the way for 30 million illegals to flood our country? Or maybe it's the illegal wars in Iraq/Afghanistan/and possible now Iran with not one shred of evidence to document a harm to this country? Or maybe, you like the banker bailout that your boy Obama voted for that, by many counts 9-to-1 against, gave banks more money? Or maybe you like that Obama wants to give more power to the Federal Reserve--an entity that does nothing but continue to devalue our money every day by printing up more and more worthless paper.

          My calling Pelosi out was spot on. Just like I called Bush out for his dictator-like ways. Obama is no better. No end to the way. Higher government spending. Hate crime bills that destroy the first amendnment.

          Maybe if you'd quit towing the company line of the Dems, you'd see the country for what it is--a shell of its former greatness.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by congero6189599 (August 18, 2009 5:40 pm ET)
            7 1
            Craig(the ancients)you high?
            Report Abuse
          • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (August 18, 2009 7:27 pm ET)
            8 1
            Just like Media Matters, huh? All they do lately is whine about the media.
            Looks like somebody neglected to understand the mission statement.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by juliajayne1 (August 18, 2009 9:11 pm ET)
              6  
              Hey, he was dropped on his head as a baby. Cut the slacker some slack ;-)
              Report Abuse
              • Author by TheAncients (August 18, 2009 10:43 pm ET)
                1 9
                How cute. Calling me names. Typical response from those ensconced in the camps of either the left or right. Too bad you're so blindly loyal to a party that you can't see you're being played for fools. By the time you wake the up the revolution will have passed you, or you'll be completely enslaved by your loving government. God help you all.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by NewBee (August 19, 2009 12:26 am ET)
                  5  
                  How cute. Calling me names.
                  If you think those are names, you are more deluded than we thought, which is saying something.
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by snoopy (August 19, 2009 12:28 am ET)
                  7  
                  Says the blindly loyal reichpublican who continues to vote against his self interests because rush tells him to...
                  Report Abuse
                • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (August 19, 2009 8:13 am ET)
                  5  
                  Too bad you're so blindly loyal to a party that you can't see you're being played for fools.
                  And you dolts have been the GOP orchestra for decades. And your music stinks.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by Col. Harlan Sanders (August 19, 2009 1:31 pm ET)
                    7  
                    There seems to be a real surge in the number of Republicans who suddenly see both parties as exactly the same. Very helpful of them to bring their impartial enlightened views here.

                    I guess they figure they'll have more luck in trying to discourage liberals from participating in democracy than in trying to attract anybody to their rapidly self-destructing party.

                    The "Always vote against the Incumbent!!" advice above is the real winner. A sentiment I've been hearing more often from those who voted for Reagan and W. twice. They seem to be very opposed to second terms on principle, and by "on principle" I mean "when a Dem is in the White House".
                    Report Abuse
    • Author by bingo (August 18, 2009 6:49 pm ET)
        8
      For several crucial weeks during the campaign, journalists turned away from the pile-up of Swift Boat falsehoods and contradictions, rarely daring to call the Swift Boat attack out for what it really was -- a hoax.


      BZZZZT ! Sorry Boehlert, yer out of the Cash Cab...again.

      Let's see what FactCheck.org has to say about the Swiftvet's "falsehoods and contradictions"...

      At this point, 35 years later and half a world away, we see no way to resolve which of these versions of reality is closer to the truth.

      FactCheck.org


      So sayeth FactCheck.org.

      P.S. Hey Boehlert, did I somehow overlook your public correction for misquoting Al French's affidavit...not once, but twice?
      Report Abuse
      • Author by congero6189599 (August 18, 2009 7:25 pm ET)
        7  
        I'd say this money buys alot of liars :not been honest.

        Adrian Lonsdale: And he lacks the capacity to lead.

        Larry Thurlow: When he chips were down, you could not count on John Kerry.

        Bob Elder: John Kerry is no war hero.

        Grant Hibbard: He betrayed all his shipmates...he lied before the Senate.

        Shelton White: John Kerry betrayed the men and women he served with in Vietnam.

        Joe Ponder: He dishonored his country...he most certainly did.

        Bob Hildreth: I served with John Kerry...

        Bob Hildreth (off camera) : John Kerry cannot be trusted.

        Where the Money Comes From

        Although the word "Republican" does not appear in the ad, the group's financing is highly partisan. The source of the Swift Boat group's money wasn't known when it first surfaced, but a report filed July 15 with the Internal Revenue Services now shows its initial funding came mainly from a Houston home builder, Bob J. Perry, who has also given millions to the Republican party and Republican candidates, mostly in Texas, including President Bush and Republican Majority Leader Tom DeLay, whose district is near Houston

        Perry gave $100,000 of the $158,750 received by the Swift Boat group through the end of June, according to its disclosure report.

        Perry and his wife Doylene also gave more than $3 million to Texas Republicans during the 2002 elections, according to a database maintained by the Institute on Money in State Politics. The Perrys also were among the largest Republican donors in neighboring Louisiana, where they gave $200,000, and New Mexico, where they gave $183,000, according to the database

        At the federal level the Perrys have given $359,825 since 1999, including $6,000 to Bush's campaigns and $27,325 to DeLay and his political action committee, Americans for a Republican Majority, according to a database maintained by the Center for Responsive Politics.
        All this proves is those that changed got bought out and are partisan. Try again!
        Report Abuse
      • Author by mary59 (August 18, 2009 8:46 pm ET)
        9  
        The only astonishing sentence in factchecks' thorough debunking of the swiftboat liars was the concluding sentence, which didn't fit at all with their other information. Any OBJECTIVE observer would conclude with: "it's obvious that military records and the first-hand accounts offered by Kerry's crew are compelling and the attack ads are not credible."

        Report Abuse
        • Author by juliajayne1 (August 18, 2009 9:15 pm ET)
          7  
          Hey now, bingo is a dog after all. What do you expect, Ms. Mary?
          Report Abuse
      • Author by pearlene_scott1602 (August 19, 2009 11:56 am ET)
        5  
        Ad features vets who claim Kerry "lied" to get Vietnam medals. But other witnesses disagree -- and so do Navy records...

        Summary

        A group funded by the biggest Republican campaign donor in Texas began running an attack ad Aug. 5 in which former Swift Boat veterans claim Kerry lied to get one of his two decorations for bravery and two of his three purple hearts.

        But the veterans who accuse Kerry are contradicted by Kerry's former crewmen, and by Navy records.

        One of the accusers says he was on another boat "a few yards" away during the incident which won Kerry the Bronze Star, but the former Army lieutenant whom Kerry plucked from the water that day backs Kerry's account. In an Aug. 10 opinion piece in the conservative Wall Street Journal, Rassmann (a Republican himself) wrote that the ad was "launched by people without decency" who are "lying" and "should hang their heads in shame."

        And on Aug. 19, Navy records came to light also contradicting the accusers. One of the veterans who says Kerry wasn't under fire was himself awarded a Bronze Star for aiding others "in the face of enemy fire" during the same incident.

        Although the word "Republican" does not appear in the ad, the group's financing is highly partisan. The source of the Swift Boat group's money wasn't known when it first surfaced, but a report filed July 15 with the Internal Revenue Services now shows its initial funding came mainly from a Houston home builder, Bob J. Perry, who has also given millions to the Republican party and Republican candidates, mostly in Texas, including President Bush and Republican Majority Leader Tom DeLay, whose district is near Houston

        Perry gave $100,000 of the $158,750 received by the Swift Boat group through the end of June, according to its disclosure report.



        Perry and his wife Doylene also gave more than $3 million to Texas Republicans during the 2002 elections, according to a database maintained by the Institute on Money in State Politics. The Perrys also were among the largest Republican donors in neighboring Louisiana, where they gave $200,000, and New Mexico, where they gave $183,000, according to the database

        Report Abuse
    • Author by congero6189599 (August 18, 2009 6:52 pm ET)
      8 1
      Woman yells ‘Heil Hitler’ to Jewish man praising Israel’s national health care system.
      Conservatives have strenuously denied that there is any anti-Semitism on display by anti-health reform protesters at town hall meetings nationwide — despite all the evidence to the contrary. Last week, Las Vegas radio station KDWN AM720 sponsored a “contentious” town hall, emceed by conservative morning show host Heidi Harris. At the event, local news stations were interviewing an Israeli man who was praising the “fantastic” “national health care” in Israel. During his remarks, a woman yelled out, “Heil Hitler!” The man stopped, became visibly upset, and exclaimed, “Did you hear this? She say to a Jew, ‘Heil Hitler’! Hear? I’m a Jew! You’re telling me, ‘Heil Hitler’? Shame of you!” After he angrily confronts her, the woman mocks him by making a crying sound to imply he is a whining baby.
      You can see the whole video of this incident on thinkprogress.org, it's worth viewing!
      Report Abuse
      • Author by mary59 (August 18, 2009 8:35 pm ET)
        5  
        There are no words.....
        Report Abuse
        • Author by eweston8542983 (August 18, 2009 10:26 pm ET)
          4  
          I got a couple, but can't use them here, I'm uncertain about the spelling. Gorfdwezel or say spindeldorf, not sure, not sure. Possibly somebody's sweetheart. Someone worth changing your genetic code to avoid.
          Report Abuse
      • Author by TheAncients (August 18, 2009 10:50 pm ET)
          13
        Was this guy even alive during the Holocaust? Doubtful. Yet he plays that as a crutch like so many today.

        And of course, more name calling here as opposed to say, trying to find out what has her so riled up. No, it's 'Oh, that poor Jewish man who wasn't alive during the Holocaust. Let's take pity on him."

        I bet this is used as an example to pass the Hate Crime bill that will restrict free speech.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by snoopy (August 19, 2009 12:18 am ET)
          5  
          Yeah, let's not consider the idea that he might have had parents or grandparents who suffered at the hands of the Nazi's, right? I mean, just because the US basically helped create Israel by shipping holocaust survivors to the country doesn't mean he most likely had some relative who was imprisoned in a death camp, or perhaps killed...
          Report Abuse
        • Author by NewBee (August 19, 2009 12:32 am ET)
          4  
          I bet this is used as an example to pass the Hate Crime bill that will restrict free speech.
          Except that the bill doesn't restrict free speech, but nice try.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (August 19, 2009 8:18 am ET)
            6  
            The ones screaming the loudest about "free speech" restrictions (which don't exist) are just angry that they can't use the n-word in public any more.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by epkklk851 (August 19, 2009 9:21 am ET)
              5  
              That's a terrible thing to say, however it is really true, too. It is mostly rightwingers who complain about "political correctness" because they can't say things that are blatantly racist, sexist, or intolerant without being called out on it and they are mad about it. I've experienced some it first hand. You have to laugh when it happens because otherwise, you would cry.
              Report Abuse
        • Author by foghornleghorn (August 19, 2009 12:41 pm ET)
          3  
          trying to find out what has her so riled up.

          (hint - she thinks he's for health care reform)

          So tell us, are you for maintaining a system in which a 2-hour visit to the emergency room costs someone $8,000?
          Report Abuse
        • Author by historygeek001 (August 19, 2009 1:11 pm ET)
          4  
          Ancients: you're disgusting.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by pearlene_scott1602 (August 19, 2009 3:10 pm ET)
          2  
          Was this guy even alive during the Holocaust? Doubtful. Yet he plays that as a crutch like so many today.


          See for yourself!
          Woman At Vegas Town Hall Meeting Yells "Heil Hitler" At Jewish Man Who Praised Israeli Health Care...

          Events, like the Holocaust, Slavery and Jim Crow don't happen in a vacuum, they effect GENERATIONS not just those who experienced it.


          Report Abuse
          • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (August 19, 2009 3:54 pm ET)
            2  
            I wasn't alive then, and I'm not Jewish, but I saw the films of the liberation of the concentration camps, and it affected me deeply.

            So take your "Was this guy even alive during the Holocaust? Doubtful. Yet he plays that as a crutch like so many today." and shove it where the moon don't shine, bigot.
            Report Abuse
    • Author by WordBloom (August 18, 2009 9:02 pm ET)
      4  
      Jeff Zucker,

      Regarding Meet the Press broadcast on August 16,2009:

      Having watched Meet the Press regularly for 10 years, I have never witnessed such a failure to seize upon a critical journalistic opportunity. I will assume David Gregory spent a great deal of research and preparation time with NBC Legal council hammering out what he could and could not ask Mr. Armey.

      The result was pathetic. Go ahead and change the program to the Dick Armey Hour, brought to you by FreeDumbWorks. I’m sorry that NBC has bowed to intimidation and has become merely a mouthpiece for lobbyist groups; the same groups upon which it should be reporting. It’s transparent to even a casual viewer that business has interfered with journalism.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by Haram Kufar (August 19, 2009 12:18 am ET)
      2  
      It's all about entertainment. Rush says he's an entertainer but he sounds dead serious.
      Drama in the town hall makes great TV. 24 hour TV News is a voracious beast. It thrives on friction, bombast and noise. TV is the fastest way to the reptile brain where people's fear lives. Fox Opinion Network does this better than the others. Facts be damned when Roger Ailes runs the show.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by edrossinoelwein9669 (August 19, 2009 1:02 am ET)
      1 13
      Really hard to demonize a leaderless group isn't it? Hard to Freeze and Isolate someone who is not there. Calling the thousands of people who are legitimately concerned and mostly opposed to ObamaCare "Mini-Mobs" is really funny. like the Swift Boat Veterans, this 'revolt' against a money grubbing, power grabbing bunch of socialist wackos is real.
      Too bad MMFA, you lose.
      P.S. We'll still be here the next time :)
      Report Abuse
      • Author by congero6189599 (August 19, 2009 1:12 am ET)
        5 1
        spoken like a true idiot!
        Report Abuse
      • Author by Easy to refute wingnuts (August 19, 2009 8:19 am ET)
        4  
        P.S. We'll still be here the next time :)
        You're not all here now.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by worrierking (August 19, 2009 8:34 am ET)
        5  
        "We'll still be here the next time"?

        Pretty sure about that?

        Those who've been screaming the loudest at town hall meetings are for the most part, elderly and working people.

        As more people lose insurance and eventually their homes because of catastrophic illness, the older people will be sharing their homes with their children and grand children who've lost their own. Heath care costs are the main cause of bankruptcy in this country.

        As those people with jobs who show up and scream lose their jobs due to downsizing or plant closing, they'll see how the status quo will take everything they own because people can't afford insurance premiums on unemployment.

        Once again, Americans are angry about the state of the country and they're taking it out on themselves.

        It's been going on since before industrialization and will probably continue until America is just a memory.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by len chaitin (August 19, 2009 12:14 pm ET)
      2  
      I think I agree with Cannonball. The media is given free reign to lie to us for the benefit of the Republicans because Democrats in Congress do not attack the media for spreading lies. Imagine if the media treated Republicans as they do Democrats.

      I think it is not just the media that is the problem. It is also the Democrats in Congress who go along with the media lies, i.e., Max Baucus, Ben Nelson, Congressmen from the South.
      Report Abuse
    • Author by lewislaw7153 (August 19, 2009 12:22 pm ET)
      2  
      Interesting that no one on FOX has seen any of these NAZI OBAMA reference signs, isn't it??

      Fox is clearly outraged when a progressive references a NAZI OBAMA sign, as was Michelle Malkin denouncing the 11-year old 'Obama plant' who asked Mr. Obama about all the 'mean signs' being held by protesters outside the townhall . .

      Can these protesters honestly compare our gov't to Nazis or socialists; are they just lemmings and listen to fox; or do they just pull these words outta their butts??
      Report Abuse
      • Author by Cannonball (August 19, 2009 2:43 pm ET)
        5  
        They're afraid. People are afraid of change and when their fears are exegerated by misleading "news" reports, they get unhinged. some can't even vocalize their fears.

        However, some of them fear Obama for his ethnicity and hate that a black family is enjoying itself at the White House. BTW, I love the Obama family and love having little kids in the White House again. Even if he were a Reagan-lovin' conservative, I'd still enjoy those great kids.

        But, back to my point: Some people are racist, or should I say xenophobic, and fear that empowering recognizable ethnic groups will weaken the old white guy club's grip on the reins of power in this country. And, you know what? They are RIGHT! Sorry for the yelling, but I am so glad they are right. Bring it on! Maybe someday most our janitors will not be black, our roofers latino and our cabbies Indian or middle easterners. Maybe some of our bankers will be black, some accountants will be latinos, some of our doctors will be (oh wait, many are already). Anyway, you get my drift. When more than half the country are not "white" maybe they will vote in their best interests and then all people will get fair and equal treatment.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by nan4tjn (August 19, 2009 1:52 pm ET)
        5
      YOu don't need the Republicans to pass this crap bill so pass it already.
      When that happens I hope all you that wanted this end up having to wait 6+ months to have life threatening treatment just like it happens to those with UHC.
      Medicare/medicade is run by the government, military is run by the government, schools are run by the government Social Security is run by the government they'll do just as good job with health care as they do with the other things they run. Yeah you'll be sorry!
      Report Abuse
      • Author by Scotty Johnson Sr. (August 19, 2009 3:07 pm ET)
        2  
        When that happens I hope all you that wanted this end up having to wait 6+ months to have life threatening treatment
        This is telling. You "hope" that government fails. This is why government programs are consistently underfunded by the right-wing. They have an unproven ideology that government should be killed (drowned in a bathtub was the allusion) and they do their best to see that government programs are perceived by the public as ineffective. It's the ultimate self-fulfilling prophecy.

        If UHC, as you put it, is so horrible then why don't these countries that have it change to a private system? Why are the people in these countries healthier than Americans? The majority of the industrialized world has solved this problem with demonstrable results in health care outcomes and cost control. The Randians shouldn't be allowed to prevent America from benefiting by this proven wisdom.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by Old_Benjamin (August 19, 2009 4:08 pm ET)
        2  
        When that happens I hope all you that wanted this end up having to wait 6+ months to have life threatening treatment just like it happens to those with UHC.


        I'm confused by your post. Are you suggesting countries with UHC have something akin to "death panels" which ration out this "life threatening treatment". Somehow, I don't think that's right.

        If you meant that places with UHC somehow don't treat citizens with life threatening conditions in a timely manner, you are wrong.

        And quite amazing that you have such disregard for the troops...


        ...military is run by the government... they'll do just as good job with health care as they do with the other things they run.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by sluggo (August 19, 2009 5:29 pm ET)
      3  
      Since we live in a media-saturated environment, most people rely on the media for their news and world-view. Most media is corporate owned and influenced and we just don't have a tradition of questioning what we see on television.

      This is why so many people believe the "death panels" and all the other nonsense being pushed by various groups with a financial interest in stopping any change to the current health-care policies. The media is a partner to this type of propaganda.

      The result is that political progress is rapidly coming to an end in this country. Without the ability to present clear choices to the voters and with the complacency of corporate media in such propaganda campaigns, change is becoming impossible.

      The really sad part is that voters will, based on outright lies the see in the media, vote against their own best interests. We are seeing this now with the possibility of having the public option dropped from a health-care plan but the mandate being left in. People will be forced to purchase insurance from private corporations which have a track-record of refusing to pay out and not covering many situations.

      And we will all watch FOX news and then vote to have our wallets picked by the health care corporations.
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