Wallace, Sammon cite dubious Washington Post article to defend Cheney, enhanced interrogation
From the August 30 edition of Fox Broadcasting Co.'s Fox News Sunday:
From Glenn Greenwald's August 29 Salon.com blog post:
What makes the Post's breathless vindication of torture all the more journalistically corrupt is that the document on which it principally bases these claims -- the just-released 2004 CIA Inspector General Report -- provides no support whatsoever for the view that torture produced valuable intelligence, despite the fact that it was based on the claims of CIA officials themselves. Ironically, nobody has done a better job this week of demonstrating how true that is than the Post's own Greg Sargent -- who, in post after post this week -- dissected the IG Report to demonstrate that it provides no evidence for Cheney's claims that torture helped obtain valuable intelligence.
That the released documents provide no support for Cheney's claims was so patently clear that many news articles contained unusually definitive statements reporting that to be so. The New York Times reported that the documents Cheney claimed proved his case "do not refer to any specific interrogation methods and do not assess their effectiveness." ABC News notedthat "the visible portions of the heavily redacted reports do not indicate whether such information was obtained as a result of controversial interrogation techniques, such as waterboarding." TPM's Zachary Roth documented that "nowhere do they suggest that that information was gleaned through torture," while The Washington Independent's Spencer Ackerman detailed that, if anything, the documents prove "that non-abusive techniques actually helped elicit some of the most important information the documents cite in defending the value of the CIA's interrogations." As Sargent reported, even Bush's loyal Terrorism adviser, Frances Fargos Townsend, admitted that the IG Report provides no basis for what the Post today is ludicrously implying:
It's very difficult to draw a cause and effect, because it's not clear when techniques were applied vs. when that information was received. It's implicit. It seems, when you read the report, that we got the - the - the most critical information after techniques had been applied. But the report doesn't say that.
Yet The Post today publishes a long, breathless story that, in reality, does little more than claim that (a) Khalid Sheik Mohammed was subjected to "the CIA's harshest interrogation methods" (not "torture," of course) and (b) at some point after that, he provided valuable intelligence. At best, it's nothing more than a statement of obvious chronology, not causation. Nonetheless -- faithfully employing the same semantic game Cheney used to obfuscate chronology and causation, which Sargent first highlighted --The Post loudly and unmistakably suggests that it was the torture that caused the waterfall of life-saving intelligence, and repeatedly grants anonymity to "intelligence officials" to claim this is so, notwithstanding the complete absence of any evidence for such claims and the ample evidence, as the Post's own Sargent documented, proving this to be untrue.
The debate over whether torture extracted valuable information is, in my view, a total sideshow, both because (a) it inherently begs the question of whether legal interrogation means would have extracted the same information as efficiently if not more so (exactly the same way that claims that warrantless eavesdropping uncovered valuable intelligence begs the question of whether legal eavesdropping would have done so); and (b) torture is a felony and a war crime, and we don't actually have a country (at least we're not suppoesd to) where political leaders are free to commit serious crimes and then claim afterwards that it produced good outcomes. If we want to be a country that uses torture, then we should repeal our laws which criminalize it, withdraw from treaties which ban it, and announce to the world (not that they don't already know) that, as a country, we believe torture is justifiable and just. Let's at least be honest about what we are. Let's explicitly repudiate Ronald Reagan's affirmation that "[n]o exceptional circumstances whatsoever . . . may be invoked as a justification of torture" and that "[e]ach State Party is required [] to prosecute torturers."
But sideshow or not, media outlets ought to exercise at least the most minimal amount of mental thought and skepticism before passing on baseless, anonymous claims that Torture Works and Saves Lives. It's long been clear that most of our establishment media believes in torture -- that's why there was so little outcry from them when the torture regime was implemented and why they're yet again reacting with horror over the prospect of accountability. As a result, they are now eager to argue it worked in order to justify not only what Bush officials did, but also their own complicity in it.
The Post article today is one of the most astoundingly vapid and misleading efforts yet to justify torture -- a true museum exhibit for the transformation of American journalism into little more than mindless amplifiers for those in power. It simultaneously touts facts as new revelations that have, in fact, long been claimed (that KSM provided valuable intelligence), while deceitfully implying facts that are without any evidence whatsoever (that he did so because he was tortured). Dick Cheney couldn't have said it better himself. It's so strange how often that's true of The Liberal Media.











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They keep repeating that Kahlid Sheik Mohammed wasn't cooperative with interrogators until the CIA used enhanced interrogation techniques. This is in direct contradiction to the first person to interrogate KSM, namely Ali Soufan. Ali Soufan, an F.B.I. interrogator testified before a Congessional Committee that KSM was cooperative and divulged (some) valuable information BEFORE CIA contractors took over control of interrogations.
Why does nobody point this out?
As I mentioned elsewhere this population in the 16th century were the ones screaming, "Burn the witch!" An avatastic need to hurt the "other" to ease their personal pain a touch. No need to look in a mirror for responsiblity when the "other" is availible. I suppose its better than self flagelation, but thats not an arguement I want any part of.
That will be the result of this investigation: No useful intelligence was gathered by torture. You can call them enhanced techniques, but what you are really referring to is torture. When it happened to our servicemen, that's what we called it, so we should be honest enough to call it that when we ourselves engage in it, all right?
Let's say, just for the sake of argument, that there was some valuable information gained from torture. So what? We've broken our own laws, international law, and a number of international treaties. We are now a rogue state that tortures people. Is this America to you?
Not torture? "Articles 6 and 7 cover what may and may not be done to a prisoner on capture. If requested, unless too ill to comply, prisoners are bound to give their true name and rank, but they may not be coerced into giving any more information. Prisoners personal possessions, other than arms and horses, may not be taken from them."
You don't think that waterboarding is torture? Ask John McCain. He says differently, as does ManCow. Since they've both actually experienced it, I'd take their word for it.
When you are arrested on suspicion of being a violent criminal, will it be okay for the police to beat a confession out of you? Should it be used during your trial to prove your guilt? We are ALL liable to this kind of treatment as 'enemy combatants' under rules laid down by Bush/Cheney. I will repeat the question: Is this the America you want to live in?
As for thousands dying, six times more people die every year from lack of adequate health coverage than died on that September morning. So, you're behind the public option, right?
Step 1 -- Anonymously leak some BS story you want to advance to the Washington Post or New York Times.
Step 2 -- Wait for the story to be published.
Step 3 -- Cite the published story as proof for the thesis that actually started with YOUR OWN anonymous leak.
Step 4 -- Castigate the Post and the Times for being part of the alleged liberal media conspiracy that's out to make conservatives look bad.
To me, as far as Cheney is concerned, the salient point is that he is a chickenhawk. Very eager to bomb some other country to rubble, but afraid to actually enlist and train and risk his own worthless neck to do so. Very much like a Monday morning quarterback who is not man enough to take the field and play the game, and with about as much credibility. Care to learn more?
You can't win if there is no definition of victory. Bush/Cheney didn't invade Iraq to win anything. They went in because they wanted to appear strong on national defense. The fact that the opposite was in fact true only grows more apparent with every day that passes. They lied about WMDs, they lied about al Qaeda connections, they lied about Iraq's connection to 9-11. They were in fact conducting military operations against Iraq before Congress even approved it.
So, we 'won' in Iraq. Please to define your terms.
President Bush invaded Iraq to eliminate a nuclear threat. Except, Iraq was not a nuclear threat. Not even close, and Bush knew this.
President Bush invaded Iraq to eliminate WMDs, including bio and chemo weapons. Except, there were non to eliminate, and Bush knew this.
President Bush invaded Iraq to eliminate a refuge of the terrorists that attacked the U.S. on 9-11. Except, there were no links between al Qaeda or the 19 hijackers and Iraq, and Bush knew this.
Democracy? Bush didn't even want democracy in THIS country in 2000. The level of violence has gone up and down during our tenure in Iraq, with no real end in sight. The best thing we can do is leave. The best thing we can hope to accomplish is no more dead American troops. al Qaeda didn't show up there until Bush gave them American troops to shoot at.
Hey, if Bush was so hot to go after a dictator, why not Kim Jong-Il? He's got a much worse record than Saddam Hussein had.
Apologists for torture are un-American traitors. Period.
So, you're arguing that because Bush failed, innocent people must be tortured to prevent him from failing again? Why not just impeach the failure and have done with it? Why torture at all? Just 'cause it's fun to do?
This doesn't come from Michael Moore, by the way. Even if it did come from Michael Moore, that doesn't automatically make it wrong. You've committed an ad hominem argument there, starkcr31.
What is baffling about my second paragraph? My stance against torture? My confusion over why you think torturing innocent people in any way helped prevent future attack? I'm willing to clear any of these up for you.
Show me a detainee who was provided with legal counsel, given a fair trial, convicted, and then tortured. You know what you will have proved? That the United States tortures. Not whether or not it was effective. Not whether or not it was for a greater good. Just that we, thanks to Bush/Cheney, are now a nation known around the world for torturing people. Just like Iraq. Just like North Korea. Just like China. Just like the former Soviet Union.
Because whether or not it is effective just doesn't matter, kydem09. Not one whit. If we abandon all of our principles, then we are no longer the United States of America. Why not bring back slavery? Why not bring back segregation? Why not turn back the clock on voting, so that only wealthy white land owning males are allowed to vote? Why stop with torture? There are plenty of arguments supporting these other ideas. Slavery in particular would really help us compete with worker wages in China. You want the U.S. to be competitive, don't you?
It comes down to one simple idea: Torture is wrong. Always. Regardless of situation. Wrong. Actually, illegal and wrong. A war crime and wrong. Plus, it doesn't work. So, you're really just maiming people for fun.
As soon as the most desperate, despicable, monstrous, murderous terrorist is tortured, he becomes a victim of torture, and the one torturing him (and the one giving the orders to the torturer) become the criminals.
As for your torture argument, it depends on your definition of torture.
Torture has been defined clearly in U.S. federal law, international law, and international treaty. If you want to debate the accuracy of these definitions, you may, of course, but as for what happened under the last administration, there are indeed statutes on the books defining what they engaged in as criminal behavior.