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Stephanopoulos on the "special challenge" of Muslims in the military: "This is not the first case we've seen of fratricide by someone with a Muslim background in the military"

November 08, 2009 11:42 am ET

From the November 8 edition of ABC News' This Week with George Stephanopoulos:

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    • Author by jjamele2880 (November 08, 2009 11:51 am ET)
      14  
      And there's never, EVER been a case of Protestants killing Protestants in the army, or Catholics killing Catholics, etc. etc. etc.

      All those cases of fragging during the Vietnam War? All Muslims, obviously.

      Isn't it time for Stephanopoulos to join Dobbs and Quinn and Hannity and all the rest in the building of a new Know-Nothing party already? This is getting sick.
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      • Author by achrispage6992 (November 08, 2009 2:46 pm ET)
          10
        "This is not the first case we've seen of fratricide by someone with a Muslim background in the military"

        What is erroneous about that satement? The "special challenge" is obvious here. Did that muslim major kill those young men because he didn't like their haircuts? Seriously, what do you think his motive was?
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        • Author by rwmacdonald2091 (November 08, 2009 4:20 pm ET)
          13  
          Seriously, what do you think his motive was?

          Seriously I don't know what his motive was. It may have been his crazy extreme Islamic beliefs, it could have been he was scared to go to the middle east, maybe he was plain mentally deranged.

          There was Christain man in the military that killed 5 of his fellow army people. (Camp Liberty, May 2009). I don't know why he did it either. It could have been his crazy christian beliefs, or scared of what might happen in Iraq, or just plain mentally deranged.

          The point most posters are trying to make here, is we as a society should not condemn a group, for something an individual does. It is just as stupid to blame all Muslims for this guys heinous deed, as it would be to blame all Christians for the guys heinous deed at Camp Liberty last May.

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        • Author by jjamele2880 (November 08, 2009 7:53 pm ET)
          6  
          I don't know what his motive was, any more than you do. Difference is, you just don't CARE what his motive was. He's a Muslim, therefore he killed his fellow soldiers because his religion "ordered" him to do it, as far as you are concerned.

          Now, if his religion had been something other than Muslim, and if he had yelled "God is Great" in English before shooting, an investigation would be called for. But this is clear as day to you, isn't it?
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          • Author by Publius39 (November 08, 2009 11:06 pm ET)
            1  
            I wonder what the conservative media would have reported if the shooter yelled John 3:16 or something like that. He would have been labeled as another crazy religious kook, and that's all you would have heard about the story after that.
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      • Author by Civic Racecar (November 08, 2009 7:21 pm ET)
        5  
        I think the first part of his question was valid. There does exist a "special challenge" with having Muslims in the military at this point in time. We cannot ignore the fact that we are in conflict with Muslim extremists (terrorists). This tends to color people's perceptions toward other Muslims. As rwmacdonald2091 points out, "we as a society should not condemn a group, for something an individual does." However, people do not ignore their biases or cut off their emotions, even if they sign a paper to enlist in the military. There will always be some dumb individual that will insult or degrade others based on their race, gender, or beliefs. These individuals, civilian or military, will always make it hard for Muslims to serve their country like other non-Muslim individuals. This Ft. Hood incident makes that more than apparent.

        As for Stephanopoulos' second part of the question, this was a stupid statement. I don't know if he intend it to come out that way or if the question was just poorly worded. I must say though, that Gen. Casey handled that question very well, even if it was loaded question.
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      • Author by quantpro (November 09, 2009 7:37 am ET)
           
        Wrong, You mean there has never been cases of Protestants or Catholic soldiers targeting Muslim soldiers. Now that makes more sense. It's not terrorism it's the religious obligation of Jihad!
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    • Author by rwmacdonald2091 (November 08, 2009 12:52 pm ET)
      10  
      Anybody want to remember Camp Liberty , May 2009. I went to try and find out what religion Sgt. John M. Russell, who was charged, practiced. Funny thing I couldn't find out. I'm guessing he is some kind of Christian.

      Guess those dog gone Christians need special attention too.
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    • Author by The_Cat (November 08, 2009 1:08 pm ET)
      11  
      Sadly, it was friendly fire the killed Pat Tillman. While no investigation has determined the gender, race, or religion of those responsible, we do know it was 'conservative' and 'Christian' and 'caucasion' people who twisted his death into a major political campaign to stump for a war of opportunity, Mr. Stephanopoulos. So, perhaps muslims aren't really the biggest challenge our armed forces face.
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    • Author by wolf kotenberg (November 08, 2009 1:49 pm ET)
      5 2
      Fratricide (from the Latin word frater, meaning: "brother" and cide meaning to kill) is the act of a person killing his or her brother.
      strictly speaking you have to be a real brother or sister. Brothers in Arms is just a movie. A better word would be "murder ".
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      • Author by achrispage6992 (November 08, 2009 2:51 pm ET)
        2 7
        You may think of the term 'brothers in arms' as just a movie, but the reality is that there is relatively few bonds on this earth as endearing as the bond between service members who have gone through combat together. For you to minimize that by playing semantics is sad.
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        • Author by wolf kotenberg (November 08, 2009 3:15 pm ET)
          5  
          using the word fraticide to describe this murder is incorrect use by someone who has reached the pinnacle of news reporting. I would expect someone with Stephanoupolos creds to use the word correctly. It was murder with no real intended only military victims, anybody standing there was a target. Nobody gets killed in a movie from combat.
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        • Author by jjamele2880 (November 08, 2009 3:52 pm ET)
          5  
          Just because all the GI Joes in your collection look alike doesn't mean they are related, you know. You sound like another of the many non-serving trolls who come here to shout Semper Fi while waving your Glenn Beck-autographed American flags from time to time.
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          • Author by juliajayne1 (November 08, 2009 6:16 pm ET)
            6  
            I believe that Crispy did serve if MY memory serves.

            But that aside, I do think the major point most are trying to make is that there are numerous examples of this type of situation, above and beyond religion or ethnicity.

            Anybody remember the guy in Killeen (same town as Ft. Hood) running his vehcile into a Luby's cafeteria and gunning down 23 people? Maybe someone mentioned it before. If so, excuse me, I haven't kept up here as of late.

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            • Author by snoopy (November 08, 2009 7:31 pm ET)
              5  
              Here, JJ, I believe this list is in order...

              Between 1969 and 1971, the Army reported 600 fragging incidents that killed 82 Americans and injured 651, according to the Associated Press. In 1971 alone, there were 1.8 fraggings for every 1,000 American soldiers serving in Vietnam, not including gun and knife assaults.

              Such incidents have dropped dramatically. But in recent years there have been several incidents in the United States and Iraq. As tallied by NBC News and the Associated Press, they include:

              • May 11, 2009: Five soldiers shot dead at Camp Liberty in Baghdad by Sgt. John Russell.

              • Sept. 8, 2008: Spc. Jody Michael Wirawan shoots himself to death after killing 1st Lt. Robert Bartlett Fletcher at Fort Hood.

              • Feb. 25, 2008: Dustin Thorson, an Air Force technical sergeant, fatally shoots his son and daughter at home on Tinker Air Base in Oklahoma in domestic dispute with ex-wife. He had been diagnosed with post-traumatic stress disorder after returning from Iraq.

              • June 7 2005: Two National Guard officers are killed by a grenade at headquarters in Tikrit. Staff Sgt. Alberto Martinez is later acquitted of murder in a court-martial.

              • March 23, 2003: Army Sgt. Hasan Akbar tosses grenades into three tents and then fires a rifle at Camp Pennsylvania in Kuwait, killing one and injuring 14. Akbar later receives death sentence.

              • Oct. 27, 1995: Sgt. William Kreutzer goes on shooting spree at Fort Bragg, killing one and injuring 18 in a sniper attack during formation. He is serving a life sentence after a death sentence was overturned.



              This story talks about lowering the recruiting bar to allow cat 4's in. Thanks, george, for that one...

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              • Author by mary59 (November 08, 2009 7:42 pm ET)
                4  
                Now we need to carefully monitor all the Muslims/atheists/Jews/Christians/Hindus/taoists/wiccans/drunks/skunks/punks in the military to avoid any future incidents....
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              • Author by juliajayne1 (November 08, 2009 7:45 pm ET)
                4  
                Hey Snoop, thanks. How goes it in Ohio? And did you get to see the Texas - OU game a few weekends ago?
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                • Author by snoopy (November 09, 2009 8:29 am ET)
                  2  
                  Hi JJ!

                  Ohio is doing OK, we hit our 1st production marks last week which allowed us to hire two more folks. Now I'm getting ready to expand production again. I'm pretty tired all the time with these 7 day weeks of 12 hour days, but the pay is worth it. Couldn't have come at a better time too, I was down to my last thousand in the bank. So ha! In spite of their best efforts at destroying the middle class, I shake my fist and say ha! Missed me!

                  Saw the game too. I was the only aggie there, they still let me join them for a beer! ;)
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                  • Author by juliajayne1 (November 09, 2009 9:09 pm ET)
                       
                    Cheers, Aggie fan! Good to hear from you, doggy! Thanks for the update. We're all thinking about you. Good to see you're still posting now and again ;-)
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          • Author by juliajayne1 (November 08, 2009 7:50 pm ET)
            3 2
            I also don't think Crispy is the type to watch Glenn Beck. He's usually a thoughtful poster. I sometimes don't agree with him, like today. But he's cool for the most part imo.
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            • Author by jjamele2880 (November 08, 2009 8:12 pm ET)
              5 1
              When he's not assuming that because the shooter was a Muslim, it means that his religion was the reason for the shooting, he's cool? That's nice to know. Can't imagine why it would change my opinion of him though.

              Might as well tell me that when he's not beating his wife, he's actually a pretty nice husband.
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              • Author by juliajayne1 (November 08, 2009 11:29 pm ET)
                5  
                Please reread my post. Sheesh. I did say I didn't agree with him today. You don't serve anybody by going overboard. And if you've ever read his posts in the past, you'd know he isn't some Glenn Beck freakazoid.
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    • Author by princeofwheels (November 08, 2009 1:53 pm ET)
      7  
      If we are going to grill all the Muslims in the Armed Services, we should start with those that have already died during these wars. Oh, we can't because they gave up their lives for this country. Why besmirch their memory.
      While we are at it, maybe Dobbs and the boys want to start grilling the Hispanic named members to find out if they want Mexico to take back America. Maybe we should go after those that have died, a lot of Hispanic names are shown, and see if they deserve to be buried in Arlington.
      And while these nutz are on their hunt, we can make rules that only Christians named personnel are permitted in the Armed Forces.
      For example, Dobbs, Limbaugh, Hannity, Cheney.

      This Rightwing chatter about vetting these patriotic men and women prove beyond any shadow of a doubt that these cretins hate Americans while saying they love America.

      Damn them all to hell.
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      • Author by achrispage6992 (November 08, 2009 2:54 pm ET)
          11
        Like it or not, having a devout Muslim serving in the United States Armed Forces, at this point in our history, is in fact something that deserves attention. Let's assume the service takes no precautionary steps and something like this happens again, what do you tell the parents of the next young men who end up getting it?
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        • Author by bintx (November 08, 2009 4:30 pm ET)
          7  
          No, it isn't. He's simply a murderer.
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        • Author by princeofwheels (November 08, 2009 5:58 pm ET)
          6  
          Now you have narrowed it to devout Muslims..what a nosensical statement. Devout Muslims would not kill like this. If you want to narrow it down to radical Muslim extremists, you may have a case. Let me know when you figure out the difference?

          How about those devout Christians? Should they get attention or do you believe a devout Christian is better than a devout Muslim?

          To be fair, I think you should retract the "devout" to try to make your arguement.
          See bintx below.
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        • Author by aBeck in 10-O-C (November 08, 2009 7:45 pm ET)
          5  
          Let's assume the service takes no precautionary steps and something like this happens again, what do you tell the parents of the next young men who end up getting it?


          Oct. 27, 1995: Sgt. William Kreutzer went on shooting spree at Fort Bragg, killing one and injuring 18 in a sniper attack during formation.

          That is actually the closest example to the Ft. Hood attack. It did not involve religion, and unlike "fragging" it was not merely an attack on a commanding or superior officer. It was attempted mass murder of soldiers. Kreutzer was mentally disturbed and warning signs of his meltdown were overlooked.

          As you suggest, let's assume no precautionary steps were taken then to prevent future mass attacks. Or let's assume that precautionary steps were taken. Either way, where does that leave us today?

          And now that it has happened again, yes, what do you tell the parents of the victims?

          You seem hung up on the Muslim factor to the exclusion of all other possible factors that might motivate a soldier who resorts to mass murder. And you are arguing with anyone who proposes a comprehensive inquiry into the origins and motives in this case.

          Is it not possible that it is too early to be drawing all sorts of conclusions: to be "armchair quarterbacking" a game that's barely started?

          Like it or not, having a devout Muslim serving in the United States Armed Forces, at this point in our history, is in fact something that deserves attention.

          It is certainly getting attention now. Some people are now concerned with immediate and subsequent repercussions of that attention. It remains to be seen how the country and the military proceed from this point on.



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        • Author by pearlene_scott1602 (November 09, 2009 8:43 pm ET)
          3  
          Let's assume the service takes no precautionary steps and something like this happens again, what do you tell the parents of the next young men who end up getting it?

          The same thing, police officers and doctors tell parents, wives and children each and every second of the day...I'm sorry for your loss.

          The killings at Ft. Hood were a tragedy, but it should not be used as a reason to treat thousands of honorable, law abiding, American loving Muslims, serving in the U.S. military, as if they've committed a crime, simply because they're Muslim.



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    • Author by aBeck in 10-O-C (November 08, 2009 2:39 pm ET)
      6  
      Mar 31,2003--FORT CAMPBELL, Ky.--When Ihsan Bagby,a professor of Islamic Studies at the University of Kentucky who advised Islamic soldiers stationed here, heard that a Muslim soldier, Asan Akbar, then stationed in Kuwait, was accused of rolling grenades and spraying gunfire into his superiors' tents, killing two and wounding 14, he was more saddened than shocked.

      Bagby knew what it took to practice the Islamic faith in the US Army. With their prayer regimen, special diet, and strictures against alcohol, Muslim soldiers can become isolated in an institution that relies on conformity to forge tight bonds. That was true before Sept. 11, 2001, and before the US went to war with an Arab nation.


      Since the Vietnam War, Akbar was the first U.S. soldier to be charged with the murder of another soldier during wartime.

      When the investigation of the Ft. Hood tragedy is concluded all knowable factors in Major Hasan's crime will be revealed. Current evidence indicates disturbing similarities to motivating factors uncovered in the Akbar case.

      The military will have to take serious steps to resolve persistant problems such as that highlighted in the article I just quoted. Given recent reports of almost insurmountable Christian Fundalmentalist influence in the its command structure, there should be serious concern for the military's commitment to assimilate all religions into their ranks.

      The morale of all combat troops may well depend upon enforcing religious tolerance as a cornerstone of training and deployment.
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      • Author by achrispage6992 (November 08, 2009 3:02 pm ET)
        1 6
        "Since the Vietnam War, Akbar was the first U.S. soldier to be charged with the murder of another soldier during wartime."

        Sounds good until you consider that we have only been at war for around 3 months in total since the Vietnam War.

        The military needs to take steps that this doesn't happen again. That is correct. Your point is unbelievable. You seem to be attempting to blame this tragedy on everything and everybody but the guy who done it. His actions are in no way justifiable. Period. Just because he was ridiculed by others for his religion does not give him the right to kill 12 people.
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        • Author by aBeck in 10-O-C (November 08, 2009 3:54 pm ET)
          6  
          You seem to be attempting to blame this tragedy on everything and everybody but the guy who done it. His actions are in no way justifiable. Period


          No, not my intention at all. There is no justification for murder, period. I am only addressing one probable shortcoming in the system that could 1)contribute to another murder or 2)make service for non-Christians more difficult than it is for anyone else.

          I think promoting religious tolerance is a good thing in every situation. Would you agree with that?
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    • Author by Kid Funkadelic (November 08, 2009 2:44 pm ET)
      2  
      It might be something to this, Timothy McVeigh was a Irish-Catholic American.Oreilly and Klannity are Irish-Catholics and want America attacked again. Why don't we send them to Git-Mo.
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    • Author by jmariemo (November 08, 2009 3:50 pm ET)
      7  
      Special attention needs to be paid to the overwhelming bigotry residing in the military to be perfectly honest.
      I live in a predominantly military town, and from experience I have no respect for soldiers who spew hateful statements like, "We need to kill all the Muslims." Then, drunkingly continue on to call a man in the corner a 'faggot'. Then, inappropriately grab my friend's bottom before running out into the street and starting a fight with a group of men passing by.
      I can only imagine how unbearable and awful the treatment of Muslims is in the army.
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      • Author by DellDolly (November 08, 2009 11:09 pm ET)
        2  
        It's behavior similar to this in elementary schools that finally have made schools teach about how detrimental bullies are. Bigots are bullies. People who snap after being harassed by bullies are responsible for their behavior, but the bullies' behavior is a factor too.
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    • Author by bintx (November 08, 2009 4:28 pm ET)
      6  
      This isn't the first time we've seen fratricide in the military, period. There was a fragging in Ft. Hood just a few years ago which had NOTHING to do with either party being Muslim.
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    • Author by Sharpe (November 08, 2009 4:52 pm ET)
      3  
      Im sure many more muslims would flock to the military if we ostracized all of them because of this...???
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    • Author by Boxer1979 (November 08, 2009 6:27 pm ET)
      6  
      Stephanopoulos on the "special challenge" of Muslims in the military: "This is not the first case we've seen of fratricide by someone with a Muslim background in the military"

      Spreading fear and stereotype. Great George! *Facepalm*
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