The real lessons of Fox/MSNBC comparisons
At first blush, it may seem odd to see so many journalists rush to defend Fox News, a cable channel that attacks the rest of the media almost as often as it smears and lies about progressives. Fox employees are busily destroying what's left of the public's faith in journalism -- and lobbing insults at actual reporters as they do so. Why would any self-respecting journalist want to embrace what happens on Fox?
The obvious part of the answer is that there are personal relationships involved. The simple fact is that many reporters at, say, ABC or CNN or the New York Times are friends with people who work at Fox. And nobody likes to see their friends get criticized.
But I think when many journalists defend Fox, they're really defending themselves -- they're acting out of fear that they, too, will one day be branded illegitimate. (Given the right-wing's much more aggressive criticism of the media over the past several decades, this is, of course, a perfectly reasonable fear -- and it isn't surprising that reporters feel safer lashing out at media criticism from progressives than from conservatives.)
Ironically, in defending Fox in order to defend themselves, many journalists are actually undermining their own credibility. Not (only) because they side with partisans who have clearly stated their intent to destroy a presidency, but because of the way they do so: They don't rely on evidence and fact and reason; they base their arguments on assumptions and spin and name-calling. They don't behave like journalists.
Last week, I explained the absurdity of the efforts by many reporters to compare the Obama administration's criticisms of Fox to the anti-press efforts of Richard Nixon. Fortunately, that ahistorical bit of nonsense seems to have died down. But in its place, laughable attempts to equate Fox News and MSNBC have spread like wildfire. Again and again, we hear that MSNBC is the liberal Fox, as though their ideological intensity and commitment to the principles of journalism are in any way comparable.
As always, part of the problem is journalists' fundamentally warped sense of where the "center" is. If, for example, an MSNBC figure suggests a need for health care reform, many journalists would take that as evidence that the channel leans to the left. But that isn't evidence of MSNBC leaning to the left; that's evidence of them leaning to the center. That's where the center of the country is, and has been for quite some time. It simply isn't comparable to Fox reporters comparing President Obama to Chairman Mao.
But the lazy conventional wisdom of Beltway journalists requires that they pretend -- maybe they even convince themselves -- that Fox must have a left-wing equivalent. And so they insist that Fox and MSNBC are mirror images of each other -- which suggests that the endpoints of the political spectrum are, on the Left, an understanding of the need for health care reform and, on the Right, a belief that President Obama is pursuing a Maoist strategy of indoctrination. When they do that, they demonstrate just how far to the right the overall media environment has shifted, and they reveal more about their own worldview than about MSNBC's.
Now, let's get something out of the way: Yes, Rachel Maddow, Ed Schultz, and Keith Olbermann all host shows that, to varying degrees, lean to the left. (Personally, I think Olbermann demonstrates more disgust at the leadership of the modern conservative movement than he does a liberal worldview, but your mileage may vary.)
But hey, guess what? Maddow, Schultz and Olbermann account for three hours of original programming a day -- exactly the same as Joe Scarborough, who hosts the agenda-setting Morning Joe. That's conservative Joe Scarborough. Former Republican Congressman Joe Scarborough. And if you watch MSNBC during the day, you'll see a parade of anchors and reporters who frequently adopt conservative frames, pass along GOP spin, and routinely fail to challenge obvious falsehoods from conservative guests. I'm not saying these daytime reporters are conservatives, but I am saying they frequently (unknowingly, I'm willing to assume) traffic in conservative misinformation. Taken as a whole, it's awfully hard to say with a straight face that MSNBC leans to the left.
And yet reporters keep insisting that not only does MSNBC lean to the left, it leans as far to the left as Fox. (And, in the process, they ignore or downplay the central truth that the real problem with Fox isn't merely that it leans to the right, but that it is fundamentally dishonest; that its goals are not to inform the public, but to destroy people it sees as its enemies.)
Let's start with CNN host Campbell Brown. Wednesday evening, Brown offered an extended commentary on the White House-Fox News flap, during which she suggested the only controversial aspect of Fox is "their opinionated hosts in prime- time," and portrayed Fox and MSNBC as mirror images of each other:
I am stating what I think is the obvious here. Jarrett seems loath to admit that MSNBC has a bias, and that is where I think the White House loses all credibility on this issue. Just as Fox News leans to the right with their opinionated hosts in prime- time, MSNBC leans left. I don't think anyone at Fox or MSNBC would disagree with that. In fact, both Fox News and MSNBC are doing quite well in the prime-time ratings by doing partisan opinion.
Brown's implication that outside of Fox's "opinionated hosts in prime-time" the cable channel is fair and balanced is either deeply dishonest or stunningly ignorant. Either way, it constitutes lousy journalism. Media Matters has repeatedly shown that Fox's daytime, ostensibly "straight news" programs are filled with right-wing misinformation. And remember: It wasn't Sean Hannity or any other prime-time host who suggested during last year's presidential campaign that Barack and Michelle Obama had performed a "terrorist fist-jab." It was a daytime news anchor.
Even worse is Brown's characterization of Fox's "opinionated hosts" as simply "lean[ing] to the right." Nonsense. Olympia Snowe "leans to the right." David Brooks "leans to the right." Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity don't "lean" anywhere; they populate a far-right cesspool that respectable conservatives wouldn't be caught dead in.
Just look at how many conservatives have denounced Beck: Brooks calls him a "race-bating" "loon," Scarborough denounces Beck's "hatred," former Bush speechwriter Peter Wehner says Beck's comments "are quite unfair and not good for the country." Mark Levin says Beck is "mindless," "incoherent," "pandering," and "pathetic." David Frum denounces Beck's "mob rule" approach; Kathleen Parker says Beck "empower[s] racists."
And yet Campbell Brown can only bring herself to say "Fox leans to the right" with the likes of Beck -- a remarkable understatement that smears reasonable conservatives and displays a shocking lack of understanding of what Beck is up to.
And in Brown's telling, MSNBC "leans left" just as much as Fox "leans to the right." Of course, Brown doesn't actually provide any examples; doesn't even name any names. In a segment that ran nearly 1,000 words, Brown didn't provide a single example of slanted commentary, flawed journalism, false claims, or anything else at all. No facts, no details, nothing.
It sure is easy to insist that Fox and MSNBC are equivalent when you don't have to actually assess what they do, isn't it? But that isn't really journalism; it's just pontification and spin.
But Brown can't offer examples; can't get into details, because if she did, the fantasy she constructs that Fox and MSNBC are polar opposites would fall apart.
She'd have to try to find MSNBC equivalents of Fox -- not just Hannity, but Bill Hemmer and Brett Baier, too -- falsely accusing an Obama administration official of covering up statutory rape. And of Hemmer falsely claiming Democrats "voted to give special protection to pedophiles."
She'd have to find the MSNBC equivalent of Fox reporter Jon Scott repeatedly being caught passing off GOP talking points (typos and all) as his original reporting. She'd have to find the MSNBC equivalent of Fox anchor Martha MacCallum having to apologize for passing off a six-month-old Joe Biden quote about the economy as a current comment -- a clip Fox deceptively cropped to make it appear Biden was saying something that he was actually criticizing John McCain for saying. And of White House correspondent Wendell Goler cropping an Obama comment and taking it out of context, completely reversing the statement's meaning in the process. Not Sean Hannity, not Glenn Beck -- Wendell Goler.
She'd have to find the MSNBC equivalent of Chris Wallace calling the Obama administration the "biggest bunch of crybabies I have dealt with in my 30 years in Washington." Anyone think David Gregory ever said anything like that about the Bush administration?
Campbell Brown knows she can't find any of these things, so she doesn't even try. And I haven't even scratched the surface of Fox's malicious and deeply dishonest attacks on those they disagree with; their assault on fact and reason, or their cheerleading for pet causes.
But even if Brown could find the MSNBC equivalent of all that and more -- which, again, she simply cannot do -- she'd still have to find the Fox equivalent of MSNBC handing over three hours a day to former Republican Congressman Joe Scarborough. And of MSNBC employing Pat Buchanan, the nation's most famous bigot. And of raging Clinton-hater, liberal-basher and on-air misogynist Chris Matthews hosting one of MSNBC's signature shows. And of MSNBC's "straight news" reporters regularly adopting conservative frames and failing to challenge right-wing lies during interviews. She'd have to find the Fox version of MSNBC's use of Michelle Bernard, a right-wing activist who has been sending out false and despicable anti-health care reform attack emails, as host of a special forum dealing with health care.
Campbell Brown can't do that, either.
And so she ignores it all -- ignores what actually happens on Fox News and on MSNBC, and simply asserts that they're the same. Is that what Campbell Brown thinks journalism is about? Completely ignoring facts and evidence, and just making baseless assertions? No wonder she defends Fox.
But Brown wasn't content to simply equate Fox and MSNBC. No, she also had to contrast them with CNN:
Some of us, like my colleagues here at CNN, are still trying to do journalism. I believe that journalists do have a crucial role to play in challenging our leaders no matter what their political persuasion, and in holding them accountable.
Opinionated cable news hosts have a valid but very different role. They either cheerlead or criticize.
[...]
I'm not critical of what my friends at Fox News and MSNBC do, but it is apples and oranges when compared to what we at CNN do. And we should all just acknowledge that.
You know what else "we should all just acknowledge"? You know, if we're "trying to do journalism" that contrasts MSNBC and CNN? We should all acknowledge that Lou Dobbs exists, that he's a lying right-wing nut, that he hosts a television show every evening on CNN, and that CNN's president defends Dobbs' hyping of crazy birther conspiracy theories.
See, Campbell Brown didn't mention Dobbs during her pious lecture about how CNN is committed to "trying to do journalism," unlike those nasty opinion-mongers over at MSNBC.
So let's sum up Brown's segment: She offered no facts, no details, no examples, made obviously spurious comparisons of Fox and MSNBC, and ignored Lou Dobbs in bragging about how different CNN is from the other two cable channels, which feature opinion hosts.
Now consider that Brown's contrast of MSNBC and CNN sounds an awful lot like CNN president Jon Klein's attempt to differentiate CNN from MSNBC and Fox just a day earlier:
Excellent journalism is what we are focused on. We refuse to do the things that might get us a quick number or cater to the extremes that would alienate our core viewers.
Klein didn't mention Dobbs either.
So Brown's segment on MSNBC and Fox offered no facts and no evidence, and omitted any mention of Lou Dobbs while holding up CNN as a contrast to the opinion hosts at the other two cable channels -- just like her boss did.
You tell me: Does Brown's segment seem like journalism, or like spin on behalf of her employer? Was her fact-free assault on her competitors, in which she bashed them for things CNN does, too, the kind of behavior you'd expect to see from a reporter or from a press secretary?
Brown concluded:
[I]f the White House wants to leap into this debate, as they have, and talk about bias in the media, then great. But White House officials should elevate the conversation and talk about bias on the right and on the left. Because when you just target one side, you reveal your own bias, that you are only critical of those who are critical of you.
Seems to me that it's Campbell Brown who has revealed something.
Next: Baltimore Sun television critic David Zurawik, who also insists that MSNBC is the liberal version of Fox News. Earlier this year, Zurawik went further, saying of Rachel Maddow: "It's exactly what happened in propaganda in the '30s in Europe. I'm not kidding you."
Now, if someone insists that they aren't kidding when they compare Rachel Maddow to Nazi propagandists, it probably says more about their politics and honesty than about Rachel Maddow's. Given that Zurawik shares Glenn Beck's propensity for comparing run-of-the-mill liberals to Nazis, it probably shouldn't be surprising that he would leap to Fox's defense.
Zurawik also describes MSNBC as a "highly-partisan, pro-administration channel" and says "I will take the press critics in the West Wing like Rahm Emanuel and David Axelrod seriously when they condemn MSNBC for the same sins and worse than Fox."
Worse? I'll let Zurawik off the hook on that one; it's so obviously stupid I can only assume he hit his head on something before writing it. So, if he can come up with examples of MSNBC behavior that is merely as bad as what happens routinely on Fox, I'll be impressed.
I say "if" because -- like Brown -- Zurawik didn't bother to include a single example of anything in his eight-paragraph rant about MSNBC being worse than Fox News. Zurawick does not offer a single example of poor or biased journalism on the part of either cable channel. And this guy is a "TV critic"! Isn't that the kind of job where you're supposed to, you know, write about what happens on TV?
Then there's Washington Post columnist Ruth Marcus. She, too, recently made a 100 percent fact-free suggestion that MSNBC is the liberal version of Fox. To her credit, after Marcus was criticized, she acknowledged, "I don't think that Fox and MSNBC are equivalent. Fox is more over the line, more often" -- but she ignored criticism of her unsupported characterization of MSNBC as a liberal channel.
Have you noticed a pattern yet?
The odds are pretty good that whenever you see journalists refer to MSNBC as liberal (or, especially, as the liberal version of Fox), they won't provide any examples. The last thing they want to do is have to back up their claims with actual facts. Because they know that as soon as the discussion becomes about what actually happens on the two cable channels, they'll look awfully silly. So they just assert it, as though everybody knows it's true.
That, of course, is what political operatives do when spinning on behalf of their clients. It isn't how journalists are supposed to behave.
If you wanted to be generous to the "MSNBC is the liberal Fox crowd," you might be tempted to say MSNBC's evening liberals lean about as far to the left as Fox's daytime "straight news" reporters lean to the right. I think even that's quite a stretch, but fine. Let's go with it: If you compare the least explicitly conservative parts of Fox to the most liberal parts of MSNBC, you get a comparison that might border on reasonable. That still doesn't account for Scarborough, Buchanan, and ample conservative misinformation each day from MSNBC's daytime broadcasts -- or for the likes of Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly on Fox.
Any reporter who tells you MSNBC is the liberal Fox is really telling you everything you need to know about the quality of his or her own journalism.
Jamison Foser is a Senior Fellow at Media Matters for America, a progressive media watchdog and research and information center based in Washington, D.C. Foser also contributes to County Fair, a media blog featuring links to progressive media criticism from around the Web, as well as original commentary. You can follow him on Twitter and Facebook or sign up to receive his columns by email.
















Why does your software LOSE all the content when it tells us that we have to post without profanity???
I second your post! I too have typed out a few posts, a couple of which were rather lengthy... only to have the MMfA 'filter' monster eat my words! I try to remember to copy and paste (as needed) each time, but every so often I forget to do so for one reason or another.
With that said... MMfA, Jamison, whoever... I am asking the same thing as DellDolly is... why can't you guys have software that saves what we typed and perhaps instead highlights the supposed profane word, so that we may know what needs changing instead of losing entire posts for a word that your filter does not accept??
As for this article...
Always an A+ job in your analysis Mr. Foser!
The MMFA filter is a bit priggish, isn't it?
But aren't false equivalencies one of the bedrock tools that the right uses?
Any chance that MMfA could get their own channel? There's got to be some one out there willing to back a worthy venture like that. I'd volunteer to work on such a channel. I'm only making TV commercials now.
I guess it shows how lost in the bubble these Beltway, corporate journalists really are?
much the way they see many mainstream centrists who agree with a democratic idea as 'the far left'
And write with paragraphs next time.
How did you miss this paragraph?
And yet reporters keep insisting that not only does MSNBC lean to the left, it leans as far to the left as Fox. (And, in the process, they ignore or downplay the central truth that the real problem with Fox isn't merely that it leans to the right, but that it is fundamentally dishonest; that its goals are not to inform the public, but to destroy people it sees as its enemies.)
A poster who articulates and then is lambasted for it. Stick to ad hominem attacks and ignorance and you'll get more thumbs up........:)
Obama lied, troops are dying! US out of Iraq and Afghanistan now!
Hillary Clinton:
"I am sick and tired of people who call you unpatriotic
if you debate this administration’s policies. We are Americans
and have the right to participate and debate any administration."
Hmmmm! Maybe people are tired of the same old rhetoric from the Obama Stations. And they hate to be told what to think. Try again Mr. Fosper.
What were these supposed Obama stations while Bush was in office?? Oh wait... they were Clinton stations right? No, no... they were Al Gore stations? Or maybe they were simply Communist station hell bent on destroying the Bush regime before they destroyed us?
Morons like you are what is helping to ruin this nation!
And being the number one watched cable station does not mean it is the best, it simply means that there are more morons (like yourself) who would rather watch that garbage and be given your marching orders instead of thinking for yourself and realizing that Cluster Fox is a propaganda machine for un-American activities, frauds, and circus acts!
Cable News Ratings for Wednesday, October 28, 2009
25-54 Total Day
FNC –345,000 viewers
CNN –131,000 viewers
MSNBC –94,000 viewers
CNBC – 62,000 viewers
HLN- 158,000 viewers
http://tvbythenumbers.com/2009/10/29/cable-news-ratings-for-wednesday-october-28-2009/32044#more-32044
What do you not understand about these numbers?
Obama lied, troops are dying! US out of Iraq and Afghanistan now!
Hillary Clinton:
"I am sick and tired of people who call you unpatriotic
if you debate this administration’s policies. We are Americans
and have the right to participate and debate any administration."
So I just leave you with a favorite old quote from my grad studies, BVDs--figures don't lie, but liars can figure...
All the cable news networks are pretty darn close in coverage. It's not because FoxNews draws from a much larger pool. In fact, CNN is in more households than anyone else, and MSNBC is only about 4% lower than FoxNews in total households.
CNN/HLN: 99.098 million HHs
CNBC: 96.78 million HHs
FNC: 96.26 million HHs
MSNBC: 92.64 million HHs
More people watch FoxNews than watch CNN, HLN and MSNBC combined. This is pretty much across the board true, all timeslots, all demographics, except during the run-up to elections. In down times like this, only FoxNews viewers stay tuned in to FoxNews. And that's not a great thing to say about them. They are so addicted to hearing confirmation of their preconceived notions that they can't do without their daily fix of FoxNews.
And the reason that FoxNews does so well compared to other cable channels?
Because of the audience they're aimed towards, that's why. Republicans (and others on the right) have a long history of walking in lockstep, needing validation of their preconceived notions, and having to have a common enemy. FoxNews fills those needs.
Liberals don't behave in the same way. That's why there's the funny saying that getting Democrats to all believe in the same thing at the same time is like herding cats! Liberals are more liberal, strangely enough, and so they are willing to change their minds and allow their fellow liberals to disagree with them.
And that's why FoxNews has lots of followers and there isn't a comparably popular liberally-slanted cable news outlet.
It's not because FoxNews is "better" than other cable channels. They are much worse than any other. But Republicans don't really care about the truth, or honesty, nearly as much as they care about winning and validating their preconceived notions.
And those characteristics aren't very attractive.
I predict that the very thing you are implicitly praising here, cable news channels like FoxNews, are going to be the downfall of the popularity of conservative ideals. More people are more exposed to a wide variety of news sources and more ideas from a variety of people. The more that happens, the less powerful your no-nothing political philosophy will be. You guys aren't going to become extinct, but you're losing power with every election, with every household that becomes connected to the internet, with every young person who rejects the status quo.
Do you know how few young Americans have any problem with interracial marriage and 'mulatto' children nowadays? The disgust with the things your side used to hold as imperatives is spreading. The more light that is shined on your side of the aisle, the more the cancers on your souls are exposed. MMFA does a good job of that - this White House understands the importance of having a fair debate on topics without the nonsense from FoxNews!
You can run but you can't hide.
How can anyone have a decent conversation with a Liberal Weenie.
Obama hasn't accomplished anything he promised he would do when he campaigned. You do know this health care plan is going to fail. You also should know Cap and Trade will fail.
If he spent more time in Washington and not flying around campaigning for Governors in New Jersey and Pennsylvania and didn't have Photo Op's in Dover Delaware and talk to NBC about his 1999 family problems with Michelle he could concentrate more.
No I am not the problem with America. The current Government and the previous President was the problem.
Tell me this. When was the last time Obama visited Afghanistan?
Well, when your practically start your postings by calling your opponents "liberal weenies," that just might be a reason why. If you started out with just the slightest scintilla of respect for people of different opinions than your own, you just might get a decent conversation out of it.
But who are you really trying to kid, BVDs? When you start out in the way you start out, it's clear from your very first syllable that you have no interest in a "decent conversation"--you merely want to throw verbal slime at the regulars here, then go back to RedState or TownHall or Freeperville and tell your buds how you devastated us all with your wit. Sorry to bust your self-indulgent balloon, BVDs, but there have been plenty of trolls here before you who have tried just what you're trying, and in fact have actually doe it better. And there are also some conservative posters here who really are capable of having that "decent conversation"--because they actually want one...
Well bvb720, to start with you have to have an open mind and a modicum of balanced skepticism. You simply can't believe Fox to the exclusion of everyone else.
Mr. Foser just cited ample evidence to support his arguments, which you seemed to have ignored. I suspect you don't even read the articles that you comment on.
Next you must realize that you make our arguments for us when you come here to tell us how to think and to make sweeping allegations that don't seem to reflect independant thought. You seek to convince us with what are obvious regurgitations of conservative talking points.
This is relatively true, so far, but what are you saying? That Obama has not managed to destroy America with his Marxist, Fascist, Socialist, Nazi agenda? If so, then what is all the hysteria about on the right? Are you saying that he is so duplicitous that he won't keep promises; or are you saying he is failing because of the due diligence and heroic efforts of conservative media?
Do you mean the legislation will fail to pass or that whatever plan is passed will fail? Oh, what do you care which it is, just as long as Obama fails, right?
Passing Cap and trade , as you recall was part of McCain's platform. If it fails, then you be sure and explain to your granchildren how you advocated for the environmental mess that they will have to survive.
Oh, so only now do you admit what we were saying about Bush for 8 long years. But where is the 6 years of Republican controlled Congess in your calculation? Bush never vetoed one single spending bill that came across his desk; not until the Dems took control. So Congress doubled the deficit national debt with the complicity of Bush. And just look at all we have to show for it. Oh, we could go on and on.
But then you already know all of this because you have such an open and analytical mind of independant thought, as you seem to imply.
No YOU are not the problem with America. Ignorance is the problem. All that MMfA is doing is combating ignorance.
Oh yes, this talking point is a favorite.
So here is the answer. ONCE. Exactly as many times as Bush. But an independant thinker like you already looked that up, because you don't like being told what to think.
Obama went in 2008, before the election. Bush went in July, 2006---5 years into the war!
Your question implies that there is an appropriate timetable for presidential visits to war zones. When you find out what that is, please report back. But I would say that comparatively speaking, Obama can't be described as neglecting his membership in the Afganistan Country Club until after his re-election.
Oh, and one more fact before I shut my pie-hole. The entire cost of the two Bush wars were never in the federal budget, but were put on somebody elses Mastercard. Obama restored those past due bills to the national budget, which now accounts for about a trillion dollars of increased deficit that the right wing is endlessly harping about. In other words, the kids are now whining that Daddy doesn't have any more money because he has to pay off the kids credit card debt.
In hindsight, I can see why you have trouble conversing with "Liberal Weenies". We just have this.....obsession...for facts!
Talk about rambling? Where does she get off stereotyping conservatives with things like we supposedly have a problem with "interracial marriages" and such? Crawl back into your racist hole DellDolly before I have my "interrracial" grandkids kick your ignorant butt.
Do you know how few young Americans have any problem with interracial marriage and 'mulatto' children nowadays? The disgust with the things your side used to hold as imperatives is spreading. The more light that is shined on your side of the aisle, the more the cancers on your souls are exposed. MMFA does a good job of that - this White House understands the importance of having a fair debate on topics without the nonsense from FoxNews!
You can run but you can't hide.
It's factual that it's conservatives who reject new things and progress. It's not my imagination. That's not to say that all conservatives have a bias that causes them to reject interracial relationships - I guess that's your black and white thinking that is poisoning your view.
There have been news stories in the past few days about conservatives having issues with interracial marriage and mixed children. You need to keep up. I could have come up with a hundred different examples of your side being left behind today and over the years - I am not sure why you didn't understand that!
And how you can interpret my comments as racist is beyond me.
What is this some BIG SECRET that conservatives detest interracial marriage amongst the lower classes?? Hell, only last week an 'mixed-race' couple were denied nuptials [whadda 'bout the children?] . .
Of course, when you have BIG $$$, interracial marriage is acceptable because you can afford to buy a home in ANY NEIGHBORHOOD you desire, just ask Clarence Thomas . .
Just because YOU have an interracial marriage in your family and have bi-racial grandchildren, doesn't mean all conservatives accept mixed race marriages, let alone 'same-sex' marriages . .
And "they hate being told what to think"? It's interesting that the very hosts in question (Beck, Hannity, O'Reilly) do exactly that, the network PROMOTES a "tea party" (not covering it, but promoting it) and regard any outside data not gleaned from the mouthpiece of FOX as specious. Indeed, FOX viewers LOVE being told what to think. (Why do you think Limbaugh's listeners are called "dittoheads"?)
FOX makes knowing what to think nice, easy and digestible. And it's sad and scary at the same time. Orwellian indeed.
Maybe they are tired of FOX Snooze and supporters like you.
I'm not trying to attribute this to you, of course. It just seems to me that conservatives in general are trying to have it both ways. If you're going to tout the ratings of FOX, then you have to recognize the combined viewers of whatever entities are supposed to be "liberal" in nature. If you want to cut down that number in order to make FOX look better, then you have to conclude that some of these other sources are not liberally biased, in which case their negative coverage of Republicans would be due to those Republicans actually deserving that coverage.
Any thoughts?
The fundamental mistake they make is that they have no way of knowing the political persuasion of Fox viewers. Unlike other TV news channels (we'll leave talkback radio out of it, shall we?), Fox is a politically-polarising organisation that blatantly and absurdly represents one of the poles. Other channels do not do this. Other channels also do not manipulate, distort, misrepresent and malign. Fox does; and this makes it different.
Many rightwing loons will watch Fox to have their prejudices and bigotry fed. But Fox attracts another and undoubtedly very large group. This group (of which I am one) consists of leftwingers and moderates who watch Fox with the fascination of a hare watching a snake.
The Fox method is a rivetting study in perverted "journalism". And this perversion provokes rage, disbelief and fascination. Like me, there is no sympathy among this group for what Fox is saying - quite the reverse. But there is a certain perverse pleasure in watching a snake.
Now, Fox's advertisers could not care less who watches Fox. So the total of Fox's 5 million viewers or whatever it is legitimately goes towards pleasing them. But it is ludicrous for Fox to say that this number represents support for Fox's views. I would be vastly surprised if half did.
For me, Fox is a comic opera populated with sopranos all singing out of tune. It is nauseatingly attractive.
usually, the best example people can give on msnbc being liberal are those evil communist, socialist liberals, rachel maddow and keith olbermann. they completely ignore scarborough with his 3 hours of conservatism, pat buchanan being a guest on every show except schultz, maddow and olbermann, and with the new revelations regarding michelle bernard and her affiliations with the right wing americans for prosperity, she is another conservative sympathizer advancing far-right myths regarding healthcare.
oh, and that "far-left" nut, chris matthews, the one that showed his supposed obsession for the president a few times, all of a sudden, magically made him the biggest liberal in the country. not only did he attack the clintons in the last election, but he has been doing it for years WAY before anybody even knew who barack obama is AND, over the years, he constantly praised conservatives time and time again. people seem to completely forget about anything that ever happened in the past, even if it was as little as a year ago... just like the bush administration and the last 8 years where they have minimal to no outrage and freak out like crazy over obama trying to make affordable healthcare. GOD FOR BID... HOW COULD HE!?
its obvious there are truly no real liberals in the media... just pundits who ask conservatives tough questions, give liberals a chance to say something, disregard them believing the conservative lies and tout themselves as real fair journalists while the far-right complains about these people being the "liberal media". those are the real cry babies... not the white house filibustering fox news from interviewing president obama... thats just small potatoes.
Actually I've watched Pat Buchanan on Rachel's show, more than once.
So, if being in the middle or slightly to the left is considered "ultra liberal" then I'll proudly live with the "liberal" label. At least I've got a heart and care what happens to my fellow man/woman.
A news program would never say "madrassa madrassa madrassa madrassa madrassa madrassa madrassa madrassa madrassa madrassa madrassa madrassa" in heavy rotation. Would they?
I'll wait.
If we didn't understand the difference between opinion shows and news programming, you might have a very minor point in your favor. But we do understand.
The fact that there are opinion shows doesn't change the issue that facts are maligned on those shows. It doesn't change that those opinion commentators mislead, distort and omit relevant data.
And it ignores the point that the opinion shows aren't the only problematic parts of FoxNews.
Watch the Jon Stewart video.
Read all the postings by MMFA about FoxNews' sins of distortion, falsehood and omission. Then come back to us and tell us what you've learned. Until you do that, you're too poorly educated to try to teach us anything.
Not to mention that MSNBC calls the channel "The Place for Politics" - not MSNBC "News" - so perhaps Fox could call itself "The Place for Right Wing Politics." I never understand why people continue to compare the two. MSNBC isn't pretending to be a news channel or "fair and balanced" - although their facts are, well, usually the facts.
Really? You don't even watch the network, never have posted here before, but you want to educate us? I swear....
By the way, the "tingle up the leg" thing doesn't expose MSNBC as having liberal bias.
I'm reminded one of my favorite Doonesbury comic strips of all time - originally published on July 13, 2003 - one of my favorites of all time - in which two Doonesbury characters who play the role of commentators on the public radio show All Things Reconsidered - liberal Mark Slackmeyer and conservative Chase Talbot III (who also happen to be homosexual lovers, and eventually became a married couple) - discuss the differences between liberals and conservatives. The strip starts out with Mark watching Fox News, where an announcer trumpets "Fox News: we report, you decide!", to which Mark muses "That has to be the most cynical slogan in the history of journalism" [personally, I find their other slogan, "Fair and Balanced" to be far more cynical].
In the main portion of the strip, Chase sums up the differences between liberals and conservatives: "[Y]ou liberals are hung up on fairness! You actually try to respect all points of view! But conservatives feel no need whatsoever to consider other views. We know we're right, so why bother? Because we have no tradition of tolerance, we're unencumbered by doubt! So we roll you guys every time!" When Mark replies "Actually, you make a good point...", Chase responds, "See! Only a loser would admit that!"
(The words without the pictures don't really do it justice; I'll try embedding it below, and also include a link to the strip: http://www.gocomics.com/doonesbury/2003/07/13/)
What do you think of Washington DC's total disregard for the Constitution?
Like a few others who have posted comments here, I've had trouble posting a comment with a link, so will re-post without the link.
I'm reminded of one of my favorite Doonesbury comic strips (which can be found by googling "doonesbury july 13 2003"), in which two Doonesbury characters who play the role of commentators on the public radio show All Things Reconsidered, liberal Mark Slackmeyer and conservative Chase Talbot III (who also happen to be homosexual lovers, and eventually became a married couple), discuss the differences between liberals and conservatives. The strip starts out with Mark watching Fox News, where an announcer trumpets "Fox News: we report, you decide!", to which Mark muses "That has to be the most cynical slogan in the history of journalism" [personally, I find their other slogan, "Fair and Balanced" to be far more cynical].
In the main portion of the strip, Chase sums up the differences between liberals and conservatives: "[Y]ou liberals are hung up on fairness! You actually try to respect all points of view! But conservatives feel no need whatsoever to consider other views. We know we're right, so why bother? Because we have no tradition of tolerance, we're unencumbered by doubt! So we roll you guys every time!" When Mark replies "Actually, you make a good point...", Chase responds, "See! Only a loser would admit that!"
Let me know what you find.
Oh, and the possessive is "its" as in "its" agenda. The contraction for it is would be "it's" as in it's a fact you know not whereof you speak.
Another instructive exemplar of the usual Fox viewer's level of education. Note that Hotwings is doubtless a critic of the system of education in this country. Fair enough, I suppose, seeing how little said Hotwings learned.
Bruce Dimsdale to The Rachel Maddow Show:
Having just read the Jamison Foser article (about that Nazi Rachel) I sit and wonder if anyone has actually done a comparison between the news organizations. I do understand Foser's points and believe them to be true, but it would be stark, or sobering or at least enlightening to have more than a few comparisons o...n 'news' articles or 'slanted' opinions disguised as news articles. Jamison Foser implies if not contends that Jamison Foser is not biased. Ex. the President petted his dog. CNN said this...MSNBC said this...FOX said this.. USA Today said this...Face the Nation said this and on and on...you pick the 'combatants. This could be the beginning of a new book. Hint hint. Just wondering..
Signed Confused in the darkness of the media bias.
Also interesting, those who are liberal love to throw in a morning program with little viewership and use as a trophy to state MSNBC is not like Fox. Remember, a Republican will be president again and does that mean MSNBC will be attacked? Oh well, Olbermann still has his sports job..
And how do you dismiss out of hand that MSNBC has 3 hours of Joe Scarborough, FoxNews has no comparable 3 hours, yet they aren't different JUST upon that criteria? And, of course, that's not the only difference mentioned.... just saying.
And no one with half a brain tries to say that FoxNews isn't slanted to the right.
And yet reporters keep insisting that not only does MSNBC lean to the left, it leans as far to the left as Fox. (And, in the process, they ignore or downplay the central truth that the real problem with Fox isn't merely that it leans to the right, but that it is fundamentally dishonest; that its goals are not to inform the public, but to destroy people it sees as its enemies.)
Their 'opinion' shows are just so much histrionic rant. Ever notice how short most of the litanies are on any fact (real or imagined/false/manufactured), but rather ramble on with innuendo and accusation? There is no reasoned analysis of an issue.
A good argument might even bring up the opposing viewpoint and address it in some intelligent manner
It seems to me that Fox may be doing more harm to the Republican party than they are helping. Can't we see most reasonable people getting a glimpse of Beck, rolling their eyes and turning to the left for a reasonable response?
Despite all the lies and distortions and hysterics about a health care plan, the vast majority of Americans still want it – and this must surely include a good number of Fox viewers, hmmm?
I think even those who cannot 'lose face' and admit what a bunch of crap they've bought into all this time, in the secret confines of home and voting booth – they know. Fox will only fool some of the people all of the time. Those must be the 14% who actually saw Fox leaning liberal! Who are those people?
the mere idea that fnc is "fair " or "balanced" feels to me like arguing a dog is a cat,or the yankees are a football team.
it makes me sad to think that people would actually want to make that argument,and that they actually believe it.
i think the obama strategy of going after fnc is not a winning one.yes,everything theyve said is absolutely true.and yes,someone needs to be pushing back against the fnc propoganda puke machine.but i just dont think its beneficial to the obama adm when theyre doing it themselves
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2009/10/in_white_house_vs_fox_news_war.html
Over 1.1 million votes on the liberal NPR site with 81% saying Obamas White House is wrong regarding FOX News.
NPR is not as liberal as you think. There have been plenty of examples of them also spouting conservative misinformation. If you can give even more examples of NPR spouting liberal misinformation, you might have a point, but I suspect "the messenger" won't be able to deliver.
I would like to know if the supposed NPR listeners are responding based on the same misperception that so many on the right have--that Obama's criticism is due to Fox's news slant, rather than it's consistent journalistic malpractice. The more people know the truth, the less they defend Fox.
Oh, and since you're retired, maybe you should consider going back to school and learning some things that you didn't the first time. "NPR" is capitalized because it's an acronym; "Fox" isn't. And even most neocons should be bright enough to use an apostrophe in "Obama's."
How desperate is this to pick at a couple grammar typos? I assume you will be as diligent when it comes to your fellow lefty's typos.
Somehow I doubt it. But if ya want I can point out a few dozen for you. Let me know.
First of all, it's "couple of"; second, they were errors in capitalization, not grammar. Don't ever duke it out with a former English teacher/magazine editor.
More importantly, I mentioned your errors in just the last of my three paragraphs. You ignored the other two. The desperation is thus clearly your own.
I assume you will be as diligent when it comes to your fellow lefty's typos.
On those rare occasions that I respond to a lefty and there are errors, I do point them out. I did it on another thread today, where I advised someone to get his shift key fixed.
And it's "lefties' typos," by the way.
Somehow I doubt it. But if ya want I can point out a few dozen for you. Let me know.
Save it. The illiterati are always much better represented by the neocons. Take some with you when you go back to school.
And even on the page that you linked to, it says
"Many e-mailers wanted to make sure we knew that there had been an online effort, fueled by e-mail chains and blogs, among Fox News fans to "win" the poll. John Plotkin said he had received an e-mail from conservative "friends," urging that he vote in the survey. "If you think your poll results are accurate, think again," Plotkin added.
As I noted on Saturday, this isn't a scientific survey. It's an online poll that successfully got folks talking about a very interesting story."
So, why exactly can't we blame the messenger for pretending that a biased, spammed, purposefully falsified poll result actually has relevance to this discussion? How are you not even responsible for posting it here again? What a tool you are.
On top of that, people having opinions that aren't based upon factual evidence doesn't change the factual evidence.
The fact that lots of people think that the flu vaccine is dangerous compared to the flu are wrong, and it doesn't affect the fact that it's much worse to get the flu than to get the vaccine. The fact that many people stuffed this poll to end up with the result that confirmed their preconceived biases is not news nor is it an opinion that furthers the debate here - it's toxic to debate, just like you are toxic to any reasonable debate.
Prove it.