Conservative radio hosts repeat discredited claim that Obama has not produced valid U.S. birth certificate
Radio hosts Michael Savage, Rick Roberts, and Chris Baker repeated the discredited claim that Sen. Barack Obama has not produced a valid U.S. birth certificate. In fact, the Obama campaign posted a copy of Obama's birth certificate on its "Fight the Smears" website, and reportedly provided the original document to FactCheck.org, whose staff concluded that it "meets all of the requirements from the State Department for proving U.S. citizenship."
Rehashing a long-debunked claim, conservative radio hosts Michael Savage, Rick Roberts and Chris Baker each asserted that Sen. Barack Obama has not produced a valid birth certificate proving that he was born in the United States and is therefore eligible to run for president. In broadcasts between October 8 and 10, Roberts, Baker and Savage said, respectively, that Obama's birth certificate "hasn't ... been produced"; that there "has never been a real birth certificate presented" by Obama; and that the birth certificate "that was produced is a forgery." In fact, the Obama campaign posted a copy of Obama's birth certificate on its "Fight the Smears" website, and reportedly provided the original document to the nonpartisan watchdog group FactCheck.org, whose staff concluded in an August 21 post that it "meets all of the requirements from the State Department for proving U.S. citizenship." Further, a Hawaiian Health Department official confirmed to PolitiFact.com that Obama's birth certificate is authentic. Indeed, even the conservative website WorldNetDaily.com reported in an August 23 article that a "WND investigation into Obama's birth certificate utilizing forgery experts also found the document to be authentic," as Media Matters for America has documented.
On the October 9 broadcast of his Minneapolis-based radio show, Baker discussed a lawsuit filed in August by Philip J. Berg, who baselessly charged that Obama was born in Kenya. Baker stated that "when you really start looking into this, there apparently has never been a real birth certificate presented. There's been a certificate, but it's not a birth certificate. ... Just get the damn birth certificate presented and let's move on with our lives."
Savage and guest host Roberts repeatedly questioned Obama's citizenship on the October 8, October 9 and October 10 broadcasts of the nationally syndicated Savage Nation. For instance, Savage falsely claimed that Obama's birth certificate "does not exist, they can't find it in the Hawaii government. It's never been produced. The one that was produced is a forgery." Roberts stated, "[Y]ou're running for the president of the United States, OK? Show them the birth certificate and say, 'OK, here's my birth certificate, get out of my face.' Why hasn't it been produced? Why?"
Additionally, while baselessly stating that Obama has not proven his U.S. citizenship, Savage revived other falsehoods about Obama. He falsely suggested that Obama is a Muslim, stating: "How could he not be Muslim if he has a Muslim name? How could he not be Muslim if his father and grandfather were Muslims? How is that possible, when he has no known birth certificate?" Savage also claimed that Jerome Corsi, author of The Obama Nation, "went over to Kenya to investigate [Obama's] relatives in Kenya, and he was arrested by the Muslim leader of Kenya because Mr. Corsi uncovered the true birthplace, I believe, of Hussein Obama and the connections that exist between Barack Hussein Obama and this Muslim leader ... "
However, Media Matters has documented that while Corsi recently baselessly claimed that he "came out of Kenya" with "documents" proving that Obama "made a pact with this radical leftist politician Odinga," the only "documents" Corsi has thus far provided -- purported emails listing the contact in his Senate office to work with Kenyan Prime Minister Raila Odinga -- do not establish that Obama "made a pact" with Odinga, and they "appear not to have been written by a native English speaker," as the Politico's Ben Smith has noted. Media Matters has also noted that PolitiFact.com wrote on August 20 that Corsi's claim that Obama "openly supported" Odinga during his 2006 bid for the presidency of Kenya is "false," as PolitiFact "scour[ed] the public record for evidence that Obama supported Odinga" and concluded that "Obama has remained neutral in Kenyan politics." Also, contrary to Savage's claim that the "leader" of Kenya is a Muslim, neither Odinga nor Kenyan president Mwai Kibaki are Muslim, according to news reports.
On October 8, Roberts also said: "[I]f you look at some of his policies and his guidelines and certain political agendas and even more than that, certain social agendas at the outset, you know, the similarities are staggering between Adolf Hitler and Barack Obama."
From the October 8 broadcast of Talk Radio Network's The Savage Nation:
SAVAGE: So here we are, here we are, here we are, here we are. We're getting ready for the communist takeover of America with a noncitizen at the helm -- I love it. He won't even produce a birth certificate. Don't you love that? Something as basic as Obama's birth certificate now is an issue. I mean, if he's got nothing to hide, show it to me. Doesn't exist. It does not exist, they can't find it in the Hawaii government. It's never been produced. The one that was produced is a forgery. Go to my website, read the story. Who's proposing this notion? Not me. It's a Democrat. A leading Democrat from Pennsylvania is suing the Obama campaign, claiming he's not a citizen.
[...]
RICK ROBERTS (guest host): Yeah, he needs to remember, Pete, not that I could tell McCain anything, but it is my opinion. He needs to remember he's fighting not only for a job, he's fighting for this country. Once again, maybe that's too much to ask in one lifetime of any one man, given everything he's gone through. But you're absolutely spot on. Barack Obama is the most dangerous -- and I've said this before and people take exception with it -- but if you look, and I'm not Ph.D. in world history, but I can read -- if you look at world history and you look at Germany when Adolf Hitler was not initially but shortly after he first came on the scene and started making his rise to power as a community organizer, and you look at all the people he surround himself -- himself with, and if you look at some of his policies and his guidelines and certain political agendas and even more than that, certain social agendas at the outset, you know, the similarities are staggering between Adolf Hitler and Barack Obama. You know, sorry, that's the way I feel. I can read and I can look and I can compare and contrast and what I see -- the early, early days of Adolf Hitler and the very early days in this presidential campaign of Barack Obama, the similarities are absolutely staggering. Now, people say you -- you just don't like black men. It has nothing to do with his race, his theology, his point of origin -- which is in question, by the way. You heard Michael talking about that. There is some question, some question as to whether he's even a U.S. citizen and, sorry, that's something you kinda have to have to run for president. And I thought to myself, wouldn't that be something? We'd get a week away from the presidency and all of a sudden we find out he's actually born in Kenya and then taken to Hawaii where a duplicate birth certificate was produced. That -- that -- I don't know -- that'd be great -- that's a TV movie right there.
From the October 9 broadcast of Talk Radio Network's The Savage Nation:
SAVAGE: McCain is a genuine war hero. He's suffered for this country. He didn't crack, he has honor, he comes from a great family. We can trust him on national security, we cannot trust him on almost anything else. And that's the problem here. If he was clearly to be trusted on the economy, and to be trusted on the borders, and to be trusted on the onslaught of illegal aliens, we wouldn't even be having this conversation, would we? But we know we can't trust him on those other things. However, the other guy is so off the map, so far off the ken, out of the ken of reality. Obama is an unknown man, may not be a citizen, surrounded by radicals, surrounded by terrorists, that we have no choice.
[...]
SAVAGE: As far as this election goes, I vote for McCain on national security issues only, one reason only, which is I trust him with not selling the country down the river to the Islamofascists. I cannot and will not trust the unknown entity called Obama. I will not turn the country over to him. I understand that McCain comes from -- his father and his grandfather, both very, very good American men, both admirals. That's good enough for me. A military family to me is platinum, it is platinum as far as I am concerned. I have no faith in McCain on any other issue. But if I have nothing else, I'll even take that sad old hack. I will never vote for a man who nobody knows who he is. I will never vote for a man who did nothing for his country. I will never vote for a man who creates groups like ACORN, which are registering the dead and unknown. I will never work for a man who has a birth certificate nobody can find. In other words, if you vote for Obama, you're insane.
[...]
SAVAGE: Here's another article from the Grand Rapids Press on my website. PBS anchor declares Obama a pseudo -- Obama pseudo controversies really hide racism. Characterizing Obama as Muslim, quote, "is a way to confer otherness on him for those people who are uncomfortable saying they're against him because he's black," says -- says a red diaper doper baby vermin from PBS. Again, it's always the white communists who are stirring up blacks against whites and whites against black. Every time you investigate, you see it's a white liberal or a person who wants a race war in the country, who works for PBS, who will not acknowledge that there are real controversies about Obama. How could he not be Muslim if he has a Muslim name? How could he not be Muslim if his father and grandfather were Muslims? How is that possible, when he has no known birth certificate?
[...]
SAVAGE: How about his relatives in Kenya? Mr. [Jerome] Corsi went over to Kenya to investigate his relatives in Kenya, and he was arrested by the Muslim leader of Kenya because Mr. Corsi uncovered the true birthplace, I believe, of Hussein Obama and the connections that exist between Barack Hussein Obama and this Muslim leader, and what this Muslim leader said he would do after this election. And yet McCain says, "Why should I care about this?" Well, as you well know, Obama's first father left him and his mother, and he was a Muslim. And Obama's mother then remarried with her new husband, who was again a Muslim. And yet we're not supposed to say the M-word. Now, as I said to you, I am a believer in all five of the world's religions. As long as they're peace-loving and are pro-American, as far as I'm concerned, all religions are equal. However, what you consider the fact that not all Muslims are terrorists but all terrorists happen to be Muslim, and that the 19 hijackers that destroyed the Twin Towers and the Pentagon were Muslim, mainly from Saudi Arabia, we have a very real obligation to remember that. Never mind that we've been told not to remember it by the -- both party candidates. Never mind that PBS, which should be defunded, tries to embarrass you every time your remember reality. I remember reality.
So the mother remarries and goes to Indonesia with a new husband who is also a Muslim. Barack Hussein Obama is enrolled and reported on the rolls of the Islamic Muslim school he attended under the name Barry Soetoro, S-O-E-T-O-R-O. And when Obama's mother remarried, this new Muslim husband adopted Obama and his name was changed to Barry Mohammed Soetoro legally, through the court system not in America but the court system in Indonesia. However, if you do extensive research, there are no court filings or petitions to the courts of the states of Hawaii and Illinois where this Barack Hussein Obama has his name legally changed to Barry Mohammed Soetoro, so therefore, that there is no court order allowing a name change -- name change, Barrack Hussein Obama, that he's been using, it is an illegal alias for many years. And so, therefore, it's a valid question. There are websites out there that have been filed in federal courts in Philadelphia where a Democrat attorney had to file a federal lawsuit to obtain a simple copy of this alias, Barack Hussein Obama's birth certificate. When in reality, under the Freedom of Information Act, any request made my any citizen to the senator should have been answered and the documents supplied. Especially since this person is not only a federal employee working in a federal agency as a senator but he's preparing under our Constitution which requires birth on U.S. soil, and instead of complying with his request, Barack Hussein Obama, or Hussein, sent his SA to Philadelphia to fight a simple request to show a valid birth certificate. There are websites you can go to read the writ for the attorney and the rationale that Hussein's and the entire DC attorneys gave the federal judge to dismiss this lawsuit. They said that if only one person requested it, it is not a valid issue in clear violation of the actual meaning of the Freedom of Information Act where anyone, anyone by themselves may request any document relating to presidential candidates or even sitting presidents, which includes senators. And so, ladies and gentlemen, we do not even know where Hussein Obama was born, we cannot find a legal birth certificate for him. I believe we are watching one of the greatest frauds in the history of this country unfolding before our eyes, at the same time that the gangsters of Wall Street are melting down our economy. This man may melt down our country altogether.
[...]
ROBERTS: The question was asked earlier today by many people in the lamestream media outlets: Is Barack Obama stealing the vote or is it a right-wing conspiracy, another smear? Another smear? Tell me the first smear. Tell me the first smear. Is any of this resonating with the American people? Is -- are the American people getting any of this? I'll tell you, probably not, and I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why. First of all, the birth certificate issue. The birth certificate issue. You know the story goes his father moved to Kenya, his mother followed, she was pregnant with him, she didn't like the way Muslim men treated the women, she wanted to go back to Hawaii, she was too far along in her pregnancy, they said, "No, you can't fly." She had the baby in Kenya, then got on a plane with the child back to Hawaii and got a registry of birth. You know, if that's not an issue, if that's not a problem -- you're running for the president of the United States, OK? Show them the birth certificate and say, "OK, here's my birth certificate, get out of my face." Why hasn't it been produced? Why?
From the October 10 broadcast of Talk Radio Network's The Savage Nation:
SAVAGE: We're taking a gamble on Barack Hussein Obama. It doesn't matter that he doesn't have a birth certificate. It doesn't matter that he may not be an American citizen. Doesn't matter that he sat in a church for 20 years where a preacher preached the most vile hatred you could imagine -- hatred toward whites, hatred toward America, because that's when he was younger. It doesn't matter that he associates with known terrorists who plotted blowing up the Pentagon and said they didn't do enough -- that doesn't matter because the important thing is that he's a young man who speaks well and can bring about change.
From the October 9 broadcast of KTLK's The Chris Baker Show:
BAKER: According to an investigation by Philip Berg, who has quite a extensive -- he was an assistant attorney general of Pennsylvania, if I'm not mistaken -- I could be, whatever. Assistant attorney general somewhere, which is certainly more attorney general school than I've ever had. So there. Anyway, he says Barack Obama is not a citizen, and now as I've kept up with this story -- and again, just kinda flying around the outside, because when I heard it I thought, "OK, yeah, great, this is what we need, right?" but now when you really start looking into this, there apparently has never been a real birth certificate presented. There's been a certificate, but it's not a birth certificate. And according to Philip Berg, Barack Obama was born in Kenya. And he presents a pretty -- pretty strong case, and I don't know if he's right and I don't know if he's wrong. But I do know that this is an incredibly important issue for a couple of -- a couple of huge reasons. One, I do not want to go through -- if Barack Obama wins the election, I do not want to go into a Barack Obama presidency with a bunch of people running around saying "He's illegitimate. He's not my president. He was selected, not elected. He's not even a citizen. He's not even certified. This whole thing is a fraud" -- I don't need that, OK? I don't need that distraction because the things like this distract us from policy. Now the second part of this is, it's only building suspicion. Now, as I've read about this story, I've read that the Democrat [sic] Party's trying to delay this, they want to keep it out of the courts until after the election -- and listen, here's the deal. Just get the damn birth certificate presented and let's move on with our lives.
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I maintain that these three are aholes and do nothing but lie, spew lies. The hate from Savage is amazing, it has no limits.
WOR in NY, why is this A hole allowed to have a forum to spew lies and hate? Why?
Stoned ! They must be stoned !
If you're implying that they're marijuana smokers I take great offense at that notion. However, if you're using the biblical meaning of the word then I wholeheartedly agree!
WOR in NY, why is this A hole allowed to have a forum to spew lies and hate? Why?
The first two John Gamblings and Jean Shepperd must be spinning in their graves because of what Michael Weiner is doing to their once-great radio stration....
But maybe the Hawaiian Health Department and WorldNetDaily are in on the big liberal conspiracy...
Someone help me out here. Isn't there some sort of body that actually asks for this sort of thing when someone runs for President? Is it even possible for someone to run a major campaign, get elected and then years later admit they were too young or born in France or something? I would think there would be some sort of verification process somewhere along the line, considering you're not dealing with that many people running for office.
OK, Savage. You vote for McCain then. Vote for someone who wasn't born in the United States - different from Barack Obama, who was born in Hawaii.
But of course, you'll never accept that - 'cause you're a member of the Ku Klux Klan, and you don't want Obama in the White House 'cause you're a white supremacist, who will do ANYTHING to keep people of color away from power. And guess what, Hitler-Savage? Your time is up.
You vote for McCain then. Vote for someone who wasn't born in the United States
McCain is actually Panamanian , correct?
Exactly. So Savage can take his "Obama is anti-American" BS and stick it where the sun don't shine, if he's going to vote for The Manchurian-Panamanian Candidate.
Now it's time for CPA to come here and tell us he understood what savage really meant and that savage is a really smart guy.
He's already formed a new political party. He's given up on McCain's chances
He's already formed a new political party. He's given up on McCain's chances
I've heard his party's slogan - "Be a Smarty - Join the Nazi Party".
Even if he didn't post his birth certificate, it really doesn't matter where he was born:
http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_citi.html
http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_citi.html
That is the thing that these loonies keep forgetting, is that no matter where Obama was born, he was born to an American citizen. You don't have to be born of terra firma American soil to be an American, and to run for President. You have to be a natural born citizen, meaning, Obama, born to a mother from Kansas, qualifies, as does McCain.
To Loonz and Magnolialover, excellent research, except for one small detail. You have posted a link to the law as it stands today. Because of that glaring deficiency, I can reasonably deduce that neither one of you are lawyers. When dealing with Barack Obama's citizenship, one must refer to laws as they were written at the time of his birth in 1961. Mr. Berg has done so in his case that is before the federal court. He IS, unlike you, a lawyer, and he is very thorough.
The law, in 1961, spoke of "pass-through" citizenship. If Barack Obama was, in fact, born in Kenya then it makes a HUGE amount of difference in the question of his status as "natural born". In 1961, in order for Barack Obama to be a "natural born" citizen if (as Mr. Berg claims) he was born on foreign soil to one parent who was NOT a US citizen (his father) and one that WAS a US citizen (Stanley), the following condition must have been met:
That the citizen parent had lived in the United States for 10 years (which Stanley had), 5 of which must have occured AFTER the age of 14. This is where Stanley did NOT meet the criteria to "pass citizenship" to her child IF the child was born on foreign soil. Stanley was only 18 years old when she gave birth to Barack Obama (some speculate that she was only 17, another embarrassing reason to NOT produce a birth certificate, but I digress) and therefore could NOT legally pass citizenship to him in Kenya.
Therefore, if Mr. Berg's allegations are proven correct, it in fact DOES make a difference where he was born. If Barack Obama was born in Kenya, by law as it stood in 1961, he is NOT a "natural born" American.
What Mr. Berg is demanding to see is the ACTUAL birth document prepared by the hospital that he was born in. This "vault" document would have the doctor's name and signature, type of birth (cessarian, breach, etc.) the child's footprints, so on and so forth. The document provided by Barack Obama is a "certificate of live birth", a government document. It provides no PROOF that he was born on US soil.
Since there is reason to believe that Barack Obama was born in Kenya, Mr. Berg is demanding to see this document to "clear the air", so to speak.
Barack Obama's own family members have stated that he was born in 2 different hospitals in Hawaii (grandmother says this one, half-sister says that one), NEITHER OF WHICH HAVE ANY RECORD OF HIS MOTHER BEING ADMITTED AT THE TIME OF HIS BIRTH. This is the basis for Mr. Berg's case.
Use some logic, here. If the case had NO legal basis whatsoever (as you claim), it would have been tossed by now. Phillip Berg is no crack-pot. He KNOWS the law. The question, NOW, is why has Barack Obama chosen to try and dismiss this case instead of the simple solution----just produce the document.
The Hawaiian state certificate of live birth is the standard form issued by the state verifying the information they have on record. The source of that information is the original birth certificate. The COLB would not be issued without having the birth certificate on file. The COLB has been the official document of record for all circumstances requiring one. The state of Hawaii does not issue one without verified records on file. It is every bit as valid as the original document would be. The one issued to Obama on display on the internet has an official certificate number, is certified by the state registrar and is stamped with the embossed official seal of the State of Hawaii. How do you propose that information became part of the official state record many years ago when no one would have any idea that Obama was going to become President of the US? Even to the point of getting a announcement printed in the local paper a week later?
Obama and the DNC are seeking to have the case dismissed because there are several charges made in it apart from the birth certificate nonsense. Producing the original document wouldn't satisfy the suit. Therefore, if a case can be made that Berg had no legal standing to bring suit, this frivolous lawsuit can be pushed aside more easily, saving everyone a waste of time.
It is true that generally a person must satisfy statutory requirements at the time of birth to be considered a natural-born citizen. Historical versions of statutes are very difficult to track down online without considerable expense, so I haven't looked up whether you (and/or Berg) are correct about the requirements in place as of the date of Obama's birth.
The big problem, though, is that Berg's complaint is so insanely constructed that the production of any one document is not going to rebut all averments. Despite your opinion of the man, he appears to me to be tilting at windmills, to put it politely. He did the same when he spent almost a year seeking recusal of justices in Bush v. Gore and later seeking to invalidate the decision. Then there's the 9/11 truth movement, but it's probably a bad idea to go into that too deeply on this thread.
It's as though the guy has never engaged in litigation before - he's crying foul that Obama wants to stay discovery while a motion to dismiss is pending, but since the motion to dismiss has colorable support, Berg can't explain why the judge shouldn't stay discovery - discovery is time-consuming, and if the case is ripe for dismissal on the pleadings, attorneys should not be spending hours upon hours to deal with documents for a case that will not go forward.
I think Berg's case is going to be dismissed for lack of standing, but federal courts move very deliberately (read: slowly) so we won't see it too quickly. If he were not an attorney, that might not create a big problem for him, but since he is, he is eligible for Rule 11 sanctions.
Spot-on, Solon. Excellent summary, and I totally agree about the resolution to this issue...just produce the document. Bring the darn thing to the debate tonight and hold it up for everyone to see on national television.
Oh balls. You raise phony issues and expect Obama to provide "proof." Well he already has. Enough already.
"How could he not be Muslim if he has a Muslim name? How could he not be Muslim if his father and grandfather were Muslims? How is that possible, when he has no known birth certificate?"
Funny, he understands that Islam is a religion, but somehow a name is supposed to dictate it. It's not a nationality. My parents were Mormon, and I'm certainly not. They could have named me "Brigham" and I still wouldn't be Mormon. He isn't a strictly stupid person, but he does seem to be rather insane.
This is clearly slander and is not protected by the 1st amendment. Obama really should consider civil prosecution. Not to do so not only encourages Savage, but it makes Obama appear weak and fearful of bullies.
To avoid prosecution Savage could be given the alternative to give a public apology and to pledge to never again make public statements about Obama's citizenship or religion.
The idea of legal action for slander, defamation, or something like this is an ABSOLUTE MUST. I don't know why some of the progressives have not gone this route.
These crazies have to be held accountable for what they say.
It would sure be great if the documents were submitted to the courts to put this argument to rest. That way there would be no doubts as to whether or not the certificate is legitimate, or factcheck's bias. It would also discredit Berg, and obamacrimes.com. Until then, it will not be "truly" verified to many (makes sense though).
Also, pretty sure I saw video footage of Obama campaigning with Odinga (see link- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6eVVVKFHu0 ). Video was actually just prior to Odinga's announcement, but what 's the difference?
The MSM sweeps everyting under the rug, and it is starting to smell fishy to a lot of people.
i'll be the first to agree that these radio host are on the crazy side but really the extreme right and the extreme left act the same. And for the retard that says mccain is a panamaian or what ever, at this time in history he was born on a Military base which is United States Soil to two american citizens. thus by law at this time makes him a United states citizen. My point to all of you is why won't obama just give the judge his records, that would get rid of any question about where he was born.
I love how Rick Roberts "contrast and compares" Obama to Hitler, but doesn't offer one example of why he came to that conclusion. What makes Obama and Hitler so similar, Rick? Please tell everyone so we can determine if you suffer from a lack of education or medication.
The stupidity of the Conservative Talk Radio audience cannot be overstated. Rush Limbaugh likes to demonstrate it every day. One of his favorite tricks is to play an audio clip, then lie to his sycophants about what they just heard. Today, he played a clip of Tom Brokaw saying that the current economic crisis could cause us to take a second look at our priorities, and our attitudes toward how we use credit. He went on to say that we may ask ourselves how big a house we really need, what kind of car, etc.
Rush then went on one of his tirades, claiming that Brokaw was advocating Marxism, that the government would tell us what kind of car to drive and how big a house we could buy. It was obvious to any objective listener that Brokaw was simply advocating the common sense preached by most financial advisors.
I have yet to hear one of his drooling listeners call in and point out one of these lies. Either they're too brainwashed to notice, or the screeners don't let them through. Maybe both.
Come on now. The only people they let through that disagree with Rush, are the comical looney folks that make Rush sound like he has a lot of common sense. An actual intelligent caller who could tear apart Rush's tirades would never be allowed in, and even if they were, they would never make it through the yelling and turning off of their phone so that they wouldn't ever be heard. This is how these guys play the game. It's fine, as long as you know that's what they're doing. Of course, there are a lot of syncophants who listen to Rush, et all, that just believe everything that tumbles from their lying lips, truth be damned. And hence, why they have dubbed themselves, proudly I might add, dittoheads. Talk about lemmings...
Does anyone know exactly how the screeners keep out the disagreeing callers? Those who might actually say the truth or talk sense? How do they identify only the supportive callers?
Of course they do. Do you ever listen to the show? I've been listening to Rush and his ilk for years. All we hear is complimentary callers, or callers who disagree who are so stupid, they're easy to talk down to in an "argument".
The question was, HOW do they identify only positive callers? HOW do they screen the one who calls and politely says he wants to say wonderful things to Savage, Rush, whoever, but who really wants to lay some facts and truth on them? Not everyone who calls to disagree tells them they are calling to disagree. Once in a while a sensible person gets through, but it is rare. They obviously have a way of screening out the sensible, intelligent caller, and I am asking how they do that.
Why can't the office in Hawaii find a real birth certificate?
You know where there's a really swell item you should read, Zamfir? Right at the top of this page, before the comments.
Yeah but there is already evidence that the birth certificate on the website might have been tampered with. And FactCheck.org is operated by the Annenberg project which Obama sat on the board of. Any visit to FactCheck.org shows the obvious liberal bias of that site.
Well hell, why don't you just mosey on over to redstate then? They've got a hummjob of a discussion going on right now about how Obama's real birth certificate from Kenya is in the hands of the Clinton camp! It's just days away from being revealed to the world that he was really born there! What a perfect setup for Hillary to have one last go for it in 2004. You'll fit right in with that discussion.
In fact, just because it's possible that records may not be available for reasons unknown - oh, say a hurricane wipes out the records building, or a flash flood, or a tornado for instance - we should go through every single american's birth certificate record and have the FBI analyze it to the nth degree. If there's even the slightest hint of rightwing concern about the validity of said certificate we can purge them from the voter rolls, move them to a detention center in Oklahoma, and eventually extradite them to some foreign country they most likely never saw even though they were born here. That would sure make you happy, wouldn't it?
Hey, ignoramus.
Obama was born to a white woman from Kansas who happens to be a US citizen. He could have been born in Timbuktu, and he'd still be able to run for President. Get it? He's a citizen. A natural born citizen. Constitution says so...
I suggest you listen to this much more highly qualified practitioner of the law (who has also been a prominent member of the Democrat party) about Constitutional law, and how it relates to obama's citizenship. It fully describes the current lawsuit against obama (that media refuses to report on), and all the possible outcomes of the lawsuit. Whichever way the case goes, very interesting stuff:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gA6_k3NtXZs
Oooohh! Same question for you from earlier. Like I said before, please, please please answer yes!
Posted by snoopy in reply to theplanner2477
Ah, so some moron who claims he's a die hard democrat is your source? Does that mean if I can produce a moron who claims he's a die hard republican with a lawsuit against mccain you will automatically claim it's a factual issue worth discussing? Hmmm?
I hope you answer yes...
Posted Tuesday October 14, 2008 9:48:38 PM EDT / Flag this comment
Your inability to research this man before making a stupid comment like that is embarassing, and your ignorance about the case is monumental. You say, "so some moron who claims he's a die hard democrat is your source?"
Here are some facts about this "moron" who "claims" he is a Democrat, Philip J. Berg: Berg is a former Deputy Attorney General of Pennsylvania; former candidate for Governor and U.S. Senate in Democratic Primaries; former Chair of the Democratic Party in Montgomery County; former member of Democratic State Committee; an attorney with offices in Montgomery County, PA and an active practice in Philadelphia, PA. He is licensed to practice before the US Supreme Court. From what I have read, he is a big Hillary Clinton supporter.
Get your facts straight before making yourself look stupid. And if you don't want to watch the video I posted, refer to solon's post above, he did a spot-on job with summing things up.
So you can't answer the question, eh? Who cares what party he's from? He has less credibility than Liebermann who at one time was a VP candidate for the democratic party. Throw your credentials around in a site that cares, like red state.
And for once in your life try to come here with facts that matter. You just look real stupid posting irrelevant garbage.
I remember not too long ago Obama was engaged in a battle with someone named Hillary Clinton for the party nomination. At the time, many people of your ilk were elated about this, since McCain was all by himself and that supposedly gave him an advantage, since the Democrats would have wounds to heal from all the infighting.
But today, the actions of a big Hillary Clinton supporter which go against Obama have great merit because he's a Democrat. I guess all those alliances just don't mean anything anymore.
Funny how things change, isn't it?
LOL
Berg is an Hillary supporter who can't get over the fact that she lost. He's about as creditable as a PUMA member. The lawsuit is simply a pathetic ploy by a unhappy Hillary supporter. Berg's no Democratic anything.
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Philip J. Berg, Esquire
555 Andorra Glen Court, Suite 12 Lafayette Hill, PA 19444-2531
Cell (610) 662-3005 (610) 825-3134
(800) 993-PHIL [7445]
Fax (610) 834-7659
philjberg@gmail.com
A Plea to Democratic SuperDelegates and Delegates to Nominate
the Candidate who can Win in November 2008 - Hillary Clinton
http://philipjberg.blogspot.com/2008/06/for-immediate-release-philip-j.html
Wingnuts Away, my boys, Wingnuts Aweigh.
Farewell to honest truth,
We lie at break of day-ay-ay-ay.
Through our last smear cam-paign, stink-in of crap,
Until we smear once more.
Here's wishing you a re-pub-lic-an score!
http://www.yestodemocracy.com/yes_to_democracy_no_to_pu/2008/08/wingnuts-away-.html
It is a shame that an allegedly reputable organization like Media Matters is so obviously in the tank for Obama. This article suggests that "the claim that Sen. Barack Obama has not produced a valid U.S. birth certificate" has been discredited. FYI, posting an alleged copy of a birth certificate on Obama's website is not the same thing as providing an actual certified copy of one to the court. Obama could stop all of this rumor and conjecture merely by springing for the $10 to purchase a certified copy, and submitting it to the court. Instead, he spends thousands of dollars trying to quash the lawsuit. John McCain has voluntarily provided all evidence of his citizenship; why won't Obama? What is he hiding. Shame on you Media Matters for sloppy and biased reporting.
Exactly!! That's what I want to know. And the attorney Philip J. Berg that is suing Obama to show an actual birth certificate is getting the runaround. Go ahead, Google "Philip J. Berg". The guy seems legit.
Go ahead, Google "Philip J. Berg". The guy seems legit.
Phil's first attempt to remove Obama and nominate Hillary was a online petition, which received a total of 209 signatures. The lawsuit is simply his second attempt, which will also fail. http://www.petitiononline.com/Nov2008/petition.html
http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?Nov2008&201
Berg is an unhappy Hillary supporter.
Oh god, two peas in a pod. You have proof Obama didn't spring that $10? Again? How many times must he buy another "copy" before you will believe it?
Either you are a little slow, or purposefully missing the point. All Obama has "consented" to do so far is to place an alleged copy of his birth certificate on his website. He refuses to spring for the $10 to submit a certified copy of it to the court. This question is for any Obama supporter: CAN YOU THINK OF ONE GOOD REASON WHY OBAMA WOULD NOT MERELY SUBMIT A CERTIFIED COPY OF HIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE TO THE COURT? I'll be waiting.
The slow one here is you. His mom is a US citizen. Regardless of where he was born you have no argument, he's automatically a US citizen. Read the damn constitution!
AGAIN, YOU CAN'T ANSWER THE QUESTION, CAN YOU. Thank you for proving my point that there is no plausible reason why Obama refuses to submit a certified copy of his birth certificate to the court. He is definitely hiding something.
No, you are an idiot. You can't provide a single piece of proof that Obama's certificate is a forgery. You forget, DA, you have to live by the same rules you demand. You must show us proof that comes from a non rightwing funded site that provides reason to question his legally certified certificate that he provided to factcheck.org. In the meantime, here's the part of the constitution that clearly shows why you are just providing nothing more than distraction to the subject. Now you are screwed, because not only do you have to provide a non-biased source that meets both your and my criteria for non-bias, you have to take an extra step and debunk the 14th amendment. Have fun doing something beyond saying "you can't answer the question" that you think demands something above and beyond logical...
Natural-born citizen
Who is a natural-born citizen? Who, in other words, is a citizen at birth, such that that person can be a President someday?
The 14th Amendment defines citizenship this way: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside." But even this does not get specific enough. As usual, the Constitution provides the framework for the law, but it is the law that fills in the gaps.
Currently, Title 8 of the U.S. Code fills in those gaps. Section 1401 defines the following as people who are "citizens of the United States at birth:"
Anyone falling into these categories is considered natural-born, and is eligible to run for President or Vice President. These provisions allow the children of military families to be considered natural-born, for example.
Separate sections handle territories that the United States has acquired over time, such as Puerto Rico (8 USC 1402), Alaska (8 USC 1404), Hawaii (8 USC 1405), the U.S. Virgin Islands (8 USC 1406), and Guam (8 USC 1407). Each of these sections confer citizenship on persons living in these territories as of a certain date, and usually confer natural-born status on persons born in those territories after that date. For example, for Puerto Rico, all persons born in Puerto Rico between April 11, 1899, and January 12, 1941, are automatically conferred citizenship as of the date the law was signed by the President (June 27, 1952). Additionally, all persons born in Puerto Rico on or after January 13, 1941, are natural-born citizens of the United States. Note that because of when the law was passed, for some, the natural-born status was retroactive.
The law contains one other section of historical note, concerning the Panama Canal Zone and the nation of Panama. In 8 USC 1403, the law states that anyone born in the Canal Zone or in Panama itself, on or after February 26, 1904, to a mother and/or father who is a United States citizen, was "declared" to be a United States citizen. Note that the terms "natural-born" or "citizen at birth" are missing from this section.
In 2008, when Arizona Senator John McCain ran for president on the Republican ticket, some theorized that because McCain was born in the Canal Zone, he was not actually qualified to be president. However, it should be noted that section 1403 was written to apply to a small group of people to whom section 1401 did not apply. McCain is a natural-born citizen under 8 USC 1401(c): "a person born outside of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents both of whom are citizens of the United States and one of whom has had a residence in the United States or one of its outlying possessions, prior to the birth of such person."
U.S. Nationals
A "national" is a person who is considered under the legal protection of a country, while not necessarily a citizen. National status is generally conferred on persons who lived in places acquired by the U.S. before the date of acquisition. A person can be a national-at-birth under a similar set of rules for a natural-born citizen. U.S. nationals must go through the same processes as an immigrant to become a full citizen. U.S. nationals who become citizens are not considered natural-born.
Becoming a citizen
A non-citizen may apply to become a citizen of the United States. At no time will such a person ever be considered natural-born (unless the U.S. Code is changed in some way). The process to become a citizen involves several steps, including applying to become and becoming a permanent resident (previously known as a resident alien), applying to become and becoming naturalized, and finally taking the Oath of Allegiance to the United States. Children of naturalized U.S. citizens generally become citizens automatically, though they will also not be considered natural-born. There is a time constraint before a permanent resident can apply for naturalization, generally either 3 or 5 years. The other requirements are that there be a minimum length of time in a specific state or district, successful completion of a citizenship exam, ability to read, write, and speak English, and good moral character.
AGAIN, YOU CAN'T ANSWER THE QUESTION, CAN YOU. YOU ARE EMBARRASSING YOURSELF.
ONE MORE TIME, can you put forth one plausible reason why Obama refuses to submit a certified copy of his birth certificate to the court? And, please, no BS this time; just answer the question, or please just shut up and let intelligent individuals carry on this discussion. Thank you for your cooperation.
I guess you can't read. Please ask mommy to read my response for you. You are embarrassing yourself by refusing to acknowledge that I supplied an answer. Stop spewing BS and let the intelligent individuals carry on this discussion. Thank you for your cooperation.
The reason they do not jump everytime the wingnuts, like you, make a demand is that they will have to spend all their time catering to your pathetic requests which are designed to derail their focus. ie: because they're not stupid, stupid. They know how your game is played.
AGAIN, YOU CAN'T ANSWER THE QUESTION, CAN YOU. YOU ARE EMBARRASSING YOURSELF.
ONE MORE TIME, can you put forth one plausible reason why Obama refuses to submit a certified copy of his birth certificate to the court? And, please, no BS this time; just answer the question, or please just shut up and let intelligent individuals carry on this discussion. Thank you for your cooperation.
We'll see. :) Three weeks is a long time until election day.
Yes it is...
Can you say LANDSLIDE!!!!
IT DOESN'T MATTER WHERE HE WAS BORN. HE WAS BORN TO HIS MOTHER WHO IS AN AMERICAN CITIZEN. CASE OVER. CASE CLOSED.
You guys should really read up on this constitution thing.
C'mon, Mags. These morons don't believe in the constitution. That's why they had a serious discussion about running Ahhnold Schwarzenneger for president. It's win at all costs for them.
CAN YOU THINK OF ONE GOOD REASON WHY OBAMA WOULD REFUSE TO SUBMIT A CERTIFIED COPY OF HIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE TO THE COURT?
Can you think of one good reason why you dummies keep bringing up an issue that the constitution clearly covers regardless of your assinine efforts at distraction?
SEE, YOU CAN'T ANSWER THE QUESTION, BECAUSE THERE IS NO GOOD REASON WHY HE WOULDN'T PUT THIS ISSUE BEHIND HIM BY SUBMITTING HIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE. Thank you for proving my point.
I answered the question. You just refuse to accept the answer. Thanks for proving you are nothing more than a partisan idiot who can't provide a single piece of proof that there's an issue with Barack's certified birth certificate that he provided to factcheck.org.
AGAIN, YOU CAN'T ANSWER THE QUESTION, CAN YOU. YOU ARE EMBARRASSING YOURSELF.
ONE MORE TIME, can you put forth one plausible reason why Obama refuses to submit a certified copy of his birth certificate to the court? And, please, no BS this time; just answer the question, or please just shut up and let intelligent individuals carry on this discussion. Thank you for your cooperation.
again, you don't like my answer. If you don't like it and are unwilling to acccept my response then please just shut up and let intelligent individuals carry on this discussion. Thank you for your cooperation.
One good reason:
Because he is not going to play the wingnut game designed to disrupt his focus.
Ok, I'm going to type this real slow so you mental midgets can keep up - it's irrelevant if he was born in Hawaii (which he was) as he is an American citizen. Unless you and any of your wing nut friends can prove differently, then STFU!!!!!
To paraphrase Savage, not all conversatives are morons, but all morons are Republicans.
But, you asked a question, so here's an answer - Obama is not going to give an ounce of credibility to this asinine question because the official govt agencies have already verifiied the authenticity. It's like a state patrol officer asking for the results of your driving test after you hand him your license. It's obvious as the age spots on McCain's skin that Obama is on the up and up.
Go peddle your craziness else where...
OBAMA FIGHTS LAWSUIT ALLEGING HE IS NOT AN AMERICAN CITIZEN! HE WILL NOT COOPERATE WITH THE COURT IN PROVING HIS ELIGIBILITY TO BE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:
Every voter in this country should view this video. The question is very simple; if Obama is eligible to run for President of this country, all he has to do is spring for the $10 or so to obtain a certified copy of his birth certificate, and submit it to the court. If he did, and he is a natural born citizen (assuming he did not lose his citizenship in Indonesia), then the issue would be laid to rest. This would be better for Obama, and better for the nation. Instead, however, he spends thousands of dollars to have the lawsuit dismissed, so that the American people cannot find out whether he is, indeed, eligible to run for President. CAN ANY OBAMA SUPPORTER GIVE ONE GOOD REASON WHY OBAMA WILL NOT SUBMIT A CERTIFIED COPY OF HIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE TO THE COURT? I didn't think so.
http://www.americanpatrol.com/MISCNEWS/2006-UP/ELECTIONS/2008/OBAMA/OctSurpriseVideo081012.html?v=gA6_k3NtXZs
Ah, so some moron who claims he's a die hard democrat is your source? Does that mean if I can produce a moron who claims he's a die hard republican with a lawsuit against mccain you will automatically claim it's a factual issue worth discussing? Hmmm?
I hope you answer yes...
Hey, I've got an idea. Since you want to engage in BS journalism, here's another "fact" courtesy of Red State. I'm quite sure it's a site of conservative "information" vetted by you. Enjoy your next talking point courtesy of snoopy!
Nearing The Bottom Of The Barrel: Red State Floats Enquirer "Obama Molestation" Story
By Logan Murphy Tuesday Oct 14, 2008 4:45pmI read about this earlier. What in God's outhouse is an "underage gay affair with a pedophile"? That's molestation, that's sexual abuse. The phrasing makes it sound like there would be something consentual going on there.
How wildly partisan and utterly shameless does someone have to be to not only try to make hay out of a rumor about something of this nature, but to do it in such a way that makes it sound like the child was willing? The linguistic contortions must be outmatched only by those of the moral self-justifications. If it gets any lower than that, I can't imagine how.
The question is very simple; if Obama is eligible to run for President of this country, all he has to do is spring for the $10 or so to obtain a certified copy of his birth certificate, and submit it to the court.
First of all, that's not a question.
Second, if he is eligible, why would he spend 10 bucks to become eligible? Doesn't seem like the sort of fiscal sense you'd want in a president.
Seriously, even posting anonymously, you're making a fool of yourself.
MUST... <dzzt!> CALL... <dzzt! wink! wink!> RUSH... <dzzt! spark! wink!>...
AGAIN, YOU CAN'T ANSWER THE QUESTION, CAN YOU. YOU ARE EMBARRASSING YOURSELF.
ONE MORE TIME, can you put forth one plausible reason why Obama refuses to submit a certified copy of his birth certificate to the court? And, please, no BS this time; just answer the question, or please just shut up and let intelligent individuals carry on this discussion. Thank you for your cooperation.
As the info above states, he did post a certified copy, you don't want to recognize it as legit because you don't like factcheck.org. Get over it, he's never gonna spend another $10 to personally give you a certified copy.
Because, for one thing, birth certificates can be used for things we like to call identification theft, which is why mine is locked in my safety deposit box in my bank. Second of all, as others have pointed out to you, and as other websites have proven beyond the shadow of a doubt, Obama is an American citizen. The mere fact that you can't wrap your ignorant mind around the fact that Obama's mother is an American citizen, and NO MATTER WHERE he might have been born (even though it was in the US State of Hawaii) he'd still be eligible to run for President, because he was born an American citizen. He would be born in Iceland, it wouldn't matter. He'd still be a natural born citizen as defined by the Constitution. The fact that he doesn't want to produce his birth certificate for some wingnut demanding to see it in court means, well, nothing... Why? Because it's a waste of everybody's time, because again, Obama's mother is an AMERICAN CITIZEN. Get it? I'm sure that you don't. The Constitution says that Obama can run for President. The Constitution says that McCain can run for President (remember, he was not born on US soil at ALL).
Stop acting like an ignorant oaf, because you can't read the laws, or read the Constitution. Obama doesn't need to produce his birth certificate, even though, he already has. Posted it on his website for ALL to see. Let factcheck.org review it, so that they could tear down these stupid rumors, and that's not good enough for you? I'm sure you'll say something about Obama being on the Annenberg board or something like that, but guess what? Annenberg was a die hard REPUBLICAN. And Factcheck.org is not the same as the board that Obama served on, which was about educational reform.
You guys should really come at the man with something more than a birth certificate thing. Again, read the Constitution. It might surprise you at what is actually in there.
WRONG, OBAMA BREATH. Privacy should not be an excuse because Obama has already posted an "alleged" copy his website. SO, AGAIN, WHY IS OBAMA REFUSING TO SUBMIT A CERTIFIED COPY OF HIS BIRTH CERTICATE TO THE COURT? TRY AGAIN, OBAMA CULTISTS.
Do you know why he fights this stupid lawsuit? Because, it's stupid and without merit at all. The judge hearing it, should throw it out immediately.
Do you really think a Constitutional scholar is going to run for President if he is hiding that he's not eligible? I'm sure you guys are working up impeachment papers already, and will be hard at work trying to take down Obama from day 1, just like Clinton.
IF IT HAS NO MERIT, HE CAN STOP IT IN ITS TRACKS BY MERELY SUBMITTING A CERTIFIED COPY OF HIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE TO THE COURT. WHY DOES HE REFUSE TO DO SO? GIVE ME ONE GOOD REASON, IF YOU CAN.
You know, if you keep repeating the same things over and over again, it doesn't make them any more true than before.
Why does he refuse to? I answered your silly little question before, but I'll do so again. Because the lawsuit is without merit, and he doesn't have time to play paddy cake with some whack job who thinks he has the answers to the "Obama question". He is sort of busy right now, you know, running for the Presidency. He also doesn't need to make public private records, because it is not required by law that he do so. Obama is an American citizen qualified to run for President as put forth in the Constitution of the United States of America.
HE WILL NOT COOPERATE WITH THE COURT IN PROVING HIS ELIGIBILITY TO BE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:
WHICH court requested Obama prove his citizenship??????????????
Judging by the lack of intelligent response on this thread, I conclude that NONE of you have done any credible research. I refer the following to my post from October 15, 2008 2:40:19 AM EDT ON THIS VERY THREAD!
Snoopy, wzwriter, Irony101, brabantio, matrixbio2014, Col. Harland Sanders, Steve Wyp.
And now the questions to be answered: WHY AVOID PRODUCING A ROCK-SOLID, CASE-CLOSED DOCUMENT (THE "VAULT" BIRTH CERTIFICATE FROM THE HOSPITAL)? WHY THE MOTION TO DISMISS? WHY THE REFUSAL TO COOPERATE? WHAT IS HE NOT TELLING US?
I just answered above, but I'll repeat it for you.
Obama and the DNC are seeking to have the case dismissed because there are several charges made in it apart from the birth certificate nonsense. Producing the original document wouldn't satisfy the suit. Therefore, if a case can be made that Berg had no legal standing to bring suit, this frivolous lawsuit can be pushed aside more easily, saving everyone a waste of time.
I like how the failure of anyone to respond at 3:30 in the flippin' morning is some indication that liberals have been stymied by solon's brilliant argumentation. That is some funny stuff right there.
I've misplaced my MMFA poster duty roster. Who was responsible for 3:30 AM responses this morning?
THE OTHER DOCUMENTS WHICH ARE REQUESTED ARE ALSO OF NO CONSEQUENCE TO OBAMA, UNLESS HE IS LYING ABOUT HIS CITIZENSHIP.
AGAIN, YOU CAN'T ANSWER THE QUESTION, CAN YOU. YOU ARE EMBARRASSING YOURSELF.
ONE MORE TIME, can you put forth one plausible reason why Obama refuses to submit a certified copy of his birth certificate to the court? And, please, no BS this time; just answer the question, or please just shut up and let intelligent individuals carry on this discussion. Thank you for your cooperation.
It's not simply a case of documents provided and I didn't say it was. Please learn to read more carefully and you might not allow yourself to be fooled by that kind of nonsense peddler.
Berg's frivolous lawsuit also makes charges that Obama lost his citizenship during his time in Indonesia and that he has dual or conflicting national loyalties with regard to Kenya and Indonesia. There are some other issues also raised. If his campaign starts addressing some elements of the suit he would be expected to address all of that nonsense. If there is a legitimate case to be made that Berg lacks standing to bring the suit, it provides a convenient way to brush aside a silly nuisance. Obama and the DNC would be foolish not to use that tool.
Obama has made available the official document routinely provided by the state of Hawaii. This document provides an official certificate number, is certified by the registrar of the state and bears the embossed seal of the state of Hawaii. This documentation is accepted in all states as proper legal documentation of birth. It is based on the documentation the state received 47 years ago from which information was entered into the official record.
All of the official documentation supports the fact that Obama was born in Hawaii in 1961. Berg is coming in and basically saying "I believe that the official documentation is wrong. You have to prove me wrong." The legal system doesn't work that way. Berg is making the affirmative charges, it is his responsibility to support his case.
Finally, there's a key just above your shift key called a Capslock key. Press it when you find yourself typing in all caps and you won't look like such a fool.
STILL, YOU REFUSE TO ANSWER THE QUESTION. WHAT DOES OBAMA HAVE TO LOSE IF HE SUBMITS A COPY OF HIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE? KEEP TRYING, OBAMA CULTISTS. I'LL BE WAITING FOR A PLAUSIBLE REASON.
The capslock thing really does knock about ten points of the apparent intelligence of any poster. Learning to use it might allow us to take you more seriously. Then again, the vapid nature of your posts will pretty much nullify that.
He's provided the documentation that is acceptable to all agencies of the US government and all of the states of the union. If he starts picking and choosing which nonsense from Berg's frivolous suit he responds to, he'll open himself up to addressing all of it. He has nothing to gain, because the nutjobs who are buying into this BS aren't going to vote for him in any case.
As I understand it the Court has not asked Obama to sumit a certified copy of his birth certificate to it.
Have you provided a certified copy of YOUR birth certificate to the Court? If not, why your refusal?
If I were running for any office, and this issue came up, I would have absolutely no problem submitting a certified copy of my birth certificate to the court, or even the press. Why not? After all, I have nothing to hide. Obviously, Obama does.
If you were running for president and you responded to every loony tunes who made a ridiculous request, that wouldn't leave you much time for campaigning.
But I guess that would be your call.
Why give any form of credibility to a guy who in the past has filed a RICO case against the US government accusing it of complicity in the 9/11 attack?
Berg is a nutbag, a well educated nutbag, but still not worth time and attention.
So, how did you namejack the real solon's name? And why do you refuse to acknowledge that the 14th amendment supercedes that drivel you wrote?
I didn't namejack anything. And unless you're a black and white beagle with a little yellow bird for a friend, I wouldn't start spouting anything about namejacking.
As to your left-field reference to the 14th amendment my answer is: What does the 14th amendment have to do with an assertion that Barack Obama actually born in Kenya to a non-citizen father and a mother who was ineligible to legally pass citizenship to her child born abroad? NOTHING!!
That's not what "namejack" means. It means someone else here had the name before you, therefore you shouldn't have access to it.
I have to wonder.... given the irrational hysteria being fomented on the Right about Obama, what will they do if Obama wins? I've heard them calling in to local Talk Radio, and they are threatening to fire all their workers and head to the woods with guns and beef jerky.
After President Numbnuts won in 2004, I was severely disappointed, and couldn't believe the stupidity of my fellow Americans, and I kvetched as much as anybody. I was, however, able to function and go on with my life. Will the Evangelical Troglodytes be able to function, considering that the Republican Liars have convinced them that Obama is a Marxist Muslim Extremist Terrorist who will raise their taxes, confiscate their guns and eat their children?
Assuming an Obama win, I can't wait to hear PigBoy Limbaugh's show the day after the election.
What occurs to me about all this is that the President is still a Republican at the moment. He probably wants McCain to win. Couldn't he, as the most powerful man in the free world, make a couple of phone calls and find out if the certificate of live birth is in fact not genuine?
HE COULD HAVE ONE OF HIS ARMY OF EMPLOYEES MAIL A CERTIFIED COPY OF HIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE TO THE COURT IN AN HOUR. THE "HE DOESN'T HAVE TIME" ARGUMENT IS BOGUS.
AGAIN, YOU CAN'T ANSWER THE QUESTION, CAN YOU. YOU ARE EMBARRASSING YOURSELF.
ONE MORE TIME, can you put forth one plausible reason why Obama refuses to submit a certified copy of his birth certificate to the court? And, please, no BS this time; just answer the question, or please just shut up and let intelligent individuals carry on this discussion. Thank you for your cooperation.
Nuts, you has got them.
Because he knows it won't be enough. To these people there will never be enough proof. It's like dealing with a child stuck in the "But why?" stage. No matter what one says there will always be another question and the only way to escape the endless and pointless discussion is to avoid it entirely.
OBVIOUSLY, NO ONE CAN GIVE A PLAUSIBLE ANSWER TO THIS QUESTION, YET. MCCAIN HAS PROVIDED A CERTIFIED COPY OF HIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE WHEN IT BECAME AN ISSUE. WHY IS OBAMA REFUSING TO DO SO? TRY AGAIN, OBAMA CULTISTS.
Where can I get McCain's birth certificate? I have a bad credit rating and I could use his for a while.
Also, as another reply, you have apparently appointed yourself arbiter of what constitutes "plausible." Since you're defending this Berg fellow who has filed an implausible complaint, I don't think you deserve the appointment.
Let’s review the facts reported by the Washington Post:
1. Sen. McCain wrote in his autobiography that he was born in the Panama Canal.
2. A citizen filed suit in Federal Court, and asked to see Sen. McCain’s birth certificate.
3. Citing a procedural error, the Dept. of Homeland Security refused to provide it.
4. But John McCain’s campaign volunteered to show a hard copy to a reporter anyway, and that document named the hospital where McCain was born.
5. There is also a newspaper clipping confirming his birth.
6. Roberta McCain, the Senators 96-year-old-mother, provided further verification when she told a story about giving birth to her son.
Now let’s look at the facts of Barack Obama’s situation (as I understand them):
1. Sen. Obama wrote in his memoir that he was born in Hawaii (or did he go that far?).
2. Thousands if not millions of citizens have asked to see Sen. Obama’s birth certificate. None of those people to my knowledge have yet filed a lawsuit.
3. Sen. Obama dodged the request for months.
4. Finally, Sen. Obama published an image on a website that is meant to be his Certification of Live Birth (COLB) from the State of Hawaii. The reference number is blacked out, and to the naked eye, ALL of the markings required to make it a certified document are absent.
5. The COLB form proffered on the Internet by Sen. Obama is used by the State of Hawaii as an abstract of one’s original birth certificate. The abstract includes only bare-bones information: names of the child and parents, city, county, dates, etc.
6. The COLB form does NOT include detailed information from the original birth certificate, such as the name of the hospital, doctor’s signature, parents’ occupations, parents’ signatures, etc.
7. Prior to 2001, the State of Hawaii’s COLB formed included most if not all of the information from the original birth certificate.
8. Sen. Obama, by showing a recently dated COLB, would apparently have us believe that he does not possess an older version with more detailed information.
9. There are conflicting reports about the hospital in which Sen. Obama was born.
10. Sen. Obama has yet to show a hard copy of his birth certificate (not even the short COLB form) to a reporter.
11. No newspaper clippings have been produced verifying Sen. Obama’s birth.
12. Although the Senator’s mother is no longer living, his maternal grandmother (in her 80s) is alive and lucid by all accounts; yet she has been made “unavailable” by the Senator’s campaign.
13. Questions remain unanswered about the authenticity of Sen. Obama’s birth certificate and thus the facts related to his birth.
So, what do you say, Senator Obama? Are you willing to be as responsive as your Republican opponent in showing reporters a hard copy of your birth certificate that identifies the hospital in which you were born?
Sen. Obama dodged the request for months. - theplanner2477
There's a difference between dodging and ignoring, and that difference is driving the nutjobs crazy.
Finally, Sen. Obama published an image on a website that is meant to be his Certification of Live Birth (COLB) from the State of Hawaii. The reference number is blacked out, and to the naked eye, ALL of the markings required to make it a certified document are absent. - theplanner2477
Further images have been posted that show the official certificate number, the certification by the state registrar and the embossed seal of the state of Hawaii. Here's a clue, the certificate number is traceable and precludes the possibility of forgery.
That document is accepted legal verification for the US government, all US states and most foreign countries. Barring genuine evidence of fraud, it's good enough for most rational people. I understand that condition excludes you.
There are conflicting reports about the hospital in which Sen. Obama was born. - theplanner2477
Meaningless. I couldn't tell you the hospital my older brother or my sisters were born in. I could take a guess on some of my nieces and nephews, but I'd probably have no better than a 50-50 chance of getting it right.
No newspaper clippings have been produced verifying Sen. Obama’s birth. - theplanner2477
False. There is a clipping that has been published from a local Hawaiian advertiser that also posts such announcements. It is undeniably from that time period, appearing about a week after his birth.
Although the Senator’s mother is no longer living, his maternal grandmother (in her 80s) is alive and lucid by all accounts; yet she has been made “unavailable” by the Senator’s campaign. - theplanner2477
Probably entirely by her choice. I know that's what my wife would choose if one of my children or grandchildren ran for President. She'd hate being on camera. Are you nutjobs trying to claim she's being held prisoner?
Ah, so this is simply about getting revenge because someone supposedly asked McCain the same question. How low the right has stooped...
Legislation Introduced - by Democrats - to Declare McCain a U.S. Citizen
April 10, 2008 7:21 PM
With questions - however serious - about whether Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., is eligible to run for president since he was born outside U.S. borders on an American Naval base, Sens. Patrick Leahy, D-Vermont, the chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, and Sen. Claire McCaskill, D-Mo. today introduced a non-binding resolution expressing the sense of the U.S. Senate that McCain qualifies as a "natural born Citizen," as specified in the Constitution and eligible for the highest office in the land.
Co-sponsors include Sens. Hillary Clinton, D-NY, and Barack Obama, D-Illinois; Leahy said he anticipates it will pass unanimously.
SAN FRANCISCO (AP) -- A federal judge has thrown out a lawsuit seeking to remove John McCain from the California ballot because he was born in the Panama Canal Zone.
U.S. District Judge William Alsup ruled late Tuesday that the law at the time of McCain's birth automatically granted citizenship to offspring of U.S. citizens.
AS WE ALL KNOW, OBAMA'S FATHER WAS NOT A U.S. CITIZEN, therefore, if Obama were born outside of the U.S., he would not be a natural born citizen. Again, WHY IS OBAMA REFUSING TO PROVIDE A CERTIFIED COPY OF HIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE TO THE COURT?
LET ME REPEAT! WHY WON'T JOHN MCCAIN PROVIDE ME WITH HIS ORIGINAL BIRTH CERTIFICATE! I HAVE LEGITIMATE QUESTIONS ABOUT WHERE HE WAS BORN AND HE IS AN ARAB MUSLIM TERRORIST AND I WANT HIS BIRTH CERTIFICATE!
Me too! And don't you dare try to pass off something you got off the internets.
I'M FINE WITH BOTH OBAMA AND MCCAIN SUBMITTING CERTIFIED COPIES.
Alright, I'm done feeding trolls now.
YOU COULDN'T COME UP WITH A VALID EXCUSE, SO YOU'RE DONE. I'm glad we agree that there is no valid reason Obama will not release his birth certificate.
That's what we call "bait," folks.
The Court hasn't asked him for it.
The plaintiff has requested it, and Obama could end this lawsuit right now by merely complying with the request. Instead, he spends thousands of dollars to quash the lawsuit, and deny the American public the trust. AGAIN, WHY WOULD HE REFUSE TO PROVIDE THIS INFORMATION?
The plaintiff asked for it?............THE PLAINTIFF?
You mean Philip J. Berg? The Philip J. Berg who started an online petition to have Hillary nominated because he thought she was a better candidate? The online petition where a total of 209 folks sign on. I should say the total was 209, but that included Berg's signature and a few duplicates. THAT Philip J. Berg? The same Philip J. Berg who filed an temporary restraining order that was dismissed? THAT'S the plaintiff that Obama is suppose to produce his birth certificate for?
You're freaking nuts!
Planner, Obama will NOT acknowledge this lawsuit in hopes that it will a.) go away or b.) be delayed until AFTER the election. Why?
He's caught, and he knows it. His own WIFE even referred to his ADOPTION BY LOLO SOETORO.
His grandmother in Kenya has gone on record as saying that she was IN THE HOSPITAL IN KENYA when he was born.
Barack Obama has stated that he was born at Queens hospital in Hawaii. Queens hospital has NO RECORD OF OBAMAS MOTHER BEING ADMITTED AT THE TIME OF HIS BIRTH.
Barack Obama CANNOT show PROOF that he was born on US soil. His mother was not old enough to pass citizenship to him if he were born in Kenya.
However, UPDATE, Philip Berg is now claiming that he has PROOF that Obama was born in Kenya. Keep your ears open for this one. Where's Jerome Corsi?
I think it's cute when you nutsacks start talking to each other like you're sane.
AND I DEMAND THAT BOTH OF YOU, SOLON AND PLANNER, SHOW ME YOUR LIBRARY CARDS AND PROOF OF PURCHASE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I was going to dismiss you as an unhinged, barely literate moron but your use of the Caps Lock has completely changed my mind. You have been given multiple extremely plausible reasons why the Obama campaign is not willing to submit to the self-appointed authority of people like Berg and the talk radio brigade and still persist in this ridiculous line of questioning.
SO, STATE ONE GOOD REASON. I'm waiting for more than just BS.
Reasons have been provided. You decline to accept them, just as all of the nutjobs will decline to accept any further evidence Obama might put forward. Nothing will ever be enough for the rabid irrational right.
Let me save Captain CapsLock the trouble of responding-
SEE STILL NO ANSWERS FROM YOU CULTISTS!!!!!!!! UNTIL YOU ADMIT THAT OBAMA IS A D*MN FOREIGNER I WON'T PAY ANY ATTENTION TO ANYTHING YOU SAY!!!!
Now I'll put the part of my brain that controls logic and reason back in so I don't accidentally do something like join the Republican Party.
You captured his essence perfectly. I hope you reverted back to normal before any permanent damage was done.
"...and let intelligent individuals carry on this discussion." So I guess you have nothing further to add to the discussion? I thank you for your cooperation.
Now run along and let the adults have a chance to speak.
Oops, Solon, I missed you 1:50 post.
tz
I would dismiss the "two different hospitals" bit. I can't count how many times I've seen people argue over things like this. "No, that surgery was when we were in the old house, remember? We didn't move until the next year". People who have seen any number of children born at multiple hospitals may get those details mixed up
Well, I wanted to see what Solon had to say about it, since a lot of words get bandied about here, and who knows where they come from?
ajzito, thanks for your interest. You seem to be seeing things rationally, unlike most of the other posters on this site.
I offer you a link to the Federal Court Case with .pdf files of all documents submitted to date. It is extensive and exhaustive reading, more reading than most MMFA commenters would care to partake in, but it is nonetheless riveting and enlightening. I hope this helps you. And I'm sure you'll draw the same conclusion that planner and I have: Why does Obama want this case delayed/dismissed.
http://dockets.justia.com/docket/court-paedce/case_no-2:2008cv04083/case_id-281573/
Let's rewrite the headline for this thread to make it more accurate:
"Obama produces certificate of live birth from Hawaii, a document that does not satisfy the burden of proof that he was born on US soil. Reports surface that he was born in Kenya instead. Obama uncooperative. Why?"
If he would just show the hospital documents proving that he was born in Hawaii, this would all go away. Why won't he cooperate?
BTW, the theory is that his mother who was in Kenya late into her pregnancy (not contested) was unable to travel due to her condition, gave birth to Obama in Kenya, then traveled to Hawaii to "register his birth." This would be easily accomplished by claiming that she delivered the child in her home.
If his mother claimed that he was born at home, why wouldn't she tell everyone that? Why would you have people who said he was born at a hospital at all?
What if he actually was born at home? Then there wouldn't be any hospital document anyway. And don't tell me that you'd accept some affidavit from a witness, with all the inane chatter about a forged government document going around.
Just curious, was she living in Kenya, or just there temporarily? I find it hard to believe that a failure to return home a few days earlier would make any sort of significant difference.
The problem is that there are (now) family members who report that he was born in not 2, but 3 different hospitals. Obama himself says he was born at Queens Hospital in Honolulu (which has no record of a hospital stay by his mother), his half-sister says he was born at Kapiolani Medical Center (which also has no record of a hospital stay by his mother).
Think I'm some wingnut? Fine. Search both hospitals online and you will find "verified reports" that Barack Obama was born at BOTH hospitals!! Maybe he IS the Messiah.
But then there's his paternal grandmother, brother and sister in Kenya, who have said that they were present when Barack was born at the Coast Provincial General Hospital in Mombasa, Kenya!!
At this point, it is undeniable that someone is LYING!! But hang on, MMFA posters, it ain't me! It's SOMEONE in Obama's family. In fact, it has to be more than one lie being told due to the 3 birth sites involved!!
And brabantio, I hope you've read this entire thread and it has sunk in by now:
Barack Obama was born to an 18 year old US citizen mother and a NON-citizen father in 1961. His birth was indeed REGISTERED in Hawaii.....but did his birth ACTUALLY OCCUR in Hawaii?
If Barack Obama was indeed born in Hawaii as he states, he could easily acquire the long-form birth RECORD (NOT certificate, RECORD) from either Queens or Kapiolani Hospitals. He is fighting efforts to order the disclosure of these records. They would prove that he was indeed BORN (not just REGISTERED) on US soil and, as such, is a "natural born" citizen.
However, if Barack Obama's Kenyan relatives are the ones being truthful, then the citizenship/naturalization laws at that time would have prevented his mother from "passing" citizenship onto him because she had not reached the age of 19 (10 yr US resident, 5 of which occur AFTER the age of 14). In that case he would not qualify as a "natural born" US citizen and would therefore be ineligible to hold the office of President of the United States. That was the law in 1961.
So to answer your question.....She WAS in Kenya temporarily (she was still a resident of Hawaii) and YES, her failure to return home to give birth (if that's the case) WOULD have made a significant difference in the eyes of the law in 1961.
So, why is Barack Obama fighting efforts that would require him to produce these RECORDS?
Or the more logical question..If he were born in Hawaii, why WOULD'T he just produce the records? His own family's inconsistencies have caused this mess. Not a conspiracy, not a witch-hunt.
To me, Obama's refusal to resolve this issue leads me to believe that he is hiding something. And I haven't even started on the "Barry Soetoro, citizen of Indosia" topic.
What's the "significant difference" in the eyes of the law in 1961? Wouldn't it be remarkably easy for the child to get citizenship, considering the mother lives in the United States? It's not like they're going to deport the two of them for that, so I don't know what other practical choice they have.
So then the question is, what practical difference is there between a citizen and a natural-born citizen? Does it make any difference for school? Work? Any aspect of the average person's life at all? Or is the idea that she went through this ruse on the 1-in-50,000,000 chance that her son might be a contender for the Presidency? That prospect becomes even more ludicrous when you consider that this was before the Civil Rights movement, so it would seem even less likely that a black person might have a chance at high office at that time.
Has anyone checked the records at Coast Provincial General Hospital, by the way? It seems like someone would have, yet we haven't heard anything about any records being found.
Quick answers, almost lunchtime. Citizen and Natural born citizen doesn't make much difference in a person's lifetime, unless you wish to serve as President or Vice-President. The constitution makes the distinction that you must be "natural born". If Obama were born in Kenya in 1961, the law would not classify him as "natural born". I covered this earlier in the thread. It is also extensively discussed in the lawsuit filings. I provided a link earlier as well.
"Natural born" citizen - ME. I can serve as President.
Citizen - Arnold Schwartzenegger. Arnold cannot.
A birth CERTIFICATE does not establish "natural born" status. A birth RECORD does. Obama is fighting a request to produce his birth RECORD.
As far as Coast Provincial, the lawsuit specifically names it as Obama's alleged birthplace and there are now reports by Judah Benjamin that certified copies of a Kenyan birth record on Obama have been sent to three individuals, although it is unclear whether or not the Plaintiff in the case is one of those individuals.
UPDATE: Someone from Brigham Young has filed an intervening party on behalf of the American voter demanding documentation that proves that Obama is a "natural born" citizen of the US.
This story is moving quickly, I can hardly keep up.
Actually, a birth certificate does establish "natural born" status, since it states he was born in Hawaii. Your argument is that the document was established through fraud.
Apparently you aren't grasping the concept of the rhetorical question. Of course there's no difference in everyday life, only if you're trying to run for President. So again, what purpose would there possibly be for his mother to lie about this at all? Just on the struck-by-lightning odds that he might someday run for President, contemplated while black people were still considered second-class citizens in many places? Then she tells the Government that he was born at home, while telling others he was born at various hospitals?
It just doesn't make a lot of sense, does it? It doesn't make for a coherent theory if you really think about it.
Oh, and as to your first question about his mother just telling everyone that he was born in the home......she can't really do that. She's dead.
I meant at the time, obviously. I said "why wouldn't she tell everyone that" not "why doesn't she tell everyone that".
Understood. The quick answer to that is that I really don't know.
But hindsight aside, my concern is that there are now 3 different stories from Obama and his relatives about where he was born. Don't you think that we, the people who are going to the polls, need to have the confidence in his eligibility when there are conflicting stories? (Not to mention the MSM completely ignoring the lawsuit) My God, they were all over McCain when the Panama thing came up, weren't they?
Were they? I thought the Panama issue was sort of silly, myself. And I think the point of being a natural-born citizen is that you grew up in the USA. That's understandable, that we want someone who understands what it's like to grow up here. If someone spends their first few days in a foreign country, that makes zero difference and is just a silly technicality. I don't think the Founding Fathers really would intend for someone to be disqualified on that basis any more than they would intend for the child of someone in our armed forces serving out-of-country should be disqualified.
provided the original document to FactCheck.org, whose staff concluded that it "meets all of the requirements from the State Department for proving U.S. citizenship." MMFA
That doesn't address the issue. The issue is: Was he born on US soil? This document does not provide that evidence, a crucial detail when dealing with establishment of "natural born" status, a requirement to serve as POTUS.
Have you ever tried to get a copy of a birth certificate? I needed to get a certified copy of my birth certificate for my wedding. As I was born in the same generation as Obama, and I can tell you from personal experience, that it was not an easy task to locate a copy.
Remember, computers didn't even exist in people's imaginations yet, so everything was either filed in paper form or fiche. Things get misfiled, or lost.
And let's just say there is an iota of doubt, aren't you arguing technicalities? Although the COLB doesn't satisfy the letter of the law, it's readily apparent he was born in Hawaii. Now then, if you have facts (not suppositions) that says he wasn't, show me.
I guess it's the usual conservative ploy that if you can't win on merit, then cast doubt through lies, intellectual dishonesty, and half-truths.
Steve, you're confused. It is not readily apparent that he was BORN in Hawaii.
There IS irrefutable evidence that his birth was REGISTERED in Hawaii. I DO believe that the birth CERTIFICATE is genuine.
Unfortunately, this doesn't prove that he was ACTUALLY BORN on US soil. And because of the circumstances surrounding his parents, were he to have been born in Kenya, he is not a "natural born" US citizen as the Constitution mandates.
Because of the inconsistencies in the statements by Obama and his own family members, there is a doubt about where he was born.
I have NO facts that prove that Obama was born in Kenya. On the other hand, Obama and the DNC are fighting efforts that would require him to prove that he WAS BORN (not just registered) in Hawaii.
No conservative ploy, no lies (other than SOMEONE in Obama's family, or Obama himself), no half-truths.
In fact, I would feel alot better if I knew the truth, but Barack Obama is trying to prevent that from happening. WHY?
Actually, you are confused. I did go to the court document website, and they are fighting the lawsuit. One of the main reasons, stated by Obama, is the request for all sorts of documents not related to the request for a copy of his birth certificate.
On a separate note, the plaintiff Phillip J. Berg, is a complete whack job. He's been cited before for wasting the court's time on frivolous lawsuits. So Obama is well within his rights, as would any reasonable person agree, that you don't have to respond to these cases as doing so would give the appearance of credibility to these claims.
Obama's done what's required of him - if you don't like it that he's not responding to some nut job's lawsuit, TS. Until you can prove Obama wrong, keep your conspiracy theories locked up in Area 51.
I think it does satisfy the "letter of the law," though. The certification of live birth meets state dept. requirements to prove citizenship. What citizenship can it possibly prove other than natural-born citizenship?
The certification cannot be issued unless the state agency is satisfied that what it is issuing is correct. A "certification of live birth" does not certify that Obama is alive, it certifies that he was born alive in Hawaii. In Honolulu County, to be precise.
Interestingly, the Hawaii Department of Health operates a website indicating that it is the receiver of ALL vital records, meaning there isn't some mysterious certificate in a hospital somewhere. They issue the certificate because they have it.
Ok, let's see if we can all pay close attention, kids.
A BIRTH CERIFICATE does NOT include the necessary information to PROVE that a person is, in fact, a natural born citizen.
However, BIRTH RECORDS, with witnesses, hospital name, doctor's signatures, height, weight of the child, etc. DOES prove "natural born" status.
These documents are easily attainable, and as a public servant, Obama's are subject to public scrutiny as a Senator/Presidential hopeful. He should not hesitate to produce the documents if/when the court orders them. Incidentally, the DNC should have already verified this information, which apparently they have not.
Since there is conflicting stories from his own family's statements, Mr. Berg is demanding the BIRTH RECORDS. There is legitimate doubt as to where Obama was actually born, and that information needs to be made available.
Now, if you guys are 100% convinced that Obama was born in Hawaii, then please, enlighten me, WHICH HOSPITAL WAS HE BORN IN? WHAT WAS THE DOCTOR'S NAME, AND WHO WAS PRESENT IN THE DELIVERY ROOM? OH, AND PLEASE DIRECT ME TO THE PLACE WHERE YOU OBTAINED THIS INFORMATION!!
If you cannot provide that information to me, then he has not provided adequate proof to any one of us that he was born on US soil.
What are birth certificates based on, besides birth records?
These are all the things you've said already. Can you please explain how this theory makes any sense, as I asked above?