Beck, O'Reilly afraid to speak their minds around African-Americans
On the February 5 edition of his CNN Headline News program, Glenn Beck explained to White Guilt (HarperCollins, May 2006) author Shelby Steele why he thinks he -- Beck -- doesn't "have a lot of African-American friends": "I think part of it is because I'm afraid that I would be in an open conversation, and I would say something that somebody would take wrong, and then it would be a nightmare."
Additionally, on the February 5 edition of Fox News' The O'Reilly Factor, in a conversation about President Bush's description of Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL) as "articulate," host Bill O'Reilly told Temple University education professor Marc Lamont Hill: "Instead of black and white Americans coming together, white Americans are terrified. They're terrified. Now we can't even say you're articulate? We can't even give you guys compliments because they may be taken as condescension?" Later in the segment, after Hill said that "we live in a world where black intelligence is called into question even at the highest levels," O'Reilly asserted: "[Y]ou're generalizing. Do you know how often my intelligence is called into question, Doctor?" Hill replied: "I can't imagine why, Bill."
Think Progress also noted both discussions on its website.
From the February 5 edition of CNN Headline News' Glenn Beck:
BECK: You know, I -- Shelby, I don't know if anybody else in the audience -- oh, this is just going to be a blog nightmare over the next few days -- but let me just be honest and play my cards face up on the table.
I was thinking about this just last week. I don't have a lot of African-American friends, and I think part of it is because I'm afraid that I would be in an open conversation, and I would say something that somebody would take wrong, and then it would be a nightmare. Am I alone in feeling that?
From the February 5 edition of Fox News' The O'Reilly Factor:
O'REILLY: I got to tell you, I got to tell you, President Bush is as surprised as I am that, when he said Senator Obama is articulate -- that was taken in a derogatory way.
I know the man, and I know -- I could see his delivery with [Fox News host Neil] Cavuto. There was no condescension.
Listen, I know what you're saying and I agree. There's a lot of condescension in the white establishment community toward black people in this country. It's true. It's true. And if he were to say, "Well, he's pretty articulate. Wow, I'm stunned," then you'd be right.
But you know, what's happening, and this -- let's strip it all away -- this is the "No Spin Zone."
HILL: Yeah, absolutely, I'm doing my best not to spin it --
O'REILLY: Instead of black and white Americans coming together, white Americans are terrified. They're terrified. Now we can't even say you're articulate? We can't even give you guys compliments because they may be taken as condescension?
HILL: But part of that -- Bill, part of that terror -- part of that terror comes from having to seriously confront issues of race and perhaps even racism. The fact of the matter is, we live in a world where black intelligence is called into question even at the highest levels.
So when someone like Barack Obama -- when it becomes noteworthy that he's able to clearly express his ideas, that is cause for people, particularly white people, to reassess the way they view not just Barack Obama but the larger masses of black people against which he is being compared.
O'REILLY: Yeah, well -- but you're generalizing. Do you know how often my intelligence is called into question, Doctor?
HILL: Oh, absolutely, but you're -- absolutely. And I can't imagine why.
O'REILLY: You know -- I mean, do I -- do I think --
HILL: I can't imagine why, Bill.
O'REILLY: Right. Come on!
HILL: But the difference is -- but the difference is your -- Bill, the difference is your intelligence does not have any bearing upon the way other whites are seen.
O'REILLY: Oh, I don't know about that.
HILL: Unfortunately, black intelligence is connected -- oh, absolutely. Bill, when I watch you on television, I don't say that all white people are condescending or all white people are uncivil or all white people talk over people. Not to say that you do those things. That's just an example.
But my point is with someone like Barack Obama, he represents something bigger than himself, and so when -- and it's not just Barack Obama. Every day, black people who have achieved certain levels of education or [inaudible], are often called articulate.
I almost want to watch this clip, just to see this:
It's pretty obvious to any rational person that Bush wasn't being racist in the comment that he made. He is simply jealous of Obama, because Obama is very articulate, and well, Bush can't even pronounce the word "nuclear" correctly. The PC crowd is completely nuts on this one.
Who was talking about Bush?
rinoplasty...if, by 'PC', you mean politically correct, you are missing the point of race relations in the modern era...Let's say you are a good hunter, but you only hunt rhinos, and these OTHER hunters, who hunt quail, whether they are good at it or not, come up to you and say...'Hey, dude- you are a pretty good hunter...for a RHINO HUNTER..HAHAHA'- would you feel insulted..? You should because they are only looking at ONE ASPECT of your character, your hunting of rhinos, as oppossed to EVERYTHING else that makes you a good hunter such as: patience, skill, strenght, etc...to say that one is afraid to REALLY say what they want around others implies they feel GUILT about what is on their minds...And if one is feeling GUILT about talking about ONE aspect of one's character, perhaps they should take a step back and scrutinize why they feel they have to keep bringing up just that ONE aspect...
I need to make something clear here. The term RINO refers to Republican In Name Only. You are confusing that with the animal RHINO! My username suggests that I want to weed out all of the liberals from the Republican Party. Just so you know.
Why did you drop the truth detector tag? Couldn't detect any truth in the republican party so you decided to engage in witch hunts?
We know... we just don't care.
Actually, it suggests you'd like to murder people in your political party who disagree with you.
Sir, please don't attack my President. You have every right to disagree with him, but don't insult his intellegence. You Liberal bigots are the ones who are nuts.
Point of clarity. RinoHunter is actually a Conservative "bigot" as you say.
but Duck's reflexes work well huh?
"Stay cool, and don't believe anything the Bush administration tells you."
-George Carlin
How can you insult something that does not exist.
Bush is a moron. Accept it.
Right, we can't insult Bush's intelligence.....there's none there to insult.
These guys are idiots... Poor white guys, huh?
If someone came up to me and said, "You know, you're the first articulate, clean, mainstream Greek guy out there"... Uh, yeah... that's a bit offensive. Biden is a champ at putting his foot in his mouth.
This is classic that O'Reilly and Dumbguy Beck use this as a podium to claim 'poor white guy'. What jerks.
Phyllo,
"If someone came up to me and said, "You know, you're the first articulate, clean, mainstream Greek guy out there"...
Keyword........"if"
And, your point is?
That's exactly what Biden said about Obama. He (and AA's) have every right to feel insulted or take that dumb comment any way they like.
And, although phyllo (filo) dough may be paperthin... my point is not :)
Phyllo,
Point was obvious,
You are right about Biden. Elected officials have to choose their words like a sculptor.
What a shame politics is filled with Politicians
By the way Phyllo, good job on the hoops thing.
So you have two white guys at least bringing up race relations and what thanks do they have, you guys attacking like a crack dealers starved Pit Bull.
Good job.
Is that your idea of bringing up race relations. Saying they are scared of the scary minorities because they are afraid they cant control their bigotry? Thats like saying I am bringing up the war by saying rightwing warmongers should explain why we need to get more Americans killed in Iraq. The frame is already indicitive of what is really being said. They pine for the good old days when them darkies knew their place and didnt complain when their betters made bigotted observations about them
You are assuming facts not in evidence I dont hate anybody. I disagree with them and recognize their bigotry. There is nothing personal here for me. I dont know these guys. We arent going to take long walks in the moonlight and we arent going to do lunch.
"Bill, when I watch you on television, I don't say that all white people are condescending or all white people are uncivil or all white people talk over people. Not to say that you do those things. That's just an example."
Priceless!
I don't have a lot of African-American friends, and I think part of it is because I'm afraid that I would be in an open conversation, and I would say something that somebody would take wrong, and then it would be a nightmare. - the Hate Muppet
Maybe something like "How do you African-Americans feel about being an idle people, full of mischief and subtlety? Is your cursedness working out okay for you?"
What's classic...
This is a study in denial... They don't have many AA friends because they'd be too afraid to say something wrong? So, it's the AA's fault?
The level to which these guys will pass the buck for their own personal failings is just embarrassing.
Exactly. "The reason I don't have any black friends isn't because I'm a loudmouth jerk, it's because they're too sensitive."
That's exactly why I don't have any wing-nut friends White ones or otherwise. Not much in the way of intellectual stimulation coming from people like Beck. Boy I might end thinking out loud that maybe just maybe wing nuts are dumb stupid idiots and then that would be misunderstood.
Exactly. But...then again... I'm not sure you'd want to be misunderstood ;-)
Nice LDS reference, Rusty. I keep coming back to this in my mind; How am I supposed to take Beck seriously as a commentator on history and culture when I know what he believes as a Mormon? Sorry; I just can't get there from here.
"...I keep coming back to this in my mind; How am I supposed to take Beck seriously as a commentator on history and culture when I know what he believes as a Mormon? Sorry; I just can't get there from here."
How utterly intolerant. Think of it this way: If this was about an African American would you substitute 'because he's black' instead of 'Mormon'?
To me, that's hypocrisy
Wrong. Being black doesn't mean you believe a bunch of crazy sh*t, like Jesus came to America.
Mormonism is a choice. Being black isn't.
Sorry, I was responding to TrollFella57.
Great, so you mind when I rip on Muslims.
I don't care when you rip on the stupid sh*t they believe.
Tell that to justin Timberfake
"Wrong. Being black doesn't mean you believe a bunch of crazy sh*t, like Jesus came to America." -Rusty.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Has anyone here been offered a Book of Mormon by any of the Mormon missionaries that walk around? When they offered me one, I said "Sure". (I do try to be openminded about things and I have some acquaintances that are Mormon. Maybe it would help me understand their point of view.) Then the missionaries asked me what time they could come meet and read it with me. It seems they won't just give me the Book of Mormon. They need to read it with me. I finally told them I wasn't interested if that was a condition. Weird.
Dude...
The issue is racism. Beck and O'Reilly are racist, yet they blame it on everything and everyone else. Are there intolerant or racist Black/AA people? Of course. But, not all, many, majority, etc... To shovel folks into piles of people without faces, ideas or individuality is racism at its core. Racism should not be tolerated by any group. Period.
If Beck or O'Reilly can't not be racist, who's fault is that?
I'm not sure being Mormon has much to do with Beck's brand of stupidity... he's a convert by the way. I grew up surrounded by Mormons in rural Arizona. There is certainly an element of intolerant thought/behavior toward outsiders, I can tell you that. But, if you're willing to join... that usually falls by the wayside (for the most part). They convert millions every year. I was never interested. But, I know others who converted -- simply to be more accepted or do better in school sports, etc. That's no lie. It's a strange biz, the Mormon religion.
It certainly is a popular religion; I guess they've done a good job of marketing the "feel good" aspect of it over the looney belief aspect. I just don't understand how people can accept some of its bizarre teachings. But then, I don't see how anyone can believe that the Earth is only 6000 years old, or that evil came into the world because a talking serpent convinced Eve to eat a fruit...oh, well.
Exactly... Suspending disbelief is part and parcel of 'faith'/religion. Personally, I don't really get it. My loss? I don't know...
Whitey nerzog,
"or that evil came into the world because a talking serpent convinced Eve to eat a fruit...oh, well."
Adam and Eve disobeyed God thus Evil, All men now have to get job(thanks Eve) all women suffer in child birth and the serpent must now eat dust all the days of his life.
so whats so hard to believe about all of that?
If we all just stuck close to the ten commandments then guess what?
No prisons
No Aids
No stds
no Orphans
No Al Franken
Just call me a dreamer.
I'll cleave to the Golden Rule.
Thank you and have a nice day. = )
Same deal if we all followed Sharia law. Didn't realize you were an Islamofascist, Toobed (or whatever it is today).
Sounds good but not at all true,
likewise, have a wonderful day.
No orphans? You mean if people stuck to the 10 commandments no parents would ever die of diseases, car accidents, or plane crashes? Wow who knew. At least we would be without screechmonkeys like Limbaugh, Savage, Coulter and Beck
I knew somene would say that, fish never learn.
My meaning was obvious as your pounce.
My pounce was obvious because THAT part of your post was ludicrous. I dont care HOW moral the world became there would still be orphans. As for fish never learning I could say the same about rightwingnuts.
When I think of racist Arizona Mormons, Evan Mecham comes to mind...
Yep. I'm not sure that state will ever live down electing that dope Governor. He gives W a good run for his money.
Exactly. People are born black. They are not born Mormon. Religious idiocy, like bigotry, is a chosen lifestyle.
Besides, I didn't say he was a bad guy...just not credible as a commentator on history and culture.
what exactly do you know about Beck's beliefs? Have you talked to him about this?
Yes, we chat about Mormonism every day over decaf tea and crumpets.
Maybe you should try the caffeine then. It might help you generate substance in your posts.
Well, to believe that Jesus wandered the New World, preaching to the natives, when those natives have NO tradition of it ever happening, isn't a sign of intelligence. It's a sign of gullibility. But then so is believing some guy wandered around Judea 2000 years ago raising the dead with a touch of his hand is also a sure sign of gullibility.
...like believing that humankind can manipulate one of earth's countless warming cycles over millions of years....
There is scientific evidence that humans have contributed to global warming. There is no evidence that Jesus raised the dead other than unsubstantiated second- or third-hand accounts.
I'll own up. My temperature is 98.6------above earth's atmospheric mean temp, to be sure.
What to do? To get that feelgood effect, think I'll sign a treaty that'll export more jobs to countries not penalized by said treaty.
My mistake. I thought you were equating the gullibility of people who believe in defensible interpretations of observable physical phenomena with the gullibility of people who believe in the absolute truth of ancient folk tales.
Referencing those who are ready to place their faith in the New Scientific Method. That's the one where, as long as a study has been sanctified by the U.N., hypothesis can become slam-dunk scientific law when "likelihood of proof" moves from 75 to 90%, as in the latest irreproachable inquiry.
That's good--a 75, or maybe kinda sorta 90% chance becomes a definite maybe. Nice round numbers. Strict scientific method.
Always AM attracted to people of faith, though. And faith-based Anthropogenic Global Warming, why not?
If you think the "strict scientific method" requires the production of certainties rather than probabilities when dealing with future events, then you don't know nearly as much about science as you obviously do about economics.
I suppose if your doctor told you there's a 90% chance you'll have a heart attack if you don't change your ways, you'd reject the advice because it's not a scientific certainty that you'll have a heart attack. C'est la vie, it's your choice what to believe.
Attempting to follow your analogy here. Lessee, if I think I might have a heart attack, I should make it illegal for YOU to eat a steak, right?
No, the analogy had to do with probabilities versus certainty, and how you rejected the IPCC report out-of-hand because 75-90% probability was not scientifically sound enough for you. I pointed out that 75-90% probability would probably be plenty sound enough for you in situations in which you did not have a political stake.
But why am I arguing science with an economist? Might as well argue science with an astrologer or phrenologist or priest.
Thirty years ago, it was the global cooling hysteria. The earth's atmosphere warms and cools in cycles, just the way God created it to do.
Don't forget to cash that $10,000 check from Exxon.
Cashed it last week. Just got another one today. It's nice to be rich!!!
There was never a global cooling 'hysteria' there were a few articles talking about it. There was NEVER a scientific consensus about global cooling. You have NO POINT
Well Goodfella57
I have trouble supporting any religion that teaches hate as a way of life. I am currently helping a young gay mormon deal with the problems that he is going through with his family.
Do you realize that because he "came out of the closet" to his family and group of friends, that right now not only is he excommunicated from the church, but his family has been ordered to disown him. If they do not refuse to talk to him or interect with him at all, they could also face excommunication as well. So basically he has lost most of his family (only one sister still talks to him) and a large number of friends who are also mormon.
Sound like really fun people to me. Want to defend the KKK next? maybe some neo-nazis? I mean, if I dislike the hatred they preach, that is really intolerant of me, isn't it?
You are to be commended. This guy needs your unconditional acceptance as a fellow human being, whether you approve of a gay lifestyle or conduct, or not. Lack of such acceptance diminishes us all.
If you're telling the truth, McCain, and the Mormon church has a policy of excommunicating homosexuals, then they've got serious problems.
Different McCain,
You said:
Of course that's horrible and I would hope it is a local Mormon church advocating the excommunication and doesn't reflect the entire Mormon faith. Look, individual people (and small groups like local churches) behave badly all the time - that's not a reason to condemn the whole religion (or sexual preference, or race, or gender, or even political affiliation).
I mean, there's that crazy church in Kansas claiming to be Christian that celebrates the death of US soldiers. That clearly does NOT reflect the view of ANY mainstream Christian church.
If Glenn Beck ever advocated that gay people be excommunicated from the church, or family, I would be right there with you in condemning that behavior.
But then again, I'm just a "troll".
Now this is interesting. These two cannot speak their minds around Black people because, I don't know, maybe what has already been said kinda makes Black people want to beat them senseless? Beck with no Black friends? Never tried, but probably doesn't want any. If they want to be unafraid, they need to stop doing the things they do. And atone for their sins by saying that they won't do or say the things that they are saying anymore. It will take several days, possibly months. Then become the biggest advocates for people of color. Wouldn't that be nice?
I'm glad to see this discussion on race being so thoughtfully addressed by the ever insightful wing-nuts, I wonder if it's in honor of Black History month? They want to have a real dialogue about how uncomfortable Black people make regular guys feel.
They want to have a real dialogue about how uncomfortable Black people make regular guys feel.
That is awesome, Lynn. Probably exactly how they think of it, too.
That's the scary part.
To a wingnut, these are "regular guys".
Hey Lynn, you got it. Must be that time of the year again. But I am going to say it again, just like Jabba the Rush, these two have deep desires to get with people of color. They do, and especially Bill because he has a real freaky side to him. You know how it goes, you fight against the thing you want most. They are just frontin'. Every racist deep down knows what they are saying is wrong, but can't come to grips that they must change their ways. And Beck knows that he is absolutely irrelevant and that his plug is going to get pulled soon, it's just a matter of time.
Papi_Gross,
"Jabba the Rush"
on a thread about racism you denigrate another based on appearance. An appearance now agreed largely decided by genetics.
hypocrisy- disease of the healthy and pillar of Liberal mind
"An appearance now agreed largely decided by genetics." --nostalgic.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I think it is wrong to attack Rush Limbaugh &al. ad hominem. I will agree to that, but unless you are Rush's personal physician, you cannot know precisely what factors determine whether Rush's "appearance now agreed largely decided by genetics". Are all fat people fat because of genetics? Considering there is much more obesity in America than in other places on a per capita basis, I would doubt genetics is even a large factor.
Mississippi is the fattest state in the union because of the genetic differences between Mississippians and other Americans, and not because we love fried food and don't exercise.
WHICH Mississipians?
The fat ones.
OK.
Blind,
I'll say it again,
You bring a breath of fresh air with you , there must be a conservative lurking somewhere in you.
Ask lynn to stop flagging, she had some good stuff removed and left some silly ramblings.
Lynn never posts silly ramblings would t'were I could say the same about you
"When I'm at the ATM at night, I'm not lookin' over my shoulder for black people. I'm lookin' over my shoulder for niggas." - Chris Rock, famous funny black guy
This discussion started about race, about Glenn Beck's concern about saying something that might offend blacks. While what he said is awkward, I don't think it merits MM's attention. Words only have the power we give them. I can type nigg-er nigg-er nigg-er here all I want and it means nothing. I can type cracker, uncle tom, juero, kyke, spik, honkey, whatever.
I think Glenn's point is that almost anything can be construed as an insult or racist comment if you are not careful. What is frustrating is that middle-age white guys can be lambasted to no end and noone cares... but make fun of a black person, muslim or homosexual and the friggin scy starts to fall down.
Then be careful what you say. Be respectful and authentic, it will show. Mask your feelings behind false or fearful niceties, it will show. I'm not going to get bent out of shape over white dudes being laughed at given history of pop culture heaping mockery upon minorities. Besides, to quote most every Beck, O'reilly, Limbaugh apologist, "where is your sense of humor? Lighten up, grow a thicker skin, don't be such a PC sissiy...."
White people, especially white conservatives, have no credibility on race isues so why even go down the road?
Bruce,
That isn't true. I must confess something, I was very ignorant about conservatives and that was my bad. My impression of what it was to be conservative came from people like Limbaugh, Beck, Savage, and O'rielly. I live in a very Democratic state and until recently I didn't know any real live conservatives, (I tell you that lack of exposure to other people causes problems.) I know now that there are thoughtful, rational conservatives and I consider you one of them, but you know that guys like Bill and Glen aren't. They’re not even trying to be, their whole shtick is I'm just a dumb “regular” guy. (This should actually beinsulting to regular guys) You also know that Rush is intentionally provocative. I certainly hope that thoughtful and reasonable conservatives like you out number the Savages and Rushs of the country and thankfully I can distinguish those conservatives when I meet them.Well thank you Lynn I appreciate that. I still think that if a caucasian says something on a race issue that a minority disagrees with, it would be extremely difficult for that caucasian to convince the minority to change their opinion which is why I think theres a credibility problem for caucasians on race. There's life experiences involved that we can't possibly know.
Bruce,
But it's important to have a discussion and get things out in the open from all sides; it isn't a discussion if only one side is talking. But we should come to the table with an open mind and a serious mind I might add. Bill and Beck aren’t serious and they don’t want to have a serious discussion. They seem to long for what they think would be the comfort and ease of a homogenous society. Of course that isn’t possible this is America and we are an ethnically diverse society and that isn’t going to change; but I wish these morons would realize we all have the commonality of being human.Actually its not difficult having discussions on race with people if you treat then with with respect and as individuals. Try asking honest, respectful and thoughtful questions and you will find that most people are willing to discuss pretty much any topic.
White people, especially white conservatives, have no credibility on race isues so why even go down the road?
What a racist statement. You are saying that the color of one's skin dictates whether or not they can speak intelligently about the topic of racism? I think your statement is completely false. Do you like football? Wait... you haven't played in the NFL so I guess you aren't qualified to talk about football.
I am white. I grew up on the black side of my town. My high school was 65% black when I graduated, it is now 90% black. I was the only white kid on my school bus for most of my highschool years. We all got along great. I am also a musician and I tend to play lots of black clubs due to my style of play. Usually I'm one of just a few white people around. I've been subject to a lot of discrimination and personal violence due to the color of my skin. I've been mugged, assaulted, taunted, etc. I've also been praised and accepted by the same community.
Your statement doesn't fly, but thanks for playing.
Bruce is a white (I think) conservative so I think he was being tongue-in-cheek.
I am neither uncomfortable nor terrified around my black friends because I know I am not a racist thus have nothing to hide. Were I to inadvertantly make a racially insensative remark I am sure they would take in the context of who I am and either not take offense knowing none was meant or call me on it and we could talk about it. Beck and O'Reilly are terrified because they KNOW they are racists and what terrifies them is they are insecure in their ability to hide their inner bigot.
I was thinking the same thing... I've definitely put my foot in my mouth around Black/AA friends in the past... and, they usually give me hell for it and have a good laugh (deservedly, at my expense). But, there is no malice on my part... just programming.
I was listening to Randi Roades the other day and she was talking about Biden's comment ... and, I think she's right. Biden didn't mean anything by what he said. He's just programmed... He definitely deserves to be corrected and he's apologized. But, is he a racist? I doubt it.
So then why is Beck a racist if he never said anything about Indians or African-Americans that comes close to as racist sounding as what Biden has said -- or Hillary for that matter?
Solon,
Excellent assessment as usual. You know what though, maybe they are indeed fearful since one of the stereotypes about Blacks is that we are violent, so maybe they are really scared they might get punched in the nose.
Here's what gets me, Lynn. Why would people think that about us? Guilt more than fear. They think about the injustice and worry that we will snap on everyone that way. Don't give a reason for a punch in the nose and it doesn't happen. It's funny that after the slaves were freed after the Civil War, the white folks thought we were going to exact revenge on them. It's that guilt coupled with fear that caused the KKK to rise and other things (Jim Crow). I have got an incredible idea. What would happen if the folks that broke the system fixed the system so that there wouldn't be a punch in the nose?
It's an excellent point. That discussion of former slaves exacting revenge on Whites if and when they were freed was around for a hundred years or more prior to the final emancipation of the slaves. The Whites truly feared retaliation. It's the same fear that I hear in the voices of right wingers when they talk about the browning of our nation. They are terrified of being in the minority, which is strange since they always assert that minorities have the same opportunities as White Americans and that discrimination is not a problem. If that's true than what difference doe it makes which group is in the majority?
Well, it's because the world is a-changing and it's changing faster than some people can understand. What I believe is happening is greater than just what is happening here in the US. If you saw what happened in England over Shilpa Shetty, it's just a precursor to the fall of white supremacy and imperialism. China, India, South America gaining strength in their economies. Globalization. It's forcing people to have to learn and have relationships with each other. And on the world stage, white people are the MINORITY. This current generation of people coming up (after the baby boomers) are more open to interracial relationships, and provided that they have not been taught wrong, want to date, get married, have babies and all that other good stuff. They don't care. I tell you Lynn, once the baby boomers are gone and that old gaurd passes on, the browning out will continue. It's scary to those who thought that they would reign forever over the human race. That is why a lot of conservatives think the way they think, because that is all that they have to hold on to to feel good about themselves and have relavance, on a global stage that is increasingly filled with people that they once derided.
Now hold on Bruce, not all white people are in the boat, just the ignorant ones like the vast majority of white conservatives. It all comes down to whether or not a person really wants to come into a situation with an open mind and a willingness to learn. We all have things in common, and it's just a matter of humbling oneself so each party can learn. That's it, period. I approach everything like that, because "all", "every", person or situation is different. Oh, and why go down the road? Because this is a road that needs to finally get fixed.
In your opinion, what % of white people are racist? What % of white conservatives are racist? I have no idea, I just know the perception is that it's very high. So really, why would you take seriously anything that comes out of our mouths regarding race? If there's no credibility on our part, then we are better off doing less talking and more listening.
I am of the opinion that all white people (of which I am one...), by dint of growing up in this culture, are racist to a greater or lesser degree. I am not saying we are all bad, or evil (that would be foolish), but I truly believe that there is not a one of us who hasn't had a racist thought (however fleeting), laughed at a racist joke, etc. And I think we all support the racist culture in which we live because it works just fine for us.
I think one of the biggest problems we face now as a society is that so much racism is polite, quiet, below-the-surface racism. And as such, it's that much harder to extirpate. So, I self-identify as an anti-racist, not as someone who is not racist. I think it keeps me humble and reminds me of the work left to do.
--my $0.02
I agree, Val. I admit to being a little bit racist sometimes, though much less than I used to be. I changed when I started to actually work with and among people of color and learned about them and their perspective. It takes a conscious effort to change one's ways. Beck is too lazy to make the effort, I guess.
It would have been more honest of him to say "I'm uncomfortable talking to African-Americans because, like many people, I'm still a bit of a racist and I'm afraid I'll say something stupid." Instead he had to make it all the black people's fault.
Bruce, racism in terms of a % calculation is hard to quantify, but not impossible to assess if folks are honest about it. This country was founded upon the belief that the founding fathers (who were white) were superior to everyone else. I was surprised that Benjamin Franklin used to gauge the desireability and class of white people based on the paleness of their skin. In his view, the more pale you were, the better the lineage. I was shocked. Racism is another extension of the class differentiations that started with the feudal system in England. The basics are the same: find a variable that can give justification for one group of people to subjegate another group.
It's not like it went away after the folks came to America, the rules changed slightly. When the Indians met the white folks, they helped them. If they had respect for them, they would have shared. But no, the white folks said, "I want your land and you will die." Goodbye Indians. Then this whole slavery issue. "Wow, we need workers, but we don't want to pay." That's automatic disrespect and dehumanization. Nobody should work for free. But in order to justify doing a wrong thing, they had to find a reason. And bingo, Africans are less than human. Never mind that we made the Pyramids, mathematics, governmental systems, etc. So there go the boats, there goes the elimination of worth and identity, division of families, death, destruction and disenfranchisement. Not to mention the beatings and blood. Well that ended, then came Jim Crow and the segregated South. Then the Civil Rights movement. It was a movement to counter the disrespect and dehuminization. If all men are created equal as the Constitution says, then we would not have these problems would we? Because if I treat you as an equal and not a subordinate, I value you and respect you as I do myself. I would not look at you as a color, I look at you as a man. And that is what we have to get to across the board. When you no longer look at people as colors, you treat everyone with the same care and diligence as you would want to be treated. You try to get past the shell and get to the heart immediately, because at the end of the day, we are all the same.
Thanks for your response. The history is very ugly. I think it's going to take a few more generations (maybe more) to get to a true colorblind society but hopefully we are moving in the right direction. My girlfriend is Guyanese so she has dark skin and we do get some occasional strange looks (usually from the 60+ age group) although not nearly as many as we would have twenty or thirty years ago.
Yeah Bruce, I know what you're saying. If you want to talk rainbow, I am half AA, half white and my wife is Puerto Rican (African, Indian, Spanish European). Most of my Latin brothers and sisters think I am around the way, so they bring the Spanish. This is what America should be.
"I was surprised that Benjamin Franklin used to gauge the desireability and class of white people based on the paleness of their skin. In his view, the more pale you were, the better the lineage. I was shocked"
Actually, just a side note to that. I (and a few others) think that Ben Franklin's ideas about the paleness of skin, was less about race and more about work. As in people who are "intellectuals" are less likely to be found working outside.
The lower status of manual laborers (i.e. serfs) were an idea left over from europe. Why do you think many court figures bleed themselves, used white make up, etc. to appear more pale (almost sickly)?
Exactly ADM, and an excellent point. That's why racism and classism are the same with the only change between the two being the controlling variable. When white people see that here in the US, and especially now, that the people at the top of the economic pyramid view them the same way as they view people of color, and it becomes very blatant, then things can change. It is all about controlling the population and resources. Kanye West said after Katrina, "George Bush does not care about Black people, " which is true, but the more truthful statement should be, "George Bush does not care for people that are not in his socio-economic class. This includes White people." And when we observe the assault on the middle class, which is the backbone of a strong economy and nation, it only proves that he, his family, and that very small percentage at the top do not care. If a person is White and silly rich, and another person who is White who just happens to be average were to sit together, they are not on equal footing and the average person (depending on the character of Mr. Warbucks) will be looked down upon. Classism. It happens everyday. Now the delusion that has been institutionalised into America is that White people are superior and anyone else is inferior. This keeps everyone fighting one another at the lower than rich economic levels, and this allows maintenance and expansion of wealth at the very top levels. If people are fighting each other, they cannot fight the real problem. And all the while, the rich get richer. As the pie gets smaller at the lower levels, the fighting continues, and the people who know how to exploit get richer again. After a certain point it is no longer about profit being the motivator, it's about control of the populace. Same game (slavery) but done a different way.
Popi is right,
more than he knows, it is largely now about class.
Mortgaging your future on the past is pointless . living a meaningless life does far more damage to ancestors than any past injustice.
It is frankly impossible to have an honest open discussion about race in the PC world. Try it at work - fired. Try it at school - you fail or worse.
Try it on a Lib Blog - you're dead meat
My recommendation is get away from RACE and discuss culture, there is after-all one race - the human race.
and Popi, the KKK rose up because ignorant people in power believed much like you do. Sorry , that is not an insult, they believe that Black peoples minds were incapable of serious thought and felt they had the right to treat them worse than animals.
your answer seems to be that when they loose power they will feel what it's like to be dominated. That may be true but it is no answer.
Remember for all the Fools who defended slavery in the south three times as many GOOD white boys left their homes, family and life to defeat it. giving theirs lives without regret.
So please talk about Culture and not skin color, and then we can ask real questions that may actually help someone.
C'mon, Nostalgic, Mr. Ten Commandments what's with the Popi dig?
Anyway, I would argue that the Civil War was fought over economics, namely the South's exploitation of cheap labor more so than altruism. The Emancupation Proclamation was not introduced until northern abolitionists like Frederick Douglas et. al. doggedly beseeched Lincoln to free the slaves. The Emancupation Proclamation was not issued for two or three years after the war started. What took so long?
And if the north was such the well intentioned group of white folks, why the white flight in response to the African diaspora?
As to the mention of PC strictures, why argue for relativism? Is it not relativism to cede the belief that every person deserves respectful dialogue? Can we not keep a civil and respectful tongue while being honest with one another?
House,
"Anyway, I would argue that the Civil War was fought over economics"
I am sure you would and do argue that and you would be wrong in the aspect that it is taught as the "real" reason for the war.
please read Carl Sandburg's "Lincoln: the prairie years and the war years"
if you still want to profess your opinion as fact then too bad for you.
"Lincoln and the North entered the war to preserve the Union rather than to free the slaves, but within a relatively short time emancipation became an accepted war aim. Neither Congress nor the president knew exactly what constitutional powers they had in this area; according to the Dred Scott decision, they had none. But Lincoln believed that the Constitution gave the Union whatever powers it needed to preserve itself, and that he, as commander-in-chief, had the authority to use those powers.
In the fall of 1862, after the Union army victory at Antietam, Lincoln issued a preliminary proclamation, warning that on January 1, 1863, he would free all the slaves in those states still in rebellion. Intended as a war and propaganda measure, the Emancipation Proclamation had far more symbolic than real impact, because the federal government had no means to enforce it at the time. But the document clearly and irrevocably notified the South and the world that the war was being fought not just to preserve the Union, but to put an end to the peculiar institution. Eventually, as Union armies occupied more and more southern territory, the Proclamation turned into reality, as thousands of slaves were set free by the advancing federal troops."
[link to usinfo.state.gov]
Round,
It is so much deeper than i can convey,
if you and/or most folks on this site do not believe in "sin" and the effect slavery had on America's existence in Lincolns mind what can i say?
Lincoln believed the War was lost as an act of God unless he freed the slaves - against all convention.
Thanks for your thoughts, N. We can definitely agree to agree that the topic is more complicated than we can convey.
Round,Actually Lincoln's attitude about the war and slavery evolved considerably over the length of the war and his presidency. Read the text of his second inauguration and some of his personal writings on the topic can be found in the Lincoln memorial in D.C. I was down there this summer so I’ve recently read it. Lincoln actually believed that the civil war and the resulting suffering from the war was God’s punishment to America for (he felt the North was being punished as for it’s inaction to stop slavery) having allowed slavery to exist. That said Lincoln indeed was a racist, he obviously believed in the supremacy of the White race and he said so, it probably was difficult for a White person not to be a racist during that time since racism was socialized to be the norm, it was part of mainstream culture. This is why I never pay any attention to posters here when they would chastise me for not being in what they considered the mainstream. The mainstream is often the wrong stream. I did see a great evolution of both Lincoln and Benjamin Franklin on race issues. Pappi touched on a Franklin statement yesterday which was pretty racist, but if you read the later works of BF the evolution of his feelings about race is obvious. BF actually funded a school for Blacks as an experiment. The Black kids were given the same level of education as a comparable level of white kids and they performed comparably. That had a profound impact of BF and his feelings about slavery. Lincolns growing friendship with Frederick Douglass also seem to further propel forward thinking about assumptions of AA intellectual capacity. Seeing the growth in these men over the span of their lives tells me if these guys were around today I can pretty much guess what their political leanings would be. Actually they were the Liberals of their times.
Good post. Actually great give and take exchange from both of you. Nice to read.
Thanks for the comments, Lynn. Without a doubt, Franklin and Lincoln were progressive liberals in comparison to a large portion of their peers. My point was somewhat narrow in its scope. As Nostalgic glossed over, altruism was not the only or even primary factor in the initial cause for war. So, I supported my opinion with specific evidence. That is not to say progressive minded, human rights advocates were nonexistent at the time. Thankfully, abolitionists were active and morally persuasive. Even more fortunate for all of us, we had a president in Lincoln who understood compassion and was willing to evolve in his personal beliefs.
There are many people of color who, by your definition, are of an idle or upper class. They decided to scrap the old concept a finite-sized "pie" that everybody gets to fight over. They decided to make their own pie.
I'm not looking at it from a distance. I'm white, my spouse has black blood, my brother-in-law is Black Cuban, my nephew is Chipweyan Indian/German-Irish-Welsh, his son is half Filipino, my other brother-in-law is Cree Indian/Czeck.
Not an uncommon mix today. As we go along, we learn from one another, and they have shown me things I could not possibly have known if we didn't have this mix.
On just an economic level, I have learned from them to make my own pie. They're mostly of higher economic station than I, at this point.
Gee, that's funny. Neither Beck nor O'Reilly mentioned that some of their best friends are Negroids. They must be slipping.
Here's the most priceless part of the entire piece :
O'REILLY: Yeah, well -- but you're generalizing. Do you know how often my intelligence is called into question, Doctor?
HILL: Oh, absolutely, but you're -- absolutely. And I can't imagine why.
O'REILLY: You know -- I mean, do I -- do I think --
HILL: I can't imagine why, Bill.
O'REILLY: Right. Come on!
===============================================
Ouch!!!
For the record:
Beck distrusts American Muslims, resents Mexicans and is afraid to even speak to blacks because he knows he is most likelygoing to say something ignoran, instinctively no less.
If it walks like a bigot and talks like a bigot......
My theory...
I suspect that Beck and O'Reilly are reluctant to say anything in the presence of a black man out of fear that the black man has a razor in his shoe. I'm pretty sure Beck and O'Reilly wouldn't want to leave their white women alone around a black man either. ;>)
Everytime I hear Bill O or Beck I can't help but think how low our standards have sunk in terms of news / journalism.
It's beyond belief that the Glenn Becks of the world can get a television show on CNN Headline News. Isn't he better off on something like Entertainment Tonight or the Cartoon Channel?
No, they have standards of quality.
Run! There is a black man in the room.
The president is a moron. He says stupid things. And when he gets caught, blames it on the PC crowd for dumbing him down even more.
Let's face it, this is a relief and excuse for O'Rielly it let's him not express his views on race, for fear of retaliation from this fantom black menace.
At the same time, provide cover for people like the president, who, while not racists in the traditional segregationist sense, would propose there is not racism left in America or inequalities that gubment (Bush-iese) could legitimately intervene to fix.
It also is yet again another shot at black people stating, hey "you people" are scary. Every time I try to talk about race you get all "intimidating" on me.
Hey Bill'O -- Boo!
I think the blind hatred of anything conservative around here is as vicious as any racism going on today. Lots of hypocracy here... lots of it. Libs hate Conservatives just because they are conservatives. Call it classism, politicalism, whatever, but it's hatred at a level I've never seen in my 40 years on this earth.
I do think that MLK would be very saddened by the racial divide that for some reason still exists. We've made no progress on the social front despite the fact that anyone in this country can reach any level of success if they work at it.
Cannon,
for starters, we all have to get over the Finite Pie model of economics.
An atheist or agnostic can't get elected to high political office.
Given that "agnostic", loosely-defined, would describe a whole range of belief (percentages, as in how many days per week, month or year do you believe, or doubt), don't you consider a large cross-section of the population, including politicians, to be agnostic in degrees?
No. I consider an agnostic to be someone who, when asked whether there's a god, says that there's no reason to believe in god but is open to evidence that there is a god. While some politicians may feel that way, they are forced by the pervasive religious bigotry in our country to profess some kind of faith or fail to achieve office.
What I think is the stupidity of many of the conservatives around here brings on frustration. We get tired of being accused of things like blind hatred that come from nothing but the programmed brainwashing of the heroic rightwing screechmonkeys of the right.
I bet no one ever got pulled over for driving while conservative.