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Politico's Allen (again) ignored McCain's inconsistencies to call him "staunchly anti-abortion"

February 21, 2007 10:53 am ET
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SUMMARY: In a Politico article on the 2008 presidential candidates' personal "drawbacks," Mike Allen described Sen. John McCain as "staunchly anti-abortion," again ignoring McCain's inconsistency on abortion and the various statements he has made on the issue of whether Roe v. Wade should be overturned. Allen has previously characterized McCain as "socially moderate" and a "moderate" who might appeal to California voters, who Allen said "overwhelmingly" support abortion rights.

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In a February 19 Politico article purporting to examine the 2008 presidential candidates' personal "drawbacks," chief political correspondent Mike Allen described Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) as "staunchly anti-abortion" and quoted McCain's statement from his February 18 appearance at a rally in South Carolina that "I do not support Roe v. Wade. It should be overturned." As in his previous reporting, Allen ignored McCain's stark inconsistency on abortion and the various statements he has made on the issue of whether Roe v. Wade should be overturned. Moreover, Allen's "staunchly anti-abortion" characterization of McCain appeared to depart from his February 14 description of McCain as "socially moderate" and his February 15 suggestion that a "moderate" like McCain might appeal to California voters, who Allen said "overwhelmingly" support abortion rights.

Additionally, Allen relied on Republican talking points in examining Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton's (D-NY) alleged "drawbacks," writing that "Clinton's attempt to deal with" her position on the Iraq war "has been the most labored and agonizingly public of any of the candidates' efforts to recalibrate their images, with the Republican National Committee collecting her evolving quotes and mocking them as 'Hillary's Kerryaoke On Iraq.' " But the quotes collected by the RNC to which Allen referred falsely suggested a contradiction between Clinton's recent statements on Iraq and her comments from a 2002 appearance on NBC's Meet the Press.

Allen wrote:

Sen. John McCain: The Arizonan's chief vulnerability is ideological. Even though McCain is staunchly anti-abortion, conservatives don't trust him because he voted against Bush's tax cuts and championed campaign finance reform, which many activists saw as a do-gooder intervention that hurt some of their pet organizations. Over the weekend, McCain confronted these doubts among social conservatives head-on, attending an abstinence rally in Spartanburg, S.C. Later, at a rally, referring to the Supreme Court decision legalizing abortion, he said: "I do not support Roe v. Wade. It should be overturned."

As Media Matters for America noted, On August 25, 1999, the San Francisco Chronicle reported that McCain had told its editorial board:

"I'd love to see a point where it is irrelevant and could be repealed because abortion is no longer necessary. ... But certainly in the short term, or even the long term, I would not support repeal of Roe vs. Wade, which would then force X number of women in America to (undergo) illegal and dangerous operations."

But several days later, he issued what the San Francisco Chronicle called a "clarification," reportedly saying: "I have always believed in the importance of the repeal of Roe vs. Wade, and as president, I would work toward its repeal." And adding:

"If Roe v. Wade were repealed tomorrow, it would force thousands of young women to undergo dangerous and illegal operations. I will continue to work with both pro-life and pro-choice Americans so that we can eliminate the need for abortions to be performed in this country."

In 2006, McCain also issued a statement indicating that if he were the governor of South Dakota, he "would have signed" a controversial bill outlawing all abortions except when the life of the woman is threatened, but that he "would also take the appropriate steps under state law -- in whatever state -- to ensure that the exceptions of rape, incest or life of the mother were included." As New York Times columnist Paul Krugman noted: "But that attempt at qualification makes no sense: the South Dakota law has produced national shockwaves precisely because it prohibits abortions even for victims of rape or incest."

Allen continued:

Hillary Clinton: Many Democratic strategists predicted the New York senator would eventually be boxed into saying it was a mistake to vote to authorize military force against Iraq, and her team recognizes that -- at least for now -- some activists won't be satisfied if she stops short of that. But she declared in New Hampshire over the weekend that although "she would not vote that way again if we knew then what we know now": "If the most important thing to any of you is choosing someone who did not cast that vote or said his vote was a mistake, then there are others to choose from. But for me, the most important thing now is trying to end this war."

Clinton's attempt to deal with her initial Achilles' heel has been the most labored and agonizingly public of any of the candidates' efforts to recalibrate their images, with the Republican National Committee collecting her evolving quotes and mocking them as "Hillary's Kerryaoke On Iraq."

The RNC attack to which Allen referred, however, falsely claimed that, in 2002, Clinton "Was Singing A Different Tune" on Iraq. The RNC contrasted the following statements from Clinton:

Sen. Clinton: "I have taken responsibility for that vote. It was based on the best assessment that I could make at the time, and it was clearly intended to demonstrate support for going to the United Nations to put inspectors into Iraq." (John DiStaso, "Hillary: I Didn't Vote For 'Pre-Emptive War,' " The [Manchester] Union Leader, 2/10/07)

[...]

Sen. Clinton: "I can support the President, I can support an action against Saddam Hussein because I think it's in the long-term interests of our national security ..." (NBC's "Meet The Press,' 9/15/02)

However, as Media Matters documented when ABC News senior national correspondent Jake Tapper asserted a similar "contradiction," Clinton specifically argued in favor of inspections during the very Meet the Press interview from which the RNC quoted and in a subsequent speech on the Senate floor. Absent this context, the truncated 2002 quote leaves the false impression that Clinton unequivocally supported pre-emptive military action against Iraq.

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    • Author by Limit Corp. Ownership (February 21, 2007 1:21 pm ET)
         

      Isn't it great to be a Republican...

      You can be a moderate one day, then hard right the next.  You can humiliate yourself, even.

      The corporate press will cover your ass.

      Report Abuse
    • Author by tommy (February 21, 2007 1:21 pm ET)
         

      Not defending McCain, the most politically expedient politician around these days, but it is possible to be "staunchly anti-abortion" and want Roe v Wade overturned - yet not wanting abortion to be criminalized.  Roe v Wade should be overturned, it's bad law.  It should be sent back to the states where it would most likely still be legal in most, if not all. 

      Being "anti-abortion", as opposed to "pro-abortion", is a position advocating the procedure be as rare as possible - very reasonable.  That doesn't mean that it should be illegal, however.  

      Report Abuse
      • Author by nerzog (February 21, 2007 1:25 pm ET)
           

        Tommy, while your characterization may be technically correct, it's far too subtle for the  mouth-breathing Troglodytes in the Religious Right.  I promise that they make no such distinction.  When a politician says "overturn Roe v. Wade", they hear "make abortion a Federal Crime".  Trust me on this.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by tommy (February 21, 2007 1:35 pm ET)
             

          Nerzog,

          You may be right on some, however there are many who believe that Roe is bad law and should be a state's issue.  I see no organized movement that has a snowball's chance of ever crimilazing abortion in this country, it will never happen - and shouldn't.  There are those that want that, but there are also those that want ice water in hell, too.  Overturning Roe is not making abortion illegal - that is a scare tactic used by many on the left, but it ain't so.

          Report Abuse
      • Author by bingvangorden (February 21, 2007 1:34 pm ET)
           

        The 4th amendment to the Constitution disagrees with you. There is a right to privacy that prevents the federal or state government to pass laws infringing on that right. There is no way to police abortion with out violating patient and doctor confidentiality. So, no it can't be left up to the states and really isn't up for debate. Roe V Wade is good law rooted in the Constitution.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by tommy (February 21, 2007 1:36 pm ET)
             

          There is no explicit right to privacy in the constitution.  It is implied.

          Report Abuse
          • Author by nerzog (February 21, 2007 1:39 pm ET)
               

            A lot of things we take for granted are only "implied" in the Constitution.  Among them are the separation of powers, checks and balances, executive privelege, right to a fair trial...etc.

            Report Abuse
          • Author by bingvangorden (February 21, 2007 1:45 pm ET)
               

            "Implied" You are correct. The phrase "right to privacy" like right of habeas corpus or "seperation of church and state" are all implied. What's your point?

            Report Abuse
    • Author by bingvangorden (February 21, 2007 1:48 pm ET)
         

      "The right of the people to be secure intheir persons, houses, papers and effects, against unreasonable search and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation........"

      The right to be secure in your person is a right to privacy.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by conleytgwinn (February 21, 2007 2:01 pm ET)
           

        The right-wing found itself forced to attack use of the Fourth as a cornerstone of Roe, despite the prediliction of the Supremes to emphasize privacy as the root of the Fourth Amendment - most notable in - yes, conservative Courts. Suddenly, privacy is an invented right, blamed on the liberals, and without support in the Constitution! As with the NSA crapola (which Cheney launched even before taking the oath of office - no use waiting for 9/11, was there?), these liars are sufficiently accomplished to support whatever they may need today, without concern for it's application to tomorrow.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by bingvangorden (February 21, 2007 2:11 pm ET)
             

          well said, well said.

          Report Abuse
        • Author by nerzog (February 21, 2007 5:29 pm ET)
             

          How true.  I could be wrong, but I bet these same people would suddenly resurrect the "right to privacy" if the ATF started going house to house to count everybody's guns.

          Report Abuse
      • Author by clsn_lx1315 (February 21, 2007 5:59 pm ET)
           

        By saying, "Roe V Wade is good law rooted in the Constitution", you lost all of your intellectual credibility. Either you have a weak understanding of the Constitution or you embrace the malarky that it's a "living document" where it can be twisted into anything you want it to say (like the Roe v Wade decision).

        Report Abuse
        • Author by bingvangorden (February 21, 2007 8:16 pm ET)
             

          Malarky? That is the most ignorant thing I've ever heard. The Bill of Rights were amended to the Constitution before the ink was dry on the original document. If it is not a living document then blacks and women don't have the right to vote. Of course the Constitution is a living document and if you read the works of Madison and Jefferson you'd know that is so basic. Abortion never would have come before the Supreme Court if state's hadn't made laws agaist it. Roe v Wade is rooted in the 4th amendment of the constitution. A right to privacy prevents congress from making law that violates that. A woman is secure in her person. It's her womb and not the government's. You have no credibility. Take a civics course for Pete's sake!

          Report Abuse
        • Author by bingvangorden (February 21, 2007 8:20 pm ET)
             

          You said "intellectual credibilty" hahahahahahahahahahaha oh hoo why that was very funny.

          thnaks, 

          Report Abuse
    • Author by DorisRussell (February 21, 2007 1:51 pm ET)
         

      McCain

      Regardless of is inconsitencies the man is today a "Staunch anti choice " candidate and he needs to be exposed as a major threat to a womens right to choose.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by bingvangorden (February 21, 2007 1:59 pm ET)
           

        Yes Doris. Why is it the party of less government wants to use government to climb inside women's wombs?

        Report Abuse
    • Author by rusty shackleford (February 21, 2007 2:05 pm ET)
         

      McCain is "staunchly anti-abortion" in that he personally has never had one.  Otherwise, his opinion seems to depend on his audience.

      Report Abuse
    • Author by open_mind (February 21, 2007 2:41 pm ET)
         

      "McCain confronted these doubts among social conservatives head-on, attending an abstinence rally in Spartanburg, S.C."

      What the hell is an "abstinence rally"?  How lame is that?  Is their motto "Make war! Not love!"?

      Report Abuse
      • Author by rusty shackleford (February 21, 2007 2:51 pm ET)
           

        They followed it up with a huge temperance blowout.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by open_mind (February 21, 2007 11:24 pm ET)
             

          I can picture these goobers trying hard to pretend they are reeeeaaaalllyy enjoying not having sex right now or any time in the near future.

          No wonder these morons are always itching for a fight.

          Report Abuse
      • Author by HuntingtonBeachLefty (February 21, 2007 3:23 pm ET)
           

        What the hell is an "abstinence rally"?

        I thought it was a race.I guess the idea is you get a huge group of young people together, get them all fired up with adrenaline and hormones, then say "ladies and gentleman, suppress your urges!"

        Report Abuse
    • Author by jimmielee40 (February 21, 2007 4:43 pm ET)
         

      How many American soldiers do the Iranians have to kill before we stop being like the euroweenies and start kicking some Iranian ass.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by rusty shackleford (February 21, 2007 5:02 pm ET)
           

        Thank you Professor Offtopic.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by HuntingtonBeachLefty (February 22, 2007 1:06 am ET)
             

          I was at work, pretendind to be busy, when I read "Professor OffTopic" and blew a mouthful of water onto my desk.Thanks, Rusty.Everybody knew I was loafing.

          Report Abuse
          • Author by clsn_lx1315 (February 22, 2007 5:24 pm ET)
               

            "I was at work, pretendind to be busy, when I read "Professor OffTopic" and blew a mouthful of water onto my desk."

            Are you sure it wasn't the 6-pack you had for lunch?

            Report Abuse
            • Author by HuntingtonBeachLefty (February 23, 2007 10:10 am ET)
                 

              I don't understand. Drinking beer at lunch would make me burst into laughter sometime later? Your incoherence is alarming.

              Report Abuse
      • Author by bingvangorden (February 21, 2007 5:13 pm ET)
           

        You are probably unaware but the people of Iran are very western, are not arabic and don't like their wing nut president any more than we do. If you like killing so much, please enlist our military needs you and the standards for enlistment are so low, even you could make it.

        Report Abuse
      • Author by nerzog (February 21, 2007 5:24 pm ET)
           

        Jimmieweenie,  a lot of American soldiers have probably been killed with weapons sold to Saddam by Donald Rumsfeld.  Shall we bomb Rumsfeld's house while we're at it?  Just asking.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by bingvangorden (February 21, 2007 5:28 pm ET)
             

          Yes and the Pentagon recently just stopped selling Iran parts for the F-14 Tomcats we sold them previously. Didn't Eisenhower say something about the industrial military complex? Our government all too often has played both sides, arming the world without any concern whether or not the people we arm and train may one day turn our own weapons against us.

          Report Abuse
          • Author by nerzog (February 21, 2007 6:38 pm ET)
               

            Exactly.  That's why I have to laugh every time they show those pictures of weapons with numbers that "prove" Iran is supplying the insurgents in Iraq.  Hell, I'd hate to think the U.S. would be held responsible for all the evil done with weapons we've given or sold to various parties over the years.  Yikes!

            Report Abuse
            • Author by redking75687 (February 22, 2007 2:27 am ET)
                 

              World's largest arms dealers.....Carlysle Group. Pappa Bush ex-employee, Tony Blair already signed on before he's left England. They're making a mint on this. Halliburton, Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, all cashing in.

              $600 billion a year for war-making. Russia only spends $50 billion a year and that's number 2 in the world. The military/industrial complex is now a monster.

              Report Abuse
    • Author by jimmielee40 (February 21, 2007 4:52 pm ET)
         

      Abortion was never a subject to come before federal judges. It is not enumerated and therefore falls to the stats or the people. There was no constitutional issue to be decided and it was only taken up because of the willingness of justices to put their views into law.

       

      When babies, born or unborn, are given a similar power to terminate the mother,  I will see the wisdom of the mothers right to kill her offspring.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by rusty shackleford (February 21, 2007 5:04 pm ET)
           

        Abortion was never a subject to come before federal judges.

        If only all those federal judges knew as much about the law as you do. 

        Report Abuse
      • Author by bingvangorden (February 21, 2007 5:11 pm ET)
           

        You have a profound ignorance at how our justice system works. A woman wanted an abortion, the state of Texas had laws against it. A couple of lawyers took it to the Supreme Court and argued their case effectively. Tell me genius, how is it Constitutional for the government to make laws regarding your person or a woman's womb? How would you prosecute doctors or women without violating the 4th Amendment? Answer: you can't.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by clsn_lx1315 (February 21, 2007 6:25 pm ET)
             

          One of these days, Bing, you'll probably get a Leftist Nazi judge to say the 4th guarantees Bing the "right" to kill somone like Clsn_lx (as long as Bing does it in "private"). European countries are currently considering laws making it legal to kill babies with Down Syndrome. AFTER THEY ARE BORN!!! It's you selfish, greedy, death-worshipping Leftists who have twisted the US Constitution to your perverted ends. Congratulations you blood-thirsty murderers! 48 Million and counting!

          Report Abuse
          • Author by clsn_lx1315 (February 21, 2007 6:28 pm ET)
               

            One more thing, Bing. I'm sure you'll have me flagged and banned from this site for dissenting from the murderous groupthink. It would be typical of cowards like you.

            Report Abuse
            • Author by bingvangorden (February 21, 2007 7:19 pm ET)
                 

              oooh yummy! How hateful of you. No. You have every right to post here as long as your not vulgar or juvenile. I applaud your willingness to expose your ignorance to everyone. Because you see, you are wrong again. We aren't cowards who are willing to bend over and let the government brush the Constitution aside. We aren't cowards who will allow our government to drag our good name through the mud. We aren't the cowards who are willing to sit back and let someone else's loved one go die in a country that had nothing to do with 9-11. We aren't the cowards who cheered on a war based on obvious lies. We aren't the cowards ignoring the real threats abroad, in Indonesia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Africa. We aren't the cowards dude. You are. Group think? That's a good one. It's group think that has us in this mess and it aint from us jack.

              Report Abuse
            • Author by rusty shackleford (February 22, 2007 9:32 am ET)
                 

              Hey AA, why are you wasting time here?  Don't you have a clinic to go bomb?  Think of all the babies who are being murdered because you lack the courage of your convictions and waste all your time yelling at liberals on the internets.

              Report Abuse
          • Author by bingvangorden (February 21, 2007 7:05 pm ET)
               

            Not that I think you'll come back but sorry you are completely wrong. Let me tell you what being a liberal means to an actual liberal. Liberty for all. The governmen, an extension of we the people, is in the business of protecting liberty. Obviously murdering someone in private is just as illegal as in public. That's not a valid argument. Secondly, I sincerely doubt your claim about killing kids with down syndrom in Europe and I assure you that is not something concidered to be "liberal" by me, a liberal. Thirdly, we're the compassionate ones, not you. We actually want to care for those who can't help themselves. We're the one's trying to help the homeless, stop the death penalty and implement social programs for underpriviledged people. Just because we understand a woman has a constitutionally protected right to have a medical procedure without government interference. However repugnant or genocidal you think it may be, it's not the government's business. The only twisting I do of the Constitution is the copy I carry around with me from the CATO institute in my bag. I actually read it. And I read what our founding father's wrote to have a better understanding ofjust exactly what it means. And you are dead wrong. Have a wonderful day and try not to kill anyone.

            Report Abuse
          • Author by HuntingtonBeachLefty (February 21, 2007 7:25 pm ET)
               

            "Leftist Nazi "

            Har !

            Report Abuse
          • Author by open_mind (February 21, 2007 11:10 pm ET)
               

            "Leftist Nazi judge" --clsn_lx1315

            Obviously you have no idea what you are talking about.

            Report Abuse
      • Author by HuntingtonBeachLefty (February 21, 2007 5:30 pm ET)
           

        When babies, born or unborn, are given a similar power to terminate the mother...

        Awesome! I'd see that movie.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by HuntingtonBeachLefty (February 21, 2007 5:32 pm ET)
             

          kidding aside, there are still some deaths during childbirth, and post-partum depression related suicide, so babies (born and unborn) do have some killer powers.

          Report Abuse
        • Author by bingvangorden (February 21, 2007 7:13 pm ET)
             

          I once had the challenge of defending abortion in a High School debate class. We were outnumbered 16 to 2. Despite their odds they made the mistake of counting on stumping us with one rhetorical question, more like a zen koan actually. It was this; What if your mother had aborted you?

          My answer was simply I wouldn't have been born. I never would have existed to experience the regret of never existing. After all, who here has been aborted? no one? Well then, carry on.

          Report Abuse
          • Author by HuntingtonBeachLefty (February 21, 2007 7:42 pm ET)
               

            Right, Bing. I think the real fringe anti-abortion people, while they can look at "Islamo-fascists" as these completely dehumanized, faceless evildoers, they personalize abortion to the point that the "unborn babies" are little kids playing in some sort of waiting room.

            I suppose it comes from the whole "soul" concept, I've heard enough people say "I'm sure glad my mom didn't abort me". As if they'd know.

            Report Abuse
            • Author by bingvangorden (February 21, 2007 7:57 pm ET)
                 

              Yeah, the soul or the potential of the soul or the idea that the unborn are un corrupted. I don't know the facination with protecting a cluster of cells with the potential of becoming a human being but have little regard for the bum on the street who's down on their luck. I mean a soul is a soul right?

              Report Abuse
              • Author by HuntingtonBeachLefty (February 22, 2007 1:11 am ET)
                   

                "little regard for the bum on the street"

                Please, Bing. You've got to keep up the PC appearances for the trolls.

                It's "homeless" , "residentially challenged", or "urban outdoorsman".

                Although the guy down by the pier who I give my old guitar strings to, I usually ask him "How ya doin, ya bum", and he says "How bout yourself, ya bum", so I guess it's OK.

                Report Abuse
                • Author by bingvangorden (February 22, 2007 4:03 pm ET)
                     

                  I prefer the term, "voluntary domicile forgoer." Because we all know the homeless want to be homeless.

                  ;^}

                  Report Abuse
                • Author by clsn_lx1315 (February 22, 2007 5:11 pm ET)
                     

                  You give your old guitar strings to a homeless person, HBL? Oh my God! I take everything back. You really are a compassionate person from the Left. Do you also give him your pocket lint?

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by bingvangorden (February 22, 2007 5:31 pm ET)
                       

                    no pocket lint, just a little dignity.

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by clsn_lx1315 (February 22, 2007 5:40 pm ET)
                         

                      So giving your worn out guitar strings to a homeless person is "giving them a little dignity"? I don't think I'll ever understand Liberals.

                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by rusty shackleford (February 22, 2007 5:48 pm ET)
                           

                        Whereas a Conservative would just yell "get a job!"  Maybe spit on him too, just for kicks. 

                        Report Abuse
                  • Author by HuntingtonBeachLefty (February 23, 2007 10:15 am ET)
                       

                    No, he's never asked for the lint. That doesn't even make sense.

                    Report Abuse
            • Author by open_mind (February 21, 2007 11:20 pm ET)
                 

              Interesting that you bring that up.  Linguistic understanding of the New Testament would seem to indicate the soul doesn't enter the body (outside of some rare exceptional cases like prophets and holy men) until the first breath. 

              "Soul" in the NT is translated from "psyche" (Ancient Greek for breath).  "Spirit" in the Bible is translated from "pneuma" (also Ancient Greek for breath).

              Interesting when it is considered that the only real difference between a fetus and a baby is breath.

              Report Abuse
              • Author by HuntingtonBeachLefty (February 22, 2007 1:14 am ET)
                   

                Gee, openmind,

                I bet if most Christians read and understood the Bible as much as you do, the world would be a lot better place. Cheers.

                Report Abuse
              • Author by clsn_lx1315 (February 22, 2007 5:36 pm ET)
                   

                Interesting that you didn't quote Jeremiah 1:5. "Before I (God)formed you in the womb I knew you..."

                Feel free to disagree with God but I won't wish you luck.

                Report Abuse
    • Author by bingvangorden (February 21, 2007 7:39 pm ET)
         

      Where'd all the con trolls go? I was just getting started.

      Report Abuse
    • Author by T-Hone (February 22, 2007 7:31 am ET)
         

      I hate to tell everyone here, but Roe vs. Wade was a Supreme Court case, not a law, as several people (right and left) have asserted here.  It judged the Constitutionality of abortion laws and concluded that they violated a woman's right to privacy.  Please get it right.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by clsn_lx1315 (February 22, 2007 11:37 am ET)
           

        That is the reason Roe v Wade should-and will- be overturned. It was by far the worst decision ever handed down by the "living document" crowd on the court. Hey Bing, why don't you pull out your Cato copy of the Constitution (BTW, I buy them in volume and give them to local schools and I put a copy in every kid's bag at holloween) and explain, judicially, how Amendment IV, which protects the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, was twisted to mean babies could be slaughtered in the womb? How about you, HBL?

        Report Abuse
        • Author by rusty shackleford (February 22, 2007 11:53 am ET)
             

          Where'd you get your J.D., Clsn?  Just curious.

          Report Abuse
        • Author by bingvangorden (February 22, 2007 12:25 pm ET)
             

          Sure that's easy. It's a woman's body. the government per the 4th amendment, can not violate the woman's person. Simple enough for you genius? Why don't you crack one of those copies open and read it. It's very simple really. I don't know how to explain it easier. You view abortion as murder, that's your perogative. It's not accurate however because murder is done to a person, not a cluster of cells that might form into a human being some day under the right conditions.

          Report Abuse
          • Author by rusty shackleford (February 22, 2007 12:32 pm ET)
               

            Roe isn't based solely on the Fourth Amendment, as AA would know if he had actually read and understood the case.

            Report Abuse
            • Author by clsn_lx1315 (February 22, 2007 2:14 pm ET)
                 

              If you and Bing understood the Constitution, you'd know that the decision in Roe was an absolute abomination, judicially speaking. 

              And as far as the Constitution being a "living document", it can be changed by amendment but shouldn't be twisted by radical judges for political purposes, which is EXACTLY what the Roe decision was. Many legal scholars (unlike "law professors" Bing and HBL) admit it.

              http://www.timothypcarney.com/?page_id=176

               

              Report Abuse
              • Author by rusty shackleford (February 22, 2007 2:31 pm ET)
                   

                I understand the Constitution just fine, thanks.  And of course many legal scholars have problems with Roe - just like they do with many, many Supreme Court decisions (Bush v. Gore, for instance).

                But linking to websites doesn't show that you actually know what you're talking about, AA.  You proved that when you said Roe is based on the Fourth Amendment.

                Report Abuse
                • Author by clsn_lx1315 (February 22, 2007 5:21 pm ET)
                     

                  I don't know why you keep using the term "AA". Maybe you're late for your meeting? It's OK that you can't defend Roe on Constitutional grounds. Neither can anybody else with such a rudimentary understanding of the Constitution.

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by rusty shackleford (February 22, 2007 5:24 pm ET)
                       

                    I'm calling you "AA" because I thought you were a different abortion troll named AnotherAmerican.

                    As for the Constitution, I'll put my J.D. and license to practice law up against yours any day of the week.

                    What's that?  You don't have either?  Imagine my surprise. 

                    Off to the clinic with you now.  Abortionists to kill, babies to save.  God is watching.

                    Report Abuse
              • Author by bingvangorden (February 22, 2007 4:15 pm ET)
                   

                I'm no law professor brother. Just an informed citizen. But thanks.

                Report Abuse
          • Author by clsn_lx1315 (February 22, 2007 2:23 pm ET)
               

            "Sure that's easy. It's a woman's body." -Law Professor Bing

            First off, there's another life involved no matter how hard you'd like to deny it. Second, how do you explain the fact that this same woman doesn't have the "right" to ingest illegal drugs? After all, "It's her body."

            Report Abuse
            • Author by rusty shackleford (February 22, 2007 3:00 pm ET)
                 

              What gives you the right to decide what other people do with their bodies?

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              • Author by clsn_lx1315 (February 22, 2007 6:13 pm ET)
                   

                You're changing the subject, Rusty. Defend Roe on Constitutional grounds. You know you can't do it so please quit pretending.

                Report Abuse
            • Author by bingvangorden (February 22, 2007 4:10 pm ET)
                 

              We can argue about drug laws another time.

              The abortion issue, mother trumps fetus everytime. That's not to say I think abortion is a wonderful thing and should be performed "on demand" as some righties like to imply. Abortion sucks. There is a potential life lost and it's not a decision that should be taken lightly. But embryos and zygotes don't have constitutional rights friend. I'm sorry if that's too crass for you but it's the way it is.

              On a enforcement issue. How can doctors or patients involved in abortions be prosecuted without government snooping in our medical records? How far do we take this? If a pregnant woman smokes is that child endangerment. Do you want the government to start getting that deeply involved in the lives of women?

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              • Author by rusty shackleford (February 22, 2007 4:34 pm ET)
                   

                Also, since "abortion is murder", will the doctor get the death penalty?  Will the mother? 

                Report Abuse
                • Author by bingvangorden (February 22, 2007 4:47 pm ET)
                     

                  And how culpable is the father? Did he put her up to it? Did he force her to have sex or pressure her into it?

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by rusty shackleford (February 22, 2007 4:52 pm ET)
                       

                    Did he pressure her to get an abortion?  Is he guilty of murder too?  Conspiracy to commit murder?  Accessory to murder?  Death penalty for the father? 

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by rusty shackleford (February 22, 2007 5:36 pm ET)
                         

                      Clsn?  Afraid of the tough questions?

                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by clsn_lx1315 (February 22, 2007 6:09 pm ET)
                           

                        Wow, Rusty. You, HBL and Bing are getting worked up into a lather. I see your frustration in trying to defend the Constitutionally indefensible decision made in Roe. Try using the precise wording of the Constitution to defend Roe instead of emotionally charged rhetoric if you would, please.  

                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by rusty shackleford (February 23, 2007 9:00 am ET)
                             

                          Read the opinion (it's hard, I know, but do try).  I know the law, but I can't outdo Justice Blackmun.  If that is too much for you, read conservative Justice O'Connor's opinion in Casey, which reaffirmed Roe's central holding.  She's a very lucid writer, much more so than I.  She uses some big words though, so keep that dictionary handy.

                          Report Abuse
        • Author by bingvangorden (February 22, 2007 12:28 pm ET)
             

          Read the freakin case if you want a judicial interpretation. It's pretty easy to understand. Go abort yourself, oops too late. oh well.

          Report Abuse
        • Author by HuntingtonBeachLefty (February 22, 2007 2:11 pm ET)
             

          The Constitution doesn't explicitly say you can have a root canal either.It doesn't say you must, by law, have one.

          I know it's been pointed out alrady, but you have the right to the opinion that a fetus, or two cells even, is a person. You can also not eat meat if you consider that murder.I would not support mandatory state -forced abortions, even for your potential offspring.

          All I ask is the same respect for my position.Thanks.

          Report Abuse
          • Author by clsn_lx1315 (February 22, 2007 6:22 pm ET)
               

            "All I ask is the same respect for my position.Thanks."

            And all I ask is that you defend the court's decision in Roe based on the precise wording of the Constitution. So far none of you have been able to do it. I don't blame you. It's impossible.

            Report Abuse
            • Author by rusty shackleford (February 23, 2007 9:03 am ET)
                 

              The Fourth, Fifth, Ninth, and Fourteenth amendments, taken together, indicate that there is a sphere of personal privacy into which the government is powerless to intrude.

              It's defended.  You lose. 

              Report Abuse
            • Author by HuntingtonBeachLefty (February 23, 2007 10:23 am ET)
                 

              clsn, I hear this quite a bit, religious nuts trying to camouflage their ideology by citing the "poor reasoning" or "bad law" angle of Roe v. Wade, but when pressed, conservatives have never been able to tell me what their problem is with it.

              So, rather than my digging up the entire case and showing where it's not flawed, why don't you tell us, precisely. where you think the weakness is in the ruling.This is where the regurgitating of dittohead talking points usually gets pretty quiet.

              Report Abuse
              • Author by clsn_lx1315 (February 23, 2007 1:34 pm ET)
                   

                One word, moron: Penumbra.

                Report Abuse
                • Author by rusty shackleford (February 23, 2007 1:51 pm ET)
                     

                  For someone who claims to love babies so much, you certainly are full of anger and hate.

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by clsn_lx1315 (February 23, 2007 2:00 pm ET)
                       

                    From you, Rusty: "I'm calling you "AA" because I thought you were a different abortion troll named AnotherAmerican. As for the Constitution, I'll put my J.D. and license to practice law up against yours any day of the week.What's that?  You don't have either?  Imagine my surprise. Off to the clinic with you now.  Abortionists to kill, babies to save.  God is watching.

                    Glass houses?

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by rusty shackleford (February 23, 2007 2:04 pm ET)
                         

                      No anger and hatred there.  Just accurate observations and honest advice.

                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by clsn_lx1315 (February 23, 2007 6:44 pm ET)
                           

                        Are you sure you don't mean "penumbras formed by eminations", Rusty?

                        Report Abuse
      • Author by bingvangorden (February 22, 2007 12:22 pm ET)
           

        SCOTUS interprets law based on the constitution. What's your point?

        Report Abuse
        • Author by clsn_lx1315 (February 23, 2007 1:55 pm ET)
             

          Wrong, Bing. SCOTUS USED to interpret law based on the Constitution. They now rely on "penumbras, formed by eminations" and other such voodoo to twist the Constitution to mean anything they want it to mean. Nice try.

          Report Abuse
          • Author by rusty shackleford (February 23, 2007 2:11 pm ET)
               

            More knowledgeable about Constitutional interpretation:

            - Supreme Court Justices Douglas, Warren, Brennan, Goldberg, Harlan, White, Blackmun, Burger, Stewart, Marshall, Powell, O'Connor, Kennedy, Souter, and Stevens,

            OR....

            - Clsn_Lx? 

            Report Abuse
            • Author by clsn_lx1315 (February 23, 2007 7:02 pm ET)
                 

              Why can't you defend your point Rusty? As a "licensed lawyer", aren't you a little embarrassed by just listing amendments to make your "argument"? Last chance, Rusty: Explain for the "laymen" here why the radicals on the court resorted to "penumbras formed by eminations" to get to their predetermined, political outcome. I'm waiting.  

              Report Abuse

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