Brooks, Matthews on illegal immigrants' "culture of criminality"; Parker: "[T]hey are not assimilating, they're not learning English"
On NBC's syndicated The Chris Matthews Show, New York Times columnist David Brooks asserted that illegal immigrants come to the United States "with a culture of criminality."
On the December 18 broadcast of NBC's syndicated The Chris Matthews Show, New York Times columnist David Brooks asserted that illegal immigrants come to the United States "with a culture of criminality." Discussing a recent NBC News/Wall Street Journal survey, columnist Kathleen Parker, dubbed by her syndication service as "a maverick conservative," attributed attitudes toward illegal immigrants to the feeling "that the loyalties of those people [Hispanics] are for their countries back home ... rather than to the United States. And because they are not assimilating, they're not learning English." NBC News chief foreign affairs correspondent Andrea Mitchell disagreed with both Brooks's and Parker's assertions. When Mitchell said, "[T]here's no way you can say that the people who are coming in now have a culture of criminality," host Chris Matthews disagreed: "No -- it's about them coming in illegally -- they come in illegally to start with."
From the December 18 broadcast of NBC's syndicated The Chris Matthews Show:
MATTHEWS: But what about people that choose to come in the country illegally? What are we going to do about that? What do we do?
MITCHELL: Well, there has to be a way, and the compromise that might emerge from this legislation might be the way -- but the most interesting thing in the NBC poll this week, the NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll, is how huge majorities of people who are against the immigration now and think that they're -- they should not be coming, they're illegal, are in favor of the immigrants that came a hundred years ago. People have a very different attitude toward our ancestors who came --
MATTHEWS: -- from Europe.
MITCHELL: Our grandparents who came, our ancestors who came from Europe. And what's the difference? Skin color.
MATTHEWS: I think the -- vast-- further, Kathleen --
PARKER: No, I think it's because they feel -- basically, we're talking about Hispanics, right? And they think that -- they feel that the loyalties of those people are for their countries back home --
MITCHELL: I think it's racist.
PARKER: -- rather than to the United States. And because they are not assimilating, they're not learning English and, you know --
MITCHELL: Any more so than the Irish or the white, the white immigrants?
JOE KLEIN [Time magazine columnist]: A hundred years ago, people said the same thing about the Italians and the Jews that they're saying about the Mexicans now. There's an awful lot of -- There's an awful -- There's an awful -- There's an awful lot of nodding and winking.
MATTHEWS: So why do -- why do -- Go ahead, David.
BROOKS: This is important. This is important -- it's not racist -- when the immigrants -- Listen, I'm for pretty open immigration. But when the immigrants come, they come with a culture of criminality. It's out of control, and I can see people wanting to put the system in control.
MITCHELL: I don't how you can say that, David. I don't know how you can say that. I disagree profoundly.
KLEIN: This is the biggest domestic issue in this country right now.
MATTHEWS: I want to know what the counter-argument is. Should -- do -- has anybody openly say whether it's the organized Latino groups or business groups that say it's OK that people come in this country and the first thing they do is break the law by coming in, is anybody willing to say that openly?
KLEIN: There's a lot of nodding and winking. People say it, but they don't believe it. The business community wants the status quo.
MATTHEWS: They want illegal hire --
KLEIN: They want to be able to be able to keep on hiring people --
MATTHEWS: People that are in the country illegally.
MITCHELL: Absolutely. California and Florida growers depend upon these -- these migrant workers. And that is part of the economic underpinning of it. But I really believe that, that there's no way you can say that the people who are coming in now have a culture of criminality. No more so than you can say it about Jewish ancestors --
MATTHEWS: No -- it's about them coming in illegally -- they come in illegally to start with --
BROOKS: There's no control -- no system --
MATTHEWS: Kathleen. Kathleen. Last word. Is this going to be a big political issue the president has to bow to, whatever his politics are?
PARKER: Yeah, he's got to deal with it. Absolutely.
The other right-wing media mogul you should worry about
Palin's book and Obama's bow: a media week to forget
Media Matters: The Palin chronicles
I didn't realize that English was an official language, oh wait it's not.
America is unique because it's a "melting pot". If you strip away and throw out your native language completely you have no flavor to offer this country, and frankly you lose your identity as a culture.
The problem in this country is that we generally can't seem to learn more than one language, and the problem isn't that we're smart enough. It's that we're so ethno-centric we refuse to teach anything other than English. It has been my observation that outside of the United States most college/high school educated people are bilingual at the least.
If in bilingual you mean fluent, they are not. But if you mean they know some of another language or two, yes. I have travelled out of the U.S. many times and that is what I have encountered. I bring a phrase book and get by which is the only thing you can do if you go to Spain, Germany, Poland and the Czech Republic as I have done in the last two years. Unless of course, you are going to learn a new language every time you go to a new country. Most people don't expect you to know their language but they expect you to try and communicate with them in it. With a good phrase book you should be able to do that. I think most people in this country are the same way.
America is about immigration... I am in favor of legal immigration, I can't support illegal immigration though. It is breaking the law. I live in South Florida where this law is broken everyday. Yes, we need "FAIR" immigration, which in a lot of cases I don't think our immigration policies are fair... I believe in the law though, and like my ancestors (who came over a hundred years ago LEGALLY), and my wife(who is a Latin immigrant whom by the way speaks perfect English and came here LEGALLY), immigrants need to come legally. PERIOD... Coming illegally breaks the law...
Also, I have to say I agree that there are too many immigrants who refuse to learn English. I work with many of them. They think that we should learn Spanish. Bilingual does not mean English and Spanish. It means you know two languages, which I happen to speak two others besides English...I am totally in favor of bilingualism, as long as English is the primary language spoken in America. I think we all can agree with that.
So I do agree that a lot of them don't want to adapt our to our way of life. Drivers license tests should not be given in Spanish. It should be English. While there is no "law" that says English is the official language of our land, what langugae does our government speak? What language is the Constitution written in? The Declaration of Independence? It should be in the foreigners best interest to learn English without a law having to force them to learn. I agree, Americans need to learn more than one language, that is for our own good....but its not fair that foreigners can simply click "Espanol" on a driver's license test, and not even have to speak that much English to become a US citizen. I see US citizens that don't speak English. I don't care for that.
Whatever you chose to speak inside your own home is fine, but in the outside world, Americans speak English.
Now, to say that they are criminals I disagree 110% with. The right wing loves to paint that image which is horrible. America is about immigration, but its about legal immigration, and the immigrants wanting to become Americans. They shouldn't lose their culture from their homeland, but I see too many cars on the road with only a flag of a foreign nation, where it even says in spanish "my country" referring to their homeland flag, and nowhere on that car is an American flag. That is a shame, and disrespectful to America. I don't mind foreigners putting another country's flag on display, but you need an Americas flag out as well. After all, you took a pledge of allegiance to our flag while you are in the US. You can be a dual citizen, but never forget your pledge as an American...
Unless your ancestors came in the last 50 years they didn't come LEGALLY. They came and adjusted their status once they were here. Keep in mind not all immigrants came in through Castle Garden, Ellis Island or some of the other portals. At Ellis Island there were over 3,000 suicides by people who were rejected (mostly for health reasons).
Don't like ILLEGAL entry into the country? Then make legal entry available. As of now, the average Mexican CANNOT enter legally, never, in no fashion.
Georgia Boy
Parker has been in the Chicago Tribune here for several years but recently her columns have become more and more radically Rovian talking points. I think the envelope stuffed with money, with Coulter and Malkin's name crossed out, has found its way into Kathleen Shill's hand. It's good that she's getting TV time, more exposure for her parroting.
The proof that the latest round of illegal immigration hysterics is about something other than immigration (that something being racism/ethnocentrism) can be found by observing just how little it is that those at the front of anti-immigrant movements actually know about the current wave of immigration to the U.S. There's no sign that "assimilation" (a hotly debated term in social scientific circles, and not one thrown around loosely as in the media, and certainly not with such pejorative tones) of the current immigrants is taking place at a slower clip than the immigration of old, for which we as a nation, wax nostalgic.
A simple analysis of Census data shows that even the poorest of poor Mexicans are English-proficient by the second generation and even among the first generation, proficiency increases with length of U.S. residence. For those who "hang on" to their Spanish (or whatever their native language is) good for them. Studies show that their primed for academic and occupational success.
Brooks and Parker seem unwilling to back up their assertions with some social scientific facts, which, by the way, are not hard to gather. This, I suppose, makes them both hacks.
A few years ago people in Los Angeles sued the School District because it was not offering enough ESL classes to meet the demand. The court ruled it was not necessary to provide all the classes people wanted (well, let's face it - needed). Of course people want to learn to speak and read and write English (although a very recent study found 1 in 10 adults in this county is a functional illiterate and it cut across all levels of education including graduate school).
Speaking of ESL - gee, weren't California, New Mexico, Arizona, parts of Nevada and Utah once Spanish? Didn't the original California Constitution require the state to be bilingual?
MITCHELL: I think it's racist.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I concur, if the newest immigrants had white faces instead of brown ones, the tone of the debate would be totally different. Yes there are immigrants that come here illegally seeking a better life for their families; most of us under similar circumstances would do the same. I am sure most of us here are honest and law abiding; but desperate circumstances can make you do desperate things. I have also noticed that little is said about the US citizens who hire illegal workers and all the venom that surrounds this issue is directed at the immigrants.
There has been some talk about fining the businesses that hire illegal immigrants, but we'll see if that come to some sort of fruition. I do think it is rather funny that when the talk is about Hispanic immigrants, illegal or not, the talk always turns to the language barrier. Where I am from we have a lot of Hispanic and Eastern European immigrants, but I never hear about how the Eastern Eurpopean immigrants don't want to learn our language and are criminals. Hmmm, I wonder if it has anything to do with their skin tone? Just an observation.
Lynn - You weren't supposed to mention that people and companies make use of immigrants to work for them.
They hate it when you remind them about the trouble Wal Mart got into for dealing with a contractor who used "illegal" immigrants..
Boy, that Tip O'Neill link goes a long way with Chris. His panel is a bunch of wild-eyed communist socialistic liberal whale huggers:
Joe Klein - last seen smearing Howard Dean and trashing Social Security. He don't need no stinkin' SS.
Kathleen Parker - see above. Wasn't she the one who conveniently passed along the "they should all be shot" nugget about the Democratic presidential candidates?
Brooks - no comment needed.
Andrea Mitchell - wife of the Fed Chairman, recipient of the hit job of Valerie Plame from Karl Rove.
Wow. Are any of them accountable for the crap they spew?
I don't agree with commentators who lump all immigrants under a blanket statement by saying "they ALL do this" or "they DON'T do that", anymore than I agree with both sides ignoring the problem of ILLEGAL immigration.
You could start reducing the flow tomorrow if there were no jobs to be had here. This should start with the US citizens who break the law by hiring undocumented workers. They want cheap labor, if they would pay livable wages maybe they could get more Americans to take some of these jobs.
Conservative commentators seem to have a nasty habit of lumping. They are the ones all the networks seem to have on anymore..
Shades of Bill Bennett...
It is a well known fact that the older you are, the more difficult it is to learn a new language.
I see people that speak English with foreign language accents EVERY DAY. That alone is proof that a large number of immigrants illegal or legal are learning English.
Also when have anybody ever seen a son or daughter of an immigrant that didn't know English? If any exist they are extremely rare.
skiploader1111
I did see a documentary a long time ago about the illegal immgrants that lived in New York's Chinatown. Parents were so afraid of being discovered and deported that they did not let the kids venture out of the community and they actually taught the kids themselves so of course they were taught in the only language the parents knew. These people were extremely exploited and isolated from the protection of the larger society. I don't know if these practices still exist today; but they too came to the US under desparate circumstances and did what they had to do not to be discovered and deported.
The part of this discussion that I find most interesting is this phrase "Culture of Criminality." The only basis for that claim is that many immigrants are coming here illegally. It take more than one thing to create a culture. Yes, illegal immigrants are breaking the law, but a culture of criminality sounds like the dominant form of financial gain for these folks is drug dealing and theft, as well as an utter disregard for the right of others, plus a bit of violent tendancies... A far cry from the reality of migrant farm workers who are looking for a better life for themselves and their children!
Yes, illegal immigration is an important issue that needs to be addressed, but not by demonizing the people who come here looking for the American dream.
I don't remember any historical accounts of the first settlers and subsequent waves of immigrants making any great strides to learn any of the languages of the indiginous people
I'm just curious if these panelists have a problem with an immigrant being elected Governor of California, and whether or not they supported his run.
Many of the same Republicans screaming about illegal immigration from Mexico also want to do away with the Constitutional Law that requires the President to be a native born US citizen in order for Schwarzenegger to run.
They also did not seem to have a problem with a German (Heinz "Henry" Kissinger) running US foreign policy for decades, or how strong his German accent was.
Like other people have pointed out, this is more about ethno-centrism and racism than it is about helping America be strong. These people have no problem at all with immigrants like Arnold Schwarzenneger. They don't worry about how well HE speaks the English language.
Gov. Schwartzenegger and Mr. Kissenger both came here legally. Saying this is about race clouds the issue.
There is some question as to the legality of Arnold's entry into the US!
How do two white western Europeans having leagal entry to this country many years ago do away with the presence of racism in immigration for Mexicans tofday? Please explain the enormous leap in logic.
Georgia Boy
The facts are that our immigration laws are being violated and neither party seems to want to take steps to address real concerns and needs on both sides of the border. There is propbably a reasonable solution here, but its not going to happen if people are called racist and bigoted just by bringing up the topic.
You are right, calling people racists and bigots for simply bringing up the topic of illegal immigration is wrong, and does nothing to address the very real problems that surround the issue.
However, when the specific topic under discussion is the primarily non-white immigrants and people say things like the immigrants have a "culture of criminality," it does indeed sound like they are being racist.
You are bringing the color into this by suggesting it involves only "non-whites", this topic has nothing to do with that.
Stick to the subject at hand.
The subject is Illegal Immigrants. Not what color they are. Too many forget that important distinction.
My point is why aren't people as concern with the people that hire the illegal workers, now that's the real culture of criminality and corruption.
Thank you! My point, that I clearly didn't explain well was the idea that the one illegal act equalled a "culture of criminality." I don't believe it does. Was Rosa Parks bringing a "culture of criminality" when she refused to move to the back of the bus? No, but she was breaking the law. Now, I am not saying that illegal immigration is an act of civil disobediance, but there is a difference in someone who is looking for a better life and a street thug.
This phrase was bandied about in the context of non-white immigration, rather than in the context of the widescale illegal corporate hiring of these folks. Making profits at all costs, regardless of the law, is what leads to a "culture of criminality." Maybe if no one hired them, they wouldn't come here.
I agree that bringing race into the issue makes it harder to discuss and solve, but honestly, I don't believe that I'm the one who played the race card. Parker specifically clarified that they were discussing hispanics and made a big deal about language (never mind that 23% of our population is functionally illterate [link to indian-river.fl.us] Brooks was the one who made the "culture of criminality" comment, which I discussed above.
The dis-likes of right wing conservative white racists like David Brooks, Kathleen Parker, AND Chris Matthews, are ALL showing not only their racist mentality, but their white supremacist sentiments, and their collective psychological dysfunctions.
As Dr. Farcis Wellsing, a respected African-American female Psychologist and Psychology Professor at Howard University, a regular recurring guest of "The Black Eagle" Joe Madison, a respected African-American talk radio host at WOL-AM 1450 in Washington D.C., which is also heard on XM Satellite Radio under the heading XM 169/THE POWER, has stated many times that white supremacy is a mental disorder, and clearly BOTH Brooks and Parker are 2 right wing conservative racist examples of how serious that disorder is.
The concept of white supremacy is regarded as a conservative "value" by ALL of the conservative Republicans, not just white conservatives, but also by black conservatives also.
That is a riot. If you want to talk about a "culture of criminality" I can think of no better place to begin than the current Republican administration. Whether we talk about Abrams, Poindexter and Reich, the sundry criminal acts perpetrated in the name of "freedom" on behalf of the American people, treason, or the Republican crime wave now washing over the country I can think of no better an example of the "culture of criminality" than the elephant boys (and girls). Nothin' like good ol' racism to deflect consideration of the real issues.
Sadly, Matthews, Parker, Brooks, and Dobbs find it rather easy to smear Hispanics, because they do not have a voice. If we follow their refrain, lets talk about the Irias, Eastern Europeans, the Italians and the Jews. Does entering this country with the appropriate equate to "coming here with a culture of criminality?" Take a look around you at the Delays, the Lays, Abrahamoffs, Frists, Bushs', Blounts, Neys, and the list goes on. On this premise, did these guys inherit a culture of criminality? Matthews et al, are nothing but pur, unadulterated racists, and will feel very welcome in the bowels of the Klan!