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Now they tell us: AP exposed Bush's use of straw man arguments after years of uncritically reporting them

March 21, 2006 2:47 pm ET
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SUMMARY: In a March 20 article, the AP's Jennifer Loven gave numerous examples of Bush's use of the "straw man argument," noting that he is resorting to the tactic "more often these days." But nowhere in the article did she acknowledge that many AP writers -- including her -- have simply reported Bush's misrepresentations of his opponents' arguments without challenging them.

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In a March 20 article, Associated Press staff writer Jennifer Loven noted President Bush's frequent use of "straw man" arguments, in which he misrepresents his opponents' arguments in order to knock them down. Loven gave numerous examples of Bush's use of this rhetorical device in speeches and press conferences and noted that he is resorting to the tactic "more often these days." But nowhere in the article did she acknowledge that many AP writers -- including her -- have simply reported Bush's misrepresentations of his opponents' arguments without challenging them.

In the article, "Bush's Rhetoric Targets Unnamed Critics," Loven explained in detail how Bush typically goes about mounting a "straw man" argument:

When the president starts a sentence with "some say" or offers up what "some in Washington" believe, as he is doing more often these days, a rhetorical retort almost assuredly follows.

The device usually is code for Democrats or other White House opponents. In describing what they advocate, Bush often omits an important nuance or substitutes an extreme stance that bears little resemblance to their actual position.

He typically then says he "strongly disagrees" -- conveniently knocking down a straw man of his own making.

Bush routinely is criticized for dressing up events with a too-rosy glow. But experts in political speech say the straw man device, in which the president makes himself appear entirely reasonable by contrast to supposed "critics," is just as problematic.

Loven went on to cite various examples in which Bush used this tactic to mischaracterize and attack his opponents' positions on a wide variety of issues. What she failed to mention, however, was that the AP had in many cases reported these arguments, without challenge. For instance, Loven targeted Bush's claim -- made during an October 25, 2005, speech -- that some critics of the war "say perhaps we ought to just pull out of Iraq." She correctly noted that, at the time, no Democrats were advocating an immediate pull-out:

Last fall, the rhetorical tool became popular with Bush when the debate heated up over when troops would return from Iraq. "Some say perhaps we ought to just pull out of Iraq," he told GOP supporters in October, echoing similar lines from other speeches. "That is foolhardy policy."

Yet even the speediest plan, as advocated by only a few Democrats, suggested not an immediate drawdown, but one over six months. Most Democrats were not even arguing for a specific troop withdrawal timetable.

But on October 25, 2005, Loven's colleague Nedra Pickler uncritically reported Bush's claim, noting only that the remark earned him "the one standing ovation to interrupt his speech." Further, on November 29, 2005, Bush asserted, "We've heard some people say, 'Pull them out right now.' That's a huge mistake." An AP article published the same day -- this time written by military writer Robert Burns -- again repeated this claim without question.

In her March 20 article, Loven also highlighted Bush's "mischaracterization" of the opposition to his counter-terrorism policies, which he repeatedly advanced during his re-election campaign:

Running for re-election against Sen. John Kerry in 2004, Bush frequently used some version of this line to paint his Democratic opponent as weaker in the fight against terrorism: "My opponent and others believe this matter is a matter of intelligence and law enforcement."

The assertion was called a mischaracterization of Kerry's views even by a Republican, Sen. John McCain of Arizona.

But Loven made no mention of the fact that Bush has continued to put forward this argument since winning re-election in 2004 and that the AP has reported it without challenge. For example, a January 2 article by AP staff writer Deb Riechmann uncritically reported Bush making this claim about his warrantless domestic surveillance program during a January 1 visit to the Brooke Army Medical Center:

After spending hours visiting wounded troops suffering from what he described as the "horrible consequences" of war, President Bush minced no words in defending the domestic spying program he authorized to foil terrorists.

"Some say, well maybe this isn't a war -- maybe this is just a law enforcement operation. I strongly disagree," Bush said Sunday at Brooke Army Medical Center in San Antonio, where he answered reporters' questions about the eavesdropping program set up after the 9-11 attacks. "We're at war with an enemy that wants to hurt us again."

In Washington, lawmakers are preparing for hearings into the domestic spying program, which Bush contends does not involve widespread eavesdropping on Americans.

In addition to those examples of Bush straw man arguments that Loven cited, he has offered numerous others in recent years, many of which the AP has similarly repeated. For example, in a November 4, 2004, press conference, he strongly disagreed with "an attitude among some that certain people may never be free -- they just don't long to be free":

BUSH: There is a certain attitude in the world, by some, that says that it's a waste of time to try to promote free societies in parts of the world. ... And I fully understand that that might rankle some, and be viewed by some as folly. I just strongly disagree with those who do not see the wisdom of trying to promote free societies around the world. ... I simply do not agree with those who either say overtly or believe that certain societies cannot be free. It's just not a part of my thinking.

[...]

BUSH: [T]here is an attitude among some that certain people may never be free -- they just don't long to be free or are incapable of running an election. And I disagree with that. And the Afghan people, by going to the polls in the millions, proved that this administration's faith in freedom to change peoples' habits is worthy.

In a November 5, 2004, response, CJR Daily reporter Liz Cox Barrett flagged Bush's argument as a straw man:

"By some?" "Among some?" Why didn't a single reporter ask Bush the identity of these "some" who believe that "certain societies cannot be free," these "some" who believe that certain people are "incapable of running an election?"

[...]

It may not be that press was unwilling to press Bush to identify these "some" at the news conference yesterday, it may be that it was unable -- after all, Bush made it clear he would not be entertaining multi-part or follow-up questions. But reporters could at least have taken note of Bush's circumlocutions in today's coverage.

Indeed, the reporters who failed to take note included Loven herself. In a November 4, 2005, article, she repeated Bush's claim from the press conference, but let it go unquestioned:

Bush also pledged to pursue the foreign policy that was a flashpoint in the presidential campaign and has sparked criticism by some American allies in Europe.

"There is a certain attitude in the world by some that says that it's a waste of time to try to promote free societies in parts of the world," he said, a reference to Iraq in particular. "I've heard that criticism."

A November 4, 2005, article by AP White House correspondent Terence Hunt also repeated without challenge Bush's disagreement "with those who do not see the wisdom of trying to promote free societies around the world." And, as Barrett noted in her post, an un-bylined, November 4, 2005, AP article highlighted certain sections of Bush's speech, including his claim that there exists "a certain attitude in the world by some that says that it's a waste of time to try to promote free societies in parts of the world."

Bush again rolled out the straw man argument during his 2005 campaign to partially privatize Social Security. For instance, during a February 4, 2005, "Conversation on Social Security" held in Little Rock, Arkansas, Bush alleged that his opponents had mounted "campaigns" to convince current Social Security recipients that his plan would affect their monthly payments:

BUSH: And part of the problem with dealing with this issue, part of the problem is seeing -- seeing the problem and coming up with a solution is, a lot of people in political life are afraid of talking about it because they're afraid somebody in their state is going to say, well, when you talk about Social Security, really what you're doing is taking away my check. You know what I'm talking about? You've seen those campaigns. Old so-and-so is going to take away my check. Well, that's just not reality. Those are scare tactics. Senior citizens are just fine.

A February 4, 2005, AP article by Riechmann reported in the lead paragraph that Bush had warned against "scare tactics" and "decried the kind of opposition campaigns now being waged against his proposals, saying they mislead seniors into thinking they won't get the Social Security checks on which they depend." In a post that day on CJR Daily, Thomas Lang noted the AP's failure to point out "that a politician is using the straw man to paint his political opponents as scaremongers":

There is strong opposition to Bush's Social Security proposals. But we know of no example of opponents suggesting that current recipients of Social Security checks could be shortchanged by Bush's plan. It's an interesting accusation, but it's one that no one has made. And AP owes it to its readers to point that out.

Another example of the AP's failure to question these arguments came during the recent port controversy, sparked by the Bush administration's approval of a deal to transfer operations at six U.S. ports from a British firm to Dubai Ports World (DPW), a company owned by the government of Dubai, a member state of the United Arab Emirates (UAE). In response to congressional criticism of the acquisition, Bush and his aides repeatedly suggested anti-Arab bias on the part of those criticizing the deal. For example, during a February 28 joint press conference with Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, Bush said to reporters:

BUSH: And so my question to the members of Congress as they review this matter is, one, please look at the facts. And two, what kind of signal does it send throughout the world if it's okay for a British company to manage the ports, but not a company ... from the Arab world?

But, as Media Matters for America noted at the time, Bush falsely suggested that the only difference between the two companies was national origin. In fact, the law recognizes a different distinction: DPW is owned by a member state of the UAE; the British company was not state-owned. Under the law, the interagency panel that examines foreign investments in the United States must conduct an additional 45-day review when the acquisition of U.S. assets by a foreign, government-owned company provokes national security concerns. Many critics of the deal claimed that due to the UAE's "mixed" record on terrorism, the DPW transaction should have been subject to the additional review under the law and that the Bush administration therefore flouted the law by declining to conduct the full review.

Nonetheless, a March 1 article by AP staff writer Liz Sidoti repeated Bush's February 28 comments without challenge:

Bush, the final arbiter of the new investigation, suggested there was no reason to think it would produce any different outcome than the government's initial review and urged Congress to be careful.

"What kind of signal does it send throughout the world if it's OK for a British company to manage the ports but not a company that has been secured that has been cleared for security purposes from the Arab world?" he asked.

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    • Author by peet (March 21, 2006 2:56 pm ET)
         

      I doubt it. But, I'm glad to see that other standard news outlets are highlighting the insane amount of lying perpetrated by this administration.

      I would like to see how much of what Bush and his gaggle say actually rings true. Is that possible? Can we get a ruling on that?

      Report Abuse
    • Author by fantagor (March 21, 2006 2:58 pm ET)
         

      On second thought, no thanks to wide spread negligence on the part of the AP and other news agencies, Bush was reelected to a second term. So it's a little late pointing out the obvious now. Thanks for nada, AP.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by Intergalatic Purveyor (March 21, 2006 3:03 pm ET)
           

        Just like the NY Times witholding the story about unwarranted surveillance for a year helped get Bush re-elected. I have this strange feeling that if this story would have broke in say Septembe or October 2004 it might just have made a little difference in a race as close as that one.

        Report Abuse
    • Author by skiploader1111 (March 21, 2006 3:02 pm ET)
         

      And from tomorrow on, the AP all other major news sources will continue to uncritically report Bush's "straw man" arguements.

      Report Abuse
    • Author by Con Man (March 21, 2006 3:05 pm ET)
         

      Every politician does this. It's called rhetoric. People use language to try to influnce people to their position and straw men are an example of this. They are employed by almost everybody. Is this really that big of a shock?

      Report Abuse
      • Author by deaddogtanner (March 21, 2006 3:15 pm ET)
           

        The point is that the MSM is finally scrutinizing what is being said instead of merely reiterating the juiciest quotes. And that is a big shock.

        It would be nice to see the tide turn and have reporters actually do their jobs instead of merely taking dictation. If they were performing their duties with any sense of journalistic integrity 2 years ago then the Swift Boaters may have ended up being nothing more than an ongoing Fox News exclusive.

        Report Abuse
      • Author by nerzog (March 21, 2006 3:29 pm ET)
           

        Was it "just politics" when Bill Clinton wagged his finger at the camera and said "I didn't have sex with that woman..."? You tell me. I doubt if you could have found a Republican who thought so 7 years ago.

        I know it's painful to admit, but Puddinhead lied us into an unnecessary war. Now he's lying to cover his own butt and justify staying there for the sake of the Republican hold on absolute power. Just politics? Sorry, I don't buy it.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by Con Man (March 21, 2006 3:33 pm ET)
             

          Thanks for proving my point. Clinton and Iraq have nothing to do with this, but thanks for bringing them up. They are perfect examples of a straw men. Used by you to smack down and prove your point. There isn't one politian I know of that never says, "my critics..." or "some think that..." Each side tries to use language to influence. You have just tried to do so as well.

          Report Abuse
          • Author by nerzog (March 21, 2006 3:43 pm ET)
               

            But the Straw Man Fallacy is by its nature dishonest. In the article above, it is pointed out that Bush is misrepresenting the positions of others (i.e. lying)...about what? The Iraq War. My Clinton example was a simple analogy, not a Straw Man, unless you can quote for me some Republicans who dismissed his statements as "just politics."

            Try again.

            Report Abuse
            • Author by Con Man (March 21, 2006 3:56 pm ET)
                 

              You created a weakened version of my comments (that everything said is a straw man... therefore Con Man must believe Clinton's finger wag was "just politics" too, right.) and knocked it down. But everyone knows that position is indefensible. I didn't say, "all politicians use straw men all the time", I said, "all politicians use straw men". Straw men, and rhetoric in general, are used by all politicians. Not necessarily all the time...

              Report Abuse
              • Author by nerzog (March 21, 2006 4:04 pm ET)
                   

                I simply asked a rhetorical question, aimed at your apparent defense of Bush's dishonesty as "just politics". This arose as my characterization of Bush's statements as lies, not Straw Men. This is picking nits, of course, but while we're doing so, it only takes one exception to disprove a universal statement. Therefore, your assertion that "all politicians use straw men", while a logical sounding assumption, is impossible to substantiate.

                Report Abuse
              • Author by ChristianDemocrat (March 21, 2006 4:25 pm ET)
                   

                Nor did Nerzog imply you did. But you did suggest that all rhetoric is ok. Nerzog showed you an example of a questionable use of rhetoric.

                Straw men, and rhetoric in general, are used by all politicians.

                While I can't disprove it, I definitely question the veracity of that statement.

                CD

                Report Abuse
                • Author by Con Man (March 21, 2006 4:29 pm ET)
                     

                  Of course what I said is rhetoric. Just about everything said here is rhetoric. What I said is not provable, but until it is disproved, I am going to go on believing it.

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by ga (March 21, 2006 4:31 pm ET)
                       

                    The above is the definition of "Troll."

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by Con Man (March 21, 2006 4:37 pm ET)
                         

                      I haven't said anything trollish. I was simply stating my position. I wasn't trying to elicit some harsh response. We were having a nice civil conversation. Perhaps there was a misunderstanding somewhere. If so, my apologies.

                      Report Abuse
                  • Author by ellie717 (March 21, 2006 4:34 pm ET)
                       

                    Is not a fallacious argument.

                    You need to look up the definition of rhetoric it seems.

                    Rhetoric can be insincere. It can be simple-minded. It can be purposefully confusing and convoluted.

                    It's not lies, or strawmen arguments. That would be a fallacious argument.

                    There's a big difference between the two.

                    You need to stop digging that hole, buddy. Remember the first rule of holes? When you are already in one, stop digging.

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by Con Man (March 21, 2006 4:41 pm ET)
                         

                      "Language that is elaborate, pretentious, insincere, or intellectually vacuous." Like I already stated, I didn't mean "rhetoric" in the Classical sense. Sorry for the confusion.

                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by ellie717 (March 21, 2006 5:21 pm ET)
                           

                        You are the one that dug yourself the hole by distorting the meaning.

                        Rhetoric is not a strawman argument.

                        Fallacious logic is not the same as insincerity or vacuousness.

                        Once again, you are the one that needs to stop digging.

                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by Con Man (March 21, 2006 5:29 pm ET)
                             

                          Okay, I'll break it down for you.

                          Rhetoric="The art or study of using language effectively and persuasively" and "Language that is elaborate, pretentious, insincere, or intellectually vacuous", as well as simply "Verbal communication; discourse." (dictionary.com)

                          Straw man="a rhetorical technique (also classified as a logical fallacy) based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position" including "Invent[ing] a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs that are criticized, and pretend that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical" (wikipedia.org)

                          I think the two are not mutually exclusive. If I lie and say "someone thinks...but they're wrong...", I have created the defininition of a straw man. I have also used "pretentious, insincere" language to make my point, the definition of rhetoric. And since Bush uses them, I think we can assume they are "intellectually vacuous".

                          Quit playing semantics. Thank you for the discussion. Toodles.

                          Report Abuse
          • Author by ChristianDemocrat (March 21, 2006 4:04 pm ET)
               

            Actually, you're the one who first argued that all rhetoric is "all politics" and, therefore, excusable. (Yes, you didn't come out and say it's excusable directly, but the implication of your question is undeniable.) You noted that a straw man is simply one example of rhetoric. By the way, an intentional straw man, where the perpetrator is aware of the opponent's actual position, is also called a lie.

            Nerzog then gave you example of another lie. Would an example of a straw man used by Clinton have been more relevant? Perhaps. But since you seemed to excuse all rhetoric, it's probably good enough.

            CD

            Report Abuse
            • Author by Con Man (March 21, 2006 4:13 pm ET)
                 

              Again, you are putting words in my mouth. I wasn't giving anybody "free passes" since it is all "just politics". Politics suck, really. If we could do away with all politicians and still function fine, I think I would probably be in favor of it. I don't excuse Bush for using straw men. It is a cheap tactic. BUT, everyone does it. That is what the whole politics game is about.

              "Just politics" is not an innocuous thing. "Just politics" can, in some instances, hurt a lot of people. (i.e. the Iraq War) Saying somehting is "just politics" is not giving the action a free pass, I was just staing that it isn't just Bush that uses them. And to try and pretend that it is is disingenuous.

              Report Abuse
              • Author by solon (March 21, 2006 4:23 pm ET)
                   

                The art of rhetoric and debate is an ancient one with strict and well understood rules. It was one of the seven original liberal arts. The strawman argument is in fact known in the formal language of rhetoric and debate as a logical fallacy. Any politician that uses it should be ashamed of himself. It shows a basic insecurity for the power of their legitimate arguments

                Report Abuse
                • Author by Con Man (March 21, 2006 4:27 pm ET)
                     

                  I didn't mean rhetoric in the Classical sense. I meant it more in the "language that is elaborate, pretentious, insincere, or intellectually vacuous" sense. My mistake for any confusion. It's that damn language thing again. :-)

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by ellie717 (March 21, 2006 4:37 pm ET)
                       

                    Insincere and intellectually vacuous are not the same as a lie or a strawman argument or any other logical fallacy.

                    Ready to stop digging?

                    Report Abuse
      • Author by ChristianDemocrat (March 21, 2006 3:38 pm ET)
           

        No, it isn't shocking that people use rhetoric. In fact, I prefer rhetoric to the use of force whenever possible. (Given Bush's self-admitted struggle with the English language, I wonder if he prefers the latter.)

        Straw men arguments, on the other hand, are fallacious - and usually intentionally deceitful - arguments. Anyone who resorts to them - or any other fallacies - should be called on it whenever they do. We need open, honest discussion, not deceit.

        Speaking of which, contrary what you seem to suggest, just because many other people make use of straw men arguments, doesn't make them valid. (Argumentum ad populum.)

        CD

        Report Abuse
        • Author by Con Man (March 21, 2006 3:44 pm ET)
             

          I never said straw men were valid. In fact , I know they are not valid. Just because everyone does something does not make it right. I happen to think ALL politicians are liars... not just Bush and his cronies.

          But for that reason, I feel it's disingenuous to solely pick on Bush for using them. Where is all the furor over the other politicians using them? I don't think this is a "Bush issue", but rather a " issue".

          Report Abuse
          • Author by nerzog (March 21, 2006 3:57 pm ET)
               

            How many of these other politicians have the power to commit our troops to an ill-advised, probably illegal war? Bush is the big Kahuna (sadly), so his lies concerning this issue have a little more impact. That's why he deserves our attention on this matter.

            Report Abuse
            • Author by Con Man (March 21, 2006 4:02 pm ET)
                 

              But then I want this kind of attention when the next President rolls around. And the next, and the next... Examining the President is to be encouraged. Singling one President out of many is not.

              Report Abuse
              • Author by nerzog (March 21, 2006 4:05 pm ET)
                   

                Tell that to the Republican Congress.

                Report Abuse
              • Author by ga (March 21, 2006 4:12 pm ET)
                   

                But then I want this kind of attention when the next President rolls around. And the next, and the next... Examining the President is to be encouraged. Singling one President out of many is not.

                You are saying that they are all the same. Which is flat out wrong. Absolutely wrong.

                Not all Presidents are liars of the same scale. Clinton lied about a blowjob. Bush lied about threats to national security.

                Report Abuse
              • Author by deaddogtanner (March 21, 2006 4:15 pm ET)
                   

                Con - it seems that this President has gotten a pass by the press throughout his tenure. For you to act as though every President up until Bush has been unaccounable for their lies and misdirection is yet another bit of rhetorical legerdemain.

                Report Abuse
              • Author by ChristianDemocrat (March 21, 2006 4:38 pm ET)
                   

                Do you think Bush is the only president to get "this kind of attention"? Clinton got it (see above example), Bush 41 got it, Reagan got it, Carter got it, Ford got it, Nixon (definitely) got it...shall I continue? They should especially get it when lives are at stake.

                No excuses, no exceptions...get it?

                CD

                Report Abuse
          • Author by ga (March 21, 2006 4:04 pm ET)
               

            I happen to think ALL politicians are liars... not just Bush and his cronies. ... But for that reason, I feel it's disingenuous to solely pick on Bush for using them.

            And by making that particular argument -- many "Con Men" here do it -- you are trying to dismiss the argument (that the Bush Administration lied) entirely by saying that everybody does it so it doesn't not matter, and so let's just forget about it.

            You are driving a wedge into the discussion.

            The Bush Administration has been the worst bunch of caught on video liars in modern history. And you, by your fallacious argument are defending them.

            Democrats and Liberal pubdits may be boobs and wishy-washy elites, but they are hardly as deceitful as Rebuplicans and Conservative pundits.

            Report Abuse
      • Author by liberal_founders (March 21, 2006 4:14 pm ET)
           

        And that fallacy would be? Times up. Answer: Two wrongs make a right. The Reich-wings favorite. Anyone want to bet that shrub can't even pronoun fallacy. But hey, Clinton did it, so Con Man is kool wit it.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by Con Man (March 21, 2006 4:21 pm ET)
             

          All these cuties flirting, trying to talk with me. But back to the point. See what I wrote March 21, 2006 04:13:50 PM to see why this comment doesn't make sense either. If you can't find it, I'll summarise: "Just politics" is not a free pass.

          Report Abuse
          • Author by ga (March 21, 2006 4:27 pm ET)
               

            "Just politics" is not a free pass.

            But you have been arguing "they all do it" as a free pass.

            You have been saying it is "all politics" and that it does not matter that Bush lied.

            You are circular in your (il)logic.

            Report Abuse
            • Author by Con Man (March 21, 2006 4:32 pm ET)
                 

              Have you even read what I have been writing? I never said it was okay for Bush to be using straw men. How is my (il)logic circular? I don't think it's okay for anyone to be using straw men. That's not circular, that's consistency.

              Report Abuse
              • Author by nerzog (March 21, 2006 4:45 pm ET)
                   

                Why not just say so?

                Report Abuse
              • Author by ChristianDemocrat (March 21, 2006 4:55 pm ET)
                   

                ...but we shouldn't do anything about it? Or should we do something about it?

                CD

                Report Abuse
                • Author by Con Man (March 21, 2006 5:06 pm ET)
                     

                  If we could do something about it, I would be in support of it 100 percent. But how do we go about changing it? As I see it the whole politics game is broken right now. In order to succeed, one needs to use these crappy arguments. If you don't, you can't succeed. That's why real "straight-shooters" never get elected. Revolution?

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by ellie717 (March 21, 2006 5:31 pm ET)
                       

                    It loses its power.

                    Just like when a troll is pointed out, they run away and hide.

                    Just like when Bush was allowed to lie and distort, without being called out on those distortions by the MSM, Americans believed his perspective. Now that his distortions are not going unchallenged, the American people support him much less, and do not trust his perspective.

                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by Scotty Johnson Sr. (March 21, 2006 5:38 pm ET)
                       

                    You exhibit a problem that a lot of the "moderate" cons on here have. You try to play both sides. You want to appear reasonable, yet you use an assortment of sublime subterfuge techniques to try and dismiss the argument at hand. By trying to brush off the Bush lies as political business as usual, you try to undermine our ability to hold this administration's feet to the fire. It's a subtle attempt, but none the less transparent. If you can't adequately defend a con, why don't you just recuse yourself from the conversation? Attempting this "but they all do it" defense is clearly beneath you.

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by nerzog (March 21, 2006 5:45 pm ET)
                         

                      We're wasting all this time arguing semantics, but the point remains, Puddinhead has been given a relatively easy ride by the press, and it's time for them to start doing their job. With any luck, they'll devour him.

                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by wanderwoman (March 21, 2006 6:38 pm ET)
                           

                        The main problem, and the reason MMFA exists, is not because politicians use dishonest tactics but because the media let them get away with it and even cheer them on. Naturally, trolls want to lead the discussion into muddier areas. Thanks for getting back to the point of this MMFA post.

                        Report Abuse
      • Author by ellie717 (March 21, 2006 4:30 pm ET)
           

        You think we should excuse a President for relying on them?

        You think we should ignore the fact that the MSM has failed to point out his strawmen arguments, and we should be content with a halfassed job of monitoring the President by the press?

        You think we should condone this behavior because it's just politics, after all?

        I don't.

        Lives are being lost every day in Iraq because he got away with these kinds of fallacious arguments.

        Report Abuse
      • Author by raskol77 (March 21, 2006 8:09 pm ET)
           

        A straw man argument does not fit the definition of rhetoric in any way. Euphemistic rhetoric is elaborate and insincere. But let's not forget that rhetoric is also the art of speaking effectively and persuasively. How exactly is Bush using rhetoric here?

        And as for "every politician does it", not every politician uses what you consider "rhetoric" to mislead their nation into war and dismiss their critics as unpatriotic.

        You understand neither rhetoric nor logic.

        Report Abuse
    • Author by phreak (March 21, 2006 3:08 pm ET)
         

      I'm glad to see the AP putting this story out. Bush is a liar, always has been. Unfortunately, his cult will probably just downplay this as more rantings from the "Bush lied" crowd.

      And MMFA did a great job of pointing out the APs duplicity in enabling him to get away with lying for so many years.

      I think the MSM may finally start to challenge Bush. It's amazing what 34% approval ratings will do.

      Report Abuse
    • Author by dougsomers (March 21, 2006 3:35 pm ET)
         

      FNC has been using the "some people" and "sources say" rhetoric for years, and it works with their audience. It is not surprising that Bush has picked up on it.

      Report Abuse
    • Author by brady (March 21, 2006 3:46 pm ET)
         

      A growing number say the president is a liar, habitually distorts truths, twists facts and has no sense of reality. Some also say the media tends to be lazy, kissing up to those in charge. There are those who say both the media and the republican congress serve as a body of enablers in fear of being shunted and cast aside by a vengeful administration.

      It's clear the administration and the republican congress will play out their roles in this two-term farce. It's time for the media to get back to their role as watchdogs and remember how to growl, bark, bite and snap back when challenged by anyone posing a threat to honest and factual journalistic standards.

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    • Author by tex (March 21, 2006 3:46 pm ET)
         

      Bush fabricates: " I did notice that nobody from the Democrat Party has actually stood up and called for getting rid of the terrorist surveillance program. You know, if that's what they believe, if people in the party believe that, then they ought to stand up and say it. They ought to stand up and say the tools we're using to protect the American people shouldn't be used. They ought to take their message to the people and say, vote for me, I promise we're not going to have a terrorist surveillance program. That's what they ought to be doing. That's part of what is an open and honest debate."

      THE TRUTH: What a Democrat would say is that ALL TOOLS should be used, but WITHIN THE LAW.

      Bush conveniently leaves out that "following the law" part ... as if it has no importance. As if the CONSTITUTION ITSELF has no importance.

      As if it's either how Bush does it -- illegally -- or the only other alternative is to have NO program at ALL.

      Oh, and this absolute deception of following this pile of fabricated horse manure with the galling "open and honest debate" comment. This man has no shame.

      Thank God some in the media are finally calling him on it ... his dishonesty, his inability to defend himself without manufacturing a false opposition point in order to justify his indefensible policy.

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      • Author by deaddogtanner (March 21, 2006 4:24 pm ET)
           

        That is right up there with when Bush incessantly defends his illegal acts by contending that his job is to "protect the American people" when it is actually to uphold the Constitution.

        It's even in the oath of office: "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

        Funny - I expect that the Chimp wouldn't know his own job, but it's disappointing that I've never seen a reporter call him on this distinction either.

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      • Author by ellie717 (March 21, 2006 4:27 pm ET)
           

        After being asked a question related to Saddam while Bush was in Ohio, Bush answered thusly

        "When he didn't disclose, and when he didn't disarm, and when he deceived inspectors, it sent a very disconcerting message to me, whose job it is to protect the American people and to take threats before they fully materialize. My view is, he was given the choice of whether or not he would face reprisal. It was his decision to make. And so he chose to not disclose, not disarm, as far as everybody was concerned."

        I don't know if this exactly fits the mold of a strawman argument, but it's close. He is saying that Saddam behaved in a certain way and so he, Bush, was forced to behave in a certain way. Except the facts do not support his statements. In the leadup to the war, Saddam did not deceive the inspectors, and he faced the music and admitted he had no WMD's, and since he had no WMD's he shouldn't have been expected to get rid of any WMD's. He can't get rid of what he doesn't have, right?

        So Bush alleges that Saddam was asking for it because of his behavior, but the behavior Bush alleges happened didn't really happen!

        I wish that this was not a clear pattern from this man and this administration, but it is.

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        • Author by ChristianDemocrat (March 21, 2006 5:07 pm ET)
             

          ...just a false premise or, simply put in this case, a lie.

          (Ok, ok - can I prove that Bush lied? No. But I definitely believe he was hell bent on invading, choosing either to lie, ignore facts or not read the memo.)

          CD

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          • Author by tex (March 21, 2006 6:56 pm ET)
               

            On the topic of inspectors, Bush has several times claimed that the war was necessary because Saddam refused to admit the inspectors.

            This is a damned lie.

            The TRUTH is, in order to invade, the inspectors who were on the job and on the ground in Iraq had to be evacuated.

            Further, Bush LIES when he says he tried "every avenue" of diplomacy, and to enforce the UN requirements. Having the inspectors back on the job DID satisfy the UN requirements, and was an avenue which did not involve war and massive death.

            Bush lies, and he needlessly expends (kills) our brave children serving their country. In order to NOT admit his errors, incompetence, and misjudgements, our soldiers must CONTINUE dying ... not to remove Saddam, not to have elections in Iraq, not to have an Iraqi Constitution -- all that is DONE. Each new death is only to allowBush to keep from admitting his mistakes. As long as our soldiers are dying, Bush just claims that "VICTORY" is just down the road.

            NEW INFO: Now Bush claims that SOME OTHER president will have to withdraw our troops. He's keeping them there for the duration of his term. Chilling. Horrifying. Evil.

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    • Author by olivelawyers (March 21, 2006 4:26 pm ET)
         

      Our local super conservative newspaper actually had a front page article from the A.P. to which the editor had affixed a headline with a negative connation to it: "Bush gives two minutes speech in support of three-year war." Showed it to my spouse at the time with wide eyes - a month ago the same article might not have appeared at all, certainly no earlier than page 12 and with an innocuous lead such as "Bush Addresses War Issues with Press." My feeling is that the press is like a bunch of jackals tearing at the heels of a beast wounded by a greater animal. Here, Bush the Beast has been torn open by an angered public and the carrion are now lapping up his blood. Better late than never? I don't think so. Too little, too late is more like it.

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    • Author by left of center (March 21, 2006 4:51 pm ET)
         

      Olivelawyers, you're right on the money. Now that we have $30K in government debt for every man, woman, and child in this country, how long will it take to recover from the debt? Does anyone want to know what just the INTEREST for 1YEAR on 9 TRILLION DOLLARS is? Let's just say that the govt gets better than mortgage rates - let's say we're paying, oh, 4%? (HIGHLY optimistic) - that's 360 BILLION a year in just interest, never mind the principal. The true debt service is probably much higher, depending upon long term vs. short term notes, and maturity of items such as bonds. Our annual proposed budget for '06 is 1.7TRILLION. So, at LEAST 20% of our federal tax revenues are paying debt, and we're going even deeper.

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    • Author by ufleirx (March 21, 2006 5:17 pm ET)
         

      like the guy from the "Dead Zone" to denounce the evil politician. The whole time going who us? After years of helping to install a functional idiot as President and apologize for him for 5 years, now they step up to the the plate. Good job AP.

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    • Author by temphandle retrievals90germanic (March 22, 2006 3:02 pm ET)
         

      Here is another example of Bush's 'straw-man" approach. It is not suprising that Russert (I think the guy actually has some sort of developmental disability) didn't ask Bush exactly who was "denigrating the National Guard," or point out the difference between the Guard during Vietnam being a haven for legal draft dodgers, as opposed to the Guard in Iraq being "stop-lossed" and having their tours extended for years. ......................................................................

      From Meet the Press, 2/8/2004

      MR. RUSSERT: And we are back in the Oval Office talking to the President of the United States.

      Mr. President, this campaign is fully engaged. The chairman of the Democratic National Committee, Terence McAuliffe, said this last week: "I look forward to that debate when John Kerry, a war hero with a chest full of medals, is standing next to George Bush, a man who was AWOL in the Alabama National Guard. He didn't show up when he should have showed up..."

      PRES. BUSH: Yeah.

      MR. RUSSERT: How do you respond?

      PRES. BUSH: Political season is here. I was--I served in the National Guard. I flew F-102 aircraft. I got an honorable discharge. I've heard this--I've heard this ever since I started running for office. I--I put in my time, proudly so.

      I would be careful to not denigrate the Guard. It's fine to go after me, which I expect the other side will do. I wouldn't denigrate service to the Guard, though, and the reason I wouldn't, is because there are a lot of really fine people who have served in the National Guard and who are serving in the National Guard today in Iraq.

      MR. RUSSERT: The Boston Globe and the Associated Press have gone through some of the records and said there's no evidence that you reported to duty in Alabama during the summer and fall of 1972.

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    • Author by lamberthml5354 (March 22, 2006 4:13 pm ET)
         

      Yes.tex! I was hoping some journalist would point out Bush's saying if someone didn't like FISA, she should say so, was a strawman.I want JOHN CONYERS to wrap himself around Bush so much . We just have to have a democratic House!Of course,Sconyers won't be some 2-bit investigator like that oath that went after Pres.Clinton: he'll have facts: breaking FISA. [ oaf]

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    • Author by ChristianDemocrat (March 23, 2006 11:16 am ET)
         

      Actually, fallacies are a form of rhetoric too, though logically invalid one. Lies are a form of rhetoric, though false. Rhetoric has several definitions, in addition to the one offered but Con Man, which give the term a very broad meaning of, though most frequently referring to the use of language to persuade.

      On a side note, I'm a strong supporter of the study of rhetoric, and especially formal and informal fallacies, earlier in school as a way to develop critical thinking skills. In fact, I'd place it third in importance to reading/writing and basic math. I see no reason it couldn't be introduced in high school, but rarely is.

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