How did media cover GOP's 2003 use of reconciliation? They didn't
For weeks, the news media have been obsessed with the question of whether congressional Democrats would use a legislative mechanism known as "reconciliation" to pass changes to the health care reform legislation that passed the Senate in late December.
Unfortunately, that obsession has not actually resulted in reporters consistently getting the story right. Basic facts that should be central to the debate over the propriety of reconciliation have gotten lost in the mix. First, nobody is talking about passing the entire health care reform package via reconciliation -- the Senate has already passed its bill, and did so by overcoming a filibuster. Reconciliation would, instead, be used to pass a much smaller package of changes to that legislation via majority vote. Second, there is nothing hasty or debate-stifling about using reconciliation in this case: Congress has been considering health care reform for more than a year. Finally, reconciliation isn't all that unusual, having been used in connection with some of the highest-profile legislation in recent decades, including President Bush's tax cuts and the welfare reform bill President Clinton signed. Those are facts, and they are not in dispute.
And yet the media are referring to reconciliation as the "nuclear option" and portraying it as an obscure procedural gimmick being considered in an attempt to circumvent Senate rules and "ram" health care legislation through Congress. The conservative media are going so far as to claim that use of reconciliation would be "unprecedented."
Funny, I don't remember this level of media outrage in 2003, when Republicans passed President Bush's tax cut legislation via reconciliation.
But what's really striking about the media's approach to reconciliation is how much it differs from the way they treated the Republicans' use of reconciliation to pass President Bush's 2003 tax cut legislation. Only two Democrats voted for that bill -- one of whom, Georgia Sen. Zell Miller, doesn't really count, as he was a de facto Republican -- and Vice President Dick Cheney had to break a 50-50 tie. (Three Senate Republicans joined 46 Democrats and one independent in voting against the bill, which these days would be described as "bipartisan opposition.")
And yet, in the weeks leading up to the reconciliation vote, the media didn't portray the Republicans as ramming tax cuts through Congress via unprecedented use of an obscure procedural gimmick to circumvent Senate rules. In fact, they didn't say much of anything at all about reconciliation.
The Senate reconciliation vote occurred on May 23, 2003. In the month of May, only one New York Times article so much as mentioned the use of reconciliation for the tax cuts -- a May 13, 2003, article that devoted a few paragraphs to wrangling over whether Senate Republicans could assign the bill number they wanted (S.2) to a bill approved via reconciliation. The Times also used the word "reconciliation" in a May 9, 2003, editorial, but gave no indication whatsoever of what it meant.
And that's more attention than most news outlets gave to the use of reconciliation that month. The Washington Post didn't run a single article, column, editorial, or letter to the editor that used the words "reconciliation" and "senate." Not one. USA Today, the Los Angeles Times, and the Associated Press were similarly silent.
Cable news didn't care, either. CNN ran a quote by Republican Sen. Chuck Grassley about the substance of the tax cuts in which he used the word "reconciliation" in passing -- but that was it. Fox News aired two interviews in which Republican members of Congress referred to the reconciliation process in order to explain why the tax cuts would be temporary, but neither they nor the reporters interviewing them treated reconciliation as a controversial tactic.
And ABC, CBS, NBC? Nothing, nothing, nothing.
Even the insider publications that tend to cover legislative minutia paid little attention to the Republicans' use of reconciliation. National Journal made passing mentions on May 3 and May 10, 2003, neither of which so much as hinted that reconciliation was unusual, inappropriate, or controversial. And Roll Call mentioned reconciliation exactly once: a May 14, 2003, article about Republican angst over having committed a "procedural snafu" that delayed their use of reconciliation. The article quoted Grassley saying of Senate parliamentarian Alan Frumin: "He could be technically right. ... But there's no need to have a strict interpretation of the rules like that." And, Roll Call noted, "Some GOP aides even hinted that Frumin's position as parliamentarian could be in danger if he continued to make rulings that disadvantaged their political goals."
You'd think that if reconciliation was really the controversial and heavy-handed tactic the media is currently portraying it as, there would have been a ton of media coverage of Senate Republican aides suggesting the parliamentarian would be fired if he didn't let the GOP handle reconciliation however they wanted. Particularly in light of the fact that Frumin was elevated to his post by the Senate Republican leadership in 2001 -- after they fired his predecessor for issuing rulings that complicated their efforts to use reconciliation for that year's round of tax cuts.
But there wasn't even a blip -- not a single mention in The New York Times, The Washington Post, or on ABC, CBS, NBC, or CNN. Well, that's not quite true: The Times did mention GOP unhappiness with Frumin on May 31, 2003, -- more than a week after the reconciliation vote took place.
Even if you look at the five months preceding the May 23, 2003, reconciliation vote, you find very little major media attention paid to the process. And when reconciliation was mentioned, it was only in passing, without any indication it was controversial. Like the March 14, 2003, Washington Post article that simply stated, "Parliamentary -- or 'reconciliation' -- language in both the Senate and House budget resolutions ... would ensure that a $ 726 billion tax package would need only 51 votes for Senate passage rather than the 60 votes needed to overcome a filibuster blocking a floor vote." Or Tim Russert's matter-of-fact statement on January 7, 2003: "[T]he Republicans are going to use a technique called reconciliation. It's a budget process where they would in effect take away the right of the Democrats to filibuster, which means you would only need 51 votes to pass this legislation." And that's about it: The Times, Post, the three broadcast networks and CNN combined for fewer than a half-dozen other mentions of the process over the course of five months, none of which portrayed it as controversial.
The current hyperventilation about the use of reconciliation is completely inconsistent with the way the media covered reconciliation in 2003. Back then, they didn't treat reconciliation as an unusual or controversial tactic -- in fact, they barely noticed it, even when Republicans made noises about firing the parliamentarian they elevated when they fired the previous parliamentarian.
Jamison Foser is a Senior Fellow at Media Matters for America, a progressive media watchdog and research and information center based in Washington, D.C. Foser also contributes to County Fair, a media blog featuring links to progressive media criticism from around the Web, as well as original commentary. You can follow him on Twitter and Facebook or sign up to receive his columns by email.




















OBOMA- cram thru the biggest govt takeover in history!
NOT EVEN CLOSE FOSER :-)
Cheers,
wix
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Seems Barry made a big deal out of it. You just weren't paying attention J.
Hypocrites thy name is liberal.
HCR passed with 60 votes. The reconciliation vote is for a small set of fixes based on several compromises.
Also, the article references the GOP's use of reconciliation in 2003. Your first quote from Obama is from 2004. Could you find quotes and media stories from 2003 to refute Foser's thesis?
Thanks in advance.
Not very well informed, are you?
The GOP has been equally as negligent in paying off the national debt, and tax cuts can be blamed for perpetuating the debt. If they were so concerned in not contributing to increasing the debt, the GOP would support a tax increase, or an increase in money earmarked, for the repayment. Every family that understands the value of a dollar knows that when times are tight, money needs to be re-prioritized. I would love to see a bill introduced into Congress calling for a tax that would go directly to the national debt... I would then love to see the GOP fight that one!
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The Midnight Review
$5.2 TRILLION in deficit spending during the Dubya years in total. He left with $4.9 trillion in new debt on top of $6.5 trillion when he came in.
Although only about $1.8 trillion of that was done with the nuclear option, I mean, reconciliation.
wizbor4654, that's your money, too.
Of course both parties are guilty, Coke-Pepsi, Burgerking-Macdonals, Exxon-Shell, Microsoft-Google, Democrat-Republican, we only have an illusion of choice, take the red pill and step outside the matrix. We live in a Duelopoly and will we all fight with each other while the Globalest Banking Cartel lol's and takes are money.
Wiz
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Baloney is a NICE way to classify it.
I was thinking on the lines that it might have 'saved' us $$'s at that time, but what about now, and what about in the future? SOMEONE is going to be paying for Bush's decisions.
How much did you, as a worker, keep from the Bush tax cuts? You don't have the slightest idea. You have no idea how tax policy affects your taxes.
(Hint: you're not rich)
"BOTH WORKED!"
The vapid emptiness of that statement makes the eyes bug out. It's not connected by the tiniest thread to any fact or understanding. The word "worked", as used here, doesn't even have any meaning. In literally 100% of all possible outcomes, theoretical or actual, the statement "both worked" would still have been posted.
Bush Tax Cuts After 2002: June 2002 CTJ Analysis http://bit.ly/aGtGWw
How do you figure the second of two unwise tax cuts that made us have huge deficits that taxpayers will have to cover for decades to come "didnt' cost the taxpayers any $"?
And fool that you are, this healthcare reform is actually going to cost LESS than either doing nothing or than doing the Republican-suggested reform!
And for Millionth time, WHAT "GOVERNMENT TAKEOVER"?!
Stop channelling Glenn Beck for a moment, and why don't you try and give even a single actual example of a "government takeover." It ain't happeneing, it ain't even being proposed. It a bunch of purile nonsense dremt up by RW-whack-jobs to get gullibel fools riled up.
It's nonsense.
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FAIL. Try again.
You need to stop "assuming" my friend, If glen beck agrees with something i say thats fine with me, but I sure as hell dont support a VAT tax nor am I anti free speech, both of which beck supports,( you saw what he did with van jones and medina?) I cant question my govt on 911?
Beck like Orelly like Obberman etc are all corporate shills. Take the red pill Eddie and step outside the matrix ;-)
wiz
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What exactly is our Government trying to take over? I doubt they're even able to take back Congress (or the Supreme Court,) though THAT might be nice. See... the point remains whether you're a fan of Glenn Beck or not: WHAT GOVERNMENT TAKEOVER?
I'm not goping to let you off the hook without answering that, even if you keep finding details to distract on.
The way I see things, it's all any politician can do to remain remotely independant of the church or corporate industry whitout one of those interests eventually unseating him. There's a tyranny of the minority all right, but it sure ain't the GOVERNMENT that calling the shots.
----------------------------------------------------
IMHO
wiz
InfoWarrior
WHAT GAVERNMENT TAKEOVER?!
I'll will take any additional posts from you that fail to answer this as a concession of my point that your original post claiming that Obama was trying to "cram thru the biggest govt takeover in history" was full of $#!t.
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In the words of Lord Edmund Blackadder, "Baldrick, I would advise you to make the explanation you are about to give... phenomenally good."
He may be obnoxious or arrogant or annoying, but he is no friend to the fiscal wants of corporations.
Good grief. False equivalency much?
You really, really think that slashing taxes for the rich, without cutting spending, actually DOESN'T COST the TAXPAYERS? LOL!
Wrong! Wrong on all counts! The tax cuts forthe wealthy cost the U.S billions. The undeclared/Illegal war in Iraq cost billions. The undeclared/Illegal war in Afghanistan cost billions. Your republican cronies were silent throughout the entire process. But as soon as a President takes office who is "not one of You", you attempt to obstruct and derail. Obama won the election and the republicans lost. Period.
This only makes sense if you actually believe all money belongs to govt. Since when does letting people keep what they earn cost the govt anything?
However you are correct on the rest. Illegal wars waged by the current and past presidents DO cost us.
Take the red pill coach.
The top 400 richest Americans paid only a 16.7% effective income tax rate between 2000-2007. America has made them a success, is that really fair that they pay back so little?
http://www.tax.com/taxcom/features.nsf/Articles/0DEC0EAA7E4D7A2B852576CD00714692?OpenDocument
The tax cutes were for the rich... Not the workers, nimrod.
Obviously many politicians have become incapable of defending themselves or what's right. We got in this cesspool with a giant assist from the media. If we don't organize against and take action against this media, there is no hope for a future. Media Matters and those remaining defenders of real journalism may be the only salvation for us and I wish they would really organize an all out uprising from us against the media that pulled us down this rat hole.
For over a year, now, the top political story in the U.S., bar none, is Republican obstructionism, but the press offers no sustained narrative on the matter, won't scandalize the behavior, and, in fact, one is hard pressed to find much of anything about it at all; line up all the coverage mentioning it and weed out all the he said/she said items (because this story deals in quantifiable, verifiable facts, and the suggestion that it's just opinion vs. opinion amounts to a lie), and you'd have almost nothing left, when, in fact, it should be the lead story almost every night.
The health care "reform" proposal advanced by Obama is based on several Republican health care "reform" proposals, but, initially, with a public option tacked on for cost-control purposes. That's a pretty damn important fact when Republicans start yelling "socialism" and "government takeover" and going to such insane lengths to stop it. Good luck in EVER hearing about that on the evening news, though.
(The reason the "Democratic" proposal for "reform" is identical to those Republican plans is a story in itself--they're both written by industry lobbyists.)
What Foser describes, here, is yet another example of the consequences of the corporate press refusal to offer any sort of context for what's happening in the health care debate. Reconciliation was a non-story when Republicans were using it, but great efforts are expended to make it appear as a scandal when Democrats do it. If the press had been providing the information about Republican obstructionism for the past year--and really, it goes back to their 2006 loss of congress--the wider public would immediately recognize the BS being shoveled by Republicans over this matter as just the latest in a long line of BS aimed at obstructing anything the Democrats have tried to do. If the story had ever been given the weight it deserved, the public would be sick of it and up in arms about it within a month.
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Left Hook! The Blog
http://lefthooktheblog.blogspot.com/
You lament that the press wont "scandalize" Republican moves? Are you serious? That is not their job, but you have given us a window into the liberal soul and what you think the job of the left leaning press is.
I'm assuming you had NO problems when the dems pulled the same hijinks during Reagan or Bush's terms, with not a whisper from the media I might add.
Republicans scandalize themselves through their behavior--all that's missing is press willingness to report it in a sustained, systematic way. That isn't some bizarre notion; the theory underpinning the free press has always been that it's the job of the press to act as a watchdog in exactly that way. The "left-leaning press" reports these items, but the "left-leaning press" (THE NATION, MOTHER JONES, this site) is microscopic; the problem, here, is with the right-wing corporate press that accounts for nearly all news media seen by the public.
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Left Hook! The Blog
http://lefthooktheblog.blogspot.com/
No... We lament that the press won't REPORT THE NEWS.
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The Midnight Review
OK dems...what constituency are you going to throw under the bus? Take your pick!
Randy
I'm proud of how Obama has chosen the high road, but I'll admit, it would be hard for me to have to face the daily negativity.
And the Republicans are only doing it to stay in power. How nice.
They are doing this to GET BACK in power. That is why they are so nasty.
Why don't the dems do this? I have no idea.
Consider Al Gore in 2000 election, explaining figures. George Bush called it all "fuzzy math" and moved on. No matter how much explaining Gore would later do, conservatives framed it as "fuzzy math", and for the simpletons out there, that's all it would ever be.
Obama did a great comparison during the summit, when discussing less government regulation, stating that we can have cheaper food, although at an increased risk, by eliminating inspectors. Dems need more of this... they need to hire some GOP strategists!
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The Midnight Review
Bush 50,456,002 47.87% 271
Gore 50,999,897 48.38% 266
It's much easier to now just say "No" to everything. "It's wrong", "It's (insert fearbased political slur)".
Label anyone that speaks intelligently as an egghead elitist, invent more scary buzzword laden phrases, and you're good.
Could it have something to do with the 'liberal' MSM?
The plans are also not going to lower costs. When in American history have price controls been put into effect and shortages not appeared. The Secretary sets prices and content of insurance. That means price controls and he will lower prices because health costs are too high. That will drive doctors, hospitals and labs out of business. America is on the low side of doctors per 1000 population, and Obamacare will make the problem worse -- more like Canada where the number of doctors is even lower than America.
O and the D's can't seem to understand what the problem is. It's not that people don't have insurance, it's that they don't get health care. The "health care" angle of this problem doesn't seem to have occurred to O. By taking over insurance companies and forcing prices down and giving excellent health care to 30,000,000 additional people and those who don't work, he is engaged in wealth distribution while he is destroying the American health system [which, by the way is the best in the world].
Have you ever heard O state what the health care problem is? If he says it's that people can't get insurance, he's wrong. Lack of insurance NEVER hurt anyone. Lack of health care does. O is one-off on the problem understanding.
If the D's and O pass the H and/or S bill by a simple majority, then when the D's lose control of the House, the House will simply not fund it. O forgot one thing. The entitlement doesn't begin for 5 years. If it is neutered or repealed immediately, no entitled person is effected. He must remain in control for that period or his wealth redistribution plan is very likely to fall apart. A D health care bill requires the D's to remain in control of the government. Especially, if the D's jam an HC bill down the throats of America, the R's will use similar tactics to neuter it, repeal it, or destroy it. The way Nancy and Harry are managing this issue is disgusting. They will be remembered in the history books as the two most corrupt simultaneous leaders of our legislative bodies in history.
VOTE NO
IF IT PASSES, DECLINE TO PARTICIPATE.
IF IT PASSES, ELECT LEGISLATORS COMMITTED TO REPEAL.
IF IT PASSES, CHALLENGE IT IN THE COURTS.
IF IT PASSES, PAY THE FINE, AND SEEK INSURANCE ONLY WHEN YOU GET SICK.
This is the most illogical, uneducated, ineffective health care bill imaginable. It should be destroyed.
If it passes, if you already have insurance, like lots of people do, nothing changes. Are you going to decline to participate in an insurance program that your company already offers you? That would be silly.
If passed, most people will like it.
If it passes, what can you challenge in court?
If it passes, luckily, you will be able to seek insurance when you get sick, because right now, you can't get insurance if you don't have it, and are sick. Nobody will cover you.
Not having insurance is a sign of ignorance, as if nothing will ever happen to you, and if it does, then you can just go out and get it. As I said above, right now, take away your insurance coverage, then get sick, and see if anyone will sell you a policy. If they would sell you a policy, the premiums are going to be so high, most people won't be able to afford it. That is, if you can find someone to cover you, which won't happen.
Obama care undermines lower costs by further empowering insurance companies and regulating them, thus driving their expenses up and the prices to you and me.
I don't want a policy. I want health care. You are looking for a solution in the wrong room.
You people REALLY need to turn off Fox and hate talk radio because you have NO idea what is going on in the real world. It's really very, very sad.
I might add that lack of insurance equals lack of health care in this country at this time. You are really, really, really uninformed and really, really stupid [deliberately ignorant.]
Your statement is a lie of omission, which is a step up from your usual outright lies. Kudos!
Randy
And if I only knew that I'd never have a house fire, I'd have let my homeowner's insurance lapse. And if I'd known that none of my apartment neighbors were going to be careless, and that I'd never get broken into, I'd saved all the money I ever spent on renter's insurance.
I could say - "what a waste" that was.
Instead, I say - "what terrific insurance that all was in case I had needed to file a claim. It brought me piece of mind, and it served its task. And it would have been there if I'd had the need. Overall, it was a wonderful decision to have that insurance, and because of that same insurance, other people have actually benefited from claims that were submitted and paid for partially with my insurance premiums. It's a fair trade!"
Or do you have some other excuse?
Here, let me help: The health insurance industry does not produce anything. They do not compete, they are a cartel. Like professional baseball, they are exempt from Federal antitrust enforcement.
Your supply and demand curves and widget theory are laughable, youngster.
~
Catastrophic health insurance would be for the unexpected. All other health would be paid out of health savings account -- lowering costs and making UNIVERSAL (that means everyone) coverage immediately possible. HSA overdrafts would be covered by the goverment, but would have to be repaid.
Current H and S bills are criminal except the government did it. If private person or lobbyist did what is in the bill they would go to jail. They are immoral.
VOTE NO.
Too funny. People who can hardly afford to pay their mortgage are expected by idiots like you to open a health savings account.
You really need to open your eyes to the real world. It's out there. Don't be frightened.
Working to give all you have to a doctor and a hospital: the America Dream Squared.
Randy
it has been over a year involving the republicans. over 100 of their ideas have bee addopted including buying across statlines by way of an exchange. which is pretty much the center piece now.
do we support the bribes to state legislators... uh yeah! if we dont like them we vote them out. what do we do if dont like the healthinsurance CEO using our premiums to buy a gold faucet for their private jet? if we were ever sick that means leaving the company for another will automatically mean that we have a pre-existing condition.
what price controls? if you dont want to participate in teh exchange, Don't! that goes for people and insurance companies.
you're saying that 30 million MORE customers will drive hospitals out of business and that we will need LESS doctors...huh?
we ration now. whoever has the most money will get the best care. here and anywhere in the world for any service period. the fact that our system is so messed up that we would have to give care to those that need it most instead of those that can afford it first should make you sad. we have the best healthcare system? by what measure... only by the fact that the rich and powerful can get whatever they want. other than that we are 37th in the world accord to the W.H.O.
health "care" is the problem? ok. are saying the silly children who are stupid enough to get lukemia should have exercised more? or women should have Mastectomies so they dont commit the sin of getting breast cancer later?
yup if the bill is made law the dems might suffer or they might get the benefit. just asking the R's to get out of the way. the R's can defund if they get control back. unlike the R's the Dems believe in democracy.
wealth distribution? I dont remember getting a say so when my wealth was used to kill 100K innocent iraqi men women and children. how about when my wealth was given the saudi princes, foreign companies and Dick cheneys oil buddies. I hated it! but you know what I did. I voted the republicans out of the house, the senate and the white house. I win! Scoreboard!
corrupt leaders... I dont even really need to respond to that one...way too easy
ok now that i have dismantled every argument you had. I'll await your apology for wasting everyones time.
Also, the Republican tax cuts of 2001 and 2003 were supposed to create jobs and juice up the economy. They couldn't have worked, though, or we wouldn't have wound up with the worst crisis since the 1930's and 6 million people out of work. The idea that giving money to rich folks creates jobs must be bogus. But giving money to poor folks lowers the homeless rate and lets people plan for the future instead of surviving day to day.
If you think this is nonsense, you should check out the countries least affected by the current monetary crisis. Yes, it's the same old crew, the Socialist countries of Denmark, Norway, Sweden, and Finland. They must be doing something right, right?
But if you get sick and can't pay then go bankrupt?
Is that your solution?
Is this what we call "compassionate conservatisim"?
Except for the poor who can't afford insurance and therefore don't have health care except for local emergency rooms ... where one can die and lay there for a day or two before even being noticed. Oh, and use of the emergency room does cost me something whether it's me or John Q. Public who uses it.
Socializing healthcare reform being ramrodded down the throats of the American citizenry, against their wishes, is what ultimately makes this controversial.
You do realize that those tax cuts increased our deficit by over a trillion dollars, right?
No one is ramrodding anything down ANYBODY's throat, you idiot. Grow up.
Here's a little secret for you leftys.....tax cuts increase revenue whereas tax increases lower government revenue. It's called having a robust economy because the growth of the economic and therefore tax base responds accordingly.
Another "fact" made up by PC. Why, if tax cuts increase revenue, why not just decrease the tax rate to 1%, giving us even more revenue. But wait! There's a number lower than 1%. How about 1/2%. We should get even more revenue.
But wait! There's a number even lower than that! How about 0%! If the government didn't tax, then it would have all the money it needed to support the military.
Maybe they do get it.....lowering taxes means more economic growth, means more jobs, means more taxpayers, means increased tax base, means increased government revenue??
Talk about a moving target argument! You are completely changing your argument now. Your argument that tax cuts increase revenues is sheer mathmatical nonsense. You you proudly posted it without even thinking about it.
Lowering taxes does *not* necessarily mean more economic growth. For example, when the tax rate was the highest, during the 60's, we enjoyed the greatest economic growth.
Now, let's see....hmmmmm. Now didn't JFK do something to bring the economy around.....hmmmm. Oh, yea, he LOWERED tax rates..... What do ya thing of that?
I think that you are still avoiding answering the stupidity of your own argument. JFK is not an economists. The 60's *did* have the highest marginal tax rate. It did have the greatest economic growth.
If you and JFK are right, then why not cut the rate to 0%? Your argument is patently absurd, not supported by history, or by economic theory.
yet ANOTHER missinformed talking point from beck-hannity-limbaugh.
Yup JFK wanted to lower the top marginal tax rate...BUT he wanted to close loopholes for the the wealthy and for corporations. This was a compromise that would have resulted in HIGHER tax receipts for the federal gvt. thats why the wealthy OPPOSED!!!! the proposal.
During recessions, the government will occasionally offer a tax cut as an economic stimulus. In rough terms, a tax cut of one trillion dollars over ten years will "give back" an amount equal to about one percent of consumer spending annually over that period.
The first question about tax cuts is, exactly how do they stimulate the economy? This is not a stupid question! Remember, if the government gives us a tax cut they'll still have to make up the budget shortfall somehow, chiefly by selling more bonds to American citizens (who happen to be the same people getting the tax cut) or foreigners (who will raise the money by selling us more of their goods and services, or buying less of ours). In other words, government spending will keep sucking money out of the private sector, only the payment method will be different.
Yet most economists seem to agree that tax cuts really do provide a stimulus. The real reason may be that they provide flexibility: people who want to consume more can use their tax cut for that purpose; people who want to save more can use theirs to buy up the new government bonds. This is the perfect scenario during a recession, when prior over-investment has resulted in bloated inventory levels and poor private investment opportunities.
(A less rosy way to put it: tax cuts are really a sneaky way to increase consumers' credit lines. If you spend your tax cut you are in fact spending borrowed money, lent to you by the people who bought the bonds. You'll pay the lenders back later, with interest, in the form of future taxes.)
Who Should Benefit?
The next interesting question about tax cuts is who should get them. Here is a summary of IRS data for 2001 showing who pays what:
This group... Pays about...
The richest 5% 53% ($470 Billion) of the total income tax revenue
The next 20% 30% ($260 Billion)
The next 25% 13% ($120 Billion)
The bottom 50% 4% ($35 Billion)
(Note: this is for income tax only. See the definition of payroll tax.)
The thing to notice is how much of the revenue comes from the upper brackets. That's the most important fact in the world (!) because it's the key to how both political parties approach fiscal policy. Conservatives argue that the bulk of a tax cut should go to the wealthy since they carry such a disproportionate amount of the burden; besides, they're more likely to invest their tax cut instead of spending it, and investment is where economic growth comes from. Liberals counter that during a recession you need more consumption, not investment; and you can afford to give significant benefits to practically everybody just by jacking up the tax rate on the richest five percent.
http://www.moneychimp.com/articles/econ/tax_cuts.htm
They are best able to pay, and it hurts them the least to pay - that's why it's not disproportionate for them to pay that much!
Please remind Dick "Reagan proved deficits don't matter" Cheney.
Oh, and here's the facts.
I know you right-wingers think that facts are inconvenient things, but perhaps you should start to rely on one every now and then.
~
You posted absolute nonsense in your post above, too. Decreasing revenues while increasing spending [two very, very expensive military actions] equals a very large deficit. Bush entered the White House with a surplus . . . he left with a GINORMOUS deficit. Show me the proof that these tax cuts created a "robust economy." Have you looked around? Tell me why my 401K started going south in March of 2008 and continued to do so until March of 2009 when it started turning around?
Keep posting your phony conservative talking points. They don't make you a conservative, just a parrot of Fox/hate talk radio.
Well, then let's just lower the tax rate to 0% and watch the revenue roll in.
There are many angles here (such as the fact that half the opposition to the bill comes from the left), but I'll go ahead and take the blunt one. (I don't speak for all liberals here.)
Since the American citizenry doesn't even realize that Japan gets the same health care we do at 1/3 the price, I don't give the slightest crap what they want. They don't know anything about the subject and are too stupid to opine on it. They can eat what we spoonfeed them, and they'll like it.
If this country is too stupid to simply copy what everyone else has already done, then it's too stupid to live in. Back in the day, America was an innovative leader. Now it can't even copy the obvious.
My oh my, aren't we unhappy with Americans. But it is nice that the lefty elite out there sure knows what's good for us!
Intersesting comments about Japan and I googled an article on it.
Here are some quotes from the article, they do some things better but even the title of the article introduces some basic flaws in the system.
and....
but I will give this...
So in the meantime, let's not socialize medicine here but make certain those poor, poor unwashed nare-do-wells you speak of, are still allowed to find a way to pay for health care without taking the country further into the abyss of socialism. Hey what about an American idea of personal liberty, freedom and responsiblity and letting capitialism do the heavy lifting to bring costs down. Some of that might actually include some of the good ideas from our friends in Japan!
Yes, very interesting for how wildly bad that article is:
link
Harden offers a bewildering array of statistics on spending and cost. On balance, the sheer volume of these statistics only makes it harder to get clear on how much the Japanese spend. And he sometimes offers puzzling claims. Like this:
HARDEN: One of the great strengths of Japan's health-care system—the ability to see the doctor of one's choice and be seen quickly—has become one of the greatest curses for controlling health-care quality and costs, experts here agree.
Japan spends 35 percent what we spend. But in this paragraph, Harden discusses just one of the system’s “greatest curses for controlling health-care costs!†By the way: Regarding “the ability to be seen quickly,†Harden had already written this:
HARDEN: To keep costs down, Japan has made tradeoffs in other areas—sometimes to the detriment of patients. Some are merely irritating, such as routine hour-long waits before doctor appointments. But others involve worrisome questions about quality control and gaps in treatment for urgent care.
In Harden’s report, the ability to see your doctor quickly is one of the curses for Japanese cost control. And not only that! Routine hour-long waits before appointments is one of the trade-offs the Japanese have made in order to keep costs low!
You might want to check the UN study that shows the US is ranked 17th in the world in health care--yet we spend over *double* what other nations spend.
Anther words, you have no response to the fact that the US spends much more than other industrial countries on health care, and has worse outcomes. That is, no response besides a bunch of words like "socialized" and "government run" that you think make up an argument.
Insurance payments are too high, and there is no competitive market to bring them down. There's also evidence insurers are acting as profiteers, and routinely seek to deny the coverage their policy holders have been paying for.
When will a conservative ever cop to the idea that insurers have screwed the pooch and richly deserve to have government solutions "shoved down their throats?" That's not all they'd have shoved down their throats, if I had my way. Oh I forgot, you're paid or otherwise induced to shill for the insurers on sites such as this.
Single-payer is a conservative position, if you take conservative to mean doing something old and boring that's been proven to work over and over and over again.
When you quibble about petty, minor crap in other countries' health care, keep in mind that theirs is half price. When you compare health care across nations, some things are better and some things are worse, and it's all pretty much a wash. Only the money is not a wash. The United States alone is cataclysmically terrible in health care costs and we get nothing for it.
"what about letting capitialism do the heavy lifting to bring costs down" -- after decades of epic fail it's time to try something else. This isn't even the least bit controversial. Obama is proposing a grotesquely neutered version of what is proven to work.
Keep your feelings and labels in your pocket. The naked facts are kicking you up and down the room.
I agree with the first part of your statement. Faux conservatives love to point out flaws in other systems to paint them as inferior.
However, I think we do have some pretty good studies that show the US on the whole receives far inferior health care. It's not just the UN study, for example. Studies look at things like infant mortality, access, etc.
Right now the 2% of Americans who are even acquainted with the cost difference are struggling with whether half price is outweighed by a slight upward nudge in wait times for elective procedures.
yeah! And those poor unwashed will be sure not to get YOU sick, either!!
Tell me again how this is "socializing" (nationalizing) health care, how it will COST taxpayers tax money, and hurt the business community. Please, and as Count Rugen said, "Be specific, this is for posterity".
YOu seem to be considered about the deficit in most threads. You are aware of the cost of the tax cuts to the deficit, correct? Looking back on their consequences, would you still take the tax cuts?
How is your health care changed by this bill?
I think it would be fun to start putting the media on the spot if they are held accountable for their double standards and are expected to answer for it.
I think it would be fun to start putting the media on the spot if they are held accountable for their double standards and are expected to answer for it.
How does it feel to have your paycheck funded by this type of destructive action taken against the European economy?
Just thinking out loud......
Sorros doesn't fund MMFA. That would make about the 3rd time in 1/2 hour you have posted something completely false. Is this how conservatives think--by just making knee jerk arguments with no basis in fact?
Right.
Do you have anything of substance to add? Didn't think so.
You apparently missed the point of this:
the presence of so many powerful American financial interests in one room discussing the euro will no doubt fuel the conspiracy theories currently swirling around
That's a critique of exactly the kind of "thinking" you're engaging in here on several levels.
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Try not to make it so easy next time.
You link to Breitbart and expect us to take you seriously? Breitbart is the guy who pushed the doctored tapes of ACORN as absolute truth. Maybe you could find another source for reliable video.
By the way, I can't view the video on my computer.
It's a LIE! It's NOT TRUE.
http://www.mediaresearch.org/realitycheck/2003/fax20030127.asp
So they covered it...lied about it and then it went through and HELPED businesses and more! Tax Cuts are Great. Now if those supposedly representing us would quit spending on pork and Ms. Nancy and her romper room folks would quit spending our monies and if Mr. My Staff did it and I didn't know about Rangel actually gave a crap...and didn't beg cheat and steal and have a double standard we might get somewhere.
The GOP's closest approximation of a truth teller in those days was, intriguingly in retrospect, Sen. Chuck Grassley. In the first round of tax cuts, Grassley, Banking and Finance chairman,
had talked Bush down to $1.3 trillion (from the original $1.6 trillion). Perhaps Grassley foresaw trouble in paying the piper in the post-Bush era.
Jerry Elsea
In the case of Obamacare; however, the reconciliation process would be inappropriate due to the fact that the healthcare bill is a policy initiative and not a budgetary item. Time for school folks. The Byrd is the wyrd.
The ONLY portions of the healthcare reform bill that are being dealt with by reconciliation ARE budgetary items.
You doofus.
If you don't even know this, WTF are you doing trying to educate us here????
Check Wikipedia for a good impartial article on a study of media bias.
This is a big deal to invoke this, especially when poll after poll indicates people are wary of the lefislation, and when so many promises have been made regarding the development of the legislation.
All that will fundamentally change, with this legislation, is that hyperbolic conservative hatred of government regulation will be exposed, and demonstrated as irrational. The majority of us here, whom you are presumably seeking to sway with your comment, think that would be a good thing.
This is not something that I take lightly, because frankly, it is not the governments business if I eat too much or too little, or if I smoke, or if I get the flu and need some medicine. They do not need to know if I have broken any bones, or have cancer of any type, or and STD. Fortunately, I remain fairly healthy with perhaps an elevated level of cholesteral. But even as a healthy adult, I do not want the government to have access to this information.
They will if they get involved in health care the way they are talking, and do not kid yourself that once in a little that they will go away.
I understand how you think that I am reacting excessively, because you do not think that the government will intrude as much as I indicate. However, let me ask a quick question: how do you react to the Patriot Act and its allowance of wire taps? If you react negatively to the government possibly listening on your conversations (though there is a small chance they actually will listen to your conversations) you, I'd argue, should be at least as concerned with the government keeping tabs of how many apples and Ho-Ho's you eat. This is because that information wields great power to an authority with the power to give or deny coverage, and to tax certain aspects of your life, whereas listening to a conversation with your sweetie gives them little power.
I'll make this simple for you. Health care reform is only going to affect approx. 3 million people. That's it. I wish it was more, but that's the estimated number.
As always, you'll be free to keep your overpriced, under-covered health insurance that subsidizes CEO salaries and HMO profits for insurance companies that repeatedly deny coverage that results in death all in the name of profit.
And, as with medicare/medicaid, the government will act ONLY in the collection of premiums and disbursements of funds to doctors/hospitals. That's it. No intrusion in you life.
You're so frightened of the government, it's actually scary.
Less than 10% of Americans.
So quityourbitchin about how it's going to devastate you.
Conservatives up until Bush got nowhere with trying to cut programs and govt spending, so they went the other way, namely popular tax cuts and increased spending (ie Defense) to force the govt to a point to where it has to cut programs.
This is why Republicans wail against the 500 bn in savings in Medicare by cutting fraud and abuse. They package it as taking money from seniors to put it into "Socialized" healthcare. Then falsely talk about how Medicare and Medicaid will go broke in 10 years because entitlements are too high.
Conservatives don't want efficient govt. They want a corporatacracy. Progressives need to go on the offensive regarding conservatives trying to "Starve the beast". I hope sites such as this begin the charge.
It now seems they have some momentum and are doing a decent job of defining the debate.
To the Dems credit, it is hard to be the party in power. Reps found that out 5ish years ago.
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Left Hook! The Blog
http://lefthooktheblog.blogspot.com/
Do YOU understand now?
Why would they use the same tactics that they denounced not very long ago?
Obama said you cannot govern with a 51 vote majority.
Was he lying then or is he lying now?
While the health care reform bill certainly affects the budget, it is not a budgetary piece of legislation per se. The controversy stems from using this process to pass a law that would overhaul an enterprise, not a government budget. Perhaps this is why reconciliation is receiving more attention now than it did in previous congresses.
I also wonder why he didn't search for similar coverage of the reconciliation process being used during the Bush 41 and Reagan years under Democratic congresses.
A Senate bill was approved by the senate, but it NEVER passed Congress. If it did, that is where reconciliation would be more appropriate and supported by more precedence.
(I promise I didn't see posts with similar arguments to mine before I posted the original, although I see them now; I am not trying to parrot anybody, but I thank you for your time in responding to my post.)
Politicians in general and Republicans in particular have increasingly turned to tax cuts to buy votes. Despite their current bluster, the Republican party is a scared and desperate organization, willing to say and do anything to remain relevant. We are all paying for their incompetent governance.