For the press, hating Obama = "populism"
Words have meaning, but the Beltway press is in the process of stripping "populism" of its descriptive value as pundits and reporters continue to misuse the word in connection with the right-wing movement that obsessively opposes President Obama. Far from being a populist surge, the movement, led by talkers like Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh who pollute the airwaves through smears and innuendos, remains completely divorced from the traditional sense of what "populism" has stood for in American politics. Yet the press keeps reaching for the wrong phrase.
Why?
Rallying people around a sweeping -- and at times uncontrollable -- hatred of the president, and trying to demonize him at every turn? That's not "populism." And relentlessly painting the federal government as being an intrinsic evil that must be beaten back with physical violence if necessary? Sorry, folks, but that's insurrectionism.
And besides, since when do so-called populists claim the president's a "racist" with a "deep-seated hatred of white people," and who wants to put a spike in the heads of babies? Since when do populists call for a military coup to overthrow the White House, constantly compare the president to a Nazi, denounce him as a "small, petty and spoiled man," and pull their kids out of school in order to make sure they're not "indoctrinated" by the president?
And since when do populists warn that expanded health care coverage will mean the "end of America as you know it," and fearmonger about how "martial law" and "tyranny" may be looming under the news president?
During the 1990s, the black helicopter/militia crowd spread all kinds of similar hate smears and anti-government conspiracy theories about the Clinton administration (i.e. the New World Order). But the Beltway press didn't anoint those crazies as "populists." So why should today's right-wing radicals, and their media rabble-rousers, get to bask in the feel-good "populist" glow?
They get to because the press keeps making the phony claim. For instance, Wall Street Journal columnist Gerald Seib recently assured readers that Tea Party activists -- whom he described as tapping into a "populist vein" -- were just like the independent voters who rallied around folksy billionaire Ross Perot during the 1990s.
Really? Perot supporters in 1996 spent an entire summer month forming wide-eyed mini-mobs in order to make sure that Americans could not discuss the day's important topics at town hall forums? They showed up at rallies with loaded handguns? They routinely compared the president to Adolf Hitler and paraded around with swastika posters? They formed angry crowds around members of Congress and followed them to their cars in parking lots, and hung politicians in effigy? They cheered media personalities who denigrated the president as a communist, and a socialist and a fascist, and attacked the president as a "dangerous" man? The Perot movement was built around incessant and hateful name-calling?
Seib must have watched a different history unfold during the 1990s. Either that, or he's completely whitewashing current events.
Aside from today's rampant partisan hatred, which has no connection with "populism," there's the inconvenient fact that conservative activists today pretty much worship big business. After all, members stormed town hall forums this summer and raised holy hell, freaked out at the prospect of private insurance giants having to face public competition. It's a movement that literally protested -- and spread lies about proposed health care reform -- at the behest of insurance companies.
Power to the people that ain't. (i.e. "Populism: A political philosophy supporting the rights and power of the people in their struggle against the privileged elite.) Except, apparently, inside the New York Times newsroom:
The renewed potency of populist conservatism has been on display since the summer, when health care town hall meetings became a forum for frustrated voters, angry at President Obama and Congressional Democrats over the issue of government expansion.
Giving the radical conservative movement a pass by blanketing it with the appealing "populism" tag is just another way that the press takes the edge off today's irresponsible far-right movement; a movement that has embraced the kind of wildly divisive and name-calling rhetoric not seen in mainstream American politics in generations.
It's easy to understand why partisan conservatives are anxious to grab the "populist" mantle for purely marketing purposes, since the GOP remains a bruised and damaged brand. But why is the traditional press playing along? Most Beltway reporters and pundits won't even use the slightly more accurate "right-wing populism" phrase to describe today's political landscape. Instead, scribes opt for the friendlier "populism." As in, there's a grassroots movement sticking up for working Joes. Why the more pleasing "populism"? Because right-wingers don't like being called right-wingers, so the press almost never does.
The New York Times this year has routinely referred to far-right demagogues as "populists." Last spring the newspaper singled out Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity as "talk-show populists," even though their radio programs literally worship at the altar of big business (not to mention the Chamber of Commerce) and look to corporate America for inspiration for all that is true and righteous. (And yes, alleged "populist" Rush Limbaugh's current radio contract is valued at $400 million.)
Fox News' Glenn Beck, who not long ago freaked out over the idea of business owners having to grant their employees paid sick days, now routinely gets tagged as a "populist" by the press. Politico recently toasted the "populist conservative movement" Beck helped spawn this year. New York magazine cheered him on as "America's top populist in its hour of need." And Time dubbed Beck "The new populist superstar of Fox News."
And, yes, more from the Times:
- "Mr. Beck, an early-evening host on the Fox News Channel, is suddenly one of the most powerful media voices for the nation's conservative populist anger."
- "[A]n increasing number of writers have discovered a new champion: Glenn Beck, the outspoken media darling of populist conservatism."
It's interesting, though, that Beck himself appears to not even know what "populist" means. Note this comment while appearing on The O'Reilly Factor:
The second thing is, is that -- you know, I was called -- who was it that called me today "a populist"? I'm not a populist. I've been saying this stuff when it was unpopular. I've got news for you: It's still pretty unpopular!
Note to Beck: "Populism" is not a political philosophy built around what's popular. It's built around the idea of empowering the people.
It makes perfect sense, though, that Beck doesn't even know what populism is since it was Beck who sprang into action last spring when politicians and voters alike voiced outrage over the lavish, $200 million bonuses that were handed out to AIG financial executives, even though just months earlier AIG had been given $170 billion taxpayer lifeline. Beck demanded that AIG executives be allowed to keep their seven-figure bonuses.
Behold as "populist" Beck practically tried to run Connecticut Attorney General Richard Blumenthal off Glenn Beck, after Blumenthal expressed interest in trying to retrieve the tainted bonuses:
BECK: So then why were you going after them?
BLUMENTHAL: Well, we're not going after them.
BECK: No, you were.
BLUMENTHAL: We're going after the bonuses.
BECK: It's their bonuses.
BLUMENTHAL: We were never going after the --
BECK: No, it -- their bonuses, sir. They are their bonuses. They earned that money. What right, what law did they break that gave you the ability in Connecticut to go after those bonuses?
You could almost see the spittle spraying off Beck's lips as he was barely able to control his rage at the idea of AIG execs having to give back bonuses. And yes, at the same time, Limbaugh loudly proclaimed he was "all for the AIG bonuses." Yet Beck and Limbaugh are populists? They're leading a grassroots revolt on behalf of ordinary citizens against society's out-of-touch elites? (Have I mentioned that Limbaugh worships big business elites?)
The truth is, last year Glenn Beck favored the federal government's unprecedented decision, under President Bush, to bail out failed Wall Street fat cats last year (i.e. "I think the bailout is the right thing do"). In fact, in 2008, Beck stressed the government's $700 billion handout to bankers wasn't enough and that more taxpayer money needed to thrown Wall Street's way. That, in and of itself, should disqualify any journalist from ever again describing Beck as a "populist."
As blogger Brad Reed recently wrote:
The irony is that Beck is only really opposed to big government when Republicans aren't controlling it. For instance, he has no issues with allowing the government to torture prisoners and is supportive of police brutality. And those big government bailouts of the financial industry that Beck rails against on a regular basis? Back when George W. Bush was president, Beck actually chided Congress for not giving more money to rescue the banks. So Beck isn't against big government. Rather, he's opposed to government action that helps the poor at the expense of the rich.
In other words, Beck wants to protect the elites. He wants to protect insurance companies, and he wants to protect failed Wall Street institutions.
Honestly, how many anti-elitist populists do you know who go to bat for overpaid Wall Street executives? So if Beck doesn't even know what populism means, and if he clearly doesn't preach the people-first philosophy, why on earth does the press continue to pin that rather flattering label on the Fox News host's chest?
Is it because journalists are too nervous to use the "D" word -- demagogue?
There is no "populist" movement sweeping America today. But there is a radically partisan one bent on destroying the Obama presidency. So why won't the press say so?





















And then what word do you use in its place? Liberal?
Both the MSM and the Right are trying to alter the meaning of any traditional anti-elitist term that still has positive connotations, so that only the already-ruined ones can be used.
Also, Mr. Boehlert so eloquently stated this: "And relentlessly painting the federal government as being an intrinsic evil that must be beaten back with physical violence if necessary?"
What media personality or politician is inciting physical violence? Pretty irresponsible on his part to state something like that, I would say. Perhaps every conservative media personality should sue Mr. Boehlert for defamation of character.
who is calling for violence?
how about fox nation promoting the hopes of a bloodless coup? which is an oxymoron in itself...cause there is no such thing as a bloodless coup.
or what about that poll hannity had on his site sometime ago asking which form of revolution would be preferable that he quickly took down.
how about that cartoon murdoch allowed into the ny post? ya know the one where the chimp holding the stimulus bill is shot by cops.
A preview of coming attractions from JPeagle, should anybody decide to provide more examples;
Is this the best you've got? Ten so-called examples that have been stretched more than salt water taffy? Thanks for proving my point.
Is this the best you've got? Twenty so-called examples that have been stretched more than salt water taffy? Thanks for proving my point.
Is this the best you've got? A hundred so-called examples that have been stretched more than salt water taffy? Thanks for proving my point.
Wow, that was easy.
As far as the calls to violence, as pros2pros pointed out (and has been documented extensively here at MediaMatters), there has been a bit of a fixation within the right-wing media lately with the idea of a military coup against the present.
Furthermore, don't you think that some examples of the incendiary rhetoric coming from the right wing lately, specifically calling the President Hitler or implying that we are going down a path towards being Nazi Germany are, in themselves, implicit calls to violence? Who wouldn't want to stop Hitler, by any means necessary?
What? Show me some instances to prove your point. When and where has someone from the right-wing media suggested a military coup? And, no-name extremist internet bloggers don't coun't as being from the "right wing media." Although I would have a hard time believing you would find evidence of a "fixation" even from them.
http://www.examiner.com/examiner/x-4383-Portland-Progressive-Examiner~y2009m11d26-Politics-or-sedition-Rush-Limbaugh-calls-for-military-coup
http://mediamatters.org/mmtv/200906290026
http://search.aol.com/aol/search?s_it=topsearchbox.search&q=Rush+Limbaugh+in+US+coup
And here is some Michelle Bachmann:
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/03/23/bachmann-armed-and-dangerous/
http://search.aol.com/aol/search?query=Michelle+Bachman+and+insurrection&s_it=chstrip&c.userid=5324422614964543634
Then there was this:
Newsmax columnist: Military coup "to resolve the 'Obama problem' " is not "unrealistic"
http://mediamatters.org/blog/200909290042
Now I'am tired of playing with you.
2nd - the Rush example was even weaker. First of all, the liberal blogger actually acknowledges that the statement was a joke, but even if it wasn't, what Rush actually said (if you even care) was: "The coup was what many of you wish would happen here, without the military". How is he "calling for violence" with that statement?
Maybe you want to slap yourself back awake because you might want to try again.
Poor choice of words W-H-A-T ? No I don't see your argument and what is it with hypocracy that some people do not see??
Let's ponder for a second what the RWers would do if an African-American or any person of color had showed up at a McCain rally 'ARMED'??? Would this person be considered dangerous??
He/She would be shot d-e-a-d and you know it!!
Your arguments are ignorant and devoid of logic . .
Furthermore...please tell me, do you really not believe that some examples of incendiary rhetoric, such as calling Obama Hitler or declaring that we are on a path towards becoming Nazi Germany (http://mediamatters.org/blog/200910140053) are in themselves implicit calls to violence? Because, like I said, who in their right mind wouldn't do whatever they could to stop Hitler?
There are none so ignorant as those who refuse to listen . .
HYPOCRITES!!
You can check out NewsMax, but not the following article (as it was apparently quickly pulled) by John L. Perry. It can be seen in full, however, courtesy of TCM, at:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/news/2009/09/full_text_of_newsmax_column_suggesting_military_co.php
As mentioned, the article was quickly pulled, but that it was given even the fleeting status of NewsMax's legitimacy, is quite disturbing.
In brief, for those not wishing to follow the links, a few highlights from Perry's article state:
"There is a remote, although gaining, possibility America's military will intervene as a last resort to resolve the "Obama problem." Don't dismiss it as unrealistic."
and,
"Imagine a bloodless coup to restore and defend the Constitution through an interim administration that would do the serious business of governing and defending the nation. Skilled, military-trained, nation-builders would replace accountability-challenged, radical-left commissars. Having bonded with his twin teleprompters, the president would be detailed for ceremonial speech-making.
Military intervention is what Obama's exponentially accelerating agenda for "fundamental change" toward a Marxist state is inviting upon America. A coup is not an ideal option, but Obama's radical ideal is not acceptable or reversible."
The following is not mine, so want to give full credit to the source, as I do not know the author's name. This response to Perry's article was lifted from:
http://mountainsageblog.com/2009/09/30/military-coup-to-resolve-the-obama-problem-is-not-unrealistic/
"The author of this latest in the anti-Obama craziness is quick to say that describing what “may” happen isn’t advocating it to happen. I think that’s a very fine hair he’s trying to split. We don’t have an Obama problem….we have a rightwing nutcases problem. Anybody who lived through 8 years of George W. Bush without “describing” a military coup is hard to take seriously when complaining about Obama trashing the constitution."
It made the point to well, so couldn't resist using it.
I wasn't able to get anything in writing from the "no-name extremist internet bloggers", as they were all at town-hall meetings with assault rifles shouldered and sidearms strapped. Maybe next time.
Does this qualify as a "fixation", or just a "bit of a fixation"? Unfortunately, I think much of this is due to the losers not only losing the Presidency to their opponent, but to a black opponent. The right-wing reaction to Obama after only 10 months is TOTALLY over the top, and contend that all other things being equal, would not be the case if he were white. It is a sad statement, but I believe it is true.
And if Perry is not mainstream right-wing media, those that are (Beck, Limbaugh, FAUX news in general?), at the least, skirt the limits while stoking the fires as much as possible, and in reality (if you watch closely!), give a sideways wink and a nod to the worst of it. To them, democracy is fine if their guy is elected. If not (as they did with Clinton), ignore the will of the people and destroy the enemy using ANY MEANS NECESSARY.
The New York Post. Admittedly, they have not one non-conservative [cough, cough] 'journalist' . .
Try Hannity any night of the week, any night.
Disengenous distortions and LYING every night of the week.
Pronunciation: \ik-ˈsept\
Variant(s): also ex·cept·ing \-ˈsep-tiŋ\
Function: preposition
Date: 14th century
: with the exclusion or exception of <daily except Sundays>
Here's a couple from the "lovely" Ann Coulter...
http://mediamatters.org/research/200410070004
In fact, your "christian" base thrives on the idea of killing Obama!
Indeed they do. They are meant to convey ideas. When words are stripped of their meaning then the entire universe of ideas is diminished by each valuable increment.
When the right-wing hijacked the lexicon, they destroyed the meaning of our most valuable words. Words like patriot, American,progressive, traitor, tyranny, fascism, socialism, and so on and on and on. They are reduced to code words of rhetoric that convey new meanings exclusive to the right-wing's own perverted map of reality.
When these alternate meanings osmose into the mainstream of discourse then the realm of communication becomes a cauldren of noise rather than a foundry of progress.
Eric Boehlert is defending an important concept, perhaps one word at a time.
From Hofstadter's "Paranoid Style in American Politics":
Here is Senator McCarthy, speaking in June 1951 about the parlous situation of the United States:
How can we account for our present situation unless we believe that men high in this government are concerting to deliver us to disaster? This must be the product of a great conspiracy on a scale so immense as to dwarf any previous such venture in the history of man. A conspiracy of infamy so black that, which it is finally exposed, its principals shall be forever deserving of the maledictions of all honest men.…What can be made of this unbroken series of decisions and acts contributing to the strategy of defeat? They cannot be attributed to incompetence.…The laws of probability would dictate that part of…[the] decisions would serve the country’s interest.
Now turn back fifty years to a manifesto signed in 1895 by a number of leaders of the Populist party:
As early as 1865-66 a conspiracy was entered into between the gold gamblers of Europe and America.…For nearly thirty years these conspirators have kept the people quarreling over less important matters while they have pursued with unrelenting zeal their one central purpose.…Every device of treachery, every resource of statecraft, and every artifice known to the secret cabals of the international gold ring are being used to deal a blow to the prosperity of the people and the financial and commercial independence of the country.
-----------------------------------
The Midnight Review
Only certain elements of the Republican Party support these supposedly populist movements. Since a lot of the rhetoric and signs are anti-Obama and promote the overthrow of the government (at least indirectly) these movements are to my mind as populist as the Ku Klux Klan during the 1920s and 1930s. The klan was popular and had a following similar to a grass roots movement in population distribution and income level. However, the ideas then expressed are similar to the ideas now expressed--negative and hateful rather than positive and progressive redressing a particular grievance.
That encompasses just about all of the left-wing rabble rousing.
You're comparing apples to zebras again.
Nasty right wingnut stupid dangerous conservatives who, like "Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh who pollute the airwaves through smears and innuendos" are not populists in the same way that
Nasty left wing dangerous liberals like Reverent Wright who "pollute the pulpit through smears and "G__D___ America" rhetoric aren't Progressives.
If you don't like the technique, why do you call me a "wingnut" based on my less than 50 word post. Do you know anything about me at all? Have you ever seen me defend Limbaugh or Beck?
You folks are in for a rude awakening if you write off the majority of conservatives or conservative leaning independents as radicals. I have attended two tea party events. I saw some things that I wasn't pleased with. The vast majority of what I saw convinces me that there is a deep strain of concern and a willingness to do what it takes to legally and lawfully turn the current congress and administration out of office in 2010 and 2012.
Got no problem with conservatives. We have a number of good conservative posters here. I think the midterm elections hang more on the disappointment on liberals, and thereby staying away from the poles, than any increase in GOP voters.
From, a well documented (I have it on a piece on paper here) egregarious monobrowed slob.
Oh...I get it.
Nasty right wingnut stupid dangerous conservatives who, like "Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh who pollute the airwaves through smears and innuendos" are not populists in the same way that
Nasty left wing dangerous liberals like Reverent Wright who "pollute the pulpit through smears and "G__D___ America" rhetoric aren't Progressives.
I used the exact same words (except I left out "stupid" and "wingnut" in describing Rev. Wright), to describe both ends of the spectrum to point out the inconsistency of Media Matters position.
I think that you are partially correct, the liberal disappointment is palpable. Polls indicate a large amount of movement away from the Obama camp on the part of independent voters as well and to ignore this is to put your head in the sand.
From the "belly of wingnutism"
Your a long long way from clarity of statement.
Your a long long way from understanding that disenchantment with the democratic party will not lead to any large increases in independent voters. They just don't vote at all.
Who are your independent candidates?
There are conservatives whose views on some issues I share and whose input adds to a reasonable discussion. Bill O'Reilly sometimes brings a reasonable perspective on some issues, for example. Because Hannity, Beck, and Limbaugh have little more than high school educations, I think their perspective is limited. (They apparently do not understand the scientific method, the science behind global warming, or the science of evolution.) They are not populists because of the lack of education even though they seem to be popular.
Climate scientists displayed a huge disdain for science by cooking the research books to attempt to score political points.
Those who have graduate degrees and should know better, but deliberately set out to deceive the world into spending trillions of dollars and doubling and tripling energy costs in the midst of our worst economic difficulties since the great depression, are the people that make me frightened and angry.
My "revulsion" is reserved for such people.
If you are a person who looks objectively at the world, what constitutes evidence for you?
Now, are any of you (that being yourself and other Conservatives) willing to rebuke any of the statements made by many of the right-wing pundits? To say nothing is to accept it and allow the fear and hate-mongering vitriol to persist and fester.
I take them all with numerous grains of salt. I read widely, on a number of issues. History is my chosen area of emphasis. I believe in having my own opinions and thoughts and taking my own action, taken after reading widely and taking careful consideration.
It is my belief that President Obama has gotten himself into an untenable position. My perception is that he ran for the presidency as a centrist. He spent the first year governing from a liberal position (i.e. cap and trade, health reform, and stimulus with the accompanying ballooning deficits), which angered and alienated the centrist independents. Any centrist positions he has taken, in an attempt to keep the center happy, are perceived as a betrayal by the left and he is starting to lose his base (i.e. Afghanistan).
If something dramatic doesn't happen he is headed for a single term.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/01/police-break-into-home-ev_n_375795.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/01/police-break-into-home-ev_n_375795.html
congero:
Your perception is flawed and therefore your analysis is way off. Setting aside your BS about deficits(they only seem to matter when a democrats in office)
"It is important though to recognize if we keep on adding to the debt, even in the midst of this recovery, that at some point, people could lose confidence in the U.S. economy in a way that could actually lead to a double-dip recession."
- President Barack Obama, interview quoted by Reuters, November 18, 2009
Even the Pres. is starting to see the light. Deficits mattered to me when George Bush was in office, and they matter even more now that they have tripled or quadrupled. The majority of those polled seem to feel the same way.
You make my point. You think the Pres. is a centrist.
Did you see the howls of protest from progressives after the Afghanistan speech last night? The Pres. tried to make everyone happy and now no one is happy.
http://www.salon.com/news/afghanistan/index.html?story=/opinion/walsh/politics/2009/12/01/afghanistan_speech
Your perception of cap and trade and health reform as centrist compromises demonstrate the tight spot the Pres. is in.
Independents see him as moving too far to the left. Progressives are appalled that he is too far to the center.
Loss of centrist enthusiasm + loss of base = loss of political clout and loss of office.
The jobless rate is above 10% and the deficits, as the Pres. points out in the earlier quote, are not going to help. Short term job misery, long term indebtedness with either/or inflation and huge tax increases. Can you say misery index?
What would you like to do to them if you could?
Any violence in mind?
Just curious.
Hmmm, fair question. But I'd offer to tutor any of them so they could go on to get their GED.
We would be happy to tutor you as well. I'm sure you find it surprising that wingnuts and knuckledraggers are actually educated.
Our family are active in conservative causes. I don't recall ever inciting anyone to violence. But I do certainly intend to do everything within my power to see that my Senator and my congressional representative are voted out next November and that President Obama is a one term president. I don't really care whether someone calls me a populist, a conservative or an activist.
Names aren't what define me. Who I am and what I do defines me.
I have no personal animosity for any of the folks I'm working to vote out. I have great animosity for the legislation they are trying to ram through congress and for the point of view they represent.
[url=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKKKgua7wQk[/url]
Nuff said.
Oh, your degree citations and almost degree citations don't scare me none. Been there, done that. However, based on your posts I'd still term you undereducated. That can be corrected--call me an optimist.
Don't know why you thought I or others would like to inflict violence on you. While you are getting your education you might also consider a tune-up.
My citation were based on your "GED" remark which was a "cute" rejoinder but generalizes in the same way that many here accure conservative of generalizing.
Your education doesn't overawe me much either. So I suppose we are even on that score.
Agreed. It's just that, in my experience, the extremists on the right tend to be better armed.
Also, unlike what you seem to think, the plural of "anecdote" is not "data". Anyone can claim the family history you do, without backing it up or giving anyone any way at all of verifying it. And in the end, it is meaningless. As the old New Yorkercartoon stated so well, "On the Internet, no one knows you're a dog."
If you think I'm lying that is your problem, not mine. It may be indicative of some liberals who trust no one. In the end the same things apply to you.
I would be happy to challenge you to a world affairs test any day of the week.
I don't know whether you're lying, and I don't care if you're lying. What I do know is that what you say is unverifiable, and therefore immaterial to this discussion.
From your postings, I doubt if your "world affairs test" would be non-partisan. And your challenge is moot, anyway because there's no way you can bring about the test you claim to want. And you know that. So stop hiding behind phony bluster and anecdote and back up your claims with facts.
I have members of my family who are registered republicans who voted for President Obama. They expressed the belief that he was a smart man who would govern from the center and they didn't see much difference between his message and that of John McCain.
They are beginning to be concerned about the President's direction since the election.
I applaud you civility.
Nice to talk intelligently with people even when we disagree.
In general, just because you're educated doesn't necessarily mean you're smart.
It's undeniably true that virtually everyone who went ga-ga over the climate change emails was ill-informed about the emails and what the snippets they quoted meant.
That's not our failure. That's your side's failure. Our side doesn't have comparable amounts of similar failures.
You have your right to your opinion.
I am on the side of full disclosure. If the facts, all of them prove global warming then great. But it was pretty ill informed of scientists to try to hide data or hush up the other side. If they had been open and above board we wouldn't be having the fire storm about all this, right before the Copenhagen summit, and your side would be in better shape. Polls (Gallup, Rasmussen et.al.) show that the majority of
Americans agree with many of the points "pushed" by Fox news.
Aristotle pointed out the fallacy of arguing against someone by calling them uneducated. I guess you didn't get that memo.
There are lots of intelligent, well-educated people who can be brainwashed.
I take objection to your phrase ram through that is hardly the case. I would consider the way the PATRIOT ACT was enacted as being rammed through,but oh well. Just like you I will work twice as hard as you to elect canidates that support my view. I don't really care if they call me leftist, socialist, communist, community organizer or what have you. Names aren't what defines me. Who I am and what i do defines me.
Obamacare, two 2,000 page Bills, written in secret by Democrats, which they didn't even want posted on the internet 72 hours before voting on them, which won't become effective until 2013 but will be collected against as soon as passed, of which they want passed before Christmas. This is the very definition of rammed!
Versus:
The Patriot Act, which was necessary to save your masochistic self conger after 9/11 - as well as thousands if not millions of other Americans.
What on earth could prompt you leftists to be so unbelievably unable to think with any degree of logic? And then have the gall to call conservatives undereducated!
Pop-u-lism [pop-yuh-liz-uhm]
–noun 1. the political philosophy of the People's party.
2. (lowercase) any of various, often antiestablishment or anti-intellectual political movements or philosophies that offer unorthodox solutions or policies and appeal to the common person rather than according with traditional party or partisan ideologies.
3. (lowercase) grass-roots democracy; working-class activism; egalitarianism.
4. (lowercase) representation or extolling of the common person, the working class, the underdog, etc.: populism in the arts.
And I really liked how poor ole Eric is soooooo offended by people calling Obama a racist and Hitler and such - as if this was never done by the left about GW Bush! And the hypocrisy marches on.
I'm not sure how you're seeing any dysfunction or inconsistency in this sites noting the abuse by the right of two words in two days. Seems pretty consistent to me.
Have you retired from reality ?
Oh, and while I'm at it I notice that "whining" is your favorite descriptive verb for "wingnuts".
Can't you make a point without adding insult?
Just curious.
"Wingnut" is more shorthand than insult. If I say "conservative",some conservative will say that certain people on the far right aren't really conservatives. I don't like to generalize with "Republicans" when talking about some extreme elements.
When I first started posting here, there was a group of conservatives who would regularly refer to the lefties as "moonbats", and we called them wingnuts. If this language is too rough for you, you might try a nice Christian childrens' chat forum. If it's boring, just skip it.
If you're blaming the vulgarity of "teabagger" on me, you're way off. It was those people at the tea party events who started calling themselves by that name.
I post here off and on during the day, while taking breaks from the rest of my life. I'm sorry I'm not mixing up enough words for your liking, but maybe you could find something to do other than play grandmother/ politeness police and it won't bother you so much.
"Whining" is quite possibly my favorite descriptive verb for wingnuts, you may be right on that one. "Quacking" is probably my favorite when talking about ducks.
I'm just expressing my opinions here like everybody else, and making observations. If you feel those observations apply to you, and you think they're insulting, do you take any responsibility? Is there any chance you may want to do less whining, or is it easier to just wish that other people would stop noticing you whining?
You might also notice a few insults in your post - Lack of originality,vulgarity,monotony,banality,my inability to make a point without being insulting - these are all your opinions, and I'm just fine with them. If I thought they applied, however, I might try to fix my problems, instead of complaining* to you about mentioning them.
* "complaining" is sort of a synonym for "whining. I hope you appreciate that, let me know if you have any other words you'd prefer.
Well, since you called me a wingnut, I assumed you were identifying me with the more radical elements who want to go storm the Whitehouse, rather than with Republicans. I just have found that names and categories don't always work.
I think I have just as much right to play "Grandmother Politeness Police" as you have to call me a wingnut. Fair enough. If it bugs you or bores you you don't have to comment.
I didn't say that you were wrong to insult folks while making points. I just asked it it was possible to make points without.
Hey complaining is a good synonym. Very original.
Nice playing mind games with you.
Well played !
My mother is in her 70's and she called me up one day during the "August From Hell of Town Hall Meetings", and told me for the first time in her life, she is really scared about what is going on this country. Now, this is woman who went through the Great Depression as a child, WWII, the Kennedy Tragedies and Watergate.
Your mother should be afraid of what the administration's current policies will do to the economy. I'm 55 and they scare me to death.
Your mother may be fortunate and not live long enough to see the impact of the tremendous debt burden being laid on the shoulders of the tax payers. You and I will probably not be so lucky if a sea change doesn't occur at the voting booth in 2010 and 2012.
You mean the recession that President Obama inherited?
commonman:
yep. ecaserbated by the housing bubble contributed to by loosening the loan requirements and messing with Fanny Mae and Freddie Mac in Clinton's day.
conger:
People are suffering today as I have linked for you,and all you have is some future scenarios?
commonman:
I lost my job last January and am trying to start up a samll business. I'm just a bit acquainted with the worry and suffering. Don't see much that the stimulus did that has helped me personally.
conger:
Deficits,deficits is what you scream but every time a conservative takes office all they do is run up the deficits leaving it to a democrat to clean up,and don't give me this Obama has trippled the deficit BS. How would you determine that ,since two wars and the prescription drug benefit were not even placed on the budget while taxes were cut benefiting mostly the top 1%.
commonman:
http://blog.heritage.org/2009/03/24/bush-deficit-vs-obama-deficit-in-pictures/
conger:
That was insane,and it is insanity to ignore the suffering and sacrifices of people today due to the reckless greed and policies of the conservatives of the last 8yrs.
commonman:
And the current deficit projections make Bush looks like a rank amateus when it comes to size. Good grief! If it was reckless under Bush and we've tripled them what do you call that...responsible?
conger:
What scares me is the irrationality of the arguments coming from the conservative right about how to fix this country and the calling of this president a socialist/communist/fascist who doesn't share "our" values.
commonman:
Did you see me call him any of those three names? I will be happy to call him reckless.
conger:
Your right in one though you can't speak for everyone who oppose Obama,but race is definetly a component and far from "getting over it" we need to confront it's ugly head whenever it rears it's head.
commonman:
We elected a black president. My daughter voted for him. I told her to follow her conscience and vote for whoever she thought best. You are confusing policy disagreements with racism. That is dangerous in its own right.
conger:
I find your statement quite telling for someone who considers themselves informed,care to explain how President Obama hates "white culture?"
commonman:
Why should I? that is not a contention that I have made. I don't think the vast majority of this opposition is race based.
conger:
I'll again post a link of real stories of people suffering today not tomorrow(through no fault of their own)from conservative policies and all you got is to let them suffer,because it will be worse in the future.
commonman:
If you were suffering from cancer and the cure was a short term misery from chemotherapy but the long term consequence for avoiding the misery was death, which would you choose?
Remember I am one of the unemployed. I prefer the chemo.
conger:
What scares me is the change (although I'am not clear what changes you're talking about or how the country has suddenly been stolen)you may want.
commonman:
I never said the country had been stolen. But I did say that I will make every effort to vote democrats and President Obama out of office in the next tow election cycles. That would be a legal and lawful exchange of power that is Constitutionally correct.
conger:
I'll take the wisdom and experience of Barbars 70yr. old mother over some abstract paranoid con anyday.
commonman:
Pardon me, but if you read the posts carefully, you are the person who sounds the most paranoid. Please show me where I have said anything that is a "con". What have I said that is hateful? What names have I called you or anyone else here?
conger:
We are in a mess but President Obama didn't start or ask for it and he should be given time to clean it up.
commonman:
25% of his time is up. If he doesn't figure things out soon I sincerely doubt that he'll get a second term chance.
conger:
forgot the link. I'd be interested in your comments on the article:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/12/01/police-break-into-home-ev_n_375795.html
commonman:
My son faces foreclosure as well. I am running out of money that I saved over the years. In six months if I don't find a way to make the business work I may be facing the same.
The worst thing that we could do is to prolong the recession and the unemployment (which will happen if we don't get spending under control) and then double energy costs by passing cap and trade. If that happens you will see many more such sad stories.
I'd particularly interested in where he's getting his info on the amount of debt that he's assigning to Obama.
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/69923-cbo-stimulus-saved-or-created-as-many-as-16m-jobs
and like I said only 1/3 of the money has been spent. It seems it takes more than 10 months to fix 8yrs of greed,deregulation and mismangement.
You speak of tax-increases yet Presidnet Obama has proposed tax-reductions for families making less than $250,000 dollars and individuals making less than $200,000. 95% of the population will see a tax reduction,while the remaining 5% will see their top tax rates return to the pre-Bush rates of 39% from 36% a 3% increase, hardly suffocating or stifling or a threat to our democracy since they have been much higher in the past ; and under Republican presidents,Reagan comes to mind. And as to the major cause of the problems we are facing today it wasn't President Obama who created this mess:
"...As for the deficit’s cause, the single most important factor is the legacy of President George W. Bush’s legislative agenda. Overall, changes in federal law during the Bush administration are responsible for 40 percent of the short-term fiscal problem. For example, we estimate that the tax cuts passed during the Bush presidency are reducing government revenue collections by $231 billion in 2009. Also, because of the additions to the federal debt due to Bush administration policies, the government will be paying $218 billion more in interest payments in 2009.
Had President Bush not cut taxes while simultaneously prosecuting two foreign wars and adopting other programs without paying for them, the current deficit would be only 4.7 percent of gross domestic product this year, instead of the eye-catching 11.2 percent—despite the weak economy and the costly efforts taken to restore it. In 2010, the deficit would be 3.2 percent instead of 9.6 percent..."
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2009/08/deficit_numbers.html
I suggest you read this study titled "Whose to blame for the deficit numbers."
Administration Change in National Debt as % of GNP …… Verdict…..
_____________________________________________________________
Eisenhower………………… -16.2%……………………………… Outstanding
Kennedy/Johnson……….. -16.5%……………………………… Outstanding
Nixon/Ford…………………. -2.8%………………………………. Adequate
Carter…………………………. -3.2% ……………………………….One term only
Reagan……………………… +20.5% ……………………………..Impeachable
Bush Sr……………………… +13.1% ……………………………..Shameful
Clinton………………………… -8.8%……………………………… Very good
Bush Jr……………………… +12.4%*……………………………. Unacceptable
http://brual.wordpress.com/2008/08/27/republican-economic-disinformation/
You might want to take a look at this article, it exposes another Republican myth about who is better for the economy and more fiscally responsible.
As I said there is a difference in spending and the conditions under which they are done. We are trying to get out of a recession and as the economy slowly rights itself revenue will increase and the deficit will shrink. Health insurance reform will lower the deficits under the bills being debated and the way for paying for them are provided for unlike under Bush. This reform is necessary to bring down cost and increase coverage, unlike today where the uninsured either die(45,000 per/yr)or have their bills added onto the public debt. Health insurance reform is part of deficit reduction and responsible spending and it is the right thing to do. I'am surprised you don't understand this since you will probably benefit from reform(I'am assuming you also lost your healthcare coverage with your unemployment)since the major cause in the increase of personal bankruptcies are medical bills and most of those are from people who had pvt. health insurance.
Cap and trade as I previously said is a compromise,Lindsey Graham supports it and you would hardly call him "left" of center, but the projections on the economy I've seen talk about not being felt until 2020 and there is alot of misinformation being passed around by your side about the cost in money and jobs. Cap and trade will not double energy cost that is a Republican "lie."
"...Gary Yohe, Woodhouse/Sysco Professor of Economics at Wesleyan University in Connecticut, told FactCheck.org that "job loss estimates are very difficult to interpret." He added: "The partisan estimates bracket the range of possibility, I suppose, but neither can really be believed."
http://www.factcheck.org/2009/10/cap-and-trade-green-jobs-or-job-killer/
I apologize for my cut and paste, I found the authors of the articles and studies done explained themselves better than I could make the point and although it made my post longer I held to my standard of backing up my opinion with facts. You asked in your rebuttal to show where you had used "cons" in your argument,well your whole argument that Obama is governing to the "left" is a con as I've pointed out, and your pledge to vote out democrats and President Obama implies that democrats are a tax and spend party and that is not held up by the facts. Your implication that the government forcing banks to make loans to people who couldn't afford their contribution to the collaspe of the economy is a fallacy. From the stimulus effects-to healthcare reform your whole arguments amount to a castle made of sand, if I could borrow a line from a famous Hendrix tune. Which is what is perplexing about your tea-bagger movement,WTF is it about? Just what are you angry about? Your spending argument just does not make sense as I've shown and although you may deny it "race" does make up a part of your movement as do those who call Obama "socialist" and the rest of it. You are entitled to your opinions and I applaud your pledge to act lawfully be just as assured that "I" am just as committed (not to ensure that President Obama is reelected) but that this government lives up to it's responsibilities. 45,000 deaths/yr(greater than the last 3 wars fought)due to lack of health insurance is unacceptable. Funding for wars for natural resources and empire while people loose their homes and children are thrown into the streets is unacceptable. Hunger in this day in age is unacceptable especially while CEO's get paid up to 400x's an average laborers salary. It is unacceptable that the top 1% own more wealth than the combined wealth of the bottom 50% of the population. It is unacceptable that working people are always asked to wait for change(never enough money)and Goldman Sachs/Exxon record record profits. Ok I'am through.
If we take the recession as being the cancer what would be the chemo?
commonman:
We don't feed the tumor, we starve it, we destroy it. If we don't it grows until it kills all the healthy tissue.
The private sector GNP is the healthy cells. If you replace private sector jobs with government jobs supported by taxes, you are not feeding the healthy cells that can reproduce and create more healthy cells, (increased GNP, more jobs, etc). If the government jobs supported by tax dollars replace private sector jobs, GNP appears to grow, but that is just the tumor getting larger. Government does not create real wealth, but only redistributes existing wealth. If the trend continues the tax revenues dry up and the tumor dies, but only after the patient is already dead.
conger:
"...The nonpartisan CBO said in a legally mandated report that the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (ARRA) had resulted in between 600,000 and 1.6 million jobs for the U.S. economy that wouldn't have existed in the absence of the stimulus..."
commonman:
President Obama said that the stimulus was necessary to keep unemployment from going over 8%. Now unemployment is at 10.2%. Excuse me for not being impressed by the stimulus. CBO is all over the board on so many things that I find it hard to accept as a reliable tool. We have seen numerous cases where jobs "saved or created" has been inflated by even adding jobs in congressional districts that don't exist.
You speak of tax-increases yet Presidnet Obama has proposed tax-reductions for families making less than $250,000 dollars and individuals making less than $200,000. 95% of the population will see a tax reduction,while the remaining 5% will see their top tax rates return to the pre-Bush rates of 39% from 36% a 3% increase...
commonman:
http://denver.bizjournals.com/denver/blog/finance_etc/2009/12/andrew_friedman_bet_on_death_taxes_and_more_taxes.html
"Nothing is sure in this world but death and taxes, to paraphrase Benjamin Franklin. But it’s a near certainty that your own taxes will rise in 2011, says Andrew Friedman, an attorney and well-known speaker on U.S. tax policy.
"“Absent a precipitous downturn in the economy next year, I think it is virtually a foregone conclusion that we will see these [higher] rates when 2011 rolls around,” Friedman said. “We may even see some increases next year, as a big tax bill works through Congress to deal with the expiration of the Bush cuts, corporate tax reform and estate tax reform.”
"Friedman spoke to roughly two dozen investors Wednesday morning at a breakfast at the Brown Palace Club, sponsored by UBS Financial Services.
"This year’s federal deficit is $1.4 trillion, roughly THREE TIMES as much as in 2008, and equal to nearly 10 percent of U.S. gross domestic product, Friedman noted. The deficit is forecast to reach $1.5 trillion in 2010 — and that’s before figuring in the U.S. troop surge in Afghanistan that President Barack Obama announced Tuesday night.
Spending cuts alone will never fill the gap, even if a Democrat-controlled Congress were willing to do it, Friedman said. So taxes will rise.
conger:
"...As for the deficit's cause, the single most important factor is the legacy of President George W. Bush's legislative agenda. Overall, changes in federal law during the Bush administration are responsible for 40 percent of the short-term fiscal problem.
commonman:
That leaves 60% of the responsibility with the current administration. The increase in the deficit this year alone is staggering.
http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2009/08/deficit_numbers.html
I suggest you read this study titled "Whose to blame for the deficit numbers."
Administration Change in National Debt as % of GNP Verdict¦..
Eisenhower -16.2% Outstanding
Commonman: (no war)
Kennedy/Johnson -16.5% Outstanding
Commonman:(good. Kennedy was a fiscal conservative)
Nixon/Ford -2.8% Adequate
Commonman: (good)
Carter -3.2%.One term only
Commonman: (Double digit unemployment, interest rates and inflation. Misery index very high)
Reagan +20.5% ..Impeachable
Commonman: (Democratic controlled congress, spending originates there)
Bush +13.1%Shameful
Commonman: (ditto Reagan comments)
Clinton -8.8% Very good
Commonman: (Republican congress...hmmm...see a patern here?)
Bush +12.4%. Unacceptable
(Bad.)
http://brual.wordpress.com/2008/08/27/republican-economic-disinformation/
You might want to take a look at this article, it exposes another Republican myth about who is better for the economy and more fiscally responsible.
Commonman:
So where is Obama on the list above? And if Reagan, with a Democratic controlled congress was impeachable, how is tripling Bushes worst ever (before Obama) deficits acceptable or even laudable?
Watch the following you tube link:
THE NATIONAL DEBT ROAD TRIP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5yxFtTwDcc&feature=channel
Translated in MPH
1900-1930 5 mph
Roosevelt 40 mph
Reagan 50 mph
HWBush 63 mph
Clinton 18 mph
GWBush 64 mph
Obama 174 MPH!!!!
So you swipe Eisenhowers numbers away with there was no war. I thought you might want to claim him since he was a Republican, oh but then again he expanded Social Security(yikes)and started the interstate highway system ; more government jobs that did nothing for the economy. John Kennedy was a fiscal conservative? If you say so,but you conveniently ignored the Lyndon Johnson who served in office alot longer than JK and oversaw the escalation of the Viet Nam War and the "War on Poverty" and the creation of the MediCare and still came away with an outstanding rating. That doesn't fit your rational about Eisenhower does it,must be something else at work here other than your explanation about GDP and how we should fear deficits. Keep trying I'am sure you can find a way to twist figures to fit what you like. Moving on down the list Nixon/Ford you agree with. Hmmm how strange. Maybe it was Nixons wage and price controls you enjoyed or the long lines at the gas station ,maybe it was his use of governmental agencies to do his dirty work on people and/or organizations he deemed his enemies? Oh I know it was,his call for the abolition of the gold standard and the end of our involvement in the Bretton Woods Agreement. So much for financial responsibility. But then Nixon resigned( I'll spare your the gory details)and left Gerald Ford with a recession the worst since the Great Depression(at the time)with increased inflation(OMG). I guess the recession with the resultant inflation made Gerald less than a 1 term president since he lost turning a economy in recession over to Jimmy Carter who you said presided over double digit unemployment and inflation.
Year Inflation Rate
(percent) Unemployment
Rate (percent)
1973 6.2 4.8
1974 11.0 5.5
1975 9.1 8.3
1976 5.8 7.6
1977 6.5 6.9
1978 7.7 6.0
1979 11.3 5.8
1980 13.5 7.0
Source: Statistical Abstract of the United States
As you see from the chart supplied from the statistical abstract. First line the dates, second the inflation rates , and third the unemployment rates. While unemployment was high 7% when he left office it was not double digits and although inflation was high he did take over an economy in recession, but either way it was the economy and the Iran hostage crisis that led to Ronald Reagans victory in 1980. But given that his numbers were better than Nixon/Ford who you gave a good rating to. N/F= -2.8 CM says good , JC= -3.2 . Oh well another annoying fact that doesn't fit. Lets move on. Ronald Reagan, CM comments it was the democractic congresses fault this time since they controll spending(this is important to you I know since you will use it to twist how it was the repubulican congress in the 90's that balanced the budget,you cons are so predictable). So does that mean that it wasn't Reagan who defeated the Soviet Union single-handidly(yippy). Again Reagan raised taxes especially SS pay roll taxes that hurt those who work for wages for a living(another one of your starve the tumor cases?)while at the same times increasing military spending and sold arms to our enemies to go around congresses Boland admendment to fund his dirty war against Nicaragua virtually committing an act of war against a tiny nation. Oh thats right he had a habit of that we also defeated big bad Grenada. Lets see he also deregulated the Savings & Loan banking industry(sound fiscal policy)which resulted in the crash of that system again throwing us into a recession and chalking up deficits that broke Nixon/Ford records. What was the final sum of that government bailout? $500 billion. Reagan talked a good deficit game but like most of you cons he didn't walk the walk. GW Bush read my lips no new taxes,well we know how that story ended again you conveniently blame it on the congress,so much truth and honesty. Then we come to Clinton who actually balanced the budget and left GW with a surplus who quickly with a Republican congress turned a surplus into a record deficit breaking all previous records(see a pattern here?) and leaving the incoming President with an economy tinkering on Depression with rising unemployment,two wars not figured for 8 yrs in the budget(of course to hide the cost and it's effects on the deficit)started a prescription drug program without a way to pay for and again off the budget all the while telling us to spend while he gave away tax-cuts that benefited mostly the wealthy with little bribes of 300-600 dollars to us little folk as he slashed needed services and payments to the states. He left Obama with this from the article who is most responsible for the debt(hint: Obama is not responsible for 60%):
"...For example, we estimate that the tax cuts passed during the Bush presidency are reducing government revenue collections by $231 billion in 2009. Also, because of the additions to the federal debt due to Bush administration policies, the government will be paying $218 billion more in interest payments in 2009." This is not including that during a recession government revenues decrease exacerbating the problem. You asked why Obama was not figured into the study,well the obvious is that the effects of his policies have not been fully realized. The economy despite what your ideology compels you think will turn around with all the benefits and economic indicator upswings. It's late and I'am getting tired so I'll wrap it up with a comment on your econmic mph graph. It doesn't make sense. Under Roosevelt our debt as a % of GDP was much higher than it is today yet your graph places it at only 40mph while Obamas is a ridiculous 174mph. I would have to believe that less is worse and worse is good, that up is down and down is up, and I'am sorry not even using your cherry picking skills would I fall for that,since as I said the debt as a % of our GDP was higher under Roosevelt(WWII,and later Marshall Program and the GI Bill and the expansion of the middle class=government spending programs...oops)than under President Obama. Oh and by the way, those tumors you want to starve,they are actually people. Nice talking with you but I ain't buying.
Thanks for finally responding to the graph from the study of who is most responsible for the debt. I find it hard to take 10 yr projections on the budget as serious or very accurate.
commonman:
"Finally responding"? I answered you just over 2 hours after you posted and ate dinner and had two meetings out of the house in between. It didn't take that much to respond.
You're right it is hard to take the 10 year projections seriously. They will end up being worse than that if all the programs pass congress that are currently proposed.
conger:
unemployment was high 7% when he left office it was not double digits
commonman:
You are correct, I was wrong. The rest of the misery index still stands.
conger:
either way it was the economy and the Iran hostage crisis that led to Ronald Reagans victory in 1980.
commonman:
Right you are. That should be a sobering lesson for Obama and Co.
conger:
Roosevelt our debt as a % of GDP was much higher than it is today yet your graph places it at only 40mph while Obamas is a ridiculous 174mph. I would have to believe that less is worse and worse is good, that up is down and down is up, and I'am sorry not even using your cherry picking skills would I fall for that,since as I said the debt as a % of our GDP was higher under Roosevelt(WWII,and later Marshall Program and the GI Bill and the expansion of the middle class=government spending programs...oops)
commonman:
http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/federal_deficit_chart.html
The only times when the % of deficits to GDP were higher was just before the great depression, just coming out of the great depression and into the biggest war in the history of the world and when the first stimulus passed. (For which independent voters, worried about the ecoonomy voted out President Bush) The preceding spikes presaged economic disaster, with the exception of WWII which pulled us out of the depression.
The G.I. Bill, and the highway system were bills that led to private sector jobs not government jobs
like the CCC or the WPA.
conger:
Oh and by the way, those tumors you want to starve,they are actually people. Nice talking with you but I ain't buying.
commonman:
Wrong, the tumors are government jobs, the healthy cells are private sector jobs. Higher deficits will equal harder times, less jobs and hurt more of the people that you are so concerned with.
I'm not willing to buy that.
2010 and 2012 will tell.
Cap and trade will not double energy cost that is a Republican "lie."
commonman:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqHL404zhcU
President Obama admits from his own mouth that energy costs under Cap and Trade "will necessarily skyrocket"
Is that a "Republican lie"?
conger:
Cap and trade as I previously said is a compromise,Lindsey Graham supports it and you would hardly call him "left" of center
commonman:
If that is a "compromise" I would shiver at the full blown uncompromised version! Lindsay Graham apparently bought into the lie.
You asked in your rebuttal to show where you had used "cons" in your argument,well your whole argument that Obama is governing to the "left" is a con as I've pointed out,
commonman:
And as I have pointed out in my reply, your statistics are faulty.
conger:
your pledge to vote out democrats and President Obama implies that democrats are a tax and spend party and that is not held up by the facts.
commonman:
I'm not implying it. I am stating it in clear loud plain fashion. The Democratic congress did it when Reagan was President as well as when GHWBush was pres.
The republican congress put the brakes on Clinton in 1994. Now Obama and the Democratic congress are driving the National Debt road trip car at 174 MPH. The fastest it had ever been driven previously was 64 MPH. This is not sustainable.
conger:
Your implication that the government forcing banks to make loans to people who couldn't afford their contribution to the collaspe of the economy is a fallacy.
commonman:
This says you are wrong.
http://www.forbes.com/2009/02/13/housing-bubble-subprime-opinions-contributors_0216_peter_wallison_edward_pinto.html
conger:
From the stimulus effects-to healthcare reform your whole arguments amount to a castle made of sand, if I could borrow a line from a famous Hendrix tune.
commonman:
Actually, my arguments as backed here by facts, are quite solid, (Hendrix borrowed the house made of sand from the Bible)
conger:
Which is what is perplexing about your tea-bagger movement,WTF is it about? Just what are you angry about?
commonman:
It isn't "my" movement. It is the imperative to remove democrats from power by legal Constitutional means so they don't wreck the economy and the country with such ill considered measures as Cap and Trade, Health Reform and more stimulus packages to dirve the National Debt Road trip car even faster.
conger:
Your spending argument just does not make sense as I've shown
commonman:
It does make sense as I have shown.
conger:
and although you may deny it "race" does make up a part of your movement as do those who call Obama "socialist" and the rest of it.
commonman:
I have no doubt that there are some wackos on the far fringe of each party who are racist. The tea party folks who are racist are in the tiny minority, just as the leftists who bear a racist grudge against whites are a tiny minority. The opposition to the president and his party have to do with huge disagreements as to the wisdom and workabliity of their policies, not the color of their skin.
conger:
You are entitled to your opinions and I applaud your pledge to act lawfully
copmmonman:
How else would I act? Don't treat me as if I am the exception. I am not.
conger:
be just as assured that "I" am just as committed (not to ensure that President Obama is reelected) but that this government lives up to it's responsibilities.
commonman:
Your idea of governmental responsibilites and mine differ greatly, needless to say.
conger:
45,000 deaths/yr(greater than the last 3 wars fought)due to lack of health insurance is unacceptable.
commonman:
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Lies, Statistics, and the 45,000 dead from lack of insurance
September 21, 2009, 2:44PM
The shocking headlined screamed "45,000 die each year from lack of health insurance". WOW! That sounds bad. Now let's see how they came up with that.
from :http://www.boston.com/news/health/blog/2009/09/uninsured_hold.html
"Researchers from Cambridge Health Alliance report in the American Journal of Public Health on a study that followed 9,005 adults under 65 years old who took part in a national survey conducted by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention from 1986 through 1994. After 12 years, 351 people had died. Sixty of them were uninsured and 291 were insured. "
From this, and based on the estimate of 40 million uninsured, they extrapolated 45,000 deaths per year. Nowhere did they investigate the cause of the deaths, they simply attributed all deaths to lack of insurance to get the shocking headline number. So, using their logic, the 291 others deaths in the study must be attributed having insurance. Therefore having insurance increases your risk of death by 500%! YES! Almost a quarter of a million killed each year because they have insurance, and Obama wants EVERYONE to have insurance? Aren't enough people dying already? What kind of a monster is he?
(For the sarcasm impaired, I realize this is absurd and a complete misrepresentation of the data. The point is that the original 'study' is just as absurd, but no one bothered to look critically at the data because it supported their agenda.)
conger:
Funding for wars for natural resources and empire while people loose their homes and children are thrown into the streets is unacceptable.
commonman:
Prove that the war starting in 2001 was fought for "natural resources and empire".
conger:
Hunger in this day in age is unacceptable
commonman:
And there will be more of it if the Obama agenda passes
conger:
especially while CEO's get paid up to 400x's an average laborers salary. It is unacceptable that the top 1% own more wealth than the combined wealth of the bottom 50% of the population.
commonman:
You better hope they have enough money to pay taxes because, baby, we're going to need it all to support the highest deficts in U.S. history. We are spending more this year than was spent in the previous 234 years of American history.
conger:
It is unacceptable that working people are always asked to wait for change(never enough money)and Goldman Sachs/Exxon record record profits.
commonman:
I can't help it if Obama and crew were stupid with TARP money. Typical of the way waste, fraud and abuse go with a government program. And you want us to trust the Government to run the environment and health care with this kind of record. Thank you...NO.
conger:
Ok I'am through.
commonman:
me too.
I have enjoyed bringing conversations to a screeching halt with people foaming at the mouth about how Obama is a socialist. I simply say, "Define socialism." Seems the people who are so upset about it don't really know what the word means, they just know it's bad.
There is an uncomfortable irony here in that for the past eight years the f-word was taboo. In the strictest sense of the word, the Bush Administration was fascist. (Look it up.) But you couldn't say that.
It's important to note that it is not the (cough) populist movement calling itself such, it is the MEDIA labeling them as such. How funny that Beck is the supposed leader of their movement but claims not to be -- because he doesn't know what it means.
The MEDIA of its own accord is creating the myth that the Beck/Limbaugh/Coulter cabal is populist, when they are, in fact, the exact opposite.