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In campaign season, Fox News has repeatedly aired GOP smear ads with practically no Democratic or progressive responses

October 19, 2006 2:41 pm ET

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SUMMARY: Fox News programs in recent weeks have aired false and misleading Republican campaign advertisements attacking Democrats or Democratic congressional candidates and have hosted guests to defend the attacks, smears, and falsehoods put forth in the ads. But in all but one of the segments about the ads, Fox News failed to air a counter-ad by a Democratic candidate or host any progressive or Democrat to respond to the smears in the advertisements; the other aired only part of a Democratic ad and did so without sound.

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In recent weeks, several Fox News programs, including Your World with Neil Cavuto, The Big Story with John Gibson, Hannity & Colmes, and Fox News Live have aired false and misleading Republican campaign advertisements attacking Democrats or Democratic congressional candidates. Although the ads shown on The Big Story and Hannity & Colmes have not aired -- reportedly because they were deemed inappropriate for use by any GOP campaign -- these Fox News shows either hosted a guest to defend the attacks, smears, and falsehoods put forth in the ads or uncritically aired them. While Fox News Live also aired only part of a Democratic ad in response and did so without sound, at no time did the other programs air a counter-ad by a Democratic candidate or host any progressive or Democrat to respond to the smears in the advertisements.

For example, most recently, on the October 17 edition of Fox News' Your World, host Neil Cavuto aired a conservative attack ad produced by America's PAC that purported to blame Democrats for the higher rate of abortions among African-Americans than among whites:

NARRATOR: Today, one-third of African-American pregnancies end in abortion. Black babies are terminated at triple the rate of white babies. The Democrat [sic] Party supports these liberal abortion laws that are decimating our people. Democrats say they want our votes. Why don't they want our lives?

To discuss the ad, Cavuto hosted Herman Cain, President and CEO of T.H.E. New Voice, the conservative group responsible for providing funding for the "abortion" ad, and others like it. While Cavuto did ask if the ad was "intended to say that Democrats actually want to see the -- the black population whittled down" and if it was "sort of a Hail Mary, desperation pass on [Cain's] part and this organization's part," the ad and Cain's support of the ad went largely unchallenged. For example, Cavuto did not challenge the ad's suggestion and Cain's assertion that Democrats "support policies that do nothing to stop the abortion of black babies," or Cain's claims that the ad "give[s] people facts" and that Democratic opposition to the ad shows that "the truth hurts."

Similarly, on the October 12 edition of Fox News' The Big Story, host John Gibson aired "[a] political spoof which was reportedly too risky to be a GOP campaign ad." The "spoof" attacks the Clinton administration's North Korea policy and depicts former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright as a friend of Osama bin Laden and North Korean dictator Kim Jong Il. Gibson hosted the ad's producer, David Zucker, who says he had previously identified himself as a Democrat but changed his mind after 9-11, to discuss the ad. While Gibson claimed that "in the spirit of being fair and balanced, The Big Story tried to get a comment from YouTube [which posted the ad], but we were unable to reach them," he did not host any guest denouncing the ad. Zucker then claimed to have a written response from Albright, but he read from a general statement in which she defended the Clinton administration's North Korea policy.

Zucker later added that "our ad really wasn't directed against Madeleine Albright so much as the policy of appeasement." Later, when Gibson asked Zucker if he "still feel[s] that the Democrats in their current stance are not tough enough on security," Zucker replied: "No, they haven't changed," adding that Albright, former President Jimmy Carter, former President Bill Clinton, Senate Democratic Leader Harry Reid (NV), Rep. John Conyers (D-MI), and House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi (CA) don't "get the concept [that] being nice to our enemies won't make them nice to us, nor will it make us safer."

The September 29 edition of Fox News' Hannity & Colmes aired an attack ad from the campaign of Vernon Robinson, a Republican congressional candidate from North Carolina, that has not been released, according to Robinson. The ad states that Robinson's opponent, Rep. Brad Miller (D-NC), consistently voted against funding for body armor for U.S. troops and sickle-cell and cancer research, voting instead to fund sex studies:

NARRATOR: What kind of congressman would try to deny our soldiers the body armor needed to save their lives? The answer is your congressman, Brad Miller. That's right. Brad Miller did not vote for the appropriation that paid for improved body armor for our troops. But Brad Miller has no trouble spending your money. He'd just rather spend it on sex.

That's right. Instead of spending money on sickle-cell research, Brad Miller voted to spend your money on studying the sex lives of Vietnamese prostitutes in San Francisco.

Instead of spending money on cancer research, Brad Miller has spent your money to study the masturbation habits of old men. Brad Miller spent your tax dollars to study something called the bisexual, transgendered, and two-spirited Aleutian Eskimos, whoever they are.

Brad Miller even spent your tax dollars to pay teenage girls to watch pornographic movies with probes connected to their genitalia. Brad Miller pays for sex but not for body armor for our troops. If Miller had better priorities, you wouldn't be having to hear this.

Hosting Robinson -- but not Miller -- to discuss the ad, co-host Sean Hannity claimed that "as long as an ad, in my mind, is factual, I think -- I think every candidate has a right to be hard-hitting." Robinson then claimed that Miller has not disputed the ad's accuracy because "it's never been aired." While the program did not host Miller or any other Democrat or progressive to rebut the ad's assertions, co-host Alan Colmes did challenge the ad and Robinson. Colmes said that Miller didn't vote on the defense appropriations bill that would have provided extra body armor for troops because "he was on a trip to Iraq at the time" of the vote. Robinson deflected Colmes's assertion, saying that Congress is "out on recess six months, where they can go on trips and junkets," adding, "He [Miller] was on that trip -- and why was he on that trip?" Colmes then confronted Robinson's claim that the ad wasn't aired because its language was inappropriate for children, noted that Robinson appears on the ad approving the message, and then asked: "So if you were so concerned about the language of that ad, why would you have said that at the end of that ad?" Robinson replied: "Again, we're getting off topic here."

As Media Matters for America recently noted, on the September 28 edition of The Big Story, Gibson aired a campaign advertisement by Sen. Rick Santorum (R-PA) attacking his Democratic opponent, Robert Casey Jr., without airing an ad or a response from the Casey campaign. Instead, Gibson simply stated: "[I]t's safe to say that Casey hit Santorum just as hard."

Finally, Fox News also uncritically aired another misleading Santorum campaign ad. Media Matters noted that on the September 26 edition of Fox News Live, host Jane Skinner aired in its entirety a television advertisement produced by Santorum's campaign suggesting that the "campaign team" employed by Casey is made up of cigar-smoking crooks. Since the ad first ran, it has come to light that none of the four supposed Casey contributors depicted by actors in the spot has actually given any money to his Senate campaign and that two of them have, in fact, contributed to Santorum's re-election bid. But in her subsequent discussion of the Pennsylvania race with Fox News chief political correspondent Carl Cameron, Skinner failed entirely to inform viewers of the ad's false premise. Further, Skinner later referred to "some crazy" ad that she described as featuring "some sort of gorilla going after the Santorum workers." The ad in question, produced by Americans United for Change, criticizes Santorum's stance on the privatization of Social Security. But while Skinner played in its entirety the misleading ad targeting Casey, she aired only part of the ad criticizing Santorum -- without sound -- during her discussion with Cameron.

From the October 17 edition of Fox News' Your World with Neil Cavuto:

CAVUTO: Well, over the air and, many say, over the top, way over the top. A conservative group called America's PAC is taking on Democrats with a host of controversial radio ads intended to sway the vote of African-Americans and Latinos. Listen.

NARRATOR [audio clip]: Today, one-third of African-American pregnancies end in abortion. Black babies are terminated at triple the rate of white babies. The Democrat [sic] Party supports these liberal abortion laws that are decimating our people. Democrats say they want our votes. Why don't they want our lives?

CAVUTO: Powerful stuff. That's just a sample. There are many, many others, some voiced by my next guest, businessman and multimillionaire Herman Cain, who acknowledges these ads are meant to get your attention.

CAIN: They are controversial, Neil. And when you are spending money on media, and you might be sandwiched in between two hip-hop songs, you've got to do something to cut through the clutter. It's no different than any other product. You have to target the audience and do it in a way that will get people's attention. So they are controversial.

CAVUTO: All right. There was one Democratic activist quoted who said, they are not only controversial, "They're awful, and they're repulsive. When they say Democrats don't like black babies, that's damn fools." What you think of that?

CAIN: Well, that particular person, along with many other Democrats, that's the typical response whenever you give black people the truth or you give them facts. Now, that -- that's a typical response. They always cry foul when you let them know. It is no different than Juan Williams's new book, Enough. He raised a lot of controversy. Bill Cosby raised a lot of controversy with a speech he gave a couple of years ago.

Why? It is designed to be a wake-up call for people to not just look at the party, but look at the candidates and the values they stand for. And that's what this is intended to do.

CAVUTO: All right. But is it also intended to say that Democrats actually want to see the -- the black population whittled down?

CAIN: No. It is not intended to say that they want the black population wilted down, but it is intended to say that they support policies that do nothing to stop the abortion of black babies.

And even though we have a much bigger percentage of black babies being aborted than white babies or others, this is the point that they're trying to drive home: Make people think for themselves, and look at the candidate, and look at their core values. That is what VoteOurValues.com is all about. That's what it's trying to do.

[...]

CAVUTO: Do you, as a very prominent, successful African-American businessman in your own right, Herman, take offense to the one ad that features a dialogue between two men, one saying, "If you make a little mistake with one of your hos, you'll want to dispose of that problem tout de suite, no questions asked." Do you as, again, a very successful African-American, find that language, that dialogue offensive?

CAIN: To be perfectly honest, Neil, yes, I do. But keep in mind, that ad might be wedged in between two hip-hop ads that have language that is much more offensive to me than that particular language. And that's what we are up against, because all we are trying to do is to get -- give people a wake-up call, and get them to think for themselves. So, when you look at trying to get the message cut -- to cut through the clutter, sometimes, you got to be just a little bit on the edge.

CAVUTO: So, this is even a little too edgy for you, sometimes?

CAIN: Sometimes.

CAVUTO: Yeah.

CAIN: But the general concept of having ads that give people the facts, that tell people the truth -- and, sometimes, the truth hurts.

And, sometimes, when the truth hurts, you're going to get the reaction like you illustrated earlier about people saying that it was insensitive. It's not insensitive. It is intended to be a wake-up call for black Americans who are going to vote, so they can look at the candidates and what their values are.

CAVUTO: All right. But, unless there's a big change -- and polls don't necessarily mean anything, as you often remind me, Herman -- but, right now, it shows that 95 percent of blacks are going to be voting Democratic this midterm election, that they've been turned off by Republicans. They've been turned off by the war. They're not even impressed with an economy that is otherwise pretty sound. So, is it just sort of a Hail Mary, desperation pass on your part and this organization's part?

CAIN: No, it's a long-term process. You see, we started this process several years ago. In 2000, President Bush, as an example, to use Ohio, he got about 9 percent of the black vote in Ohio. But, in 2004, he got 16 percent, because this was one of the markets, one of the states, where we ran similar ads back then.

So, this is a long-term process. You don't turn the Titanic with one radio advertising campaign. And, so, over a period of time, we expect to get people to take a closer look at Republican candidates.

CAVUTO: All right, Herman Cain on that controversial ad campaign.

From the October 12 edition of Fox News' The Big Story with John Gibson:

GIBSON: Now for "The Big Story." Making waves on the Web. A political spoof which was reportedly too risky to be a GOP campaign ad, but it's made its way onto the Internet.

NARRATOR [video clip]: The year 2000, in an effort to stop the North Koreans from building nuclear weapons, President Clinton's secretary of state, Madeleine Albright, gave North Korean leader Kim Jong Il a basketball signed by Michael Jordan. The Democrats' thoughtful gift had two major results. The first was this. And the second was this.

GIBSON: Reportedly, the YouTube website made viewers confirm they were 18 years old to see this. That certainly didn't happen with Death of a President, a film in which President Bush is assassinated. Why slap a warning label on this one? Here now, the Hollywood filmmaker responsible for this ad, David Zucker. He was the executive producer of both comedies Scary Movie, and way back, Airplane. Mr. Zucker, thanks very much.

ZUCKER: Hi, John.

GIBSON: Just to go to YouTube first, they appeared to think that this was too hot for even them. Did that surprise you?

ZUCKER: Well, no. What surprised me was that the Republicans even came to me in the first place to ask me to do this, knowing what I do. But -- and we did submit two ads to them, and they seemed to like one pretty much, but that was the tamer of the two.

And this one they were strangely silent on. I don't think they knew exactly what to do with it. And they may have been planning to release it later or maybe two weeks before the election, but I think the events kind of overtook it.

GIBSON: By the way, in the spirit of being fair and balanced, The Big Story tried to get a comment from YouTube but we were unable to reach them. Now, Mr. Zucker --

ZUCKER: How about a comment from Madeleine Albright if you're really fair and balanced, John? I mean, why isn't she on?

GIBSON: Well, Madeleine Albright -- that's a good point, Mr. Zucker. I'd better get to her right away.

ZUCKER: Do I have to read her statement myself?

GIBSON: Do you have it there?

ZUCKER: I do have it. She said: "During the two terms of the Clinton administration, there were no nuclear weapons tests by North Korea. Through our policy of effective, constructive engagement, the world was safer."

GIBSON: Sandy Berger said that on this program a couple days ago. I take it you don't agree.

ZUCKER: Well, I think that that -- it's just shows that they haven't really learned from it. Now, [Sen.] John McCain [R-AZ] has been on the airwaves pretty much in the past couple of days really kind of admitting his culpability in it, because he said, you know, he was in the Senate at the time. But you know, our ad really wasn't directed against Madeleine Albright so much as the policy of appeasement.

And it just doesn't work. These guys are all evil, whether it's the guy in Iran who's got nukes now or [late Palestinian leader Yasser] Arafat, which they tried to engage him for eight years. It just never seems to work. So that's really where we're -- what we're trying to poke fun at.

GIBSON: Mr. Zucker, what happened? You are a Hollywood movie producer. And I can't remember another one saying the things you are saying. What happened?

ZUCKER: Well, you know, I was a Democrat for my whole life and -- as was my family for, you know, generation after generation. And I think 9-11 kind of changed my mind. I said, wait, this is real. And I think I thought that the most important issue facing us is security.

I mean, it had to be more important than my environmental interests or my pro-choice attitude or just any other opinions I had. It just was security above all. And I just wasn't comfortable with the Democrats' response, and so while I voted for [then-Vice President Al] Gore and [Sen. Joseph] Lieberman in 2000, in 2004 was the first time I'd ever voted for a Republican president.

GIBSON: Now, I take it you still feel that way, you still feel that the Democrats in their current stance are not tough enough on security?

ZUCKER: No, they haven't changed at all. I mean, they're defending -- I mean, McCain isn't really proud of his culpability, I mean, to the extent that in the Senate he was, but they're all -- you know, Carter hasn't learned anything.

And I don't think Madeleine Albright has learned anything, nor Clinton nor the people who would be the heads of all the committees, like [House Democratic Leader] Nancy Pelosi [CA] and [Senate Democratic Leader] Harry Reid [NV] and [Rep. John] Conyers [D-MI]. I mean, they're all -- I don't think they get the concept of being nice to our enemies won't make them nice to us, nor will it make us safer.

From the September 29 edition of Fox News' Hannity & Colmes:

NARRATOR [video clip]: What kind of congressman would try to deny our soldiers the body armor needed to save their lives? The answer is your congressman, Brad Miller.

That's right. Brad Miller did not vote for the appropriation that paid for improved body armor for our troops. But Brad Miller has no trouble spending your money. He would just rather spend it on sex.

That's right. Instead of spending money on sickle-cell research, Brad Miller voted to spend your money to study the sex lives of Vietnamese prostitutes in San Francisco.

Instead of spending money on cancer research, Brad Miller spent your money to study the masturbation habits of old men. Brad Miller spent your tax dollars to study something called the bisexual, transgendered, and two-spirited Aleutian Eskimos, whoever they are.

Brad Miller even spent your tax dollars to pay teenage girls to watch pornographic movies with probes connected to their genitalia.

Brad Miller pays for sex but not for body armor for our troops. If Miller had better priorities, you wouldn't be having to hear this.

HANNITY: Joining us now is the candidate behind that ad, that's Republican congressional candidate for the 13th District, North Carolina, Vernon Robinson. Vern, welcome to the program. What do you say to those people who say, "Whoa, that's hard-hitting, even crosses the line"? What do you say to that?

ROBINSON: Well, Sean, actually, we never put that out as an ad. We sent it around for comment. Somebody put it on YouTube. I was concerned that we shouldn't have some of those words where they might be heard by children or mixed company, actually. And I would -- and the feedback I got confirmed that.

But we stand wholeheartedly by the content. Congress shouldn't be funding those studies, and -- and Brad Miller shouldn't be gallivanting around instead of doing what he's supposed to be doing when Congress is in session, which is voting for body armor.

HANNITY: You know, as long as an ad, in my mind, is factual, I think -- I think every candidate has a right to be hard-hitting. And frankly, I think it's -- it's particularly refreshing when it does happen.

But there -- you know, you can back up every one of those claims, and the fact that he voted for the appropriations on such things. Does he dispute the ad? Does he dispute the accuracy at all?

ROBINSON: Well, since it's never been aired --

HANNITY: Well, it's out there now. It's been out there --

ROBINSON: On YouTube. He just says it's outrageous. He never -- you know, whether he's talking about illegal immigration or all the other issues like sponsoring legislation foreign homosexuals --

COLMES: Mr. Robinson, your ad --

ROBINSON: He never deals with -- he never deals with the substance of the --

COLMES: Let's deal with the substance of the ad. It's Alan Colmes in New York, sir. The idea -- you said that he tried to deny the troops body armor. Tell me exactly, how did he try to deny the troops body armor?

ROBINSON: Well, he didn't vote for the appropriation.

COLMES: He didn't vote on the bill because he was on a trip to Iraq at the time. He's not trying to deny the troops body armor. That's a factual inaccuracy, sir.

ROBINSON: Well, no, that's not a factual inaccuracy. And Alan, you know that Congress is in session six months to vote for appropriations. And they're out on recess six months, where they can go on trips and junkets. And the reality is, is that Brad Miller doesn't sit on any of the relevant committees: appropriations, foreign affairs, any of those.

COLMES: That's not trying to deny troops body armor. That's a misrepresentation. And by the way, when he said --

ROBINSON: No, that's not a misrepresentation. He votes against the troops repeatedly.

COLMES: No, he was on a trip to Iraq at the time and missed one vote. And you're trying to hold -- go after him for that.

ROBINSON: He was on a trip to Iraq -- and why was he on that trip? He wasn't on a committee. He was -- are you going to let me answer the question?

COLMES: You also said -- you also said that you were upset about children hearing language in that ad. You say at the end of that ad that "I'm Vernon Robinson. I approve of this message." So if you were so concerned about the language of that ad, why would you have said that at the end of the ad?

ROBINSON: Again, we're getting off topic here.

COLMES: No, that is the topic. You said you didn't like the language but you approved of the ad.

ROBINSON: He doesn't sit on any relevant committee. The reality is he was over in Iraq doing --

COLMES: We talked about that, sir. Now I'm asking you the next question, why you say you approve of an ad after you just said you didn't like the language in it because it might offend kids. So which is it?

ROBINSON: He was over in Iraq doing --

COLMES: Why are you ignoring my question? Why is that?

ROBINSON: Doing photo opportunities.

COLMES: Sir, I'm asking you a question about why you say you approve an ad that you just a moment ago said could be offensive to kids.

ROBINSON: Well, I stand by the content of the ad. I would have voted for the two amendments to get rid of all of those ridiculous spending. We had teenage college girls being paid to watch pornographic movies and measure their arousal. That's ridiculous.

HANNITY: We've got to run. Appreciate you being with us. Thank you for being on board.

Expand All Expand 1st Level Collapse All Add Comment
    • Author by scooter (October 19, 2006 2:53 pm ET)
         

      Did you see that on the Faux screen? These guys are so busy pumping out propoganda that they don't need to be factual or intelligent. OK, wait, I guess since the average avid Faux viewer is an idiot, what would it matter.

      Report Abuse
    • Author by peet (October 19, 2006 2:56 pm ET)
         

      MMFA has to report it... but, does this surprise anyone? No. It's expected.

      Report Abuse
    • Author by dangrady (October 19, 2006 3:04 pm ET)
         

      When America was stil a Democracy we had the Fairness Doctrine in the media, and the FCC would have fined this network until equal time and access was achieved, as would they if a network was overtly seen as giving a Democrat an exess of access to the media.

      The Republicans began and ended their opining with comments about the 'leftwing dominated media' and it was taken to heart by those they accused. Networks were made to give even larger segments to offset what were vaguel perseived bias.

      Now we have all the networks on the common airways in the pocket, and working in concert with the Republican Party.

      See the title of this posting as the path to our salvation, and the only hope for American Democracy.

      Happy Thoughts;

      Dan Grady

      Report Abuse
      • Author by thedevilsadvocate (October 19, 2006 4:07 pm ET)
           

        I've thought about the Fairness Doctrine for a bit, and while it sounds good on the surface but breaks down when you think about the possible scenarios that have to be considered.

        If you use MMFA's litmus test of addressing balanced and equal number of responses from "Left" and "liberal" groups, then how do you really police that? You say, just like MMFA does, count the number of liberal responses vs conservative responses. So fine, you get Fox putting up token liberals who aren't really (Murdoch starts quietly funding a fake non profit group who's sole purpose is really just to appear on Fox and pretend to present the Left's side of the argument)

        Do you then legislate that? Man sounds like a huge can of worms to me. Not that I'm saying its right and I agree there's a problem, but sounds like legislation upon legislation to get something that still ultimately boils down to you don't really know what lies in someones mind. The government would have to hold hearings to determine whether the "liberals" presented by Fox were indeed liberals.. sounds like a huge waste of time, and government beauracracy to me.

        I'm more in favor of a light government comittee that basically analyzes public news sources and forces them to carry a label of "Right" or "Left" if they are found to be too slanted.

        Most intelligent people should be able to figure out a slant anyway, over the course of time without any such label IMHO because they are going to be checking multiple news sources.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by solon (October 19, 2006 4:18 pm ET)
             

          It didnt cause any problems other than denying an almost complete ideological conformity on the Radio.

          Report Abuse
          • Author by tommy (October 19, 2006 4:47 pm ET)
               

            It's called ratings. Because liberal talk radio can't get any traction or substantive ratings and linger far behind in nearly every market, many on the left call for the FD again. Try winning in the arena of the free marketplace and you wouldn't have to whine to the government to bail you out.

            Report Abuse
            • Author by BarryGoldwaterConservative (October 19, 2006 5:09 pm ET)
                 

              Tommy you are completely right(although I wish you were not). The FD is not going to change a thing, we as liberals need to understand that. The best alternative is to ignore these "news" channels and get our information off of RELIABLE sources. I know it sucks for the left not having much of a voice in cable news but that is the unfortunate truth. In fact when you think about it if thier was no slant in news this site would not even exist.....

              Report Abuse
              • Author by nerzog (October 19, 2006 5:20 pm ET)
                   

                Liberal talk radio does well in some markets. The truth is, it hasn't been given a fair chance nationwide, most likely because the multi-billionaires who own multiple radio stations are Republicans. I live in a large southern city, and there is NO liberal talk radio here. Never has been. Oh, our conservative stations had a couple of token local liberals about 10 years ago, but conservatives called and complained about them so much that the stations fired them. Now we have two 24/7 conservative talk stations. I refuse to believe that in a city of 500,000, there are not enough liberals to support a radio station. Don't tell me about market forces; it's not quite that simple.

                Report Abuse
                • Author by tommy (October 19, 2006 5:51 pm ET)
                     

                  Then necessity is the mother of invention. If it's such a no brainer, then investors, perhaps you, would be lining up and licking their chops to get on the air and garner some of that untapped market and the hungry ad dollars.

                  What's stopping you, or anyone?

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by nerzog (October 19, 2006 6:12 pm ET)
                       

                    Is lack of money. Starting up a radio station is expensive. And, isn't there a limit as to how many stations can exist in a given market? Not sure about that one. Anyway, NPR does quite well here, and conservatives generally consider it "lefty". So, the audience is here, just nobody with the right mix of deep pockets and left-leaning politics willing to take on the task.

                    Report Abuse
              • Author by dave_chicago (October 19, 2006 7:00 pm ET)
                   

                >>"The best alternative is to ignore these "news" channels"<<

                That works ---for you or me. But there are thousands of Fox viewers who believe they are getting what is advertised: "fair and balanced" news. They clearly are not. And they continue to watch. They continue to pass along Fox/RNC talking points-as if it were truth. They continue to vote for the right-wing candidates Fox advocates.

                If the Fairness Doctrine is not reimplemented, then at the very least Fox ought to call itself what it truly is: Republican TV & Government propaganda, and stop the pretense that it is a "news" channel.

                Report Abuse
                • Author by thedevilsadvocate (October 19, 2006 7:11 pm ET)
                     

                  They shouldn't be able to lie about being fair and balanced when they clearly are not.

                  This is different than enforcing that all sides get "equal" coverage and lost costly to the public, in my opinion.

                  Truth be told, even if Fox labled themselves the Conservative News Source, I doubt it would impact the number of their viewers. But at least I'd get the satisfaction they aren't allowed to be dishonest in saying what they really are.

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by thedevilsadvocate (October 19, 2006 7:12 pm ET)
                       

                    should have been "less costly to the public"

                    Report Abuse
                  • Author by azapache (October 20, 2006 12:02 am ET)
                       

                    According to demographics, with the majority of viewers over 65 years of age. I figure FOX only has a view good years left. Already their viewship is sliding, I estimate all of the FOX viewers will died in ten years.

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by azapache (October 20, 2006 12:08 am ET)
                         

                      According to demographics, with the majority of FOX viewers over 65 years of age. I figure FOX only has a few good years left. Already their viewership is sliding, I estimate all of the FOX viewers will be dead in ten years.

                      Report Abuse
            • Author by solon (October 19, 2006 5:29 pm ET)
                 

              Dononhue was canned when he was the top rated show on MSNBC, the worry was about advertising revenue. Not ratings. As long as all media is paid for by advertising we will get the business and elite agenda, no matter what the ratings are. Disney canned Jim Hightower with spectacular ratings. I have said this many times. Seeing media as either liberal or conservative misses the point. Its bias is business bias and elite opinion bias. This usually translates into socially liberal and economically (which conflates to foriegn policy) conservative. A woman named Serra was a New York Times investigative reporter, they gave her the long Island beat. The big story there was the new Nuclear Power Plant issue. It was the popular issue. The people of Long Island were intensely interested in this debate. Serra found out many disturbing facts about the project. EVERY single thing she found out was found in the fullness of time to be true. She ended up losing her job for doing a good job and giving the people of Long Island the true facts that were embarassing to the business community. Sydney Shambourg may have been Americas most famous and influential investigative journalist. WHEN HE WAS A FORIEGN CORRESPONDENT. He won the Pulitzer Prize. He was fired from the NYTimes because of the columns he wrote exposing a road project the business community wanted as a boondoggle that would hurt the PEOPLE of New York for the advantage of business. You keep SAYING ratings but thats not it at all. Its ADVERTINSING, therefore its business.

              Report Abuse
              • Author by tommy (October 19, 2006 5:45 pm ET)
                   

                You keep SAYING ratings but thats not it at all. Its ADVERTINSING, therefore its business.

                *********************

                Uh, I got news for you. Ratings determine advertising rates.

                Report Abuse
                • Author by solon (October 19, 2006 6:10 pm ET)
                     

                  It doesnt determine what shows will GET advertising as my examples showed. The Kwitney report won the Polk award for journalism when exposing US corporate dealings with Guatemalan death squads. The next year they were off the air because THEY COULDNT GET ADVERTISING. It was a popular show that got GOOD ratings for PBS, but it gave the wrong message. Keep pretending that public opinion rules what the media does it just doesnt stand up to the light of the facts. Do you really think no one was reading Shambourg? Serra? Dononhue might have been able to charge MORE for his advertising but the mere THREAT that advertising on their network might suffer from his anti war message caused him to be cancelled with the TOP RATINGS ON HIS NETWORK. Now they CLAIMED it was due to poor ratings at FIRST to keep the rightwing canard you are still trying to sell until the proof came out it was a LIE. Hey, you have your talking points and some compulsion to push them as if they represented reality in some way, it doesnt stand up to scrutiny however.

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by tommy (October 19, 2006 6:19 pm ET)
                       

                    Waaaaaaaah, Waaaaaaaaaah, (cry, cry).

                    Help Government, please!!! Nobody likes us, the media, the networks, nobody. We can't get out message out, and it's a good one!! We are trounced at every turn in the ratings, advertisers are scared of us, (not due to our extremism however), what do we do???

                    But it's all right wing talking points, ya right!!!

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by thedevilsadvocate (October 19, 2006 6:24 pm ET)
                         

                      You didn't address his anecdote about Donahue, which really clashes with what you just said. (not that I am saying that Solon is correct in his assessment, but rather to keep the discussion from dissolving into a flamefest :P )

                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by tommy (October 19, 2006 6:32 pm ET)
                           

                        That is only Solon's opinion, (oops) of what happened to Donahue. See my post below. There were many factors in his demise, it's not as simple as Solon wants you to believe. Once again, he takes facts and puts them in his own context.

                        Misleading.

                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by solon (October 19, 2006 7:28 pm ET)
                             

                          You called it a failure but it WAS MSNBC's top rated show, I would hardly call that a failure. So what I said was just my opinion, backed up by hard facts and an internal MSNBC memo. But YOUR opinion that his time had passed was somehow something MORE than opinion?So thats how facts that contradict your talking points are dispatched? Its more complicated than that and its misleading? Exactly HOW is it misleading? How is the FACT that MSNBC fired their top rated personality not in direct contradiction to your its all about ratings theory? YOU call me on putting my pet spin on things yet I notice you still havent coughed up any evidence that returning the fairness doctrine would create a massive buearacracy nor be ultra expensive. So I guess its ok when YOU do it. I at least gave a logical rationale behind my assertion yours came directly from your rectal database. Or Limbaughs.

                          Report Abuse
                        • Author by dave_chicago (October 20, 2006 9:18 am ET)
                             

                          >>>"There were many factors in his demise..."<<<

                          And any day now Tommy is going to tell us what those factors were. Just be patient.......

                          Report Abuse
                    • Author by kgonz (October 19, 2006 6:26 pm ET)
                         

                      YOU whine about people here being immature and then when you can no longer argue effectively because you have no counter, you resort to immature sarcasm worthy of Rush himself.

                      Solon make spoints you refuse to engage, instead returning to your simplistic notions of "it's all about ratings" and "liberals just cry because they aren't as popular as Republicans." Seriously, Tommy, can you come up with anything to actually argue or do you just want to keep baiting?

                      Report Abuse
                    • Author by solon (October 19, 2006 7:18 pm ET)
                         

                      Waaaaah? I understand that is a crybaby conservatives native language but as a rebuttal? It was WAAAHHHH we cant stand the arena of ideas when opposition and rebuttals were mandated on the PUBLICS airwaves, that got the fairness doctrine canned in the first place. Now its WWWAAAAAAHHHHH I cant rebut what you say so WAAAAHHH? Hey good luck with that.

                      Report Abuse
                    • Author by heru (October 19, 2006 10:12 pm ET)
                         

                      (wiping tears)

                      Waaaaaaaah, Waaaaaaaaaah, (cry, cry).

                      Help Government, please!!! Nobody likes us, the media, the networks, nobody. We can't get out message out, and it's a good one!! We are trounced at every turn in the ratings, advertisers are scared of us, (not due to our extremism however), what do we do???

                      But it's all right wing talking points, ya right!!!

                      - tommy

                      -----------------------------------------

                      Wow the Man-Boy love support for the Grand Old Pedophile Party is amazing.

                      Report Abuse
                    • Author by mefirst (October 20, 2006 7:50 am ET)
                         

                      "waaaah. we [the left] can't get our message out and it's a good one." that's right tommy. when you have something like the downing street memo, which proved bush lied and was headlines in england for weeks and yet ignored here, there's a problem. my brother and sister in law are democrats , watch the news, read a paper every day, live in an area with all right wing talk, and i had to tell them about it months later.

                      Report Abuse
                    • Author by ellie717 (October 20, 2006 12:47 pm ET)
                         

                      Because you can't deny that he was right!

                      In reality, it's you who is whining, Tommy.

                      Whining because what Solon said is right. You weren't right. It's about advertising dollars. Something can have good ratings, but if it doesn't have the 'correct' ratings, then the advertising dollars are not there.

                      Report Abuse
            • Author by Blue Dog (October 19, 2006 5:34 pm ET)
                 

              "Because liberal talk radio can't get any traction or substantive ratings and linger far behind in nearly every market, many on the left call for the FD again."

              Isn't that like saying "Because the rightwing knows that it can't win elections if the audience is well-informed, many on the right abhor the FD."

              When people call for the FD, it has nothing to do with whether or not air america is failing. the FD is called for to prevent outlets like fox news from lying to the public.

              Dude, sometimes you can't even speak without being insulting. I normally wouldn't care, but you hold yourself up as such a bastion of professionalism....I just couldn't let it go.

              Report Abuse
              • Author by tommy (October 19, 2006 5:49 pm ET)
                   

                The only reason you and others are calling for the FD is because you can't beat the Limbaugh's and the Fox News' in the ratings. At least be honest, otherwise you just look foolish.

                What you call lies because of your political affiliation, others call the plain truth. And vice versa on the other side. Just because you don't share their opinions.........

                So offer your own, go at them head to head - there is plenty of liberal money out there.........oh wait, that's been tried and failed, with Air America. Guess the public isn't ready for your "truth".

                Report Abuse
                • Author by snoopy (October 19, 2006 6:07 pm ET)
                     

                  Do you even understand what the fairness doctrine is?

                  "The Fairness Doctrine is a former policy of the United States's Federal Communications Commission. It required broadcast licensees to present controversial issues of public importance, and to present such issues in an honest, equal and balanced manner."

                  It was a Republican controlled commission that canned the doctrine in 1987 (talk about politics).

                  There were two correlaries that remained in effect until 2000:

                  "The personal attack rule was pertinent whenever a person or small group was subject to a character attack during a broadcast. Stations had to notify such persons or groups within a week of the attack, send them transcripts of what was said, and offer the opportunity to respond on the air. The political editorial rule applied when a station broadcasts editorials endorsing or opposing candidates for public office, and stipulated that the candidates not endorsed be notified and allowed a reasonable opportunity to respond."

                  Imagine that, equal opportunity to respond and the right to defend yourself against personal attacks. And you think getting rid of that is a bad thing?

                  Report Abuse
                • Author by solon (October 19, 2006 6:15 pm ET)
                     

                  Thats why Dononhue got such poor ratings, WAIT he was the top rated show on his network. We cant take the competition, thats why the TOP RATED SHOW ON THE NETWORK got cancelled. Welcome to Planet Wingnut.

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by tommy (October 19, 2006 6:23 pm ET)
                       

                    MSNBC's top rated show - Wow!! That is like, what? ................ one tenth of Fox's top rated show?

                    Come on Solon, you can do better than poor Phil Donahue. He was a dinosaur left wing liberal whose time had passed thirty years ago. That's why he failed.

                    Now you've got Olbermann, who I like and hopes he gets more popular - because he offers a different point of view. I hope he does well.

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by solon (October 19, 2006 7:31 pm ET)
                         

                      For a network getting caned in the ratings to fire their TOP RATED PROGRAM because.....? This was such a logic free rebuttal that out of mercy I will refrain from taking it apart and leave it at that.

                      Report Abuse
                    • Author by ellie717 (October 20, 2006 12:54 pm ET)
                         

                      He had MSNBC's top rated show.

                      For any network, a top tier network or just one of the myriad second or third tier network, to cancel their top rated show is a clear sign that he was not cancelled for lack of ratings, but rather for a lack of advertising dollars.

                      You won't admit to reality.

                      Report Abuse
                • Author by kgonz (October 19, 2006 6:20 pm ET)
                     

                  that "truth" is completely relative and subjective? That pursuit of TRUTH shouldn't be what those describing themselves as "journalists" and "news channels" aspire to seek out and report? Is all of life then just based on ideology? And who can most successfully pimp out their talking points?

                  Because your argument about "the free market" and "your 'truth.'" appears to me to assert just that.

                  While I don't have a quick answer about how the FD works in the current media environment, I would like to point out a few things:

                  a) I don't listen to Air America or any talk radio because I see it all as pointless ideological crap

                  b) The current media enviropnment would not have been possible if the FD had not been tossed out in the first place. How does Rush become Rush under the old rules?

                  c) Free speech should not be dtermined by the amopunt of money one has. To advocate a system (whether in media or otherwise) where your wealth and access to power determines the amount of "free" speech you can voice inherently creates inequity in whose voices and ideas are heard.

                  d) Just because something is difficult does not mean it is a bad idea.

                  e) The effectiveness of government entities is often tied to the partisan nature of that entity. With a completely nonpartisan entity in charge of the FD, it could be effective. If the folks in power (whoever that is) run it, it becomes worthless.

                  f) The "free market" does not solve everything. The simplistic notion of the "free market" somehow righting all wrongs is not supported by actual history. Unions gave us the weekend, not capitalistic free markets. The 8-hour workday, workers' righhts, the abolishment of child labor, etc. are all things your miraculous capitalistic markets rejected until social resistance and government intervention.

                  Truth is not subjective. Truth is something to be sought out and proclaimed, but with reason and logic, not ideology and manipulation.

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by tommy (October 19, 2006 6:26 pm ET)
                       

                    Many of you have is you confuse your "beloved search for the truth" vs. pundits and their opinions. They are not the same thing. Opinions are just that. They should be based on facts, but that's why we have such a vast array of opinions, because people form these based on a variety of factors.

                    So you don't like an opinion. Well, so what? And you are offended? Well, so what? This is America.

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by kgonz (October 19, 2006 6:35 pm ET)
                         

                      I asked a question - is truth subjective? And I don't mean opinions. I mean truth. When O'Rielly or some says something that is untrue, like "I don't do personal attacks," or claims women are "never" in mortal danger during pregnancy or he won an award he didn't, that's not him giving an opinion. That's asserting a "fact." Hell, a lot of the time, these folks will say, "it's a fact that" before unloading what you seem to be classifying as opinions.

                      You seem to denigrate the pursuit of truth. Do you really believe that it is all about promoting ideology and trying to beat the other ideologies by any means necessary? When people who work for a news channel as reporters OR commentators say things that are untrue, that is a problem. You seem to want to beleiev that it will all work out because of some magical force called the free market. Your faith in such forces is as naive as you try to make those of us who believe in regulation sound.

                      By the way, good job not actually adrressing my specific point and instead returning to your tried and true talking points. You have truly mastered that skill.

                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by tommy (October 19, 2006 6:44 pm ET)
                           

                        If you think I want to pay for some govt. agency to monitor Bill O'Reilly and scold him or fine him or counter him with another voice because he says > ""I don't do personal attacks," or claims women are "never" in mortal danger during pregnancy or he won an award he didn't........." - you are out of your mind!

                        Of course the truth is important, is that what you want me to say? But because some dumb commentator on TV blabbers about himself and lies about some award he did or didn't get.............well, what do you want? > "Hi, this is Mr. So and So. And I am here to tell you that Bill O'Reilly is lying to you about the personal attacks he says he doesn't use".

                        Paid for by you and me. No thanks,

                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by snoopy (October 19, 2006 7:46 pm ET)
                             

                          1st of all, let it be known that when Reagan helped can the FD, Rush appeared the very next year - 100% unsponsored. Republicans do the same thing every year, they buy block time 1st and then find sponsors to pay for it. Liberals are disadvantaged because most stations are owned by Republicans who refuse to sell block time to liberals wanting to do the same thing. You must be nuts if you think Soros wouldn't buy block time like a Republican does to get his views out, fact is no one will sell him the time.

                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by thedevilsadvocate (October 19, 2006 8:04 pm ET)
                               

                            I still don't see how you can honestly say that. When you look at all the avenues of media such a oversight committee would have to consume and deliberate on, and then think of the man hours required to even get close to handling all of it (not just the "hot" pieces that are being screamed about by this partisan or that)., it get's pretty crazy. Especially when you start thinking about Public Broadcast vs Private Broadcast being covered by this.. are they both covered? If not, than Fox News (Hannity and O'Reilly, etc) get a pass. If you say that Private Broadcast is covered, then what constitutes a Private Broadcast? Do internet blogs then become subject to FD? If not, why not? Fox could use it's website as a way to escape the FD by referring people to their website, where it's no holds barred.

                            You might say only if the entity behind them generates revenue based on it. What kind of revenue? What if they have Ad banners on their website? What if the ads are paid for by Left or Right wing groups ? What if they aren't? What happens to personal opinion and Freedom of Speech? Does the FD now apply to private citizens with their webpages?

                            Like I said on the surface it sounds like some great thing, but in the end I just don't think its worth the taxpayers dollars to pay for it the massive machine required to come close do doing something effectively about the problem.

                            (The original post suggested FD as a solution to Fox News in this instance.)

                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by solon (October 19, 2006 9:25 pm ET)
                                 

                              not based on facts in evidence. First of all who said there would necessarily be moniters, I believe the FCC acts on complaints I dont belive they moniter everything to enforce their obscenity regulations. Second you posit a HUGE need. Woudlnt cable networks follow the law, and ALLOW counter opinions? Only by making THESE unbased assumptions can you extrapolate this huge cost that wasnt evident BEFORE the fairness doctrine was abolished. Also what Bill says about himself would in no way be covered by the fairness doctrine only partisan and public policy discussions.

                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by thedevilsadvocate (October 19, 2006 9:43 pm ET)
                                   

                                I think I seem to have read that the FD was originally designed to handle Public Broadcast (and as I noted in my post that you are responding to, Fox News really doesn't fall under this category since it is on Private Broadcast (cable) ) So if the FCC is suddenly to become something it never was, taking on more than it originally ever did, than what other assumption would you make in terms of cost to the tax payer?

                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by solon (October 19, 2006 11:49 pm ET)
                                     

                                  PBS was created when the other stations wanted to get out of their obligation to perform some public service functions. I have never heard any such distinction. The cable airwaves are as much a public resource as the rest of the airwaves. Actually I dont get what your point is,

                                  Here is a historical synopsis of the Fairness doctrine. Notice it evolved as it could now to take into accout differing perceptions of what was necessary and acceptable.

                                  [link to www.museum.tv]

                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by thedevilsadvocate (October 20, 2006 3:23 pm ET)
                                       

                                    Supports your assumption. The original FD (from what I have read and from your article) was supposedly put into place because at the time there was concern about the limited spectrum available of frequencies in Radio broadcasting (hence public broadcasting in that sense, not PBS itself). The goal at the time was to prevent monopolization of a *limited* resource by any one political party.

                                    From your linked article: "By the 1980s, many things had changed. The "scarcity" argument which dictated the "public trustee" philosophy of the Commission, was disappearing with the abundant number of channels available on cable TV"

                                    It is kind of vague but just because they mention cable here doesn't mean that it was under the FCC's mandate at the time. I think that's a conflation on your part based on other things I have read.

                                    Report Abuse
                                    • Author by solon (October 20, 2006 6:47 pm ET)
                                         

                                      However it was NOT the argument I responded to that would be ...'I think I seem to have read that the FD was originally designed to handle Public Broadcast (and as I noted in my post that you are responding to, Fox News really doesn't fall under this category since it is on Private Broadcast (cable) )' That would be wrong, it was NOT originally designed for public broadcast only nor would cable fall into a category that would not have been covered.

                                      Now to your NEW argument, this is a much better one, and it can be reasonably asserted. I would say they are still finite and what constitutes scarce is a subjective judgement. They still belong to US and we have a right to the opinion that it be regulated. As another poster pointed out the Downing street memo somehow missed wide publication in the US even with the larger number of news outlets. As did the other poster I was the one to tell a fairly well informed democrat about it at least a month after the story broke and was HUGE news in Britian.

                                      Report Abuse
                                      • Author by thedevilsadvocate (October 20, 2006 7:42 pm ET)
                                           

                                        Been a busy day, didn't intentionally try to shift my argument from the original argument.

                                        Good points on the problem. I think my other post further in the thread that I posted to day covers the Downing Street memo etc (although I didn't mention it specifically).

                                        Reiteriating what I said in my other post: It is simply a matter of time before the internet gives anyone the option to get the "truth". How you chose to get the "truth" is up to you.

                                        A final note before I head off into the weekend:

                                        If any news channel out there says whatever they want and sure, I might not be have enough money to shell out to by equal time to confront them via that same medium, but that does not mean I do not have a publicly common medium at my fingertips (internet) that will allow me to get my message across and repudiate that news organization.

                                        In the end Corporations cannot beat the internet... they will be drug kicking and screaming along with the new reality of limited, to no control over media.

                                        Since there is light at the end of the tunnel, I really don't see the need for the FD, but that's my opinion.

                                        Thanks for the debate, have a good weekend.

                                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by snoopy (October 19, 2006 7:50 pm ET)
                             

                          Gee, what a surprise. Turns out it was less than 1/2% of the yearly budget. Wow, I can see why you are upset about that huge beaurocratic nightmare...

                          Report Abuse
            • Author by NewUsername (October 19, 2006 5:43 pm ET)
                 

              the corporations (biased to the right) finally starts to pay the people to use their airwaves, your point would be more valid.

              Report Abuse
            • Author by heru (October 19, 2006 10:07 pm ET)
                 

              Sorry buddy but the Dems won't turn to being overly friendly to little boys so they can be more popular. And by the way, thanks for putting this scum in office.

              Report Abuse
            • Author by dave_chicago (October 20, 2006 11:42 am ET)
                 

              >>..."you wouldn't have to whine to the government to bail you out."<<<

              So in a nutshell, Tommy is uncritical of Fox and totally supports what the "News" channel is perpetrating here----airing Republican candidates' campaign ads --in full and free of charge-- and airing none or virtually none from Democrats. Tommy sees nothing wrong with this system at all.

              Report Abuse
          • Author by thedevilsadvocate (October 19, 2006 4:58 pm ET)
               

            I guess that's a perception thing really. I see the expense of the program as a problem, when in the end it really doesn't solve anything other than to give people a "feel good" that something is being done about the fairness of our media. The topic is so subjective that a government committee on this , using a litmus test such as MMFA does when examining these issues, really isn't enough to actually solve the problem. It just shifts it. Number of Conservative responses? Check. Number of Liberal responses? Check. ok our job is done, they met their quota. When the real problem then becomes, are the responses genuine? When do you start legislating that? how deep do you go? how much money and time is wasted.

            Either the committee is ineffectually superficial in saying they are "addressing the problem" or they keep chasing the moving target (IMHO) via legislation and hearings.

            That's why I'd prefer the less costly solution of forcing news companies to label themselves how they are judged to be slanted. (There's still some subjectivity there but it's a bit less IMHO)

            Report Abuse
            • Author by tommy (October 19, 2006 5:12 pm ET)
                 

              You are correct. It would be an unimaginable, bureaucratic, ultra expensive nightmare of gigantic proportions to monitor and enforce something of this magnititude. The sheer volume of information out there in the media makes it virtually impossible for some government agency to make sure all sides are heard. What about the Green Party, or the Law Party? Why would they not get the same voice?

              It is always trotted out by those who are failing in the ratings, just know that if the situation were reversed and liberals were trouncing conservatives in talk radio and cable TV, some on the right would be clammoring for this too.

              Report Abuse
              • Author by BarryGoldwaterConservative (October 19, 2006 5:18 pm ET)
                   

                Yep the FD is a waste of time. We just got to deal with what we have. Information is not just released through these cable news networks anyways. Oh by the way, what is the LAW Party???

                Report Abuse
                • Author by tommy (October 19, 2006 6:12 pm ET)
                     

                  The Natural Law party is born out of transcendental meditation, I think??? I don't really know much about it, but they would have every right to demand their point of view be just as accessible and given as much equal time as anybody else's.

                  Thats the trouble with FD crowd. They call for it's return but have no clue how or who would implement it. The devil is in the details.

                  Report Abuse
              • Author by solon (October 19, 2006 5:34 pm ET)
                   

                Was it utlra expensive before it was gotten rid of? When they wanted it gotten rid of I never heard the argument that it was ultra expenensive nor was it an unimaginable beauracratic nightmare. Since it wasnt before I dont see why it would be NOW.

                Report Abuse
                • Author by tommy (October 19, 2006 5:44 pm ET)
                     

                  Get real. There were three major networks on TV back then. Almost no talk radio, like today. And no internet.

                  Worlds of difference.

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by solon (October 19, 2006 6:17 pm ET)
                       

                    As for the rest, well I at least had SOME evidence. Where is YOURS? You want to cough up some evidence it would create a massive beauracracy and be ultra expensive or just keep up with the baseless assertion?

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by tommy (October 19, 2006 6:34 pm ET)
                         

                      Give me your detailed plan on the FD's implementation in today's media saturated world. Put your money where your mouth is.........or is this more typical liberal argument - long on pie in the sky generalities and very short on specifics?

                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by solon (October 19, 2006 9:48 pm ET)
                           

                        Since I pointed out it WASNT hugely expensive when it was in effect before? It could be implimented the same way the FCC ban on obscenity is done. Complaints are addressed. Personal attacks would need to give the one attacked an opportunity to respond. In matters of public policy when an editorial position is espoused the station would have an obligation to seek out opposing viewpoints. This would not have to be an absolute minute for minute counter but one sided policy would be open to complaint and if corporations continued to violat this policy their licence would not be renewed. For the most part Networks would just abide like they did before. The FCC would as it did have no authority to demand anything but either fines or a loss of licence would be an available punishment for repeated violations of the doctrine.

                        Is it taken into account how much it would cost to enforce laws or is it assumed that for the most part the law would be followed? Only by assuming massive violations and complaints can you extrapolate a huge cost. Basically it would be done as it was done before. Even with violations as with most enforcement, the FCC would sent a letter saying there was a cojmplaint and then threaten action if there was no compliance most likely 90% of the time that would be all that was necessary.

                        Report Abuse
                    • Author by thedevilsadvocate (October 19, 2006 6:42 pm ET)
                         

                      Please be honest Solon.

                      The internet wouldn't be affected?

                      Why not? If CNN or Fox puts misleading transcripts or only hosts political commentary on their respective websites that is overly slanted to one political party or another, why should this not be covered by the comittee enforcing FD?

                      That makes absolutely no sense to me. Fox 'news' correspondent says "Visit our website on www.foxnews.com for more details" So your just drawing the line on Radio and Cable TV? ?? Because those are captured audiences? Wait don't people get to chose to buy cable?

                      Seriously if that's where your going with your argument it's got a lot of holes in it.

                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by tommy (October 19, 2006 6:46 pm ET)
                           

                        And I thank you. You are absolutely correct. If you don't include the media in this FD farce, can you only imagine the runaway train that would become.

                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by tommy (October 19, 2006 6:52 pm ET)
                             

                          The internet

                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by heru (October 19, 2006 10:17 pm ET)
                               

                            The only thing that matters is that we are running these sick chickenhawks you put in office out of Washington for good. After we humiliate the GOP fascist pedophile crowd, your boy Trick Cheney will be impeached, then Dumbya.

                            Enjoy!

                            Report Abuse
                      • Author by solon (October 20, 2006 12:02 am ET)
                           

                        It is NOT a government supervised monopoly like the broadcast media is. It is on this basis that the courts have consistantly ruled that the government has a right to supervise its content. The internet is also not a scarce resource ANYONE can hook a computer up to it without the government having anything to say about it. I dont see any holes in my argument

                        If Fox puts lies on its website I can put up my own website patterned after sweetjesusIhatebilloreilly.com. Call it sweetjesusIhateFOX.com and tell everyone what we think about it. What need would we have for the FCC to intervene? What holes? I thought everyone understood this already. YOU can make a website telling everyone how much you oppose the fairness doctrine, I can put one up telling everyone why I think you are wrong. A fairness docrtine for the internet would be superfluous

                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by thedevilsadvocate (October 20, 2006 3:38 pm ET)
                             

                          then where is the scarcity in cable? Please link anything you have regarding the FCC ever having a mandate over cable channels in this respect? I haven't been able to find it, but I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that if indeed the FCC interpeted the FD as carte blanche to dictate these sort of rules over the cable industry than scarcity really can't be the argument anymore. If scarcity isn't the argument, then your argument about the internet goes out the window in my opinion.

                          Thanks for the civil tone, I just think scope of FD in discussions about whether or not to bring the FD back are important to the debate.

                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by MHK (October 20, 2006 4:30 pm ET)
                               

                            I'm curious... What do you think the solution is on this issue? When newspapers, magazines, networks, and many of the cable stations are controlled by a small number of corporations or wealthy individuals do you honestly think a fair and complete message gets out to the public?

                            Some of us are not naive enough to believe that the free market is the answer to this situation or every situation. I would argue that just because something is popular or has good ratings that it in turn will have a positive effect on a well informed civil society. Fox News viewers are misinformed on a number of topics and we are not talking about opinion.

                            If you don't agree with the FD then what do you think the solution is?

                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by thedevilsadvocate (October 20, 2006 4:59 pm ET)
                                 

                              It's a very complex issue and corporate political misinformation is definately a problem.. I guess I truly believe the internet is the great equalizer.

                              (Although, I also strongly feel though that it is human nature that people tend to gravitate to media that most closely "seems" to match their ideology. )

                              Being the case that I think it is inevitable that the large majority of our population will have some access to the internet (in the very near future), I believe this problem will declined proportionately as cost of internet access and more free internet access is available to the public.

                              Once people have access to the internet and all of this alternate media, if they choose to still get their news from Fox or from CNN, do we really need legislation or the FCC dictating that people be fair in their political speech? I also have distrust that any government body could be legitimate in defining and recognizing personal attacks, except for the most blatant. (See O'Reilly's magical logic of how he doesn't do personal attacks)

                              I feel that this body would have to be slanted in one idealogical tilt or another to lobby any charges successfully (if it was a supposedly non partisian commitee) Otherwise a majority of the time it would be deadlocked. Then problem is that you only have one side being policed more than the other side.

                              My solution is to do nothing other than to force news media to carry the label that fits their agenda. Fox should not be allowed to use "Fair and Balanced". This I believe, would be the cheapest most effective thing that would be worthwhile for the tax payers to pay for.

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                              • Author by thedevilsadvocate (October 20, 2006 5:25 pm ET)
                                   

                                As much as I think that corporate misinformation is a problem.. I think that in the end the truth has been winning out in our media. Look at what has happened to the Bush administration.. look at the recent news. Somehow the word got out.. sure it took some time.. but the public obviously isn't buying the rosy picture that has been painted by some for so long.

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                                • Author by solon (October 20, 2006 6:56 pm ET)
                                     

                                  I would ask IF the fainess doctrine allowed for the alternate voice would it have taken this long for the truth to come out? Instead of seeping out through the cracks if people are exposed to BOTH sides of an argument at the same time and allowed to make their own decisions how can that be a bad thing? Instead people are exposed to three hours of Limbaugh followed by three hours of Savage and have to go looking for what the misinformation was. Why put that much of a burden on people. I do a lot of staying informed its my hobby, people work, they hunt and fish, if we WANT an informed electorate we really ought to not make it that hard to FIND the information or misinformation somewhere.

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                          • Author by thedevilsadvocate (October 20, 2006 5:33 pm ET)
                               

                            My point was that basic cable tv (which typically has at least one CNN channel, and Fox) is pretty accessible to the common joe, so I don't think there's really a scarcity argument there.

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                          • Author by solon (October 20, 2006 6:52 pm ET)
                               

                            And what consitutes scarce is subjective. The main argument which I cannot see how you missed is on the internet the whole argument is moot. I can all by myself buy some bandwidth and put up any rebuttal to any information I choose. OR just choose the right venue and make the argument public. So exactly what FUNCTION would the fairness doctrine serve under those circumstances?

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              • Author by dangrady (October 19, 2006 6:21 pm ET)
                   

                The Fairness Doctrine worked for 40 years, the Republicans had screamed they were left out of the commentary with a conspiracy theory about every comment made on every news broadcast. In fact there were a majority of liberal minds in broadcast news, and yet they bent over backwards to accommodate the Republican concerns.

                We have now de-regulated mega media moguls whom want nothing less than to control all the markets and their content for profit and they have a willing partner in this administration. This means our government is in bed with a corporate media that sees its future monopoly assured for their complicity. We have a common interest in the common airways that should not ever be in the hands of any mogul for any reason should we have any concern for our future as a Democracy.

                Air America Radio is leading in most of the markets it's in as far a ratings are concerned, that has not been the issue. The cost of maintaining a network whom owns no stations, and has little money to advertise from the beginning has thrived and lost a minute amount of money compared to the conservative nut jobs that corporate media has held up for years before they were a blip on the ratings.

                I dare say when the tide has turned people are going to wonder what they were thinking listening to the idiots, bigots, and hypocrites that makes up conservative radio talk.

                Happy Thoughts;

                Dan Grady

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    • Author by olivelawyers (October 19, 2006 3:14 pm ET)
         

      how many of those viewers that are "idiots" (scooter, supra) have real brains but don't seem to be able to use them to discern truth from fiction. Steinbeck said that man's greatest gift is the ability to know that a thing is not true, and still believe it (East of Eden), but I think it's our greatest curse.

      As long as Fox keeps spitting it out, those smart, self-deceiving people will continue to rely on it to justify their self-decption, reinforcing their remaining as the die-hard 30+/- % that will support any right wing policy or program. That's the same percentage of public support Adolf had when he was appointed Chancellor of then-democratic Germany.

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      • Author by BarryGoldwaterConservative (October 19, 2006 5:16 pm ET)
           

        A large portion of people who watch fox do not even realize it is even biased! Most people believe that the only viewers of this channel are trolls but I beg to differ. Not everyone who watches the news are political at all. I know many people who watch the channel and don't vote, nor they really care about the government. The ONLY reason in my opinion that Fox has been doing well is because it is so well known. I am willing to bet if more people knew about KO his ratings would shoot up!

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    • Author by nerzog (October 19, 2006 3:23 pm ET)
         

      The Republicans have skirted around the campaign finance laws in the past 3 or 4 elections. They receive untold hours of free advertising on talk radio alone, not to mention Fox News. And please, don't insult our intelligence by claiming that the Democrats get equal treatment from the "Liberal Media", because it just isn't true.

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      • Author by Sagra (October 19, 2006 3:48 pm ET)
           

        Without Fox, they'd have to take time away from the looting and actually do something to serve the public interest. Man, that'd be a pain.

        Report Abuse
    • Author by THEmole (October 19, 2006 3:44 pm ET)
         

      what do you expect from a fair and balanced news organization?

      Report Abuse
    • Author by njguy93 (October 19, 2006 4:20 pm ET)
         

      look like David Asman in that screenshot? David Asman is another FOX whore who usually goes under the radar, and doesn't get as much attention as the better-known Hume, Hannity, and O'Reilly. Figures that they look like each other. Two peas in a pod. By the way, Hannity did this last night with the Harry Reid ad that Republicans are now running. If CNN or MSNBC constantly played Democratic ads the way FOX does, the troglodytes and the people at FOX would be screaming bloody murder.

      THANK YOU. njguy93@yahoo.com

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    • Author by tman418 (October 19, 2006 5:08 pm ET)
         

      Plutonium production by North Korea stopped during Clinton's administration.

      Why didn't that guy at the end just answer Colme's question?

      And by the way, Democrats do not support abortion to kill black babies. It's the mother's choice, not the Democrats'. That guy was LYING when he said he was NOT trying to imply that democrats don't want black babies to to live.

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    • Author by nerzog (October 19, 2006 5:26 pm ET)
         

      Treat Fox News and Rush Limbaugh as what they are...commercials for the GOP...and apply the campaign finance restrictions accordingly. The GOP would have to report all that free air time as campaign contributions.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by rusty shackleford (October 19, 2006 5:33 pm ET)
           

        Hannity's recent blatant appeal to people to vote Republican surely runs afoul of campaign finance laws. It's shameless.

        Report Abuse
    • Author by sasami (October 19, 2006 7:22 pm ET)
         

      Lots of hubbub about liberals whining about ratings because no one wants to hear their "extremist" views. And yet.. why are ratings down across the board at Fox?

      Report Abuse
    • Author by Watcher_IL (October 19, 2006 7:39 pm ET)
         

      Is that the truth has begun to seep out and the incompetence of the administration and the corruption the GOP are being exposed. Since Fox has been providing cover for them, people are finally realizing that Fox is a part of the problem and don't want to hear their lame excuses anymore. At least this is my hope.

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    • Author by shrubshredder47158 (October 20, 2006 1:01 pm ET)
         

      Of course they are, they're not a legitimate news organization, they're fnc. They're lying scum. It's who they are, it's what they do. They're also desperate.

      Report Abuse
    • Author by shrubshredder47158 (October 20, 2006 1:05 pm ET)
         

      Well, at least they've got the ignorant trash vote. Of course, that's only 35 percent of the vote. Diebold can only do so much.

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