Kurtz suggested Giuliani is "undeniabl[y]" "one of the heroes of 9/11"
In his February 6 online column, Washington Post media critic Howard Kurtz stated that former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani (R) was "one of the heroes of 9/11," adding that his "accomplishments are undeniable." In fact, as Media Matters for America has documented (here and here), in the book, Grand Illusion: The Untold Story of Rudy Giuliani and 9/11 (HarperCollins, August 2006), Village Voice senior editor Wayne Barrett and CBSNews.com senior producer Dan Collins argued that Giuliani was responsible for terrorism-related failures before, during, and after the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.
Also, Kurtz suggested that Giuliani could be "so innately appealing that many voters are willing to put aside the fact that they disagree with him on a number of issues." Kurtz added: "So maybe the CW [conventional wisdom] is wrong and GOP voters would be willing to overlook Giuliani's social-issue sins," presumably referring to Giuliani's positions on abortion, gay rights, and stem cell research, among other issues. In fact, polling indicates that most Republicans do not know his views on abortion and on same-sex civil unions. As Media Matters has noted, a recent USA Today/Gallup poll found that "[b]arely one in five Republicans knew that he supports abortion rights and civil unions for same-sex couples," and that when Republican voters were informed of his positions, 36 percent of respondents indicated they would be either "less likely to support" him or would "rule him out as a candidate" altogether.
In Grand Illusion, Barrett and Collins suggested that Giuliani's status as "one of the heroes of 9/11" is far from "undeniable," as Media Matters has noted (here and here):
- The authors wrote that "Giuliani's preference for the comfort of a huge entourage had disconnected the city's management and its fighting force at a crucial moment" during the emergency response to the 9-11 attacks on the World Trade Center and pointed to Giuliani's former police commissioner Bernard Kerik as "a prime example of this managerial dysfunction all morning." They reported that in the 102 minutes between the first impact of a plane into the World Trade Center and the collapse of the North Tower, "Kerik became Giuliani's bodyguard, just as he had been in the 1993 mayoral campaign," rather than leading the police's efforts (Page 350).
- Barrett and Collins also wrote that, despite warnings from a previous police commissioner, Howard Safir, and NYPD chief operating officer Lou Anemone, Giuliani selected the 7 World Trade Center building to be the location of his Office of Emergency Management's (OEM) command center, "[r]ejecting an already secure, technologically advanced city facility across the Brooklyn Bridge" because Giuliani "insisted on a command center within walking distance of City Hall" (Page 41). But the OEM's command center, on the 23rd floor of 7 World Trade Center, was destroyed when the building collapsed on 9-11.
From Kurtz's February 6 Washington Post online column:
Okay, Rudy has finally ended the tease.
That means I have to hit the program key on my computer that says, Yes, he's popular, but wait until those Republican primary voters find out he's pro-gay rights, pro-choice on abortion and pro-gun control!
The question is whether 2008 is a very different kind of year, and Giuliani is a very different kind of candidate.
He is, after all, one of the heroes of 9/11. And he did demonstrate that the ungovernable city of New York could in fact be governed. He ticked off a lot of people in the process, and waged a very messy war with his now ex-wife, but his accomplishments are undeniable.
Every once in awhile, a political figure comes along who is so innately appealing that many voters are willing to put aside the fact that they disagree with him on a number of issues. John McCain had some of that in 2000 as plenty of Democrats swooned over him. So maybe the CW is wrong and GOP voters would be willing to overlook Giuliani's social-issue sins.
aside from the personal stuff, i know, a big aside, he probably was a fairly effective mayor. but the hero stuff is kind of like bush standing on the rubble of the wtc. when the fact is bush ignored warnings that a big attack of some kind was coming.
Here we go--let's use the guise of "analyzing the media" to attack prominent and popular Republican candidates...there is absolutley no substance to this article other than MMFA supporting the argument that some have put out there regarding Giuliani. Of course MMFA has the right to do use their "analysis" of the media as a disguise to attack those with whom they disagree, but I also have the right to call them what they are: disingenuous (at best).
Kurtz said it was UNDENIABLE that Guiliani was one of the heroes of 9/11. I deny it. Its not undeniable. It was opinion posited as fact. Misinformation
Interestingobserver, you might want to observe a little better next time.
He's talking about people who are not blinded by pure politics like most of the people who frequent this site. Come on Solon, you are usually better than this. There are people who deny the holocaust but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Your argument is bogus...he obviously was/is a person of heroic proportion.
Baloney, the holocaust and Guiliani is one of the heroes of 9/11 are not equivilent. Its not only a fringe of lunatics that deny it. He did his job, where is the heroism? I say it diminishes those who did actual heroic things on that day, fighting the fire rescuing people from the building rushing into the building knowing you could die many dying. THAT is heroic. Being there and taking charge is NOT. He did a good job. He put a good face on it. Why do important people get to vicariously enjoy having REAL heroism done by REALLY heroic people rub off on them because they were there.
Agree. This is basically Guilliani's only 'achievement' that he's riding for the Presidential nomination. Ask folks who lived in NYC during Guilliani's reign... he wasn't that great a guy.
" I say it diminishes those who did actual heroic things on that day, fighting the fire rescuing people from the building rushing into the building knowing you could die many dying. THAT is heroic. "
They were doing their job. So you give a pointless arguement: Gulliani isn't a hero because he was 'doing his job' but the real hero's (in your mind) are those who did their job. Nah, CB was wrong... that IS the best you can do. You don't even get his comparison to the holocaust. He wasn't comparing the holocaust, he was comparing those who deny it happened.
By your reasoning, if the first responders were just doing their jobs, then so was your Christ, just doing his job up on that cross.
And there's no such thing as a war hero.
So then there is no difference to you in the level of heroic actions between risking your life doing your job and giving a safe speech from a safe platform, doing your job? If my best isnt world class its still a whole lot better than that weak and pathetic attempt at a logical argument.
Your second pathetic attempt at an argument is just as bad. Of course I got it, that is why I said it isnt only a lunatic fringe denying Guliani is a hero. You really need to work on your reading comprehesion, at this point, its pretty sad.
I encourage you to continue to try selling the idea that giving a speech is just as heroic as risking YOUR life to save other lives, I mean its about as dumb an argument as I have read lately but it does have its entertainment value. At the logical level you are operating I would say thats about the best you can aspire to
Guliani’s job on 9/11 was not “speech giver”, although he did give a great speech as part of doing his job that day. His job was leading one of the largest emergency responses of all time. I believe that even you must agree that the best workers in the world would be ineffective if they have no leader coordinating their work. What you consider to be the “real” heroes of this world would never have a chance to become heroes without leadership to train, equip and coordinate their efforts. Imagine all the emergency recourses of the City of New York and then imagine that you have to lead the effort to deal with an event like 9/11. Guliani did that and I believe the majority of people in this country would say that he is a true hero.
On my comparison to the holocaust, I still don’t think you understand what I was saying. My point was that one moron saying they deny something doesn’t mean something is undeniable. It just means they're a moron.
Hmmm. I wonder what political affiliations the authors of the book are.
Any guesses?
The media is insisting that Rudy is "the hero of 9/11".
But by the time of the presidential election in 2004 Guiliani became just another shameless huckster for the Bush administration.
When hundreds of tons of munitions reportedly disappeared from the Al QaQaa munitions dump in Iraq, Guliani tried to deflect blame from George W. Bush to the troops fighting George W's War in Iraq. Here is his exact quote:
"No matter how you try to blame it on the president, the actual responsibility for it really would be for the troops that were there. Did they search carefully enough? Didn't they search carefully enough?"
Does that sound like a hero to you?
he also would not issue a statement in support of the "jersey girls" when they were attacked by coulter. they had to fight bush to get the 9-11 commission appointed, which bush tried to sabotage.
Not only that...but MMFA outright lies in their headline and leading paragraph once again!!! Kurtz never said that Giuliani was "undeniab[ly] one of the heroes of 9/11" By using the bracket, MMFA cleverly substiuted their own words for Kurtz's...that's called distortion and I hope eveyrone on this board has the intellectual honesty to see that. What Kurtz did say was the following:
"And he did demonstrate that the ungovernable city of New York could in fact be governed. He ticked off a lot of people in the process, and waged a very messy war with his now ex-wife, but his accomplishments are undeniable."
The "undeniable" refers to the cleaning up of New York, as evidenced by the sentence that preceded it, "And he did demonstrate that the ungovernable city of New York could in fact be governed." I expect an appology and correction from MMFA. Mistakes can be tolerated, but a pattern of distortion is inexcusable.
intellectually honesty? would you care to include the line you left out of that paragraph you quoted?
Sure thing: "He is, after all, one of the heroes of 9/11." What's your point?
the point would be you left it out. leaving it in would sort of undermine your tirade.
Well I just included it. Why don't you explain how my "tirade" is undermined? Also, please explain how MMFA did not distort Kurtz's quote.
obviously, we disagree. why don't you explain to me why it is not undermined, since it clearly is by your failure to include a relevant part of the paragraph. and hopefully, you have learned a little since your last "visit". [under this name of course]
Not sure what that cryptic last sentence is supposed to mean...what was I supposed to learn from my last visit? Oh, and as far as other names are concerned...sorry to disappoint you but this is my only one.
and your deliberate failure to include that sentence?
The first sentence is irrelevant because of the sentences that follow it to which "undeniable" that Kurtz used apply. You obviously agree with me because you're not disputing that point but instead load your posts with irrelevant personal attacks and trivialities.
but you highlighted "accomplishments are undeniable". you claim that can only refer to governing the city. adding the "s" means more than one, and since he only named one other, hero of 9-11, i think you see what i mean.
Yes, adding the "s" means more than one: there are many accomplishments involved in improving the city. Kurtz may have, additionally, been including Giuliani's role on 9/11 in those accomplishments but he was not exclusively referring to his being "one of the heroes of 9/11" as "undeniable," as MMFA distorted his quote to make it seem. Glad we now agree.
of course, mmfa did not say or imply he was "exclusively" saying only that. if there was any doubt, they did provide the whole quote, as you failed to do. so i think the honesty is on their side.
Yes they did imply that's what the "undeniably" was exclusively referring to. Just read the title again. And providing the whole quote does not absolve them from distorting the headline. A right does not cancel out a wrong.
but you said at 851 that the undeniable "accomplishments" was only referring to cleaning up the city. so we're back to where we started. you left out an important part of the paragraph because you just admitted that "hero of 9-11" could have been one of those accomplishments.
Continue to focus on trivialities if you can't handle the argument, that's fine. I'm satisifed in knowing that plenty of your fellow liberal bloggers on this discussion board have enough maturity and intellectual honesty to acknowledge MMFA's mistake.
a little tough to work out of the corner you painted yourself into?
A little tough dealing with morons like you who need EVERYTHING explained to them. I've done my explaining to you ad nauseum and don't think it would be worth my while to walk you through this again.
Sorry, mefirst, I may have been a little too harsh in my above posting. Although I still don't care to explain this to you, you would be well-served by "speaking" (inasmuch as writing on this forum constitutes "speaking") to Solon and Valentinian, who have enough intellectual honesty and maturity to acknowledge a distortion by MMFA.
anyone can have an opinion. i've given mine. our real disagreement here, from the first post i made, is you calling other people dishonest when you go out of your way to not include a first line that is, in fact, part of the very title we are discussing. and if you think i was doing anything but smiling at your insults.....
Glad to have put a smile on your face.
just remove the "undeniably[y]" from the headline, and you have kurtz suggested rudy was a hero of 9-11. he did in fact say it, suggest it, whatever. there is no "outright lie" in that headline.
MMFA changed Kurtz's quote by weasling in the "undeniab[ly]" when Kurtz in fact did not say that--the undeniable was referring to Giuliani's accomplishments in general, not his being the "hero of 9/11." This is the sort of misinformation that I thought MMFA was supposed to be exposing, not exhibiting!
I think they shouldn't have pulled the quotes in the headline the way they did. However, they gave the full context, and it wasn't a total misquote - it's not like he said "it is undeniable that Rudy Giuliani is an idiot" and "there are fools and knaves who say he is one of the heroes of 9/11." Without the headline, the posts stands, i think, on its own merits.
All that being said, I really don't think MMFA should slice and dice quotes like that, even in headlines.
Thank you Valentinian...that is exactly my point. I hope others will have the intellectual honesty that you have and acknowledge MMFA's distortion.
Interesting Observer,
Okay. I have some problems logically with what you are saying.
Kurtz said that:
A. Rudy is a hero
B. Rudy can govern an ungovernable city.
Kurtz then says "his accomplishments are undeniable." You have agreed that "accomplishments" refers to both A and B above. Both A and B are undeniable.
Therefore A is undeniable AND B is undeniable as well.
Why can't MMFA separate the argument? I don't see where logically, MMFA has done anything wrong. Kurtz definitely said that A is undeniable. Maybe you can correct my logic. Please quote what I have written so I can see where we differ.
Logically... If (A and B) = true, then A = true and B = true. Why can't MMFA take issue with A = true here?
Because logically, the governing of a city includes multiple things. All on its own THAT could be considered accomplishmentS. The plural could easily be seen as just the second part of the equation. Its not unreasonable to see it either way but its also not unreasonable to say its deceptive to portray it as IF the only interpretation is the one MMFA gives.
Solon,
I can see your point. Putting it in quotes would suggest that those were Kurtz's own words, where it is really an interpretation of what he may have been referring to by "accomplishments". I see the point now. If MMFA was paraphrasing, I would think they could say that, as paraphrases are understood to be interpretive, but the quotes make it different.
Kurtz should be questioned directly to see if he specifically meant that Rudy being a hero was undeniable.
I do have to say that I don't think many mayors are often called heroes for governing. It is more likely that Kurtz was refering to 9/11, but you are right that it is not definitive.
You are right, I was fooled. The leader is misleading. I skimmed the article and didnt catch it. He does say he was one of the heroes of 9/11 which to me is hyperbole. The people that deserve THAT acclaim rushed into the building. I agree though the leader is misleading
Giuliani should not even be mentioned in the same breath when it comes to "heroism" as the firefighters, police officers and other public officials who rushed into the buildings. I'm glad you see my point that this fawning tone in Kurtz's writing does not give MMFA the right to distort his quote.
By your own reasoning Kurtz was describing Giuliani's supposed heroism when he said Giuliani's accomplishments were undeniable. Just because Kurtz may have had more accomplishments in mind doesn't mean Kurtz wasn't talking about Giuliani's 9/11 heroism.
He absolutely might have been referring to Giuliani's 9/11 heroism by using the "undeniable". Or he might not have. If MMFA has any evidence that he was referring to the 9/11 heroism when he used "undeniable", they should produce it rather than just guessing. Didn't they ask the NY Times for more information about a certain spitting incident several days ago? The quesiton is: will they apply that same standard to themselves?
You are right. However I do believe it is a reasonable inference that it was refering to Giuliani's actions regarding 9/11. Who call the act of governing heroic or anything else Giuliani has done even remotely heroic? It is a word often reserved for the actions of people on 9/11. I believe that is what was referred to and I believe it should be pretty obvious. However, because it does require an inference to be made, you are right. MMFA should not have enclosed the interpretation in quotes. It might have been better to paraphrase, but that would be a dilution and not as acceptible for effect. MMFA is indeed stretching the headline.
While Giuliani's incompetence in dealing with pre- and post-9/11 events has been inflated by some, his "heroism" in leading the city during 9/11 has undoubetly been inflated by most.
9/11 was a terrible, horrific day in American history. We got blindsided and we got our butts kicked, and aside from the police and firefighters, and a few brave civilians, there are no other "heroes" of 9/11, not Giuliani and not George W. Bush. A steward is not a hero. If a NYC firefighter involved in the 9/11 aftermath wanted to get into politics and one day run for president, I would have no problem calling him a "9/11 hero." But I am really tired of people (Giuliani, Bush) and corporations (Haliburton, KBR) capitalizing on 9/11. For Christ's sake, people, this was the greatest single tragic moment in our nation's history. Is nothing sacred? Say what you will about Giuliani as a leader, but trying to advance one's career on the blood of innocent Americans is utterly disgraceful.
I agree--Giuliani's accomplishments on 9/11 have been overstated and exaggerated. But that does not excuse MMFA from distorting Kurtz's quote.
but you omitting a whole entirely pertinent sentence.....
"Giuliani's accomplishments on 9/11 have been overstated and exaggerated. "
As a New Yorker I am anything but an admirer of Rudy Guliani. I was awestruck, however, at his response to 9/11. He hit just the right notes; it seems as if he was born for that moment, and that moment redeemed much of the destructiveness (as in race relations) of his mayoralty. But for that one moment, as transformative as it was, to make him a front runner for the Presidency is absurd.
Sorry Conchobar but saying "he just hit the right notes" doesn't support your argument. What did he do that anyone else in his position would not have done? He certainly was a great leader on 9/11, but to transform him into a hero because he was thrusted into that awful scenario to me just doesn't seem to hold water. Where am I going wrong?
Sorry, I meant "Conchobhar."
Rudy Giuliani's greatest accomplishment after 9/11 was getting Rudy Giuliani on TV a lot.
Hero my butt.
Still does not give MMFA the right to misquote Kurtz so as to have him say that Giuliani was undeniably one of the heroes of 9/11. Kurtz said no such thing and providing his quote in its entirety does not absolve MMFA of misquoting him in the lead. Just plain wrong.
If I said you were "undeniably Canadian and conservative", you could argue that you aren't "undeniably Canadian" and be well within your rights. If you described my accusation/statement that I was saying you were "undeniably Canadian" I would not regard that as misleading as we are not arguing whether you are undeniably conservative.
I agree the headline is a bit distorted, but I don't really think that it matters. If you asked Howard Kurtz whether he believed Giuliani was "undeniably on of the heroes of 9/11," he would likely agree with the MMFA headline. Thus, whatever distortion may have took place is irrelevant. I think the point MMFA is making is that the Giuliani orgasm that took place in 2001, and to a similar extent now, is a bit ridiculous. So maybe this story doesn't exactly warrant MMFA's "media watchdog" treatment, but I don't think they are out of line to try and reel in the Giuliani hysteria going in the media right now.
If the media just focuses on his 9/11 accomplishments without exploring the other stuff, is it enough to get his elected? Because his potential opponents will certainly point them out (esp. the social stuff, can you imagine Brownback licking his smear chops?). Rudy was a guy who pretty much did the right thing when called upon, then allowed the money/power to seduce him to the dark side of BushieCo and fear tactics. He will have to answer to that.
I saw Giuliani on Sean Hannity the other night, and Hannity confessed that RG was his hero, to which Rudy reciprocated that the hero worship went the other way too.
I rest my case, 'nuff said.
While Bush was absent from any public communication--hours after the attack--New York's mayor was in the streets with the people. I disagree with Guiliani on many issues, but his leadership on that and the subsequent horrible aftermath was outstanding--and in sharp contrast to our President's. Remember the first executive communication? It was Colin Powell, on TV, reassuring the people and acting presidential.
True enough, I give him high marks for the way he handled the situation. I wouldnt describe it as heroic however especially considering the REAL heroism that took place that day.
"Hero" is definitely over-used these days, to the point of trivializing the real heros. I absolutely agree.
KURTZ IS FANTACIZING OR IS A LITTLE SLACK ON INTELLIGENCE.
THE GRANDSTANDING IN REGARDS TO 9/11 HARDLY MAKES GIULIANI
A HERO. HIS FACE APPEARING AT ALL HRS OF THE DAY FOR WEEKS AFTER9/11, AND ON EVERY CHANNEL NO DOUBT INCREASED HIS NOTORIOTY, AND HE WAS HELPFUL IN THE CLEAN UP AND CALMING
THE PEOPLE, BUT HE HAS A LOT OF BAGGAGE , NOT ONLY IN HIS PERSONAL LIFE, BUT I THINK HE WILL BE FORCED TO ADDRESS SOME QUESTIONS HE WOULD JUST AS SOON FORGET. FOR AN EXAMPLE THE SPEED WITH WHICH THE STEEL WAS REMOVED, WHERE IT WENT, AND WHY WITHOUT ACCOUNTABLE INSPECTIONS.
I LOOK FOR GIULIANI TO DROP OUT SOON
this is kind of weak. the guy may not have the chops to be president, but he definitely is one of the heroes of 9/11.
i understand the desire to root out conservative bias on the part of media figures, but this is not the way to do it.
What exactly do you regard as heroic that Giuliani did on 9/11?
Maybe we have different ideas of heroism. A guy who jumps on a grenade to save his buddies is a hero to me. A guy who runs in a burning building to save someone is a hero. Someone who stands their ground in the face of power, ridicule and public opinion on important principle is a hero. What did Giuliani do on that level? Are we so desperate for heroes that we have just lowered our standards?
Webster's defines it as: 1.a man of distinguished courage or ability, admired for his brave deeds and noble qualities. 2.a person who, in the opinion of others, has heroic qualities or has performed a heroic act and is regarded as a model or ideal...
I don't know how anyone can say that Giuliani is an American hero. As a 9-11 faimily member, retired nypd officer and someone who has been involved in many 9-11issues since the attack. The only thing he did was handle the media like a pro. Why did Giuliani allow the three rats to run from the scene of the attack when they should have supervised the emeregency worker's actions. The fire commissioner, police commissioner, and head of OEM,( the agency who's job was to corrodinate) all the services at such scenes to run and hide with him while their men died. Most firemen died because they were using radios the fire comminissioner knew would not work in the WTC and they could not talk to the police whos helecopter couldl see the building were going to come down many minutes before hand and were unable to tell the firemen. Giuliani put a multi million dollar command center in the center of the terrorists bulls eye on top of millions of gallons of disel fuel. History must be told truthfully. Stop the propaganda.