Severin on abused prisoners at Abu Ghraib: "[W]e treated them essentially to a week in Las Vegas"
On MSNBC's Imus in the Morning, nationally syndicated talk-radio host Jay Severin criticized President Bush for calling the Abu Ghraib prisoner-abuse scandal "a mistake," stating: "[W]e took terror prisoners, and we treated them essentially to a week in Las Vegas. I have to pay good money to have that done to me."
During an interview on the May 31 edition of MSNBC's Imus in the Morning, nationally syndicated talk-radio host Jay Severin criticized President Bush for calling the Abu Ghraib prisoner-abuse scandal "a mistake," stating: "[W]e took terror prisoners, and we treated them essentially to a week in Las Vegas. I have to pay good money to have that done to me." Severin added of Abu Ghraib: "I didn't see anything that equates with torture being done in Abu Ghraib. ... [E]xplain to me what it is that was so terrible at Abu Ghraib, but the facts don't matter anymore, you know, they walked around naked. Big deal." Severin also stated that Mexican immigration to the United States is an "invasion" from a "joke country," adding: "[L]et's also take advantage of their expertise on those other things for which they're so well known. Let's help ourselves. Let's ask them about drinking water, diarrhea, food, clothing, music, language, education, culture. We have so much to learn from them, if, of course, you live in Bangladesh."
Additionally, Severin chastised Bush for calling his "dead or alive" statement about Osama bin Laden "a mistake." Severin called on Bush to "be a man. You're the commander in chief, not the fruit in chief. Don't apologize to people for speaking tough in a time of war." Imus responded: "Boy, you're right about that." Later in the show, Severin appeared to echo Imus's characterization of Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-NY) as "Satan." Severin also called former Vice President Al Gore "the biggest loser on the face of the earth."
Later, after being asked why he initially supported the U.S. invasion of Iraq, Severin falsely claimed that all Democratic presidential candidates supported the war: "There isn't anybody who ran for the Democrats, I don't believe, certainly not including their nominee, who didn't believe that going in [to Iraq] -- going in -- was the right idea." In fact, several Democratic presidential candidates, including Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-OH), Rev. Al Sharpton, and former Sen. Carol Mosley Braun (IL), opposed the war, and former Vermont Gov. Howard Dean disagreed with the resolution giving the president authority to go to war.
Severin, whose radio show is syndicated by Westwood One, is also a contributor to MSNBC's The Situation with Tucker Carlson and a former Republican political consultant who worked for the presidential campaigns of George H.W. Bush and Pat Buchanan. As Media Matters for America has noted, Severin has a history of controversial comments, including a suggestion he made on April 5, 2004, about how to deal with Muslims in the United States: "I think we should kill them."
From the May 31 edition MSNBC's Imus in the Morning:
SEVERIN: Did they ask him if he's made mistakes? OK. Last week, "Did you make mistakes?" He's with [British Prime Minister Tony] Blair. One mistake. "Yeah. Abu Ghraib." OK, there's a good one. We took terror prisoners, that's a big mistake.
IMUS: When he can't even pronounce the place, he made the mistake.
SEVERIN: That's a big mistake. We took terror prisoners, and we treated them essentially to a week in Las Vegas. I have to pay good money to have that done to me. I didn't see anything that equates with torture being done in Abu Ghraib, but it became a self-fulfilling prophecy. The template right now of the media in this country and around the world is, this Marine massacre, if it occurred, is the worst thing that's happened since Abu Ghraib. Someone still explain to me what it is that was so terrible at Abu Ghraib, but the facts don't matter anymore, you know, they walked around naked. Big deal. The other mistake to which the president admitted was "talking tough." He was essentially begging [TV talk-show hosts] Oprah [Winfrey] and Doctor Phil [McGraw] to forgive him for speaking like a man because he said "wanted dead or alive." I mean, you know, be a man. You're the commander in chief, not the fruit in chief. Don't apologize to people for speaking tough in a time of war. This guy is clueless.
IMUS: Twenty-three till the hour. Boy, you're right about that.
[...]
IMUS: I think he [New York Times columnist Frank Rich] suggested that the Democrats should consider Al Go-- [laughing] -- I can't even say it -- Al Gore for '08.
SEVERIN: It's great. It's too much to hope for. I agree. They give up on Satan, they stop Satan worship, and they say, "OK, let's look for the remedy. We got it. The biggest loser on the face of the earth." This will be great.
IMUS: That's what I thought.
SEVERIN: I mean, there is a God if this guy runs. Global warming? They should stick it in his pants, global warming. Let it start with him. Let him warm up a bit.
[...]
SEVERIN: What we've got here is not immigration, we've got invasion. As a matter of fact, [Mexican] President [Vicente] Fox is, I believe, is going to give his victory speech this morning. You'll probably be breaking away to carry that live. So here we are proposing to consult -- the United States of America is now proposing to consult a foreign country -- in this case, a joke government from a joke country -- about whether or not and under what conditions we can protect our borders. And I say, let's also take advantage of their expertise on those other things for which they're so well known. Let's help ourselves. Let's ask them about drinking water, diarrhea, food, clothing, music, language, education, culture. We have so much to learn from them, if, of course, you live in Bangladesh.
[...]
SEVERIN: There isn't anybody who ran for the Democrats, I don't believe, certainly not including their nominee, who didn't believe that going in [to Iraq] -- going in -- was the right idea.
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I don't really know what's gone down at Abu Ghraib... but, there are enough reports, suspicions, etc that a true investigation should be done...
For these guys to spout "I didn't see anything...blah, blah, blah". Come on. This is pure conjecture. Nonsense.
Then again... technically, he isn't lying. I guess,technically, he DIDN'T see any torture at AG. What a joke.
I think we can narrow down who "Finallyinsf" is. One of those two guys.
"I didn't see anything that equates with torture being done in Abu Ghraib"
Don't think he was on an investigation team looking for evidence of torture. What you don't know and don't see can't hurt you. But the pictures released in the past 2 years shows plenty. Just because naked HUMAN PYRAMIDS were not being constructed in front of his face while he visited doesn't mean it didn't happen.
Sounds like a good reason to start up a collection to send Jay to Las Vegas and have him treated like the AG prisoners.
I'll personally pay for him to be hog-tied and smeared with his own feces.
Who else is in?
I'll throw in some blindfolds, vicious barking dogs, a camera, and some electrodes for his fingers.
Maybe if we're lucky, we can find some smiling soldiers giving the 'thumbs up' to complete the package.
guy on guy naked pyrimid.
You can't include that one. It is very much the norm in SF. So, if you consider that torture then you need to make much of what happens in SF illegal. The aclu would sue the pants off of you (AG joke) if you tried to inhibit the acts of those living in SF.
Not only do we look the other way while prisoners are abused in our names, but we make snarky little gay bashing jokes about it.
Were there prisoner abuses during vietnam? Did those doing them get punished? Did any prisoner abuses happen by the hands of the vc? Did any of them get punished for their acts?
Since when is the US the only country to be held accountable by international tribunals?? I'll bet you can come up with a list as long as your arm with every abuse the US has done to prisoners in Iraq and every other war in our history.
Now, let's put that in perspective with what you just complained about. How many gays do just that very act? Why do you suddenly consider it "abuse" when it happens somewhere other than SF? Gays are abusing themselves and it is considered a "right", when compared to "abuses" of POW's it certainly doesn't seem to be a vial as you make it out to be. I certainly wish that was all that was done to our troops and civilians by Bin laden's troops. Does Bin laden even HAVE prison camps to store our captured troops in? Ever ask why?
And we hold ourselves to a higher standard that we do our enemies. Atrocities are committed in every war. And they should be prosecuted every time.
Spare me the history lesson, whenever our troops are involved in an incident like this it is a black mark against everyone who ever put on a uniform for this country.
You're confusing consensual acts between adults to war crimes. What any adult chooses to do in this country that harms no one else does me no harm. When someone wearing the uniform of the US Military commits an act of abuse it does me harm and it harms this nation.
ourselves to a higher standard. That is why there was an investigation and punishment dealt.
Name me some torture trials radical muslims have held for cutting off the heads of people.
These things happen in any war. What gets old is people like you keep whining about Abu Ghraib like it was the holecaust.
The administration has brought on this outrage by not conducting decent investigations into the matter.
When an honest and thorough investigation can be concluded, speculation will be greatly reduced. Until then, you will have to learn to deal with all of the speculation I am affraid.
Actions (and in this case inactions) have consequences.
The idea that our enemies torture our prisoners, or that the US has tortured individuals in the past, does not suddenly give us the right to torture anyone. Every incident of torture IN THE PAST should be looked at with scorn. This is the exact reason we list these incidents in history books, so that we DON'T REPEAT THEM, simply because it is not a just policy. The US and its citizens feel that the United States is above all of these countries we have issues with, the US feels it has the obligation to make these countries BETTER, more like us. The over all consensus among civilized nations, and any rational person can tell you, torture is wrong. We as a nation should be setting the HIGHEST of examples when dealing with any military situation, considering the fact that we have the most powerful, sofisticated, and expensive military ever known to man kind. Torturing POW's or possible terrorists is wrong.
So I suppose that straight woman who are raped or sexually assaulted in some fashion by a man should just shut up about it because they engage in heterosexual sex anyway so what is the big deal if they are sexually assaulted by a man against their will. I guess you don’t think there should be laws against sexual assault because…hey they do it anyway what is the big deal. How you can rationalize a sexual assault on someone by saying…well what is the big deal people consent to sex all the time… is truly idiotic. Gay bash all you want…it only makes you look like a bigoted fool but try and dig down deep for what is left of your civilized humanity and realize sexual assault is a crime and is to be abhorred no matter the sex or sexuality of the individuals perpetrating the crime or the victim.
Thanks for reminding me again why I miss your posts so much! WHAM! Both barrels!
You sincerely rock.
P.S. You know it takes a lot to get both caps AND exclamation points from me. Sorry. Maybe too much coffee lately.
when I am annoying you when I pull one of my “dog with a bone” tirades…obviously some of you have forgotten in my absence how truly annoying I can be at times when I get stuck on an idea (-: By the way that was only one barrel…I had to delete most of what came out of the second barrel as not appropriate for posting on a public forum (-;
"Gays are abusing themselves and it is considered a "right", when compared to "abuses" of POW's"
Please tell me this is a troll? I cannot accept that a grown adult would draw such a conclusion.
Now, I know logic and common sense are fairly foreign to some, but lets play along. I have a right to hit myself. I have the right to submit to someone else and have them hit me.
The second you walk up and hit me without my permission, there is a problem.
Are you truly unable to distinguish the difference (ala Rush and fraternities)? If you are being a troll, fine, troll away. That is far easier for me to grasp as opposed to just accepting that some people actually 'think' in this fasion.
Sounds good to me. I'll bring a camera so we can take some candids of electrodes being hooked up to his genitals. I'm especially looking forward to seeing Severin, Limbaugh and all the rest of the AG and "Club Gitmo" apologists all trussed up in one big sweaty smelly pyramid of some good ol' fashioned prison love. We'll leave the hoods off this time, though.
"Squeal like pig for me, boy!"
Let's show Limbaugh what a real 'fraternity prank' is.
... stays in Abu Ghraid.
There's a satirical song about the torturing with that very line. Self-fulfilling prophecy, indeed.
[link to www.jihadjerry.com]
Its disturbing that frequently it comes down to a matter of will or toughness for right wingers. What was the quote "fruit in chief". These are the same people who think we lost Vietnam bc of the anti-war movement or that the country didnt have enough backbone. Lets enrage the population when there is 25 million of them and 150,000 of us. It doesnt matter what this paper tiger spouts, AG was Zarqawi's wet dream, a turning point much more so than elections. Ignorance of the highest magnitude, Machiavelli these men are not.
If your point is that Abu Ghraib was way overblown I will agree with you. It is one of the most over reported war stories of all-time.
But there was criminal activity done and the guilty went to trial and punished. So if you were smart Severin, you would find a different way to make your point.
went to trial? Abu Graib must have been the first Military Prison to be Run by Non-Coms, since no Officers were Court Martialed.
Similar things were done at Abu Gharib and GITMO. I find it hard to believe that enlisted personnel at two different installations came up with the same tactics. There were civilian intelligence personnel at both prisons participating in the abuses. As far as I know, none of them have been charged. We didn't get the whole story and once again, the enlisted men and women are the only ones who have paid for these atrocities.
Jeffrey Miller commanded the prison at Gitmo and then went to Abu Ghraib. This is from an article in Wikipedia.
Seymour Hirsh explains how Abu Ghraib happened in a great article on the subject.
That's Geoffrey Miller. Not Jeffrey. My bad.
I take it you don't follow the news? If you can't tell the truth on this simple issue, you can't be trusted to tell the truth on more complicated issues.
The Army demoted Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, whose Army Reserve unit was in charge of the prison compound during the period of abuse. Dropping her in rank to colonel.
The Army also said that one colonel and two lieutenant colonels linked to detainee abuses in Iraq and Afghanistan were given unspecified administrative punishment. Also, two other lieutenant colonels were given letters of reprimand.
Three majors were given letters of reprimand and one of the three also was given an unspecified administrative punishment.
Three captains were court-martialed, one captain was given an other-than-honorable discharge from the Army, five captains received letters of reprimand, and one was given an unspecified administrative punishment.
Two first lieutenants were court-martialed, another got a letter of reprimand and one was given administrative punishment.
One second lieutenant was given an other-than-honorable discharge and another was given a letter of reprimand.
Two chief warrant officers were court-martialed.
What were they charged with? Reprimands, reduction in rank, unspecified administrative punishment, letter of reprimand? Who else is doing hard time like the enlisted personnel involved?
The truth? I'm willing to be persuaded that I could be wrong, so are a lot of others on the left. Very few on the right are willing to do anything except parrot the current right wing talking points. It's never those in charge who are wrong, it's always the ones at the bottom of the food chain. For some on the right, just discussing these incidents is considered "treasonous".
I just want more openness from this administration. I'd also like to see more dialogue. The past 5+ years have been nothing but monologue. If we don't start discussing things rationally we're headed for epilogue.
I highly doubt there were civilians doing anything. You could probably "bet the ranch" they were cia or another group like that. But, even if they were civilians, what authority would the government have over them? Wouldn't the "local" law apply under that circumstance? In which case the Iraqis would be the ones to ask what was done to them.
The civilian contractors who participated and directed some of the abuses were probably CIA or some other US government agency. I've never seen an explanation of why they were there or what they were doing. None were called to testify at any of the trials of the enlisted personnel. It seems to me that the government wanted a quick conclusion and probably had some kind of deal on the table for those charged which offered the people who were convicted lesser terms if they would admit their participation. This allowed the government to deal with the ranking personnel more quietly. This is mostly just my opinion and I could be wrong.
Sure the actual individuals in the photos were put on trial and punished. Why leave it at that?
You make it sound as though this was an isolated incident. This took place in Guantanamo Bay and Abu Grahib. How could the individuals tried and punished influence more individuals in another prison, across the Atlantic?
It is not just a couple of hoodlums bored at their post. The issues stems from the Administrations policy on condoning acts that could be labeled as torture. A policy such as this was implemented by those tried and convicted, but was justified and rationalized by multiple individuals high up in the chain of command. How high? That's a question that needs to answered by a bi-partisan investigation. What about the mutltiple prioners who have been extradited to countried who publicly condone torture? Why take them to these countries, secretly? The government is torturing prisoners. How many, where, when, and who authorized such actions are the questions that need to be answered.
ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!! I mean, why should anyone care about torture or abuse carried out by U.S. personnel? After all, we NEVER TORTURE!! You have Bushs' and Gonzales' word on it!! Just as Gibson said about Haditha, so some people got killed - big deal, the Iraqis have been killing each other for centuries!! Doggone it, let's hear about the good news coming from Iraq!!
Whatever . . .
As for Severin: you dumba$$ . . . why don't you ask Manadel al-Jamadi if he thought Abu Gharib was a week in Vegas - oops, you can't . . . HE DIED THERE
Oh, you mean the guy who bombed a Red Cross office and killed 12 people? I'm sure that in the Red Cross office there was nothing but military targets and he had every right to kill those 12 people. My guess is that the family of those 12 people who were killed by Manadel al-Jamadi may feel a little different than you about how he was treated.
Regardless of what this guy was charged with, it was a criminal act when he died in our jail. Keep excusing torturers. The more excuses you make for this kind of behavior, the less claim we can make to being a nation of laws. We're no better than our enemies if this is acceptable behavior.
What lawful authority or court (military or otherwise) determined that Jamadi was indeed guilty AND required a death sentence (by torture)?
Is it okay to kill suspects (whose innocence or guilt is undetermined) as long as the crime is hideous enough?
"We took terror prisoners, and we treated them essentially to a week in Las Vegas. I have to pay good money to have that done to me. I didn't see anything that equates with torture being done in Abu Ghraib"
Ultimately, NBC management is responsible for the content of what MSNBC produces, especially when misinformation is repeatly reported on the network. Executives include: Bob Wright, Lynn Calpeter, Beth Comstock, Rick Cotton, Dick Ebersol, John Eck, Randy Falco, Jay Ireland, Ron Myer, Anna Perez, Marc Saperstein, Eileen Whelley, Thomas Williams, and Jeff Zucker.
Link: NBC Executives
Hey Severin welcome to Las Vagas. What a party! By the way...stick it in your pants.
... says, "Jay Severin is a life-long current events geek, (and) was active in the 60's era anti-war movement. He is a graduate of Vassar ..."
Severin says, "Be a man. You're Commander in Chief, not fruit in chief."
Well, what have we here. Yet ANOTHER tough-talking chickenhawk, but of the FLIP-FLOP variety. Didn't serve (although this doesn't distinguish him from his fellow Rightwingers), but actively OPPOSED the Viet Nam war. Wow! Was he a "fruit" back then? Not "a MAN"?
Well, he did go to Vassar ... that's a girl's school, isn't it?
And he sees a "weekend in Vegas" in naked man piles. Shades of Jeff Gannon!
The ranks of the Rightwing pundit/propagandist squad is filling up with phonys, wimps, and posers. These loud-mouthed opportunists would wet their pants if faced with any adversity of a personal physical nature. I wonder if Rove/Murdoch actually runs ADS to find these guys ...
WANTED: On-air vocalists able to sustain outrage for 3+ hours a day. Can you talk incessantly about anything? Or nothing? Can you assume a VICTIM posture on any issue in the news? Have you spent your life deflecting blame, accepting NO responsibility for anything, and have perfected insulting others? Then we need YOU! Excellent salary and benefits. No academic degree, or even high school diploma necessary (in fact, it helps if you have invested NO time in higher education). NO military service is a big PLUS. High ethical standards need not apply. GET PAID TO RUN YOUR MOUTH! You do it FOR FREE down at the bar. Turn your natural know-it-all arrogance, bullying machismo, and habit of demeaning others into a CAREER ... in Rightwing Bloviating!
I was going to write a clever deconstruction of Severin's remarks, but why bother? The guy is clearly as dumb as a rock.
I hope the detainees at least got some complimentary shrimp cocktail.
..what happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas.. right? Right?
Only way you could compare Vegas to Abu Ghraib is if you went to Vegas for the sole purpose of losing all your money on S&M dungeons.
....Or, if you were in Vegas because you were a child-murdering filthy terrorist. Then you could go to both places for the same reason.