Flawed Wash. Post/ABC News poll suggested no link between NSA data collection and warrantless spying -- despite Post's own contrary report
SUMMARY: A Washington Post/ABC News poll on the National Security Agency program to collect phone call records of tens of millions of United States residents found that 63 percent of respondents found the program acceptable. The poll question claimed that the NSA is not "listening to or recording the conversations" captured by the data collection program, but a Post article reported that the program is related to NSA's warrantless domestic eavesdropping program.
A Washington Post/ABC News poll on the National Security Agency (NSA) program to collect phone call records of tens of millions of United States residents -- conducted on May 11, the same day the program was first publicly disclosed -- asked respondents: "It's been reported that the National Security Agency has been collecting the phone call records of tens of millions of Americans. It then analyzes calling patterns in an effort to identify possible terrorism suspects, without listening to or recording the conversations. Would you consider this an acceptable or unacceptable way for the federal government to investigate terrorism? Do you feel that way strongly or somewhat?" According to the poll, 63 percent of respondents found the program acceptable.
However, the poll question affirmatively claimed that the NSA is not "listening to or recording the conversations" captured by the data collection program. This statement suggests -- falsely, according to the Post itself -- that the data collection program is separate from the NSA's warrantless domestic eavesdropping program, first publicly revealed by The New York Times in December 2005. In fact, according to a May 12 Post article, the two programs are directly linked: "Government access to call records is related to the previously disclosed eavesdropping program, sources said, because it helps the NSA choose its targets for listening. The mathematical techniques known as 'link analysis' and 'pattern analysis,' they said, give grounds for suspicion that can result in further investigation." In other words, according to The Washington Post itself -- and contrary to the poll question -- the NSA might well be "listening to or recording the conversations" of at least some Americans as a direct result of its analysis of the phone record data the NSA is collecting.
Moreover, as Media Matters for America has noted, the Post reported on February 5 that according to "current and former government officials and private-sector sources," intelligence officers used the program to eavesdrop "on thousands of Americans in overseas calls" but "dismissed nearly all of them as potential suspects after hearing nothing pertinent to a terrorist threat."
Both the Post and ABC News posted the results of the poll online (here and here, respectively). A May 12 ABC News online article on the poll reported that it lends "support to the administration's defense of its anti-terrorism intelligence efforts," and the May 12 edition of ABC News' online political newsletter, The Note, proclaimed:
Senators [Arlen] Specter [R-PA] and [Olympia] Snowe [R-ME], Sunday morning pundits, reporters from the Nation's Newspaper and the nation's newspapers, and all MOCs [members of Congress] with "(D)"s after their names want to know more about the domestic telephone record harvesting that the Bush Administration apparently has engaged in.
The American people and [White House press secretary] Tony Snow, however, just might know as much as they want to know about it.
On the May 12 edition of MSNBC News Live, Washington Post polling director Richard Morin, when asked to compare the results of this poll to polling conducted in December 2005 on the domestic surveillance program, responded:
MORIN: Actually, these are a little more positive in favor of the program than the survey we first did on the NSA eavesdropping investigation. Americans seem to be more willing to accept this because it doesn't involve people reading their e-mails or listening in to their telephone calls. Just collecting their phone records.
this is about a weak an item as mmfa has posted in awhile. of course the two are related. where is the suggestion they are not? the poll is asking about obtaining phone records and then linking them to calls overseas and domestically through a hub and spoke link to analyze a possible terrorist threat. perfectly legal. there is no eavesdropping on calls between me and my grandmother in this country or anything of the sort. scare tactic that is fruitless. the public is not afraid of this program and the majority appear to be behind it.
Because there is no evidence whatsoever that these wiretaps were restricted to just calls to foreign countries.
In fact the EFF, which is currently battling the Administration to keep its lawsuit alive, the one that insists we are told what the phone companies involved have allowed the NSA to do, has information that has been successfully restrained that proves that a dragnet of millions of callers were wiretapped, not just a few hundred or thousand to overseas destinations.
Senator Arlene Spector (R) is threatening to pull the funding for these efforts because the Administrations continual attacks on anyone seeking to find out exactly what they are doing is starting to alarm him.
He's even gone as far to say that there is no doubt the wiretapping in question is in violation of FISA, but then mitigated that by suggesting the President may have the authority to overule FISA if he can prove there is sufficient reason to do so.
However he continues that because of situations such as the NSA's deliberate blocking of a Justice Department investigation into this issue, the Administration's strong arm tactics against others that are trying to reveal details of their actions, he has no way of knowing exactly what the Administration and the NSA is up to.
It is fairly safe to assume that if "there was nothing to hide, the ADMINISTRATION would have nothing to fear". In other words when we do finally find out what Bush and his cronies have authorized, we will be damm sure he has gone so far beyond the actions that got Nixon impeached, that criminal charges should be brought against all those involved, including the owners of telecomms companies that have given up our call records, assisted with wire taps without any sort of court order authorizing such action.
"Government access to call records is related to the previously disclosed eavesdropping program, sources said, because it helps the NSA choose its targets for listening. The mathematical techniques known as 'link analysis' and 'pattern analysis,' they said, give grounds for suspicion that can result in further investigation." In other words, according to The Washington Post itself -- and contrary to the poll question -- the NSA might well be "listening to or recording the conversations" of at least some Americans as a direct result of its analysis of the phone record data the NSA is collecting.
if you think the nsa has any interest or time to listen to your personal phone calls, or mine for that matter. well, so be it if that's what you think. i think you know that's not the case but this is an issue you think will resonate with the american public as some civil rights violation. fact is, the public's common sense tells them that this is a terrorist fighting tool unlike any we have faced. it should operate within the law. but all this left liberal paranoia and trumped up fear mongering will get you nowhere, it certainly hasn't yet.
I have moved 3 times in last 4 years bc my wife is a medical resident. She has good friends that are from middle east, outstanding people all of them. They came here to escape the harshness of ME and receive medical training. I call NY and LA frequently bc of family there. Did I fall into a statistical category to be monitored? Who the hell knows? Are you a mathmatical statistician? The program is inefficient and a waste of billions of dollars and tens of thousands of man hours. THe FBI investigated suspicious leads in the previous overseas eavesdropping program. Not a single meaningful lead as the NYT and Wash post reported. Wont read that at the drudge report though. It wasted lots of man hours though. THis administration has repeatedly lied about the depth and scope of the program. Its f***ing illegal. Is this Stalinist Russia or America. Here is a republican future talking point for you. American individualism is strongest when we obey.
i have a good friend who is from iran and has many family members there and throughout the middle east. she calls and receives many phone calls from them often. there is no reason to investigate her, she is not worried in the least. it has much to do with terrorist cells and suspected operatives in this country.
That's it. Word of the day.
Pathetic.
Are you capable of understanding that the Stalinist govennment in Washington, whether your friend in Iran is offended by it or not notwithstanding, even has the audacity to monitor their calls?
And, as others have added, it's costing a fortune--while tax cuts are given to the wealthy. But that's an aside.
It's a question of the government's right to do so. Do you understand now?
I am not surprised your Iranian friend is as clueless as you. Like draws like.
What about investigative journalists the administration thinks unfriendly? What about political enemies? That rationale is just so weak.
but it is obvious that it isn't!
... you seem to trust these untrustworthy Bush criminals. If you honestly believe that the wiretapping biz is all about 'terrorist surveillance'... you're kidding yourself. You seem to enjoy cheering for the necons, however. So, not unexpected.
...There are rules that need to be followed. We've seen Bush and his cadre summarily dismiss law after law after law... all in the name of 'fighting terror'. This is the easiest way for these jokers to continue to break the law and shred the constitution. You feel safer? I don't.
you call them criminals, i've called them incompetent. i want all measures legally used to stop another attack. this doesn't scare me, even if bush is incompetent on many things, iraq, immigration, spending.
Aren't you one of these conservatives who stands on their own, doesn't need any help, I pull myself up by my own boot straps kind of rugged people who doesn't believe in government?
What are you so afraid of?
It's amazing how many conservatives since 9/11 have turned into fearful, cowering pools of sweat who would sell their civil liberties for the facade of safety.
Interesting.
the government is here to protect it's citizens against domestic and foreign enemies. that's their job. that's like saying if you want police and firefighters then you must be weak and scared all the time. how ridiculous.
It is not an analogy it is an observation of conservative thought and your absurd posts on MMFA.
... Your logic is based upon one important point -- you believe (and I have to think it's because these are Republicans)... you believe these CRIMINALS are doing anything in our best interests.
Yes, I say criminals because it has been shown again and again and again that Bush and his cadre just decide not to follow law = breaking the law = criminal. This administration has show us that they cannot do anything without lining their own pockets, packing their posts with cronies, and screwing the average american citizens. Now how can one possibly TRUST people like that -- that is, unless of course, you are a shameless apologist. You get my point.
Apologist yes.
and you know it. So what makes it okay, again? Security? Protecting our freedoms by undermining them? And exactly how many terrorists have they captured so far using this method?
the means that are being used are not LEGAL, except in George's "Mind".
is that you are being lied to. the poll question was loaded - and did not contain the necessary information.
What wasn't mentioned is that Qwest successfully denied NSA requests for information because the NSA did not go to the FISA court, NSA did not go to FISA because they said FISA wouldn't approve. Why wouldn't FISA approve of this program, or of the wiretapping program? Because the stated intention "to catch terrorists" is NOT the purpose of these programs! If it was, FISA would approve them both, no question. Stop being sheepish and look into these issues a little closer people - don't just hand over your civil liberties because you're afraid of the boogey man.
... about how well the Bush Administration has obscured the real issues SO FAR.
These were ordinary people polled, so there aren't many Constitutional Scholars or legal experts among them. The question, then, is based on them having virtually NO information on which to base their answer.
How about, "Do you think the police should arrest criminals?" A big majority would, of course, answer YES.
If the question was, "Should the police be allowed to shoot a citizen, even if there is no evidence a crime has been committed?" The answer would be much different. It would be a resounding NO!
The FACT is, NOBODY in the civilian population has any idea WHAT is involved in this Administration's surveillance efforts. Any 'assurance' implied by the question -- i.e. how the information might or might not be used -- is deceptive speculation based on no information ... deceptive because it IMPLIES an innocuous situation that cannot possibly exist.
The PREMISE of the question is actually ludicrous. It suggests that the NSA is wasting millions of dollars and great technology to illegally record conversations without a warrant in violation of the Constitution, but it's OK because THEY WON'T BE LISTENING TO THE INFORMATION. God God! They why are they wasting their time and our money???!!!???! The answer is, they are LYING when they say this information will not be used. And any poll question based on their LIE of professed innocence is worthless.
Yet, the Media, on behalf of the Administration, wishes to give the impression that the Public has GIVEN THEIR PERMISSION to the government to go ahead and spy illegally on us. "The POLL says nobody cares!" says the media. This is misinformation at its most diabolical.
nobody in the civilian population with the possible excepion of YOU? face it, you don't like the results of this poll so you say "well, the american people are just clueless as to what's going on". yet somehow, you and your "one conspiracy theory after another" mentality seems to be in the know. sell it down the street. nobody, except your fellow far liberal posters here, buy it.
To a blatant apologist, everyone here is a "far liberal"
That Mr. or Ms. Right On is supporting this while conservatives like Newt Gingrich and Joe Scarborough are saying things like "can't defend the indefensible" and "be very, very afraid."
Even the most ardent ideologists aren't happy about this but I guess some "true believers" just can't let go.
Cognitive dissonance: The theory of cognitive dissonance holds that contradicting cognitions serve as a driving force that compels the mind to acquire or invent new thoughts or beliefs, or to modify existing beliefs, so as to reduce the amount of dissonance (conflict) between cognitions.
We should all be very afraid when you have folks on both sides of the table agreeing -- that's far-left and far-right. Ooo-ooo... that's what we should really be afraid of.
You mean nobody but the meager 29% are buying it!
Qwest attorneys now say that turning over our phone numbers violates the privacy provisions of the Telecommunications Act of 1996. I think they have a point. See the provisions here:
[link to thomas.loc.gov]
It's always interesting to read the tortured logic of the Bush apologists and misinformation specialists (kind of hard to tell the amateurs from the pros these days). I seem to remember these same wingnuts screaming during the 90's about their right to privacy and yapping all about how if the loony liberals were given enough rope we'd create a police state and there'd be black helicopters full of PC police and gun collectors flying over all their homes just waiting for the right moment to swoop down and take everything they value away.
Now we have a government that really IS creating a police state, herding protestors into "free speech zones", keeping records on all of our phone calls and snooping on whatever calls happen to fit their mathematical formula (and that's assuming they're not using the info in a more Nixonian manner - how would we ever know). And these same fools, because it's THEIR guys running the show, suddenly find these things acceptable. Hey, just cloak it all in the guise of protecting us from terrorists and they'll buy into anything!! Right on!
You know what, Right On? In 1930's Germany, they also had a Terrorist Surveillance Program that involved keeping records of every German citizen. And back then it was another American company that provided the technology - IBM. Every German's records were stored on punchcards. I'm sure that the Nazi party, just like the GOP, promised the citizens that they were only using it to find the bad guys too.
And how convenient it must have been to have all those records of innocent people when the definition of "bad guys" shifted to include Jews, gays, Pols, and Hitler's political enemies. I'll betya the whole time that Hitler was tracking all of those "bad guys" he was telling "good germans" like yourself the exact same cock and bull that you're now telling us - oh, don't worry, you can trust the president not to ever misuse this information. Why? Because he said so? Because he's a Christian man? or just because?
You see, our constitution and laws were designed to protect us from ever having to reach a point where the only option we had was to trust in the goodness of our elected officials. That's what the 4th ammendment of the constitution is all about. And that's what FISA is all about. And that's what our telecommunications laws are all about.
The records of who I called, when I called them and how long I talked to them are every bit as private and protected as the contents of those calls. And I don't care whose guy is president. If he can't find probable cause and gain a warrant to obtain those records, he has no right to them - NONE.
I am NOT willing to give up my liberties for some fantasy of being made safer. And I'll be damned if you're going to give them up for me.
I'll leave you with a rhetorical question to chew on, Wrong On - Richard Nixon was obtaining personal records of innocent people behind their backs and spying on them. If he had called it a "Communist Information System", would you have given him your unconditional trust as you obviously have Bush? Remember that at the time Nixon was doing all that underhanded stuff, we didn't know it. The only way we ever found out was after the fact through very serious investigations. How can you be so sure that we're not going to eventually find out the exact same things about Bush's use of our files?
The answer to that question is easy for anyone whose allegiance is to country before government/party.
Thanks for your comments. I concur.
And I wonder, if "Right On's" real name Carl Rove??
The real story here is that this "push poll" is the latest BLATANT LYING AND SHILLING for BushCo by the WaPo.
THE POLL IS BOGUS!!! The questions were crafted to skew results.
More of the BIG LIE from BushCo's lap dogs at the WaPo.
Tell everyone you know! Email this to everyone on your email list today!
...until the Democrats control the executive branch. Our country's founders believed that secret, unchecked power leads to abuse (see Bill of Rights), but they could not possibly have anticipated that the future would provide us with the Ethical, Moral, Principled, Proper, Righteous, and Completely Virtuous Republicans who would never abuse power. We'll have to wait until 2008 to worry about this kind of stuff.
MMFA is correct. Framing the poll question to obfuscate the potential power of the program is misleading. Doing so when their own reporting recognizes the potential scope of the program is negligent at least, and partisan or propagandistic at worst.