Limbaugh falsely claimed 9th Circuit Court is "the most reversed court of appeals in the country"
On the November 3 broadcast of his nationally syndicated radio show, Rush Limbaugh falsely claimed that the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals is "the most reversed circuit court of appeals in the country." Limbaugh assailed a recent ruling by the court, which found that the Palmdale, California, school district, in administering a psychological survey containing questions on sexuality and masturbation to elementary school students, did not violate parents' privacy rights or their right to control their children's upbringing. Limbaugh stated that the ruling would "probably end up being one of the many such cases [decided by the 9th Circuit Court] that eventually get overturned [on appeal]." But in recent years, the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals' reversal rate has been approximately equal to the average reversal rate for circuit courts nationally, and during its most recent term, the court's reversal rate was below the national average.
During the 2003-2004 term, the Supreme Court reversed 76 percent of the cases that it chose to hear from appeals of 9th Circuit decisions, compared to a 77-percent average reversal rate for all circuit courts nationally. During the 2002-2003 term, the court's reversal rate was 75 percent, compared to a 73-percent average reversal rate nationally; and during the 2001-2002 term, the 9th Circuit's 76-percent reversal rate was roughly the same as the national average of 75 percent. In previous years, the 9th Circuit Court's reversal rate had exceeded the national average, most notably during the 1996-1997 term, when the court's 95-percent reversal rate far exceeded the national average of 71 percent and "earned the Western circuit [the 9th Circuit] its reputation as the nation's 'most reversed,' " according to a July 3, 2004, Sacramento Bee article.
Media Matters for America has previously noted attempts by Rev. Jerry Falwell, founder and national chairman of the Moral Majority Coalition, to dismiss the 9th Circuit Court as a left-leaning court that "[gets its] rulings overturned almost every time." Falwell also called for "doing away" with the 9th Circuit Court, an apparent reference to attempts by Republican lawmakers to split up the 9th Circuit.
From the November 3 broadcast of The Rush Limbaugh Show:
LIMBAUGH: They [the 9th Circuit Court] dismissed a lawsuit by elementary school parents who were outraged that the Palmdale School District had surveyed students about sex. Now, Palmdale is down in Southern California. It's where the B-2 bomber was built, by the way, and maybe still is. Well, the surveys asked students how often they thought about sex, among other questions. The 9th Circus [sic] said that parents of public school children have "no fundamental right" to be the exclusive provider of sexual information in their children.
The parents maintain that they have the sole right to control the upbringing of their children by introducing them to matters of and relating to sex. Now, you tell me we don't need judicial reform in this country, when the 9th Circus [sic] Court of Appeals gets -- you tell me -- oh, you pro-choicers out there, "Government, stay out of our bedroom. Hey, government, stay out of our private lives. Government, stay out of these." Well, the government can clearly educate your child on sex now, and you, as parent, do not hold that exclusive right according to the U.S. 9th Circus [sic] Court of Appeals in San Francisco.
Just -- it's just -- it's hilarious out there, folks. Sometimes, you just -- all you can do is sit back and laugh. Now, will this go to the U.S. Supreme Court? I don't know, but if it does, it'll probably end up being one of the many such cases that eventually get overturned, overruled. The 9th Circus [sic], the most reversed circuit court of appeals in the country.
Let's see now.
Limbaugh's usual M. O. is still in effect.
Limbaugh gets in front of the microphone, or posts at his website. He lies, or tells a half-truth.
The brain-dead dittoheads lap up everything he says. More and more money pours into Limbaugh's fat pockets.
You don't even listen to him. How would you know? It seems that the biggest problem with his statement was that they were the most reversed court a "few years ago"... but not "currently". In fact, they're 1% below the national average! Woohoo! And just like a liberal, you ignore the period of time when they were 20% above the average... which is when they earned that reputation. That's the biggest problems with this site and the liberals on it... you find a shade of meaning or a small misquote and you think you've just "proven something". My God, if you turned this laserbeam-like focus on the liberal media for just a moment, this site would be 100 times its current size. Every day I tune into Rush or any other "talk radio" host I hear more audio samples of lies from the liberal press than I hear in a week. I'm not impressed. +xeven+
xeven,
"Every day I tune into Rush or any other "talk radio" host I hear more audio samples of lies from the liberal press than I hear in a week."
Every day? Well,Now I understand.That explains your "Don't you talk about my Momma!" attitude.You can't convince someone of anything if they've already got their minds made up about everything.
Rush is correct ... just look at the link that is posted from MMFA.
[link to www.law.com]
93-94: 9th (73% reversed) - All (50%)
94-95: 9th (82% reversed) - All (65%)
95-96: 9th (83% reversed) - All (60%)
96-97: 9th (95% reversed) - All (71%)
97-98: 9th (76% reversed) - All (59%)
99-00: 9th (90% reversed) - All (58%)
How are you trying to fool? And this is the link you provided.
the 9th Circuit has been reversed 80% or more ... 4 years out of the past 12 years.
Look at the average, genius.
It would be interesting to see an accounting of total cases reversed. As was pointed out, only the statistics quoted only include cases that the SCOTUS decided to take on. What about all the cases they refused to hear PLUS all the cases that weren't appealed further.
Oh...Now I see what you did. You went back far enough to make the numbers look your way. What does the reversal rate of '93 have to do with the current court?
You're certainly right that there is some gaming of the statistics going on here. Still, it is an interesting observation that the 9th circut was reversed at a massive rate in the years 1990-1995, but was only reversed at a typical rate in the years 1995-2000. Does anyone here know of a possible explanation? Did the make-up of the court change aroung 1995?
by ichbin - Monday November 7, 2005 01:53:33 PM EST ------------------------
According to Wikopedia, of the current 47 justices on the 9th circuit court of appeals, 17 were appointed in 1996 or after. When 2/3 of the court has been around more than ten years, I think it's fair to look at their record over a period of time to determine whether or not they are the "most overturned court". Clearly, for a period of years they were.
by Scott Johnson -
Oh...Now I see what you did. You went back far enough to make the numbers look your way. What does the reversal rate of '93 have to do with the current court?
-----------------------------------------------------
Scott,
I never said 93' had anything to do with the current court. The link that was provided my Media Matters went back to 93', that's why I started there.
Also, going back to 93' gives everyone more than just one year to look at.
If you look at the link, then Rush is correct. What about that don't you understand?
Just look at the chart ... its not that hard to figure out.
"If you look at the link, then Rush is correct. What about that don't you understand? "
Why not go back further? Why stop at '93? Plus, this doesn't address whether the 9th was THE most overturned circuit for those years.
- Limbaugh falsely claimed 9th Circuit Court is "the most reversed court of appeals in the country - mmfa
mmfa provides no evidence to debunk this claim. A real puny effort. ================================================================
- this doesn't address whether the 9th was THE most overturned circuit for those years. - scott johnson
Exactly. You and mmfa have both blathered without backing up the claim that Limbaugh was inaccurate. What mmfa has provided is the fact that the 9th Circuit has been overturned many more times than the "all circuit" average.
This report is real junk science from mmfa...LMAO!
In fact Media Matters does address this issue in their statement.
They say
Limbaugh's claim is false.
Media Matters says that Limbaugh's claim is false.
Limbaugh said "The 9th Circus [sic], the most reversed circuit court of appeals in the country."
But that's not true.
Plus, MMFA is being generous. They are comparing the 9th to an average of the other circuits. In reality, all they would have to show is that the 9th was over turned less than a single circuit. Instead, they compared it to the more rigorous average.
- Media Matters says that Limbaugh's claim is false. - dem in texas ================================================================
You're right...but that's all they did...they just said it! The evidence that "mmfa provides" shows that the 9th has had a much larger percentage of cases overturned than the average.
mmfa has in no way refuted Limbaugh.
It would be different if Limbaugh said the 9th Court WAS the most overturned Circuit Court. But that's not true anymore. You can try and game the numbers going back 12 years, but what does that show? It shows that the 9th Court decisions no longer get overturned at the rate they used to get overturned, and that 9th Court decisions are overturned no more often than all the other Circuit Courts; their overturn rate is now BELOW the average of all of the Circuit Courts. Wasn't always the case, but it is now.
wasademocrat,
can you not read ?
rush said the 9th "was the most reversed circuit court of appeals in the country".
the data you displayed doesn't support rush's statement, it only compares the 9th with the average of all of the circuit courts of appeals.
we shouldn't have to explain this to you: in order for you to validate rush's statement, you need to get the figures FOR EACH circuit court and then determine whether or not the 9th is the highest.
why don't you find this data and get back with us.
Here is a statistic or two I'd be interested in knowing. What percentage of the 9th Circuit Courts TOTAL rulings were overturned? What is that number compared to the other Circuit Courts? Those numbers would be more indicative of how the court is doing.
hmmmm, as usual, rush is half-baked, if that. first off, the B-2 Bomber was built in every congressional district in the country, not just southern cal. that's the only reason it was approved, in spite of the air force not wanting it.
secondly, those are only partial stats on the 9th circuit, just those cases, as noted by another poster, that were granted certiori to the SC, not the total # of cases actually heard by the 9th.
i was bothered by the seemingly high reversal rate overall, until i realized that it only counted cases heard by the SC, not the total cases heard by all of the circuit courts of appeals. it then made sense: the SC only grants certiori to those cases which have a compelling constitutional issue at stake. as a result, the odds of reversal are necessarily higher.
the 9th may hear 300 cases a year, of which 20 are granted certiori by the SC. of that 20, 15 are reversed by the SC, a "75% reversal rate". actually, the true reversal rate is only 5% (15/300). quite a significant difference. i suspect the same is true for all of the circuits.
this is called the sin of ommision.
Percentages have nothing to do with Limbaugh's claim. Why is MMFA even quoting percentages:
Limbaugh's claim is the 9th circuit is "the most reversed court of appeals in the country."
It is not a batting average. It is who has the most home runs or the most doubles or triples.
Limbaugh is dead on correct. From wikpedia:
The Ninth Circuit is the most overturned appeals court in the United States.. In total numbers, that is correct. In terms or percentages of cases which are heard by the US Supreme Court, that is not correct. A larger percentage of cases is overturned from other courts than from the Ninth. It's only that more cases from the Ninth get moved up to the Supreme Court that it has so many cases overturned. And in the latest term, only one more than the next-overturned, which one it is, I don't recall right now. RickK 06:19, 26 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Yes and no. First, more cases are heard from the Ninth Court in general. Many fewer are heard from other courts, so it is easy for another court to bat a high percentage if only a few cases are being heard. I believe the speculation is that the Supreme Court keeps a much closer eye on the Ninth Circuit than other courts. If you also look at the last 5 or 10 years, the statistics are also much clearer that the Ninth Circuit is the most overturned. By way of analogy, it's like the Yankees. They don't win the World Series every year, but they are the best team this last decade. Sure, if you only look at a single year or two, someone else might have a higher percentage, but the gap widens over time.
Here's the wikpedia talk link
[link to en.wikipedia.org]
sorry leatherhelmet, i strongly disagree. actually, your analogy to the yankees makes my point even stronger. raw numbers mean nothing, unless you happen to be one of them. percentages tell the tale. they are the basis of all predictive science.
i'll give you an example:
50,000 chinese are killed in an earthquake. my god, that's horrible! except, out of a billion chinese, 50k doesn't even register on the scale, because it's only .00005 of the total population. puts it in a whole different perspective. again, should you be one of the 50k, your perspective may differ.
the bottom line: statistically speaking, you have a very slim chance of being killed by an earthquake in china. you probably have a better chance of being run over by a taxi in bejing, though that is speculative on my part.
same as with the yankees: this year, they didn't make the series, but over their entire history, they have, statistically speaking, a greater probability of making the series, than any other team in baseball, in spite of their ownership.
however, the caveat: in order to get a full appreciation for the truths that statistics tell, you must have all the data; total population (n), etc., not just a part of it.
this is where the famous quote about "lies, damn lies and statistics." comes from.
so no, limbaug is not "dead on", he is, as usual, dead off.
Somehow, I don't think if the Nationals won 4 World Series rings in the next 10 years and won 70 percent of their games you would say they are the winningest team in the history of baseball. I think maybe the Yankees is the perfect example (it is not mine, i posted that directly from wikpedia).
The Yankees got beat the last two years. The 9th circuit had less reversals in a few years. Yet the Yankees have won more titles and the 9th circuit is the undisputed king of reversals over time. In raw numbers alone, they have more reversals than anyone. The Yankees are the King and 9th Circuit is the Queen.
i think we agree on the yankees.
as far as the 9th circuit, you're still wrong. we don't know what the raw numbers are, only those that were actually granted certiori. the raw number would be the total number of cases heard by the court, the n if you will, of our statistical analysis.
that's where limbaugh's claim fails, he only uses part of the data, to make his point. actually, we also need the total number of cases that were appealed to the SC as well, to get a complete picture of the 9th's sustension rate. again, all we have are those that were granted certiori, not all those that requested it. if 100 case appealed to the SC, but only 20 were granted certiori, that's an 80% sustension rate right there.
to get a complete comparitive analysis, we would require the same data from all the circuits.