Donohue used "gook joke" in debate about purported anti-Catholicism
In the last week, Bill Donohue, president of the Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights, one of the most vocal critics of the hiring by John Edwards' presidential campaign of two bloggers who Donohue characterized as "anti-Catholic vulgar trash-talking bigots," has been quoted by The New York Times and the Associated Press, and interviewed by MSNBC and CNN over the controversy. But as Media Matters for America noted, Donohue's history of controversial comments and inconsistent outrage was largely ignored in the coverage of the controversy.
On September 25, 2002, Donohue appeared as a guest on the now-defunct MSNBC talk show Donahue, hosted by Phil Donahue. Donohue appeared on the program with Andy Hao, who was then a sophomore at Columbia University, to discuss a joke Hao made at the 2002 Liberty Cup, a football game between Columbia and Fordham University. In a September 19, 2003, article on the annual game, the Columbia Daily Spectator, Columbia's student newspaper, reported that at the 2002 contest, the "Columbia University Marching Band, long known for its clever and often off-color jokes, made one that eventually gained national media attention." According to the Spectator, Hao, who was the "Marching Band Poet Laureate," "referred to 'Fordham tuition going down like an altar boy,' angering many students and fans from the Jesuit Catholic-run university."
Donohue subsequently appeared on Donahue with Hao to discuss the joke and promised to "demonstrate that the kid's a phony." Donohue then added that he had mentioned a hypothetical to Hao earlier that day on a different MSNBC program: "[W]e could hypothesize that there'd be a Columbia University pingpong team made of Asians, and somebody goes out there and says 'All gooks go home.' " Donohue finished his demonstration by asking: "Now, what's wrong with a gook joke?" After Hao responded that "the gook joke's completely irrelevant," Donohue stated: "All I'd ask for you is show the same degree of respect for Catholics as you would for Asians. You don't like the gook jokes? I don't like them, either. So just wise up." After a commercial break, Donohue returned to his argument and asked: "What about the gook jokes? I want to know, why don't you have a sense of humor about gook jokes?"
On February 13, the website Crooks and Liars posted a transcript of the exchange.
From the September 25, 2002, edition of MSNBC's Donahue:
DONOHUE: Look, the kid's a phony, and he proved that to me --
DONAHUE: Well, don't start calling names on me right out the box here.
DONOHUE: Well, no, no, no, no. I will demonstrate -- I will demonstrate that the kid's a phony.
HAO: All right, let's do it.
DONOHUE: I dealt with that --
HAO: Bring it on.
DONOHUE: Look, just hold on here. You had your time. Look, the kid's a phony, and here's why: I dealt with him earlier today on an MSNBC show, and I said we could hypothesize that there'd be a Columbia University pingpong team made of Asians, and somebody goes out there and says, "All gooks go home." So I asked him about my gook joke. And guess what? Andy's sense of humor just collapsed. He found that offensive. You see what you are? You're a phony. You're a typical Ivy League little brat who thinks it's OK to dump on Catholics, but you don't like my gook joke. Now, what's wrong with a gook joke?
HAO: Can I respond?
DONOHUE: Yeah.
HAO: All right. Here's the thing. I mean, first of all, it's completely a false analogy.
DONOHUE: No, it isn't. You attacked my religion!
[crosstalk]
HAO: I would like to speak.
DONAHUE: Bill, Bill, let's behave like Catholics here.
[laughter]
HAO: I mean, the gook joke's completely irrelevant, while the Catholic joke is a satire of an event that's going on. The gook joke's just throwing on racial slurs. I mean --
DONOHUE: Oh, let me tell you something --
HAO: Your members and your Catholics should be very proud of you.
[crosstalk]
DONOHUE: No, let me tell you something. We can go right down the line. You want to talk about Asians? We can do it with Jews. We can do it with African-Americans.
DONAHUE: All right, let's --
DONOHUE: Everybody knows the dirty laundry in every other group. And all I'm saying is this: Civility should rule. You ought to know that. You go to a fancy school. All I'd ask for you is to show the same degree of respect for Catholics as you would for Asians. You don't like the gook jokes? I don't like them, either. So just wise up.
[...]
HAO: Behind the argument in your joke, you're saying that if it offends somebody or here -- you call it uncivil. It shouldn't be said. But where do we draw the line? I mean, if it offends somebody, should it not be said?
DONOHUE: Common sense and --
HAO: How many people should it offend?
DONOHUE: -- and common decency should know that you don't generalize from the individual to the collective. We know there's a problem in the Catholic Church. We know there's a problem in a lot of --
HAO: Well, that --
DONOHUE: -- demographic groups and institutions. What is wrong is when you generalize from one group to the other. I used to be a professor. I'd like to teach you, kid. You might learn something.
DONAHUE: You know, I tell you what --
HAO: Nothing good from you.
DONOHUE: Oh, you'd learn a lot. You'd learn about virtue.
HAO: For Catholics.
DONAHUE: You know, you're being very patronizing to the young man.
HAO: That's exactly right.
DONAHUE: And I don't think we're going to -- you know, he doesn't have to do a perp walk here. He's not going to jail for this.
DONOHUE: Nor should he. I never asked for that.
DONAHUE: And you know, I think if you just relax, move on -- we can't expect our culture not to -- there's a thousand jokes that are stemming from the Catholic Church's scandal.
DONOHUE: Let me -- let me tell you something, Phil. Phil, I watch you all the time because you're so good. You really are. I want to tell you something. Two nights ago, you had Reverend Jesse Jackson on. He's complaining and gets excised for DVDs.
DONAHUE: True. Barbershop, the movie.
DONOHUE: Barbershop. Exactly.
DONAHUE: Yeah.
DONOHUE: Now, you -- you raised the issue of censorship.
DONAHUE: I did.
DONOHUE: But you -- see, because you're sensitive to African-Americans more than you are to Roman Catholics, and that's certainly true of this guy.
[crosstalk]
DONAHUE: I'll tell him when he comes in.
[crosstalk]
DONAHUE: We'll be back in just a moment.
[...]
DONAHUE: Your reference to oral sex and the Catholic Church scandal in your -- as the poet laureate, made people crazy. Here's what --
HAO: Made some people laugh too.
DONAHUE: Made -- you make --
DONOHUE: A lot of bigots laughed at it.
[...]
DONAHUE: How are you instructed by this, Andrew? Did you have any idea that this kind of -- you know, it is a dormitory joke, and you brought it right out there in front of Mom, Dad. You may have had some grandmothers there.
HAO: I think it's a joke that should be out there. I mean, people have to have a sense of humor. And every joke you bring out, some people aren't going to get it.
DONOHUE: Yeah, like the gook joke!
[crosstalk]
DONAHUE: If you joined us late, you're not -- you don't know what we're talking about. One of the references in -- as he announced to the whole crowd at the football game, whose tuition is going down?
HAO: Fordham.
DONAHUE: "Fordham's tuition is going down" --
HAO: "Like an altar boy."
DONAHUE: -- "like an altar boy."
DONOHUE: What about the gook jokes? I want to know, why don't you have a sense of humor about gook jokes?
HAO: I mean, I -- what I'm saying is --
[crosstalk]
DONOHUE: Why don't you lighten up a little?
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Go*k Joke?
Does Donahue have no soul? Is there any group that is not immune to this hater?
SAVE DEMOCRACY, VOTE FOR A DEMOCRAT!
I think Donohue has finally found an age group suitable for his brand of punditry, only this teenager has a much to high functioning intellect. I think the show should pair him with a gang banger from juevy!
That would be a real exchange of ideas in parity!! They could end the show with a drive-by shooting!!
You're the hater. He's standing up against hate.
Yes. Donohue sure stood up against that hateful "g00k". Didn't he?
He has also stood up against "secular Jews" who "would sodomize their own mothers and smile about it."
I'd have him on my side in a fight anyday.
"I'd have him on my side in a fight anyday"
-----
Then your side is automatically the losing side.
Is that you, Boxer?
I thought they took you away to the knackers?
I'm thinkin' he is napoleon.
Squealer.
His point was that either all ethnic/religious jokes are okay, or they are all not.
You can't be sensitive to Muslim/ black/ asian/ jokes, unless you are also sensitive to Catholic jokes too.
Moreover, if you want the right to say Catholic jokes, then you can't turn around and say that jokes about other groups affend you.
All or nothing.
Bill Donohue is a big blow hard. He shouldn't have spoken this way in 2005. However, I'm not sure how (or even why) MMFA turned his vehemence against the Edwards' campaign bloggers into a cause celebre. While neither blogger was working for Edwards when they posted their rather hateful anti-Catholic rhetoric, it's hard to maintain the position that their messages are somehow offset by the fact that Bill Donohue himself is a jerk. Two wrongs, in other words, don't make a right. I move we all ignore Bill Donohue completely, but we also don't defend the writings of Edwards' campaign workers when they are patently offensive. It's not okay to speak insultingly about people by making fun of their race, gender, or creed. Agreed?
Fair point about sensitivity applied uniformly...
However, for a public spokesperson Bill Donohue has such a primitive way of expressing his outrage that any possible validity to his point is lost in his crudeness. You may not have noticed this, but in this particular exchange Bill Donohue was not telling any perceivable "joke" about "g**ks"... he was simply repeating the slur, "g**k", over and over again.
Donohue found the Columbia student's joke offensive, but it was actually a joke... and it was clever. But Bill Donohue's purpose in life is to be as aggressively rude and offensive as possible to anyone perceived to criticize the Catholic Church. If you criticize the Catholic Church, you pay the price of suffering the wrath of Bill Donohue... simple as that. Bill Donohue is like the guy hired by the Mafia to break your legs if you p*ss the boss off.
Donohue has a point BUT he went about it in the wrong way. He could have told an "Asian" joke without using a slur. Totally unnecessary.
Jeter:
Bill Donohue's job is to punish people... anyone he thinks slanders the Catholic Church. At first I thought he was the wrong man to act as a spokeperson for a religious institution. But look at the Catholic League web site. Bill Donohue is perfect for the job. He's the enforcer... a crude thug actually.
Does that make Donohue...
Dicky Cheney or Karl's Rove?
Just look what happened to "The Hammer."
More like a character from a "Godfather" movie who breaks legs for the mob... but goes to Mass on Sunday. ;>)
I've been watching this guy and he is so combative it puzzled me how he could represent such a major religious institution like the Catholic Church. I would have thought they would have someone more diplomatic. But then I took a look at the Catholic Leauge web site and it was clear that the group puts just enough distance between itself, as a "lay" organization, and official church sanction that they can do what they want. And it also becomes clear that their function is to punish and make life miserable for anyone who crosses (pardon the pun) the Catholic Church.
Donohue is truly an unpleasant character...
Naughty, naughty! You made a joke about the Church!
Does Donohue hew to the old standards - stocks and floggings - or is he a more modern inquisitor? In either case, I'm ratting you out - you - you - . . . jokester!
Was it just me or does Donohue remind you of Michael Richards in that odd exchange? He kept repeating "g**ks" over and over.
"His point was that either all ethnic/religious jokes are okay, or they are all not."
Ridiculous. Some jokes are offensive, some are not, just as some are funny and some are not. Why can't one choose between them? The scale is a continuum, so like all such lines it is indistinct, but that is no reason for such an absolute pronouncement.
People choose to be Catholic, they don't choose to be Asian, Black, or even white. If you don't like the molestation caused by the church's repression of sex, than you should leave the church. You can't stop being Asian.
No, the altar boy joke while offensive was a reference to a specific well known current event. Donahue didnt tell a joke at all he just used a racial slur, there was no joke. So its not the same. The joke itself didnt ridicule Catholocism. It made fun of SOME criminals within the religion doing something the religion itself teaches is wrong. Donahue just made a racial slur, there wasnt even a stab at a joke, not of a specific group of perverts WITHIN a race but a form of ridicule of the whole race its not the same. Was it a cheap shot at a religion dealing with a sensative and embarrassing problem? Oh yes, was it offensive sure. However it was NOT an attack on Catholicism itself which after all does not teach child molestation is ok. What Donahue did was different, worse and just plain stupid
His point was that either all ethnic/religious jokes are okay, or they are all not. You can't be sensitive to Muslim/ black/ asian/ jokes, unless you are also sensitive to Catholic jokes too. - from Ldoren1626
You're committing a fundamental error in equating ethnic and religious jokes. Ethnicity is something you're born with. You can't honestly abandon, reject or renounce ethnicity, it's a fact of your biology. (I'll leave for the moment the fact that genetically it's virtually a nonexistent difference) Presumably religion is a choice, putting aside cultural pressures. If someone realizes he/she has no faith or a different faith they cease to be a member of that church, period.
Surely anyone can see the difference between ridiculing features with which a person is born versus ridiculing them for things which they have chosen to make a part of their lives. Therefore, comparing ethnic jokes with religious jokes is a false equivalence.
Bill, you overestimate people's intelligence.
So Muslim jokes are okay, b/c people can stop being Muslim?
You were the people who refused to show the Prophet Mohammed.
They were simply pointing out a substantial flaw in Donohue's analogy.
You will have to decide for yourself what is funny to you and what isn't.
Muslim jokes are fine by me. Fire away.
The joke wasnt about Catholocism. Do Catholics teach it is ok to molest children? The joke was about a group of criminals, brought to the attention of the world, WITHIN the Catholic religion. Also Donahue didnt even try to tell a joke he just kept making a racial slur so a more relevant question would be, is it ok to tell jokes about the terrorist extremists WITHIN Islam and is it the same as calling Jewish people... I think you get the point
So Muslim jokes are okay, b/c people can stop being Muslim? - from Ldoren1626
First, you didn't see where I made any comment on which jokes were "okay" because I don't generally make jokes about religion. That's my personal choice and I do make exceptions (Scientology, Shatnerology and the like). Frankly, I've occasionally laughed at some pretty good religion jokes. There are some regional Lutheran jokes that might not be understood as well on the coasts, but we enjoy them here.
That said, I believe Muslim jokes are every bit as legitimate as are Catholic, Protestant, Hindu, Jewish or any religion's jokes. Open_Mind was correct, I was pointing out the glaringly obvious flaw in Donohue's logic. He was not making the valid point that some of his defenders want to pretend he did.
Yes, Muslims jokes are OK.
Any subject is OK to joke about.
If we're made in God's image, wouldn't that mean that he has a sense of humor?
But the jokes must be well told. Hao told a joke. Donahue just spewed hateful, bigoted bile. If you wingnuts want to keep using "comedy" as a defense against charges of bigotry and hate, then you'd better learn to tell a joke.
That goes for the rest of the right wing comedians like Limbaugh and Coulter.
I hate a dirty joke I do,Unless it's told by someone who -Knows how to tell it.
- Captain Jeffrey T. Spaulding words & music -Kalmar/Ruby
A man standing with a sign saying "G**ks go home" at any event, whether a ping-pong tounament with Asian participants or not, is not a joke of any kind. It is just Donohue's bigotry coming to the fore again.
The man can't open his mouth without hatred just oozing forth.
I'm getting sick of people conflating these things. Religeon is ideology, more or less, ok? Rejecting the worldview of someone is not the same as rejecting their race, sexual orientation or gender. It is laughable that a straight white bourgeois could consider themselves "oppressed" in some way because they are catholic. Just ridiculous.
You speak for Catholics too. Keep pileing the bull on. This happened 5 years ago.
What happened five years ago?
Sorry, just re-read the post...
What are you talking about? Are only Catholics allowed to have an opinion on this creep, Donohue?
Has Donohue changed his views in the last 5 years? He doesn't seem like he has change much in the last 500 years from his regressive opinions and logic.
It happened five years ago, so... it never happened?
You do realize how few Catholics this clown actually speaks for don't you?
You can't poll a question like that as people will say the politically correct thing.
Your argument is false. Not all jokes or comments need to be or should be treated equally. A joke that is designed to be satirical, poking fun at a current event, even at the expense of it's members, is completely different than making comments about a particular race or someone's immutable physical or ethnic characteristics. It's common sense that dictates good taste, and not all jokes or comments should be treated equally.
Mr. Donahue was put in a difficult position because a number of clergy were accused and convicted of molesting children for a number of years, and the church hirarchy were complicite in covering it up. In that the Church itself should be questioned and part of any dialog includes irony or humor.
However, making racist comments does not fall in the same catagory.
It easy to choose to paint with a broad or narrow brush when we want to illuminate the problems others have but rarely when discussing our own inconsistencies.
Boy the way Glen Miller played...
songs that made the hit parade....
Guys like us, we had it made...
those were the days!
And my favorite line from the "All in the Family" theme song..
"Mister, we could use a man like Herbert Hoover again.."
I think we've got one!!!!!
The one that I always remember is "Gee our old LaSalle ran great." Back in the pre-internet days, I actually taped the theme song and played it over and over again - never got that line till I saw it in print, years later...
If I'm not mistaken, on their hundredth (or some other milestone episode) they filmed the song live for an audience, and purposely sang that line very clearly because nobody knew what they were singing.
The closing instrumental theme (over the credits), 'Remembering You,' was co-written by Archie Bunker himself, Carroll O'Connor.
I noticed that none of you mentioned the lines: Didn't need no welfare state, Everybody pulled his weight. Hmm.....
Why? Would it have made some kind of point? In context with lines like
"Mister, we could use a man like Herbert Hoover again.."
How seriously was it to be taken?
Perhaps some people don't quite get that the character of Archie Bunker was intended to be a parody, not a role model.
I never ever understood the attraction somepeople have to "Archie Bunker" a bigot and a racist.
I loved that show. I really liked that they made Archie a real person. He was a bigot, fairly ignorant, the precurser to todays repeat and regurgitate rightwingers. On the other hand he was basically a good person, he was generous had a decent heart caring, not a one dimensional villian.
Becauae he was such an obvious parody of bigots and racists. If Rush Limbaugh was just acting, it would be funny. If Stephen Colbert really believed what he said, he wouldn't be funny (you could laugh at him, the way I laugh at Rush, but not laugh with him).
Pardon my mistype. No excuses anymore.
Any rational person could see that the whole intent of the show was to make Archie Bunker and later Geore Jefferson look like fools and biotry in general as something only foolish people engaged in. I was a very young teen when that show came on and I got that. The show also showed a true friendship between Edith Bunker and Louise Jefferson and their kids were also good buds. Norman Lear is a Liberal you know and All in the family was pure genius.
That's OK, Dorris. I never understood Meathead but his legacy lives on.
"I noticed that none of you mentioned the lines: Didn't need no welfare state, Everybody pulled his weight. Hmm....."
-----
Yes, those lines are very funny, considering it's the red states that get far more in welfare than they pay out in taxes, and vice versa for the blue states, which are, as the lines say, "pulling their weight."
You never tire of displaying ignorance, do you?
If something/someone, etc. is so "easy to refute", why do you always depend on insults for your "refutations"?
Actually he pointed out some interesting facts, which I see you don't dispute.
From EASYTOREFUTEWINGNUTS: "it's the red states that get far more in welfare than they pay out in taxes, and vice versa for the blue states, which are, as the lines say, "pulling their weight.""
It's EASYTOSPOUTRHETORIC but would you mind backing up your claims? Thanks.
Gee, that was hard.
Wow, it really IS easy to refute wingnuts!
I'm ROTFL, Valdicktorian. Your "proof" is almost too funny for words.
This man gives all Catholics a bad name. Donohue needs a good beating from a Nun.
Donohue is an ambarrassment to humanity...period.
You're the spokesman for humanity now. How is the pay?
Maybe it was one nun beating too many that made him the kind of man he is today.
Or maybe he needed just one more.
Sounds like bigoted anger. Exactly what you accuse others of having.
"Sounds like bigoted anger. Exactly what you accuse others of having." --animalfarm
Right back at ya!
"Civility should rule"
That would explain why this so called christian thinks it ok to spout off racist or homophobic garbage. The old "oh, you offended me, now I get to get even!" Jesus sanctioned christianity.
William Donohue is a racist, ignorant, GOP hack who confuses Catholicism with Conservativism. He uses his Catholicism to promote " liberal bashing ".
He is a deplorable disgusting slimeball.
gonna go out on a limb here...
Think Donahoe knows the answer to the joke I told the other day on the Beck thread? ;)
What was the joke?I am glad Media Matters is exposing this sc*mbag. This guy is very dangerous.
You're the ones trying to tempt somebody to attack him.
I'm sorry, who is tempting anyone to attack anyone?
"Think Donahoe knows the answer to the joke I told the other day on the Beck thread?"
-----
I'm sure he thinks he does, but it's a safe bet it's not the same answer you posted.
Allow me to reiterate...
Bill Donohue's job with the Catholic League is not to persuade; it's not to convince; it's not to debate; it's not to convey a positive message; it's not to articulate the defense of a position; it's not to further the teachings of the Catholic Church... His job is to punish anyone who says anything he considers anti-Catholic. Apparently he enjoys his line of work...
I would have to say I agree!!!!
Keep saying it till becomes true.
Is that your personal motto? Thanks for sharing.
:^)
I dunno, Animal... Donohue's well-documented remarks (along with his demeanor, along with the Cathilic League's maofesto would seem to back up what I said about Donohue's role as an enforcer... to make life miserable for peple who are considered by him to be anti-Catholic. Judge for yourself, though... And I'll finish my remarks by saying something I've never heard Donohue say... "God bless you." And I'm not even religious like I'm sure Donohue is...
Donohue Defends “g00k joke” as Asian slur…?
Gee, that Bill Donohue sure likes to say “g00k joke” a lot. It’s seems as if the good-natured, goombah-Donohue has taken Andy Hao under his wing! Simply be repeating his reiterations repetitively, Donohue seemingly thinks the good-natured aspect of Hao might loose that blasé quality which old goombah-Donahue repeatedly covets. Unfortunately, “g00k” refers to someone of Korean, Vietnamese or Philippine descent. One wonders how come Donohue includes Chinese, Japanese & other Asians as well? Maybe Andy will learn something? With that said, [Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights president] Donohue can clearly continue to proudly spew his cherished, anti-Semitism unbiquitously.
I am still confused as to why this racist s*umbag is allowed to say these things and be taken seriously by the mainstream media?
Me too…!
Maybe Phil should’ve “bitch-slapped” Bill verbally?
That Dropped "does not" Requires Includement…does too!
The third-sentence from the end should read:
“One wonders how come Donohue does not include Chinese, Japanese & other Asians as well?
mea culpa…oy
There is something with the hard right that drives them to say heartless, cruel, demeaning things in public, often with very little rationale. They use the excuse of being "non-PC" to act like it is a sort of daring contrarian stance, but it just seems like garden-variety bigotry.
It sure looks like they find it really satisfying to just spew the hate out, as loudly and as publically as possible.
Typical Papist intolerance! What is it with US religious figures and their anti-Asian remarks? Pat Robertson just did the same thing:
http://blogdebogs.blogspot.com/2007/02/pat-robeltson-no-rikey-prastic-sulgely.html
Context is everything...
Bill Donohue would probably accuse me (loudly) of spliting-hairs but sometimes context is everything. In New Orleans there was recently a protest by a Catholic group (primarily non-local, I believe) over a Mardi Gras parade by a non-mainstream, and very irreverant, Carnival club, Krewe de Vieux. The themes of the floats in their anuual parades in the French Quarter are bawdy and very satirical... poking fun at polticians, religions, you name it. For example, I understand there is usually a float every year satirizing Jewish stereotypes but, to my understanding, it's mostly Jews on the float. Apparently last year there was a float poking fun at Catholics, to which the protesting Catholic group took offense and protested the parade this year. But the Catholic float was entirely satire, in a parade of other floats that are entirely satirical. Traditionally, Mardi Gras parades engage in satire, some more than others... but that's part of what Mardi Gras is about and this club is a particularly bawdy and irreverant group (probably a bunch of liberals).
If someone in, a serious manner, writes hate-filled lies or generalizations about the Catholic Church or misrepresents Church doctrine in a way to cause it harm (or against any group, for that matter) I could understand the ire of a Bill Donohue. But sophomoric satire... in a satirical setting? This MMFA piece speaks of a sophomoric (literally) colege satire by one school band poking fun at its rival during half-time activities at an athletic event. That's what college kids do at college football games.
Obviously there is a line somewhere that can be crossed, even with satire... or when it goes beyond just satire in fun. For example, Rush Limbaugh's "bubble-heads" may argue that he simply engages in innocent satire. The problem there is that the rest of his shows are otherwise so regularly and predictably punctuated by hateful tirades that it's hard to imagine his intent is simply innocent satire. Limbaugh has demonstrated he has another agenda and it's not a nice one.
I'm sure once Bill Donohue finds out about Krewe de Vieux he'll be in New Orleans raising hell about their parade. I hope they do a Bill Donohue float to welcome him and introduce him to Mardi Gras... Donohue sounds like he could learn to laugh at himself. ;>)
These spokes persons for any religious entity are against the ropes. As science chips away at their credibilty, they can sense that their days are numbered as one of human society's main power brokers. It's not surprising to me that they are lashing out like this. The numbers are falling fast, membership is dwindling, they can't recruit priests and nuns to replace the ones that are retiring. As more and more people realize that the Catholic church is no longer valid, people like this will become even more harsh, till finally they implode like a star that has used up all it's hydrogen.
Well now you've done it. There goes any hopes you had of being a democratic campaign blogger!
Man, I hope Bill Donohue doesn't find out where you live. ;>)
Well, your post would be clever if it were accurate. Overall Roman Catholic Church membership has not been decreasing, but has been increasing, even in the U.S. Also, the Church's record on science is not as one-sided as you assert; although the Vatican has at times been at odds with the scientific community, we can also thank Jesuits for some tremendous contributions to science and education.
You are correct that the Church is struggling with falling numbers with respect to the priesthood and religious...in the West. Meanwhile, the deaconate has actually grown. There seems to be a correlation between the economy and vocations. However, the actual reasons for decline in priesthood and religious vocations are probably more complex.
As for Bill, he just seems to be an overly fearful, narrowminded, control freak...not much unlike the Bush Administration, if you think about it.
I see we mostly agree about "Donohue the terrible" . Excuse my error regarding numbers of Catholics. I was misled by web sites like this
http://www.archstl.org/archives/sacramental/closed.html
reporting numerous parishes closing. Once I saw over one million hits on Google for "closed parishes" I assumed the worst.
The Catholic churche's handling (or actually non handling) of the molestation stuff makes it fair game. Any religious hypocrisy - and there is plenty of it - is fair game.
Right. Never generalize from the individual to the collective. And especially never listen to 'Ivy League Brats', i.e. any student who attends Fordham University. Wtf.
I have looked into the face of evil and it is Bill Donohue. He could be Karl Rove's older brother.
Ahhhh, now I get it. Many of you are defending the college kid's right to tell Catholic jokes since being Catholic is a choice and being Asian is not. I'm sure if Rush or Ann told some gay jokes you guys would be adamantly defending them as well.
Again as many have noted before, the joke was not about BEING Catholic. The joke functioned as a comment on a particularly ugly, and seemingly widespread, phenomenon occuring within the Catholic church. Additionally, it is pop culture wisdom (which is to say folklore) that altar boys have long been victimized. So your comment is foolish on that level.
Secondly, being gay is not a choice either. Indeed, sexuality is more a continuum than a binary system. Certainly, there are many who are strictly straight or strictly gay, but just as certainly there are many who fall into what would loosely be termed bisexual. So your comment is foolish on that level.
Lastly, comedy should be transgressive and laughter is resistance. The "going down" joke isn't all that funny, but it schematically it works well enough. The "g**k" "joke" is not a joke at all. It doesn't work to call into question power relations or force a different view of the situation on the listener. It's simply ugly and offensive. What would be funny is if the joke ended with a third person seeing this asked, "How could those guys with the signs be so cruel?"
"Oh, it's alright," said one of the ping pong players. "Those are just the College Republicans. The backs of the signs say "...with us ... and bring your balls."
If you noticed, my reference was to the posters on here who were making a defense based on "the choice of being catholic". IMO, the student and the speaker were both wrong....an ethnic slur does not constitute a joke, and a few gay priests does not represent a few hundred million people.
True the difference is the racist slur was what it was and the joke didnt REFERENCE nor accuse a few hundred million people but was aimed right at the PREDATORY PEDOPHILE priests
Anyway, "Fordham tuition going down like an altar boy".
The focus of the statement is "an altar boy", you have to do some serious bending to make a priest the focus of the joke.
You're being pretty concrete and literal about this. What on Earth precisely do you think the alter boys are "going down" on? It isn't hard! Oops. Or maybe it is.
;^)
Well.... You said Many of you are defending the college kid's right to tell Catholic jokes. So, you attacked other posters because, to you, they were defending the kid's RIGHT to tell Catholic jokes. Then you employed a subordinate clause since being Catholic is a choice and being Asian is not as an apparent slap at what you saw as the basis for this, in your mind, unwarranted defense.
Then you decided to bait other posters by cleverly analogizing that I'm sure if Rush or Ann told some gay jokes you guys would be adamantly defending them as well. First, I am greatly disturbed that you are a on first name basis with these two individuals. You would do well to disassociate yourself from their company as quickly as possible. Second, it was this statement by you which lead me to try to disabuse you of the sad strictures of essentialist thinking.
Indeed, your, let's call it, gay assertion caused me to look upon your skills at argumentation with a rather juandiced eye. Well, that and your snide opening line.
I think your argument would make more sense if your example was, say, Democrats or people who practice yoga. These are true choices, where the gender you are attracted to is not.
May seem off topic, but stick with me a minute. Do you support life imprisonment or the death penalty for pedophiles?
I have no opinion on the matter; it's not something I think a lot about.
You don't have an opinion on a "yes or no" question?
Actually it looked "either/or".
It's a really broad question. Pedophilia itself, as I understand it, is not against the law. Are you talking about touching a child inappropriately? Sexual molestation? Statutory rape? Forced rape?
Maybe you could just cut to the chase and make your point.
LOL. As Colbert says, "George W. Bush: great president or the greatest president?"
Can you tell us the day YOU decided to be heterosexual? Please let us know I am sure women the world over would love to make it a day of mourning
Now THAT was hilarious! Thanks solon.
He can't stop being Asian, but he can go back there. Try slandering the state chuch or the state over there.
Wow, I didn't know Asia was one monolithic, homogeneous country with one state apparatus and one state religion, nor did i know that being ethnically Asian was an automatic indicator of being from this selfsame Asian homeland either.
I guess somebody will have to re-write all of the social studies and geography books to cure us of our ignorance
I find it funny that the same sort of people who were easy to whip up into a genuine case of Anti-Catholic frenzy when JFK was running for president are now the same people who can be easily dispatched like the Wicked Witch's Flying Monkey Brigade to defend a denomination they would normally despise because a member of that faith who shares their various ideological psychoses exhorted them to do so in that spittle-flecked way that only they can truly understand.
A mind reader now. Good for you.
I think Donohue is almost certainly a wing nut. I don't support his politics one little bit. But you must indeed be anti-Catholic nuts yourselves if you can't see that Amanda's litte Q and A is deliberately constructed to be as insulting to Catholics as possible:Q: ‘What if Mary had taken Plan B after the Lord filled her with his hot, white, sticky Holy Spirit,’A: ‘You’d have to justify your misogyny with another ancient mythology.’Let me count the insults:After saying "yes" to God, she thinks better of it.The Holy Spirit is compared to male ejaculate.The doctrine of the Virgin Birth is called oppressive to women.Having previously enjoyed seeing you skewer Bush for his many lies, your gross insensitivity has caused me to reconsider; I now believe you don't give a damn about truth or fairness and are just pursuing a purely political agenda. BTWI definitely think Amanda, in particular, should have been fired. OTOH, Melissa didn't bother me at all. I can take being called a "Christofascist", its even comical since my politics are anything but.You can insult me all you want; just please don't insult my religion
WOW!! Donahue shows himself yet again to be an unabashed PRICK!
Not only is he a bigot - he is a smug, sanctimonious, arrogant ass... and that doesn't even bring the "Catholic" label to the table.
Makes me ashamed to have white, male, Irish heritage associated with myself. Oy!