Limbaugh: "The government's been taking care of [young blacks] their whole lives"
On the February 1 edition of his nationally syndicated radio show, Rush Limbaugh responded to a Reuters report on a University of Chicago study that found that "a majority of young blacks feel alienated form today's government" by asserting: "Why would that be? The government's been taking care of them their whole lives."
From the February 1 edition of The Rush Limbaugh Show:
LIMBAUGH: U.S. blacks -- young U.S. blacks believe in politics, according to a new study. "Many U.S. blacks are as confident" -- and we're talking about the clean ones here, folks, I must stipulate this -- young, clean U.S. blacks -- "believe in politics. Many young U.S. blacks are as confident as their white and Hispanic peers that they can use politics to make things better, but a majority of young blacks feel alienated from today's government." Why would that be? The government's been taking care of them their whole lives. Why would they feel alienated from -- maybe "today's government" means the Bush administration.
" 'There's good news and bad news when it comes to politics,' particularly as U.S. Senator Barack" -- the clean -- "Obama, an Illinois Democrat, may try to become the first black to reach the White House, said Cathy Cohen, a political science professor who headed this project at the University of Chicago." This research, by the way, "covered a wide range of social issues from sex to entertainment, also found that young blacks think that rap music and videos are riddled with too much sex and mistreatment of women -- even though they are the biggest consumers of that entertainment. Nearly 80 percent of young blacks, whites and Hispanics think they can make a difference by getting involved in politics. Large numbers of them feel that they have the skills to do so."
So I got -- the headline says "Young U.S. blacks" -- but blacks, whites, and Hispanics. Everybody thinks they can get involved in politics here. No big -- no big shake there.
Palin, the press, and her "no más" moment
Media Matters: Limbaugh's Off the Wall spin on Michael Jackson's death
Howard Kurtz's wasted opportunity
Racist Rush back again.
Thanks Rush
How is what he said racist? Do you deny that the government has taken care of blacks through affirmative action programs and other such reverse-discrimination programs?
If he is only referring to affirmative action, you may have a point. But Rush likes to think big. He's referring to the collective whole - affirmative action, welfare, food stamps - you name it. Typical method to obfuscate the truth by marginalizing the whole message. Works for the bumper sticker crowd unfortunately.
Yeah, what do they have to complain about?
Whoops:
Number of black children in extreme poverty hits all time high
That is most likely because of the high rate of out of wedlock pregnancies by black women. Actions have consequences.
"Most likely" seems to be a quantitative judgment. Do you have data that supports this?
Can you back up your claim with links to the statistics?
Here you go:
http://children.smartlibrary.info/NewInterface/segment.cfm?segment=1788
Main quote: "Blank says that these numbers are especially high for African Americans, where over two-thirds of all births are to unmarried mothers"
This shows that a higher number of black children are born out of wedlock. This says nothing about your assertion that black child poverty is "most likely" a result of out-of-wedlock births.
I am not discounting character issues and personal responsibility. I am saying that is only part of the picture. Black poverty is a complex issue and it is too easy to say it is all the fault of blacks, just as it is too easy to say (as I am pretty sure no serious person does) that it is all the fault of whites.
All poverty could be called a complex issue. Some people decide to live a "simple" life or live a "simple" life because of circumstances. Studies have shown that children born out of wedlock or those being raised by a single parent are more likely to be in poverty than those from a "traditional" two parent family. If a large majority of a racial group is being born out of wedlock, it would seem that group would make up a large proportion of those in poverty. Government programs, well intentioned, have made it "easier" for one of the procreators to walk away from their responsibilities. Fact of life. My youngest daughter some years ago found herself in that situation, when the "man" of the family walked out, leaving her to care for and provide for three small children. It was a tough few years, but she worked through it, using governement and family resources along the way.
I agree that all poverty is a complex issue, and I agree that there have been unintended consequences.
I just don't like seeing people's lives reduced to bumper-sticker slogans.
Government programs, well intentioned, have made it "easier" for one of the procreators to walk away from their responsibilities.
How so? I would think that, if you have to collect a welfare check every month, it would make it much more difficult to hide from someone looking for child support.
Despite he fact that the study is 14 years old here are some other interesting quotes from the study:
"It is important to note that the actual number out-of-wedlock teen births is not large, Blank writes. In 1990, less than 350,000 unwed teenagers gave birth, out of a total population of 8.5 million women between the ages of 15 and 19. In fact, these births accounted for less than 9% of the 4 million births in the United States."
and:
"The rise in single motherhood is not confined to low-income women, says Blank. While more-educated women still have lower overall rates of unwed births, the percentage increase in unwed births among better-educated women is actually greater than among less-educated women."
The study goes on to cite 3 negative impacts of single parenthood, namely; poverty may rise, children may suffer and policy may fail. These may be true statements, evidence indicates that they are likely true.
Still, you have not successfully persuaded that single parenthood is the primary cause of poverty among any demographic.
Keep trying. I will listen.
yup, actions have consequences - for minorities. less so for your typical republican white boy.
Actions have consequences, indeed. Actions like, say, over two centuries of enslaving Africans and nearly another century of legal, institutionalized racial segregation and discrimination. The history of systematic robbery of material wealth and political rights does indeed have consequences. Why aren't you recognizing them?
Its absolutly racist. More whites than blacks are on welfare, we all know what he was talking about and it wasnt affirmative action. He said THEIR WHOLE LIVES. That isnt affirmative action which does nothing until job or college time. Its the codeword racist black welfare queen game. He is a bigot and everyone knows it the difference is rightwingers wont admit it. The lover to pretend there is no such thing as racism and nothing even if its as blatantly racist as this is REALLY racist.
"How is what he said racist? Do you deny that the government has taken care of blacks through affirmative action programs and other such reverse-discrimination programs?"
Yeah, I know, the Blacks are taking our country, our jobs, and our white women, we must stop them, etc... Yes, our ultimate fear of minorities taking over and putting us in their position knows no bounds. That's why people like Rush and other goofs like to cry "reverse-discrimination". I mean really, what is that?
C'mon, do YOU deny that the government has taken care of us by allowing us to continually benefit from white privilege? (There is not a neighborhood we can go and be the victim of racial profiling, is there?) Rush is an idiot bigot. He's too stupid to even be a smart bigot. Even the average privileged arrogant sorry-ass White should feel alienated from our current incompetent government.
...(There is not a neighborhood we can go and be the victim of racial profiling, is there?)...
Try Long Beach, CA on for size (see post above).
AA benefits white women, the handicapped and vets as much as blacks. A better question might be why does the far right feel alienated from the government when the government takes care of them through subsidies, emminent domain, bid free contracts, etc?
That's a damn lie. My parents took care of me for the first part of my life and then I took over. My daughter is 28 years old and she takes care of her damn self too. This is slanderous and more proof that the right wingers are the biggest hateful racist of them all. Go to hell!
Do you deny that the government has taken care of whites through billion dollar tax credits, farm subsidies, big government contracts and policies that further only the interest of rich whites? Billions and billions of dollars are showered on folks like Rush Limbaugh and still he complains about a few crumbs going to the poor. Affirmative action only happens for whites...look at our corporate, government and other business leadership...its all predominantly white...and its not because they are more qualified.
Yeah, rush is a racist but biden just "goofed"
I thought I was the only conservative on this website....
Read the username, u r not alone
Quick, you two, back to the quarantine area before anyone else is infected!
Yeah...logic hurts u libs doesn't it?
You keep using that word, "logic." I do not think it means what you think it means.
What logic? Let's review:
(A) At issue is whether Limbaugh's comment is defensible.
(B) You've pointed out that Biden made a racist comment.
Do you notice anything interesting about the relationship between A and B? That's right! They have nothing to do with one another! Congratulations on making a completely irrelevant argument!
You then advanced to the bonus round by remarking that "logic hurts," moving beyond mere irrelevance and falsely suggesting that your previous comment had any coherent logical structure. Bravo!
There are many conservatives in this web site but only a few wingnuts.
How about Rush is a racist, which is self evident and Biden, isnt the subject of this thread. Actually if you want to say Biden is racist I wouldnt argue.
Rush displays overt racism. He knows exactly what he's saying.
Biden's is more subconscious. He's somewhat clueless to his own bigotry.
I agree with that.
Rush says crap like this on every other program. Biden has said crap like this two or three times.
Which, of course, is two or three times too many.
Biden never told a black person to "get that bone out of you nose."
Is there a point in Limbaugh's remarks...?
What's his point? Or is this just a way of throwing in a cheap shot at Joe Biden and "clean" blacks... and to reinforce the right wing's hatred of blacks on welfare? Limbaugh is despicable...
My point is that if a con says something that could be racist he is but if a lib says it he "slipped"...no liberal bias indeed. Now you know why conservative talk and fow news BEAT THE CRAP out of the liberal media
Biden was roundly and rightly called out as an idiot and has effectively ended one of the shortest pres. campaigns in history. Lib talk shows are making inroads, especially on the internet. That's how I get my daily fix of Thom Hartman. So do all my lib friends.
Are you guys really arguing with an honest-to-goodness Michael Savage fan?
Seriously?
Does anyone else see the abject futility in such an endeavor? The guy is already doomed! All you're gonna do here is get his skidmarked panties in a bunch.
Did Biden appologize? When Rush appolgizes for this remark you will have a point until then YOU HAVE NO POINT. There is no such thing as a liberal media there never has been.
Apologize, true racists that embrace that in themselves don't apologize. Rush want;s to believe he is correct and he could care less about offending anyone. That's the difference between these wing nuts and say a Biden. In addition I once read a study that white kids where the biggest purchasers of rap music. So he's wrong all the way around.
Biden took plenty of heat for what he said from media of all persuasions: it was flat-out racially offensive and ignorant. Biden apologized to Obama for it. Curiously, the only person I'm aware of who defended Biden was....Rush Limbaugh.
Now, what was that you were saying about "Fow News"?
Can we just refer to this numb-nuts as racist and comedian Rush Limbaaaaaagh.
It's really no surprise that he uses this kind racist rhetoric. What is surprising is that his sponsors apparently support racism.
Again, rush is a racist.....BIDEN JUST GOOFED. The liberal media bias is out of control
Who says "Biden just goofed?" I would call that a straw-man argument, except the term is discriminatory agains Scarecrow-Americans...
Keep repeating that, maybe it will come true.
What is surprising is that you would call somebody a racist for no reason. Limbaugh is merely stating a fact. The federal government has given blacks extra rights over the past thirty years. Do you deny this? Have you forgotten about these reverse-discrimination policies?
Yes, but facts to liberals is like sunlight to dracula....or capitalism to hillary
Or like military service to someone like Limbaugh.
That is the weakest argument I have ever heard. "Oh...you didn't serve" C'mon the majority of americans DON'T serve. Are you not allowed to voice your opinion unless you are liberal (fairness doctrine) or a vet (your argument)
My point has at least as much validity as your comments about Clinton and liberals.
Your hero Limbaugh was too cowardly to serve in the military. He like Cheney took advantage of deferments to avoid service while many minorities served.
I hope that some day, someone can be as proud of you as I am of all of the minorities that served in Vietnam.
1 Libaugh is neither my hero nor am I a repulican...read my username. I subscribe to a more savage form of conservatism
2 THE MILITARY IS STILL A MAJORITY WHITE INSTITUTION....DO YOU EVEN READ?
Yes, I can read. I can also spell. You haven't convinced me that you're capable of either.
Blacks as percentage of US population: 12.8% as of 2005
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html
Blacks as percentage of US Military: 24% in 2000 declining to 14% in 2005.
http://www.prb.org/Template.cfm?Section=PRB&template=/ContentManagement/ContentDisplay.cfm&ContentID=13494
While the military is a white dominated institution African Americans are far from under-represented in proportion to their population.
So then you prefer outright insanity to Limbaugh like lies. Gotcha
I see who you like...a mentally ill person named WEINER...
Thats right savage weiner rocks, most people don't serve and most people don't support this war either...except for a few who like to cheer from the sidelines.
You're not one of those cheerleaders are you??
Not me...I served for 4 years on the USS Thomas S Gates...so...I guess I'm allowed to have an opinion. Did u serve?
..and the manority of Americans aren't war-mongers. If you're going to be a war-monger at least take walk the walk.
projection alert. Its the rightwing that hates facts the way vampires hate Holy Water. YOU are especially bad.
Rush said: "The government's been taking care of them their whole lives."
He's talking about welfare, not just affirmative action. You know welfare... when your hard-earned money is given away to lazy, undeserving dark people. Ask a "ditto head' what they think of welfare...?
No Rush isnt merely stating an opinion. Rush is making a bigotted baseless assertion. The best reason to call Rush a racist is that he is a racist. I absolutly deny blacks have special rights. Instituting policies to reverse the effects of institutional racism isnt reverse discrimination in my book.
Rino hunter -
You can't possibly mean what you've written for the following reasons:
1) It makes you sound like a dope.
2) It makes you sound like a racists and / or,
3) It make you sound like a conservative ditto head.
Please take this opportunity to correct this horrible misunderstanding.
"2) It makes you sound like a racists"
No. I'm not. I support Martin Luther King's dream that people should be judged by the content of their character and not the color of their skin. If you support affirmative action, then you think that people should be judged by the color of their skin, and you oppose King's dream. I believe in having a color blind society in which race isn't a factor.
Hey I beleive in a color blind society too. The reality is that we don't. Racism is alive and well; re: Rush Limbaaaagh.
By the way isn't el-rush-bo fond of saying that "words matter"?? He's right about that at least.
Were you paying attention to the fact that Dr. King referred to this as a dream, and that it would require a great deal of work to get to the point where that dream could be realized?
Besides: how can you simultaneously argue on the one hand that you're blind to color and don't believe that affirmative action programs should exist, and then claim that blacks have disproportionately less wealth, health and education because of their own actions (i.e. out of wedlock children)? You seem to have very selective blindness.
Is it so hard to accept that there are material consequences of the history of legalized and institutionalized racial slavery, segregation, and discrimination that we need to address before we can achieve Dr. King's dream?
You're not practicing racial color blindness -- you're blind to history.
Extra rights for black people, rino?
What rights do blacks or any minority have that you as a white dude, I assume, do not have?
Be specific please.
Well, blacks can get welfare! What's that? Whites can too? Well, blacks can get into college! Wait, you say whites can too? Well, black people can call each other the "n word". That's a special right.
Where did you come from Rino Hunter? Because your backside is going to get served up real good here.
TTD
What percentage of blacks get their jobs or enter college due to affirmative action? 10%? 85%? You make it sound like no black could compete with whites and blacks wouldn't be working or going to college without affirmative action. Come on, Genius. Tell us some facts about the impact and prevalence of affirmative action.
Ole BlunderRush was probably referring to the startling percentage of young Black Americans incarcerated. He would probably consider that the U.S. Government taking care of them. Add in those in the U.S. Military and that's an even larger percentage.
And, by the way, what is "reverse-discrimination?"
Yes, god forbid we don't meet quotas in our prisons.....we must arrest more of the evil whiteys. Kind of like reverse affimative action. Or we could just arrest people that commit the crimes. It just happens to be a coincidence that a lot of them are minorities
wow, right to quota's. No wonder y'all can't figure out liberals, you've been brainwashed to think codified responses. News flash, liberals don't speak in code...
You also don't speak in personal accountability, legal immigration, border security, capitalism, states rights, free speech....you know stuff like that
personal accountability demands from the party of "it's their fault, not mine". OK, ya got me there...
I'm sorry...who's fault?
Oh yeah you're a Savage fan all right, though you're giving us "savage-lite", all the "right" talking points without the foul, gutter-mouthed hate speech that must really turn you on. Listen, take your white victimization and liberal media tripe and peddle it to the circle jerks at newsbusters, who will applaud your courage in taking it to them lib'ruls at media matters. God, don't you see you're being played as fools by rushsavageetal, whose only sincere belief is in the gullibility of paranoid, IC (inferiorily-complexed) white males such as you who enable them to become wealthy beyond the bounds of anything they could possibly deserve! That's WHY con radio is so "popular", cause it props up all your prejudices and comforting, binky-like beliefs, all the while telling you YES, YOU TOO CAN BE A VICTIM! Can't you see that--no of course you can't, the ignorant rubes fleeced by the snake oil salesmen never do realize it until it's too late. Sorry if this is so vitriolic but I'm sick of people like you in part because you and yours helped elect the moron-in-chief who, among other atrocities, has consigned another generation of young Americans to another horrid profit pit of death--where the F is his "personal accountability", tell me that--and all you can do is talk about how you've been discriminated against, like that's the major issue of our day! Grow up and get out of my face!
(Oh and P.S.-welcome to media matters!)
I apologize for bringin logic to a liberal argument....that's like bringing a nuke to a knife fight
Before you appologize for doing something you really ought to try doing it. I agree with Val I dont think the word means what you think it means here is a clue it DOESNT mean baseless assertion
If you don't think your opponents have the capacity to understand your "logic," then why are you even bothering to post your comments? Where's the logic in your actions? If you really think your opponents can't understand you, why are you spending so much time communicating with them?
I have a feeling that your actions aren't motivated by a desire to engage in a rational debate, so much as they are an expression of a neurosis. Did mommy and daddy ignore you unless you threw a tantrum? Did daddy hit you when you disagreed with him, and you learned to identify with force over reason? Or are you just a masochist who enjoys coming here and getting verbally smacked around?
In all seriousness, I'd urge you to work out some of this misdirected hostility with someone who can help you. I care about you as a human being, and I'd hate to see you waste any more of your life by posting messages to people who you think can't understand you.
I imagine you'll want to respond to my message with hostility, too. And hey, I can't blame you for that -- I'm sure it must feel threatening to have someone express concern for you all of the sudden. But it's really sad to see you post so many messages and then act as if no one can hear you. It would have been cruel for me to stand by without saying anything while you continue to spend more and more of your time making yourself sound more and more pathetic.
You want to demonstrate some logic? Either engage in rational debate and disagree with people in a reasoned way, or get some help. Otherwise, by your own admission, you're wasting your time here. And I'd hate to see you waste more of it.
Media Matters: Rush Limbaugh said something racist on his show.
WeinerRocks: ...legal immigration, border security, capitalism, states rights, free speech...
Please try to stay on topic.
That's not true and stugy after study has shown that Blacks are arrested at higher rates because their communities are targeted, in addition once arrested Blacks and Hispancis get more time for similar offense than Whites. I wish this wasn't true and it pains me that it is.
And the military is still MOSTLY WHITE....so I guess u just disregard facts
Why do you keep saying that? I mean, what is your point? This whole country is majority white.
HMMM...maybe this is why there are more white ceo's, scholarship recipients and college students, congressman, business owners, etc. thanks for proving how stupid affirmative action and racial quotas are
The only thing proven is you wouldnt recognize a logical argument if it slapped your face stole your wallet
I don't get it, what is your point?
Savagerocks
You do understand the idea of how to view the % of one particular race to the overall numbers within the total population right? Why don't you stop for a second and think about why problems disproportionately effect certain groups within society? For example the issue of poverty, do you really think its just simply a matter of personal responsibility?
Why don't you view the US Cenus poverty data and maybe it will put this notion into perspective for you. Unless of course you prefer to be told how to think about poverty by people like Savage and refuse to think something through for yourself..
http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/poverty.html
By the way - If you view the numbers and alternate arguments about why single mothers are effected more by poverty there is more then one notion about why this actually takes place. Women on average make significantly less then men... It's called the feminization of poverty, look it up and read about it.
Reverse discrimination is discrimination against whites. It's what takes place when affirmative action quota policies are put in place. It's what occurs when the federal government gives preferential treatment to a certain group of individuals at the expense of others.
Yeah, I was joking that we need more whites (whether guilty or not)in jail to even out the ratio....that would be something I thing lefties could get behind
it's primarily discrimination against the practice of promoting lower performing whites over better qualified minorities. The idea that "dumber" minorities are given jobs in preference to "smarter" whites is hype.
What planet are you on? When was the last time you tried to apply for college or get a scholarship?
well, let me see... it was back in the late 70's. I was accepted to west point as is, but my real goal, the naval academy, was denied because even though my SAT scores rocked, the fact that I wore glasses put me in a seperate category. The navy specializes more, ergo the fact that someone with a lower SAT was accepted over me. But it wasn't because of the color of my skin, it was because of the need to fulfill a skill based on requirements.
Our colleges and universities have always turned away the more "talented" based upon need. Y'all just can't get over the fact that another criteria was added into the mix...
About 3 years ago. Currently attending a campus of the University of California. Also white.
I would probably be in Yale if it wasn't filled with coloreds, though.
Four years ago. I got a partial scholarship, based on need... I am technically white, though I have roots in Southern Italy.
That might have been the intention of those that started the program, but it has turned into much more. Blacks are often times chosen over whites simply because of the color of their skin, even if they are less qualified. I believe that we need a color blind society in which race isn't a factor. The most qualified person should get the job or get accepted to the university.
I agree - but do you think that would be the outcome if every affirmative action law was repealed today, every minority set-aside was disallowed?
If so, why? On what basis?
Equality of oppurtunity...the cream rises to the top. If you don't have enuff money for school you can always join the military....kinda like....me
So then cream rising to the top is equated to having more money. Yeah, that is how Bush got into Yale, not hard work, nor good grades, privelege. Everyone has the equal opportunity of WHAT THEY CAN AFFORD.
Let them join the military as I did....free college money
Enough "free" college money to get into a prestigious private academy? What about the time spent in the military that the privileged kids used to get started early?
So then leave the priveleges for the priveleged alone and only attack the few priveleges given to the underpriveleged. I got it.
Why didn't you go to college?
You know, of all the people I've known who served in the armed forces to help pay their way through school, I've never met one who called it "free college money." Since when is risking your life for your country free?
I'm not saying that I don't believe you... I'm just saying that if you did join the military to pay for school, you took your service much more lightly than anybody I've ever known who served.
Oh, and by the way -- thank you for serving your country.
What % of minority students have actually taken "your" financial aid or place at a university? If your so upset about the lack of $$$ for school why are you immediately placing the blame on minority students and not looking at the larger problem? For example, why didn't you bring up the Bush administration cuts to financial aid which effect ALL college students and applicants across the board?
Your being manipulated by people to focus on issues of class war fair and your attention is being diverted from the larger issue. Classic example is Welfare fraud. Of course it was an issue, but in proportion to the amount of money that is being spent, wasted and misappropriated (i.e. stealing) in other areas of our country do you really think it merits the attention that it received? It's easier to tackle those evil Welfare moms because they have no political power or voice in our country... Much easier then corporate corruption or shady dealings in Washington. You tell me which one is a larger problem?
You can't possibly be saying that poor inner city schools are somehow equal in quality to affluent suburban schools.
2 words...school vouchers
Three words: Failures of Privatization.
Then you also oppose legacies I presume? Or is it only priveleges extended to the underprivleged you oppose and privelges to the already priveleged is ok?
Yes... the struggle of the white man in America is painful and pitiful to behold.
Tell me, do you even believe that such a thing as institutionalized racism exists? If not, how do you account for the disparity in black income and the overrepresentation of black men in prison?
I'm sorry....do you know lnow something about a trust fund or something that every white person is entitled to at birht 'cause I guess someone owes me some money. And yes I do believe in institutionalized racism....it's called affirmative action
And do you know something about EVERY black person being on welfare? Or is it when Rush generalizes thats fine he is only stating facts but when Val generalizes then its not fine? You do realize that your weak arguments and totally logic free posts are an embarassment dont you?
You mean like they have in "historically black colleges"? I wonder what would happen if someone dared term a phrase "historically white college"....torches and pitchforks I'm sure
Oh my, come on, you can't be serious.
The historically black colleges are there because blacks couldn't get into any other colleges. You and those who spout your kind of rhetoric always act like institutions put in place to help blacks overcome centuries of oppression and abuse are somehow racist.
How can you sit comfortably with balls that big?
Learn the formula: discrimination + power = racism.
My whole point is that colleges are no longer racist intitutions
Oh, that's why there are so many black Ivy Leaguers.
Is that you're only argument? If they can get in and need money they can do what I did...join the military
SavageRocks,
You obviously need a history lesson. I'll make it simple for you.
Before integration, blacks could not attend white schools. So black colleges were created to educate blacks. After integration, black colleges became historically black colleges because they were still institutions of higher learning with there own identity and traditions. Just because integration occured doesn't mean you close down a school that has existed for over half a century. The difference between historically black colleges and other schools is the fact that they never discriminated against applicants based on race.
Now, since you know the history, I don't want to hear another conservative bigot say some crap like historically black colleges discriminate against whites. At some of these schools, whites can get a free ride with a C grade point average because they would be considered a minority there while at the same time a black student couldn't get into most predominately white colleges with a C grade point average regardless of affirmitive action.
I never said ANYTHING about "every black person" being on welfare...I was simply pointing out that the minority is not the only poor in the country...I know this might shock people but there actually ARE poor white folks too
There are more poor whites, numerically speaking, than poor blacks. However, more blacks as a percentage of all blacks are poor.
Why is that, do you think?
The subtle racism of lower expectations - Bush, sr. Simply put the democrats want to keep minorities in government programs so they can seem like they care about them
Simply put the democrats want to keep minorities in government programs so they can seem like they care about them
And what are the Republicans doing, meanwhile?
That's "soft racism..." so, what accounted for black poverty before affirmative action? Was there racism in the past, but then it all went away in like a week during the 60s and since then it's all th Democrats' fault?
Simply put that is a fantasy argument telling black people they are too dumb to understand the complicated workings of the world and the democrats are REALLY hurting them with the programs they instituted to help them.
Which do you think has more of an effect: the subtle racism of lowered expectations, or the historical impact of centuries of overt racism, systematic slavery and discrimination, and the denial of rights and property to people based on race ideology?
Sure I was one when I was a kid. I would even be ok if at the college level affirmative action were economically administered instead of racially. As for jobs its always been easier to get certain good jobs if your father or uncle had one, I have just such a job and my seniority roster has NOTHING but white anglo saxon protestants until 1971 and only a VERY few until 1977. That kind of institutional racism should be addressed. RACIALLY. Not with quotas necessarily but certainly with some way to create an equal footing for the minorities that were for decades shut out of such jobs.
Yes...let's live in the past...to say there WAS no racism in the past would be stupid. But to say that it is a huge problem in US institutions is also moronic
I am sorry that was my fault the point I made required actual higher brain function to understand. I should have saved that for someone capable of higher brain function. Let me try again. Many good jobs easier to get if family already have job. Those jobs not hire many minorities in past, so, harder to get for minorities TODAY. We should address this. Was that better?
Savagerocks...
Why don't you tell us what % of all individuals (white, black, hispanic, etc.) move past the socio-economic background of their parents?
No, of course you don't think that there was no racism in the past. That would be silly. You just think that it has no lasting effects upon the present, which is even worse.
A large percentage of black men go to prison because they are violent and commit violent acts. It's as simple as that. Many of them get caught up listening to gansta rap, where the rapper tells them to pop pills and shoot people. The culture is the problem in the African American community, not the government. Actions have consequences, and blacks need to learn to get the negative influences out of their lives.
I think our friend val must be getting some advil...how rude of me to use logic against a liberal argument
How rude to use logic? How would you know? You havent been withing miles of a logical argument since your very first post here. The next logical argument you make will be your very first. Here is a clue, consider it affirmative action for the logically challenged. A baseless assertion is not a logical argument an opinion stated as fact is NOT a logical argument.
Savagerocks
When is your b-day? I'm sure I can get everyone on MMFA to agree to pitch in on a book for you. It would make all of our time spend here so much easier. When you get into colledge make sure to take a course on logic. I would adivse that you take it during a semester when you have an easier load because its a very difficult class for most folks! I just took it 2 semesters back.
http://www.amazon.com/Logic-Dummies-Math-Science/dp/0471799416
I'm not sure why you keep stating how logical all of your arguments are and that liberals just don't get them. Who exactly are you trying to convince?
Wrong.
The overwhelming majority of blacks are in prison for nonviolent crimes, mostly drug offenses. Wow, what a sweeping statement! Did I just pull that out of my ass?
No.
That's one reason I want to legalize marijuana....shocked? I'm sure your are.
Not especially, legalization of drugs doesn't always fall on one side of the left-right axis.
The whole point is there is a misrepresentation in the prisons because, unfortunetly there is a misrepresention by minorities in the number of crimes committed. Would you like it if....in order to even out the ratio we put ANY white person commiting a simple traffic violation in prison for 5 years? That way there would be more whites in prison....just like there are more whites than minorities in the military. Would you like this kind of reverse affirmative action?
No. I made no such proposal and it's dishonest of you to put words in my mouth.
Do you think there is any significance to the fact that it takes 500 grams of powder cocaine to trigger a five-year mandatory minimum sentence, while it takes 5 grams of crack earns the same punishment?
I just thought it sounded like a good way to even up the ratio in prisons....sounds like a solid lib policy to me...and I never said you said it. I personally think ALL drugs should be legalized for two reasons 1. we're gonna need the taxes once libs erradicate the taxes earned from cigarettes and 2. it'll bring natural selection to all new heights
No what it sounds like is the kind of blatant stupidity that people without a functioning cerebral cortex, completely brainwashed by moronic rightwingnut sceechmonkeys would THINK ( and since I am referring to a rightwinger I use the term think in its broadest context) would be a liberal idea
Here....let me argue the way you do.....MY DADDY CAN BEAT UP YOUR DADDY! Was that juvenile enuff 4 u
Neither were exactly analytical analysis. Both were superior to the ignorant mischaracterization of liberal ideas in your original post. Did you think only you wingnuts were allowed to just make up baseless and perjorative mischaracterizations? Did someone tell you that was the exclusive franchise of those dumb enough to think Weiner makes sense?
I don't really know the answer to that but the racial thing is not the reason....if I was to theorize I would contend that crack is simply a more dangerous and available (cheaper) drug. By making a small amount of crack punishable to that degree probably "pads the stats" of the "war on drugs"
"Pads the stats?" It puts more blacks in prison. That is exactly what it does. WTF does "pads the stats" mean?
Makes more arrests so it looks like we're doing more against drugs
You should have stopped at "I don't really know the answer."
There were twice as many arrests for powder cocaine in fiscal 2004. If the "stats" are being "padded," it's on the other side. Crack users just do longer sentences.
Sorry, forgot the citation.
How about we just put Rich white drug offenders in prison when they are caught abusing drugs illegally even IF its an obnoxious talk show host, instead of allowing HIM to go to rehab instead of the five years a black ghetto dweller without recourse to the best lawyers would get? Do we know anybody that fits that profile?
I definitely don't know anyone like that. Limbaugh took legal prescription drugs for pain. He was never convicted of anything. It's amazing how liberals always say that defendants are innocent until proven guilty, unless it's someone they don't like.
"I definitely don't know anyone like that. Limbaugh took legal prescription drugs for pain."
Is that why he was sending his housekeeper out with cash to buy it at Denny's? That is one interesting health care plan Rush had.
Actually, it's our legal system that says you are innocent until proven guilty.
Yes you do. Rushingdownthedrugaddictionmountain doctor shopped, he sent his maid out to buy the drug on the streets possessing prescription drugs without a valid prescription for them is every bit as much a drug offense as possessing crack cocaine. Your excuses notwithstanding
Oh and I didnt say Rush was guilty but there was plenty of evidence for a prima facie case. A poor kid with cocaine would have been prosecuted on half as much evidence Rush wasnt even prosecuted and not because the evidence wasnt there.
Suburban white kids are the largest consumers of gangsta rap amd culture. How do explain their disproportionate success even though they are firmly in the clutches of a so called retrograde lifestyle?
I never said anything about gangsta rap...u have me confused with rhino hunter
I think you are mistaken. Roundhouse was replying to the rino hunter guy.
Also, it's RINO hunter. Not RHINO hunter. RINO stands for Republican In Name Only. My name implies that I want to weed out the liberals from the Republican Party.
"Suburban white kids are the largest consumers of gangsta rap amd culture"
Do you have a source for that?
What demographic do you think has the purchasing power to make so many rap albums go platinum?
[link to www.google.com]
"fall 2004, using the new method, MRI found that 60 percent of rap buyers are white"
That leaves about 40% who aren't white. You could probably assume that at least 30% are black. Considering the fact that blacks only account for about 10% of the population, that shows that a larger percentage of blacks listen to gansta rap than whites.
Your point being?
That's not the point of what we have been talking about now is it, rino?
Hey I have a source showing the sky is blue if you need it
Man Rino, I guess you are going to be next on my list. It isn't as simple as you make it out to be seeing as how you never were black like me. I love your brand of ignorance and spew, and now it's about time I stood up to you. The system is stacked againts those whose backs built America for free. But you wouldn't understand, because you've had the chances in this land of opportunity. You never had to watch your back, you never drove a car while black, you never suffered because of the color of your skin. So for you to talk about why things are the way they are, you are out of your depth.
We are the most hated men in America. That's why the jails keep getting built. If we are given the same opportunities in education, salary, whatever, we perform and then some. We have had to work three times as hard and suffer more indignities just to be considered equal, even in the 21st century. Here it is, 2007 and we are having this conversation. What a shame.
Rino Hunter
Question for you. Tell me what is the education level of all people in prison, what is / was their parent's socio-economic background and finally what % of people in prison have incomes below the poverty line?
Can you also take a look at the numbers of blacks in prison prior to Gangsta Rap? How about we agree on a date and look back from there? How about 1980?
I really want to understand your argument, RINO. You're saying that you're not racist, you just know that black people are more violent and more criminal. And not because of any social conditions or historical forces like poverty or discrimination or slavery or redlining or segregation, but because black people generally make worse choices and listen to the wrong music.
Is that about the size of it?I dont believe there is a more priveleged group of people that ever existed on the Planet than White American christian men and I say that as a white American Christian man. Listening to them snivel about how oppressed they are is sad farce.
Then you sir are in fact....a racist
Pointing out racism is racism?
I guess this is why you say liberals don't like logic... your definition of logic must be "saying whatever nonsense pops into my head without any relationship to reality."
Bingo, we have a winner, sound the bells
Solon basically just incenuated that all white men had an advantage....if this is not racism what is?
He said they were more privileged as a group, which is true. If you can't tell difference, then its your own shortcoming.
Actually I pointed out as a GROUP we were more priveleged. Not the same thing. I think a semiliterate mentally handicapped white person has some disadvantages. What it WAS, clearly, was a pure recognition of reality.
In Savagerocksian logic, "racism" is defined as "referring to the race of someone." In this formulation, "white men are advantaged" is semantically equivalent to "blacks are stupid."
And since quotas are illegal, except in rare specific cases ruled on by a judge, you have no point.
Illegal technically but still going on.... I guess in your world no laws are broken, secondly, the desparity of available scholarships is extreme this is, is fact racist....remeber what happened when students at Boston U made a white male scholarship? The faculty denouced the scholarship because it was not pc
The point is, white males wouldn't need a special scholarship.
Then why shouls anyone else? Shouldn't it be the BEST CANDIDATE?
The issue of scholarships is more complicated than that. Who is "the best candidate"? The people with the highest grades? Then blacks would probably be at a disadvantage, since they are more likely to live in poorer areas with underfunded schools.
And that's not to say there aren't ethnic scholarships for whites. There are, but they are usually limited to a specific culture (e.g. Irish), since a blanket "white scholarship" would basically just shut out ethnic minorities.
There are also AA programs based on region. I believe David Gergan went to college on one of those programs. This came about as an off shoot of the "war on poverty". White kids living in rural poor areas (The Appalacias) went to poorly funded shcools and were at a disadvantage because of this. Qualified (high performers) kids are admitted to college-univeristies via AA programs as well. I wonder if the bigot trolls are aware of this and how they feel about this. Is this fair? I think it is.
Being a white male, I really cannot give you one example in my life where I have been cheated or known anyone that has been cheated out of an education or a job due to Affirmative Action. Sure, I have heard the anecdote and the whine about Affirmative Action, but I have found that more and more people have lost a chance for education or a job because they the type of people more apt to blame all their downfalls on scapegoats.
U there AJWAN? Did you drop off to catch up on your MARX?
BTW...I'm calling you a commie only because you called me a racist
I can just imagibe this racist pillhead (take that, hannity.com!) if he was on in the 60s during the civil righst movement.
"The problem with Neeeegroes is that that seem to think that they have the right to vote in the South. That's not the way it works, people. There has to be a reason why they aren't allowed to vote. ..Watts...in Los Angeles is why. I...Am...Not...making...This...Up!"
Weiner lover:
1. Stupidity seems to be your drug of choice. Repugs can't even find a candidate for president that hasn't used marijuana or cocaine-that would seem to indicate a fairly large number of pseudo-con drug users, doncha think ? Now about getting rid of TONS of "libs"-bite me you little fascist twit-can you say final solution ?
2. If you aren't laughing at Rush the oxycontin addict's stupid statement that pretty well cinches it, but your patent ignorance of the difficulties of poverty level fathers trying to raise a family on minimum wage and the frequency of walking while black/driving while black police rousts indicates unconcious racism at the least. and the ease with which rich white kids beat drug convictions isn't an urban myth.
Don't bother replying with the same limpdick/whiner weiner "debating tactics" -heard them all before and will not respond.
You're an idiot.
Yes...hit and run the perfect tactic for a feeble mind
Savagerocks, you are a savage idiot. But since you enjoy abuse so much, it's now my turn to hit the pinata. Since you are obviously some inbred, uneducated whackjob who never knew what it is like to be anything else but a hyperdelusional, supremacist freak, let me school you about who you worship. He would not associate with you because you are not in the same class as he is. You do not have the money or the clout to hang with him. See, what you fail to come to grips with is that racism is another form of classism. I don't know where your family is from, but you would be termed a serf and Druggie a lord. And serfs were pretty much slaves in their eyes. Yeah, that's right, he views anyone that is not in his economic class the same way. But it is more than obvious that your stupidity is showing and it's about time you woke up. Neocons like Rush and their fascist buddies want the world to go back to the feudal system and guess what my friend, you'll be servin' them. Until you are rich enough to even talk to them, you're just another faked out wanna be who's gettin' pimped.
Another thing, who dropped you on your head as a kid? Who taught you the things that you know now? Ever think for a minute that the people who are on this site are a little to smart to buy into your brand of mess? Look, if you want to impress, bring something more to the table than your hateful, vitriolic rhetoric. Now go to your corner and put your dunce cap on.
From Papi: "you are a savage idiot." "Since you are obviously some inbred, uneducated whackjob who never knew what it is like to be anything else but a hyperdelusional, supremacist freak," "But it is more than obvious that your stupidity is showing", "Another thing, who dropped you on your head as a kid?"
And the kicker:
"Look, if you want to impress, bring something more to the table than your hateful, vitriolic rhetoric. Now go to your corner and put your dunce cap on."
Hey Papi, can you say "projection"? I knew you could.
You know what's funny? I don't even LIKE Rush....He's not critical enuff on Bush for me. Anywhoo, it was fun, then again slaying libs at mental duels is about as hard as shooting fish in a barrel so I'll let u guys have your website back. BTW I guess u guys never found anything I said to be racist since, unlike people who hate white folks, i'm looking at you solon, I am not. So here's some advice READ! I promise it won't kill you
CTT2 (SW) Mathis
how was throwing out inane factless bs shooting fish in a barrel? You just threw a glob of poop at the wall and found nothing sticks. Tell ya what though, troll. how about you talk to the schmucks at your reichy sites and tell them to stop throwing us off the moment we disagree with the most feeble minded of your realm? Notice you get more airtime here than we would ever be allowed in your world. Think about that, troll...
Why would I even go to a website that agrees with me? I would much rather debate people who don't, unlike most people here
Throughing out unsubtaniated rigth wing talking points is not
Throghing out unsubstantiated right wing talking points is not debating. The internet is loaded with numerous studies that speak about the disparities in arrests and sentencing of Blacks and Hispanics. Minorities are arrested at a higher rate because they are targeted and once arrested they are sentenced more harshly that Whites who are convicted of the same crime. But you don't want to read these things because it disputes the reality you want to believe. Rasism isn't a problem, Blacks are whiny and dependent on the government, and Blacks commit more crime because they listen to gansta rap. The Savage and Limbaugh fans lap up this overly simplistic and untrue rhetoric because they want the world to be this simplistic. It isn't, and hating someone like me won’t make the world less complicated for you, it won't happen.
You have got to be kidding. The only thing you have done is embarass yourself. Your capacity for self delusion is astonishing. You have been shredded in every post. Today just like every other time you have posted here. You are a moron. You are one of the three living creatures that would INCREASE YOUR IQ if you filled you head with ROCKS. You win debates here the way a trout wins the fishing derby when he is fried up in a pan. I didnt believe anyone could be stupider than Sean Hannity and still remember to breathe. I guess I was wrong about that. The only thing your arguments are good for is batting practice
And like the wind between his ears, he's gone...
I'm...I'm...kinda choked up. I learnt so much from him. Like how to spell "incenuate"....
Savage weiner rocks -
Thanks for the sage advice..."read", now you do mean books and stuff right???
I hope you don't mind if I offer you some advice. Here it is. Take your ear away from the radio before you lose what little grey matter you have left. On the other hand your posts are mildly entertaining ...never mind, keep listening.
PS...Rush Limbaaaagh is still a racist and funnier than you are.
This from the person who said, "Yes...hit and run the perfect tactic for a feeble mind."
I hope you enjoyed your discursive masturbation session. As for me, I feel a bit dirty for having been subjected to it.
Perspective
I have often wondered why the racial and class divide still exist in our country. As a boy growing up in the sixties, I thought the way to equalization had been paid for with the blood of Martin Luther King and John Kennedy. Sadly, I was mistaken because racial and class divide still holds an ugly hold on our society.
The racist "spokesperson" has created a wall for which all racist ideology can get behind. Russ Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Mike Savage, and Bill O'Reilly serve the purpose of rationalizing specialist, whose primary aim is to bring racist views to debate status. One of the end result to this dynamic is "polling for bigots" who make claims that their racist ideologies are supported by the American people, and, here comes another safeguard, any attempt to silence their reasoning is stepping on their first amendment rights.
Actually, the debate defense was made most affective by the Bush administration. How do you think he got away with spying, eavesdropping, and torture? They simply presented their defense as a debate. Even the strongest Democrats are scared to be scene as shutting down freedom of speech.
At what point do we as a growing nation make sure we are not stepping on are own toes? Does every move forward have to be followed by two moves backward? In America the great, we need to preserve the progression paid for by honorable leaders before us.
Joseph
Rush Limbaugh himself used to be on welfare and/or collect unemployment benefits.
THANK YOU.
njguy93@yahoo.com
Limbaugh plays to racists...
I am a white middle-class man from the South... the red state South. As far back as I can remember racism has been rampant in the South... sometimes in subtle forms, sometimes blatant and ugly. I have seen a great deal of hatred towards black people. In my line of work over the years I've gotten to know many people of different colors and of different economic levels... and I've met too many good people of different races, many of them poor, to harbor any hatred for any race. I can't say the same for many, many of my fellow Southerners. When they complain of crime it is done with a hatred of blacks. When they criticize welfare it is said with a hatred for blacks. When they criticize affirmative action it is done with a hatred of blacks. When they speak of any black leaders or of any custom, institution or law that helps black people it is done with a hatred of blacks. There are wealthy, blue-blood types who would not be caught dead associating with a black. There are knuckle-draggers who still sport the Confederate battle flag under the guise of preserving "Southern heritage", but it's really a symbol of their hatred of blacks. These people form part of the Republican base... a large part in the South. Many of these people think Rush Limbaugh is the smartest man in America and that he speaks for them. Rush Limbaugh is smart. He's smart enough to know his audience and what motivates them. And he smart enough to speak in codes that many of his audience perceive as affirmation of their hatred of blacks. Perhaps there are Limbaugh ditto-heads who don't hate blacks... and perhaps who can intellectualize their opposition to many laws, customs and institutions that benefit blacks. For them, Limbaugh's well-designed homilies may not conjure up hatred for blacks... they think Rush is simply intellectually clever. But Rush knows that many of his audience hear his remarks differently... they hear his remarks as affirmation of their hateful beliefs. They know Rush can't "come right out and say it" but they believe that Rush shares their beliefs about "n*gg*rs". The reason I believe Rush Limbaugh is a racist is because I've heard too many hateful racists, first-hand, lionoze Rush Limbaugh as a man who speaks for them... but of course, they acknowledge that Limbaugh can't use more offensive words or be more blatant because the liberal "establishment" would get him kicked off the air. But Limbaugh is too smart for me to believe that it is only accidental that he is perceived this way by hateful, racist Southerners. Limbaugh knows exactly what he's doing... and that is to divide the country into left and right regardless how much hate is necessary. I'm not saying all Rush Limbaugh listeners are racist. And I can't speak to racism in the rest of the country, but I've been surrounded by it all my life in the South... and Rush Limbaugh is a hero to hateful bigots here. Rush Limbaugh wouldn't have it any other way.
What you have posted says it all. But there's more, and in previous posts, more than one comment has been brought up about "soft racism." Northerners have got it bad like that, it's just that it comes on in more subtle ways.
One of the biggest reasons why we are still dealing with this is because we have not dealt with it as a nation. It has always been the elephant in the room. Other nations around the world look at us and see clearly our social condition, which is why we have lost credibility when it comes to race relations. The Iraq situation is just a prime example of what I am talking about. The people who started this war did not understand the difference between Sunni, Shia, and Kurd. Ask Bush right now what are the differences and he could not give an educated answer. All they saw was an opportunity to divide and conquer.
The Iraqis are not stupid. They won't listen to us because they see how we treat each other. The world sees it. And they know that we are a racist society.
Back to Rush. Rush is a tool, literally. Hannity, O'HelpMe, SavageIdiot, all of them, serve a purpose as the Fools Who Keep Up Mess. By keeping up mess, the folks who capitalize on chaos economics make more money. Regular folks outnumber rich folks, and they know that the day everyone comes together as a unified front againts them, their rule is finished. When you are busy blaming and fighting everyone but the real enemy, they got ya. No conspiracy theory, just a tactic that is as old as time itself.
If you notice, it seems like the people who come on this site that cause problems all have the same M.O. Lack of arguement, no information, lots of wrong information, love to name call. But in the end, they get busted and run away.
"By keeping up mess, the folks who capitalize on chaos economics make more money."
Exactly... In my family we all started out as Democrats but many have become Republicans. The irony is that a lot of them are either working people or middle-class folks with homes in homogenized white suburbs. They have new cars, boats and a few dollars in the bank... the American dream. And they all have the same predictable Republican fears and prejudices about minorities; and how the Democrats want to give everything they've earned to minorities... with their tax dollars. They refuse to see poverty as a chronic, corrosive condition that any civillized country should try to alleviate, not only for humanitarian reeasons but because it would lift the entire country. What they've been led to believe is that to alleviate poverty it would have to come out of their share of the American dream. They think they're doing well (and they are) but fail to appreciate the disproprtionate wealth that exists in a few who benefit from Republican policies and tax breaks. They complain if poor blacks get a break but say nothing when ExxonMobil made 39.5 billion dollars last year (36.5 billion dollars the year before) much of it because of Republican policies. They say nothing about someone like Dick Cheney parlaying a career in governmental service into a net worth of around 100 million dollars. All they're worried about is that for poor people to get lifted up it will come out of their share... that's what they've been told. That fuels the animosity towards poor blacks. In the meantime, the well-connected continue to accumulate obscene wealth. But the Republicans throw the working people and the middle-class a few bones and play to their fears... and they're happy.
I have never read a mor eloquent description of the Limbaugh audiece. Very nice Irony.
@Savage, you did admit racism still exists so who do you think this affects? Even if there is "reverse discrimination" 30 or so years of it cannot overcome 300 years of discrimination does it now?
It wouldn't be a new week without Limbaugh saying something racist, would it?
What about the likelihood of poor, undereducated and easily-influenced "white trash" "being taken care of by the Government all their lives"?
Perhaps by substituting "whites" for "blacks" in the original item, the reader will obviously understand just how much of a racist in the Archie Bunker/Alf Garnett vein Rush Limbaugh is, using the medium of talkback radio.
And defending such as one with "winning of hearts and minds," howbeit poor, undereducated and easily-influenced.
Most young black men I know have been taken care of by their family and themselves for their whole lives.
Huh? I just realized something. After the past couple of weeks where Weinerrocks has started posting, I see a pattern. He screams about using logic to attack liberals. But reality shows that he rarely actually says anything logical. They are just moronic, boring attempts at arguing.
Logic?
But the pattern I was speaking of earlier is simple. We "liberals" post paragraphs worth of information and facts, we research and prove our points. He comes on here and posts 2-3 sentences at most. He never proves his points or really argues, he shouts some mentally simple talking point hand feed to him by mr. weiner and thinks, "well that answers that question, arguement done, I win."
If you can't read Weinerrocks I am sorry, but perhaps you should read a little before you post or try to argue with the people on this forum. I would like to have an actual debate with someone, not the trash you believe to be a "logical" arguement.
BTW: back on topic, Rush is racist and I believe anyone who believes affirmative action is reverse racism is someone who is truly ignorant of history.
First of all, I do give the facts...I realize that facts and logic destroys liberal arguments such as the fact that affirmative action IS reverse racism. The simple fact of the matter is that in order to have a true meritocracy the BEST candidate should be chosen from all demographics. Here's a question, why does no one complain when for example, an Asian-american excels past anyone? Did they not have a rough past in America? Paid pennies on the dollar to build the railroads and later stuck in detention camps during WW2, by a democrat I might add, but yet somehow they've overcome their past and as a culture excel in academics. But yet no one says we need rules so as to allow less asian-americans enrollment in college or scholarships. The whole thing comes down to soft-racism, the kind that Jesse Jackson and Al Sharton types love. If you tell a group of people that they need special treatment and are not good enough to compete with other ethnic groups long enough they will buy in to the victim mentality. Yes the country doesn't have a stellar record IN THE PAST but today we have gone in a complete different direction. The playing field,for the most part, is level. Yes some people are born better off but the beauty of this country is that through hard work and dedication ANYONE can be successful, just ask Bill Clinton. This fallicy that if you are born to a certain ethnicty is just a way to impose on people of that ethnicity a victim's mentality so they think the problem is still the biggest problem in America. Racism is not eradicated by any means but it is not even close to a major problem, especially in our institutions of higher learning. I would contend that if someone is intelligent enough or talented enough to get into a good school but do not have the money they can either get a student loan or simply join the military the way I did.
Tim,
I know that you believe you are being logical. The point I and others have been trying to make is that in order to make a logical argument it has to be logical every step of the way. In other words, if you just assert some stuff that isn't true, or you have no way of knowing is true, you're no longer making a logical argument, just ranting.
affirmative action IS reverse racism
It's not. Remember the formula prejudice + power = racism? If there is no power, there can be no racism. I don't gainsay that there are problems with giving preference to a disadvantaged group in order to overcome disadvantages, so if you have a better approach, I'd like to hear about it. Proclaiming a "color blind society" (i.e. waving a magic wand) is not a solution.
If you tell a group of people that they need special treatment and are not good enough to compete with other ethnic groups long enough they will buy in to the victim mentality
This argument relies on the idea that racism ended at some point in the past, and was immediately supplanted by the "victim mentality." Other than raw assertion, do you have some basis for this argument?
The playing field, for the most part, is level.
Is it? Again, do you have any evidence for this?
Arguing from assertion, however good it may feel, is not logic, Tim. It's much more interesting to debate someone who makes strong arguments and backs them up with facts - the commenter "Lemoc" comes to mind. You obviously have the passion and if you had some more discipline in your arguments you would be a force to be reckoned with...
I would add something to this.
Many of the posters on this site will bring out an initial argument and then ignore the questions that people have posted for them. Then they will continue to make the same arguments over and over again in subsequent posts.
If you cannot defend your argument or answer simple questions about your thinking process then don't expect people to take it seriously.
YOU are a flat out idiot. You think ( and I use the term loosely) that the word FACT means the things you SAY. You think the word logic means any string of nonsense and stupidity you regurgitate on this screen. You will never know if facts and logic destroy a liberal argument unless you actuall find out what those things are and TRY THEM. As of now a doorknob is more logical and a goldfish knows more about Sumerian cuneiform than you do about facts OR logic
Which do you think has more of an effect: the subtle racism of lowered expectations, or the historical impact of centuries of overt racism, systematic slavery and discrimination, and the denial of rights and property to people based on race ideology?
Your example about Asian minority groups is indeed instructive, but it only demonstrates that the history of all minorities cannot be reduced to a single narrative of a "rough past". You're equating the low pay that free workers earned on railroads to two centuries of systematic and institutional SLAVERY and nearly another hundred years of legal discrimination and segregation. Don't you think the latter might have a more severe and sustained historical effect? It isn't just a "rough past" -- it is a century of forced labor and theft based on ancestry. And yet you claim that the REAL reason blacks have disproportionately less wealth, health and education is because black people made bad choices and bought into a "victim mentality".
Let me ask you, then, why you think that black people are so bad at making the right choice? No matter how hard you protest that you're not a racist, you always come back to this implicit claim that black people deserve their poorer conditions because of their own actions. You're arguing that they don't have the same "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" attitude that Asian minority groups have.
Your "logical" argument boils down to this contradiction: you're claiming that today anyone can overcome poverty and discrimination... unless you're black, in which case you're predisposed to make bad choices and are prone to be suckered into thinking that you're a helpless victim, as evidenced by black people's failure to erase their economic, educational, and health disparities.
This isn't logic: this is a convenient blindness to historical and material forces.
And by the way, enough already with the pathetic chest-beating about how great you are at winning arguments with your scary smarts. You'll know you have a good argument if it's strong enough to stand on its own without you serving as your own cheerleader. It's making you sound incredibly insecure. If you believe in your argument, then let it speak for itself.
Y, they sure have - that's why so many white kids are lining up to be declared black, so they can ride that gravy train too.
It's no surprise to me when Rush ejaculates nonsense like this, but it is surprising that the mouthbreathers and knuckledraggers that listen to him come around to places like this, which are populated with intelligent people, and try to make hay by repeating the jibber-jabber they've heard from the radio.
ps Rush - Young WHITE boys are the biggest consumers of rap music, you lying bastard. Young blacks are so busy being "taken care of" by the government that they can't afford to buy rap cd's, or computers with which to download the music.
Another argument that proves the insanity of affirmative action. The reason there are more white people buying rap than minorities is the same reason there are more white owned businesses, ceo's, millionaires, SOLDIERS, congressman, etc., simply put the majority of people in the U.S. are white and therefore will be overepresented in such things
Here's another one: when you make up an argument, being made by no one, that is really easy to disprove, that is called a "straw man argument."
As the pointy-eared guy used to say, "highly illogical."
savagerocks - give yourself a break from the radio and read some books.
you don't have anything TO debate, kid, just a bunch of wildly biased assertions, and a hankerin t'fight somebody. you're obviously a little cowardly too, 'cause when real men want a fight, they go down to the bar and pick a real one.
run along now, and stop bothering the smart people.
Yes, I'm sure you're extremely intelligent to just parrot the "oh the white devils trying to keep everyone down" argument. Such revolutionary thought
No one here said anything about white devils trying to keep everyone down. So who were you quoting when you put that expression in quotation marks, besides the voices in your head? The only people you're defeating with your arguments are a chorus of imaginary liberals in your mind.
I'm serious about this: get some help. That's not an attack -- that's an honest suggestion that I'm giving you out of concern.
All the best,
-Vystostky
Still there Tom? Or are you waiting for one of your lib brothers to jump in?
Brothers? What are you incenuating?
Ladies and gentleman...we've lost Tom. I love this website. It gives me a chance to workout my mind on your weak "america and white people are evil arguments". It is enjoyable to see just how many of you guys pile on at the same time and basically just bring the same, claim of oh you must be a racist, blah, blah etc. BTW, if I didn't get to any of your rebuttles I apoligize since I'm basically debating about 15 different brain dead libs at the same time
Listen savage weiner rocks....you keep that alleged mind of yours working. You're very funny, but will take some practice to catch up with comedian and racist Rush Limabaaagh.
PS - waiting for more pearls of wisdom.
Yes, you've gotten some of that. You've also gotten some considered, thoughtful responses from a number of people here. Blanket condemnations of everyone who doesn't agree with you - delivered in a dismissive tone with lots of misspelled insults - is not a way to get respect for your arguments.
You are obviously torn between trolling and debating. I urge you to turn away from the Dark Side...
It is obvious that you are the stupidest and most ignorant poster on this site. It is obvious that your world is one of fantasy and delusion. Your ignorance is appalling. You really think you are making points when all you are doing is regurgitating the propaganda parrot talking points SKWWAAAAAK reverse descrimination, SKWAAAKKK, logic and facts, SKWAAAAAKKK. I appolgize to REAL parrots everywhere which are obviously much more intelligent than rocksinhishead. What I do find suprising is your delusional nerve. Calling US braindead when I there is more higher brain function evident in things I FLUSH in the morning than anything I have EVER read in any single post you have EVER made
I'm with Rush on this one. The government ought to stop taking care of young blacks and start caring of older drug addicted whites with marital problems.