CNN's Brown called MoveOn.org "American insurgents"
During the November 28 CNN special Campaign Killers: Why Do Negative Ads Work?, CNN anchor Campbell Brown said: "General David Petraeus made his reputation taking on insurgents in Iraq. But when he came to Capitol Hill in September, he was confronted by American insurgents, a liberal anti-war group called MoveOn.org."
Brown also asserted that a MoveOn.org advertisement headlined "General Petraeus or General Betray Us?" "became a huge news story because it questioned the loyalty of a wartime commander, implying he was a traitor." In asserting that the content of the advertisement generated news coverage, Brown did not point out the claim by many commentators that the ad "became a huge news story" because Republicans preferred to talk about it rather than Petraeus' testimony before Congress about the situation in Iraq:
- On the September 17 edition of Fox News' Hannity & Colmes, co-host Alan Colmes said to former House Speaker Newt Gingrich (R-GA):
COLMES: Getting to the MoveOn.org ad, rather than talk about the strategy, rather than talk about how well things are going in Iraq, rather than debating whether what Petraeus is saying, what Bush wants to do is the right future for the country, we're being sidetracked by talking about an ad put out by an organization.
Doesn't that really help conservatives? Because if we were really talking about the strategy and how poorly things were really going, you'd have a harder fight.
- Time magazine columnist Michael Kinsley wrote in a September 19 column:
But whatever your interpretation of the ad, all the gasping for air and waving of scented handkerchiefs among the war's most enthusiastic supporters is pretty comical.
It's all phony, of course. The war's backers are obviously delighted to have this ad from which they can make an issue.
[...]
The last thing that supporters of the war want to talk about at this point is the war. They'd far rather talk about this insult to General Petraeus.
- Washington Post columnist Dan Froomkin wrote in a September 20 online column:
But how did a newspaper advertisement, of all things, become such a hot topic in the political discourse about the war? The answer: Republicans in Washington see it as a winning issue.
That's the case even though there were legitimate concerns expressed about Petraeus's selective use of statistics both before and after his testimony; even though a Washington Post poll before his testimony showed most Americans expected him to try to make things look better than they are; and even though the newest polls clearly show the public didn't buy what Petraeus was selling.
From the November 28 CNN special Campaign Killers: Why Do Negative Ads Work?:
BROWN: General David Petraeus made his reputation taking on insurgents in Iraq. But when he came to Capitol Hill in September, he was confronted by American insurgents, a liberal anti-war group called MoveOn.org. MoveOn bought this full-page ad in The New York Times. It accused Petraeus of betraying us by cooking the books on progress in Iraq.
MoveOn's executive director, Eli Pariser.
PARISER: The goal was not to necessarily persuade, you know, lots of voters, it was to get the ad talked about and get that critique of what the general was saying, talked about.
BROWN: But what the general said on Iraq was overshadowed by what MoveOn said about the general.
PRESIDENT BUSH [video clip]: I thought the ad was disgusting.
BROWN: The ad became a huge news story because it questioned the loyalty of a wartime commander, implying he was a traitor.
BUSH [video clip]: I felt like the ad was an attack not only on General Petraeus, but on the U.S. military.
BROWN: Many Democrats, too, were embarrassed by the ad and distanced themselves from MoveOn, the left wing of their own party.
SEN. CARL LEVIN (D-MI) [video clip]: I hope we all condemn the ad in The New York Times.
SEN. HARRY REID (D-NV) [video clip]: An unwarranted personal attack on General Petraeus.
LEVIN [video clip]: I thought it was a disgraceful ad.
SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R-TX) [video clip]: It is not OK.
BROWN: But as congressional Republicans engineered landslide votes to condemn MoveOn, the organization says its anti-war membership was sending in cash, a million and a half dollars. MoveOn made no apologies.
PARISER: Sometimes you have to just lay the issues out in very clear, stark terms and fight the fight.
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I love it. Free speech in action is now likened to a group using suicide bombers and improvised explosives. Liberal Media Bias my left...
Way to go Moveon, they got Campbell's scented panties in a knot, and by proxy, the old media that is in bed with the military-industrial-congresscritter axis. That 3 way daisy chain has been going on for so long now it seems like the most natrural thing in the world. But picture it, do it, do it, close your eyes and imagine the military, big business and congressional toadys all in bed together having an orgy of feasting on our money and civle liberties.
civil..
damn this keyboard!
Don't you wish MMFA had a edit function so you could go back and fix stuff like that?
I know I do, I sometimes can not spell.
Do not worry, if you are not conservative nobody will notice, but if you are you will be ridiculed for minor spelling efforts as people avoid your points and arguments.
copy your content before posting, paste it into Word and hit f7, copy it again and paste it back into your post. Takes about ten seconds.
Or, what appears to be a lost art for me and other computer-reliant types, actually proofread...
And let's all remember who this Campbell Brown is married too: none other than the ultimate neo con Dan Senoir .. the one with the pencil head who worked for Bremmer in Bagdhad. The creep that is always on Fox News. Yep, this is who CNN hired. Like all the other 'repiglicans' who work for them like Candy 'Biscuit' Crowley: 'just one more biscuit' please she compulsively snivels. Like the entire NBC 'news' team. All repiglicans, all the time. Then there is the Fox Propaganda team: all repiglicans, all the time. CBC: Ditto. ABC NEWS: ditto. MSNBC: ditto minus Keith Oberman. And this is what passes for the 'media' in the USA.
Speaking of Brown on CNN ... Where the hell is Aaron Brown? CNN replaced this journalist with that used-car salesman, Anderson Cooper.
CNN is slowly replacing all of its journalists with mindless actors. The Blair Witch camera work and silly human interest stories have nearly dumbed CNN down to the level of Fox.
Thank the Gods for Michael Weir.
Thank God someone remembers Aaron Brown! First Anderson Cooper appeared as his "co-host" and then-poof! No more smart, thoughtful, and funny Mr. Brown. CNN obviously doen't know what "gravitas" means.
Remember Soledad OBrien! A good journalist, pushed out by NBC and landing on CNN with great fanfare. Then she gets pushed out by their new Hottie from FOX. This is Journalism?
"Free speech in action is now likened to a group using suicide bombers and improvised explosives."
Makes perfect sense if the free speech threatens the power structure. It IS dangerous, in that case.
The glory of America throughout much of its history is that our power structure was not threatened, only strengthened by free speech. It's only a power structure like we have today, one that knows its power is dervied from corporate and private wealth rather than from the will of the governed, that is truly threatened by free speech.
And they are.
SAVE DEMOCRACY, VOTE FOR A DEMOCRAT!!
Let's not forget where the Press was when the Bush/Cheney Administration was flogging "mushroom clouds" and imaginary meetings with Mohamed Atta in Prague. They were head first up the Administration's butt.
Let's not forget the whole of the White House Press Corp staging a press conference for George Bush's announcement of the pending invasion. They rehearsed questions for him, and only questions they wanted to hear.
Thank god for the grassroots activists MoveOn.Org of which I am a devoted member. They have the radical belief that government is suppose to be afraid of its citizens, not the other way around.
If Gen. Patreaus can't handle the heat, he should stay out of the kitchen. We know he begged for this opportunity, and that his ambitions are legend in the military, including his desires to be President.
Happy Thoughts;
Dan Grady
Damn right Mr. DanGrady. The netroots may be the last barrier between democracy and corporate fascism. Long live MoveOn.
Yes, this entire 'press conference' was staged beforehand. All the 'reporters' preselected, the 'questions' given to them to ask by the White House, and THE EVIL-IN-CHEIF called Bush rehearsed beforehand of how to answer those questions. Then, to make the whole 'press conference' even of more of a lie to the American people the 'reporters' who had been preselected to be there, yet were not selected to 'ask' the preselected questions, pretended that they could ask questions like at a normal press conference. Thus, the put their bought and paid for hands in the air as if they could actually ask a question KNOWING THAT IS WAS ALL JUST AN ACT TO FOOL THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. WHAT MORE EVIDENCE DOES ONE NEED TO UNDERSTAND WHAT THE USA MEDIA HAS BECOME ? THE US MEDIA SHOULD BE CHARGED, TRIED, AND CONVICTED FOR PURPOSEFULL, CRIMINAL, FRAUD COMMITTED AGAINST THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. THEY ARE JUST AS COMPLICIT IN THE DESTRUCTION OF OUR ONCE GREAT COUNTRY CALLED AMERICA AS THE EVIL FUHRER HIMSELF.
I agree, "American" is a stretch.
;)
They are more American than YOU. Those who disparage dissent by inferring those who engage in it are not as American or un-American or any such stupidity are attacking what America IS, while those like Moveon attack what this administration is DOING. True morons and fascists love to try to blur this crucial distinction
My comment was tongue in cheek, your vicious retort was typical, however.
Yeah because its SOOO funny to you black hearted fascists to disparage dissenters. To call them un-American. You have taken to many humor lessons from Ann Coulter. Here is a clue she isnt funny and neither is being so ARROGANT that you think its a joke to say someone isnt American because you disagree with them. I got that it was supposed to be humor, I just also got it was disgusting and beneath contempt. It is funny to put yourself on a pedestal and self righteously judge a person or group as not as AMERICAN as you? I dont see the humor. It wasnt funny the first thousand times or so you wingnuts used it on us and it STILL ISNT FUNNY, its contemptuous. Hiding that contempt behind a false mask of humor is just cowardly and in no way makes it more palatable.
Solon, both of your replies are completely appropriate, and very well put.
Thank you Eddie, I appreciate that.
You are correct, Solon. It's cowardly to hide contempt of dissent behind humor.
I second NiceGuyEddy's sentiment.
What's funny is the outrageous offense you take when somebody dares question some leftist organization in any way, yet you throw out your fascist accusation at will whenever it suits your ultra partisan anger.....get over it.
To call an American "unAmerican" is to merely question him?
Pete, For crying out loud it was a joke - I thought the ;) indicated that........jeez, are liberals that sensitive they can't even take a little play on words? Well, too bad.........Solon unloaded his typical venom towards me in an absolute serious vein yet that is perfectly acceptable?
If I believed moveon was anti-American you know damn well I would have no problem saying it outright with no ;) attached.
Reminds me of the bigots telling racist jokes and when called on it saying SHEESH it was just a joke. IT ISNT FUNNY. It has been used far too long by the rightwing against us lefties for us to take it laying down even WHEN its couched as a joke. It is a statement of contempt and we shouldnt have to put up with it. If I made a joke about you being a child molestor would you just chuckle? Would you be mollified that I told you it was just a joke? Contempt, hiding behind a mask of humor is nor more palatable BECAUSE it his hiding behind a mask of humor
Again, Solon, you hit it on the head.
You can't say "kidding" unless it's clear to your audience that you don't actually believe the joke your making. I make sexist jokes all the time - and I only tell them to women! And they know I'm kidding, becuase [the ones I tell them to] know how I really feel about it. (the humor reinforces my views of female quality - you see how that works?)
Right wingers have questioned the patriotism of their opposition too loudly and for too long to still have the "it's only a joke" privilege. It's not a joke. It's deadly serious. And the stakes, particularly when dealing with you guys is way too high.
Besides, you people wouldn't know humor if rolled up to you inside a giant wooden bunny-rabbit.
Right. Like when I used to tell blonde jokes to my late wife. She was blonde and a member of MENSA. There was no way for her to think I was hiding any actual contempt or actually believed they were real. That is not the case here.
Gotta love it when people insult you and when you become insulted it's your fault for being too sensitive. Couldn't have anything to do with the insulter being an insensitve lout. The party of personal responsibility, indeed.
At first I thought you were joking, then you mentioned 'questioning', meaning to seriously query validity. I took it to mean questioning someone's love of country. If I mistakenly conflated the funny conservative humor with the serious impugnation of another American's partriotism, then I'm sorry.
TOMMY,
This is one of those times that I have to say that SOLON is quite correct and you are the one that can't seem to get it!
Yes, you were joking, I caught that......
But SOLON is dead on when he said what he said...... many conservatives make what they think are jokes but are in reality not in the slightest bit funny......
I don't doubt your attempt at humor was just that but it didn't work.
Your reaction to SOLON however is exactly the way that conservatives act when liberals attempt to speak up or defend their side or begin to grow balls, you degrade him for doing so.
I would expect someone like you Tommy to see the difference and not go that path.....
Not in ANY way. Feel free to take them to task for being over the top. I might agree or disagree but its legitimate. Saying they are wrong or biased or any number of criticism that go to WHAT THEY DO, I am fine with it. When you resort to the WAY overused you lefties are un-American because I dont like your dissent that is NOT legitimate. I am sick of it and it IS a fascist tactic, and I guess I will be the judge of when I get over it and when I respond in a well deserved I am sick and tired of it rant. THAT you can assure yourself will be up to ME. I suggest you get over that first great love affair you have with YOURSELF.
Oh come on, you just wish I would get over that first great love affair with myself, because you hope you're second on the list.
I'm a married man
Tommy: What's funny is the outrageous offense you take when somebody dares question some leftist organization in any way, yet you throw out your fascist accusation at will whenever it suits your ultra partisan anger.....get over it.
Come on, Tommy, this MoveOn wasn't just "question[ed] in any way" -- it was labeled as insurgent at a time when the U.S. is fighting a counterinsurgency. I can't speak for anyone else here, but from my perspective, you're doing your own political allies a disservice if you turn a blind eye to this kind of inflammatory rhetoric in journalistic coverage, because it will inevitably come back to bite you and yours.
I didn't even agree with MoveOn's ad -- I thought it was a bad move and I thought the "Betray Us" bit was hamhanded -- but to call MoveOn "American Insurgents" is to make light of the very real insurgency that's taking American lives in Iraq right now and to cast dissenting speech as an act of war... and I can't imagine you would think either of these things is a good idea, would you?
Your line about MoveOn not being a group of real "Americans" is cute... a little creepy in its half-joking assertion that this nation cannot accommodate a genuinely dissenting opinion, but cute in a kind of naively jingoistic way nonetheless. I didn't really take offense at that. But surely you can understand why people might think it a bit more serious when a major cable news channel starts calling peaceful political activists "insurgents", can't you?
Vy,
I was making a joke out of the headline the way it reads "American insurgents", that's all......as if MMFA's beef was both American, and insurgents. I figured most would get it and realize my comment for what it was - apparently not.
Perhaps it should read;
CNN's Brown called Moveon.org American "insurgents"
Dont even PRETEND I didnt GET it. I got it. Your joke was they were insurrgents just not 'AMERICAN'. Yeah, and that was supposed to be funny, personally I think the left has been the butt of that joke a few hundred too many times for it to be funny. I am fed up with the attacks on the left and dissent as not being American. I feel like the abused wife who is supposed to still take her husbands cruel insults as jokes after the thousandth time he tells her how stupid and fat she is.
(kid gloves back on)
Wow
Maybe this site will be more to your liking:
[link to www.thecomedystore.com]
This is specifically for Tommy and Sue. Why is it ok for conservatives to "joke" (i.e. case political skewering as humor) about liberals' patriotism but if the liberals do the same thing to Bush et. al. it's considered totally out of line and off limits? I'd say Solon has quite a strong argument given the thin skin of the Fox news crowd.
Snoop,
You would have to ask those who specifically consider what you are referring to as "out of line and off limits".
Why? You are defitely dumping on Solon for his disgust at the "joke", yet here we have a news channel using it's national stage to drive feigned outrage across their several million + audience. Do you agree they are being oversensative as well? Have you ever sent them a note saying "as a conservative, I find your tactics quite disappointing"? Where do you stand on the double standard, and what are you willing to do to correct it?
Double standard? When did this become a referendum on news channels or acceptable discourse and political humor? Aren't you being a little overdramatic? I made a simple comment directly referencing where MMFA placed their quotation marks, before American instead of after......a joke to which I have explained enough, which didn't even require one frankly considering the ;) placed in the original post. Solon reacted in his typical nutty way calling me unAmerican, and well, the rest is history.
You can turn this into some double standard gotcha on my part if you are so inclined, I am not compelled to follow your lead, sorry.
I'm going to assume you posted before you saw my BTW comment below, as in I knew you were joking. It is a good question though, since we are talking to some extent about being overly sensative I think putting fox news fauxrage on the table is fair game. So with that understanding, care to comment?
Typical nutty fashion? I prefer to see it as you acting in your typically churlish fashion and getting called on it.
Brown used the phrase "American insurgents."
Why would MMFA place the quotation marks anyplace else.
Fire your writers.
The problem is that you are an ass who thinks he's funny, and if people don't get your "jokes," you think it's because they don't have a sense of humor. Actually, it's because you aren't funny.
I hope this helps.
BTW, saw the wink too so I knew you were joking, but Solon does have a good point.
Solon you really are a hateful person.
Sue you really are a stupid person. A bone ignorant moron. As this is self evident try to imagine how little I care what you think of me.
Then we feel the same about eachother, thanks.
The difference is you think I am hateful for defending progressives and myself and I think you are a moron because you are a moron
No, the difference is that you do not defend yourself or others instead you spew hate toward anyone with a different outlook. You hate diverse opinions. As for who is a moron, I do not call people personal names. You are what you are.
Sure Sue. I can see why a bone ignorant moron would think telling someone they were a hateful person wasnt personal. I can also see why they would be too stupid to see that I WAS in fact defending progressives and progressive positions. If they could read at ALL they could see I was. Try finding a five year old to read the exchange and explain it all to you.
Sue I normally defend you, but I think you are out of line today, also Solons points and posts allthough at times may be harsh on some are intelligent and well thought.
Sue I normally defend you, but I think you are out of line today, also Solons points and posts allthough at times may be harsh on some are intelligent and well thought
Doris again it is my opinion. If you do not agree that is fine, as for Solon, I disagree but I do not want to get into that either, its not important.
Sueeld you do have a right to your opinion but you also should respect others who have different views than you. It is a two way street.
Maybe you ought to make a joke about Campbell Brown.
After all all MMFA did in the headline was quote her exactly.
As I see it moveon.org isn't opposing any law but rather exercising an inalienable right protected by our constitution.
Maybe congress will pass a resolution condemning Brown for labeling American citizens who exercise their inalienable right to free speech as "insurgents."
in·sur·gent [in-sur-juhnt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1. a person who rises in forcible opposition to lawful authority, esp. a person who engages in armed resistance to a government or to the execution of its laws; rebel. 2.a member of a section of a political party that revolts against the methods or policies of the party.
ps who knew the right wing were such a bunch of jokers?
when somebody dares question some leftist organization in any way
Obviously posted by someone who has no clue what the original intent of MoveOn was.
What's funny is that you think you are funny. There was nothing tongue-in-cheek about your comment. You insult someone, question their patriotism and then play innocent? Say you were just kidding? Typical.
(Notice I didn't need to question your patriotism in order to vehemently disagree with your comments!)
Wow... I'm all for calling Tommy out when he's wrong, but you guys are taking this a little too far don't you think?
I immediatly saw the wink ;) and knew that he wasn't being serious.
Cut him some slack ok?
Thanks MHK, I am glad to see the ;) was not lost on you.
Tommy I knew you were joking also, now if you could help persuade Sue today that moveon is not a hate website, we could all get along?
Doris I think that's just wishful thinking on your part ;)
I thought I would try and keep the peace :-)
If you can make peace happen on MMFA, the State Department needs to recruit you to broker peace in the Middle East.
Bush Jr and Condi could use a few tips.
Doris,
I rarely get into the "hate" labeling game, it is way too over-used and now encompasses most passionate disagreements from one's opponents.....to hate someone based on their political views is to diminish the word itself.
Tommy, very nicely said, I agree
Yeah keep pretending that we didnt GET it was supposed to be a joke, instead of that your JOKE was out of line, crude, overused, contemptuous and those of us who were the BRUNT of the joke are sick and TIRED of seeing lefties called un-American because you dont like dissent or the way someone is dissenting.
Ha Ha! Republicans are insurgents, un-American, un-patriotic, and they beat their wives!
Ha Ha!
It's just a joke - get it?
You left off the little winky, silly! ;)
No, becuase it wasnt really a joke. It was DISGUISED as a joke. It would have been a joke if he really meant the opposite. It was in insult masked as a joke. An insult that the left has had to put up with for decades. Putting a smiley face up doesnt mean he didnt mean it. Its what Franken calls joking on the square and when that is done on an issue its one thing when it is done in contempt its another. Its time for us lefties to stop putting up with it. It is the equivilent of telling a Black man a racist joke and then telling him c'mon it was just a joke. We need to quit thinking being a punching bag is the lot of the left. Its time we stand up for ourselves and demand we be treated with the sort of respect the right ALWAYS has demanded they be treated with. Its a joke when they are laughing WITH you when they expect you to join them laughing AT you its contempt.
Solon, well said!. My bullsh*t meter is broken and sorry but I’m not in the mood for more “jokes” about my patriotism or my race for that matter.
Our differences and our ability to accept differences are what has made this nation great. We are losing it and I don’t blame Solon for simply saying enough is enough, IT'S NOT FUNNY ANYMORE. Racial jokes are a perfect example, someone tells one and you hope and pray that the person will get smart and realize that the joke wasn’t funny. When they continue to tell the “joke” and someone explodes, they appear surprised. Do you have to be hit over the head with a brick to get a little “common sense“?
I’m scared, truly scared about the direction this country is going and I'm frighten of some of those who want to lead. It’s just not funny anymore.
Pearl / Solon
I agree that it's not funny or cute when a reporters, journalist, talking head, pundit or random person hides behind the "just joking" disclaimer when they make stupid or inappropriate comments.
I think that questioning someone patriotism is a sleazy attempt to invalidate the argument a person or group is trying to make so the accuser doesn't have to address the merits of the points being put forth. The same could be said when an individual accuses someone of being homophobic or racist when they neglect to provide a counter point to the specific argument. It's the coarsening of American political discourse.
I get the point that both of you are making, but all of the uproar on this issue is because Tommy was attempting to make a joke. If both of you are discussing this issue in a broader context in relation to the media/political realm or a random person then I completely agree with you. I remember a recent thread we're the discussion was about making inappropriate jokes and how the context/audience makes all the difference on how the comment is going to be perceived. If I'm in a group of people that "know me" I'm free to say things that I would never say in a mixed group. The people that know me are familiar with my history and how I truly fell about the given topic. In light of the fact that Tommy isn't a stranger in an on-line context and I cannot remember a single instance of Tommy questioning someone's patriotism in this manner..... I'm willing to cut him some slack.
(I think hell just froze over)
Very well said MHK.
You beat me to the punch...Tommy isn't some hit & run troll, nor has he ever questioned any Dem/Libs patriotism.
The over-reaction here to Tommy's tongue & cheek post was uncalled for.
I wasn't around yesterday [tooth extraction-ouch!] but I almost fell off my chair reading this thread.
Come on guys, we need to keep things in perspective here. Are we going to start getting pissy over jokes by long time posters who we KNOW are kidding?
Geez.
I dont believe it was in ANY way uncalled for. I do agree with you about Tommy and have myself defended him against such claims as you cite in the past. You dont seem to be putting yourself in my shoes. You are pretty much a moderate leaning a bit right. What if you were a Jew and someone told you a joke about Jews killing children and drinking their blood. The centuries old blood libel. Does it matter that it was meant as a joke? It reinforces an age old stereotype that needs to be nipped in the bud.
Part of the problem here is that I am basically a very unemotional person. I know I dont come off that way its because I have decided that its time for the left to stand up. Its a tactic I decided on. I think its time we fought back. So when I see something I think should be trigger a leftist counterattack I just do so. This makes it seem I fly off the handle quickly. I have no emotional investment so just basically have two modes. Cool analytical dialogue and bring it on fiestyness. I am not saying this is the best tactic I just dont have the emotional intelligence to judge the differences. This however is one of the things the left REALLY has to stop putting up with. I am sure it would be a good thing for the right if the left just allowed them to continue to portray us as unpatriotic, not realy Americans, putting that into the conventional wisdom. It is however BAD for us and hurtful. Just how many times, how many years would YOU think that jokes about how YOU are un-American and NOT a real American or not an American at ALL be funny to YOU? No it wasnt an overreaction it was a declaration. ITS NOT FUNNY to attack us that way. We dont think its funny. If you are doing it you are insulting us. You are showing contempt for us and can expect a response BASED on showing us such contempt. I think it was an apt analogy to say we are like the abused wife, and the right EXPECTS us to continue to laugh at their jokes about us being ugly, jokes at our expense that are OBVIOUSLY hurtful and contemptuous. Well we have no such obligation.
Solon,
I get that certain digs presented as jokes can get old, but as MHK said:
If I'm in a group of people that "know me" I'm free to say things that I would never say in a mixed group. The people that know me are familiar with my history and how I truly fell about the given topic.
Because we know Tommy doesn't consider Democrats or MoveOn, Un-American, I took his tongue & cheek comment more as a jab at Campbell Brown. Or just the topic in general.
Solon perhaps you didn't mean to sound as if you were attacking Tommy personally, but if you go back & read some of your posts directed to him, you did make some very personal accusations...for example:
Yeah because its SOOO funny to you black hearted fascists to disparage dissenters.
Black Hearted Fascists? Yikes. I gotta admit no one here can turn a phrase like you, but that one did sting. And it sounded pretty personal.
Those of us that have been here for awhile usually know that our jokes will be taken as jokes. Like Tommy, I usually always add a ;-) to emphasis my intentions.
Solon, like I said I do understand where you're coming from, & if some drive by troll or one of our more radical Cons here had written what Tommy wrote, I wouldn't blame you for going on the attack.
Hey we all have our pet peeves, you are sick to death of Liberals being portrayed as unpatriotic/Un-American. I'm sick to death of having all Republican/Conservatives being portrayed as unfeeling/greedy/warmongers/racists. And I always make a point of trying to challenge those here that lump us all in one group. So yeah I understand.
Solon, I enjoy your posts because they do show emotion, principles, & logic. In this case I guess I can't blame you for getting fired up...but whether you meant to or not, Tommy appeared to be your target.
But if you say your beef was with the joke & not Tommy, that's good enough for me:-)
What you cite is me responding to HIM telling me my vicious retorts are typical. The original post had only one mention of HIM in the opening sentence because it was HIM making the joke which I am sick of. HE is calling a lefty not American I said they were more American than HIM making the point how did HE like it. Once HE, later, made it personal so did I which I will pretty much always do. Again I think its time we fought back at this slur and fought back hard. The right NEVER lets slurs like you are talking about go unanswered. Its time the left followed suit
I disagree, I think it's smart to pick and choose your battles. I'm not going off on the guy in the check out line at the grocery store or at the local bar because he makes a stupid random comment. I don't think it's good to be angry all of the time and the above situation is potentially dangerous.
If you narrow your scope to public figure with a national audience I agree with you 100%. The "left" needs to grow a pair and stand up to these kind of attacks when the fight matters. John Kerry would probably be the best example I can think of in recent memory as an individual that should have fought back and didn't. I would also prefer to see people on the left respond in a thoughful and forceful manner instead of just hurling insults back at the other side (kind of like you do most of the time)
The current crop of Dem candidates seem to have the right idea.
I dont have a huge problem with what you say. I do know your history and my answer wasnt an attack. Rather an explanation. Tommy isnt overall a bombthrower and I wasnt really trying to make it seem he was. My attacks were aimed at the 'joke' it seemed a good opportunity to make a point I have wanted to make for a while. That the left needs to stop being aquiescent to such 'jokes'. I think the important distinction is the one I make above. When you are laughing with the 'joke' teller that is one thing, when the teller of such a 'joke' expects you to join him in laughing at YOU its contemptuous and I think its time the left stood up and said enough is enough with the unpatriotic language. The slur that when we dissent it is for any OTHER reason than the love of what our country IS and is SUPPOSED to be. Letting just this kind of thing go in the name of tolerance hasnt worked out so well for us in the past. We both know what was being said and its time we challenged anyone who says that. The 'joke' is old, its sell by date passed a couple of decades ago and it is slanderous. Time to challenge it. My ire is aimed at the 'joke' not Tommy
SAVE DEMOCRACY, VOTE FOR A DEMOCRAT!!
I served my 6 years in the military honorably that we all owe our nation.
I have been a registered Democrat since I was 18yrs old when I voted for Jimmy Carter, and have voted in every federal election since.
I have paid my taxes, and worked to support myself & family since I was 17 yrs old.
I obey the laws, respect the rights and dignity of others, and do not impose my beliefs on my fellow citizens.
I am an American, and will not be told to sit down, shut up, or standby as my country's democracy is subverted into a fascist state for the love of profits.
I'm sure that's what you mean, right Tommy?
Happy Thoughts;
Dan Grady
Dan, Tommy allready said it was a joke, can you get over yourself?
Tommy SAYING it is a joke doesnt stop it from being a contemptous insult. Try that one after telling a racist joke to a minority. When the person who is the BRUNT of the joke doesnt think its funny it isnt HIS fault. Why dont you get over YOURSELF. No one here thinks YOU are the arbiter that gets to tell us what to do.
Sueeld it was a joke yes, but some here did not see it that way it is not their fault. Dan has been a great poster . I think you should stop posting today, you are falling behind every one of these arguments.
Doris you know you and I have always gotten along and I respect you but today I feel you are part of the problem in America, part of the divide. You have in the past preached about different opinions, my advice to you today is to ignore my opinions if you do not like them. You are a thoughful poster but you are not the policeman or policewomen on this board.
And Sue neither are you.
I love it. When Solon expresses his opinion, you call him hateful. When you express your opinion, others should just shut up about it.
This is an excellent example of how you are one of the least thoughtful posters here. And if you don't like that opinion, then you can either take your own advice and ignore it, or extend your hypocrisy further.
Tommy I agree, I also feel Moveon is a "hate" website. One that encourages division than unity. Hopefully it will become irrelevant as the campaign moves on , Americans are probably tired of the hate from that site.
I'm looking at MoveOn's front page and I can't find the hate. Can you help me out?
Hate sight? Wha...? How...? What? Is it HATE just becasue they disagree with you? That's lunacy, and also rather typical of conservatives. HATE SITE. That's great. Is there homophobic language? Racial slurs? Threats of violence? Incitemnt of anything except careful analysis and critical thought? HATE. That's rich. You people wouldn't know a hate site if it burned your house down.
Eddie, Sueeld should be back soon to tell you she's not a conservative. And something about Keith Olberman.
Well I am not a conservative, and again Olbermann is not the issue of this post. Are you unable to stick to the topic? When a web site like moveon promotes division and hate among fellow Americans, it is a hate site as far as I am concerned. That is my opinion , you disagree fine.
Sue, sorry about going off into my KO obsession again.
What do you consider a good example of moveon promoting hate and division?
This is what I feel put moveon over the top , allthough the ad was pulled the intent wa there .
MoveOn was criticized by several Jewish advocacy groups, among others, when a member-submitted TV ad which drew parallels between President George W. Bush and Adolf Hitler briefly appeared on an affiliated website. The ad was part of a MoveOn-sponsored contest "Bush in 30 Seconds" during the 2004 presidential election in which members were invited to create and submit political TV ads challenging President Bush and his administration.[10][11] The advertisement was quickly removed.[10]
source Wikepedia
Wikipedia, OK.
"...I also feel Moveon is a "hate" website. One that encourages division than unity. [...] Americans are probably tired of the hate from that site. "
I asked you earlier to show me the hate on MoveOn's website, when you finally do get around to citing the basis of your opinion, you don't source the actual website which, as you asserted at least twice, is "hate" website.
So again...
I'm looking at MoveOn's front page and I can't find the hate. Can you help me out?
(BTW, it's 'bushin30seconds.org' )
Wow. I was hoping you had more than that. That's pretty tame compared to the bilge the Right Wingers are putting out there.
I am not defending right wingers, just because I do not like moveon and i feel it is a hate site does not mean I defend right wingers. We all know right wingers spew hate. two wrongs do not make a right. Wow , do you really believe the ends justify the means?
Sue it's a little hard to take anything you say seriously when you jump into drama queen hate, hate, hate mode.
Don't you think you exaggerating just a bit?
No i do not.
Sorry, my freaken computer
No I do not understand Sues point MHK, Moveon .org is not a hate site , those ads were years ago and were not done by moveon.
Sue, did you just post as Doris accidentally? If so, nice save. ;0)
Please do not insult me ;-)
Doris, you just insulted Sue! I just thought it amusing that your typo was a logical response to a question asked of Sue, with a period at the end and everything.
Sue is not my favorite person today. She has really upset me with this "hate' website garbage.
As for my typos , i am human. Sorry. My screen has been freezing lately.
This is a golden thread, substantively and entertainment wise—the white hats and black hats alike. Thank God there's a Tommy to let Solon and everyone get ....wait, I've had hard feelings myself toward Tommy and others, wished them ill....Never mind.
So now I am Doris, a few weeks ago I was Jlyons according to everyone? Sorry Doris althought it was your typo your bound to be attached to me forever. LOL
I would also question the reason why your jumping to the extreme of labeling MoveOn a "hate" site in the first place?
What are you trying to accomplish by lumping them together with actual hate groups like the KKK, Neo Nazi groups, etc?
Or are you just being overly dramatic?
I agree, when I think of hate i think of the KKK and that disgusting homophobic Westboro Church. Not a political web site with a different opinion.
I am a drama queen? Because I see this as a different issue? ok. Thanks
If you label everything "hate" it starts to lose it's meaning. It's like teenagers dropping the f-bomb like the word "the" in a sentence. If you want to be the all dramatic, go for it, but it's a little hard to take your argument seriously when your so quick to lable things with "hate".
So what would you call the KKK in comparison to MoveOn? Super HATE?
So what would you call the KKK in comparison to MoveOn? Super HATE?
No I would suggest to you that thare are differnt types of hate.
Yah, there's 2 kinds. There's the Republican kind that you make excuses for and refuse to call "hate", and then there's the Democratic kind which if it involves any sort of criticism of Bush, Cheney, or any other Republicans you call it "hate".
I see how this works. Have a nice day.
How do I make excuses when I have been a voice on here that Bush has divided America and the GOP engages in hate politics? Again just because I have an open mind and am not blinded by a partisan agenda does not mean I support the GOP. Get real Atheist.
No there are at least 3 - I hate it that you're such an idiot.
How about
4) Bush 41 Hates broccoli.
How exactly is moveon.org's taking down a member submitted item an example of them promoting hate?
Johnny that is what I am trying to find out also, a site that promotes political thought is not "hate". I have never seen "hate" from that site, i see honest differences of opinions.
That's just a right wing talking point and whether someone calls themselves right wing or not it really doesn't change that fact.
So they are a HATE website because they solicitied ads. Someone NOT affiliated with their organization put up one such ad that was seen as inappropriate and it was taken off. Please tell me you are kidding.
Did moveon air the ad? Did they approve of it? Why was the ad quickly removed?
Let's say I'm an art teacher and give my class a typical assignment, and one of my students makes an offensive project, and some other teacher puts it up in their room. Why does that reflect back on me?
Sue, sorry about going off into my KO obsession again.
HBL, I thought you were in therapy for your KO obsession. ;-)
HBL has a man crush on Keith O?
Maybe Chris Matthews could recommend a good therapist....
He's all I ever talk about !
HOW ARE THEY PROMOTING HATE? They have a LEGIMITATE POLITICAL POSITION! (And yes, pro-Iraq is also a legitimate position, although less defensible in my own opinion!) But WHERE'S THE HATE? Are they calling for violnece? Saying we should lynch anyone? Have they done ANYTHING except make a (admittedly immature) 3rd-Grade playground pun with the General's (admitedly funny-sounding) name?!
THERE IS NO HATE HERE! WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE?!
"When a web site like moveon promotes division and hate among fellow Americans, it is a hate site as far as I am concerned." Sue
Wow - you must be a very proud card-carrying NAZI
I'm all FOR unity - just as soon as the evil that is Repugnancy is expunged. Until then, to "unify" requires surrender, and I, at least don't plan to do so. Differences I have with Republicans and Conservatives. Those we can agree to disagree about.
Contempt and anger I have for Repugnants and apologists for Repugnants, and I had that long before I met MoveOn. I will have that until they are all roasting where my Puritan leanings believe they belong - and if for judging them, I wind up warm myself, that is an acceptable risk for one who believes them to be evil.
I heard Limbaugh say this exact same thing the other day too.
What does the right wing have against free speech?
The real hate sites are the ones that advocate the continued murder of Iraqi civilians.
The real hate sites are those who call someone _un-American" for not even stating an opinion, but for asking a question.
The real hate sites are the ones that use the bigoted analogy that "one drop of chocolate milk in a gallon of white milk means the milk isn't white any more." That was the home page of the Council for Concerned Citizens, the group Trent Lott praised as displaying "the real values important to America."
I didn't see any hate on the MoveOn.org site. But then, I'm not predisposed to seeing Communists under my bed, either.
I agree with you, moveon is not a hate site. Sueeld you are off base on this one.
SAVE DEMOCRACY, VOTE FOR A DEMOCRAT!!
SueEld / Thursday November 29, 2007 12:40:30 PM EST
Hate Group? MoveOn.Org?
Ok, I am a member of the presumed hate group MoveOn.Org.
The organization that hates:
Billions of Taxpayer Dollars doled out to military contractors for Republican politicians and supporters for a contrived war that is bankrupting America.
Fear that deprives us of our constitutional democracy, our civil liberties, and our national dignity.
Hate that vilifys Latinos that are victims of trade policies intended to perpetuate an corrupt Oligharchy in Mexico in order to exploit them as they escapee north to become our cheap labor, as a permanent under class that cheapens American labor at the same time.
Corporate consolidation of government, natural resourses, media nationwide, even our vote.
Assaults on our American Way Of Life for the profits of a few super rich fascists.
Happy Thoughts;
Dan Grady
"Me too!"
Gee Sue did Keith turn you down for a date again? Is that why you are so obnoxious today?
To Sueeld:
One's truer sentiments eventually prevail! By agreeing with Tommy that MoveOn is a "hate" web site you've revealed yourself. It's OK to be a proponent of whatever position you wish to support, but to hate a web site created by people--fellow Americans--who bond in objecting to the current state of our nation, the direction in which this Administration is taking it and the interminable war which it initiated on a series of assertions which have since been found to be false, is to use a tactic which has historically been used in the service of tyranny. In my humble opinion, you may consider yourself a thoughtful soul, but you've unwittingly become a willing tool of the self-righteous far right. The strange irony is how wrong the far right is!
I agree that it would be a stretch to call you a passive-aggressive "Terrorist". That is, if anyone were to make that claim. ;)
This is egregious !!!! I know she's a dipstick married to a FOX News "analyst", but to inject such a subjective hateful comment is truly outrageous. I'm definitely writing CNN about this ...
who is the "lucky guy " ????
Dan Senor.
Dan Senor
You should see their Manhattan apartment in the In Style Home spread. The she-dipstick is all purty in her short dresses, can't remember if the he-dipstick is there or not, I think he's in one picture.
Why would two supposedly reputable news people be posing in a home magazine ? Are they trying to prove that they're chic ? The style of the decor is forced 60's-70's retro, very "done". It's as fake as they are.
This is weird ... Alma Dale Campbell Brown was raised catholic, but when she married Senor in 2006 she converted to judaism.
What kind of satisfaction do you expect to get from CNN?
This is the organization who promised the republican presidential candidates there would be no "gotcha" questions during last night's debate.
She is right. long live Paul Revere. And all those who followed him warning this nation of danger, specially from within. And wartime commander ? I was for going after Bin laden in Afghanistan, sure......but Iraq ? George W Bush is solely responsible for that. They managed to conflate both actions into one war.
If it had been up to me I would have engaged the terrorists everywhere that they were.
W. decided instead to attack the only place they weren't.
Makes a lot of sense, no?
Guess it's time for another "fact" check from JustUs telling us we are indeed terrorist insurgents. Drivel to begin in 3... 2... 1...
Maybe Facttroll was banned? it will happen soon.
And whoever can identify his new nickname first wins a kewpie doll.
I think I mistakenly called it on Clarence Thomas.I saw the famous name, and praise of a journalist, which I thought was sarcastic, and thought Billybob/Justy had transformed again.swing and a miss for me?
J, I do not think calling someone with a different view than many of you a troll is the right thing to do, and honestly I am suprised at you and disapointed.
Do you assert that JTUS has never trolled?
I do not see a difference of opinion as "trolling"
The difference of opinion is not all he does. He comes in and uses a thin excuse often not even related to the topic to repeat insulting rightwing talking points, and make baseless assertions and comments clearly meant to be provacative and not to further discussion rather to annoy and tweak the liberals here. In other words pretty much the definition of a troll
No Sueeld - having a difference of opinion, in your eyes, is being hateful (based on your earlier posts).
You guys are hateful for disparaging trolls.
People should know that not that long ago, Sue said I was acting like a 2-year old for the sole reason that I wouldn't accept the argument she and Tommy were forwarding (I believe I explained why their point was factually based but irrelevant). But we shouldn't call people "trolls" just for having opposing viewpoints.
Again, like earlier in the thread, one set of rules for Sue and one set for everyone else.
Can we finally drive a stake through the heart of the "Liberal Media" myth once and for all?
I especially liked Michael Kinsley's comments above. I think he sums up the situation pretty well.
I concur. Anything they can get their hands on for a diversion from the reality of Iraq is godsend to them.
There is some buzz on the Left Wing blogs that they're expecting the bottom to fall out in Iraq before long...maybe that's why they're twisting history in knots trying to blame the whole thing on the Democrats.
Campbell Brown is married and carrying the child of this man:
Dan Senor worked for the Carlyle Group from 2001-2003. He also held a number of posts in the office of former Senator Spencer Abraham, R-MI.
Senor served as a Senior Advisor to then-Presidential Envoy L. Paul Bremer III, Administrator of the Coalition Provisional Authority. Senor traveled to Baghdad in mid-April in one of the first civilian convoys to enter Iraq following the fall of the former regime. He advised Amb. Bremer on a variety of policy and communications issues. During Operation Iraqi Freedom, Senor was based at Centcom Headquarters in Qatar, where he was Director of the Coalition Information Center.
She obviously is a Republican insider ... hardly surprising she would further degrade CNN and make it more like Fox News. She is NOT to be trusted as the choice of husband is somewhat sickening. This a the man who helped loose the war and was a spokesperson for the corporate corrupt government that is destroying America.
I wonder how much of Bremer's missing eight billion in cash meant for Iraq found its way to Senor's secret accounts.
Good question. If somebody... ANYBODY... bothered to investigate that missing money, who knows where it would lead? Isn't it odd how that story disappeared, like so many of the scandals surrounding the Iraq war? Does anybody else find it strange that the Press, and even the Democratic Congress, have NO curiosity about these things?
By October of next year any American not in lock step with the wars inactive will be branded insurgents, traitors and terrorists.
"Friends have asked how I came to engender this American antagonism. My prodigious sin was, and still is, being a non-conformist. Although I am not a Communist I refused to fall in line by hating them.Secondly, I was opposed to the Committee on Un-American Activities— a dishonest phrase to begin with, elastic enough to wrap around the throat and strangle the voice of any American citizen whose honest opinion is a minority of one. " - Sir Charles Spencer Chaplin, "My Biography"
Leave it to a Brit to truly understand what it means to be an American.
Check out: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Charlie_Chaplin and read his closing speech from "The Great Dictator (1940)" Beautiful stuff and, sadly, as relevant today as it was prior to WWII.
I thought the body language in the image was telling
and the 2 Ikea futons.
From Merriam-Webster dictionary...
insurgent
2 entries found.
1: a person who revolts against civil authority or an established government; especially : a rebel not recognized as a belligerent
2: one who acts contrary to the policies and decisions of one's own political party
So in Ms. Brown's eyes, MoveOn.org fits the definition - she may have us on this one - since I'm sure she sees "one's own political party" as meaning the GOP! LOL
1: a person who revolts against civil authority or an established government
Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Adams, Adams, Madison, Revere... damned insurgents! (LOL)
"revolts against civil authority"
I'm have difficulty accepting that MoveOn's activities constitute a revolt against civil authority in lieu of constitutionally protected political dissent.
I found a few other definitions:
1.a person who rises in forcible opposition to lawful authority, esp. a person who engages in armed resistance to a government or to the execution of its laws; rebel.
1. person who takes part in an armed rebellion against the constituted authority (especially in the hope of improving conditions)
2. member of an irregular armed force that fights a stronger force by sabotage and harassment [syn: guerrilla]
One more time... (for fun) Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Adams, Franklin, Hancock, Madison, Revere...
All seem to fit your definitions. :) (Or at least they led guys that did!)
I'm not impugning your def's BTW, merely pinting out that America was founded on disent, and that there's nothing MORE american that disent and criticism of the government.
Using the word "insurgent" is a slur because it has come to represent those who are blowing up our soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan.
I prefer to regard MoveOn as "Freedom Fighters".
I regard the Bush Administration as "Freedom Fighters."
They have been fighting freedom for seven years now.
"Firefighters fight fires, crimefighters fight crime... What do freedom fighters fights?"
-Georgs Carlin
"General Betrayus?" How 'bout Senator Betrayus" first coined by Repubic attack dog Limburg re Senator Hagel (R) Nebraska. The contents of that MoveOn ad was what is important. Have any of you detractors read it?
Face it, bowelmovement.org stepped in it when it thought it was showing 'intestinal' fortitude when it laid this this turd. The ad again helped all of Americans see clearly what the political left stands for. Today's democrat party is not what it once was and that's what American voters of all stripes need to see.
Good job Media Matters (very little) for making the distinctions clearer between the left, the democrat party and America.
Face it ProudMoron. You are too stupid to even KNOW the name of the largest political party in the United States. No one cares what someone so retarded he whines about politics without even knowing the names of the political parties thinks.
Loudcon also seems to be confused about the makeup of our country, as he's been sold the Rushbo BS about a distinction between the left, Democrats, and America.Apparently, only 28% of America is America. ;0)
I guess when your self-esteem rests on groupthink and mass appeal, as long as you tell yourself you're not alone, you're right.
Proudcon doesn't yet have an appreciation for the TRUTH.
His verson of the "truth" is filtered through Rush, Hannity, or Perino.
Also, anyone that uses the term "Democrat Party" is immediately discredited by me as a partisan hack.
FREE SPEECH!!!
Looks like being married to a Conservative hack, has "rubbed off" on ol Campbell...so much for expecting real journalisim from her.
I agree that it was a bit harsh and unnecessary to call moveon.org American insurgents, but if you look up insurgent in a dictionary, such as the New Oxford American Dictionary, the definition is: rising in active revolt (verb) or a rebel or revolutionary (noun), which pretty much would describe them (in a good way in my opinion).
It honestly doesn't matter what they call MoveOn.org. They're just giving them free advertisement. People who are conservative at heart will flock to the site and believe it is hateful. People who are disgruntled with the current conditions in this country and our causing and handling of a civil war will go to the website and believe it has pertinent information. I won't get into the dumping on Sueeld, but I have read her other post in the past and can honestly say I see where a lot of frustration comes from with some of the posters here.
Man, insurgents. What do you call a real insurgent then?
As a member of move on, I do consider myself an american insurgent. I consider it my duty to remove from government office traitors and christofascists. There is a woman in Fresno Ca who got herself elected to the school board of the public schools. She now is pushing her christofascist agenda on the public school district. She has started by demanding that at all the schools a sign that says In God We Trust. Why not Alwah we trust or Budda we ascend? This is what we are facing. I will be attacked for a godless commie or a raging muslim, but the facts are I do not want their flatlander ideas shoved down my throat.
insurgent |inˈsərjənt| adjective [ attrib. ] rising in active revolt : alleged links with insurgent groups. See note at uprising . • of or relating to rebels : a series of insurgent attacks. noun (usu. insurgents) a rebel or revolutionary : an attack by armed insurgents. DERIVATIVES insurgence |1nˈsərdʒəns| noun insurgency |1nˈsərdʒ(ə)nsi| noun ( pl. -cies). ORIGIN mid 18th cent. (as a noun): via French from Latin insurgent- ‘arising,’ from the verb insurgere, from in- ‘into, toward’ + surgere ‘to rise.’