Media figures, GOP strategists defend Coulter's attacks on 9-11 widows
In the uproar resulting from inflammatory statements made by Ann Coulter in her new book -- and highlighted by NBC's Matt Lauer in an interview with Coulter on Today -- numerous media figures and Republican strategists have defended Coulter and her remarks. Coulter's comment that has perhaps drawn the most attention is an attack on the widows of 9-11 victims, read by Lauer: "These broads are millionaires, lionized on TV and in articles about them, reveling in their status as celebrities and stalked by grief-arazzis. I've never seen people enjoying their husbands' deaths so much."
In the uproar resulting from inflammatory statements made by right-wing pundit Ann Coulter  in her new book -- and highlighted  by NBC's Matt Lauer in an interview with Coulter on the Today show -- numerous media figures and Republican strategists have defended Coulter and her remarks. Coulter's comment that has perhaps drawn the most attention is an attack on the widows of 9-11 victims, appearing on Page 103 of Godless: The Church of Liberalism  (Crown Forum), and read by Lauer: "These broads are millionaires, lionized on TV and in articles about them, reveling in their status as celebrities and stalked by grief-arazzis. I've never seen people enjoying their husbands' deaths so much."
Coulter's defenders have offered rationalizations for that and other smears. A Media Matters for America review of June 7 and 8 media coverage revealed the following examples:
Fox News' Sandy Rios
On the June 7 edition of Fox News' The O'Reilly Factor, Fox News contributor Sandy Rios stated that Coulter's "words are laser-focused on the truth," comparing them to "Holocaust pictures" that "we have to see ... to understand what happened." Rios also compared Coulter's words to a "clarion wake-up call," and "cold water" that -- in O'Reilly's words -- "wakes you up." Rios further praised Coulter's "gift of words and imagery," calling her "unique" and "frank" and adding that "she plays an important role."
Rios echoed Coulter's attacks on 9-11 widows, claiming incomprehensibly that just because they "lost their husbands in an accidental bombing [emphasis added]" that "does not give them license to then criticize the commander in chief." Rios also stated that "we're living in a time where a lot of people enjoy the death of their loved ones" and that "people are making a lot of money off the death of their loved ones," calling this "a culture that probably needs to be exposed."
Republican strategist Jack Burkman
On the June 7 edition of MSNBC's Scarborough Country, Republican strategist Jack Burkman defended Coulter's statements "[a]ll the way," asserting that Coulter "understates the point" and is "telling the truth." Burkman added that the 9-11 widows -- whom he compared to anti-war protestor Cindy Sheehan -- "exploited commercially" the deaths of their loved ones, that they had "breathlessly ... stepped just into the fame thing," and that "before the bodies are cold, they're out selling and trying to make money." He further argued that Osama bin Laden is "shocked" and "amazed" because of "what these women have done and others have done with 9-11, they have commercialized him." Burkman later added that "because of this PC thing," the 9-11 widows "get away with it."
Fox News' Sean Hannity
During a fawning interview on the June 7 edition of Fox News' Hannity & Colmes, host Sean Hannity  asked Coulter a series of leading questions -- paraphrasing her attacks on the 9-11 widows -- and praised her for "accept[ing] a challenge" to debate the 9-11 widows "on the issues" on a future edition of the program. Hannity's leading questions and comments to Coulter included:
- "You're saying that liberalism cannot be sold by the people in office, and you feel people like Cindy Sheehan ... Jack Murtha, who was a former Marine... [t]he Jersey Girls ... are being used by the left to make points that they [liberals] cannot make on their own. Isn't that the point of the chapter?"
- "You're saying they've entered the political arena. Now, I've gone and I've been looking at some of the comments, for example, of the Jersey Women in particular. ... [T]hey have been harsh about [Secretary of State] Condi Rice, about [White House senior adviser] Karl Rove ... about President Bush, very outspoken. They were on the campaign trail with [Sen.] John Edwards [D-NC] and with [Sen.] John Kerry [D-MA]. ... So basically what you're saying is, if they're going to enter the political arena separate from the loss of their husbands, that now this is a dialogue. If they call the president a liar, this is now a dialogue. And you're saying most people won't dare get engaged with them because of what they've been through."
- "[T]he point here is, is that they [the 9-11 widows] have taken a strong, a harsh line politically against the president, that they name-call on their side, and that now it's time to challenge them, based on what these issues are, because they've gotten a pass because of their positions."
Republican strategist Karen Hanretty
Also on the June 7 edition of The O'Reilly Factor, Republican strategist Karen Hanretty asserted that Coulter's attacks on the 9-11 widows were not "mean spirited," but rather "tongue-in-cheek," "satire," and examples of "Ann's own personal style." Hanretty further argued that "this entire discussion" of Coulter's book "proves the point" that "liberals regularly trot out these heroes, or as she calls them, 'human shields' that Republicans can't refute."
CNN Headline News' Glenn Beck
On the June 8 edition of his nationally syndicated radio show, CNN Headline News host Glenn Beck stated emphatically that Coulter was "right" about the "9-11 wives." Beck agreed with Coulter that "[j]ust because you lost somebody in a tragedy doesn't mean that you get a free pass for the rest of your life." Beck also stated: "I like Ann Coulter," and said he did not "have a problem" with her characterization of some 9-11 widows as "the witches of East Brunswick [N.J.]." But he said he had "a real problem" with her assertion that those widows were "enjoying the death of their spouse" -- a comment he dubbed a rhetorical "hand grenade."
From the June 7 edition of Fox News' The O'Reilly Factor:
O'REILLY: Now for the top story tonight, another view of this, joining us from Chicago, Fox News contributor Sandy Rios, a conservative analyst. Where am I going wrong here Sandy?
RIOS: Well, Bill, I think, I don't disagree with your basic premise. I mean, it is certainly not my choice to attack people. However, we are living in strange times. And I think while everybody else is making nice, Ann's words are laser-focused on truth. She says things that no one else dares say and it kind of made me think about, for instance, holocaust pictures. Do we have to see pictures of emaciated bodies to understand what happened? It's kind of offensive. But, you know what? Yes, we do.
Sometimes I think Ann's words, yes, as harsh as they are, they are like a clarion wake-up call, like cold water, like, "Stop it!" Because women have lost their husbands in an accidental bombing, which is tragic, and we have great sympathy for them, does not give them license to then criticize the commander in chief, to work against --
O'REILLY: Whoa, whoa. Whoa, whoa. Hold it. They're American citizens. They can criticize the commander in chief all day long.
RIOS: And they can be criticized in return.
O'REILLY: You can criticize their criticism, absolutely. Look, there's nobody who did more damage to Cindy Sheehan in this country than I did, but I did it by exposing her agenda.
RIOS: Yes you did, Bill. I agree.
O'REILLY: Telling people who was behind her movement, who was paying the bills, who was running her. I did not, I did not, I did not call the woman any names, disparage her as an American citizen or do any of that. And if I had, I would have lost the debate instead of Cindy Sheehan losing credibility in my opinion.
RIOS: You know, I know that that's true. Bill, I like the way you did that and I thank goodness you did. But I would say that Ann is a unique person. I don't believe Ann does this stuff for theatrics. I think she really believes what she is saying and she has certainly a gift of words and imagery.
O'REILLY: If you're going to stand by that Sandy, then Ann Coulter writes in her book that these people are enjoying their husband's deaths. Now, come on, you know that's not true. That's brutal to say something like that.
RIOS: It is brutal. But Bill, I would say this, I do think we're living in a time where a lot of people enjoy the death of their loved ones. I know that sounds terrible.
O'REILLY: It sounds awful. In order to say that to specific people, you're going to have to prove it.
RIOS: No, I know that. Personally, I would not say it, but I am telling you that I think it's true that people are making a lot of money off the death of their loved ones in a lot of different cases.
O'REILLY: That may be true.
RIOS: Or the disability of their loved ones and I think we've kind of gotten into a culture of that that probably needs to be exposed. And how do you say that?
O'REILLY: All right. But here's the point. Ms. Coulter has a good point about these women being used by one spectrum of the political debate in this country. That is a valid point. That's why I used the David Letterman clip. It is absolutely valid. But by calling these women "witches, harpies," by saying that they should poise in Playboy, and all of these things, she diminishes her argument, don't you get that? She then becomes an object of derision herself, and then what her is point gets lost. Do you think Matt Lauer or any of these people care about the point she made? No, they are after her.
RIOS: Yes, Bill. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I actually do agree with you and when I dialogue and argue about these things, I try never to make them personal. But, I think Ann is unique and I think she plays a unique role and I think her words are like, it's like cold water.
O'REILLY: It wakes you up.
O'REILLY: Do you think she enjoys this? Is this fun for Ann Coulter now to put herself in the crosshairs of the nation once again? Do you think she enjoys it?
RIOS: I don't know, Bill. I can't imagine that she enjoys this kind of criticism.
O'REILLY: I'm going to ask her tomorrow. She is coming on The Radio Factor. She's coming on The Radio Factor.
RIOS: She loves to be combative, but I don't think she enjoys this harsh criticism back. I think she really believes --
O'REILLY: What she really believes that those people are enjoying their husband's demise? Come on. I don't think she believes that.
RIOS: I think she -- yeah, I believe that Ann probably does believe that. I don't think she can know that.
O'REILLY: All right. Anyway, look, we're going to talk to her on the radio tomorrow. We're gonna have a -- she is very frank with me, Ann is. And we'll see what she says --
RIOS: And that's what is so refreshing about Ann Coulter. She is very frank. She plays an important role, I think.
O'REILLY: Appreciate it, Sandy. And we'll have more on the Coulter controversy a bit later on.
HANRETTY: Well, you know, I picked up Ann Coulter's book today. I read Chapter 5, starting on Page 99, which talks about the Jersey women, as they've become to be known, actually the Jersey Girls.
And I think that if you read some of what Ann Coulter is saying and you put it into context, I don't think it's mean-spirited. I think a lot of it is sort of tongue-in-cheek. And Ann's own personal style probably wouldn't be my style or yours or [National Public Radio correspondent and Fox News analyst] Juan [William]'s; it's certainly Ann's style.
And I doubt Hillary Clinton did bother to pick up the book or read it, but I'll bet she did read the excerpts in the news on the news today on the Drudge Report and everywhere else.
And, quite frankly, I think that this entire discussion evolving around Ann Coulter right now, in fact, proves the point that she is making in Chapter 5 of her book, which is that liberals regularly trot out these heroes or, as she calls them, "human shields" that Republicans can't refute.
So if you want to talk about the war on terror, they'll drag out Cindy Sheehan and say, well, you can't -- as you well know -- you can't criticize Cindy Sheehan because her son died in the war. Or --
O'REILLY: Now, look, that's a legitimate point. But, Karen, for you to sit there and say that writing in a book that the four women from New Jersey are enjoying their husband's deaths is not --
HANRETTY: These are not just any four women, Bill.
O'REILLY: That's not mean-spirited? That's kind of a stunning statement for you to make. I mean --
HANRETTY: Well, I think you need to put it into context. I don't know if you actually read the chapter.
O'REILLY: I did read the chapter, and I read it. And I read it, like 18 times, because I said, you know, I mean, she doesn't know how these women are grieving. No one does.
HANRETTY: I agree. I agree.
O'REILLY: And to say that they're enjoying their husband's deaths, I can't -- I'm sorry.
HANRETTY: There isn't much --
O'REILLY: I mean, calling them -- calling them the witches of New Brunswick and all of that, yes, hyperbole and, you know, satire, Jonathan Swift, whatever.
HANRETTY: That was satire. That was the reference to the whole Witches of Eastwick. And if people catch that reference, I don't know. Does everything that Ann Coulter says in that chapter about these four women, and these are not just any old ordinary four widows, mind you. That should also be pointed out. These are political activists who have gone after --
O'REILLY: They are -- they are definitely activists.
HANRETTY: They have attacked Condoleezza Rice.
O'REILLY: But you could have done that -- you could have done that as I have done, and I did with Ms. Sheehan, as we pointed out, in another way.
From the June 7 edition of MSNBC's Scarborough Country, with Scarborough, Burkman, and Air America radio host Mike Papantonio :
SCARBOROUGH: Jack Burkman, it's getting very ugly out there. Can you defend the comments of Ann Coulter?
BURKMAN: All the way, Joe! At the risk of being still more controversial this week, if anything, in a lot of ways, I think she understates the point. Ann is telling the truth! Regardless of the language -- maybe some of her language is inflammatory. My God's sakes, she's selling books. These women exploited the deaths of their husbands. That's what they did. They did it -- they did it before the bodies were cold. They rushed into television, to media, to books --
SCARBOROUGH: Jack, if my family members died --
SCARBOROUGH: Hold on, Jack. If my family members died on 9-11, I would be raising hell, too, if I didn't think the government did everything they should have done.
BURKMAN: Well, yes, Joe --
PAPANTONIO: You know, Joe -- Joe --
BURKMAN: You have a point, but the issue is that -- what I would argue, and I think what Ann is arguing, is that was not their motivation. Sure, they can cut ads for John Kerry. They can have whatever type of political and economic view, and there's nothing wrong with selling books. But what is morally wrong is when you exploit the death of your family members to do that and to make money!
You know, Osama bin Laden is sitting tonight in a cave somewhere in the subcontinent, and he's amazed. You know why? He's shocked because what we have done, what these women have done, and others have done with 9-11, they have commercialized him. They've taken 9-11 and --
SCARBOROUGH: Let's stop. We want to stay on this 9-11 widows issue and not go back to Oklahoma City. Jack Burkman, Hillary Clinton stepped into the fray, and her comments were that Coulter was vicious and mean- spirited. Can you agree with Senator Clinton that perhaps Ann Coulter should have used her words more -- chosen her words more carefully?
BURKMAN: You know, Joe, I really can't. In fact, in this society, we have too much PC. You know, Ann had said this. I had that thought five years ago when I saw how breathlessly these women stepped into just the fame thing. You know, they remind me of Cindy Sheehan and so many other people who before the bodies are cold, they're out selling and trying to make money.
But I would say this. You know, my worthy adversary today, my opponent, he's -- he doesn't -- he has not addressed the charge. He refuses to do that. The only thing he will comment on is Ann Coulter's past. And so let me ask him this question. Do you feel -- looking at these women, don't you have to agree that they were immoral in the fast way in which, the speedy way in which they exploited commercially their husbands' deaths?
SCARBOROUGH: I want to play another Ann Coulter clip. She appeared on [MSNBC's] The Situation with Tucker Carlson last night and didn't back down. Take a look at what she said.
COULTER [video clip]: Why can't we hear these half-baked liberal bromides from Howard Dean? Why do liberals always choose spokesmen like the "Jersey Girls," like Cindy Sheehan, like Joe Wilson, who, because of some personal aspect of their life, we are not allowed to respond.
SCARBOROUGH: Jack Burkman?
BURKMAN: Joe, I think there is a -- Ann is right on the money. I think she was eloquent and articulate. I will not shrink from the truth. I will tell you, there is a powerful growing and disturbing trend in this country of people, when their loved ones die, they exploit it, they rush right into the -- they rush right into fold, and because -- they rush right to the fore -- and because of this PC thing, where you can't criticize someone in the media if there's been a death in their family, they get away with it.
From the June 7 edition of Fox News' Hannity & Colmes:
HANNITY: "Coulter the Cruel." From what I understand, even Hillary was attacking you today.
HANNITY: And what were her comments?
COULTER: She said the book should have been named "Heartless." It was mean to these women. And I responded to the New York Times reporter asking for a comment that, before Hillary refers to other people being mean to women, she should talk to her husband, who was accused of rape by Juanita Broaddrick and was groping Kathleen Willey simultaneously with her own spouse committing suicide. Maybe she should talk to her husband about being mean to women.
HANNITY: Let me start -- let's set the controversy for the book, because I actually read the book cover to cover, and I read the chapter in question here.
COULTER: Thank you.
HANNITY: You're making a broader point. You're saying that liberalism cannot be sold by the people in office, and you feel people like Cindy Sheehan, who lost a son in Iraq --
HANNITY: -- Jack Murtha, who was a former Marine --
HANNITY: -- these four -- what you call Jersey women.
COULTER: They call themselves the Jersey Girls.
HANNITY: The Jersey Girls, they lost husbands on 9-11.
COULTER: Right, along with thousands of other women, yes.
HANNITY: And you are saying that they are being used by the left to make points that they cannot make on their own. Isn't that the point of the chapter?
COULTER: Yes, it's liberal infallibility. They used to have complete, 100 percent control of news dissemination in America. They lost that with Fox News, with talk radio, with the Internet. So then they started complaining about, you know, angry voices, political dialogue has never been so divisive. And then people remember the sweetness and light we were getting from the left during, say, the [Supreme Court nominee Robert] Bork hearings, so that wasn't really working.
So now they send out spokespeople who, because of some personal tragedy, we're not allowed to respond to, because their husbands died in 9-11, because they had a son die in Iraq. If they're making a point worth making, they are entering the public dialogue, how about letting Howard Dean make the point?
HANNITY: All right, but here's -- here -- I guess this is what people are saying. This is why you're on the front page of the tabloids in New York. You're saying they've entered the political arena. Now, I've gone and I've been looking at some of the comments, for example, of the Jersey women in particular.
HANNITY: They have been very harsh about Condi Rice, about Karl Rove --
COULTER: Oh, yes.
HANNITY: -- about President Bush, very outspoken. They were on the campaign trail with John Edwards and with John Kerry.
COULTER: Right. They cut a campaign commercial for Kerry.
HANNITY: They cut a campaign -- so basically what you're saying is, if they're going to enter the political arena separate from the loss of their husbands, that now this is a dialogue. If they call the president a liar, this is now a dialogue. And you're saying most people won't dare get engaged with them because of what they've been through, which is the purpose of --
COULTER: That's certainly been true until now. I think I've opened it up now. I think I've broken the taboo.
HANNITY: Well, let me -- here's -- this is, I guess, where people say, "All right, but did Ann Coulter go too far?" "These self-obsessed women seem genuinely unaware that 9-11 was an attack on our nation and acted as if it happened only to them." "These broads are millionaires, lionized on TV" --
COULTER: That's true.
HANNITY: -- "and in articles reveling in their status as celebrities, stalked by the grief-arazzis. I've never seen people enjoying their husbands' death so much."
COULTER: That's right.
HANNITY: This is the heart of it. Did that take it out of the arena of debate and go to the personal?
COULTER: The truth cannot be delivered with novocain. There have been plenty of precious, little acerbic articles written about these women.
No, the truth comes out screaming and bops people on the head. Now, Americans recognize this, and I think, in the future, they won't fall for this practice of liberals foisting their unassailable political opinions on us by using a victim we're not allowed to respond to.
They immunize the message by choosing a messenger with a tragedy. I've had it with that.
And, by the way, all of this great pain and hurt my book has caused them, [Kristin] Breitweiser's [9-11 widow and "Jersey Girl"] response to it was to say, "To respond to Ann Coulter is as ridiculous as Congress debating gay marriage." Now, does that sound like a woman who's hurt or does that sound like a woman who's appealing to her Hollywood set?
HANNITY: Let me ask this. You feel sorry that these women lost their husbands.
COULTER: I feel sorry for all of the widows of 9-11.
COULTER: I do not believe that sanctifies their message or deserves special sanctions...
HANNITY: Their political message.
COULTER: Their political message. That is what we're talking about here. They're the ones who claimed to be responsible for the 9-11 Commission, a total [President Bill] Clinton whitewash commission. They have attacked Bush; they have attacked Condoleezza Rice. They're cutting campaign commercials for Kerry, but we can't respond because their husbands died.
HANNITY: But that's still --
COULTER: No, I've had it with this liberal infallibility, and I think a lot of Americans are seething with anger that we can't respond. Put up somebody we can respond to.
HANNITY: There were some very -- there were some very specific charges by some of the women from Jersey about the president and how the president should have responded, how the president didn't react.
COULTER: Right, right.
HANNITY: And in the book, in this specific chapter, you go into a long dialogue about, well, the leading up to this in the Clinton years.
HANNITY: And so what you're saying is this is a --
COULTER: But they like what Clinton did.
HANNITY: But the point here is, is that they have taken a strong, a harsh line politically against the president, that they name-call on their side, and that now it's time to challenge them, based on what these issues are, because they've gotten a pass because of their positions.
COULTER: Right. And it is entirely premised on a tragedy happening to them. As -- as I was saying last -- I think [co-host] Alan [Colmes] interrupted me, so it may not have gotten out -- I think this is one of the ugliest things the left has done to political dialogue in this country, this idea that you need some sort of personal authenticity in order to make a political point.
I mean, can I not talk to you about the Irish potato famine because I don't understand it? Can you not talk to me about women? No, how about let's just debate and cut the personal authenticity?
Moreover, you know, liberals have managed to eliminate the idea of manly honor. Instead, all they have is womanly indignation. They just love being indignant, indignant. Does this mean they accept the other ideas in my book? Does this mean, you know, Darwinism, everything I say about Darwinism being a crock, that's all settled here?
No, they just settle on one little thing, so that they can express indignation.
HANNITY: I want to tell you what we've done.
You have accepted a challenge to -- on the issues, you will debate any of these women or all of these women tomorrow night, if they want to come. And you've accepted our invitation.
COULTER: Sure, but I'm not going to treat them like victims, as, you know, Cindy Sheehan -- and, oh, you can't talk about -- respond to Joe Wilson, because he has a wife at the CIA. Well, the only reason he has any knowledge of which he claimed to have insider knowledge was because his wife worked at the CIA.
So to immunize his attack on the president by saying, "You can't mention his wife works at the CIA," I mean, if that was so dangerous, which it wasn't -- she wasn't undercover -- but if it were, how about not writing an op-ed for The New York Times attacking the president? Don't keep up putting up messengers we're not allowed to respond to.
HANNITY: All right, Ann Coulter, thanks for being with us.
COULTER: Thank you, thank you.
From the June 8 broadcast of The Glenn Beck Show:
BECK: Also an interview with Michael Berg. That's Nick Berg's dad. I haven't heard the CNN version yet, I heard it on Fox this morning. I've seen it played a couple of times on CNN in the morning with what's her name, Soledad [O'Brien]. Dan, have you heard it with Soledad?
DAN ANDROS (producer): I heard it, like the last 2 minutes of it.
BECK: She's somebody who doesn't like me a lot. She thinks I'm a hatemonger.
ANDROS: That's weird.
BECK: Yes. Who would have guessed that coming?
ANDROS: Couldn't see it.
BECK: But so you did hear it did, you say?
BECK: You did hear it. Is it a love-fest?
ANDROS: It's not a love-fest, but she's very somber in it. She's very, "Oh, I don't want to offend you in any way. You've lost a son."
BECK: So what -- does that give you a free pass for the rest of your life? Does that give you a free pass? I don't think it does. I really don't. It's like everyone's coming out against Ann Coulter. I don't know, I'm really torn -- we'll get into this later -- I'm really torn on Ann Coulter. I don't know how to feel about Ann Coulter. I mean, I like Ann Coulter. I like some of the things that she says. Some of the things, she's just like -- she throws hand grenades. And she's not -- I don't think she's trying to do it for comedy. I think she just -- she has no -- there's no filter on her, you know what I mean? And maybe that's a good thing. I'm not sure. I don't know. But what she said about the 9-11 wives? Right! She's right! Those -- those four women that she is specifically addressing, she's right about. Can't you say those things? Just because you lost somebody in a tragedy doesn't mean that you get a free pass for the rest of your life. I mean, at least part of it she's right about.
BECK: All right. The other thing I want to get to is Ann Coulter. I don't know how I feel about Ann Coulter. I mean, I like Ann Coulter. And yet, at the same time I'm torn. And here's what I was thinking. I, you know, was just talking to Pat, my best friend in Houston, about this. And Pat's like "Aw, Jesus, is Ann Coulter too harsh for you." I said, well, I think Ann Coulter is kind of like Al Franken. You know, Ann Coulter -- well no. No. Ann Coulter is actually funny, Al Franken is not. But Al Franken just throws grenades just to throw grenades. You know what I mean? He says the most outrageous things he can say just to sell a book. And don't get me wrong -- I get that.
BECK: There is something to be said for some sort of -- you know what it is, I've never been bothered by Ann Coulter. Two years ago, I wasn't bothered by her. I'm bothered by her just a little bit now. And I think it's because I'm so tired of the partisan bickering. And Pat said to me this morning, he said "You know what, Glenn, it just feels good to hear somebody say that." Yeah, it does. But doesn't it just -- then it just keeps going. Doesn't it?
BECK: And one of the quotes that Ann Coulter is saying is -- before criticizing -- I'm sorry. No, no, wait, that's a quote going back to Ann Coulter's response to Hillary Clinton, because Hillary Clinton says she's 'heartless' and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Ann Coulter called the few women that lost husbands in 9-11, that are the same women that I'm sick to death of, she called them "the witches of East Brunswick." Now here's where -- I don't have the problem with that -- I get that. That's kind of funny. Here's where I have a real problem with her. She said "I've never seen anybody enjoying the death of their spouse as much as these people." That's amazing. Now if she's going for laughs, maybe, but I don't think she is. That's a hand grenade. That's just throwing a hand grenade.