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MSNBC's Carlson called NAACP "a sad joke that should be shut down"

August 26, 2007 1:46 pm ET

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On the August 24 edition of MSNBC's Tucker, while discussing reports that NFL player Michael Vick had pleaded guilty to federal conspiracy charges related to dogfighting, host Tucker Carlson asserted that the NAACP "has come out officially to defend Michael Vick against these charges, saying that they're racially motivated." Carlson, who described the NAACP as "a faithful arm really of the Democratic Party," went on to ask his guests, radio talk show host Ed Schultz and Democratic strategist Stephanie Cutter: "Will the Democratic Party take a position in favor or on the side of Michael Vick, do you think? ... Do you see the Democratic candidates coming out in favor of dogfighting?" After Shultz responded that "it's a stretch to try to connect them to something like this," Carlson stated: "[O]f course, it's a ... it is a stretch, and I'm half joking." He later said, as blogger Lane Hudson noted, "I don't understand why people take the NAACP seriously," adding that, "at this point," the NAACP is "a sad joke that should be shut down I think immediately for the sake of everybody."

In fact, according to an Associated Press article posted on the organization's website, the NAACP has taken no official position on Vick's case. NAACP interim president and CEO Dennis Courtland Hayes stated, "I think there is reason to believe in his redemption." On the subject of whether the charges are racially motivated, Hayes, according to the AP article, said: "He may in fact be being treated better than some African-Americans and Hispanics who don't have the resources and financial means that he has. ... On the other hand, there might be some of a different race or different ethnicity who might be treated a bit differently."

Meanwhile, R.L. White, president of the NAACP's Atlanta chapter, called on the NFL "not to permanently ban" Vick, according to a separate August 23 AP article:

"As a society, we should aid in his rehabilitation and welcome a new Michael Vick back into the community without a permanent loss of his career in football," said R.L. White, president of the NAACP's Atlanta chapter, yesterday. "We further ask the NFL, Falcons, and the sponsors not to permanently ban Mr. Vick from his ability to bring hours of enjoyment to fans all over this country."

White said the Falcons quarterback made a mistake and should be allowed to prove he has learned from that mistake. On Monday, Vick said through a lawyer that he will plead guilty to a federal charge of conspiracy to travel in interstate commerce in aid of unlawful activities and conspiracy to sponsor a dog in an animal fighting venture.

White said the Atlanta chapter supports Vick's decision to accept a plea bargain if it's in his best interest, but he questioned the credibility of Vick's codefendants, saying an admission of guilt might be more about cutting losses than the truth.

"Some have said things to save their own necks," White said. "Michael Vick has received more negative press than if he had killed a human being."

White added he does not support dogfighting, and that he considers it as bad as hunting.

From the August 24 edition of MSNBC's Tucker:

CARLSON: Let me ask you this -- the NAACP is a faithful arm really of the Democratic Party, and it has come out officially to defend Michael Vick against these charges, saying that they're racially motivated -- these charges of dogfighting -- to which he has now apparently decided to plead guilty.

Will the Democratic Party take a position in favor or on the side of Michael Vick, do you think?

SHULTZ: Tucker, the Democrats have absolutely --

CARLSON: Do you see the Democratic candidates coming out in favor of dogfighting?

SHULTZ: Now, hold on a second. The Democrats have nothing to do with this story, and it's a stretch to try to connect them to something like this, Tucker.

CARLSON: Well, what do you think -- of course, it's a --

SCHULTZ: The NAACP --

CARLSON: -- it is a stretch, and I'm half joking. But what do you think -- and I don't think anybody's going to defend dogfighting -- but the NAACP is defending dogfighting, and what do you make of that?

SCHULTZ: Well, I think the NAACP is doing what they've always done for the advancement of colored people in our society, and that is, give a man his day in court. He has not been convicted to all of the charges and you really have to give Michael Vick an opportunity through the legal system to restore his reputation. It is a horrible story. It's a story --

CARLSON: [inaudible], come on!

SCHULTZ: The NFL had to do this. The NFL waited until the plea came in. But he may not be guilty of some other things as well. So, give him his due and give him a chance through the legal system to try to work himself out of this.

That doesn't exonerate him, but it is -- this is how our judicial system works in this country.

CARLSON: Yeah, well, I don't -- with all respect -- I don't think it advances the interests of black people or white people or any people in this country to defend something as gruesome as dogfighting.

And I wonder, Stephanie, if it turns out to be true -- and I think it will turn out to be true that Vick has pled to certain charges but has not admitted killing dogs directly or gambling on dogs, which is kind of a way to keep open his options in professional sports, he's kind of skating on this, it sounds like to me.

CUTTER: Skating on it, like trying to get off scot-free?

CARLSON: Well, trying to get off without paying the appropriate penalty, right?

CUTTER: Yeah.

CARLSON: Because the gambling is the really significant charge and the point of view of his job. You can't gamble and be in the NFL.

CUTTER: Right. Right.

CARLSON: He apparently is not admitting to that. I mean, you could -- could you see a scenario in which he comes back as an NFL star when he's out of prison in a year?

CUTTER: Well, you know, it depends what he's pleading guilty to, what the facts are, and what's ultimately proven to be true or not true.

You know, I can see a million different scenarios here, but we have to let it play out. I'm certainly glad that Ed got the first question, because I'm not that familiar with dogfighting. And I don't understand why this would be a racial issue to begin with.

CARLSON: Well, I don't either. And I don't understand why people take the NAACP seriously. It was a group whose history we can all respect, and I know I do respect its history --

CUTTER: Yeah.

CARLSON: -- but at this point, it's a sad joke that should be shut down I think immediately for the sake of everybody.

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    • Author by slothrop (August 26, 2007 2:01 pm ET)
         

      So the NAACP did not actually come out and defend Vick? Carlson is a sad joke and he is utterly dishonest and without ethics. This is a good example of the misinformation that hacks such as Carlson spread.

      Report Abuse
    • Author by DorisRussell (August 26, 2007 2:10 pm ET)
         

      CARLSON: Well, I don't either. And I don't understand why people take the NAACP seriously. It was a group whose history we can all respect, and I know I do respect its history --

      Well maybe because they have done so much for equal rights in America? Shame on tucker Carlson.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by wzwriter (August 27, 2007 11:15 am ET)
           

        Tucker can't take the NAACP seriously because they've done nothing for him personally.....

        Report Abuse
    • Author by Preston (August 26, 2007 2:16 pm ET)
         

      Carlson is such a disgrace to punditry and journalism I'm shocked that his show (which gains very low ratings) is still on MSNBC's time slot. I think he's one pundit that both conservatives and liberals disdain equally.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by wzwriter (August 27, 2007 11:25 am ET)
           

        They could reach back into the NBC archives and broadcast one thing that's far more useful than Tucker Carlson - the old test pattern with Howdy Doody's face on it....

        :-)

        Report Abuse
        • Author by princeofwheels (August 27, 2007 2:42 pm ET)
             

          I think that Mother Tucker relates better to Clara Belle.

          Report Abuse
    • Author by clams casino (August 26, 2007 2:21 pm ET)
         

      I love how he's forced to immediately backpeddle from his idiotic opening question by relying on the tried and true "I was just [half] joking" defense. If anyone has any doubts about Tucker being a faithful arm (or maybe just a pinky knuckle) of the Republican party, then this clip is all the evidence they need to set them straight. He's a spin artist, plain and simple. And he's a bad one at that.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by Preston (August 26, 2007 2:57 pm ET)
           

        He is a bad spin artist. It reminds me of how Carlson twisted Obama's speech a few months back, saying that Obama was justifying riots. Not only was he completely off-base with this assertion, but it mirrored how conservatives back in the 60s use to spin Martin Luther King, Jr.'s speeches and writings completely out of context -- he, too, was accused of justifying riots. Rick Pearlstein wrote an incredible article in The New Republic about this a couple of years ago.

        At this rate, I'm not sure how long Carlson or his show will last on MSNBC. With low-ratings and tacky journalism, I'm wondering how long Dan Abrams will keep his show on-air until he finally decides to pull the plug.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by Lynn (August 26, 2007 3:23 pm ET)
             

          The NAACP has long been a target of the right wing noise machine and subject to the defamation they heap on any person or organization that they disagree with. The Bushies actually sicked the IRS on the NAACP in an attempt to withdraw their tax-exempt status and label them a political organization. I believe that these guys have or at least tried to conflate anyone working for social justice as Liberal ideologies and I believe Lostlogic pointed out the absurdity of labeling the adoption of a certain philosophy as the adoption of a political ideology. Now certainly organizations that work toward the goals that the NAACP does are more inclined toward endorsing Democrats because they have a shared philosophy when it comes to civil rights and social justice just the same as non-profit ant-choice organizations endorse Conservatives for political office because they agree with them on their issue

           

          Report Abuse
          • Author by Preston (August 26, 2007 3:40 pm ET)
               

            Good post, Lynn. Totally agree.

            What upsets me more than anything about Carlson's statement is not his dishonesty at twisting this story to fit his agenda, but his phonyness. On the one hand he dismisses the NAACP as a "joke," then turns around and gives a half-ass statement that he use to respect the group giving their legacy and accomplishments in this country, but now they're a "joke" and should retire. Like O'Reilly, Carlson uses a lot of code words and trite sentimentality to position himself as a pragmatic conservative thinker. Nothing can be further from the truth. His comments that America's oldest Civil Rights institution is nothing but a "joke" exhibits how much of a "joke" and "jackass" Carlson is as a person -- not to mention an "elitist."

            Report Abuse
          • Author by bruce1ace (August 26, 2007 9:49 pm ET)
               

            Lynn, hi just got back to the Limbaugh thread which was archived but sorry if I took your Tiger Woods comments out of context.

            I happen to think that anyone who criticizes Tiger Woods is a complete idiot so I didn't see the humor in criticizing him.  Sorry about that.  He has earned the highest level of respect IMO.

            Report Abuse
            • Author by Lynn (August 26, 2007 10:07 pm ET)
                 

              Bruce, as I said the only thing I know about Tiger Woods is that he plays golf and I do not follow the sport. I respect Tiger Woods in the same manner that I respect any other human being, no more and no less

              Report Abuse
        • Author by pawl1 (August 27, 2007 12:01 pm ET)
             

          Preston asked:  How long can Tucker and his show last on MSNBC?  The answer is: as long as his Daddy and other neocons have influence on the MSM.  Carlson has had shows of his own (PBS) and been a host or panelist on a number of TV shows (mainly CNN) all of which failed. Yet, he keeps surfacing like a bad penny.  He was at CNN; then at PBS and now MSNBC,  Next stop will be Fox. He makes outrageous statements and when his guests fail to go along, he defends himself by saying "I'm only joking."  He also uses another device: "I really like him (or her)" but then he continues to stick the knife into his victim.  MSNBC will keep Tucker as long as it can sell advertizements on the progam and that depends on how outrageous Tucker can be. It's all about money and not about enlightening political discourse.              

          Report Abuse
    • Author by fawltylogic (August 26, 2007 3:15 pm ET)
         

      A bit off topic but...

      "CARLSON: Because the gambling is the really significant charge and the point of view of his job. You can't gamble and be in the NFL."

      This to me is the most ridiculous part of this whole story. Why would you not be able to gamble on non-football related sports and still be part of the NFL?

       

      Report Abuse
      • Author by BreakerBaker (August 26, 2007 3:35 pm ET)
           

        As ridiculous as it may seem, this is absolutely accurate. Gambling among employees is totally shunned by the NFL and most professional sporting bodies. If you look at the statement the NFL commissioner released upon the plea agreement, you can see that among the top concerns of the league were Vick's participation in illegal gambling. Participation in gambling (legal or not) goes against most (if not all) player's contracts.

        "Your admitted conduct was not only illegal, but also cruel and reprehensible," Goodell wrote in a letter to Vick. "Your plea agreement and the plea agreements of your co-defendants also demonstrate your significant involvement in illegal gambling. Even if you personally did not place bets, as you contend, your actions in funding the betting and your association with illegal gambling both violate the terms of your NFL player contract and expose you to corrupting influences in derogation of one of the most fundamental responsibilities of an NFL player."

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      • Author by open_mind (August 26, 2007 10:43 pm ET)
           

        It is important for players to avoid gambling on any sport as it quickly can lead a gambler into debt with organized criminals.  It is not a stretch that the mob would use there leverage to influence the outcome of the sport in which the player participates.

        That may describe how the NBA referee got in over his head as well.

        Report Abuse
    • Author by brighthopa7588 (August 26, 2007 3:16 pm ET)
         

      They cut him from twice a day down to once a day. IMO still to much air time. Hopefully they will pull the plug completely and may he never get another show. i do not agree with a lot of what Don Imus said But when he called tucker Carlson an idiot.

      Report Abuse
    • Author by CaseySpring (August 26, 2007 3:39 pm ET)
         

      Only slime like Tucker Carlson would take the Michael Vick story and turn it into an Anti NAACP story.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by BreakerBaker (August 26, 2007 4:09 pm ET)
           

        I actually think it seems like a bad position for the Atlanta chapter of the NAACP to be taking. The fact is that by stepping in on this matter, the NAACP is giving credence to the absurd notion held by many that Michael Vick is just another black man being taken down by the white media. I mean, of course the NAACP has a proud history, but coming to the defense of Vick, and downplaying his horrific crimes to the point where they can be referred to as no more than mistakes, and making unfounded claims that Vick is receiving more press than had he killed a human being are ways of lessening his crimes, and redirecting culpability onto the white media.

        This seems like a fundraising effort more than anything else.

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        • Author by CaseySpring (August 26, 2007 5:00 pm ET)
             

          I am not sure the NAACP has downplayed the dogfighting event. They have not excused this , they have called for him to be able to continue his livelyhood after he serves his time. What is wrong with that?

          Report Abuse
          • Author by BreakerBaker (August 26, 2007 6:16 pm ET)
               

            I'm sorry, but most people, having been convicted of a felony that goes in direct violation of their contractural agreement don't have the gall to serve their time and expect to be hired back. What the NAACP's involvement in the case is doing is justifying the assertion that were Vick not allowed back then his ouster would be racially motivated. It's essentially a preemptive protest against Vick being banned from the league.

            The notion that this has anything to do with Vick's right continue his livelihood once no longer in prison is just false. If he were banned for life, it would not be an enfringment of his rights. Playing in the NFL was not Vick's right. It was his privilege. He abused the privilege, and now he risks not only losing his $130 million contract, but also his various lucrative endorsement deals. And it's all his fault. And he deserves it. And now that he's admitted at least some of his crimes, nobody should be coming to his defense on these matters. Least of all an organization with such a proud history whose very involvement does a disservice to its name and cause.

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            • Author by bittermarv (August 26, 2007 6:42 pm ET)
                 

              I'm sorry, but most people, having been convicted of a felony that goes in direct violation of their contractural agreement don't have the gall to serve their time and expect to be hired back.

              Worked for G. Gordon, Rush, and Ollie.  Okay, some made career moves that were probably far more profitable...

              Report Abuse
        • Author by Preston (August 26, 2007 5:02 pm ET)
             

          BreakerBaker, while I do agree that this is a bad step on the part of the NAACP, I can understand why they feel that Vick's story is being overblown compared to, say, Phil Spector's murder trail. Now, I have no sympathy for Vick, and I think to torture ANY animal is unacceptable; however, the wall-to-wall news coverage of this story -- as was the case with Paris Hilton going to jail -- is extremely sensationalistic and ratings-driven, which points to even more signs of the decline of our news media. And when you compare this coverage to that of Phil Spector's, then it does raise the question: why on earth Vick's case more sensationalized than Spector's? Honestly, I don't know if it has to do with Vick's race, star status, etc., but I do understand where the NAACP is coming from when they ponder on why Vick is getting this onslaught of media coverage.

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          • Author by mefirst (August 26, 2007 5:59 pm ET)
               

            spector's trial is being carried on court tv.  if i happen to be home during the week, i usually tune in for an hour or so.  not to mention phil spector was all but unknown to most of the public before the murder.

            Report Abuse
            • Author by mefirst (August 26, 2007 6:12 pm ET)
                 

              damn, there i go declaring him guilty of "murder".  [just between us, i think it's overwhelming.]

              Report Abuse
              • Author by Preston (August 26, 2007 8:48 pm ET)
                   

                LOL! Yeah, it is overwhelming, but I'm sure he's going to get away scot-free. I mean celebrities are never convicted of murder charges. (O.J. Simpson, Robert Blake). I'd be surprise if the verdict comes back "guilty."

                Report Abuse
                • Author by mefirst (August 27, 2007 7:11 am ET)
                     

                  you have a point, but i think he's toast.

                  Report Abuse
                • Author by BreakerBaker (August 27, 2007 11:10 am ET)
                     

                  It's not just an issue of their being celebrities. It also speaks volumes with regard to the incompetance of the LA prosecutors and the bias of the LA jury pool. It certainly doesn't hurt that LA is a company town.

                  Report Abuse
          • Author by BreakerBaker (August 26, 2007 6:00 pm ET)
               

            Phil Spector's a music producer from the 60s. Michael Vick is today one of the top five names in the most popular sport in America. Comparing Spector's coverage to Vick's just isn't apt.

            That being said, is it a sensational story? Sure. Has the media overreported it? That's debateable. It's big news for the sport and business of football. It's not just big news. It's huge news. Vick was a major draw. Now they've lost that draw in a way that casts a large shadow of implications onto the sport and many of its players at the start of the 2007-08 season. This is pretty big news. Football is pretty popular. Has the story been sensationalized? Or is it a sensational story?

            The fact of the matter is this guy and his friends took part in the systematic torture of who-knows-how-many animals (most certainly not just dogs) over several years all in the name of sport. The notion that it can be brushed aside as a 'mistake' is ridiculous. I'm not saying you're making that argument, but that argument is being made. Further, the argument that this is about building up and bringing down a black man is absurd. And if he never plays in the NFL again it won't be because he's a black man. To grant credence to that is just wrong. And that's what the presence of the NAACP at his side is an implication of.

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            • Author by Preston (August 26, 2007 8:14 pm ET)
                 

              BreakerBaker,

              While I agree with some of your points, I still think this story is being overblown. I’m not a football fan, nor do I know the status of Vick being a prominent football player prior to these charges, but this story is being extremely sensationalized ad nauseam. Even CNN’s legal analyst Jeffery Toobin suggested that there is more outrage over Vick doing these heinous things to animals than of athletes charged of beating their spouses. This story of Vick reminds me when Louis Farrakhan became infamous in the media for his Anti-Semitic remarks. The media treated this cause célèbre as if Farrakhan was the second-coming of Adolph Hitler, but I can’t remember the same media coverage of Pat Buchanan’s and Jerry Falwell’s equally disdainful Anti-Semitic remarks. Furthermore, the media treated Farrakhan as if he was the embodiment of the entire “black community,” and his anti-Semitism was an exemplification of new brand of Anti-Semitism—Blackantisemitism—which was bubbling underneath the surface within our community. The same goes with this case of Vick. Soon after this Vick story became a huge media circus, viewers were treated by talking-heads, psychoanalysts, sociologists, sports pundits, political pundits, etc., explaining how this is an “urban sport” (read: black phenomenon), and it’s a common practice to fight dogs within the “black community.” Then, Bill O’Reilly tried to trace the Vick case and pin it all on Hip Hop music (the Right’s favorite scapegoat and punching bag at the moment), and Vick’s behavior is a product of his “environment” and “culture.” Thus, the moral of the story is Vick’s behavior is the fault of blacks and their corrupt, ghetto-fabulous culture. Nothing is more fascinating than setting up a single racial mind, and whatever any lone black person does or says that’s morally unacceptable, it reflects all others. America still hasn’t recognized black individuality.

              So do I think that the Vick case is both a sensational story and being sensationalized in the media? Yes and yes. It’s a sensational story because as you point out, he is a prominent football player, and any scandal by someone of his status will surely be covered thoroughly. But I do think this is also being sensationalized, too, for his actions in torturing those animals in such a gruesome fashion, feeds the public’s assumption and legitimatizes the undercurrent of black male savagery—i.e., blacks’ genetic/cultural inclination to violence and thuggery. This belief of black male savagery and peril has always been ingrained in America culture, going all the way back to 1619, and it’s the flip side of the patient-suffering, slow-to-anger, morally superior Nobel Savage that became lionized in Harriet Beecher Stowe’s “Uncle Tom’s Cabin.” Therefore, I do believe this story is overblown because black violence and criminality is always treated as a unique phenomenon compared to other ethnic/racial groups in this country. Black violence is something that either stems from culture or genetics, as the canard goes. If this was Tom Brady than Michael Vick, I do have to question myself if these pundits who cover this story would carry the same franticness and wide-eyed amusement. I just see a deeper context with this story than Scott Peterson’s murder trial.

              But I do agree that the NAACP should actually be fighting for those who are less fortunate—something that made them an honorable organization and national treasure in this country. With the ton of scholarship done by economists, sociologists, political scientists, etc, regarding the problems that many poor blacks in the inner cities face day after day, the NAACP should be focusing their advocacy on the folks who really need it, not a multi-million dollar football player who happens to be black. Then again, the NAACP has been out of touch with its black constituency for quite some time (e.g., like their frivolous march to ban the N word last month), so it’s not surprising that they’re coming to Vick’s rescue.

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              • Author by BreakerBaker (August 27, 2007 9:13 am ET)
                   

                I don't know that I would agree that the comments by the Buchanan, Falwell, and Farrakhan qualify as being equally disdainful, so I'm also not certain the comments required the same level of coverage.

                That being said, I don't deny the sentiment: that there's a narrative the media works within, and that it's easier to report stories that seem to exist within that narrative. I think that logic only carries so far, but I definitely agree that that sort of thing does happen and when it happens, it's a terrible shame. I personally think the greatest examples of this sort of thing are usually associated with the sensationalized reportings on the victimization of some anonymous white woman or child. Stories that, while tragic, are not terribly newsworthy in a national context. Certainly no more newsworthy than the many other similar crimes that occur within the span of coverage but don't have such marketable victims.

                I have to say that the story of Michael Vick is, again, a huge story with lots of implications. You don't know the status of Michael Vick as a prominent player, but let me assure you it's something that cannot be overblown. While some people considered him a little overrated, he was absolutely one of the top five players in the league in terms of marketing draw. He was regularly referred to as the personification of a new kind of quarterback (one that would theoretically change the game). And, with a 10 year $130 million contract, he was easily the highest paid player in the history of the NFL. So when I say he's a prominent player, please take my word for it.

                As to the speculation with regard to cultural implications: this could be overblown. I certainly hope so. Fighting breeds are clearly more popular within the black community. Does that mean this qualifies as an urban sport? No. I will say that dog fighting used to be considered the pasttime of white trash in the lawless regions of the deep south or Appalachia, and now it seems to be the hobby of some extremely wealthy African Americans. That seems like a pretty significant shift. One that has obvious cultural implications.

                Further, while I don't argue against the idea that this story fits easily within the structure of the longtold narrative of the agressive black man, I do not think it's fair to suggest that's the only reason the story's being reported to such great lengths. To suggest that is not only to disregard his celebrity, it's to disregard the shocking nature of his crime and of the 'sport' of dogfighting. The fact is that even today most people probably don't have a strong understanding of what sort of behavior owning and operating a dog fighting kennel would entail. If they did, I don't think anyone would argue this to be an overreported story. This is a cruelty that goes far beyond most people's comprehension of what it means to be cruel to animals. It's an abuse that starts when they're puppies and continues until they're violently killed. In fact, being violently killed is the only death any of these dogs get. And the people are doing this because it's fun and exciting to watch two animals--two DOGS!--tear each other apart. They bring their dogs across state lines to kill or die in a pit. And I don't care what anybody says, if Michael Vick spends a year in prison and never plays football again, he's getting off easy. He certainly doesn't get to complain about how unfairly the media treated him. And whine about being dropped by his sponsors.

                I don't deny that there's a lot of racially insensitve reporting out there. I just absolutely deny the right of anyone to rationally suggest that any of the reporting in this case has been unfair to Michael Vick.

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              • Author by BreakerBaker (August 27, 2007 10:35 am ET)
                   

                Black violence is something that either stems from culture or genetics, as the canard goes.

                Violence in general is something stemming from culture or genetics. That may be parsing, I don't know. Again, I understand your sentiment, I just think Michael Vick's case is a bad example because it very well could have cultural implications.

                If this was Tom Brady than Michael Vick, I do have to question myself if these pundits who cover this story would carry the same franticness and wide-eyed amusement.

                I think this is the best question put forth. We apparently disagree as to the answer to that question, but I think the comparison to Tom Brady--the straight-laced, white, three-time Super Bowl champion--is the closest relavent hypothetical. Personally, I feel like Tom Brady being implicated in a dog fighting scandal would be huge. Maybe not for all of the same reasons. But huge nonetheless. Tom Brady is the most accomplished quarterback in the league. He's not just a franchise player. He's the leader of a dynasty. He's won three Super Bowls since 2002. Unlike Vick, whose style of play is widely considered to be selfish and wreckless, Brady is a player's player. He's reliable, and he's a team player. In short, he's the archetypal professional sports role model. If it were revealed that he were involved in a brutal and illegal activity involving the systematic torture of innumerable dogs for money he doesn't even need, then, yes, I think that would be big news. Maybe bigger than Vick.

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                • Author by BreakerBaker (August 27, 2007 12:17 pm ET)
                     

                  Or, we could compare this to Pete Rose: one of the best baseball players of all time who was banned from baseball and the Hall of Fame because he bet on baseball while managing the Cincinnati Reds. This is literally one of the greatest ball players in the history of the game, and he's got a lifetime ban.

                  This was a pretty huge story in the years when news organizations didn't have to fill 24 hour time slots, and it didn't have nearly the sex appeal of torturing animals. Making it about race is so wrong.

                  Here's a sad fact: in the world of professional sports, black guys get into a lot more trouble than white guys. That being the case (which it is), it's hard not to look for cultural implications. Why can't these guys stay out of trouble? What does it say about the environment they come from that once out, so many of them still have regular run-ins with violent crime? And as much as one wishes that were a false picture of the present status of the NBA and NFL, wishing doesn't make it so.

                  Can we connect it to hip-hop culture? A culture that lionizes celebrities who champion causes like 'no snitching.' Personally, I'm with Spike Lee. So much about the persona of black performers and athletes today is a self-imposed minstrel act that plays into the narrative the media reports on. They are not helpless victims of the narative, they are perpetrators of the narrative. They profit from the narrative. And they spread the narrative. Spreading that narrative is, in fact, essential to the artform, and any suggestion that this isn't the case is just ignoring the facts.

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                • Author by Preston (August 27, 2007 12:39 pm ET)
                     

                  BreakerBaker,

                  The point I was making regarding Buchanan, Falwell and Farrakhan is that all three are anti-Semites, two of which praised Hitler as a great man, but because Farrakhan falls into the narrative of being a dangerous, volatile, “angry black man,” his bigotry was considered far more newsworthy and credible than the other two. Hell, Buchanan is STILL treated as a reliable pundit on numerous TV shows (PBS’ The McLaughlin Group, Tucker, Morning Joe). Also, Falwell made past remarks about Jews than the one you just linked, which TheCarpetBaggerReport listed alongside his other diatribes.

                  For the most part I agree with you, and hopefully you’re aware that I’m not defending Vick in any way, because I’m not. I think to throw a lucrative career away due to dogfighting and gambling on it as a sport is extremely stupid, and you’re right, whatever he gets he deserves. I have no sympathy for him what-so-ever. However, I’m not sure I agree with you that this sport is more popular within black neighborhoods than other areas. By saying that it’s popular within the black community, that is giving one the impression that dogfighting is a sport that is dominant in most black households, and that’s false. It reminds me of what University of Pennsylvania professor Adolph Reed, Jr. said about the “community:”

                  “But who exactly is ‘the community’? How can we assess the claims of those who purport to represent it? These questions are seldom raised, much less answered. A strain of Jeffersonian romanticism obscures them among the left, for whom community implies an organic entity animated by a collective mind and will. From that perspective we don’t need to ask how the community makes its decisions, how it forms its will, because it reflects an immediate, almost mystical identity of interest and common feeling. In the Jeffersonian fantasy world, it is possible to imagine that formalistic democracy—that burdensome and imperfect apparatus—springs from the desire to approximate the informal, automatic popularity and transparent authenticity of the community’s decisions making.

                  The idea of community is a mystification, however, and an anti-democratic one at that. All social units are comprised of discrete individuals whose perspectives and interests and alliances differ, and every unit’s members are bound together through a combination of negotiation and coercion. The less attention is paid to cultivating and protecting the sphere of negotiation, the more the balance shifts to coercion. The rhetoric of community is impatient with the former, and its myth of authenticity rationalizes the latter.”

                  I think to tie Vick’s behavior to some “community” pastime or divertissement is theory built on falsity. There's no such thing as a "black community," just black communities comprised with many diverse people that carry  different outlooks on life. You have your poor black areas and your wealthy black areas, and to suggest that the amalgamation of MANY black communities bread the type of culture and actions that lead Vick to torturing dogs is sophistic and doesn’t hold up under close scrutiny.

                  And while I do agree to a certain extent that genetics and culture MAY cause crime, if there’s anything that sociologists have proven over the years is that criminals aren’t born and taught to be that way; it’s their social environment that doomed them into criminality in the first place. Biologists from Stephen Jay Gould to Ashley Montague have debunked the myth that blacks are born with a special “gene” that gives them a predisposition to crime and violence a long time ago. Actually, it was this type of Eugenics that rationalized colonists and imperialists to enslave some ethnic groups and consider the enslaved inferior and subhuman. It was rationalized that since these people are born savages and lack morality, then they should be treated as lower than humans. Moreover, if it’s culture that causes crime, then we must ask ourselves what created the culture of criminality and thuggery? If it’s solely genetics that creates corrupt cultures then we’re no different than Charles Murray and his racist, pseudo-scientific screed “The Bell Curve,” which argued that blacks are biologically and intellectually inferior.

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by Preston (August 27, 2007 1:01 pm ET)
                       

                    By the way, I'm not saying that you're buttressing your argument that it's solely genetics and culture that creates crime, but I think many times we rather focus on the effect rather than the cause whenever people bring up "culture" into the argument. No one ever ponders what creates this culture, and when one do ponders about this, one rest their arguments and theories on genetics, which is a completely lazy way to theorize the behavior of certain blacks. Blacks more than any other racial/ethnic group in this country are always used as a text-book study to contradistinguish between other ethnic groups when demonstrating other group’s success and failures. As Toni Morrison once said, “…everywhere I went in the world where there were black people, somebody said, What about the blacks and Asians? What do you think about the blacks and the Mexicans? Or, in New York at one time, blacks and Puerto Ricans? The only common denominator is blacks.”

                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by BreakerBaker (August 27, 2007 2:27 pm ET)
                       

                    I'm not sure you have your facts entirely in line. I'm imagining one of the people you say praised Hitler as a 'great man' was Pat Buchanan. As far as I can find, this is simply not the case. This is what Buchanan said:

                    'Though Hitler was indeed racist and anti-Semitic to the core, a man who without compunction could commit murder and genocide, he was also an individual of great courage, a soldier's soldier in the Great War, a political organizer of the first rank, a leader steeped in the history of Europe, who possessed oratorical powers that could awe even those who despised him...Hitler's success was not based on his extraordinary gifts alone. His genius was an intuitive sense of the mushiness, the character flaws, the weakness masquerading as morality that was in the hearts of the statesmen who stood in his path.'

                    Louis Farrakhan on the other hand, said this:

                    So I said to the members of the press, 'Why won't you go and look into what we are saying about the threats on Reverend Jackson's life?' Here the Jews don't like Farrakhan and so they call me 'Hitler'. Well that's a good name. Hitler was a very great man. He wasn't great for me as a Black man but he was a great German and he rose Germany up from the ashes of her defeat by the united force of all of Europe and America after the First World War. Yet Hitler took Germany from the ashes and rose her up and made her the greatest fighting machine of the twentieth century, brothers and sisters, and even though Europe and America had deciphered the code that Hitler was using to speak to his chiefs of staff, they still had trouble defeating Hitler even after knowing his plans in advance. Now I'm not proud of Hitler's evil toward Jewish people, but that's a matter of record. He rose Germany up from nothing. Well, in a sense you could say there is a similarity in that we are rising our people up from nothing, but don't compare me with your wicked killers."

                    To be fair, Farrakhan does FINALLY refer to Hitler as a 'wicked killer,' but that's after he refers to 'Hitler' as a good name, and Hitler as a 'great man.' In contrast, Buchanan's words barely even qualify as being mildly insensitive. Still, that quote seems to be one of the fundamental arguments for Pat Buchanan's anti-Semitism. That's a pretty weak foundation.   

                    However, I’m not sure I agree with you that this sport is more popular within black neighborhoods than other areas. By saying that it’s popular within the black community, that is giving one the impression that dogfighting is a sport that is dominant in most black households, and that’s false.

                    I don't think that's what I said. If that's how it came off, I'm sorry. I think what I said was that the particular breed of dogs (called 'pit' bulls for a reason) is more popular within the black community. I did say that wealthy black men were now a lot of time and money in a hobby that was historically associated with white trash southern boys and hillbillies. I said that shift seems to be significant one that may shine light onto why the pit bull is such a popular breed among African Americans.

                    As to the rest of your points regarding stereotypes, I don't really think I have anything to offer to rebut those statements. I'm not sure I said a lot that would suggest I needed a lesson on either sociology or enviromental biology. I don't believe in an aggressive black gene. I simply said that most all of our behavior can be traced, in some way, back to our genetics or our culture/upbringing. You seem to be saying essentially the same thing.

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by BreakerBaker (August 27, 2007 2:34 pm ET)
                         

                      That should read that they were 'investing a lot of time and money'

                      Also, Preston, I don't think you're defending Michael Vick. I just think suggesting the story is the amount of media attention is a way of deflecting blame from Vick. It's a way of spinning the story to the point where Vick becomes the victim of a racist media. And while there may be some truth to the sentiment, it's entirely lost when the 'victim' is the admitted perpetrator of such brutal and terrible crimes.

                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by Preston (August 27, 2007 3:05 pm ET)
                           

                        BreakerBaker,

                        I guess we have to agree to disagree about Buchanan's and Farrakhan’s remarks, because while Farrakhan’s is far more self-serving than Buchanan’s, the core of both of their arguments is that Hitler was a “courageous” man and revolutionary, traits that should be admired despite murdering millions of Jews. Furthermore, Buchanan’s bigotry has been widely criticized by many Jewish websites and ADL. Anyway, we’re going completely off-topic and I’m sure we’ll never agree that both are equally disgusting Anti-Semites.

                        Overall, I think we agree on most things than we disagree apropos of Michael Vick. If I misunderstood what you were saying regarding the relation dogfighting has with African Americans, then I do apologize, because I think you've proven so far that you're an intelligent debater and very fair with your criticism. I wasn’t trying to be condescending and give you an education on sociology and biology. Perhaps I have the tendency to come off that way, but it's not intentional, that's for sure.

                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by BreakerBaker (August 27, 2007 4:10 pm ET)
                             

                          I mean no offense with this comment, but I think I would argue that your interpretation is what seems self-serving. It's an interpretation that seems based entirely on the perception that one cannot recognise the obvious strengths Adolf Hitler posessed without somehow caving to anti-Semitism.

                          As to whether or not Pat Buchanan is an anti-semite, I still don't see any verifiable proof. Just snippets of quotes that seem to reflect a mistrust of the strategic natures of an alliance with Israel. It's a brand of anti-semitism that seems to both the ADL and to the people at Jewish News Weekly to be one that conforms to the Justice Stewart's definition of obscenity. They can't really pinpoint the difference between the criticism of Israel and anti-semitism, so we have to trust that they know it when they see it. Further, I'm not all that impressed by the ADL, nor do I find their accusations of anti-Semitism to be wholly rational. It's an organization that exists largely as a pro-Israel lobbyist, so it's not at all above labeling Israel critics as anti-Semites. But yes, we are off topic.

                          Seeing as we mainly agree at the topic at hand, I guess we get to end this one with kind civility. Those are always the nice conversations.

                          BreakerBaker...Over and Out.

                          Report Abuse
        • Author by pearlene_scott1602 (August 26, 2007 6:24 pm ET)
             

          NAACP was started in 1909 not just by “black” folks but a diverse group of people. It’s purpose which has served many black folks well was to work on the rights of black folks.

          Is the attention the media placed on Michael Vick too much? IMO, yes. I draw that conclusion from comparing recent and present stories in the media.

          Is there a disparity in coverage for people of color when the news is negative? Yeah, OJ comes to mind.

          Four college student shot execution style in New Jersey. One of the people arrested was an illegal immigrant who was recently charged with sexual assault on a child. IMO had the students been white this story would have made the news all day long on a daily basis. We would have had extensive backgrounds on all the students with the story being the lead news programs. You have a trifecta (horse racing terms). Can you imagine, white college students killed excursion style, illegal immigrant arrested while out on bail for a sexual assault charge pending against a child… yeah I find it really really hard to imagine that this would not be a top story. You ask what would I base my assumption on? Lacy Peterson, Natalie Holloway, Elizabeth Smart, Chandra Levy, Dru Sjodin and Jessica Lunsford. Have you heard the same coverage for Evelyn Hernandez, La Toyia Figueroa, Alexis Patterson, Marilyn Renee “Niqui” McCowan and Tamika Huston? They are woman of color who’s cases were similar as to the list of white woman except they didn’t make the same national news splash. Should MSM not cover Michael Vick? No, it is news but the amount of coverage and the focus is over the top. The NAACP pointing this out should not be ridiculed.

          Report Abuse
          • Author by BreakerBaker (August 26, 2007 7:26 pm ET)
               

            I'm certainly not here to argue that news coverage of sensational crimes is either always fair or balanced. I absolutely agree with the notion that the media, in reporting crimes sensational in nature, make calculated decisions with regard to which stories will sell and which won't. It's dirty and sleazy, and I wouldn't argue in favor of such practices.

            I'm not convinced that this is a good example of that, though. I think comparing this with OJ coverage only goes so far. I mean, not only was the OJ trial a sort of unprecedented concept--celebrity murder trial--but he essentially turned what would have been a big story into a surreal story with that ridiculous Bronco chase. After that, all bets were off. Still, I'm trying to think of a comparable example of the OJ trial that would have predated the OJ trial, I mean. As for Vick, I think this case would be more comparable to the Kobe rape case. Or, even better, the Mike Tyson rape case. The two were, after all, major stars at the time of their arrest. But none of those cases threatened to implicate innumerable other players in the league. They were all isolated violent crimes. Those cases weren't cultural. They didn't uncover anything that America didn't really know about. This story was one with legs. And it ran. Did it run too far? Again, that's arguable.

            Plus, there's the glowing difference illustrated by the fact that only one of the defendants in any of those cases ever put in a guilty plea. I don't think you get to complain about the media coverage of your case when you admit that you're guilty. Although that's most certainly a time you want them to look away.

            If the NAACP wants to pick a victim, they should be picking those who aren't guilty. Or those whose stories aren't being told. In short, they should pick a victim. It doesn't do much for credibility to focus on how poorly the guilty man's been treated.

            Furthermore, pointing out that he's getting more coverage than had he actually killed a human being, is an argument not about his race, but about the severity of his crime. By making that statement, the NAACP essentially suggests that the crimes themselves are being overblown.

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            • Author by pearlene_scott1602 (August 26, 2007 8:42 pm ET)
                 

              The media will pick the negative story of Michael Vick and run with it. How many positive stories regarding black athletes were covered in the same manner of the Michael Vick story?  Did you know that on June 10, 2007 Lewis Hamilton became the first black driver to win a Formula one event by taking the checkered flag in the Montreal grand prix?

              You think OJ’s case was made bigger because of the bronco chase. I think OJ’s case was big because a wealthy, popular black athlete was accused of killing his white former wife. IMO, the bronco was just a side note.

              If the NAACP wants to pick a victim, they should be picking those who aren't guilty.

              the NAACP has taken no official position on Vick's case.

              However the NAACP should not be ridiculed as an organization that has served so many so well.  They did not as Tucker said come out officially to defend Michael Vick against these charges, the Atlanta chapter wanted to "aid in Michael Vick's rehabilitation". They also did not say that say that the charges were "racially motivated" as Tucker said they simply stated 

              "He may in fact be being treated better than some African-Americans and Hispanics who don't have the resources and financial means that he has. ... On the other hand, there might be some of a different race or different ethnicity who might be treated a bit differently."  

              I'm not here to defend Michael Vick. To have a bright future and lose it because of dog fighting IMO is insane however the coverage of this story is over the top. 

              Dog fighting has been going on for years especially in the south. It’s big business. This is from an article on dog fighting in Newsweek www.msnbc.com/id/19028969/site/newsweek/

              The question was asked of Detective C.R. Beals of LA Country Sheriffs Dept.

              Why do you think professional athletes would be into something like this?I will be very honest—and I hate to say it—but there have been law-enforcement officers involved, professional athletes, professional people, blue-collar people, gangster people. It's a mixed bag.

               

              Report Abuse
              • Author by BreakerBaker (August 27, 2007 9:42 am ET)
                   

                I absolutely reject the notion that Lewis Hamilton winning a race deserved anywhere near the coverage of the highest paid player in the NFL being indicted on dogfighting charges. Sometimes negative stories are bigger stories. Usually negative stories are bigger stories. Why do we not here anything positive about Iraq and Afghanistan? Is it because nothing good happens there? Or is it because the bad is totally more important than the good. Besides, comparing the NFL with Formula One is just silly. Hell, comparing Nascar with Formula One is silly. 

                I think OJ’s case was big because a wealthy, popular black athlete was accused of killing his white former wife. IMO, the bronco was just a side note.

                I've seen that argument made. I wonder if the italics belong where you put them, though. Regardless of your opinion, though, the bronco chase was more than just a side note. It was a dramatic, cinematic event that set the stage for the rest of the trial. Whether it would have been as big without the bronco chase, I think his highly debateable.

                I'm not here to ridicule the NAACP. Nor am I here to defend Tucker Carlson. All I've said with regard to the NAACP is that their presence by the side of Michael Vick in this story gives credence to a narrative held by many in the black community: that Michael Vick is the victim in this case. As to whether they believe his charges are racially motivated, the implication in the quote you provide is that Vick may have been treated better than poor latinos and blacks because of his money, but all the money in the world isn't going to give him equal treatment with the white man. If that's not a ridiculous statement meant to make Vick the victim, I don't know what is. 

                To have a bright future and lose it because of dog fighting IMO is insane....

                From what perspective? Is it insane that someone would throw their future away over dog fighting? If so, I totally agree. If it's your argument that it's insane that someone should be disallowed to continue to play football in the NFL because they owned and operated a dog fighting kennel, then I totally disagree.

                Dog fighting has been going on for years especially in the south. It’s big business.

                In my book, rationalizations do not qualify as justifications. Saying that it's been going on for years doesn't make it okay. Saying that people from all walks of like participate says nothing more to me than that people from all walks of life should be in prison.

                Report Abuse
                • Author by pearlene_scott1602 (August 27, 2007 3:20 pm ET)
                     

                  I absolutely reject the notion that Lewis Hamilton winning a race deserved anywhere near the coverage of the highest paid player in the NFL being indicted on dogfighting charges. Sometimes negative stories are bigger stories. Usually negative stories are bigger stories. Why do we not here anything positive about Iraq and Afghanistan? Is it because nothing good happens there? Or is it because the bad is totally more important than the good. Besides, comparing the NFL with Formula One is just silly. Hell, comparing Nascar with Formula One is silly

                  Silly? I think not. I think that as an African American mother I would love for my son or daughter to hear a positive story about a race car driver along with the negative story about Michael Vick. I think that as a African American parent it is just as important for my children to see as much coverage of a positive story about an African American athlete as a negative. I would hope that in the year 2007 MSM would have made great changes in reporting so that my children see a balance approach to reporting. You might find that silly but IMO it’s far far from silly.

                  I've seen that argument made. I wonder if the italics belong where you put them, though. Regardless of your opinion, though, the bronco chase was more than just a side note. It was a dramatic, cinematic event that set the stage for the rest of the trial. Whether it would have been as big without the bronco chase, I think his highly debateable.

                  IMO the italics belong exactly where I placed them, but again that’s my opinion which I’m entitled to.

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by pearlene_scott1602 (August 27, 2007 3:24 pm ET)
                       

                    I'm not here to ridicule the NAACP. Nor am I here to defend Tucker Carlson. All I've said with regard to the NAACP is that their presence by the side of Michael Vick in this story gives credence to a narrative held by many in the black community: that Michael Vick is the victim in this case.

                    How you come to that conclusion is beyond me. I’m not sure when the survey of the “black community” was taken and I have not seen it nor been asked to participate. Do the black people I know think Michael Vick is a “victim” as you say? No they think the media coverage of Michael Vick is over the top. They think the reason that there was so much coverage of Michael Vick is he is a wealthy, black, athlete accused of a crime. I must also add that you have stated that if the NAACP wanted to pick a “victim”. You choose not only the word “victim” but you assigned it to the NAACP.

                    If the NAACP wants to pick a victim, they should be picking those who aren't guilty.

                    They have taken NO official position on the Vick case therefore they have not “picked” as you say a “victim”. Again the Atlanta chapter said that they wanted to “aid” in his rehabilitation which I took to mean after he served his punishment.

                    As to whether they believe his charges are racially motivated, the implication in the quote you provide is that Vick may have been treated better than poor latinos and blacks because of his money, but all the money in the world isn't going to give him equal treatment with the white man. If that's not a ridiculous statement meant to make Vick the victim, I don't know what is.

                    He may in fact be being treated better than some African-Americans and Hispanics who don't have the resources and financial means that he has. ...

                    On the other hand, there might be some of a different race or different ethnicity who might be treated a bit differently."

                    That statement in no way says anything regarding “racially motivated charges it simply addresses the treatment of Michael Vick. Where you found “racially motivated charges I don’t know. There is no actual proof that Vick is being treated any different that but the history of MSM allows one to raise the question IMO.

                    From what perspective? Is it insane that someone would throw their future away over dog fighting? If so, I totally agree. If it's your argument that it's insane that someone should be disallowed to continue to play football in the NFL because they owned and operated a dog fighting kennel, then I totally disagree.

                    Let me clarify myself for you. IMO, if you have the opportunity to play a game you love while making 130 million and you throw it away on dog fighting, murdering your ex girlfriend or driving while intoxicated or something else, that IS insane. To work hard to reach your goals and throw it all away is IMO insane. I hope that is clear enough for you.

                    In my book, rationalizations do not qualify as justifications. Saying that it's been going on for years doesn't make it okay. Saying that people from all walks of like participate says nothing more to me than that people from all walks of life should be in prison

                    Unless I’m mistaken I have never justified Michael Vick's dog fighting. The purpose was to inform you that there are many many people from all walks of life you participate in dog fighting. I knew that dog fighting was popular in gangs but did not know that law-enforcement officers as well as other participated in the so called “sport”. That was simply shared information.

                    I stated as clearly as possible that I'm not here to defend Michael Vick.

                     

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by BreakerBaker (August 27, 2007 5:20 pm ET)
                         

                      How you come to that conclusion is beyond me. I’m not sure when the survey of the “black community” was taken and I have not seen it nor been asked to participate.

                      I understand the offense and condescension apparent in the phrase black community (and I hope you recognise that I didn't say it was a majority opinion), but if you can look beyond that for a moment, I'll explain exactly how I come to that conclusion. While neither you nor I need a history lesson as to the foundation of the NAACP, it was established to fight for the equal rights of 'colored' people. Colored people was defined not simply as peoples of African descent, but of all non-whites. At any rate, if a people do not receive equal rights, they are the victims or the benefactors of inequality. The NAACP coming to Vick's side is an implication that he's not receiving equal rights. The implication is that he's a victim. Once that's understood, it's up to the eye of the beholder to determine how he's being victimized. As for the opinion that this is a black being brought down, maybe it's because I live in Atlanta and am close to the story (and to a lot of Michael Vick fans), but I've heard a lot of people making the argument that the crime isn't all that serious, and that it's really more of an issue that the white media is bringing down a black man after they built him up. Again, maybe being close to the story is skewing my perception.   

                       

                      They have taken NO official position on the Vick case therefore they have not “picked” as you say a “victim”. Again the Atlanta chapter said that they wanted to “aid” in his rehabilitation which I took to mean after he served his punishment.

                      I would argue that they're picking him without officially picking him. It's very diplomatic. It's a way of appeasing the demands made by many here in Atlanta for the group to come to come to Vick's aid. Of course they can't directly come to his defense now that he's made his guilty plea. But what they did do is stand up. I made the earlier argument that it was essentially a fundraising ploy. I believe that to be largely the case. 

                      As to whether they believe his charges are racially motivated, the implication in the quote you provide is that Vick may have been treated better than poor latinos and blacks because of his money, but all the money in the world isn't going to give him equal treatment with the white man. If that's not a ridiculous statement meant to make Vick the victim, I don't know what is.

                      That statement in no way says anything regarding “racially motivated charges it simply addresses the treatment of Michael Vick.

                      The treatment by whom? The media? Do you think the media would be treating poor African Americans or Latinos at all? I think the implication is directly to his treatment by the authorities, and I think criminal charges fall under that umbrella.

                      There is no actual proof that Vick is being treated any different that but the history of MSM allows one to raise the question IMO.

                      Again, the idea that he's getting better treatment by the media than were he poor African American or a Latino seems absolutely without merit. The implication, in that case would be that this would be a bigger story if he were black or latino, but not a prominent athlete. Does that really make sense? Or does it make more sense that the NAACP was speaking directly to his treatment by authorities? 

                      In the end, I really don't think we're that far apart. I mean, there are clear distinctions between our opinions, but I think we probably agree more than we disagree. I'm sorry if my earlier references to your argument as silly came off terribly condescending. It wasn't a fair adjective to use. I apologize.

                      Report Abuse
                  • Author by BreakerBaker (August 27, 2007 4:50 pm ET)
                       

                    I also have a son. He's only one, so this story is obviously lost on him, but I definitely respect the sentiment that our children need role models. Historically, people have looked--perhaps unfairly--to professional athletes to fill that hole, and in the current world of sport, those role models seem few. Even the truly inspiring stories like that of Lance Armstrong are seen through a new filter that cast doubt on authenticity of their acheivements. 

                    While I appreciate the sentiment, I don't think Lewis Hamilton in Formula One is a good example. Formula One is simply not as popular a sport as professional Football. And Michael Vick is a major star who's going to prison because he did not stay on the up and up. If that's not an important lesson for all of our children to learn, I don't know what is.

                    As for positive role models for a young black man in sport, I think it's easy to find instances of more prominent examples than Hamilton. Tiger Woods won the PGA championship (again), Dwayne Wade was SI's Sportsman of the Year, and, perhaps most significant, Tony Dungy and Lovie Smith became the first black head coaches to ever lead their teams to the Super Bowl. Dungy's Colts won. And if you go back to the coverage of the event, the significance of a black coach leading his team to the Super Bowl did not go underreported.

                    And if we're to look beyond the world of sports for a moment, the most inspiring of all the presidential candidates of either party this year happens to be an African American. 

                    But again, I absolutely empathize with the sentiment of your point. I just reject the notion that a story of a single event could ever rival a raid, an idictment, and an eventual conviction. Especially when the crime is so gruesome.

                    As for the OJ thing, you're absolutely entitled to your opinion. I disagree with your opinion. But you're absolutely entitled to it.

                    Report Abuse
    • Author by eniobob2631 (August 26, 2007 4:11 pm ET)
         

      I don't get msnbc on my cable provider and with this guy making comments like that I am glad I don,t. I guess this comment was suppose to be cute this is disgusting while people were giving their lives to vote and to be able to use the same bathrooms of some establishments etc,this guy was somewhere not knowing what life was like for some people in america he was far removed from it.Now he sits there with his bowtie chocking him trying to be a pundit.Disgusting to say the least.

      Report Abuse
    • Author by drsfinance20034900 (August 26, 2007 5:41 pm ET)
         

      hey where is my buddy dave to defend tucker.

      dont worry carlson will be on fox soon. he shares there ultra  right wing nutty philosophy  .

       

      the other night ted nugent said horrible horrible things about obama and hillary and hannity refused to disavow because he said nugent is his friend. and hannity lost all credibility.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by Preston (August 26, 2007 5:50 pm ET)
           

        and hannity lost all credibility

        Hannnity would NEED credibility to lose it. Can't lose something he never had. ;)

        Report Abuse
      • Author by worrierking (August 26, 2007 6:05 pm ET)
           

        How is it that the "Great American" Sean Hannity lists the walking piece of human excrement, Ted Nugent as his friend, when according to rumors on the internet, Ted used his status as walking filth to avoid the draft during the Vietnam War?

        I smell more than hypocrisy here.

         

        Report Abuse
    • Author by onionhead (August 26, 2007 6:22 pm ET)
         

      "a sad joke that should be shut down"

      Wow. I feel the same way about Tucker's show.

      Report Abuse
    • Author by juliajayne (August 26, 2007 6:54 pm ET)
         

      It's pretty nervy of some pasty faced white preppy dude to portend anything about the NAACP. He deserves a limerick:

      Tucker is a boorish lout

      There isn't so much as a doubt

      That his end should be near

      Why does he have a career?

      He must know somebody with clout

       

      Report Abuse
      • Author by BreakerBaker (August 26, 2007 7:31 pm ET)
           

        So is it your argument that white preppies shouldn't be critical of the NAACP? Are they above contempt?

        Report Abuse
        • Author by juliajayne (August 26, 2007 9:22 pm ET)
             

          Is the NAACP above contempt? Maybe. Is Tucky below contempt? Most probably.   :)  

          Report Abuse
    • Author by donaldmaddog5642 (August 26, 2007 7:39 pm ET)
         

      I am sitting here, my head spinning, sputtering at the GALL of this person, Tucker Carleson's complete lack of morals. How does this guy get away with making a connection between the Democrats and the NAACP and the dog-fighting case? Luckily, Ed Schultz immediately jumped on that and totally made fun of Carleson, to which Carleson said he has "half joking". Suppose that Carleson makes a comment about "Hillary Clinton's stripping for a Democratic Convention way back when she was a college student....what's up with that, folks?" Oh, ha, ha, chuckle, chuckle, "I was only kidding (but I did hear something a few years back, didn't I)" Then, I guess we'll just have to look into that, everybody. Who hired this moron? Well, I guess we all know who, don't we?

      Report Abuse
    • Author by JLyons (August 26, 2007 8:54 pm ET)
         

      Did Keith Olbermann name Tucker Carlson Worst Person in the World for this racist remark? Will MSNBC look the other way on this one?

      Report Abuse
      • Author by Preston (August 26, 2007 8:57 pm ET)
           

        As much as I dislike Carlson, I wouldn't go so far to say this was a racist remark; it was just an ignorant, snobbish, typical-Tucker Carlson remark. I'm sure if Carlson was on another network Olbermann would've roasted him a long time ago, probably Matthews and Scarborough, too, for that matter.

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        • Author by Lynn (August 26, 2007 10:12 pm ET)
             

          His remarks certainly weren't racist, criticizing the NAACP isn't racist. You are correct Tucker was being his ususal snobbish and borish self who evidently believes that he should determine which organizations are valubale and useful to others and which should be aboloshed.

          Report Abuse
        • Author by JLyons (August 27, 2007 11:19 am ET)
             

          Well I think it was a racist statement, he can be critical of the NAACP but his goal is to seperate it and make the Michael Vick issue an issue of race, which it is not.

          Report Abuse
          • Author by Lynn (August 28, 2007 10:37 am ET)
               

            Hey J, Of course you're entitled to your opinion and I certainly respect that. I've always thought many of the attacks on historically Black institutions and civil rights leaders are more politically motivated for most of the right wingers than racial motivated.  Certainly civil rights leaders’ stance is that there remains a problem with institutional racism despite the fact that there has indeed been progress in the racial climate in our country. This flies in the face of the wingers’ assertions that there is no longer discrimination and every American has access to the same opportunity delusion. As long as civil rights leaders maintain their stance which I agree with by the way, the right wingers will keep launching personal attacks against them because that’s what they do. The right wing attack machine that Tucker declared yesterday as now non-existence (he’s a part of it as far as I’m concerned) personally  attack the messengers that put forth stances that they don’t agree with and they do it with disregard to race, sex, or ethnicity.  They’re definitely all about equal opportunity when it comes to bashing someone. With the exception of Rush Limbaugh and Bill’Orielly the self appointed spokesman for the White Christian Male Power (WCM) structure who I sincerely believe have issues with race, ethnicity, and sexual orientation the others are often launching attacks against Black people because we are mostly registered Democrats and somehow our very existence is a political statement to them. Their apparent bias against us and I don’t think they like us but I believe a large part of that is a bigotry based on political differences.

             

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      • Author by Lynn (August 26, 2007 10:21 pm ET)
           

        I certainly don’t find Tucker’s remarks racist, criticizing the NAACP isn’t racist. Preston’s assessment of Tucker is quite correct in my opinion. Tucker was being his usual snobbish and boorish self and evidently he believes among the other things he should be charged with is determining which organizations are valuable and useful to others and which should be abolished.

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      • Author by norotornomotor9010 (August 27, 2007 11:14 am ET)
           

        Racist? LOLOLOLOLOL

        Report Abuse
    • Author by johnrtorres638 (August 26, 2007 11:14 pm ET)
         

      Tucker Carlson  

      For some time, we've argued that Carlson serves as the mainstream media's useful "right- wing" idiot, for two reasons: he's both a token conservative and an easy lefty punching bag, especially when he makes particularly stupid comments.

      -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

      Carlson is not very popular among conservatives.  His latest comment is just another in a long string of errors and gaffes.

       

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    • Author by tman418 (August 26, 2007 11:33 pm ET)
         

      It's outside of reach to assume some conservative would use this incident to bash the NAACP and Black America, but to actually falsely insinuated the NAACP's position and/or involvement in the case when there is not position or involvement is a new height for these cons.

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    • Author by mari2j (August 27, 2007 12:11 am ET)
         

      I am most insulted that Carlson would assume that the NAACP would automatically approve of Vick's behavior because he is black.  It just shows how terribly racist  Carlson really is.  Using the same logic, I could wonder if Carlson automatically stuck up for Representatives like Foley.  You know they are white!!  Or if always excuses Bush's misdeeds because he is a fellow Republican? You know, Carlson, that would be just as illogical as your statement about NAACP automatically being on Vick’s side.

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    • Author by Plantsman (August 27, 2007 6:22 am ET)
         

      I'm sorry to say that I'm not surprised the two "liberals" didn't put up much of a defense of the NAACP. They needed to stress that this action is being taken by the Atlanta chapter. Local NAACP chapters seem to have a fair amount of latitude to take actions on their own. Some chapters have even been led by conservative Republicans. Most notably, Shannon Reeves was simultaneously the head of the Oakland chapter and on the board of the California Republican party.

      Carlson says that the NAACP "should be shut down". It's amazing how people forget that the NAACP is actually a private organization, and not a government agency.

      Report Abuse
    • Author by the Grey Path (August 27, 2007 12:43 pm ET)
         

      If an NAACP leader is going to go on television in front of a sign that says "Who is your leader? GOD or SATAN?" it is time to shut down the NAACP because it is no longer fulfilling its mission.

      At the least the organisation should be rename to NAAB, the National Assoc for the Advancement of Baptists.

      Mr. White cannot lead an organisation created to defeat bigotry.  He is a bigot himself.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by Plantsman (August 27, 2007 3:42 pm ET)
           

        Who should shut the NAACP down? By what means should it be shut down?

        Report Abuse
    • Author by daganium4595 (August 27, 2007 2:40 pm ET)
         

      This is quite simple:

       Negroes (as Tucker's multi-millionaire kinsmen would  call them) scare Tucker Carlson.

       If you were as white as Tucker Carlson, they would scare you too.

      Report Abuse
    • Author by Lynn (August 27, 2007 3:28 pm ET)
         

      Hmmm very interesting how a thread about a conservative political commentator’s apparent belief that he has the right to shut down a non-profit private organization because one chapter out of a thousand made a statement or took a stance that he doesn't approve of and like magic it suddenly devolves into a debate about the genetic links to crime and how rich Black Men love dog fighting. Once again MMFA will be graced by recurring PHD leveled 300 word racist essays, boy are we all in for a treat. It will be just like being at VDARE.com where there are always delightful intellectual discussions and editorials about all that is lacking in Black people.

       

      http://www.vdare.com/sailer/050911_new_orleans.htm

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    • Author by TheEagleScreams (August 27, 2007 3:32 pm ET)
         

      Just a real brief statement about Tucker Carlson. But it is just me or is he not getting outrageous with his statements and in an odd way taking a very sick satisfaction on attacking the Democrats. Even this story, trying to link it to the Democrats is way out there. I know he has jumped on  anything to put a bad taste in your mouth when talking about the Democatic party. For example, the Michelle Obama remark, I was watching that and she was talking about how Barack and herself were handling their children, to maintain as much normalcy in their children's lives. Then made the statement about " if you can't run your own house...".  I read other media trying to put a spin on this. But Tucker cherry picked words and placed meaning where there simply was no connection. He ia just acting like a cat trying to hang onto a smooth surface. All I can further add is Tucker, is way out of touch with the public, Democrats and Republicans alike, the real mainstream Americans. I guess that is a perfect example of what happens when one climbs that proverbial ladder into the Corporate world.

      Report Abuse
    • Author by sonicphobia (August 28, 2007 8:57 pm ET)
         

      Formula One is the second most popular sport in the world. Number one is soccer. Its just not popular here because we don't like people from other countries racing on our streets/circuits and we have crappy tracks.

      Report Abuse

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