Boortz: Columbine High School shouldn't have offered counseling after shootings
Nationally syndicated radio host Neal Boortz said schools should never provide psychological counseling for students, even after a traumatic incident such as the 1999 Columbine High School shootings in Colorado, because providing counseling "is just all part of an effort to ... engrain in the American people this idea that the government is responsible for everything."
On the May 9 edition of his nationally syndicated radio program, Neal Boortz said schools should never provide psychological counseling for students, even after a traumatic incident such as the 1999 Columbine High School shootings in Colorado, because providing counseling "is all part of an effort to ... engrain in the American people this idea that the government is responsible for everything." When asked by producer Belinda Skelton if counseling should have been provided after the Columbine shootings, Boortz replied: "No, I don't think they should've brought in counselors. ... [I]t's not hard to understand. Somebody came in with a gun, shot some people, and they died." Boortz added that government-sponsored counseling is "merely another aspect of the government reaching out with these gnarly tentacles and gathering us all in to make us wards of the state instead of free, individual human beings."
From the May 9 edition of The Neal Boortz Show:
BOORTZ: Some kid gets in a car accident, and then counselors will be available at the school. Don't you understand that that is just all part of an effort to make -- to engrain in the American people this idea that the government is responsible for everything, even making you feel better after a friend gets killed in an automobile accident?
SKELTON: I mean, what do you think therapy is? All they do is let the kids talk about their feelings
BOORTZ: Let them talk in class. They don't need a counselor there. It's make-work stuff.
SKELTON: No, teachers aren't trained to handle this type of thing.
BOORTZ: The kids are trained to talk. If it's all about letting the kid talk, let them talk. I don't know how, you know -- when I was going through school, I had friends that were killed in automobile accidents.
SKELTON: So did I.
BOORTZ: I had a friend that died of leukemia. Never once, never once did they run a bunch of damn counselors into the school the next day to assist me in getting my feelings out about this issue.
SKELTON: OK, I'm going to ask you a question, just a simple yes or no.
BOORTZ: Yeah.
SKELTON: Do you think several years ago in Columbine that they should have brought in counselors?
BOORTZ: No!
SKELTON: Oh, good God!
[...]
BOORTZ: No, I don't think they should've brought in counselors.
SKELTON: You don't think --
BOORTZ: No!
SKELTON: Two students who were ...
BOORTZ: Belinda, it's not hard to understand. Somebody came in with a gun, shot some people, and they died.
[...]
BOORTZ: Where would we be today if all adults in this country had grown up with this assumption that was created during their school years, that every time something happened in their life that caused the least bit of unease, unrest, anxiety, or tension, or stress, that the government was going to be there with them, or for them with a counselor?
[...]
BOORTZ: You don't have the government providing psychological counseling to our children in government-operated schools. You don't do it. If the parents determine that their kid needs psychological counseling -- and it's a damn pity my parents didn't recognize the need. If the parents determine their kid needs psychological counseling, then it's up to the parent to do it, not the government. It is merely -- Belinda, it is merely another aspect of the government reaching out with these gnarly tentacles and gathering us all in to make us wards of the state instead of free, individual human beings. You're upset? You're stressed? Something happened bad in your life? Well, your government is here with a counselor for you.
The other right-wing media mogul you should worry about
Palin's book and Obama's bow: a media week to forget
Media Matters: The Palin chronicles
And look how well-adjusted you turned out to be.
You stole my thunder. I was thinking the exact same thing. This man is mistakenly going on the assumption that he turned out ok. What an absolute moron. As a clinical psychologist I can gurantee that this man has absolutely no idea about how the human mind works. I see mature sucessful grown ups on a daily basis that have been tremendously impacted by events that are relatively speaking, much less traumatic than Colombine.
How in the world is watching your friend die of leukemia, which keep in mind is a long drawn out process, anything relatable to watching your friend get shot in the face with a shot gun by a KID in a trench coat at your own school?! High school is supposed to be a place where kids can feel safe. It's their home away from home. It's horrific actions like those at Columbine that cause young people to develope psychological disorders. Bipolar/schitzophrenia has a much better chance of developing and affecting an individual who went through such a traumatic experience. People, especially teens, don't have a hard time understanding physical actions, ie. the act of shooting in a highschool, it is the reasoning behind it that the kids will have trouble understanding. Everyone has a hard time understanding the reasoning, but teens can not just accept events for what they are. They need to have an understanding of why an event such as this took place. To think that a counselor would not be effective in alleviating the stress surrounding such thought is absolutely absurd.
His point was not about understanding the human mind, nor to debate the relevancy for needing counseling, but rather to address WHERE the counseling comes from.
Hwas simply saying that it should be a function of the PARENTS, rather than the goverment schools providing the counseling.
Maybe if Boortz had counselers at his school he'd have a more realistic perspective than he does now. People who think government is evil fail to comprehend that it is an extension of the public. It not only represents us it IS us. To constantly bemoan the government is a slap in the face of every thing that is good about America. As Clinton said, "you can't say you love your country but hate your government." Jesus, the misdirected animosity Boortz spews is not helpful. Government is only evil if evil people are running it. Our system of governance prevents that as long as the populace participates. Boortz does not participate. He fails to realize if our government fails it's because people like him have failed. Talk about personal responsibility and then blame the government for societies failures. What a traitor.
If my child had just seen 12 of his fellow students killed in front of him, I would welcome any grief counseling the school had to offer, and I would not make some stupid outlandish assumption that it was part of a secret government plot to brainwash our kids.
Boortz obviously is a man without compassion, understanding, or intellect.
Normally I just laugh when a conservative bobblehead says something stupid, but this one really upsets me.
most schools have guidance counselors already on staff. this person should be able to assist those that want to discuss it, if the counselor cannot or there are more students in real need than that person can handle, then that should be looked at and possibly additional counselors could be brought in at that point.
When there's two kids running around the entire school planting bombs, throwing molotov cocktails and killing or wounding or 34 students, I think that would pretty much traumatize the entire student body.
kudos to me for an extra 'or'
his point wasn't that the students would or would not be traumatized. his point went to the need for govt. counselors as opposed to the parent's opting for counseling on their own, if they felt it necessary. some may need it, other's may not. being "traumatized" as you put it doesn't always require psycholigical intervention.
Right On, I am puzzled by this fear of government helping people when they need it. I agree that we should be weary of too much government intervention but all it takes to keep it in check is participation. Government has a purpose.
EVERYONE!!!!!
Leaving it up to the parents to provide this help is wrong. Some wouldn't allow their kids to get help because they wouldn't want to admit that there is a problem. It should not be an option. You might say that you or yours would be fine after an incident such as the one at Columbine. But, unless you've been in a traumatic environment, you can't and shouldn't agree with what Boortz is saying. He seems to be of the mind that tough people don't need counseling and it's a sign of weakness to seek such help.
If the only thing that troubled him in his youth was the death of one friend from cancer, then he has lived a charmed life.
with this administration Boortz might be right...a working example was Katrina...it turned out it really was 'everyman for himself'. we can see how well that worked out.
I never understand these anti-gov zealots like Boortz. I think he should not have to pay taxes. Really. The only catch is that he can not benefit from any tax funded government services or infrastructure. Maybe he can build his own electrical grid, water and sewage system, build his own roads to get to work, create his own internet, create his own court system, etc. Good luck getting a drivers license or God forbid he gets sick cause as a "non-tax payer" he would be denied any drug that received R&D money from the government. Yeah, the "tentacles" of the government are ALWAYS bad, right?
If the parents are responsible for determining if their children need counseling, then aren't parents then responsible for teaching their children their religion as opposed to some government beaurocrat?
I have never had a school counselor I felt I could ever take my problems to except maybe career counseling. I am sure not all school counselors are inept but to tell the truth they are the last in that field that I would want my son to go to with his problems.
School counselors don't specialize in grief counseling and would refer them to someone who is.
.. they provided counselors that specialized in grief and emotional trauma injuries to the students if they WANTed to see them. These specialized counselors are also made available to first response workers - police, firefighters, and EMS, etc. Whenever there are tragedies like the Columbine incident and of course 911, the GOVERMENT will make sure that these services are available to the cirizens.
...about him saying that schools already have counselors who should take care of it first. I totally agree that those kids should have gotten all the help they needed. I am saying that a school guidence counselor wasn't the appropriate person to handle the situation (heck, he or she probably needed some counseling after that too).
I might be biased because my friend is a school social worker, but she is a well educated, licensed professional. Perhaps you should get to know the school's counselors a bit better. It is always better for your children to have another ally at school and someone who might be able to provide you with help should you need some for your child. Just a thought.
Then that school is lucky to have her. I haven't seen many that are up to the job. I am not sure of the qualifications you need to be a school counselor but it seems many of them (in my experience) are glorified placement agents. Even the good ones certainly would not be able to manage a crisis this size and they are not long-term therapists. Some of these kids will need therapy for years.
...Pask13
guidance counselors are not trained to do the in depth pscyhological counselling for grief and trauma, or recognize early symptoms of Post Traumatic Stress disorder. Thats like asking a midwife to do brain surgery
not all parent's have access to councelors. It benefits society as a whole and infringes on no one's rights if councelors are made available to students. The students don't have to go to the councelors if they don't want to. How any one can have a problem with this topic astounds me.
Just be confident that a world of Right On's imagination will never come to fuition, no country would ever be that indifferent to the needs of it's citizens, the citizens wouldn't allow it. The overhelming outrage over Katrina is a testament to that.
Jpark, so are most parents.
I agree with that also, unfortunately.
"his point wasn't that the students would or would not be traumatized . . ."
- That was EXACTLY his point when he said, "Belinda, its not hard to understand. Somebody came in with a gun, shot some people, and they died," as though he were writing an english grammar assignment on the board.
"his point went to the need for gov't counselors as opposed to the parent's opting for counseling on their own . . ."
- Private counseling is expensive; not every parent necessarily has the resources for this. I can't imagine a parent not welcoming these resources being provided for their children after such an event.
"being 'traumatized' as you put it doesn't always require psychological intervention."
- Perhaps not - but this is not yours or Boorish's decision to make. Its up to the school district and parents, and apparently THEY felt it was.
My question to you is this: if you and Neil Boor don't feel its the responsibility of the government - through the school district or any other agency - to provide services for the citizenry from which they draw their authority and existance, then exactly WHAT should the government provide . . . other than tax breaks for corporations and the wealthy or funds for illegal wars, I mean?
after listening to the Nails Bore show...
This jerk must love the idea that so many US military veterans are homeless and drug addicted...they certainly didn't need counseling either. Or the veterans returning from Iraq and Afganistan.
Why have the Post Office deliver the mail. Why have government schools at all? Why have a government police force? Why don't we save our tax dollars and just hire a private cop when we need one ?
Say - isn't that what they are trying in Iraq?
Post traumatic stress disoder can be very deblitating. I usually think of the soldiers in Iraq in a constant state of tension waiting for the next car or bump in the road to explode. Scientists now know that constant stress will change the brain, horrific scenes can be played over and over again and create something along the lines of a well worn foot path in the brain that leads to anxiety and a host of other symptoms. Victims of PTSD have extremely high rates of alcohol and drug abuse. Think of all the Vietnam Vets. Drugs work great at alleaving the short term symptoms, like flashbacks, nightmares and anxtiety. Long term not such a great remedy. Simply having a list of symptoms to expect after experiencing something like Columbine can be very helpful.
When it was called "Shell Shock" after WWI and WWII it sounded like a combat injury (unless one is Gen. Patton, of course). Somehow the modern term doesn't quite have the same ring to it.
On the other hand, there were a large number of WWI and WWII veterans who would have benefited from counseling who never got it...
Does anyone else read "Doonesbury" and see what BD is going through? Personally, I find it quite insightful.
“Think of all the Vietnam Vets.” I’m in that group and I’d like to point out not all suffer from PTSD. I’m also guessing you didn’t literally mean all do, but just used a turn of phrase.
On the other hand, the Vet Center system was created because of the troubles many Vietnam Vets were having in the world and the PTSD staff at the V.A. have quite a few patients, and many more on the way.
To the topic, Boortz is one of those knuckleheads who thinks being an insensitive jerk (wish I could use more appropriate langauge) equals manliness. Obviously, he didn’t have good role models growing up and relied on Rambo for his guidance.
hey right on, again your ignorance is showing. how many times have i heard, musings from the right based on such uninformed opinion. listen bozo, pardon the epethet but this is maddening, ptsd is one of the most debilitating and insidious mental illnesses. by defition, its onset can and usually does appear in virtually all cases of witnessing or participating in a traumatic event within a six month period of that event. the earlier it is recognized and treated the more likely it is to be successfully treated. these "counselors " are trained to '" screen" for ptsd, so that it can be addressed asap. most serious lifelong mental illnesses show their initial symptoms between 18 and 21, vulnerable adolescents can easily enter a lifelong psychotic state as a result of these traumatic events.ever see what a lifelong treatment for mental illness costs., not including, loss of humanity and productivity. that would be hundreds of thousands ,of in most cases " government " money.estimates range from 60 -70 % of columbine students, have or continue to receive mental health treatment. stick to your belicosity and rancor, us libs will take care of treatment, you anal retentive hobbit.
You are a testament to the right-wing cause!!
No doubt, there are a few counselors not worth a damn, both in private and government funded........(when I say government....I mean local and/or state.....as lately...the federal level is to inept and pathetic to be of much use!!)
But all in all, the vast majority of school counselors at least are willing to offer a shoulder to lean on!
Lynn is right when she said "they provided counselors that specialized in grief and emotional trauma injuries to the students if they WANTed to see them. These specialized counselors are also made available to first response workers - police, firefighters, and EMS, etc. Whenever there are tragedies like the Columbine incident and of course 911, the GOVERMENT will make sure that these services are available to the cirizens."
Will that make it all better? No, of course not. But for at least a short while the kid has a chance to think it through and not do anything rash!
These counselors are there to help start the initial healing, thats it! Its up to you/us as parents to finish the healing process!!
Why is this so hard to comprehend?
Do you all remeber the school bus in Fox River Grove, IL back about 8 years ago or so that was hit by the train doing 60mph.....something like 10 kids died that day?
My cousin went to the same school those kids did, knew most of them, and was gratful that the school counselors were there to at least offer some guidance........my aunt did a fine job finishing what the publicly paid counselors started!!
When people like Boortz and zombie followers like you RIGHT ON and JPARK say that government intervention is a bad thing.........STOP!
It only hurts our country!!!
I think I must not have been clear in my post. I absolutely disagree with Right On.
Sorry about that........
After re-reading your post.....I realize that I misread it a bit.......
However, I will say that the part where you said "I have never had a school counselor I felt I could ever take my problems to except maybe career counseling. I am sure not all school counselors are inept but to tell the truth they are the last in that field that I would want my son to go to with his problems."
It is the line in bold that I saw that made me think the worst........
I failed to read on to your next post directed to LYNN about RIGHT ON.........
For this I'm sorry........I made a mistake and am willing to admit it!! Something certain others in here and in DC are unwilling and /or unable to do!!
What a turkey!! Wouldn't a private school bring in counselors? Why shouldn't a public school?
IDIOT!!!
Remember the classic SNL skit with Buck Henry as the host of a radio call-in show?
Nobody calls about federally funded municipal bonds, nobody calls about school bussing, nobody calls about whether Russian soldiers are going to invade, and nobody calls about dead puppies.
I think we're seeing signs that right-wing hotheads are losing their audiences. They're making wilder and wilder claims, they're ranging farther for material, and they must be realizing that anything they say about the present is not being received well. Why else would they be grabbing stuff from the past?
Next up: the McKinley assasination conspiricy buffs, and I bet we start refighting the flouridated water war any day now.
What Neal Boortz is suggesting that students affected by scenarios of Extreme Trauma or Distress should "be a mensch" for the Greater Glory of Americanism and the Defence of American Soverignty and Values.
And that, by accepting any sort of counselling of therapeusis for ensuing emotional trauma, such is only risking "developing Socialistic or otherwise un-American tendencies."
In other words, Mr. Boortz doesn't exactly care if those affected by Columbine-stylee scenarios wind up becoming inebriates, dope fiends, sex addicts or otherwise become "chronically and habitually dependent" upon the State by way of disability benefits.
Or, for that matter, carry out scenarios of mayhem and carnage (a/k/a "going postal") and plead insanity to avoid Serious Charges as may carry the death penalty.
Much the same sort of circumstances which afflicted the Children of Hitler, so to speak--byproducts of the Nazis' Lebensborn ("fountain of life") initiative as was aimed @ improving the quality of the so-called "Aryan Master Race" through outright, State-sanctioned displays of sexual promiscuity, in turn expected to carry forward the Nazis' ideal of the Thousand-Year Reich--only to be declared outright bastards, brought up in orphanages and foster care, unable to hold down jobs or stable relationships and resorting to alcoholism and drug abuse just to stay sane, or close to it.
Sounds like an episode of The Whistler there, doesn't it?
No seriously, it was unreal. It's almost hard for me to be enraged about it - it was too preposterous to take seriously.
Back in the 80s, Dana Carvey had a recurring character on SNL called "Grumpy Old Man." Grumpy Old Man's typical rants were generally like:
I don't like the way our culture has become. Back in my day, we didn't have soft cushy mattresses to lie on, all perfectly contoured to ensure a restful night's sleep and an ache-free morning. No! Our parents threw us in a cold, dark room, made entirely of cement, and the only thing to sleep on was a cement slab, with a bag of rocks for a pillow. We were so stiff, sore and bruised in the mornings we could barely eat breakfast. That's the way it was, and WE LIKED IT!
or
Flobbletee flippen youngens today have it way too good! Back in my day, we didn't have ultra-thin condoms that allowed sensation. If we wanted safe sex, we had to catch a rabbit, and skin it alive, and wrap its skin around our nether parts, and we couldn't feel nothin'! That's the way it was, and WE LIKED IT!
For this Boortz twit, it's not light satire. He's actually up there saying,
Back in my day, we didn't have therapists or counselors come in to talk about our feelings when something tragic happened. Just because someone came in and shot all our friends to death in front of our eyes, no government social worker was gonna coddle us, no sir! We were routinely beaten, and thrown in a stockade for nothing more than sneezing, and the teacher would line up the other students to come point and laugh at us while we were locked up. They'd stick a rifle through the air vent in our cell and use us for target practice until the bell rang, and when it did we were sent home bleeding and told that only a putz would cry about it. That's the way it was, and WE LIKED IT!
Boortz ,armed with only a Public High School education,panders to the likewise ! He lied his way out being drafted during the Vietnam War, but now he's one big war-hawk.If you ain't tough enough to fight the enemy barehanded in the morning and attend your mothers funeral in the early afternoon,then get married in the evening ,you don't fit in the World of Boortzo,no crybabies allowed ! But step on Boortzs' delicate toes and he'll come down on you like nothing you've ever experienced in your life.If you took away all of Boortz toys away from him ,put him on the street with the clothes on his back,and allowed him only to make minimum wage, he'd be at a Church crying his eyes out the next morning ,whinning for a handout! He,and the rest of his talkshow bufoons are nothing but windbags as they offer society nothing!
Boortz goes right in and assumes 1)The counseling was mandatory and 2) the parents didn't ask for iit.
This hatred of government is especially idiotic at the local level, when, really, the people ARE the government. Columbine parents were on the Columbine School Board, Columbine parents were in all parts of the local government.The COMMUNITY can decide what the COMMUNITY wants to provide. But Boortz thinks conservative 'Gummint Bad' principles are more important than kids.
I'd have liked to see Neal Boortz stand up at a Columbine meeting post-massacre and argue against 'government making us wards of the state.'
But of course, Boortz probably would and wouldn't even be aware of the looks he'd get.
There's a word for Boortz--but Media Matters won't let me post it.
"...that every time something happened in their life that caused the least bit of unease, unrest, anxiety, or tension, or stress, that the government was going to be there with them, or for them with a counselor?" So I can't tell, would he be for the use of counselors after an event like 9/11? I mean if I were a teen, I wouldn't be looking to the government for counseling when my girlfriend broke up with me, but after a massive tragedy such as Columbine or 9/11, I would EXPECT the government to at least offer some kind of services for all aspects of help.
Apparently Mr. Boortz doesn't want the government teaching our children about religion.
"If the parents determine their kid needs psychological counseling, then it's up to the parent to do it, not the government."
He can substitute "religion" for "psychological counseling" and he makes the point of all those opposed to teaching religion in public schools. Thanks Neil and welcome to our side.
I totally agree with Neal.
It should NOT be the responsibility of school systems (ie governmently run school systems) to provide for such a delicate, PERSONAL matter such as psycological counseling.
It should, rather, be up to the PARENTS to decide what, when, how and where the child should be counseled.