MSNBC's Holt to Rangel: If troops "come home" before Bush implements his Iraq plan, "is that a defeat?"

During MSNBC's January 10 coverage previewing President Bush's upcoming speech on Iraq, host Lester Holt asked Rep. Charles Rangel (D-NY), chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee, "[I]f the troops come home short of [Bush being] able to go ahead with his new way forward, is that a defeat?" Discussing whether Democrats should "consider[] cutting funding, or reducing funding, or capping the president's ability to add troops," Holt stated that "this is an emotional issue that often gets reduced to labels. Some say Republican supporters of the president's plan [to increase the number of U.S. combat troops in Iraq] are delusional; others say Democrats such as yourself are defeatist." He then asked Rangel: "[D]o you think we have been defeated in Iraq, and if the Army comes home, will they have come home in defeat?"

Rangel responded: "[N]o one even knows what the president's talking about when he says victory ... so how can we describe whether it's a victory or its not?" Holt then followed up: "But, if the troops come home short of [Bush being] able to go ahead with his new way forward, is that a defeat?" Rangel replied, "[T]hat's for history and the American people to decide."

From the January 10, 12 p.m. ET edition of MSNBC Live:

HOLT: Well, Congressman, should Democrats be considering cutting funding, or reducing funding, or capping the president's ability to add troops?

RANGEL: I don't think that decision should be raised or made until such time as the president has answered the questions that Americans want: What is this surge? If it is successful, what will we have accomplished? How long will the surge take? And what is all of this money being used for? You know, one of the things that none of us had in the last few years is that we've never had oversight. We don't have to go cutting programs or capping the troops. He's the commander in chief. But he needs the support of the American people, and he's losing more and more each day and each week.

HOLT: As you know, this is an emotional issue that often gets reduced to labels. Some say Republican supporters of the president's plan are delusional; others say that Democrats such as yourself are defeatist. So let me simply ask you: Do you think we have been defeated in Iraq, and if the Army comes home, will they have come home in defeat?

RANGEL: Well, no one even knows what the president's talking about when he says victory. And, so how can we describe whether it's a victory or it's not when he has no clue as to where this thing is going to end up?

HOLT: But if the troops come home short of him able to go ahead with his new way forward, is that a defeat?

RANGEL: Well, I think that's for history and the American people to decide. When he has 28-percent support for what he 's doing -- I don't know how it can get much lower -- but just asking for additional troops and billions of dollars is not going to make a victory out of what looks like a very bad decision.

HOLT: And let me quickly ask you --

RANGEL: Someone once said, you can put lipstick on the pig, but it is still a pig.

HOLT: And before you go, Congressman, just your reaction, we got that figure just a short while ago, $6.8 billion, you see it on the screen. Sticker shock?

RANGEL: Listen, with this administration, borrowing money is just no big deal. Tax cuts and borrowing money is the legacy we're leaving our children, and it's a shame. We've got to turn it around.

HOLT: Congressman Rangel, always good to speak to you. Thank you, sir, for being with us. Appreciate it.

RANGEL: Thank you.