Dobson compared Federal Marriage Amendment to civil rights bills and slave liberation
SUMMARY: On the Focus on the Family radio show, FOF CEO James Dobson and president Jim Daly lambasted opponents of a constitutional amendment to ban same-sex marriage, comparing the amendment to civil rights legislation and the abolitionists' campaign to end slavery, and predicting that if it failed, "civilization will go down."
On the June 7 edition of the Focus on the Family radio show, Focus on the Family founder and CEO James Dobson and president Jim Daly lambasted opponents of a constitutional amendment to ban same-sex marriage. Dobson compared the same-sex marriage ban to civil rights legislation and the abolitionists' campaign to end slavery. Daly called the ban "more important than the war, more important than sickness," and predicted that if it failed, "civilization will go down."
Daly played an audio clip of Sen. Joseph R. Biden Jr. (D-DE) discussing his opposition to the Marriage Protection Amendment:
BIDEN: You know, think about this -- the world's going to Hades in a handbasket; we are desperately concerned about the circumstance relating to avian flu, we don't have enough vaccines, we don't have enough police officers, and we're going to debate the next three weeks, I'm told, gay marriage, a flag amendment, and God only knows what else. I can't believe the American people can't see through this. We already have a law -- the Defense of Marriage Act -- we've all voted -- not that I voted, but other said, "Look, marriage is between a man and a woman, and states must respect that." Nobody's violated that law, there's been no challenge to that law. Why do we need a constitutional amendment?
Dobson and Daly responded:
DOBSON: There it is again, Jim. It's the same thought: "There's no threat, there's no challenge." And it's not true!
DALY: Politicians and the press are obviously trying to minimize what the American people think on this topic. They don't want us to think that the most important institution, more important than the war, more important than sickness -- it is marriage folks. If this goes, civilization goes down.
Later in the program, Dobson discussed a Focus on the Family ad campaign targeting senators in swing states who oppose the same-sex marriage ban, comparing it to the campaigns to pass civil-rights laws and ban slavery in the United Kingdom:
DOBSON: We're going to continue to run these ads as long as there is money to do them. And we're not going to back off. If we lose, we're going to stay right in there. I mean, how long did it take to get the civil rights legislation passed? It took years and years and years. How long did it take for [evangelical slavery opponent William] Wilberforce in the U.K. to get slavery outlawed? We're not going to give up. And we're not going to give up with the unborn child. We will be there. And I'll tell you, with my last few breaths on this Earth, the first thing I want to do is tell my precious wife Shirley how much I love her, and my children, and I will have grandchildren by then -- and my daughter-in-law Laura; I'll tell them how much I love them. Then, I hope to say, "Save the institution of the family -- it's that important."
Come back and join rational people...
But, it's got nothing to do with gays. I think the Christo-fascist Right Wing might have an awful lot to do with that.
So depriving people of rights is the moral equivalent of giving them rights?
"Daly called the ban "more important than the war, more important than sickness," and predicted that if it failed, "civilization will go down."
Hmmmm... ancient Greece, the cradle of western civilization and democracy, nope, no homosexuality there.
I am throughly disgusted by people like this claiming to speak for God. For me and my beliefs God doesn't make mistakes, and he made everyone on this earth including gay people and those that do not happen to agree with our current president.
But where is marriage going to 'go' if gays can do it too?
Straight people will continue to marry straight people.
Gay people who are 'in the closet' will continue to marry straight people.
Gay people who are 'out of the closet' will marry gay people.
And civilization will go, uh...down?
What does this "decline of civilization" mean? That straight people won't have babies anymore?
I just don't get it. My head hurts.
Is this turning into the religious right's version of global warming?
This demonstrates perfectly the conservative view of freedom. It is all a zero-sum game to them.
If a gay person has the freedom to marry, somehow heterosexuals are having their freedom denied.
I don't understand this, but it is really the way they think. Dobson muttles the issue by mentioning the Civil Rights era in which regressives (his main audience) felt the exact same way about the increase of black freedom and particularly inter-racial marriage.
I can't see how expanding freedom for others hurts my own marriage.
I also cannot see how it is in the state's interest to discourage monogamy of any kind between consentual adults for that matter. Would the state prefer homosexual promiscuity? How on Earth does that benefit the state?
Maybe that is a strawman. Dobson seems to think that if gays can't get married, they just won't have sex at all. Then the world will be a perfect place again with rainbows and unicorns...
Is that these knuckle-draggers consider bigotry a virtue, and imposing that bigotry on the rest of us is, in their view, an inalienable right.
with my last few breaths on this Earth, the first thing I want to do is tell my precious wife Shirley how much I love her, and my children, and I will have grandchildren by then -- and my daughter-in-law Laura; I'll tell them how much I love them. Then, I hope to saaaaayyy...
[singing]
Dobson: I'm gay!
Shirley: He's gay!
Dobson: I'm gay!
Laura: He's gay!
Dobson: I'm gay!
Ann Coulter: He's gay!
Jim Daly: He's gay!
Laura: He's gay!
Pat Robertson: Did you hear the news? He's gay!
Dobson: I used to be straight, and now I'm gay, I think the drug made me that way!
All: He's gay! He's gay! He's gay!
Dobson: I'm gaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!
Nice... very nice.
"You know, think about this -- the world's going to Hades in a handbasket"
How shamelessly alarmist. You ask the left this question, they'll blame the right (at least I do,) and if you ask the right, they'll blame the left.
So the one problem we can all agree on is that we can't agree on anything. What does marriage have to do with this?
Even I can't defend those remarks.
However, I will say this.
I can't stand it when people on the Left or Right compare what gays are going through with the Civil Rights Movement. My people died and shed blood for the basic rights all Americans should enjoy without race being a factor.
The problem with the ideal of "gay rights" is that these people want to be classified as a protected minority and have special treatment simple because of who they are sexually attracted to.
Gay men can't marry men. Well news flash!! Straight men can't marry men either. So where is the discrimination? Being gay is a behavior, not a race of people.
While I agree it's obtuse to draw parallels between the two movements, I still think you're missing the point here.
"Gay men can't marry men. Well news flash!! Straight men can't marry men either. So where is the discrimination?" The discrimination is that, in defining the gender of the parties invovled as the basis for a legitimate marriage, you're putting a restriction on the institution that only affects homosexuals. They cannot marry the consenting adults they would want to, while heterosexuals can, and that's discrimination.
parralels with the civil rights movement. You say that 'your' people shed blood, but you forget of all the years of prosecution all over the world of gays. In Nazi Germany they were gassed to death or just shot; in western countries individuals or gangs are beating gays to death because they walk hand in hand with their partner; gays are condemned for being unethical, sinfull, dirty; gays have been linked with the HIV/AIDS outbreak; gays have been linked with unchristian and ungodly; gays have been linked to pedophilia, bestiality, rape; there have been accusations of a 'gay' culture and 'gay' agenda; there is a strong pressure from organized anti-gay groups to discriminate gay couples on health benefits; there is pressure not to advertise in gay magazines; there is pressure not to support the gay pride days.
The thing gays want is just be left alone and live their live and make their choices as healthy adults, and be regarded as equal to other Americans, just as you and I. The AA community has suffered unexcusable hurts during colonization and slavery, and fought hard for their rights, which should have been granted to them in the first place, simply because all of us are humans. AA have come a long way since the civil rights movement, and, alas, have still a long way to go before all of society will treat them as equal to whites.
However, that does not excuse denying other groups access to sources and institutions simply because they are not experiencing segregation and other atrocities as AA and native-A did (at least at this moment in time), simply because have sex with someone of the same gender. It is a struggle for all groups that are regarded are strange, queer, unsinful, and 'half human' to overcome the prejudice of the majority and to acquire full rights and freedoms that others enjoy.
Is it therefore permissable if we don't allow Jews to marry Christians? Or Mormons to marry Catholics? All they would have to do is stop their religious behavior.
I'm AA as well and I've had long discussions with other AAs who seem to get upset that "those" people want to have "minority " status. It's a strange argument to me. They are a minority not just in American but in the human race. About 10% of human beings are homosexual. 10% of 100% is a minority. Clearly race and sexual orientation are different animals but bigotry is bigotry, and bigotry left unchecked is ugly and nasty. “These people” as you say if they live their lives honestly ( homosexual) are subject to physical assaults and potential shunning not just from strangers but from their families. Now in the past AAs could be attacked by some virulent bigot simply for having Black skin or being in a place they thought Blacks had no right to be. Blacks were shunned by larger society. Thank God our people had their families for support and they were able to MARRY a partner that they loved and who helped them maneuver a world that wasn't so kind. I don't want to deny my Gay brothers and sisters that. They are as entitled to that as I am.
Lynn,
The early arguments and court decisions against interracial marriage were argued almost exactly the same way most conservatives today argue against gay marriage.
As someone who is in an interracial marriage that would not have been recognized by my state 30 some years ago, I too, believe in equality for my gay brothers and sisters. Denying them their freedom makes all of us less free.
--Washington Post Columnist, Colbert I. KingThe problem with the ideal of "gay rights" is that these people want to be classified as a protected minority and have special treatment simple because of who they are sexually attracted to.
Actually, they just want the same rights as heterosexuals, who currently get special treatment (the right to marry) simply because of who they are sexually attracted to.
I don't know much about Dobson, but this clip can be interpretted in a couple of ways. Have you guys thought that maybe (just maybe) what he means is look at the persistance that it took to get the civil rights act passed and slavery to ended. He could be saying that they need to be just as persistant to get the Federal Marriage Amendment passed?
When I read his comment, it made it seem like he was stone cold racist. But after listening to the clip, I don't think that is what he meant.
his further comment that if they are not successful civilization will end! Dobson is just bashing gays and is comparing his struggle to narrow the 'marriage is a right for all people in the US' with efforts to widen laws for access for AA.
Trust me, he means what it sounds like he means; He thinks Christians are the victims here, because they aren't allowed to codify their bigotry into our Constitution. You'll hear the same rhetoric from these Neanderthals on School Prayer, Evolution, etc. To them, it's all part of the "War on Christians". What a load of crap.
That being said, states have, in several instances, overwhelming passed laws similar to the proposed FMA (the people have spoken) and yet judges have tended to strike down those laws. So, as with Civil Rights legislation, it may be necessary to have a Federal Law to make for uniformity in the country (unless we are willing to let the populace of individual states decide and then live with those decisions).
A law can be struck down by a judge. We need an amendment that puts this issue beyond the reach of a judge.
right now elements within the GOP are making proposals to limit the cases that judges can rule on and thus limit court access for some groups. Still, even with an amendment, the Supreme Court has the last say.
I guarantee you one day in a land far far away (America of the future) there will either be an amendment to the constitution that specifically guarantees the right of gay citizens to participate in any legal arrangement including marriage that any other American citizen has a right to participate in, OR they will use one of the existing amendments to enforce and protect the rights of Gay citizens and all of those state's codified bigoted laws will be rendered null and void. It's probably going to take another 100-150 years. God how long did they debate abolishing slavery and then it took another 100 years to legally abolish the Jim Crow laws that originated in the same bigoted place these anti-gay marriage laws originate. There will be some inspiring politician orating ala JFK - "are we going to allow 10% of our citizens to be second class citizens...." It's going to happen and the world will go on unless some lunatic leader starts a nasty war that will destroy all of humanity.
but my personal value system just plain "backs up" at gay marriage. I can even live with States making the call and living with the majority opinion. Call me bigoted if you want, but I see different "minorities" that have been and continue to be discriminated against in one way or another all across our great land. If we sanction gay marriage, does that mean we have to sanction polygamy? Do we have to sanction the rights of "kook" groups (KKK, White Aryan Nations, etc) to do whatever they want to promote their agenda? Do we sanction the rights of the Ultra rich to pay less of their income in the form of taxes? Do we sanction the rights of individuals immigrating to this country from Australia or Britain to continue to drive on the left side of the road? Can we grant every "minority" group every right they want? Is this a strawman? Perhaps, but you should be able to see where this could lead if we grant every "minority" all the "rights" they feel they are entitled to.
Where is the "misinformation" here? This is an opinion and this program is not a news show. Or is this MMFA just pushing its political agenda again?
...and they're defending it. The accusations Coulter leveled at 9-11 widows is not opinion, it is smear. If you call yourself a conservative, you should either be ashamed of her, or claim that she does not represent you.
If you DEFEND her smear, then you've joined in on it. And if you call yourself a conservative as you smear (as Coulter and others do), then it's conservative misinformation.
I posted this in the wrong topic.
I meant to say that it is obtuse to compare the two pieces of legislation, and in so doing, is misleading and therefore misinformative. Also, I see no place where the comparison is prefaced as the speaker's opinion.
I still fail to see how opinion is misinformation.
Next you'll tell us that Coulter or Dobson or whomever is "just an entertainer" as though that dismisses their hateful speach in any way.
Hey, I'm all for Dobson and his ilk getting out there and speaking their mind. It's good to know exactly where the hate is coming from. So I appreciate MMFA for putting it out there. Let guys like Dobson and his supporters defend his words. Calling his hate "opinion" doesn't mean it stands without rebuttal.
Let MMFA decide what it wants to put on its website. If you have a problem with it, go somewhere else, or defend what Dobson said. Bring it on.
misinformation is found at many levels, including in the factual bases for opinions. His 'opinion' is that gay marriage (and gays) is destructive to the civilization.
His 'facts' (see the links for more info on Dobson, his visions and facts) are: "They want to destroy the institution of marriage." "marriage is collapsing in nations that tolerate same-sex unions. " "homosexual media take-over" "Homosexuals are not monogamous", "Homosexuals deeply resent being told that they selected this same-sex inclination in pursuit of sexual excitement or some other motive. It is unfair, and I don't blame them for being irritated by that assumption. Who among us would knowingly choose a path that would result in alienation from family; rejection by friends, disdain from the heterosexual world, exposure to sexually transmitted diseases such as AIDS and tuberculosis, and even a shorter lifespan? No, homosexuality is not 'chosen' except in rare circumstances. Instead, bewildered children and adolescents find themselves dealing with something they don't even understand." "Dobson contended that "tolerance and diversity" are "buzzwords" that the We Are Family Foundation misused as part of a hidden agenda to promote homosexuality"
[link to en.wikipedia.org] [link to www.talk2action.org] [link to www.theocracywatch.org] [link to www.au.org] [link to blog.au.org] [link to blog.au.org]
This falls into the "stupid Conservative tricks" category. Par of MMFAs purpose is to point out stupid, mindless, idiotic, illogical and bigotted things that Conservatives say from time to time.
At the Liev zoo, a man used a rope to lower himself into the lion encloser. A crowd quickly gathered. He then directly approached the lions, loudly announcing "if God exists, then he will save me."
The lions immediately mauled him to death.
If only Dobson would demonstrate that same level of faith, for we are a nation of many zoo.
As the old saying goes, "so many christians... so few lions."
Combing the scriptures for an exception to that "eye of a needle" clause. He's one filthy rich old white dude, and he's not about to give any of it up.
How these people can claim the abolition of one thing (slavery, etc) as being the same thing as the denying the rights of others is far beyond me.
I'm single and have three cats. None of them are gay but I do wonder about the younger male. But they are all members of my family.
Oh and Rev, the Constitution was not designed to discriminate. So let's forget about the gays, the immigrants and flag burning for a brief moment and concentrate on more important threats to the family such as preemptive war.
Haditha quickly brushed out of the headlines, the real story about Iraq unreported..i.e, there's a vicious ethnic cleansing campaign going on between the sectarian groups while US planes are blowing up entire families in their homes with "surgical airstrikes" and US snipers are shooting little boys in the streets of Ramadi as our military is laying seige to it. Don't forget that the hunger strike at Guantanamo is still going on. None of this is being reported...while we're force-fed Coulter and gay-bashing to keep us arguing amongst ourselves. And people wonder how the Nazis were able to con the entire German people. I think that riddle has been answered.
Remember...nothing gets discussed or reported on FOX news or by the right-wing talk show hosts unless it comes out in the daily talking points from Rove's office. And of course the other "news" (call it argue-tainment to be honest) shows follow along like ratings-sick puppies. The US version of Joseph Goebbels is the one pulling all the strings. Remember that when you turn to their channels. They are all trying to keep you from reality and make you buy more shiny new stuff you don't need to make their bosses richer (CNN is really a huge commercial for Time/Warner products).
I personally refuse to watch any of this crap. It's puerile, it's childish, it's orcish. It's talking heads arguing inanities and telling themselves how clever they are as they lick the boots of their masters...just lapdogs yapping at everyone over nothing.
Only way to find out what is really going on in this world is to turn off these garbage-fests passing themselves off as real news and go hunt it down online or on satellite. Free Speech TV and LinkTV are the only real liberal media channels on the US airwaves, even Air America censors any discussion of ending the war in Iraq (the Dems own that channel and AIPAC owns the Dems).
If we want to save this nation from it's own insanity, step one is to turn off the commercialism and tune into the real world. Break your programming and become a free mind again. Good luck.
The Troglodytes infesting this board bristle when their heroes are compared to Nazis, but the parallels are so obvious that only the willfully ignorant can deny them. What I wouldn't give to hear Walter Cronkite saying "And that's the way it is" on the evening news again.
What is most striking is to compare the press feeding frenzy that engulfed the Clinton administration during the Lewinski scandal to the marshmello treatment the Bush regime is getting...the difference is undeniable. The question is, how much of our tax money was used to buy off the media?
during my scan through the hate-swamp of right-wing radio yesterday. It's amazing the contortions these guys go through to try to justify their position as anything other than bigotry against people who are different from themselves.
During this segment Dobson and his lackey were also taking potshots at the NYT, WaPo, and LAT, talking about how those papers didn't cover Alabama's constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage to their satisfaction. I wanted to be able to tell them "because it isn't of much interest to anybody outside Alabama."
Gay rights and civil rights weigh equally for me though somewhat differently.
While the color of my skin CLEARLY identifies me as a member of my family and other people of color who often stand with me to defend our civil rights, my sexual orientation is not as readily apparent. And sadly, those who held my hand and sang, marched, sat in, boycotted, got hosed, bled and went to jail with me yesterday (figuratively, I am only 38) shun me today. I stand alone with my partner, and fewer folks who look like me but a rainbow of others from different cultures, countries, creeds and walks of life... my new family.
And yes, gays do have families. Many of us are no longer welcome in our biological family so we adopt those who truly know and love us. And we sometimes have our own biological children, or we reach out to take the children that heterosexuals have thrown away because they have a disability, or were born addicted to drugs or they just weren't prepared for. So we prepare, and open our hearts and homes to those who have no one to love them, like too many of us.
See, when you are cast out from this exemplar of family (mom, dad, sibling and pet) that in itself is myth for the majority and are left to make your way in the world.. you have a REAL understanding of what love and family are and you take it wherever you find it because you understand it's TRUE value.
Family is not cookie cutter. Love is not currency. It really startles me that so many will stand by and allow themselves to be commodified in the name of bigotry. Anyone who would willingly allow THIS administration to dabble in something so personal and sacred needs to have their heads examined.
Here's a truly revolutionary idea, ESPECIALLY for so many of these so-called christians... let's honor LOVE and TRUTH insted of pandeing to Bigotry and lies.
this is probably one of the only ways to show the 'majority' what the fight against.
These thoughtless "Christians" either don't know or don't care that their bigotry actually hurts real people. I think anti-gay bigotry will eventually recede as more people realize that they have gay friends and family members, and that homosexuals are just people...like them.
Until then, we must suffer the fools as they try beat us over the head with their Bronze Age fairy tales.
Sort of.... The FMA isn't, but the Fight to legalize Gay Marriage like the Civil Rights Movement. Hell, "like" nothing... it is the next civil rights movement. Except that its equality for gays and lesbians now, instead of of racial minorities. Just because this issue doesn't focus on race doesn't mean that this isn't a civil rights issue. Its civil rights, not racial minority rights.
Now, I'm not even going to pretend that gays and lesbians have had it as bad as black people (or native Americans, for that matter), but they certainly haven't had it easy by any means. The holocaust was aimed at gays, too. The cops in America unfairly raided many a gay bar—Stonewall was one of the most significant advances in gay rights. Matthew Shepherd brought to national attention the violent homophobia that we in the community know all too well. Gays, lesbians, trans, and bi folk are constantly ostracized and harrassed and intimidated and threatened by people, just for being different., especially at schools.
I dare say its a civil rights issue.
The fact that gays want to marry in no way shape or form undermines heterosexual marriage. It doesn't harm anything. It doesn't lead to a higher divorce rate, it doesn't lead to more births out of wedlock, it doesn't lead to a drop in heteromarriage. All these arguements are red herrings that can easily and soundly be defeated with logic.
That's what annoys me about this issue. People against gay rights constatnly hide behind the phrases, "protect marriage", and, "sanctity of marriage", and don't redefine marriage", and so on.
Every reason they give that isn't clearly religious in nature fails the test of being a sound arguement. Even the "slippery slope" arguement, as Jon Stewart so brilliantly illustrated in his talk with Bill Bennett the other night. When it comes down to it, the reason people don't want gays to get married is because it creeps them out, and their religion is against it. I wish that they would just have the balls to come right out and say it for god's sake, instead of trying to dress it up in some false logic.
There is absolutely no reason why a civil society cannot allow gays to marry who they love.
The FMA is discrimination. Period. If you fail to see how, then you're obviously not as intelligent as you should be.
I cannot understand why so many people on the Right have some sort of grudge against gay marriage - to the point that it needs to be some sort of amendment to the Constitution. Thankfully, the framers of our Constitution made it somewhat difficult to change it. It is obvious to me that those who authored the Constitution envisioned the America of the future; thought long and hard about the value of the Constitution, so much so that quite a lot of debate and discourse are required in order to change it.
IF Conservatives are truly interested in defending the "sanctity" of marriage, why is it that the divorce rate in this country is so high? Who is to blame for a sky-rocketing divorce rate? Heterosexuals, of course. So, Dobson, before you start throwing stones at the so-called "gay agenda", maybe you should do some house cleaning on "your side" of the block.
The ban on gay marriage could have a huge effect on my life - personally. My partner and I have been together for several years. We live in Northern California. We live our lives, don't bother others, keep to ourselves. When his brother called us a few days ago for help, we were more than happy to help. His brother has a son with some woman he dated 8 years ago. The son (my partner's nephew) lives with his maternal grandmother in a dilapidated mobile home in buttcrack Colorado because the child's mother is a drug addict and can't hold a job. Grandmother can no longer afford to take care of her own grandchild because she is on Social Security. My partner's brother is also a drug addict, in and out of prison, etc. Not a healthy example for a child. My partner's brother has asked us to take care of the child and raise him as our own. We have agreed to do this. We can afford to give this child the childhood he deserves.
So, look at the situation here: There is a child, a beautiful child, who has fallen victim to Dobson's failures. And yes, I DO blame Dobson, and all the other freaks out there who would much rather fight the battle against gay marriage under the guise of saving families instead of helping the very broken families they say they are trying to save. Where is the help from the Right with regards to drug and alcohol abuse? Where is the help from the right with regards to child abuse, endagerment, etc.? Where is the help from the Right when grandma can't afford to raise her grandson because her Social Security sucks? How do you think Dobson would react if OTHER gay couples stepped in to clean up heterosexual messes like this one?
Simply put, gay marriage is a STRENGTHENING of the institution of marriage. It brings people together. One would think that Conservatives would want gay folks to marry and be stable, productive members of society.
So, right wing heteros, before you throw bombs at gays who want that stability, think about how YOU negatively impact marriage by the crap you pull.