On Today, Coulter disparaged and misrepresented effort to apologize for slavery
On the February 8 edition of NBC's Today, syndicated columnist Ann Coulter derided a resolution introduced in the Virginia Legislature apologizing for slavery as "white people engaging in a completely meaningless gesture" and falsely told viewers the resolution "was not introduced by a black person." In fact, according to a report in the Richmond Times-Dispatch, the original resolution was introduced by Delegate A. Donald McEachin and state Sen. Henry L. Marsh III, both African-American Democrats.
In reference to Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL), Coulter said that "the first black president should be an American black, and a Republican." Coulter's comment recalled, in part, a claim by columnist Stanley Crouch in the November 2, 2006, New York Daily News that "Obama did not -- does not -- share a heritage with the majority of black Americans, who are descendants of plantation slaves."
Additionally, Coulter suggested a comparison between Sen. Joseph R. Biden Jr.'s (D-DE) remarks about Obama and the racial controversies surrounding Sen. Trent Lott (R-MS), saying "I don't think [Biden]'s a racist. I don't think Trent Lott is a racist. They're slips of tongue." Lott's remarks at a 2002 birthday party for the late Sen. Strom Thurmond (R-SC) included the claim that America "wouldn't have had all these problems over all these years" if Thurmond's 1948 segregationist candidacy for president had been successful. But as Media Matters for America has noted, Lott's comment was just the most recent incident in a pattern of public statements and actions that have been attacked as racially insensitive and, in several cases, as indicating support for racist entities.
Media Matters has previously noted Coulter's appearances on Today, as well as numerous examples of her inflammatory rhetoric, baseless smears, and false claims.
From a discussion including Coulter, co-host Natalie Morales, and University of Pennsylvania professor Michael Eric Dyson on the February 8 edition of NBC's Today:
MORALES: Are people making too much of it, though?
COULTER: No, I mean, I think it's --
MORALES: I mean, did he apologize enough?
COULTER: Sure, Sure. I don't think he's a racist, I don't think Trent Lott is a racist. They're slips of tongue. But I totally understand the "articulate black" thing. I've always said this is why I don't like the phrase "compassionate conservative." You know, screw you. We think conservatism is compassionate. Unless you're saying most blacks aren't articulate. Or clean.
DYSON: And I did put my underarm deodorant on today.
[...]
MORALES: Yeah, I mean, but given Senator Hillary Clinton's [D-NY] popularity with blacks, though, is he necessarily a shoe-in, Ann, with the black vote?
COULTER: No. No, no, no. I've asked Michael about this. Political scientists will study for the next hundred years why blacks love the Clintons so much. But they do.
DYSON: Very much.
COULTER: And right now, Hillary has the black vote. And I gotta say -- I don't think race would hurt Obama -- but I think the first black president should be an American black, and a Republican.
MORALES: A Republican. Michael, I'm thinking you probably don't agree with that.
DYSON: No, I don't think that's the case --
[...]
MORALES: Let's move on to another issue because some state legislatures are now passing resolutions apologizing for slavery. In fact, in Virginia, they just passed a legislation expressing profound regret. However, a state delegate, Frank Hargrove [R], questioned the need for these resolutions and even went as far as saying that blacks should just, quote, "get over it."
DYSON: Yeah.
MORALES: What do you make of this?
DYSON: Well, it's unfortunate again. I think that, obviously, an apology without consequential action is nothing, but you must apologize. If you do something wrong to a person, you must say you're sorry. And to say, "Get over slavery," well, "Get over cancer, get over, you know, the disease you have, get over the Holocaust." I don't think so. I think we have to work through them. And this is part of the sentiment and passion that black people are so disgusted with. We have -- must talk about things. We can disagree. Ann and I disagree about a lot of issues, but we can be civil and humane to one another.
MORALES: You guys are being very civil this morning.
COULTER: He's the only liberal I can stand talking to. If I can say about this -- I mean, what's wrong about what Hargrove -- it just hit me when you were saying it -- I promise you this resolution was not introduced by a black person. This is white people engaging in a completely meaningless gesture.
DYSON: I think it was a black guy who did it.
MORALES: Yeah.
COULTER: Stand up to slavery when slavery is on the table. Stand up against abortion because that's what we're fighting now. Stand up against illegal immigration because that's what we're fighting now. To be coming along 150 years later when everyone opposes it -- ah! I just can't stand meaningless gestures like that.
there is nothing wrong with any institution of government apologizing for any role in slavery. my family ancestry is from the north, and long ago enough to cover the civil war. neither they nor i had any thing to do with slavery, but there is nothing wrong with the federal government or any state saying we apologize for any role in it. it is the right thing to do.
'...meanigless gestures...'- like Coulter's 'analysis' of ANYTHING....
Anne Coulter is a pasty white woman with a filthy mouth. She has absolutely no frame of reference to talk about slavery as her life has never been affected by it. She should get her *ss back into the kitchen, and find herself a husband to provide for her and shut up.
I won't go as far as the "go back to being a housewife" mantra, but I do think she is someone who professes to be an expert in everything when she rarely knows anything about what she's talking about. As such, she adds nothing interesting to the civilized debate of the issues. She has no informed and constructive viewpoints, only misinformed and destructive ones. She is the flagship hate merchant that women like Michelle Malkin and Laura Ingram aspire to be.
It's not simply about hate for Coulter, it's about specifically targeting hate for maximum effect, to get Red State America's blood pumping. Achieve this lucrative form of hate that Ann has mastered, and you, too, can profit from it.
But Bingvan, I think your wrong about Coulter's life never being affected by slavery.
Her family probably owned many slaves.
And Bing Van Gorden is a doo doo head! So there! Will you please raise your level of discourse to at least that of a 4-year-old, Bing? Please?
You first, Gettin' tubed.
And...'I promise you...'- she just broke her promise...she needs a time-out...for life...
Speaking of "meaningless gestures"...
If you read the Richmond Times-Dispatch piece, you'll find that former Senator George Allen supported an apology for failing to outlaw lynchings but didn't think there was support to apologize for slavery.
In other words, owning other humans - eh, so what?; stringing them up - shouldn'ta done that.
What's this--an Allen outing?
Coulter must be taking something. She wasn't nearly as incendiary as usual. I would consider these comments pretty tame for her.
She is usually much more insulting and stilted. She actually said the liberal guy next to her was the only liberal she enjoyed "talking to". No mention of a baseball bat either? Is the Ann Coulter reign of terror over?
This lady is special. I remember hearing her talk about 3-4 years ago on a local radio station, WLS out of Chicago. Refering to the Democrats in general, she said "we need to get rid of them". I wonder does she let her down somewhat when not a national show and how might she talk in private.
Coulter's two main areas of expertise: slavery and dancing.
if you are my slave, do you have a right to HATE me? also, if my feminist wife makes me her slave, howcome its a turn on?
"...right to hate me?"
I don't get it. No, you should LOVE your master at all times. Let's get one thing straight here... slavery = bad. Okay? I was down with some of what you wrote... then, it fell to pieces.
Once again, one person cannot dictate how another should or should not feel. I hate to say it, but this is a classic trait of righties... incessantly calling everyone else babies, especially if it doesn't suit their agenda or if they're caught in a lie, etc. Come on. What do you care if people are pissed about slavery?
actually that's not true. if your kids are whining because you didnt buy them ice cream even though you gave them a welfare check then you have a right to call them babies. if lefties are going to act like children and go on welfare then whine about it, youre going to get called babies over it
Is that what this is about? Wellfare? That's a stretch on your part. Coulter is talking about reparations to Blacks... does Welfare (a program that benefits not just blacks) count in this case? I don't think so. In your mind, apparently...
well lets see, all poor people get welfare which is designed to sustain you until you find another job. sure more whites get it than blacks but proportion to pop. more blacks get it than whites. so why cant they call that reparations. then they get affirmative action where more qualified white/asian male students are replaced by a lower qualified minority in the name of diverrrrrrrrrsity. that has also been around for 30 years or so. i mean what more do you want before people start saying 'shut up and stop crying'. oreilly also points out that blacks earn about 84% of what whites do which means we have come a long way. yeah it isnt perfect but if you think that just 40 years ago we had rampant discrimination i dont think that is bad at all.
Dude... By your own account Black people are not equal to whites in this country. Why is that? Year 2007?? Should Blacks just be happy with what they got? Just shutup already? Enough is enough? That's easy for you to say (apparently).
Better'n it used to be. Huh, Col? How about EQUAL. What's wrong with that. Why don't you through some social Darwinist crap, so we can have a good laugh. Please.
correction
"...throw out some social..." Thank you.
equality is like approaching infinity, you can go to large #s right away but over time you notice youre only improving by small amounts and you realize that youll never get there. i think this is the case with 'equality'. we might be able to reach 99% over a long period of time but it will take longer than the 40 yrs it took us to get this far.
Okay. So-called progress is somewhat subjective. I suppose it takes time, as you say. However, being on the receiving end of that 84% and hearing a guy like O'Reilly tell me it's okay... that ain't okay. Who the hell is he to say?
i mean its like writing an essay and getting a B+ instead of the A+ you deserved due to racism. yeah youre pissed but it really isnt as bad as getting an F you know? you wont be THAT mad. if anything i think blacks AND whites AND hispanics should all apologize to eachother for their own CURRENT racism. its hard for anyone to apologize for the past.
i walk by blacks on college campus all the time and have to listen to them make fun of white ppl right in front of their faces because they think they are intimidating and no one will tell them anything, or how white ppl suck at basketball. it really goes both ways and white people, contrary to popular liberal belief, do not have a monopoly on racism.
I agree with you. I have never believed that racism is limited to just whites.... I guess I don't see what the hold up is. Especially in this country...the great US of A. Bastion (supposedly) of human rights and equality. There should be no 16% disparity in this day and age (2007!!! - as GTTNTBED keeps saying).
what does the statement 'i mean its 2007 already!!!!' really mean? im sure in 1900 people said, "I mean its 1900 already for crying out loud!! where is my transporter?!''
its a pretty meaningless statement
How many much higher qualified applicants didnt get into Yale, when George W Gump got in as a legacy? Are you as concerned about that or is it just priveleges for the underpriveleged that offend you not more priveleges for the priveleged?
Those not "accepted" @ Yale may, by now,realize how fortunate they were to have been treated so unfairly.
Really? And not being able to get into one of Americas most prestigious Universities was good for them HOW?
Prestige.
Elitist, at best.
You and I may agree to that as a negative thing, but I think someone who actually applies to go there likely would see that as a plus.
The vast majority of welfare recipients are white. The fact that the "Colonel" goes from slavery to welfare shows what an ignorant bigot the "Corporal" is.
"I hate to say it, but this is a classic trait of righties..."
It is silly isn't it. The right has thier classic traits, and the left theirs.
The right screams cry babies, or my fav, pansey.
The left screams Racist, Bigot, and necon ect.
GOD BLESS AMERICA....... how pathetic this has come to be. The land of Justice? BS......
EL, if you're going to keep saying "pansy" at least spell it right, please.
alright alright
Don't consider for a second that we are like you. We don't think like you, smear like you or twist reality to fit our ideology. We may call each other different names and have our different beliefs but trust me do not assume we are like you or the same as you.
On behalf of reasonable people everywhere I'd like to apologize for Anne Coulter's vile shrewness.
The only thing that frustrates me is the Ann Coulter was not referred to as a republican.
I wish she was always referred to as Republican Ann Coulter. Kind of like Billionaire George Soros or Lesbian Rosie O'Donnell.
LMAO!!!!!!!!
That is funny. I was commenting on titles like those. Like I give a crap if George Soros is a Billionaire or Rosie is a Lesbian. how pathetic.
Coulter has NO leg to stand on when speaking of being 'sensitive' toward any person, race, color or creed. Period. Why this woman is on the Today show??? No idea.
"This is white people engaging in a completely meaningless gesture."
Perhaps, Ann the gesture is not considered so "meaningless" to black people. Ask one. I'm white, by the way. I've never owned slaves and, to my knowledge, nor did any of my ancestors. While I don't feel any need to personally apologize for slavery, slavery was a reprehensible institution and a huge black mark on the history of our country. At least some people had the good sense, tenacity, and moral virtue to fight to abolish the practice. I can understand how it's still a sore spot with black people... an entire race of people were treated like property. And you're not going to convince me that, particularly in the South, much of the poverty that exists is still not some after effect of slavery, even 150 years later.
A few years ago I traveled in Belgium, Holland and Germany and actually had the privilege of living with and getting to know many people. One thing that struck me is how for many of them it was as though World War II had happened last year. (Many of the Dutch are still pissed off about the Germans bombing Rotterdam, for example.) People maintain a collective knowledge about past atrocities. Ask Jews. Ask Muslims...
Alright, if you want to call an apology for slavery a "meaningless" gesture then go ahead. But it's not meaningless to everyone and if it's meaningless then it must be benign. So what's your problem, Ann. Oh, I think I know... it's an insincere attempt by white liberals to get black votes. Cuz we all know liberals are conniving, evil people... Right, Ann? Glad we straightened that out....
I happen to know none of my direct ancestors owned slaves since both sides of my family came directly from Ireland which outlawed slavery in about 1100 to California which was never a slave state. I am however an American and would like to see my country aknowlege the wrong done. It is the adult thing to do. Slavery was wrong an appology is fitting gesture
Where's the harm in saying a few words that might make someone else feel better?
I don't understand how someone could be opposed to an apology for slavery. It hurts no one and it costs nothing.
Hey King,
All true BUT what you have essentially are people who never participated in owning slaves apologizing to people who were never slaves.
Who feels better here? It's basically meaningless.
If your father, grandfather or uncle had been tortured by the Japanese Army in World War II would an apology from the Japanese be appreciated or totally meaningless?
If your father, grandfather or uncle had been tortured by the Japanese Army in World War II would an apology from the Japanese be appreciated or totally meaningless?...by MATT2545
Bad comparison Matt. You'd have to go back a lot further.
Now if my Yankee solider great great [great?] grandfather was tortured by Rebel soldiers during the Civil war and the Southern states all got together and offered a resolution of apology...well quite frankly it would be meaningless to me.
But hey that's just me.
All true BUT what you have essentially are people who never participated in owning slaves apologizing to people who were never slaves. - from Jeter2
I disagree. This is a government body that not only allowed slavery to exist but actively supported its continuation. That body has been in continuous existence from that time until now. I see nothing wrong with any institution, company, government or individual acknowledging that it had participated in an injustice and apologize for having done so. A failure to ever apologize implicitly suggests that one doesn't believe those actions were wrong. An explicit apology removes that suggestion.
Alright Bill I'm willing to consider this. Perhaps as a White man I don't quite understand how this gesture would be meaningful. But if it has some significance for African-Americans then I've no objection.
As I wrote to Lynn [elsewhere on this thread] perhaps a resolution to apologize for slavery carried out by this nation should have been introduced by the US Congress decades ago for this to be truly meaningful. After all The US did issue an official apology to Japanese-Americans for their internment during WWII.
As far as I know no such apology for slavery was ever presented by the US Congress to African-Americans.
well, considering the passionate oppositon expressed by some on here, in the year 2007...... and you know i am not afraid to take a "conservative" position when i believe it.
Jeter2 -
You're right, the US Congress has never passed a resolution apologizing for slavery. A couple of years ago the Senate passed a resolution apologizing for having failed to pass anti-lynching legislation. That resolution had failed in the Senate three times before after having been passed in the House. It finally passed on a voice vote in a partially filled Senate chamber.
With that record, I guess it's not terribly surprising that a resolution apologizing for slavery hasn't ever gone anywhere.
you're correct. i said somewhere on here that the senate had passed an apology for slavery. it was what you described.
Jeter2
As posted before, its not people apologizing. Its the state of Virgina, there is a difference. The state has maybe certain gestures in the past for which it wishes to correct.
It's not the state or Virgina, it's the state of Hoo-Haw. Keep current, please--Virgina is offensive to some.
That's pretty good.
meaningless to you, not to many others. But are you the only one that matters? Obviously it's meaningful to people or it wouldn't be a topic of discussion. I'm kind of surprised at you Jeter. You are usually much more pragmatic. What is the big deal? Where is the harm in a pologizing. It's not like they are asking for the 40 acres and a mule they were promised and it's not like they would get that anyway. Answer me this; if someone is placated by getting an apology what's the harm? What is the negative impact of apologizing?
Bing perhaps you missed my [other] post above [scroll up]
Look for:
jeter2 / Friday February 9, 2007 04:25:15 PM EST
Ah! Sorry. There you were being pragmatic again, true to form.
thanks
;^}
The COUNTRY that is government, had policies that allowed slavery. The COUNTRY that is government should appologize. It is a group aknowlegement of a group wrong. That doesnt mean any individual is taking personal culpability so I dont see you have a point.
what's the harm?
what's the harm in buying your kid a 50 cent candy bar because she is throwing a tantrum over it? it may make her happy for a few hours and it doesn't cost you much but you'll see long term repercussions from your now spoiled child.
you don't just hand out apologies to make someone feel good if you didn't do anything wrong. try apologizing to a girl for every little thing and see how long it takes for her to get sick of you and say 'stop saying sorry!!!!' - trust me i know:). plus black ppl want free $$$$ so they wont be happy with JUST an apology
"what's the harm in buying your kid a 50 cent candy bar because she is throwing a tantrum over it? it may make her happy for a few hours and it doesn't cost you much but you'll see long term repercussions from your now spoiled child. "
America loves to reward the bad in people. Like the story about, "Crying child can get you kicked off plane".... She was not simply crying, she was climbing under the seats and kicking at her parents. Delaying the plane by more than 15 minutes. The plane had every right to kick them off. And what do they do? REWARD the parents with round trip tickets anywhere. PATHEIC@!
yeah i think we are all too spoiled in this country to be quite honest. i think its time i put some of you liberals on a timeout from using mmfa
til you learn to behave
Sounds like a threat from Mr. Campbell
An impotent threat, though, just like the intellect he shows in all his posts.
You keep coming back to money. This thread isn't about money. No where in the story does it mention reparations.
It's not about me apologizing for something I didn't do. In fact my family wasn't in this country until the twentieth century.
But I'm here now. This country was built on a foundation of slavery. We would not be where we are today as a nation had it not been for slavery.
You said to trust you, you know. Well I know too. Probably more than you want to know. I've watched as racial hatred destroys families both white and black. I've seen children, both white and black dead in the streets because of this.
If our government's apology saves one kid, then it's worth it.
So then slaverly wasnt wrong? That wasnt even apples and oranges it was trout and nebular clusters
hey wait a second. shouldnt black people be THANKFUL for slavery? In the Bible it always preaches to be thankful for things and to find the good in all things. Well I am thankful for the time my dad got in a motorcycle accident and came away okay, because it caused him to sell his bike and it maybe saved his life.
Black ppl should be THANKFUL for slavery because they get to live in america now and be part of this great land on equal (or close to) footing in 2007. if it wasnt for the bad deeds of white ancestors black ppl would still be in africa and manyofthem would be dealing with hiv.
you can easily find that a lot of good can come out of something bad and it is IMPORTANT to be thankful for it. ie getting fired from a job but then meeting your future wife on your walk home, etc. dont be bitter.
Your ignorance knows no bounds. I want you ask this brilliant theory of yours to an african American in person.
That like saying your mother should be glad she was raped and impregnated or she would have you to show for it.
Jews should appreciate the holocaust?
Americans should appreciate 9/11?
uhhh actually many of the women who are raped and impregnated and choose to go through with it end up being thankful they didn't have an abortion and wouldn't take the rape back if they could because they love their children. you just gave a perfect example of how something good can come out of something bad. get some perspective.
Keep telling yourself that pal. Whatever gets you through your narrow world view.
Listen Col. Dipschit
You'll have a point when that women sit for tea with the rapist. Also how predictible of you to ignore what I said about the holocaust and 9/11.
You don't get it now and your most likely too dumb to ever get it. I waste my time responding to you.
BTW it's comments like this that make many Black people distrustful of so called "conservatives.
The next time you make and ignorant comment in public (not on the web) and you wind up being beaten to within an inch of you life, while you sit in the hospital room staring at the ceiling, be grateful for that a$$ whuppin'. Thank god for that lesson and remember to think about the beating everytime you think about openning your mouth.
Colonel-dumb ass is the reason I held such a negative view of conservatives for so long. I wrongly thought that most conservatives were bigoted a-holes like him. I know that isn't true and I like several of the conservatives here very much, including that stubborn mule Tommy.
Colonel
I really hope your just trolling and don't actually believe the garbage your posting... If you do that is a very sad thing.
Many, many Africans are currently living with HIV. In some countries, they've basically written off an entire generation to the disease. Where have you been?
Poultergeist strikes again!
Cackling all the way to the bank on her broom.
That excuse for a woman has shown herself to be a bigot, liar, and a bully. Which apparently passes the smell test for NBC.
The point of the MMA article post on this- is how ludicrous it is to have someone like AC do commentary on Barrack Obama and a Virgina state resolution, where slavery was king.
Though many have gone off on tangents posting here, as on other articles.
I think looking at the merits of what Ann Coulter said, and the merits of having her on the NBC Today show are the issue here.
The state of political commentary with any kind of integrity or valid reasoning continues to swirl down the toilet.
It's one thing to expect to see Potergeist pop up on Faux News with her spinning head in the "no spin zone."
Quite another when she's on NBC.
Oh yeah, it's one big liberal love fest that mainstream media.
COULTER: I promise you this resolution was not introduced by a black person.
Is Coulter still in that stage of childhood where an apology is something that is done only at the request of the one you're apologizing to? An apology is less meaningful when it's unsolicited?
Even as a little kid, I realized that those apologies my mom forced me to make to my sister didn't mean much. As i grew, I learned to apologize when appropriate, not when asked to do it.
Ann Coulter off topic item- I visited some Townhall.com offshoot blogs the other night, and found a review of the Sean Hannity freedom concert. I intended to read it, but couldn't get past the first paragraph where the reviewer mentioned, as a highlight, the "eye candy" of Ann Coulter.
Yikes!
Quite frankly, I don't need an apology, but I would not consider this an apology to me or my generation. I don't see whats wrong with a formal apology to generations to African Americans (deceased) who live through that era. The government have made post mortem apologies on many occasions how would this be different?
By saying this is meaning less to me as an African American, you are making a huge assumption as to what I hold meaningful in my life and showing a general lack of perspective.
What is I said whorsip was a meaning les jesture? A different situation, but I hope you see my point. An apology won't change anything, but don't tell me what its meaningless.
While I do not condone Coulter's ludicrous and inaccurate comments, this is an issue which drags me to the conservative side of the ledger, and only after a ton thought.An apology is customarily offered by those who did wrong, correct. Well, then who shall apologize for slavery? All slave owners are dead, and the slaves, too, are dead. So the idea of apologizing for slavery must then follow the logic of the sins of the father are visited upon the sons, and if one's ancestors were slighted, that too is inherited. Give the fact that virtually all black people in the USA are the descendants of slaves we do not need to trace linage on their part. But what of those sin-burdened sons? Do we track down those whose present wealth is based on slavery? Of course not. Since that is too time consuming, it is easier to declare ALL white people coconspirators, that I should personally feel bad for ALL the history that preceded me, the accumulation of decades and centuries and millennia of decisions for which I was not once consulted.I was born into the world, I did not create it.
So for me, or anyone, to apologize for the atrocities of the far off past is demonstratively disingenuous and false. I repudiate the transference of sins unto my being because I was born "white".
I have sins, but they are my own, not genetic hand-me-downs.
That's all well and good but it doesn't really apply here because in this case the state is apologizing for the state's role in slavery and discrimination. It is not apologizing on behalf of white people in general.
So by virtue of that fact you are saying the state of Virginia is proposing an apology to everyone, black and white alike, since, as you say, they aren't representing one ethnic group over another, just a general free floating apology to the Spirit of Humanity.
I find that angle harder to swallow than a box of nails.
Any apology for slavery is implicitly TO black people FROM white people, regardless of what governmental body is offering the apology. Arguing to the contrary just doesn't pass the sniff test.
Of course the apology is to black people. (Not really an apology, actually; it's an "acknowledg[ment] with contrition.") But it's only on behalf of the state, not of any particular white people. In other words, the way the bill is worded does not imply blame on anybody who does not deserve it.
Absolutely, It would be a purely patronizing gesture.
It would be a considerate and unifying gesture in my opinon. The next day I would get up and go to work and and work hard like I always do, and I will be even more proud of my country, and think how big we are as people.
Stupid Lynn,
Don't you know that tommy knows exactly how you (and apparently every black person) would feel about it better than you do.
Ha Ha,
Yeah, Tommy is all knowing. Moreover, Tommy believes he has the right to dictate what and how everyone should feel about everything. They MUST feel what he feels. If he thinks something is stupid and meaningless, then all right thinking people in the world must agree with Tommy; otherwise they're just being irrational and SILLY.
Tommy let me know when your start your campaign to end Memorial day and stop our government from flying the flag at half mass. It's pointless right? It doesn't bring back the dead or change anything right? What's wrong with those silly black folks and those pansy a$$ liberals anyway? Why would they want to publicly acknowledge the loss of the freedom, dignity and lives of many black people was the foundation of our country? It's pointless right?
You do understand that public displays serve a purpose. It's usually to reflect on a loss or to acknowledge hardship in the hopes that we will learn some lesson from it.
By patronizing gesture, do you mean your previous post?
An apology is customarily offered by those who did wrong, correct.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Not necessarily. Or lets say it isnt that simple. Suppose you were a boy scout and your troop sponsered a dance and some of your troop made the posters. Now you didnt oversee them and didnt go to the dance but the posters were offensive and inappropriate and you realized it later. Now as say the leader of the dance or troop wouldnt you feel the need to appologize for the posters even if YOU personally didnt have anything to do with them? There is such a thing as group responsibility. It was our NATION that as policy tolerated and in some cases facilitated slavery. For instance giving the slave states three fifths of a vote for slaves which could not vote to inflate their representation thus thier political clout. Passing national laws that mandated sending slaves who escaped BACK into slavery. The Nation should appologize for the only reason applicable it was engaged in something that is WRONG. That implies no culpability upon any individual person alive today. It just says we screwed up, people were hurt and it was wrong.
It is shameful the apology is too late in relation to when slavery happened, Bush and Co. should issue their apology on this illegal war now so the U.S. doesn't have to do this 100 years from now.
She makes an ass of herself and she gets asked back.
God bless Amurika.
What is the downside of taking a few moments to declare that what happened in the past was wrong?
Absolutely nothing. The better question is why people would fight such an apology. It shows a lack of concern. It keeps the wound open. If these yahoos were smart, they'd understand that if they really wanted this to go away the easiest thing to do would be to apologize.
What a bunch of hateful people on this board. Whining about how we shouldn't apologize for this that or the other thing. Here's a reason why we should apologize for slavery that shouldn't "offend" anyone; recognizing mistakes, acknowledging them witha very public apology harms no one and might just do some good. All this whining about slavery being old news and people should get over it is just arrogant ignorance. Hey Tommy was your grandfather hung from a tree> Hey Col. Mustard did your grand momma get raped by her slave master? Probably not so shut up and show some compassion. It took over 100 years for our government to acknowledge that blacks were equal to whites, it will probably take another 100 for them to forgive us fully and we are about 50 years away from that point so YOU just get over it and show some humility!
Offering an apology heals old wounds that still do exist today. Having the courage to acknowledge that our country has exercised some pretty despicable acts is a sign of strength not weakness. If you belittle such a simple request it shows your bigotry. Yes bigotry.
I am sure that most of us have had things done to us in the past that would stop bothering us if we just heard "I am sorry".The United States has had a great 200 years of wealth and sucess which would never have happened without free labour.How bout sorry and thanks?
Sorry and thanks is fine.
However, immigrants of all other colors, including white, contributed plenty of labor to the development of this country, much of it subsistence level. The country did not develop on the backs of Blacks only, particularly where there was no slavery.
Don't lecture me on interconnectedness. It's there, but it's not the only reason the country made it.
Furthermore, my spouse is part Black, so that makes me an authority (kinda kidding--just want to make it clear that I'm not a TOTAL Whitey Tight-Ass). It is not a stretch, by the way, to say that the effects of slavery can still be "felt". When there are still people living who knew slaves, or at least knew the children of slaves, of course the marks are still there, in some way. It is also not unreasonable (but has to be expressed carefully) to say that something good has been made out of tragedy, or "lemonade from a lemon." Examples abound. And I always will be impressed by the love and patriotism that the Black community has shown for this country, in aggregate, in spite of the past.
Damn, I'm mostly Black and Lord knows I'm not an authority on race issues, although being an AA gives me a different perspective on things.
I'm just saying that having a lot of color in my family yields ME a perspective that I would not have found otherwise. Just speaking for myself, not for anybody else.
I wouldn't have gotten said perspective because of MY particular mindset. I do not presume to speak for any other caucasians; many caucasians are misunderstood and assigned motives, as is happening on this site. Just the limitations of language are a BIG problem. Actions are what really count, and we are sorely limited in ability to observe those on this site.
"I'm just saying that having a lot of color in my family yields ME a perspective that I would not have found otherwise." --lemoc
If that is indeed true, hopefully you have gained some understanding, compassion, insight and empathy for the oppression/plight of many black people. Strict adherence to conservative dogma often prevents that from happening. Hopefully you have learned to discard dogma in lieu of what you see with your own eyes. I have conservative friends who have married people of color and never learned that. Every one of them is now divorced. That may not be the ultimate reason, but it doesn't help things.
Well said. Our life has been tumultuous anyway, got used to it as a child, so...I don't know what to say about the divorce rate, particularly in the instances you cite.
Lemoc,
I have to apologize. My post could be interpreted as patronizing. I didn't mean it that way and I don't think you read it that way, but I just wanted to clarify.
I am a white man married to a black woman as well (12 years this month). I genuinely hope things work out for you and your wife. Personally, I didn't know about a lot of my conscious and unconscious racism until it was pointed out to me. I think everyone, (not just conservatives) need to be open to the possibility that many of our thoughts are grounded in irrational stereotypes and bigotry.
Thanks. No, I didn't see "patronizing".
I'm going to use the Bush and Republican rhetoric here...
If we apologize for slavery, we will only embolden the blacks! We would be sending the wrong message and show signs of weakness.
Germany apologized for the Holocaust, why can't we apologize for slavery?
No one is asking WHITE PEOPLE to apologize for slavery. It is to make THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT apologize for it.
In my opinion this apology is long overdue but would be a nice gesture.
Some of the comments on this post are baseless.
She makes a very valid point.
To get up and say that you are against slavery in 2007 is a waste of our time and money.
99.9% of the population is against slavery.
So it is a pointless resolution just to get browny points from liberals.
but that's not what is being called for or did you miss that part?
Having the American Gov't apologize for slavery is also stupid and a waste of time. 99.9% of the American people know the Gov't was complacent w/ slavery...nd in fact facilitated it.
But, that doesn't mean we shoud make a stupid resolution in 2007 when there are better things we could be doing.
Why not? What's the harm? There seem to be people who think it's long overdue. What if another 100 years go by and our grandchildren ask how on earth could we allow slavery to happen and not offer some apology. Obviously the "empty gesture" theory is bunk. The evidence is in the interest in getting an apology. So what is the big deal if the government does a symbolic gesture and makes it official? How could it hurt? It can only benefit our country and preserve a more perfect union. What is more troubling is how fiercely people fight against the idea of making a simple apology. Why are you so against such a harmless idea?
"But, that doesn't mean we shoud make a stupid resolution in 2007 when there are better things we could be doing." --ldoren
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Why don't you get elected in VA so you can do all of those vague "better things we could be doing".
You're so right, Doren. We should be making sure Speaker Nancy doesn't get that great big plane she asked for. Oh, wait, she didn't ask for it...
So virtually EVERYBODY knows it was WRONG but it would be stupid to appologize. Hmmmm I am not sure if thats arrogance or bigotry but its definitly messed up
While we're at it...why don't we say that we are against Breast Cancer, and AIDS. That we don't like genocide. That murder is wrong.
It is meaningless.
Nobody would suggest that if someone said these were a waste of time that they they were Pro-Cancer or genocide.
Therefore, it is not racist to say that getting up and wasting our time to apoligize for slavery is a waste of time too. Everyone knows it is wrong...it is meaningless pandering.
IF Gangleskank Ann really HAD made a valid point, which of course she didnt, it would have been the very first time. Glad to see her unbroken string of hatred, and bigotry is going strong. She defines disgusting and is a waste of precious oxygen
Gangleskank Ann...you missed your calling, Solon. That is good and funny regardless of the political persuasion of anybody here.
I gotta have SOME fun, and the names for celebs heard here are the best anywhere; if that's not copyrighted I'm gonna use it.
Cant take credit for that. I got it from another poster here I just dont remember which one.
So where would the apologies begin and where would they end? Should it be a State by State issue or a Federal issue? As noted above, we are some 4 - 6 generations separated from slavery. A lot of us had relatives that shed blood or lost lives in defense of the Union in 1861-65, are we not due an apology from the Governments of the Seceded States of that time? How about the injustices visited on the Native Americans, certain ethnic immigrants (Irish as an example)? The Good Book says forgive and forget, so some of the healing here has to be initiated by those who feel their ancestors were wronged as well as by those whose ancestors offended. It's high time to put this behind us (as far as the fingerpointing is concerned) and move on, remembering what happened only in the content we don't let it happen again.
I don't think that making the argument we have lots of people to apologize to, so let's not apologize to anyone is a bit odd. I don't know if that was your intended point, but several others have made a similar argument here today.
Point One, any apologizing should come from ancestors of slaveholders.
Point Two, as a family that lost sons fighting for the Union in that horrible conflict, I could feel that my family is owed a "Thank you" from the ancestors of those we fought to help free (especially if we are expected to apologize) for something we had no part in (slavery) as far as I have researched.
Point Three, do we really need to spend time apologizing for the actions of others? The number of slaveholders in our (USA) past was a small % of the population, where is it incumbent on any but ancestors of those to apologize?
Point Four, shouldn't ancestors of slaves be asking for apologies also from those on the African continent that were involved in the slave trade?
We could spend all of our time and energy going around apologizing to each other for past (and possible future) misdeeds or we can put the past behind us and make sure it doesn't happen in the future. Which action will be more beneficial in the long run?
"Point One, any apologizing should come from ancestors of slaveholders." --Oscar
Considering the same government of VA exists today as existed back then, I would consider an apology for that institution consistent with your point.
"Point Two, as a family that lost sons fighting for the Union in that horrible conflict, I could feel that my family is owed a "Thank you" from the ancestors of those we fought to help free (especially if we are expected to apologize) for something we had no part in (slavery) as far as I have researched." --Oscar
That part is a little more problematic. Not all northerners were happy about freeing the slaves, whereas a much higher percentage of blacks were slaves, so I am not sure about such an analogy, but I understand that point and it has some merrit.
"Point Three, do we really need to spend time apologizing for the actions of others? The number of slaveholders in our (USA) past was a small % of the population, where is it incumbent on any but ancestors of those to apologize?" --Oscar
That point is moot. The Commonwealth of VA is the institution apologizing for its complicity in slavery. It has nothing to do with individual slaveholders.
"Point Four, shouldn't ancestors of slaves be asking for apologies also from those on the African continent that were involved in the slave trade?" --Oscar
That point is a little disingenuous. I don't think it can be demonstrated how the governments of modern African nations had anything to do with slavery (another difference from the VA case). Who did you have in mind to ask?
"We could spend all of our time and energy going around apologizing to each other for past (and possible future) misdeeds or we can put the past behind us and make sure it doesn't happen in the future. Which action will be more beneficial in the long run?" --Oscar
I think that is an example of what is called a false dichotomy. It isn't an "either or" situation. We can do one, the other or both. Apologizing can be done in a way that costs us nothing. The opposition to this is pretty baffling, even after considering all of the (pretty weak IMO) arguments against it. Maybe there is a better argument that others have seen and I haven't.
Well Oscar,
Of course a thank you is owed and I have no problem saying THANK YOU to all the union soldiers that lost their lives in the civil war. I think most AAs would surely say thank you for your efforts in freeing my enslaved ancestors. That thank you from AA would be included in the national commemoration ceromony on slavery. So on behalf of myself and my family I want to go on record and say thank you to all the soldiers that sacrificed their lives and the abolitionist that dedicated their lives to ending slavery and finally correcting an evil that we allowed to exist within our borders. THANK YOU, FROM LYNN!
After reading the posts for 1 thru 233, all I can say is, "Coulter is an A-Hole". That's all folks.
If that offends anyone, I am sorry....or should I be? Does it show weakness? Does it show compassion? Will America forget 911, in let us say 50 years, and not expect an apology? Those who have posted against some type of acknowledgement of Slavery must say no.
Wow. Well, this thread has done one thing remarkably well. It has exposed the racism of nearly every single conservative poster. Amazing.
"Amazing" -Clams
Is it really that amazing? I think through the history of posts here, the truth has been obvious for a while.
What I don't get is their uniform opposition to something they consider meaningless. I wonder if the opposition could possibly be any stronger if they decided it actually had meaning.
If I thought the conservatives wanted to pass what I deemed "meaningless" legislation, I would say "go ahead".
It makes me suspicious that the conservatives are saying what they really mean here. It is likely there are some hidden motives judging from the behavior I have seen on this board.
It's just very convenient to have all this bald-faced racism cataloged in one thread (two, if you count the Tucker item below). Tommy, Evillib, the Col. et al. have all outed themselves as ignorant racists in the past, but now there's one convenient link to refer back to that proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt. I wouldn't say that I'm surprised, but I think I've finally reached the limits of my tolerance for their racism. Day in and day out almost everyone here bends over backwards to remain polite and civil when "debating" with these idiots, but for me, this thread is the straw that broke that camel's back. They are horrible racists and they've proven in this thread that there's absolutely no good reason for anyone to attempt to educate or enlighten them. They don't deserve one iota of respect. They are miserable fools and they clearly like it that way. There's no sense in engaging them on topics of race. It's enough to just call a racist a racist and move on.
Not me. I behave if they do but my days of bending over backwards are behind me. They start the hostility its on
Interesting. It looks like half this thread was deleted overnight, including all but one of Tommy's posts. I guess he should be thankful to whoever decided to remove him from the thread.
Well, you can always tell when there are soooo many posts that the trolls are out in force. They do tend to get us off topic. I think Ann Coulter and her stupidity was the topic. So good job trolls.
Clams, you are too right. I generally don't like to spend time trying to elucidate any trolls. It is generally hopeless...they have an inferiority complex and are exceptionally narcissistic, especailly Tommy who just likes to get replies. It validates them. I really wish people wouldn't feed these guys. Narcissists can go all day if you feed them.....it doesn't matter if it's positive or negative. Attention is what they crave.
God forgive me, but I actully agree with everything Ms Coulter had to say in this clip... I'm sure she'll horrify me another day. ~keith
Apologize for slavery...a quaint notion. First of all American whites did not invent slavery. Secondly, we accquired our slaves from africans who sold other africans to slave traders. Yes it was an evil enterprise and should have never happened but the white guilt associated with it is overblown and at the very least should be shared with other races, arabians, for example who established the African slave trade, and Africans themselves who facillitated it by providing other blacks for slavery. My final point is that if you look at the current living conditions of the progeny of former slaves I would contend that they are in a much better place than their African counterparts. Simply put hte life expectancy in Africa is 51 while in the U.S. it is 77. The average monthly in come in some parts of Africa is 14 dollars while the average income in america is over 43,000 dollars a year. This is not to say that slavery was not wrong but that the descendants of slaves are better off today than their African counterparts who reside in the most pverty and disease filled continent in the world. Apologize for slavery....no. While a horrible practice it was actually a blessing in disguise
"First of all American whites did not invent slavery." --Savagerocks
By that logic, if you don't invent something, you have no culpability. So as long as you haven't invented rape or murder, what is to be sorry for. How sociopathic of you.
"Secondly, we accquired our slaves from africans who sold other africans to slave traders." --Savagerocks
That is true and THEY had the decency to apologize for it. It is kind of sad when the 3rd world shows more class than we do.
"My final point is that if you look at the current living conditions of the progeny of former slaves I would contend that they are in a much better place than their African counterparts." --Savagerocks
That is true to a degree, I never would have met my wife if not for slavery, and black people in general enjoy a better standard of living today in America than in Africa. Of course, that point is moot. Removing peoples freedom in order to make life better for them in the end sounds more like an argument for communism than anything America believes in. The end doesn't justify the means. We aren't an amoral country. Besides, the idea that the slave trade was some sort of favor to blacks is about as patronizing an idea as I have seen. It cannot be reasonably argued that anyone in the slave trade thought they were doing slaves a favor at the time either.
The Holocaust was largely responsible for the creation of modern Israel. Does that mean Jewish people should be thankful the Holocaust happened?
It's funny that all of these conservatives will say out of one side of their mouths that Ann does not speak for mainstream conservatives. Then, out of the other side defend her statements as legitimate conservative thought. Go figure.
Do you guys feel dirty?
Why would we feel dirty? See the above post...I'm pretty sure that a lot of the people living in AIDS infested famine stricken Africa today wish every day their relatives were slaves. Yes it was an evil thing that happened to the Africans who were sold into slavery but their descendents, in the long run, are in a far better position than those whose ancestors were not subjected to slavery. And another thing, why should we apologize when it was Africans who supplied the traders with their product? Why is their no call for some Africans to apologize?
Fine.
Lie down with dogs.
Shirk your accountability but don't tell me about guilt.
In the same way that I am inexplicably honored by the bravery and sacrifice of my forefathers who fought and died for freedom, justice and equality; I am equally and utterly filled with remorse for their actions when I say I am unforgivably sorry for their part in slavery.
Slavery was wrong, is wrong period. Admitting that it was the wrong thing to do and apologizing for it is the right thing to do. But unless you feel the effects of what it is like to go through as a person of color, you really can't speak to it. That's why we have to walk a mile in other people's shoes before we speak. I feel like you Lynn, and I am going to do the same.
But for what Coulter says, even she knows she's half out of her mind. It sells, it keeps her in the spotlight and it energizes the sector of society that keeps her afloat. If, for example, her books stopped selling, her appearances dried up, she would be nothing. A footnote of insanity. And because conservative philosophy has proven to be an abject failure, those who agree with it will go the same way. Just today, President Putin blasted our foreign policy because of the things that have been done in the name of America for the cause of spreading democracy. And, I think Gates just disregarded his comments altogether and would not give credence to the truth of what he was saying.
When are we going to learn? Haven't we spilled enough blood, disrespected enough people and stolen from them to understand that unless we look at ourselves and clean up our own backyard that we can't tell anyone else what to do?