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Wallace, Sammon cite dubious Washington Post article to defend Cheney, enhanced interrogation

August 30, 2009 3:24 pm ET

From the August 30 edition of Fox Broadcasting Co.'s Fox News Sunday:

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From Glenn Greenwald's August 29 Salon.com blog post:

What makes the Post's breathless vindication of torture all the more journalistically corrupt is that the document on which it principally bases these claims -- the just-released 2004 CIA Inspector General Report -- provides no support whatsoever for the view that torture produced valuable intelligence, despite the fact that it was based on the claims of CIA officials themselves.  Ironically, nobody has done a better job this week of demonstrating how true that is than the Post's own Greg Sargent -- who, in post after post this week -- dissected the IG Report to demonstrate that it provides no evidence for Cheney's claims that torture helped obtain valuable intelligence. 

That the released documents provide no support for Cheney's claims was so patently clear that many news articles contained unusually definitive statements reporting that to be so.  The New York Times reported that the documents Cheney claimed proved his case "do not refer to any specific interrogation methods and do not assess their effectiveness."  ABC News notedthat "the visible portions of the heavily redacted reports do not indicate whether such information was obtained as a result of controversial interrogation techniques, such as waterboarding."  TPM's Zachary Roth documented that "nowhere do they suggest that that information was gleaned through torture," while The Washington Independent's Spencer Ackerman detailed that, if anything, the documents prove "that non-abusive techniques actually helped elicit some of the most important information the documents cite in defending the value of the CIA's interrogations."  As Sargent reported, even Bush's loyal Terrorism adviser, Frances Fargos Townsend, admitted that the IG Report provides no basis for what the Post today is ludicrously implying:

It's very difficult to draw a cause and effect, because it's not clear when techniques were applied vs. when that information was received. It's implicit. It seems, when you read the report, that we got the - the - the most critical information after techniques had been applied. But the report doesn't say that.

Yet The Post today publishes a long, breathless story that, in reality, does little more than claim that (a) Khalid Sheik Mohammed was subjected to "the CIA's harshest interrogation methods" (not "torture," of course) and (b) at some point after that, he provided valuable intelligence.  At best, it's nothing more than a statement of obvious chronology, not causation.  Nonetheless -- faithfully employing the same semantic game Cheney used to obfuscate chronology and causation, which Sargent first highlighted --The Post loudly and unmistakably suggests that it was the torture that caused the waterfall of life-saving intelligence, and repeatedly grants anonymity to "intelligence officials" to claim this is so, notwithstanding the complete absence of any evidence for such claims and the ample evidence, as the Post's own Sargent documented, proving this to be untrue.

The debate over whether torture extracted valuable information is, in my view, a total sideshow, both because (a) it inherently begs the question of whether legal interrogation means would have extracted the same information as efficiently if not more so (exactly the same way that claims that warrantless eavesdropping uncovered valuable intelligence begs the question of whether legal eavesdropping would have done so); and (b) torture is a felony and a war crime, and we don't actually have a country (at least we're not suppoesd to) where political leaders are free to commit serious crimes and then claim afterwards that it produced good outcomes.  If we want to be a country that uses torture, then we should repeal our laws which criminalize it, withdraw from treaties which ban it, and announce to the world (not that they don't already know) that, as a country, we believe torture is justifiable and just.  Let's at least be honest about what we are.  Let's explicitly repudiate Ronald Reagan's affirmation that "[n]o exceptional circumstances whatsoever . . . may be invoked as a justification of torture" and that "[e]ach State Party is required [] to prosecute torturers."

But sideshow or not, media outlets ought to exercise at least the most minimal amount of mental thought and skepticism before passing on baseless, anonymous claims that Torture Works and Saves Lives.  It's long been clear that most of our establishment media believes in torture -- that's why there was so little outcry from them when the torture regime was implemented and why they're yet again reacting with horror over the prospect of accountability.  As a result, they are now eager to argue it worked in order to justify not only what Bush officials did, but also their own complicity in it. 

The Post article today is one of the most astoundingly vapid and misleading efforts yet to justify torture -- a true museum exhibit for the transformation of American journalism into little more than mindless amplifiers for those in power.  It simultaneously touts facts as new revelations that have, in fact, long been claimed (that KSM provided valuable intelligence), while deceitfully implying facts that are without any evidence whatsoever (that he did so because he was tortured).  Dick Cheney couldn't have said it better himself.  It's so strange how often that's true of The Liberal Media.

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    • Author by maddymort7289 (August 30, 2009 3:37 pm ET)
      4  
      One Question
      They keep repeating that Kahlid Sheik Mohammed wasn't cooperative with interrogators until the CIA used enhanced interrogation techniques. This is in direct contradiction to the first person to interrogate KSM, namely Ali Soufan. Ali Soufan, an F.B.I. interrogator testified before a Congessional Committee that KSM was cooperative and divulged (some) valuable information BEFORE CIA contractors took over control of interrogations.
      Why does nobody point this out?
      Report Abuse
      • Author by eweston8542983 (August 30, 2009 4:19 pm ET)
        4  
        It doesn't support the meme that sometimes yah gotta torture.
        As I mentioned elsewhere this population in the 16th century were the ones screaming, "Burn the witch!" An avatastic need to hurt the "other" to ease their personal pain a touch. No need to look in a mirror for responsiblity when the "other" is availible. I suppose its better than self flagelation, but thats not an arguement I want any part of.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by starkcr31 (August 31, 2009 10:24 am ET)
          3
        You used the key word: "some" Perhaps the most valuable information was gained by enhanced techniques? Just maybe?
        Report Abuse
        • Author by eweston8542983 (August 31, 2009 10:43 am ET)
          2  
          Extremely doubtful. No professional person involved with interogations has anything good to say about torturing the subject of interogation. It was popular with some law enforcement folks, they had agendas to support however. Today if exposed it is condemed. If it was a good thing this would not be so.
          Report Abuse
        • Author by The_Cat (August 31, 2009 11:36 am ET)
          2  
          No, starkcr31, there was no valuable intel gained from torture. Do you know how I know? Because Cheney would've leaked it, that's why. Because he would have been completely unable to avoid leaking it to make himself and the policies of the administration he served look better.

          That will be the result of this investigation: No useful intelligence was gathered by torture. You can call them enhanced techniques, but what you are really referring to is torture. When it happened to our servicemen, that's what we called it, so we should be honest enough to call it that when we ourselves engage in it, all right?

          Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that there was some valuable information gained from torture. So what? We've broken our own laws, international law, and a number of international treaties. We are now a rogue state that tortures people. Is this America to you?
          Report Abuse
          • Author by starkcr31 (August 31, 2009 1:35 pm ET)
              2
            THAT'S how you know? He can't just "leak" classified information. I work in the intelligence community and you can't just release information whenever you feel like it. You end up in prison that way. Plus, it's not "torture", as much as your liberal friends would like you to believe. Making someone uncomfortable doesn't constitute torture. Also, you claim to know that nothing was gathered from these techniques. I would like to know how you know this. For the sake of argument, it's ok for thousands to die just so we don't "break our own laws"?
            Report Abuse
            • Author by The_Cat (August 31, 2009 1:59 pm ET)
              2  
              He can't just 'leak' classified information? You mean like the names of current CIA operatives (like Valerie Plame), for instance? I think you are quite incorrect about this, starkcr31. And, prison is where he is headed if Holder follows through on his investigation.

              Not torture? "Articles 6 and 7 cover what may and may not be done to a prisoner on capture. If requested, unless too ill to comply, prisoners are bound to give their true name and rank, but they may not be coerced into giving any more information. Prisoners personal possessions, other than arms and horses, may not be taken from them."

              You don't think that waterboarding is torture? Ask John McCain. He says differently, as does ManCow. Since they've both actually experienced it, I'd take their word for it.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by starkcr31 (August 31, 2009 2:42 pm ET)
                  2
                Right, and as I recall someone went to jail for that. Hmm, funny how that works. If laws were broken, why did the Justice Department at the time approve those techniques (they did). This investigation garbage is a political ploy, plain and simple. Waterboarding is torture? I guess we must torture our own soldiers then.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by The_Cat (August 31, 2009 4:47 pm ET)
                  2  
                  If waterboarding and other means of torture are not illegal, why consult the Justice Department at all, starkcr31? Why not just go ahead and do it?

                  When you are arrested on suspicion of being a violent criminal, will it be okay for the police to beat a confession out of you? Should it be used during your trial to prove your guilt? We are ALL liable to this kind of treatment as 'enemy combatants' under rules laid down by Bush/Cheney. I will repeat the question: Is this the America you want to live in?

                  As for thousands dying, six times more people die every year from lack of adequate health coverage than died on that September morning. So, you're behind the public option, right?
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by starkcr31 (August 31, 2009 8:17 pm ET)
                      2
                    Everything has to go through the proper channels, it only makes sense. Waterboarding was not used to extract a confession. They were already known to be guilty. It was used to extract information that was vital to the protection of this country. Your health care analogy is so off-base that I can't really respond. Why do you liberals feel the need to change the subject every chance you get?
                    Report Abuse
    • Author by 1st Republic 14th Star (August 30, 2009 5:47 pm ET)
      5  
      This was SOP for the Bush administration:

      Step 1 -- Anonymously leak some BS story you want to advance to the Washington Post or New York Times.

      Step 2 -- Wait for the story to be published.

      Step 3 -- Cite the published story as proof for the thesis that actually started with YOUR OWN anonymous leak.

      Step 4 -- Castigate the Post and the Times for being part of the alleged liberal media conspiracy that's out to make conservatives look bad.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by wolf kotenberg (August 30, 2009 7:45 pm ET)
        1  
        And they called Reagan the Teflon President. Got that wrong too.
        Report Abuse
    • Author by wolf kotenberg (August 30, 2009 6:48 pm ET)
      1  
      I never thought Cheney was a big e3nough wimp to need help from these two, and his daughter. I guess deep inside Cheney is a wimp for dodging military service when he had a chance at it when young.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by Tom_Shaftoe (August 31, 2009 2:30 am ET)
          1
        How do you know he dogged military service because he was a wimp, it was probably the not wanting to die some stinking soggy hell hole to promote a dubious foreign policy. The being a wimp was just secondary.
        Report Abuse
      • Author by starkcr31 (August 31, 2009 10:25 am ET)
        1 3
        Did Barack Obama serve his country? No? Interesting.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by dr. matt (August 31, 2009 10:55 am ET)
          2  
          He never dodged military service, unlike your "patriotic" heroes Cheney, Drugbaugh, Ted Nugent, O'Racist, Vannity, etc., etc.,

          Report Abuse
        • Author by The_Cat (August 31, 2009 11:49 am ET)
          2  
          President Obama is serving his country right now, as Commander in Chief, starkcr31.

          To me, as far as Cheney is concerned, the salient point is that he is a chickenhawk. Very eager to bomb some other country to rubble, but afraid to actually enlist and train and risk his own worthless neck to do so. Very much like a Monday morning quarterback who is not man enough to take the field and play the game, and with about as much credibility. Care to learn more?
          Report Abuse
          • Author by starkcr31 (August 31, 2009 1:37 pm ET)
              1
            Yeah, and Obama's doing a bang-up job too. Maybe if he had actually served he would know what the F he was doing.
            Report Abuse
            • Author by The_Cat (August 31, 2009 1:48 pm ET)
              1  
              Well, the last President invaded Iraq, and spent more time and money losing there than it took us to win World War II. Our current President is in the process of withdrawing from that particular boondoggle, so he's better than at least one recent CinC when it comes to running the military.
              Report Abuse
              • Author by starkcr31 (August 31, 2009 2:44 pm ET)
                1  
                You are saying we "lost" in Iraq? You are truly a liberal lap-dog. We didn't "lose" in any sense of the word, and in case you have been asleep since 2003 (you must have been), we weren't fighting a country (your WWII reference is irrelevant).
                Report Abuse
                • Author by The_Cat (August 31, 2009 4:55 pm ET)
                  2  
                  Oh, my bad. That's right. Mission Accomplished. I forgot. Say, when were the Victory In Iraq parties? Which day was VI day? I missed all the parades, and am feeling kind of left out.

                  You can't win if there is no definition of victory. Bush/Cheney didn't invade Iraq to win anything. They went in because they wanted to appear strong on national defense. The fact that the opposite was in fact true only grows more apparent with every day that passes. They lied about WMDs, they lied about al Qaeda connections, they lied about Iraq's connection to 9-11. They were in fact conducting military operations against Iraq before Congress even approved it.

                  So, we 'won' in Iraq. Please to define your terms.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by starkcr31 (August 31, 2009 8:22 pm ET)
                      2
                    We brought democracy to a country that was a dictatorship and lowered the level of violence significantly. That's victory in my eyes. Liberals don't want victory. Why? Because Bush started the war and we MUST lose because of it. Your claims of knowledge of military operations must mean you were privy to classified information that the rest of us weren't. Wait, you weren't? Then stop talking.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by The_Cat (August 31, 2009 9:44 pm ET)
                      2  
                      I consider contacting your potential allies and discussing means of justifying an invasion of Iraq, including making the intelligence fit the storyline, to be a crucial part of a military operation such as the one prosecuted against Iraq.

                      President Bush invaded Iraq to eliminate a nuclear threat. Except, Iraq was not a nuclear threat. Not even close, and Bush knew this.

                      President Bush invaded Iraq to eliminate WMDs, including bio and chemo weapons. Except, there were non to eliminate, and Bush knew this.

                      President Bush invaded Iraq to eliminate a refuge of the terrorists that attacked the U.S. on 9-11. Except, there were no links between al Qaeda or the 19 hijackers and Iraq, and Bush knew this.

                      Democracy? Bush didn't even want democracy in THIS country in 2000. The level of violence has gone up and down during our tenure in Iraq, with no real end in sight. The best thing we can do is leave. The best thing we can hope to accomplish is no more dead American troops. al Qaeda didn't show up there until Bush gave them American troops to shoot at.

                      Hey, if Bush was so hot to go after a dictator, why not Kim Jong-Il? He's got a much worse record than Saddam Hussein had.
                      Report Abuse
    • Author by kydem09 (August 31, 2009 11:04 am ET)
        1
      Hmmmm... firing up my power drill to "torture" some bad guys today, that is right after I release a swarm of caterpillars to scare the bejesus out of 'em.
      Report Abuse
      • Author by foghornleghorn (August 31, 2009 4:09 pm ET)
        2  
        Torture is illegal. Period.

        Apologists for torture are un-American traitors. Period.
        Report Abuse
        • Author by starkcr31 (August 31, 2009 4:17 pm ET)
            2
          You're right. We should instead let thousands die because it's wrong to make the terrorists uncomfortable in order to gather intelligence that, I'm guess, they won't just willingly give over. That's patriotic.
          Report Abuse
          • Author by The_Cat (August 31, 2009 4:52 pm ET)
            2  
            You're ignoring the same intelligence that Bush ignored, starkcr31. 9-11 was preventable, based on actual intelligence work that owed nothing to illegal practices like torture. Funny how Bush/Cheney were only concerned with keeping America safe after we had been attacked.

            So, you're arguing that because Bush failed, innocent people must be tortured to prevent him from failing again? Why not just impeach the failure and have done with it? Why torture at all? Just 'cause it's fun to do?
            Report Abuse
            • Author by starkcr31 (August 31, 2009 8:24 pm ET)
                2
              Since you are speaking based on "intelligence" that has been presented by the likes of Michael Moore, your statement can be dismissed outright. Your second paragraph is just baffling in it's stupidity.

              Report Abuse
              • Author by The_Cat (August 31, 2009 9:49 pm ET)
                2  
                You are aware that the President is given a daily intelligence briefing, yes? And that he got one in August of 2001, warning of al Qaeda attacks against the U.S., yes?

                This doesn't come from Michael Moore, by the way. Even if it did come from Michael Moore, that doesn't automatically make it wrong. You've committed an ad hominem argument there, starkcr31.

                What is baffling about my second paragraph? My stance against torture? My confusion over why you think torturing innocent people in any way helped prevent future attack? I'm willing to clear any of these up for you.
                Report Abuse
                • Author by kydem09 (September 01, 2009 8:43 am ET)
                     
                  Innocent people????? Name an innocent person the US tortured.
                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by The_Cat (September 01, 2009 2:12 pm ET)
                       
                    Well, considering you are innocent under U.S. law until proven guilty, and considering that the detainees were not allowed lawyers, let alone trials, before this torture program got underway, I'm going to go with... All of them. Got it? No number of question marks will change your opinion into a fact.

                    Show me a detainee who was provided with legal counsel, given a fair trial, convicted, and then tortured. You know what you will have proved? That the United States tortures. Not whether or not it was effective. Not whether or not it was for a greater good. Just that we, thanks to Bush/Cheney, are now a nation known around the world for torturing people. Just like Iraq. Just like North Korea. Just like China. Just like the former Soviet Union.

                    Because whether or not it is effective just doesn't matter, kydem09. Not one whit. If we abandon all of our principles, then we are no longer the United States of America. Why not bring back slavery? Why not bring back segregation? Why not turn back the clock on voting, so that only wealthy white land owning males are allowed to vote? Why stop with torture? There are plenty of arguments supporting these other ideas. Slavery in particular would really help us compete with worker wages in China. You want the U.S. to be competitive, don't you?

                    It comes down to one simple idea: Torture is wrong. Always. Regardless of situation. Wrong. Actually, illegal and wrong. A war crime and wrong. Plus, it doesn't work. So, you're really just maiming people for fun.

                    As soon as the most desperate, despicable, monstrous, murderous terrorist is tortured, he becomes a victim of torture, and the one torturing him (and the one giving the orders to the torturer) become the criminals.
                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by kydem09 (September 01, 2009 2:17 pm ET)
                         
                      Hmmm... last I checked the US Constitution was for citizens of the United States. These people aren't citizens and, in my opinion, aren't afforded the same rights under the Constitution. I do object to them being held for so long without a trial, but to say they are entitled to the same rights under the Constitution as I am is ridiculous!

                      As for your torture argument, it depends on your definition of torture.
                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by The_Cat (September 01, 2009 3:12 pm ET)
                           
                        I see. So, you've decided to change 'All men are created equal' to 'All men with the right paperwork are created equal'. Interesting. Do you see any potential problems with this point of view? Aside from the fact that it is unsupported by law, of course?

                        Torture has been defined clearly in U.S. federal law, international law, and international treaty. If you want to debate the accuracy of these definitions, you may, of course, but as for what happened under the last administration, there are indeed statutes on the books defining what they engaged in as criminal behavior.
                        Report Abuse
        • Author by kydem09 (August 31, 2009 4:24 pm ET)
            2
          Depends on what you consider torture. If people really think the things I listed above are torture, they need to meet my brothers!
          Report Abuse
          • Author by The_Cat (September 01, 2009 2:14 pm ET)
               
            U.S. law and international law already spell out what torture is, kydem09. We've already agreed on definitions.
            Report Abuse

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