Noonan on New Orleans: "I hope the looters are shot"
In her September 1 OpinionJournal.com column, Wall Street Journal contributing editor Peggy Noonan commented on the devastation of Hurricane Katrina and advocated killing looters in New Orleans, writing: "I hope the looters are shot."
Noonan's September 1 column, titled "After the Storm," carried the subtitle, "Hurricane Katrina: The good, the bad, the let's-shoot-them-now." Noonan wrote:
As for the tragic piggism that is taking place on the streets of New Orleans, it is not unbelievable but it is unforgivable, and I hope the looters are shot. A hurricane cannot rob a great city of its spirit, but a vicious citizenry can. A bad time with Mother Nature can leave you digging out for a long time, but a bad turn in human behavior frays and tears all the ties that truly bind human being--trust, confidence, mutual regard, belief in the essential goodness of one's fellow citizens.
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grhino wrote:
"Noonan didn't say anything about killing or murder...she just said for them to be shot...nothing about them dying from the wounds..."
Any responsible NRA member will tell you that this is bovine byproduct. (And if there are any gun owners posting here, please feel free to correct me; I'm outside my area of expertise here.) I have never taken a gun safety class--I decided long ago that I'm too clumsy to ever own one--but the way I understand the rules, you never, ever take aim at a being unless you are okay with seeing him, her or it dead. Also, as I understand it, "trick shots" are left to a very select group of professionals; most police, and I would presume most military people, are trained to aim for the upper torso. And there really aren't any wounds in that general area that aren't life-threatening, even without the probability that the wounded person would land in dilute sewage.
Irene
Obviously the closest Ms Noonan has come to a crisis is when she accidentally left her ATM card at home and had to drive back. Trust me, any merchandise in those stores has already been written off to the insurance companies. I don't particularly approve of people trying to make $$$ off of tragic events, but anyone stuck in New Orleans at this point is highly unlikely to come out ahead financially.
This is just one more way to wag the finger at people whose harm to society or individuals is minimal. (Note: I do NOT include anyone partaking of the use of force to rob or mug people directly. THAT is despicable behavior)
dbarber,
Are you in some way excusing those that are looting TV sets, or computers or ATM machines? They are despicable and deserve prosecution or maybe, worse.....not talking about those taking food or water or even medicine.
Can't speak for dbarber, but I'll speculate he/she was addressing the subtext of Noonan's remarks, which, unfortunately for you, requires the ability to be nuanced. Actually Ms. Noonan is one of those "delicate sensibility" types prone to fainting spells at the slightest disturbance in her aristocratic culture.
Tommy, I'm not excusing them, but I'm also not going out of my way to condemn them. (Sorry if that is the same thing to you. It isn't to me.) I agree that there is a problem with an absolute lack of order. But the focus shouldnt be on property crimes. The focus needs to be on securing the streets, stopping all violent criminals, and getting EVERYONE out ASAP.
For most of these people, if they were in a place where they had adequate shelter and supplies, raiding the local convenience store, or Walmart, would be the last thing on their minds. I agree it is ignorant and counterproductive to view this as your golden opportunity to get a color TV, but I don't think punishment is a solution right now. It might give someone some personal satisfaction, but it isn't going to alleviate anyone's misery, or save anyone's life.
My husband and I were talking about that last night.
With dead bodies in houses, rescues from the tops of houses, bodies floating in water (and God only knows what is in that water), homes completely destroyed, businesses completely destroyed, 2 levees that are destroyed, no water, no electricity, a city flooded...
I would think that looters are the least of the city's concern.
I don't know what I would do if I lived in NO, but if my home was completely destroyed and I had lost everything, I might go into the local Wal-Mart for food for my kids. I would like to say I wouldn't do it but if I didn't have any other options, who knows.
Food is one thing, computers are quite another. Looting is just one of the problems, but it needs to be stopped before it mushrooms into more lawlessness.........the results of that could be even more disastrous.
I repeat, looting is the least of NO concerns.
There are dead bodies in houses that rescuers cannot get to.
The city is flooded because the levees need repaired.
A public health crisis has been declared.
From the news they are stating literally thousands could be dead.
You want to complain about some computers?
I will conceed that it is wrong but it is not nor should it be considered a top priority.
With all due respect, I think it's easy for you to say that because you're not there right now. One of my favorite authors once said that "civilization is two meals and twenty-four hours away from barbarism" -- and situations like this prove his point. I'm not necessarily condoning this behavior -- but people will quite often do very desperate things in order to get whatever pleasure they can right now if they have reason to doubt that they'll be alive tomorrow. History has shown time and time again that human beings are still animals like any other, despite their veneer of rationality -- put them in a situation in which their continued existence is precarious, and the "law of the jungle" will inevitably become the rule of the day to at least some extent.
Frankly, one of the reasons why I try hard not to condemn people on their behavior is because I can't say for certain how I would react if I were in the same situation. What the people in New Orleans are going through right now is the sort of thing that makes people do things they'd never have dreamed of before. I can't help but wonder how Noonan herself would respond if she were in that situation right now...she might find herself unpleasantly surprised, especially considering her apparent willingness to "shoot first and ask questions later." You know what the Native Americans used to say -- "before you judge a man, walk a mile in his moccasins." If it comes to that, Jesus said much the same thing.
That is the most eloquent way of putting it, and the most humane. In our consumeristic, grubbing society there is a decided lack of empathy or compassion (ie we're better than the rabble). There are many people who would count 'To Kill a Mockingbird' as one of their favorite films, but how many would take to heart Atticus Finch's advice to Scout, to walk around in someone else's shoes.
Great post above. Peggy Noonan, shame on you.
"civilization is two meals and twenty-four hours away from barbarism".....Typical fodder.
The truth is that there are far more examples of humanity emerging from this crisis...just like they did following the tsunamis and 9/11.
How we behave is ALWAYS a CHOICE.
Right, and media outlets have the choice to focus on various topics. They are jumping on the "Lawless Looters" storyline because it's sexy and fits the mainsteam view of poor people, ie they're poor because they are morally deficient. Maybe those few who have looted electronics have abandoned societies rules because society seems to have abandoned them? Yeah, I know bleeding heart liberal, pantywaist excuse the criminal attitude. The problem is, they were abandoned. They were abandoned when bush decided to take money from the levee repair to send LA national guardsmen and equipment to Iraq. Face it, Bush doesn't care about the poor in this country as his tepid, too late response shows.
Fatbob, Careful Fatbob...if you read some postings here they'll have you believe that Iraq had zero impact on the lack of help in N.O.
MOST O'REILLY MOMENT OF THE DAY
September 1, 2005 - O'Reilly interviews hurricane aftermath observer
Last night, Bill interviewed Kris Axtman, a reporter for the Christian Science Monitor, via live remote from a shelter in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. Ms. Axtman had toured the devastation in Mississippi the day before. She talked about entire homes that had been swept off their foundations and smashed into piles of lumber and personal belongings.
The story of devastation didn't seem to interest O'Reilly as much as finding some wrongdoing. Bill asked, "Was there any exploitation of the situation as there has been in New Orleans?"
Ms. Axtman explained there had been some looting and that the local police department in Pass Christian had lost 12 of their 19 police vehicles in the storm. She stated, "They were finding it difficult to help out in any way they could and get to people who needed help."
Ms. Axtman added, "In the meanwhile we did see people who were going into open stores ... stores that had been blown through, and gathering whatever they could whether it be sodas or chips. The Wal-Mart, right on the beach, had been blown entirely out and all the contents had been strewn out the back and people were coming with trucks and backing up to that lot and taking whatever they could from the Wal-Mart..."
This conversation occurred while scenes of the devastation were shown on the screen. The picture for this community was bleak -- homes destroyed, roads blocked, a small police department unable to help those in need. People scavenging for food and water.
Now if you were ever uncertain about whether or not Bill O'Reilly is a retarded person, this next comment should clinch it for ya.
O'Reilly interrupted, "The logical question is why weren't the police there at the Wal-Mart? This is different than New Orleans where there's still search and rescue going on. Southern Mississippi, they're still combing, but there's no flood waters or anything like that. Why wouldn't the police be there to stop people from taking all that merchandise? Did you find that out?"
Ms. Axtman was polite. She should have prefaced her statement with "Listen, you moron." But she simply pointed out what was painfully obvious:
"Because, like I said earlier, they lost about... some of the sheriff's departments lost 97% of their equipment in the storm. In fact, Pass Christian lost its entire police department. So they didn't really have access either..."
You see, Bill looks at the devastation that has hit the southern part of our nation. He sees our families and friends fighting for their lives. He sees them losing their homes and their jobs. He sees the hunger and thirst. But what really f-ng pi$$es him off is that some guy got a free television that had be blown out of a Wal-Mart at 165 miles an hour and landed on the pavement of a parking lot.
So today, Bill, we leave you with two things. First of all, that television don't work. Second, you're a moron.
Ash,
That was a good read-thanks, WorldasMaya
So today, Bill, we leave you with two things. First of all, that television don't work. Second, you're a moron. by ash -
***
Typical of O’Reilly. I think at this point he just likes to hear himself pontificate. He is not really interested in what anyone is saying. He will actually blatantly make up what the person is saying to back up what ever complaint he is trying to highlight that week.
It seems many are exploiting this tragedy to score some political or ideological point and I think it is sad. It seems even catastrophic tragedy no longer prompts us to leave ideology and politics at “the door” and come together as human beings.
It worked like a charm instead of the right wingers being upset about Bush's incompetence in protecting the decent citizens of NO, they are all fired up about the looting.
"The story of devastation didn't seem to interest O'Reilly as much as finding some wrongdoing. Bill asked, 'Was there any exploitation of the situation as there has been in New Orleans?'"
-----
The answer should have been, "Besides the exploitation from political blowhards like you, sir?" Katrina's winds were nothing compared to the violent emissions coming from the likes of O'Reilly, Hannity, Robertson, etc.
Good one.
>> So today, Bill, we leave you with two things. First of all, that television don't work. Second, you're a moron.
Damn straight, ash. You nailed it.
Woah, there, lest I take too much credit. I may have nailed a fitting column from the Sweet Jesus website, but I didn't write it (did have to alter the swear words, tho). Apologies to those who thought I did.
"I would think that looters are the least of the city's concern.
I don't know what I would do if I lived in NO, but if my home was completely destroyed and I had lost everything, I might go into the local Wal-Mart for food for my kids. I would like to say I wouldn't do it but if I didn't have any other options, who knows"....by Missy A
I tend to agree with you, I mean HOW can any of us scold someone in these CIRCUMSTANCES for taking food or OTHER necessities. I truly believe MOST of us would do the same thing.
At first I was a bit heated about the looting of TV's and OTHER non-necessities--BUT then I really THOUGHT about it--and while I can't condone it... Peggy Noonan's SOLUTION of shooting these people is just plain COLD-HEARTED. My ONLY concern is the looting of firearms. (There have been reports of sniper shootings) The rest....well, geez these people are going through something NONE of us can really imagine. So while I don't think it's right-- let them take the damn Flat Screen TV...this is hardly something for any of us-- safe, comfortable in air conditioning and fed to sit in JUDGMENT of others of right about now.
There but for the grace of God....
Have you seen the waist high water most are treading through with their rubbermaid boxes full of whatever they must have left?
If the city is as flooded as it looks, they could take a flat screen but they aren't going to get very far with it. I am sure many don't even have a home to take it to.
My heart breaks. If shooting these people is at the top of Noonan's list, she is the "piggish tradgedy".
My initial response to the looters was much like yours, but I am almost certain that the looters represent a small minority of the 'refugees' that have been left in NO; and in the scheme of things it's just not top priority now. The priority now is to get those people out of that diseased ridden city and to safety. I did note that some of the 'looters' I saw only food items, and things like pampers, and feminine hygiene products.
If I were stranded there with no other option for obtaining food and water, I would have to ‘get’ food and water for my family; and hope that someone like Noonan wasn’t around to shoot me. I think that God would forgive me for that.
"If I were stranded there with no other option for obtaining food and water, I would have to ‘get’ food and water for my family; and hope that someone like Noonan wasn’t around to shoot me. I think that God would forgive me for that."...by Lynn
Agreed...I'm quite CERTAIN we'd all do whatever it took to keep our families fed and alive. What is really scary about Peggy Noonan's declaration of "shooting ALL looters", is that it SHOWS absolutely NO compassion.
And I've NO doubt Lynn, I KNOW God would forgive us. :-)
To clarify, Noonan does not call people getting food or water for their families looters - only those stealing TV's, etc. Whether she was serious or not about shooting looters, who knows? I don't agree with it either, but she isn't talking about people trying to survive.
Just to be fair.
"To clarify, Noonan does not call people getting food or water for their families looters - only those stealing TV's, etc. Whether she was serious or not about shooting looters, who knows? I don't agree with it either, but she isn't talking about people trying to survive."...by tommy
You're absolutely right Tommy, I was just talking in "general" terms as far as Noonan's statement about shooting looters...my mistake not to CLARIFY that.
But since we're on the subject, I'm NOT in agreement with her as far as "shooting looters" stealing TV's etc. THAT just seems like a really radical and cold-blooded SOLUTION.
My concern, as I said in another post is the looting of FIREARMS. There has been sniper shooting reported... In that case, IF the police were FORCED to shoot a citizen shooting at OTHERS...that of course SHOULD be acceptable to everyone. At least I'd HOPE we'd ALL agree with that...
jeter2 wrote:
"The rest....well, geez these people are going through something NONE of us can really imagine. So while I don't think it's right-- let them take the damn Flat Screen TV...this is hardly something for any of us-- safe, comfortable in air conditioning and fed to sit in JUDGMENT of others of right about now.
There but for the grace of God...."
Thank you for expressing, eloquently, what I have been trying to find words for. Count me in complete agreement with this post.
Irene
The combined policies of the Bush administration, massive tax cuts for the wealthiest Americans plus hundreds of billions of dollars for a useless invasion of Iraq that diverted crucial resources from a far more SEVERE public welfare and safety concern in the vulnerability of New Orleans, is to obstruct and hamper a much needed federally driven cleanup effort. Conservative policies cannot deal with events that require much domestic social welfare spending such as natural disasters.
********************************88
This is ridiculous, to blame conservatism for the aftermath in New Orleans is so typical of some far left liberals - should have expected it. What, since you do nothing except hurl unwarranted criticism, would you do differently as it relates to your liberal politics to solve this crisis.
Tommy, take a look a the dailykos link a little farther down! Then give an opinion.
Tommy, take a look a the dailykos link a little farther down! Then give an opinion.
*************************************
My opinion doesn't change - of course, it looks now as if any efforts to under fund any water or flood control in NO was a bad move - duh? Don't be so naive to blame one person or administration with your 20/20 hindsight? Aren't many of you the same people who refused to blame Clinton for any of his inactivity leading up to 9/11? I didn't blame Clinton for 9/11 anymore than Bush for this disaster.
Stop with the politics, not only is it so unseemly but disrespectful to those suffering now.
tommy - Thursday September 1, 2005 04:48:48 PM EST
Stop with the politics, not only is it so unseemly but disrespectful to those suffering now.<<
This I agree with. Later, after the people are taken care of we can look at the consequences of many policies so we can be better prepared for the next Force 5 which is inevitable. Right now it is EXACTLY unseemly, at least thats how I see it. Tawdry and unseemly
solon,
I agree with you - there will be plenty of time to look at the policies or inaction that may have contributed to this disaster later. Now, it is irrelevant with the current crisis going on.
At least you are not like others here, I admire you for being a stand up guy on this.
Well, Tommy, you have yet to invalidate my claims. You just resort to emotional smear tactics to counter my evidence based claims. When you are willing to engage in a REAL debate, instead of acting like a juvenile, which is par for conservatives, come talk to me.
blueblood,
What claims? Your invective is just that, you offer no solutions only generalized smears - any idiot can do that, as you are evidence of.
Want a solution? Here: fully fund the Army Corps of Engineers. Do not pass massive tax cuts under the ideology of supply side economics at the expense of domestic safety and welfare concerns. All of this was avoidable, remember. It is clear that Clinton at least treated FEMA like it was an actual organization of some value.
The more you resort to puerile invective yourself Tommy, aka namecalling, the more you prove my point about conservative debating techniques.
Tommy, why don't you take responsibility? Actions have consequences...on that I'm sure we both can agree. Iraq war has consequences. 1.) death 2.) dismemberment 3.) money 4.) breeding ground for terrorism 5.) vital infrastructure shipped to Iraq. (human and physical assets)
Whether you care to take responsibility for what is unfolding before you in New Orleans is up to you. Unless, of course, you think that the state couldn't have benefitted from the 3,000 guardsmen who are in Iraq presently? They couldn't have benefitted from the equipment that went with them to Iraq? That they would simply have sat on their arses for several days before being deployed in New Orleans. not to mention the civil engineers that are in Iraq building what is to be the worlds largest embassy. They probably coudn't have been used either. Nor the money that was diverted (read the washington post today-or maybe it was yesterday) from New Orleans and, as was said to lesley stahl lastnight, diverted to the war in Iraq.
So, I guess if you think those resources (human and physical) would not have benefitted assistance efforts in Iraq...you're entitled to your opinion.
Iraq had consequences...read em' and weep. ******* Tommy writes: This is ridiculous, to blame conservatism for the aftermath in New Orleans is so typical of some far left liberals - should have expected it. What, since you do nothing except hurl unwarranted criticism, would you do differently as it relates to your liberal politics to solve this crisis.****
Un-elect Bush, for starters. At least his predecessor paid attention.
Was Bush on the golf course the day after Katrina hit?
I guess his apologists will say "at least he wasn't playing a fiddle".
Blueblood, to blame what is occurring in NO on politics and current policies is completely moronic. This could have occurred under any administration at any time. I do agree that Bush's speech(if it can even be called that) was horrible and he should have gone on air immediately without prepared remarks and acted like a leader. Still I cannot believe you are attempting to place blame on Bush for what is currently occurring in NO. You may as well blame him for the hurricane itself and while your at it blame him for the levees breaking or for that matter blame him for the generational poverty that put the citizens of NO more at risk in the first place. Unbelieveable. Not everything is political you jacka$$.
libby,
Absolutely right, to inject politics into this horrific tragedy is despicable.......will some of you do anything to blame Bush?, it is so obvious. While many of you clamor that it's his Iraq policy or that policy that you object to, and not him personally, is so shot down when attacks like these come from some of those on the left. For god's sake at least be honest and say what you really mean - You despise Bush and so wish him to fail that you will use or do whatever it takes to do that.....
How incredibly sad.
Well, now you have put words into my mouth, another typical conservative technique. Extrapolate the comments of one with whom you disagree and turn them into a personal attack to avoid having to debate the substance of the claims. Are you that afraid to debate?
blueblood,
I asked you for solutions to what you perceive as a conservative problem with disaster relief - you offer nothing. To go back and cherry pick projects that were not funded properly regarding flood control for NO is so petty, even for you. Are you that thick to think that this problem of a city under sea level surrounded by water began on election day 2000?
Now if you can't offer up anything substantive, then please play computer games or something with your time.
To go back ONE year and evaluate why the U.S. government chose not to fully fund the protection of a major U.S. city is petty? Wow. Simply amazing is your interpretation of that term.
You can cast my perspective aside with puerile insults and arrogant dismissal, but such behavior only casts a dark shadow on YOUR character, not mine. When did I ever call you names or make unfounded assumptions of your hobbies? Never.
blueblood,
To go back one year?????? Are you serious? Even if I accepted your assertion was anything but another attack on Bush, what possibly could have been done in one year to prevent this week's aftermath in NO?
Try going back 10 - 20 years, maybe then you will have a leg to stand on......after all is said and done.
Only this administration proposed drastic cuts in federal funding for the New Orleans district of the Army Corps of Engineers just a single year before this disaster struck. Are you so naive to think that budgets are not political documents themselves? Wake up, Mr. Felon.
"Only this administration PROPOSED drastic cuts in federal funding" I don't get personal often but you are a moron. So the proposed cuts caused the levee to break. Everything wrong is Bush's fault. What a brilliant and valid argument. I know the adminstration cut funding for the anti-looting help groups. If they hadn't a done that there wouldn't be any looting.
Well, thank you for proving my point about conservative debating techniques. Namecalling combined with ad hominem attacks repeated over and over again. How mature.
Bush did not cause the levees to break, I never said that he did. Why do you cherry pick my statements and convolute them?
Bush did not view the vulnerable levees of New Orleans as an issue of national security, but Iraq, a third world country 6000 miles away, was worth $200 billion+. When a government fails to understand the implications of its policies and funding priorities despite knowledge of their dangers, then they do bear responsibility when a PREVENTABLE disaster strikes. Case closed.
libby - Thursday September 1, 2005 04:57:54 PM EST
"Only this administration PROPOSED drastic cuts in federal funding" I don't get personal often but you are a moron<<
Did YOU just call another poster a moron for apparently knowing that money was diverted from levee maintenance and construction to Iraq? Your stupidity is truly monumental.
It appears that the money has been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay. Nobody locally is happy that the levees can't be finished, and we are doing everything we can to make the case that this is a security issue for us. -- Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, Louisiana; New Orleans Times-Picayune, June 8, 2004.
[link to www.globalsecurity.org]
A storm (Hurricane Betsy) surge of 10 feet caused New Orleans to suffer its worst flooding since the hurricane of 1947 and proved inadequacies in the levee protection system surrounding the area. The resulting levee improvements spared the city from similar flooding in 1969 when Hurricane Camille impacted the area.
When Bush is involved, it's political.
"The main reason for the aura of despondence in New Orleans is the fact that there are not sufficient resources from the federal government to take care of basic human needs." ===============================================
Doesn't the state and local government play a role too? It's not all federal. Just who do you think are helping these people right now? Many people from all over-Federal, state, local, civilians, charitable organizations and volunteers. Truthfully, NONE of this even matters at this time. Right now the important thing is these people get what they need. It will take everyone, just like the 9/11 attacks, just like the tsunami. I'm not going to play the blame game at this time. Politics at this time is wrong. To discuss issues such as the looting, the fund raising, the support, the people's stories-that is one thing. To start looking placing blame and making it political is just wrong.
The "aura of despondence" happens with EVERY disaster! Some have no hope while others grow stronger. It has always amazed me how strong people are and what they can overcome. It warms my heart hearing those kind of stories, but some people feel these types of situations gives them the right to act in uncivilized ways. One looter said it was "nobody's stuff". Another said "if it was wrong the cops would be there to stop them". Why are people now given a pass when it comes to their behavior? There's always an EXCUSE, but never accountability.
I don't think computer's being stolen is a crisis tommy, do you just want to see poor people get shot over a computer? Check out the t.v. and look at the destruction, this is an American tsunami.
[link to www.dailykos.com]
Shannon - Here's a list of why (IMHO) Pres. Bush does carry some responsibility for the aftermath of katrina
Ouch.
It will be rather ironic is Bush wants to sweep in to the rescue after a mess he partially helped create.
Once again, Bush's policies show they are in the best interest of the nation. (Barf).
I guess those tax cuts for the wealthy were far more important then an adequate budget for the Army Corp of Engineers.
That was some damning reading.
There is no need to be rude and insulting and as for growing up, I am 47 years old so I grew up long ago. I don't have a Queen here at MMFA or any place else. What ever your issues are with Sue leave me out of it. Furhtermore I get my news from various sources and yes I listen to AA becuase I enjoy it, and Randi is as partisan as she can be; but at least she doesn't pretend to be anything else.
Lynn,
If I was rude, I apologize......you are right, it was not called for. I just get a little upset when politics is thrown into every single thing that happens in this country. That is part of the problem and why we have such trouble getting anything done anymore - everybody takes sides, digs in their heels and then slams anyone who disagrees. I may have been guilty of it where you are concerned, and I admit that.
I understand how you feel and I agree we need to concentrate on with the rescue efforts for now.
"I guess those tax cuts for the wealthy were far more important then an adequate budget for the Army Corp of Engineers."
by Missy A.
You know, protecting his base, the have's and have more's
Looting is a serious problem! We've had a childrens hospital looted. We've had a hospital supply turck held up. We've had a policeman shot. We've had a helicopter shot at. Taking food to sustain is one thing-you need it. Taking Designer jeans, and tennis shoes, and jewerly is something else! They are not just looting stores, they are looting people's homes. Why do you think many don't want to leave their homes? they know before they are allowed back to their house, looters will take it. Meanwhile the police are having to tend to the crime these people are causing rather than helping others. This is by far the worse hurricane trajedy we've seen, and I hope we never see another. But this is NOT the first time looting has taken place. It happens with EVERY civil unrest! "WARNING! Looters will be shot!" in advance could make for a good deterrent. I even heard on the radio the Insurance Commissioner from Mississippi suggested on NPR to shoot looters.
You forget that Mississippi and Lousiana are two states with low populations and thus a small tax base, not to mention that there are very few taxes in those states anyways. These two states also happen to be some of the poorest nation (Mississippi is #1). They do not have the resources for a catastrophe on this scale. Only the U.S. government can alleviate the suffering of these victims.
Sure, there is despondence in every crisis, but that was not my point. The level of despondence was exacerbated by the incompetence of the federal relief effort.
This is a disaster of extreme magnitude, unlike any we have seen - even in some cases worse than 9/11 due to the scope and size of the people directly involved. A major American city and vital port is nearly destroyed, for all intents and purposes it is. There are always better and more efficient ways to attack this crisis and help - we have to believe that all our officials involved are doing the best they can.
The best we can do is contribute whatever money we are able...to the Red Cross, Salvation Army or other agency. There is little else we can actually do - except maybe limit our gas consumption to it's absolute necessity.
Godspeed to all involved.
Blueblood, I completely understand LA & MS are very poor states. In NO WAY does that excuse their behavior! Heck, one guy in MS shot his sister in the head over a bag of ice! They are stealing from HOSPITALS! Childrens' health were being compromised because of thugs on a power trip! How can people complain about supplies not getting there and enough isn't being done to help when groups of people are treating the French Quarter like Mogodishu? Until they stablize the looters for the safety of the rescuers and others, they will not be able to help at full capacity.
How can people complain about supplies not getting there and enough isn't being done to help when groups of people are treating the French Quarter like Mogodishu? Until they stablize the looters for the safety of the rescuers and others, they will not be able to help at full capacity.
by shannon xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Proves my point clearly, the French Quarter like Mogodishu, going racial shannon, and not even realizing it?
Proves my point clearly, the French Quarter like Mogodishu, going racial shannon, and not even realizing it?
by lumination - =========================================
So saying it looks like a third world country that's run by a gang of thugs is "racist'? You have issues!
So saying it looks like a third world country that's run by a gang of thugs is "racist'? You have issues!
by shannon xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
What color are most of the inhabitants in third world countries and New Orleans? Quit talking in code like noonan and just say it, "you want to shoot black looters".
What color are most of the inhabitants in third world countries and New Orleans? Quit talking in code like noonan and just say it, "you want to shoot black looters".
by lumination =================================================
Why are YOU focused on color of skin rather than actions of individual? So we can't make any statements of crime, corruption and unlawful acts here or in a third world country because they may be deemed "racist"? Like I said before, sounds to me like someone has issues! Also if you recall I say looters should be shot in every occurance of civil unrest, this or any other one. They just should be warned first!
Authorities must attempt to rescue and relocate thousands of people, to care for the injured and disabled, to fight the outbreak of disease, and to attempt, if possible, to pump the sea out of what was only a few days ago a thriving city. If police officers are authorized to shoot looters, this intelligence will spread quickly among the criminal population. The free-for-all will come to an abrupt end. Only then will the fire, police, sanitation, National Guard and private groups be able to do the basics for our suffering compatriots. [from "Shoot looters" by Mona Charen]
The above is from Charen's op-ed column and makes perfect sense. I know many of you were up in arms over Noonan saying essentially the same thing, but other than getting all flustered and enraged none of you offered an alternative. So I guess you're all just willing to let the looting continue unabated and are comfortable with armed gangs roaming the streets and terrorizing innocent people? Then of course you libbies play the race card, what a bunch of sanctimonious B.S. God forbid anyone point out these are people doing bad things--color has nothing to do with it!!!
Here's Mona Charen's column: [link to www.townhall.com]
A.) read my post before you lump us all together as 'libbies'
B.) If one is stealing non essentials I say spend no time on them...except to lock them to a fence or some such.
C.) If I had a kid and they needed food...I'll pay later thank y ou. Fact is if FEMA or whoever the heck "should" be accountable did their job there would be very little rioting. If the guardsmen who are in Iraq were in their state...that'd help don't you think?
D.) If you do not think race or poverty has something to do with the nature of things in N.O. your incredibly naive. Do you have any minority friends? preferably african-american friends? why don't you ask them...and listen.
When you say "we", does this mean that you live in one of the areas that were hit by Katrina? (I'm asking out of curiosity rather than sarcasm, since there's no information to indicate where people live unless they make it apparent in their user name). I'd be interested to know your thoughts on my post further up regarding the looting, particularly since it appears that I posted it prior to yours. I can't entirely condone the looting, mind you -- but I also know that in the wake of natural disasters such as this, it can be very difficult to think or act rationally and even more so when your entire existence is on the line. I've lived in NYC for the past ten years, and I remember that I walked around in a sort of half-stupified haze for at least a month after 9-11 -- but I imagine that what these people are facing is by far worse.
Bluestocking: When I said "we" I was referring to all Americans. Although we maynot be in the direct hit we (Americans) feel it, just not as devistatingly as the people down there. Fortunately, I do not live down there, but I've driven that I-10 more than I care to remember.
When I heard about the Children's Hospital being taken over I could barely breathe. In my field of nursing I work with infants daily. (Well, up until 2 weeks ago) Our unit is right next to the Pedi unit. The thought of someone stealing from those sick kids makes me sick to my stomach. For what? DRUGS??? I don't expect everyone to act rational in a time of crisis, but actions like looting make it so hard on everyone else. It's not the TV, it's the environment they create. People are devistated enough by what they've been through , but to have someone steal what was left just makes it that much harder. People who want to help are not able to at full capacity because of these thugs. Most aren't panicing, they see a free ride at the moment. This isn't he first time looting has happened, heck even after sports championships idiots are looting. I have no sympathy for these types of people, I sympathize with their victims.
I'd like to apologize for my earlier comment, which was quickly deleted. It's not right to satirize the liberal response to looting by pointing out that many of those above seem to be condoning activities that lead to things like gunmen targeting a medical convoy. In that earlier comment, I said that those 'gunmen' were in fact Democratic voters looking for drugs. I realize now that that's probably wrong.
The Lonewacko Blog - Thursday September 1, 2005 05:46:34 PM EST
Good for you, it was a contemptable statement, your unqualified appology shows class.
Class would have been not making the statement in the first place.
Bigot. You wouldn't advocate shooting white people.
fightingliberalism
Go back to whatever hole you just crawled out of.
fightingliberalism
Go back to whatever hole you just crawled out of.
by Lynn -
*************************
Nice argument Lynn, I thought you were better than that. His/her opinion is as valid, if not more, than anyone else's here. I know the dissention hurts.
Some posters here do esactly what they accuse others of doing? - Pointed personal attacks and smear and name calling.......sadly, it will continue until the partisan blinders come off and people practice a little intellectual honesty. Blame Bush, hate Bush, Repugs are all bad......yada, yada.
I have strong opinions, I admit that and I use sarcasm and sometimes say uncalled for things like anyone else. But I try and look at situations fair and without political partisanship, otherwise you become just another pablem fed idealogue.
Is that an insult disguised as bad spelling? Or a totally different word I never heard of?
Oh, I'm guessing about the time you stop engaging in subterfuge and address the issue at hand.
Too bad. You can't.
So typical of the con priority. People are starving, dying of thirst, or just dying. The National Guard can't help because they're in Iraq. And the conservatives want to shoot people for stealing TVs. One has to wonder how many of the cons would be calling for the death penalty for theft if the looters were blonde and white.
Funny you should mention blonde and white..take a look at how the "librul" media is describing the looter...it all depends on the color of your skin. [link to www.salon.com]
You will have to do a day pass to read the article, but it is worth it.
"So typical of the con priority. People are starving, dying of thirst, or just dying. The National Guard can't help because they're in Iraq. And the conservatives want to shoot people for stealing TVs. One has to wonder how many of the cons would be calling for the death penalty for theft if the looters were blonde and white."--by radiobill ==========================================
Wasn't 10,000 Nat'l Guard troops deployed down there? I also heard active duty troops were as well although I can't recall the specific number off hand. The Air Force is helping with getting the airport running.
It's NOT just tv's, It's the hostile environment they are creating. I makes it far more difficult to get to the people who need help if trucks are being held up, police are being shot, and the mayor himself cannot even go out for fear of his life.Also, why would you make this a race thing? It has nothing to do with it.
Over 1/3 of the Louisiana and Mississippi National Guard is overseas at the moment. These states have been bringing National Guard members from far away to assist. Only problem is, these guard members are not familiar with the area or with the nature of the disaster. Hard to think that guard members from Arizona would be accustomed to dealing with an entire city underwater.
Okay, so 1/3 of the National Guard from the area is oversess. That still leaves 2/3. Soldiers are trained to get the job done. You can be a cop in Ohio just as much as you can in Mississippi. You can assist hurt people just like in Montana. You can help carry supplies in AL just like you can in NY. Not all of them will be dealing with the "water issue". But if you are concerned with people in AZ having to take care of it, We can replace them with people from TX, FL, GA, SC, NC, VA, DE,... Shall I go on?
The Air Force is taking care of the airport, and active duty military are also being deployed to there. We also haev airlifts taking place. Have faith, our military is very capable.
Sure shannon. ALthough, New York City was a mess until Guiliani (sp) dramatically increased the size of the police department. (since you mentioned police). There is a 'critical mass' within the military and within police enforcement that when not met simply does not result in adequate coverage. I am sure the next few days will see a vast convergence of all kinds of aid going to N.O. and that everyone will weather this storm. I'd not argue that. What I am suggesting is that Iraq diverts resources whether we like it or not our actions have consequences. Maybe some think they were worth it-some don't (i'm not arguing that here)..but, there were consequences and stretching our active duty and reserve resources was one of those consequences.
Shannon writes: Okay, so 1/3 of the National Guard from the area is oversess. That still leaves 2/3. Soldiers are trained to get the job done.
worldasmaya: I see what you're saying and yes, actions do have consequences. But if was any other war, the consequnces would be the same. "blueblood" was showing a negative attitude and claiming it's not the same as if the locals were there. I was responding to his comment showing everywhere people are taking an active role. We can debate later over politics and whether they relate or not. I would like to try to stay on the positive. A great number of people are giving it their all to help and I find it disrepectful to play politics at this time. I don't know if the outcome could've been better or not at this time. I'm sure they'll be enough stories later that we can examine. I don't think info coming out at this time is accurate. Just look at Roberts Kennedy Jr's article on Monday!
"And the conservatives want to shoot people for stealing TVs. One has to wonder how many of the cons would be calling for the death penalty for theft if the looters were blonde and white."...by radiobill
Huh Billy, I've HEARD just ONE Conservative--Peggy Noonan--make THAT suggestion (shooting looters)...yet YOU announce a BLANKET INDICTMENT about ALL Conservatives wanting to shoot people...well Billy, I'm a Conservative and I don't happen to agree with Ms. Noonan. And EVEN if 100 Conservatives AGREED with Ms. Noonan--I, and MANY others don't. Would YOU like it IF I said ALL Liberals THINK like Ward Churchill? Hell, maybe YOU would...
=================
Maybe YOU should read my post:
by jeter2 - Thursday September 1, 2005 03:34:22 PM EST -
=================
I try very hard NOT to lump ALL Liberals into ONE category...cause IF I judged them ALL by YOU....well it wouldn't be nice.
Maybe all the heartless bitches out there should be shot too. Why is Noonan blaming the thousands of victims? What has our government been doing for emergency preparedness since 9/11???!!! Seems to me that this very scenario has been predicted since the construction of the levees back in the early 1900's. Seems to me that our government should have an emergency plan in place that can prepare for the evacuation of an entire city and be capable of handeling security, housing, food, and everything necessary for a large population to be temporally taken care of. It seems to me that our government has failed miserably in its responsibility to coordinate an emergency relief effort here at home. My heart goes out to those suffering from this disaster. We should all pull together to get through this and then make damn sure that it doesn't go down like this again when the next disaster strikes. Looting is the least of our problems.
Oh, and we should find out what this is about:
"REPORTER: One project, for instance, is the one where people felt they needed $60 million in the current `06 fiscal year, and they were given $10 million. Those types of projects. And a lot --
MCCLELLAN: Which project is this?
REPORTER: Southeast Louisiana Flood Control.
MCCLELLAN: Flood control has been a priority of this administration from day one."
[link to www.dailykos.com]
Sloshing through the putrid water, a family pushes a stolen Rubbermaid bin containing their loot: Pepsi, Fritos, Twinkies and some dry shoes and clothes - for when they find a dry spot.
Suddenly, the constant sound of helicopters subsides. Then, at an unusually low altitude, a large white, silver and pale blue jumbo jet appears, banks to the left and circles slowly.
The family waves excitedly, hoping those on the plane will see them and send help.
George and Laura smile and wave back.
Noonan on New Orleans: "I hope the looters are shot"
Translation: "I hope the minorities are shot". I't a joke to think this isn't about race. Just about every person plucked off a roof down there is black.
Translation: "I hope the minorities are shot". I't a joke to think this isn't about race. Just about every person plucked off a roof down there is black....by lumination -
*************************************
Oh, not only is politics being dragged into this but now race! Amazing, but then all conservatives are just really racists, is that it? lumination, you definitely need a new screen name......may I suggest "clueless" or "inflammatory"?
Oh, not only is politics being dragged into this but now race! Amazing, but then all conservatives are just really racists, is that it? lumination, you definitely need a new screen name......may I suggest "clueless" or "inflammatory"?
by tommy xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Read one of your fellow righties comments (shannon) about the comparison of the French Quarter to Mogadishu.
lumination,
Get over it, I am not going to sink to your level of race baiting. It is beneath me and contemptible of you.
Get over it, I am not going to sink to your level of race baiting. It is beneath me and contemptible of you.
by tommy
It's not race baiting (repug talking point), it's reality which you are not equipped to deal with. Keep up the good job of cheerleading for your failure of a president.
Come on (tommy and lumination) ...fact is it was Peggy Noonan who opened the dialogue. She's conservative.
Is it fair to lump all with conservative leanings with her...no!
Let's just say that she is a twit and move on.
I can't say I totally disagree with Noonan. I can understand people taking food stuff-necessities. e.g. If I had a kid and they needed water & I saw it sitting on a shelf...they'd get that water. I'd pay for the damage later. Police officers have been turning away as people get food and water off of the shelves. I think that is GREAT!
However, I think those who have enough energy to steal a buggy filled with shoes (which I saw) or someone, I kid you not, was running down the street with a huge T.V. in his hands. It was like that movie line "look, free t.v.s..." Where's he going with that? where will he plug that in?
I say--for those types...they are thieves and they prey on this tragedy; I say handcuff them to a pole or a fence and get to them later. If the waters rise...oh well. Or perhaps a little 'social' justice...someone steals those items (non essentials) and people beat them to a pulp. Trash.
speaking of race.....anyone see the juxtaposition of the two pictures from the AP yesterday?.... according to the captions, in one, a young black woman was "looting" bread and soda pop, but in the other the young white couple was "finding" food. so the only difference between looting and finding is....race! surprise! surprise! ;-)
(sorry i couldn't find the link...)
You are talking about this over at daily kos...
[link to www.dailykos.com]
Two AP photos showing different people doing the same thing. One was labeled as a looter the other was labeled at "finding food". Guess which one was black.
You are talking about this over at daily kos...
[link to www.dailykos.com]
Two AP photos showing different people doing the same thing. One was labeled as a looter the other was labeled at "finding food". Guess which one was black.
by jlegato - Friday September 2, 2005 02:03:54 PM EST
8888888888888888888888
I have seen reasonable explanations about the captioning. It is not as sinister as some have made it out to be.
It was two different suppliers of news photos.
The one photographer saw the people looting.
The other photographer only saw people gathering up the supplies, which the photographer believed had floated out of a store flooded with 6 feet of water. As such, the editor didn't think they should caption it "looting".
"As such, the editor didn't think they should caption it "looting"."
Agreed.
Check out this video from MSNBC: [link to video.msn.com]
You have people who have had no food, no water and no medication for FOUR days. Except for what they hve been able to "loot". Are they all really "looters" ? Bush says what he is planning to do. People are dying today at the Superdome.
Better questions: Where has Bush for four days? Why is the media ignoring the issues of class and race in the federal response to these desperate people?
Better questions: Where has Bush for four days? Why is the media ignoring the issues of class and race in the federal response to these desperate people?
*********************************
To imply that somehow the federal goverment is ignoring or slow in responding to the crisis because the sufferers are poor, black people is one of the most racist comments I can imagine. To even suggest this is utterly unthinkable, you should be ashamed of yourself. If I believed that the country I was living in was that horrible, I would move out tonight!
Tommy writes: ...ignoring or slow in responding to the crisis because the sufferers are poor, black people is one of the most racist comments I can imagine. To even suggest this is utterly unthinkable, you should be ashamed of yourself. If I believed that the country I was living in was that horrible, I would move out tonight! Good by Tommy. WorldasMaya.
PS; Do you really think that white wealthy upper class who have connections to the political structure would sit and wait as long?? if they were in the same situation??? Give me a break. Racism exist and those who do not acknowledge it are doomed to continue it. We live in the greatest country on earth--by far (although there is canada-lol). But, we are not without our human-ness which includes our frailties and our biases.
The citzens of New Orleans have been failed by the government on so many levels it is ridiculous. The federal gov't appropriated monies for its favorite tax break and invasions by denying money to the Army Corp of Engineers to fix the levies. I am surprised at everyone's amazement at the anarchy this is the the failure of the social contact that the present administration has been actively courting. Additionally, they were failed by the local, state, and federal gov't in the fact better plans were not in place given the destruction sure to occur and this far after 9-11 (Where are all those first responses initatives and so, we don't need FEMA?.) I and someone on one of the many post have explained the difference between civilization and anarchy is very thin. The politicians knew this actively ignored it and now the people of New Orleans will make their own way. Truth, it will be harsh and hideous I dread the medieval horrors we will hear of. In the end I believe martial law and a near 3rd world civl war enviroment to restore order. The national guard, sorry the military, as the guard is in Iraq will most likely be require to fire on US citzen on US soil. It will be a proud moment for us all. There is little honor in shooting the hungery, thristy, and diseased while they scrounge food(and that is who some of them will be). I only hope Noonan gets her rocks off. Noonan, what a turd.
Can everyone just stop implying that Noonan said that people who were stealing food or water should be shot! She did not say or even imply this, she even sticks up for them, as she should.
Her "shoot them" comment may be stupid, but be fair and keep in context if you argue it.......Jeez!
Does anyone who matters really give a damn what this nitwit Reagan-worshipper says anyway?
And Tommy ... whine all you want. Facts have been presented here in black and white. If the Bush Administration underfunded the Corps of Engineers, and if the money sent down the toilet in Iraq could have been spent to finish the levees, then yes, they should be called on the carpet and held accountable.
Deal with it.
Once again, I ask again and you sportsguydave - Do you or do you not believe the problem inherent in NO began on election day 2000? Because if you say it did, then blame Bush. If you say it did not, then deal with it and stop your whining.
They're in Iraq instead of here, Tommy. You deal with it.
Tommy:
In 1995 there was a serious flood in NO, six people died and Clinton started a massive levee building project after a study showed how woeful the current system was. Sorry I don't have a link to the article I read today about this (any help with that link will be appreciated) Your buddy bush cut the funding for that project in every one of his budgets. As has been noted several times on this thread the Army corp of engineers has publicly stated what a bad idea that was, and as it turns out, it's going to cost our country way more to fix this problem now then to have avoided it in the past. This is bushes fault and problem, despite your spinning. It's also fair to wonder what other disaster is waiting around the next bend that could have been avoided if we weren't spending 1.5 billion dollars a week creating a flower of democracy in Iraq.
Regarding Noonan's comment about shooting looters, not all neoconazis think looters are bad, when Rummy was confronted by video of looters in the early stages of that bush disaster didn't he say something to the effect that it was just the same video of an old lady and a vase being shown over and over, and that "democracy is messy"?
Tommy--"Do you or do you not believe the problem inherent in NO began on election day 2000?"
No it certainly didn't begin in 2000. It began in 1900 when the levees were built. However, it most certainly could have been SOLVED beginning in 2000 as report after report stated the fact that the levees needed repair and funding and what did this administration choose to spend their money on? They spent it in Iraq, they spent it on unproved missile defense, and they spent it in getting THEIR rich friends richer on OUR backs!!!!
well... i would echo the sentiments of someone above. there are consequences for all the decisions that folks have been debating for a few years now. i think the links to all the articles regarding how the funding for NO was diverted are completely relevant, and the severity of what is going on is a fairly direct result. these lessons were supposed to have been learned. youdon't go into a war of choice. resources are needed elsewhere. and for all the small government (read: real) conservatives and libertarians who like to discuss "what we really have a government for"....i think protecting the populace from natural disasters is right up there. one man's opinion....
No, the problem did not start on election 2000. It took much longer for Bush to raid the budget, to support his vision of the mid-East and uber-wealthy tax cuts. And yes it is politics as it is a failure of the gov't when you lose a major city due to short sighted administration policies.
I just had an observation. I've been reading some of my favorite "on the right" posters here and it seems unusually "mean" and "nasty" here today. My guess...they see the wheels coming off when U.S. citizens are crying "This is not Iraq, we want-we need food and water" "drop something, where are you bush" "we have been abandoned, it shouldn't be cause' we are poor and don't have anything" (I paraphrased a few).
I think they see the wheels coming off. Now I ask, where is a democrat who will step forward to lead? Who ever does it will not become president--but, they can be a leader.
- I personally think the question is insulting as if the merit of what someone is going to do impacts what they say - worldasmaya ============================================================== While all the protesting. You raised the fact that we should help. My question is clear and simple...what have you done to assist the relief effort? What do you plan to do in assisting the relief effort?
I'll be glad to discuss my efforts once you reveal your efforts...you raised the issue...otherwise I'm beginning to smell a disingenuous mouse.
Rocketman, Oh, my this gets tiresome. Let me try and make this easier for you. this gets old fast. I'll give you an email adr. and we can communicate in that fashion. Is that acceptable? In addition, if I do do that what will you do with the information? Will you post an apology for acting so baselessly? Sincerely, WorldasMaya
- Oh, my this gets tiresome - worldasmaya ============================================================== You wouldn't be so tired if you simply explained how you're helping or plan to help the relief effort.
I'm watching the Houston/Oregon football game and they just asked the Houston AD what they were doing to help. Fair question for him on national TV...fair question for you on a little anonymous blog site.
Your reluctance is giving the impression of a lot of talk and little action. If you have plans...share them and be proud...others might find them useful.
Rocketman, You did not ask for plans--as you now do. You asked what I am/was doing. So, I'll make my generous offer again. I can provide you an email adr. on MMFA. Will that suffice? or do you simply wish to engage in this ridiculousness? The choice is yours.
While I await your reply it is clear--At this point your continued b.s. appears to reflect the merit of your query. My guess is that you seek to criticize me after I tell you what I do? you've said that's not the case. I've told you I'd be happy to provide you information and you write back with more b.s. I am still wondering What's your point? do you have one? But, I'll suspend answers to those questions. Thanks, worldasmaya
- My guess is that you seek to criticize me after I tell you what I do? - worldasmaya ============================================================== Nope, I have no plans to criticize. My question has to do with whether you are providing any relief assistance. Your silence provides the obvious answer.
Well King, this case is closed.
Rocketmann, You're not so sharp are you? I am not disclosing a depth of personal information that might identify me on this site. Surely you can respect someone's right to privacy--can you not? I'll make it easy on you. I'll give you an email address after I get something to eat and you can then ask me. I"m trying to be accommodating yet asking you to respect my privacy. How's that?
anyone can claim anything on this site about what they are doing or not doing to assist. it's meaningless. what we do know is that the bush administration's response to this has been absymal. there should have been troops in there two days ago. but we don't want to interrupt the exerciser-in-chief's vacation plans. this man is totally unfit to hold this office.
Mefirst,
I totally agree. and it is quite silly of rocketman. But, the way in which he asked it pushed a button for me...so, I'll induldge him. I feel much more comfortable providing personal data in a more private forum...call me 'private':). worldasmaya
Rocketman, My email address is EntityoneviaMMFA@yahoo.com I look forward to hearing from you. WorldasMaya
"Your silence provides the obvious answer."
-----
As does your loudmouth posturing.
Rocketman, for the third time I am still waiting....... What's your problem? afraid to fire off an email. send me an email-I'll send you answers to your question. it's quite simple. Either that or why don't you simply keep your mouth shut if you can't follow through with your actions. I will keep your email confidential or you can create a yahoo account for this purpose.
Either send me the email or walk away. Your lack of reply says volumes about efforts in N.O. I'll tell you what--I wont even ask you if your doing anything to help. If you can't follow through than don't subtly impune my integrity? That's fair. worldasmaya entityoneviaMMFA@yahoo.com that's
ENTITY ONE VIA MMFA @ YAHOO.COM
Rocketman,
I thought I'd check back one more time. Well, can't say I didn't try and get along with you.
Rocketman, why don't you apologize for sticking your neck a little too far out. Don't call me on anything again unless you grow some guts or you can apologize. I'll graciously accept your apology as well:) Regretfully, WorldasMaya
PS: If you actually do follow up with me--I'll be the one to apologize here. you have my word.
"Rocketman, why don't you apologize for sticking your neck a little too far out. Don't call me on anything again unless you grow some guts or you can apologize."
He's just trying to get under your skin. I dealt with him yesterday, and answered his challenges while he offered up absolutely nothing except for utterly moronic and empty criticism thereof. But I kept civil and steadfast and he ran off, because he can't participate at that level. It was very easy to get the better of him, but entertaining nonetheless. Given his behavior, I don't think he has the manhood to apologize for anything.
I would also be surprised if someone who behaves in such a manner actually raised $13000 for the relief effort. If he did, good for him, but it seems highly inconsistent with his juvenile behavior. His failure to contact you is probably a good indication of that, as he should have no problem supplying you with proof of his efforts in return for your evidence of yours.
Margaret "Peggy" Noonan is a ruling-class snob. As such, she can't distinguish between the struggle for survival and a messy riot. That's what this is about and she is despicable.
Noonan didn't say anything about killing or murder...she just said for them to be shot...nothing about them dying from the wounds...
by grhino
So shooting a looter is fine? Just as long as you don't actually kill them. I don't believe people are even contemplating shooting other human beings over some looting.
It's a pity the right-wingers don't feel any moral outraged towards George W. Bush's antics during hurricane Katrina, and its aftermath.
If there should be a public lynching, it certainly isn't some looters in New Orleans. Have you noticed Fox News hasn’t covered the looting in Mississippi? I wonder why?
So if you feel the need to shoot anybody. Don't kill them outright, which would be murder, and morally wrong. Just wound them, and let them die from the disease that will follow because of the filthy water, and raw sewage that is in the floodwater. Let them suffer in agonising pain, that will teach them, to try and provide for their families.
Maybe George can strum his new guitar, and fill his face with cake. As people are being shot, for trying to stay alive.
Protect the businesses; forget about the victims of the flood.
tommy,
I'm burning with curiosity. You've claimed that all the big bad liberals keep making baseless claims that the Iraq war has siphoned resources from local emergencies such as the current situation in the Gulf basin. Let's keep it cut and dry. Could you perhaps just answer the following? I think it might be very enlightening to everyone including you.
Do you believe that having 3000 LA National Guard troops in Iraq has affected rescue efforts in New Orleans? Are the residents better off or worse as a result of this indisputable fact?
Do you believe that cutting 20% of the funds from LA's Army Core of Engineers this year, the largest single cut ever, has affected this tragedy in a positive or negative affect on the current situation?
Do you believe that it should have taken our President 4 days after the worst natural disaster in U.S. history to go back to work and curtail his vacation?
An addendum to the last question: How would you react if President Clinton had been on vacation during a tragedy of this magnitude yet it took Mr. Clinton several days to end his vacation and return to Washington?
I'm just curious, I think your answers will be fascinating. Please, just answer the questions, I'd be happy to do the same for you in total honesty.
ffakr.
If any of us wondered if the Federal government would be prepared for a full-scale terrorist attack and it's aftermath, I believe we're getting a "sneak preview" as we watch the confusion and lack of organization in New Orleans. God help us.
--------------------------------------------------------
Government's Role Planning, Response Are Faulted
By Josh White and Peter Whoriskey Washington Post Staff Writers Friday, September 2, 2005; Page A01
Tens of thousands of people remain stranded on the streets of New Orleans in desperate conditions because officials failed to plan for a serious levee breach and the federal response to Hurricane Katrina was slow, according to disaster experts and Louisiana government officials.
Though experts had long predicted that the city -- which sits below sea level and is surrounded by water -- would face unprecedented devastation after an immense hurricane, they said problems were worsened by a late evacuation order and insufficient emergency shelter for as many as 100,000 people.
Terry Ebbert, head of New Orleans's emergency operations, said the response from the Federal Emergency Management Agency was inadequate and that Louisiana officials have been overwhelmed.
"This is a national disgrace. FEMA has been here three days, yet there is no command and control," Ebbert told the Associated Press as he watched refugees evacuate the Superdome yesterday. "We can send massive amounts of aid to tsunami victims, but we can't bail out the city of New Orleans. We have got a mayor who has been pushing and asking, but we're not getting supplies."
[link to www.washingtonpost.com]
(you may need to register to read the article--but it's free and well worth it)
With another perspective on this.....
They should have been planning on a Category 5 storm hitting the city of New Orleans.
Any and all of their relief efforts should not be excused by them saying that the storm got worse after the first day because the levees failed - they should have expected the flooding.
In addition, the city of New Orleans had a disaster drill last year, and they found out that about a third of the citizens had said that they would not or could not leave town voluntarily if there was an evacuation.
Now, it's hard to force people to leave. But now they cannot tell all the people in New Orleans what they need to do, because communication methods are non-existent.
Before the hurricane hit, they could communicate with the citizens of New Orleans. The evacuation planners should have known that many citizens didn't have the money or the transportation to leave, and should have known that many had said during the drill that they would not leave, and should have known that communication methods would be ineffective after this natural disaster. In addition, they should have recognized that with it being the end of the month, those poorest of the poor have no money left at the end of the month. No money for gas, for a bus ticket, for motel rooms.
So, they should have offered free rides to those that were willing to leave town. Before the storm hit.
Like I said, they could not force people to evacuate with two day's notice, but they could have evacuated willing people before the storm. They could have evacuated people right after the hurricane if they had planned properly. They did not plan well.
Bad planning.
What would we do if there were truly a terrorist attack in one of our cities? Bush's Homeland Security has failed this country and this city.
FFaker, Nice post. I asked Tommy the same questions (very very similiar..as they are facts) and he never responded. I then asked either resources are finite and they are being used in Iraq or not. If they are fine...but, admit it. THe failure to take responsibility for actions is unbelievable in its level of denial.
"Do you believe that having 3000 LA National Guard troops in Iraq has affected rescue efforts in New Orleans? Are the residents better off or worse as a result of this indisputable fact?" --ffakr
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Assuming ffakr's information is accurate, as of Thursday, there were more LA National Guard troops in Iraq than there were in New Orleans.
"...As we speak, in addition to local law enforcement, we have 2,800 National Guard in News Orleans as we speak today.
An additional 1,400 National Guard, military police-trained soldiers, will be arriving every day - 1,400 today, 1,400 tomorrow, and 1,400 the next day. In effect, what that does is add the entire membership number of the New Orleans police force every day to the pool of security personnel who are in New Orleans." -- Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff
"Think what's happened in our cities when we've had riots and problems and looting. Stuff happens!" —D. Rumsfeld (April 2003)
Rep. Charles W. Boustany Jr., (R-La.), said he spent the past 48 hours urging the Bush administration to send help. "I started making calls and trying to impress upon the White House and others that something needed to be done," he said. "The State resources were being overwhelmed, and we needed direct federal assistance, command and control, and security -- all three of which are lacking."
======================
Let's not blame anyone like some of the posters are saying, it's bad when repugs have to complain about the help.
I was watching CNN this morning (and MMFA might want to do a write up on this, on the right hand side of the page filed under "ridiculous".)
Jamie McIntyre, the pentagon reporter, said the pentagon was baffled (or some such word) that the American public had so much sympathy for the tens of thousands of refugees but they didn't have any sympathy for the federal government. They thought the American people should have sympathy for the federal government and the huge undertaking they had in dealing with this crisis.
I kid you not.
It must have been a repeat from last night because the exchange was between Aaron Brown and Jamie McIntyre. Aaron did the "duh, of course of first thought is going to be with the victims, not the beureaucrats.
"They thought the American people should have sympathy for the federal government and the huge undertaking they had in dealing with this crisis."
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When the Federal government is trapped inside an attic with rising water and in fear of drowning, I'll feel sorry for them. As for now, get the relief out to those who are needlessly suffering due to the shortsighted, selfish decisions made by those at the top of the Administration.
Metaphorically speaking, this administration is trapped inside an attic with rising water and in fear of drowning. Their policies have been repeated failures, but I still don't feel sorry for them.
With hurricane Katrina, the chickens are coming home to roost. When people start demanding answers to some very legitimate questions, the failures and short sightedness of this administration are going to be ugly.
Missy,
I saw that clip also and I was astounded. My what a quandary, who do I empathize with? Do we empathize with the POOR people who couldn't get out of NO and are now stuck in a giant diseased infested sewer with no food and water or bureaucrats sitting in an air conditioned conference room eating and drinking and discussing the trivial minutiae of the rescue effort. They need to get of their a--es and send in the troops with food water equpped with everything they need to get those people out of there and shut the hell up
Did you hear the Mayor of NOLA, Nagin, I believe?
He said they wanted to get "local city bus drivers" to come in and help with the evacuation of the Superdome.
He was sooooo angry! Local bus drivers? He wanted to know where the Greyhound buses were. This is a huge national disaster and they are thinking so small.
If those are the kinds of ideas they are coming up with, sitting in their AC offices, the only sympathy I will give them is sympathy for being so stupid.
Yes, I was just listening to him on Air America without the bleeps, his hurt and anger is palpable.
This may be interesting. This situation is further deteriorating America's reputation internationally. They can't believe that we can't evacuate a city any better than this.
[link to news.bbc.co.uk]
This was an interesting comment from a poster on BBC:
"As an anthropologist, it is apparent that what is happening in the American South is the result of a "perfect storm". It is not only a natural disaster but also a human disaster. For the last past 25 years the Republican political strategy called "starve the beast" has reduced spending on the public sector while enriching the private sector. This intensifies not only socioeconomic inequities, but also intensifies the decay of critical public infrastructure like roads, schools, hospitals, and even levees. Citizens still have the expectation that the public sector (government) will take care of them, while the people in power expect the private sector to replace the public sector in disaster relief." Dan Cring, Lafayette, Louisiana, USA
A worthwhile comment, indeed. And remember that the British have a public health system. How many will die after this storm because we don't have one? Or, worse, how many physicians, hospitals and others will praise themselves, make themselves seem like martyrs, for the services they provide to the victims, services that should be provided free anyway?
I just wondered...
Oh here we go all of you Righties with your high and moral VALUES....They deserve to be shot until its your a.. trying to find food, water and shoes to walk thru the stench of New Orleans. Question: Why were these people not evacuated BEFORE the storm hit???? As Bush was on Vacation in texas, Idaho, Utah he WAS informed that this was going to be a HUGE storm on Thursday. 4 Days before it hit the coast. Thats 4-days HELLLLOOOOOOOOO its not even sad, its pathetic. Do me a favor and take your RICH tax cuts or better yet the lousey $500. bucks and hope that this does not end up in your back yard. Oh yeah your more worried about the terrorists, I say worry about the incompetence of your government that YOU voted for and the so called Elites that Bush put in to run FEMA, Dept of Homeland Security and then Condi buying shoes on 5th avenue as children were suffering and the old were having blankets thrown on them because they Died waiting for help from the compassionate Right. I am calling the Detroit mayors office to see if I can help them with the 500 families they want to airlift out of New Orleans. The problem is WHO and how do you pick them from 100,000 Americans not REFUGEES. God help us all because its just going to get worse.
As others have probably said, perhaps Noonan should be---errrr----wounded in action.
Noonan never got over Grimm's fairy tales and the fact that anyone reads her is a testament to the quality of American education. Now she makes comments like those of Pat "Da Hitman" Robertson, and she has media that have her on as guests?
Hmmm. Why is it I won't allow television news and talking heads programs on in my house?
Pat "Da Hitman" Robertson. You have just coined a perfect nick name for Pat. I think I will refer to him as "Da Hitman" from now on.
Such a predictable response to blame Bush right away. This crisis reveals the lack of leadership from the N.O.Mayor and LA Governor....These are still the United STATES of America! Remember how Rudy G. took charge after 9/11? Only the Feds can provide the amount of money and manpower required here....but Mayor Nagin and Governor Blanco failed to establish an immediate command and control presence.
Bad seeds exist in all strata of society...whether looting a jewelry store or Enron, justice needs to be served...however, in the chaos of NewOrleans, courtrooms will be replaced by shootouts in the streets.
Unbelievable!
The Army Corps of Engineers requested money to improve the Levee. They were GRANTED ONLY 20% BY THE ADMINISTRATION because of the Iraq war and homeland security. Well guess what, we're loosing the war (more casualties today) and New Orleans is certainly not secure. As we are a domocracy, we find revolution distasteful - but there will be an election in 2006 and that's not too far in the future. My feelings now can be summed up by the old "Airplane" song which talked about "up against the wall"....
Funny thing....it's LEGAL to loot provisions for survival, all other looting is ILLEGAL. It's clearly defined.
Lawlessness propagates lawlessness.
Search and rescue can't commence or continue without law and order. Period.
It's not about the stuff, already! It's about LAW AND ORDER!
So we should forgive the looters for displaying "righteous anger", huh?! In that case, I guess we should excuse the 9/11 hijackers for displaying their "righteous anger", right?
Hi all. Haven't even read your posts yet, I just had to chip in here, because this is simply outrageous.
Noonan's column, and other similar outbursts from far right wing media personalities in this context, put much in perspective I think. It is the final proof that the right values property and owner's rights higher than human beings, (so long as those human beings are not white anyway). It's kind of telling, and does offer an explanation as good as anyone as to why US foreign politics are the way they are.
Media all over the world reports today that military forces are being deployed in the area, with a standing order to shoot anyone who is helping him-/herself to a pair of dry pants or a tv. Of course a tv set is not needed to survive a catastrophe, but where are the perspectives? It sounds as if Patriot Act 2 came and went and number 3 has arrived. Not only no trial, immediate execution! Is your entire country slowly becoming a war zone now? Is there no end to the Rovian innovations of using disaster for political gain?
The debate on whether the US is heading towards fascism or not has up til now been more or less academic. But in the aftermath of Katrina, your administration has managed to surprise the world yet again. This is a sad day for all humanists.
People are dying from not receiving help in time, and the US president deploys military forces to protect things.
It's so disgusting I'm lost for words.
Has Anyone made the suggestion yet what should happen to the Neo-Con Carpetbaggers should be similar to what Noonan proposed to do to the NOLA looters?
When a Rich man steals to only enrich himself, he is praised by all. When a poor man steals to feed his family, he is condemned by all.
Noonan says the Looters should be shot.
Let's start a list of the Neo-con looters of America and start with them:
Bush Family
Cheney
Noonan
O'Reily
Rush Limbaugh
Coulter
Clintons
Kennedys
Add other names as you see fit. And please forward this suggestion to as many other people as you can. Noonan has her MSM forum...the little guy has to make do with the net.
Once again, as repeated here endlessly by reasonable posters.......Noonan NEVER said that looters stealing food for themselves or their family should be shot - in fact just the contrary. Her point, and hers alone, was for those stealing non essential goods.
Please read the item before you blindly post.
Once again, as repeated here endlessly by reasonable posters.......Noonan NEVER said that looters stealing food for themselves or their family should be shot - in fact just the contrary. Her point, and hers alone, was for those stealing non essential goods.
Please read the item before you blindly post.
by tommy - Friday September 2, 2005 02:49:14 PM EST
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Cops are not allowed to shoot people that are looting.
They can only use deadly force {shooting someone is deadly force, even if you don't kill them} confronted with deadly force or to prevent deadly force from being used by another. Law enforcement officers are authorized to use deadly force only when it is reasonable and necessary to protect the officer or others from an imminent danger of death or serious physical injury to the officer or another person.
Tommy,
I just wonder if she plans on shooting the gas station owners that raised the price of gas up to $6 per gallon in GA yesterday. Aren't they looting too.
Hi Tommy.
You wrote:
"Once again, as repeated here endlessly by reasonable posters.......Noonan NEVER said that looters stealing food for themselves or their family should be shot - in fact just the contrary. Her point, and hers alone, was for those stealing non essential goods.
Please read the item before you blindly post." ------------------------------------------------------------------
Speaking for myself, I of course read the item before posting, (in case your criticism was at all directed at me). I only had to get my reaction off my chest before reading the 200+ posts. (They're 300+ by now...). But I apologize if I was only repeating things already said.
You're right in that Noonan's point of course is her point alone, but I know from the top of my head of at least two prominent talking heads at Fox that have expressed similar sentiments recently. Neither of which made any such distinctions; (looting for life versus for "riches"). And I know I have seen this repeatedly during the course of this week. Fox being Fox, it feels a bit like cabaret, as always obviously, but when it is put into motion for real it's not funny anymore.
Please misunderstand me correctly, I couldn't care less about which American party of the big 2 is supposed to be "better", or which American tv channel tell less lies. The answer might be out there, and "some say" it is obvious. I believe the difference is a lot smaller than most Americans think. But to me these matters are not even a question of left or right: Truth is truth, and people are people. My feeling is that to shoot anyone is a crime, only that's just my humble point of view. What I have a harder time understanding is the priorities put forth by the authorities in question here: Property over human life. And in a time of disaster at that. Then again it unfortunately rings an unfortunate bell.
Still it's not a very difficult or even important issue, is it? If someone is looting for riches: Arrest that person and give him/her a fair trial. Like we do in the rest of the civilized world. If that's impossible just let it go. (I know for a fact that America is no stranger to the socialist concept of insurances, neither private nor federal ones). Why not channel all resources towards saving people's lives? Shooting looters at the spot instead sends a strong message to the rest of the world that our worst fears about where you are heading are soon to become reality.
As always though, respectfully,
jw
In reality, cities and states in this country are responsible for the majority of their own infrastructure. The Feds assume a portion of those costs as they should and do.
With the massive amount of tourist money that has flowed into New Orleans over the years, there's no excuse for its failure to invest in its own security.
That's reality.
Well Ash, Rocketman just sort of pulled it out of the blue and called the poster Buckwheat for some unknown reason. You are familiar with the Our Gang Series from the 30s & 40s right?
Oh, I get it now. Thanks for the clarification. I am familiar with the series on which Robert Blake got his start, but misunderstood that someone was posting under the name Buckwheat.
"It should have been an "all clear" if New Orleans would have invested just a portion of its hundreds of millions of tourist dollars in the upgrade of its own levees.
Inexcusable!" -qwerty
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FYI---The federally funded US ARMY Corps of Engineers builds and maintains the levees.
I could not see where it is even possible for the City of New Orleans to build or fund the maintenance of the levees.
Nice try at deflecting blame, though. :(
Some of this discussion has sunk to absurd levels.
There have been points made by both sides that are valid on a logical and civilized level. The point that the dangerous elements raping and terrorizing people and hindering rescue efforts need to be brought under control is VALID. Saying that we should just shoot to kill is NOT VALID.
Saying that our GOVERNMENT has failed us once again in a time of great tragedy is VALID and something that every one of us should be very, very concerned about. Saying it's ALL Bush's/Republican's fault or ALL Clinton's/Democrat's fault is not valid.
As far as I'm concerned every elected official and gov't organization that participated in the negligence of providing for the safety and well-being of the citizens of this country on 9/11 and throughout Katrina is to blame, I don't give a rat's ass whether they are D's or R's.
I don't give a rat's ass whether they are D's or R's.
by rjc
Who's been in charge of the house, senate, presidency?
I don't disagree with you. Republicans are horrible overseers of our country.
I agree with you that those who endanger other people should be dealt with harshly. If someone waves a gun around, shoot them. I'll shed no tears for them.
>> As far as I'm concerned every elected official and gov't organization that participated in the negligence of providing for the safety and well-being of the citizens of this country on 9/11 and throughout Katrina is to blame, I don't give a rat's ass whether they are D's or R's.
Not everyone feels that way, rjc. And some are even now beginning a campaign to dump heaps of blame squarely on the Democratic governor and mayor of New Orleans. Don't think for an instant that the Republicans who used fear, 9/11, and terror alerts to get themselves elected will hesitate to loot this tragedy for more power for themselves.
Unfortunately I know you are correct and it's sad because the battle lines will be drawn between the D's and the R's and the the citizen's of this country will once again find themselves in the middle of some catastrophe that probably could have been prevented.
I'm no fan of Republicans and I believe that conservatism is a revolting ideology but I would work with ANYBODY who wanted to honestly address the issues of this country. I know it will never happen.
Nice words, rjc....
The levees SANK FOUR FEET and needed to be upgraded. Republicans didn't give them the money to do it. That happened on Bush's watch.
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You might have an argument if these levees were installed in 2000. Too bad for you, hippie.
When the desperate get truly desperate, they reach for defunct labels.
dave - Friday September 2, 2005 05:35:02 PM EST
Once upon a time, there was a village idiot named Sagra. One day, the villagers became fed up with Sagra's no point stories so they killed him. They declared that day "Dave Day".<<
This happened in Daves fevered mind, the only place in the known universe where Daves worthless posts are seen as even in the same league with Sagras posts.
Why is it considered "Bush bashing" to point out the mistakes and bad policy decisions that he is responsible for? If the money for the levee work had not been used for invading a country that posed no threat to us, New Orleans would be in much better shape. And actually so would Iraq.
I don't care what you call it. Bash em! Bash em back to the stone age where he and his ilk belong. Bush sees the Bogey man in Iraq and everyone from here to Iraq suffers. Tar, feather and imprison the SOB. You've been Bushed.
This is a republican tactic. Change the subject. Take the spotlight off of what matters and focus it on a side issue. The focus needed to be on what needed to be done in order to save our fellow citizen's lives. Peggy Noonan along with many right wing folks did not want us to focus on that important work. Because if we did we may notice the total neglect, indifference, lack of response, incompetence, ineffectiveness, ineptness of the the president and his administration. They do this type of thing all the time. This time for them they chose a distraction that was also conveniently an excuse for their mediocrity and lack of leadership. Other tactics I have heard used in the past few days is "this is not the time to assign blame" they are once again shamelessly using the 9/11 comparison to suggest that we should all come together as we did then (in other words don't place blame), they are trying to blame someone else such as the mayor & governor of the state, I have heard them use the term "bush haters" to describe people demanding a rescue effort in order to dismiss critics of this incompetent response. Fox News is trying desperately to shift the focus onto the "heroic" efforts of (of course the "red state") texas. The really sad thing is that many Americans agree with her. Another sad thing for republicans especially is that your fellow right wingers would sacrifice you and your families in a time of crisis in order to protect the image of the republican party politicians. The republican led congress, the republican led senate & the republican led administration have failed miserably in this crisis. Anyone is expendable in order for them to hold onto their power. Even those who vote for them.
This jackass woman thinks people who are trying to survive should be shot. i wonder if she would say that if most of the people were white
"We just hope our people are prepared. It's kind of late in the year to be making disaster plans." -Larry Ingargiola, director of the St. Bernard Parish Emergency Preparedness
They weren't!
Here's a simple analogy for the delay in this crisis:
Paramedics are responsible for stabilizing a patient until they can be transferred to a hospital for comprehensive treatment.
The local government should have fulfilled the duties of the "paramedic" in this case. The feds are the "hospital". The pundits here are trying to blame the "hospital" for not stabilizing the patient.
The state and local government should have "stabilized" the patient in the first two days by providing water, food, first aid, security and a general sense of command and control with its own law enforcement and National Guard.
History will reveal this initial failure by the city and state officials.
the local and state authorities were overwhelmed after the hurricane. now here comes the shocking part. we have fema because the local governments are unable to cope. that's why fema exists, it's their mission. there is absolutely no excuse for the delays that took place, or for the fact that the levees did not have to fail if the army corp of engineers had been on them right after the storm had passed. michael chertoff said on meet the press that they were "surprised" the levees breached after the storm. is there anything these people aren't caught off guard by?
Why didn't FEMA/DHS allow Red Cross into NOLA immediately following the hurricane?
[link to www.dailykos.com]
So here goes: Homeland Security (her term, not mine) told the Red Cross DO NOT enter New Orleans and says this still now. And why, you may ask? Not Security. Not worker safety. Not lack of access. It was because people would be drawn to the Red Cross food and they wouldn't want to go to be evacuated.
So, the question for Bushies, why was the Red Cross banned from NO when they knew people were starving? Could it be they were saving the convention center rescue until Bush's visit today? It certainly seems like it. Doesn't it?
Overwhelmed?!!!State and local did NOTHING AT ALL!!! That's why it spun out of control.
State and local did NOTHING AT ALL!!! by qwerty
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You don't help the discussion by this kind of exaggeration. They may not have done enough, and what they did may not have been the right thing to do. But it is wrong to say they did nothing at all. For instance, the mayor ordered evacuation and set up the superdome as a last resort shelter, and the governor declared a state of emergency. As I said, you could argue convincingly that these things were inappropriate or insufficient, but you can't logically argue that they are "nothing".
i hope everyone notices "coop" has rejoined us to add his one-line swill to the debate.
I was glad to see him back last night.
How many links would you like?
[link to www.post-gazette.com]
"The Homeland Security Department has requested and continues to request that the American Red Cross not come back into New Orleans," said Renita Hosler, spokeswoman for the Red Cross.
"Right now access is controlled by the National Guard and local authorities. We have been at the table every single day [asking for access]. We cannot get into New Orleans against their orders."
In all honesty, there's little "discussion" on this site.
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I guess you're just doing your share to avoid real discussion then? Well then...ummm...great job? I guess?
"Though frustrated, Hosler understood the reasons. The goal is to move people out of an uninhabitable city, and relief operations might keep them there. Security is so bad that she fears feeding stations might get ransacked."Right now everybody is looking at FEMA and pointing fingers. Frankly, I have to tell you, I'm sympathetic. When in your lifetime have we experienced this? Even though we all do disaster scenario planning, we have to accept the reality that this is an extraordinary event. This is America's tsunami, that struck and ravaged America's most disaster-vulnerable city," he said.Because New Orleans remains under water, it is different from other cities where Katrina struck harder, but where relief efforts are proceeding normally. Agencies place workers and supplies outside disaster areas before storms, to move in quickly. But there are always delays, Burton said, because nothing is deployed until experts survey the damage and decide where to most effectively put relief services."We have 51 emergency canteens on the ground in the other affected areas. But where the need is greatest, in downtown New Orleans, there just is no access. That is the problem every relief group is facing," she said."
Thanks again Missy, pretty much sums up the situation and exonerates Bush.
No, it does not exhonerate Bush.
There were people starving at the Superdome. Red Cross wanted to go feed them and give them water.
DHS said no. I guess they could just starve.
there was no "access" to downtown new orleans? and yet we've seen reporters all over the city. and many arrived well after the storm. maybe the bush administration needs to catch a clue from the news organizations.
"we've seen reporters all over the city" said mefirst.
Can you tell us how much equipment and supplies they were able to bring with them. How much did they share or distribute?
the point would be, my pod people bush supporter stymie, if the news organizations can get in, the army and national guard could have gotten in with their much superior equipment and done it much earlier. as clueless as you seem to be, i hope you're not suggesting it was up to nbc to bring in supplies?
"if the news organizations can get in, the army and national guard could have gotten in with their much superior equipment" said mefirst
The question remains. What supplies and equipment were they able to bring in? A transport with 8000 gallons of fuel? A semitrailer loaded with food and water?
The question remains. by stymied
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LOL mefirst. Apparently this poster is expecting the media to bring in the supplies. No wonder this all went so wrong...somebody forgot to alert the media to their responsibility!
The question remains. What supplies and equipment were they able to bring in? A transport with 8000 gallons of fuel? A semitrailer loaded with food and water?
by stymie
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Somebody always seems to be able to do something that shrub can't do, shmendrik.
It kinda helps if ya give a damn in the first place.
and the answer remains, stymie. the news organizations got in much earlier than the army and let me repeat, the army is much better equipped. this is not rocket science. the feds went in friday, finally, what changed from tuesday? it was the same flooded city. i saw the army/guard trucks going in on video myself. they were certainly big enough to be carrying lots of supplies. your bumbling heroes just didn't get it done as quickly as they could. the claim was there was no "access". clearly there was. and the gop senator from louisiana, vitter i think, said fema got an "f", for their response. but bush has you so swooning over his genius, you don't know up from down.
You don't have a clue
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Name calling and personal attacks...tsk tsk, you do get touchy when you are called on your silly questions.
The fact is that the news media was able to get into the heart of New Orleans.
If they could have done it, then the military, with bigger vehicles more capable of travelling under difficult circumstances, with helicopters bigger than traffic copters, etc., should have been able to enter the city and go wherever they were needed.
FEMA claimed that they had difficulty entering some parts of the city to supply and resupply citizens.
That claim cannot be believed.
This decade is only 2/5th done according to the records from the NOAA that go thru 2004. When one adds the storms already in 2005, and extrapolates this data that is available, this decade will be the worst on record, with the most bad storms, and the most storms total.
Hurricane storm totals vary. In some areas, weather will be colder than normal because global warming changes weather patterns. In other areas, there may be more hurricanes because of global warming making the oceans warming, and storms may be worse because they travel over warmer water. No one knows for sure. I have seen few arguments that global warming caused these storms and caused this storm to be as bad as it was, but it is inaccurate for you to claim that there is no evidence that there is a link between global warming and bad storms. You cannot claim with any reliability that there is no link between global warming and these hurricanes.
Bush cut funding for both the levees and for the restoration of the natural ecology of the wetlands near New Orleans. The failure to get these projects funded is clearly a result of prioritization. We know what Bush saw as his priority. Iraq. He is a "what's best for the short-term" person who fails to think of what's best for the long term. The levees in New Orleans were built to withstand a direct hit from a Category 3 storm. New Orleans was not directly hit, nor did the storm surge focus on the levees. It was the storm surge that hit Mississippi. There apparently were a couple of weak places in the dikes in New Orleans that were breached on Monday. Even though they were breached on Monday, no one even announced they were breached until Tuesday. Even today the Homeland Security guy on TV was saying "Tuesday, er, uh, Monday night, early Tuesday morning", but it was really Monday afternoon.
3000 National Guardsmen that Louisiana has left is not enough. 6500, immediately called up and available, might could have been enough.
You were wrong on every one of your points.