NY Times article on Gore leaves out inconvenient truths
In a March 13 article headlined "From a Rapt Audience, a Call to Cool the Hype," New York Times science writer William J. Broad reported on criticism of former Vice President Al Gore's portrayal of the threat of global warming in the documentary An Inconvenient Truth by citing scientists who "argue that some of Mr. Gore's central points are exaggerated and erroneous." Broad wrote that "scientists are sensitive to [the film's] details and claims" and that Gore has received criticism not "only from conservative groups and prominent skeptics of catastrophic warming, but also from rank-and-file scientists." But of the sources cited in the article, at least four have records of misinformation on the issue. Though three of these were identified as skeptics or as having expressed skepticism, in all four cases, their past statements or studies questioning global warming theory have been debunked or discredited by the scientific community -- which Broad did not report.
Massachusetts Institute of Technology professor Richard Lindzen was identified in the article as a scientist "who has long expressed skepticism about dire climate predictions." But the article failed to mention that Lindzen has previously appeared on talk shows to contradict the consensus on global warming and has falsely claimed that "there is no agreement that the warming we've seen is due to man." Lindzen has also understated the extent of warming that has occurred and the level of scientific certainty that man has contributed to that warming. Indeed, during a May 26, 2006, appearance on CNN Headline News' Glenn Beck, he agreed with Beck's false claim that in the last century "temperatures here in America" are "pretty much flat," responding: "Well, yes, as far as we can tell."
Bjørn Lomborg
The Times article cited Bjørn Lomborg, the associate professor of statistics in the Department of Political Science at the University of Aarhus in Denmark, as someone who has been "long skeptical of catastrophic global warming." But Broad did not report that in his book, The Skeptical Environmentalist (Cambridge University Press, September 2001), Lomborg purported to conduct a "non-partisan analysis" of environmental data in the hope of offering the public and policymakers a guide for "clear-headed prioritization of resources to tackle real, not imagined, problems." His conclusion was that the concerns of scientists regarding the world's environmental problems -- including global warming -- were universally overblown. But in January 2002, Scientific American ran a series of articles from four well-known environmental specialists that lambasted Lomborg's book for "egregious distortions," "elementary blunders of quantitative manipulation and presentation that no self-respecting statistician ought to commit," and sections that were "poorly researched and ... rife with careless mistakes."
A backgrounder by the Union of Concerned Scientists similarly reported that Lomborg's findings and methodology "fails to meet basic standards of credible scientific analysis."
Roy Spencer
The article further cited Roy Spencer, who was identified only as "a climatologist at the University of Alabama, Huntsville." But the article did not note that Spencer co-authored a 2003 global warming study with John Christy, the director of the Earth System Science Center at the University of Alabama-Huntsville. Their report, which concluded that the troposphere had not warmed in recent decades, was ultimately found to have significant errors. As the Times itself reported on August 12, 2005, when their miscalculations were taken into account, the data used in their study actually showed warming in the troposphere.
Spencer has ties to the George C. Marshall Institute, which Congressional Quarterly has described as "a Washington-based think tank supported by industry and conservative foundations that focuses primarily on trying to debunk global warming as a threat." Beyond his criticism of global warming theory, Spencer has also taken up another cause that places him well outside the scientific mainstream -- his view that "intelligent design, as a theory of origins, is no more religious, and no less scientific, than evolutionism."
In his article, Broad cited Benny J. Peiser, "a social anthropologist in Britain," as having "challenged the claim of scientific consensus with examples of pointed disagreement." Peiser was quoted saying, "Hardly a week goes by ... without a new research paper that questions part or even some basics of climate change theory." But Peiser previously made identical remarks after acknowledging that he does not "doubt that the overwhelming majority of climatologists is agreed that the current warming period is mostly due to human impact." In an October 2006 letter to the Australian media analysis organization Media Watch, Peiser wrote:
I do not think anyone is questioning that we are in a period of global warming. Neither do I doubt that the overwhelming majority of climatologists is agreed that the current warming period is mostly due to human impact. However, this majority consensus is far from unanimous.
Despite all claims to the contrary, there is a small community of sceptical researchers that remains extremely active. Hardly a week goes by without a new research paper that questions part or even some basics of climate change theory. ... Undoubtedly, sceptical scientists are a small minority. But as long as the possible impacts of global warming remain uncertain, the public is justified to keep an open mind.
Further,
as blogger Tim Lambert noted, in 2004,
University of California professor Naomi Oreskes studied "a sample of 928
papers in refereed scientific journals and found that not one disagreed with
the scientific consensus: that humans are responsible for most of the warming
in the last few decades." Her findings were published in the
December 2004 edition of Science magazine.
Subsequently, Peiser took exception to Oreskes findings and, in an unpublished letter to Science, claimed that 34 papers in the database Oreskes used "reject or doubt the view that human activities are the main drivers of the [sic] 'the observed warming over the last 50 years'." Lambert stated in response: "It was obvious that there was only
paper [sic] in his list that rejected the consensus and not only was that paper
not peer-reviewed it was from the AAPG (American Association of Petroleum
Geologists)." In his subsequent letter to Media Watch,
Peiser admitted that "some of the abstracts that I included in the 34
'reject or doubt' category are very ambiguous and should not have
been included."
From the Times article:
Although Mr. Gore is not a scientist, he does rely heavily on the authority of science in "An Inconvenient Truth," which is why scientists are sensitive to its details and claims.
Criticisms of Mr. Gore have come not only from conservative groups and prominent skeptics of catastrophic warming, but also from rank-and-file scientists like Dr. Easterbook, who told his peers that he had no political ax to grind. A few see natural variation as more central to global warming than heat-trapping gases. Many appear to occupy a middle ground in the climate debate, seeing human activity as a serious threat but challenging what they call the extremism of both skeptics and zealots.
Hollywood has a thing for Al Gore and his three-alarm film on global warming, "An Inconvenient Truth," which won an Academy Award for best documentary. So do many environmentalists, who praise him as a visionary, and many scientists, who laud him for raising public awareness of climate change.
But part of his scientific audience is uneasy. In talks, articles and blog entries that have appeared since his film and accompanying book came out last year, these scientists argue that some of Mr. Gore's central points are exaggerated and erroneous. They are alarmed, some say, at what they call his alarmism.
"I don't want to pick on Al Gore," Don J. Easterbrook, an emeritus professor of geology at Western Washington University, told hundreds of experts at the annual meeting of the Geological Society of America. "But there are a lot of inaccuracies in the statements we are seeing, and we have to temper that with real data."
Mr. Gore, in an e-mail exchange about the critics, said his work made "the most important and salient points" about climate change, if not "some nuances and distinctions" scientists might want. "The degree of scientific consensus on global warming has never been stronger," he said, adding, "I am trying to communicate the essence of it in the lay language that I understand."
Although Mr. Gore is not a scientist, he does rely heavily on the authority of science in "An Inconvenient Truth," which is why scientists are sensitive to its details and claims.
Criticisms of Mr. Gore have come not only from conservative groups and prominent skeptics of catastrophic warming, but also from rank-and-file scientists like Dr. Easterbook, who told his peers that he had no political ax to grind. A few see natural variation as more central to global warming than heat-trapping gases. Many appear to occupy a middle ground in the climate debate, seeing human activity as a serious threat but challenging what they call the extremism of both skeptics and zealots.
[...]
While reviewers tended to praise the book and movie, vocal skeptics of global warming protested almost immediately. Richard S. Lindzen, a climatologist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and a member of the National Academy of Sciences, who has long expressed skepticism about dire climate predictions, accused Mr. Gore in The Wall Street Journal of "shrill alarmism."
Some of Mr. Gore's centrist detractors point to a report last month by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, a United Nations body that studies global warming. The panel went further than ever before in saying that humans were the main cause of the globe's warming since 1950, part of Mr. Gore's message that few scientists dispute. But it also portrayed climate change as a slow-motion process.
It estimated that the world's seas in this century would rise a maximum of 23 inches - down from earlier estimates. Mr. Gore, citing no particular time frame, envisions rises of up to 20 feet and depicts parts of New York, Florida and other heavily populated areas as sinking beneath the waves, implying, at least visually, that inundation is imminent.
Bjorn Lomborg, a statistician and political scientist in Denmark long skeptical of catastrophic global warming, said in a syndicated article that the panel, unlike Mr. Gore, had refrained from scaremongering. "Climate change is a real and serious problem" that calls for careful analysis and sound policy, Dr. Lomborg said. "The cacophony of screaming," he added, "does not help."
So too, a report last June by the National Academies seemed to contradict Mr. Gore's portrayal of recent temperatures as the highest in the past millennium. Instead, the report said, current highs appeared unrivaled since only 1600, the tail end of a temperature rise known as the medieval warm period.
Roy Spencer, a climatologist at the University of Alabama, Huntsville, said on a blog that Mr. Gore's film did "indeed do a pretty good job of presenting the most dire scenarios." But the June report, he added, shows "that all we really know is that we are warmer now than we were during the last 400 years."
Other critics have zeroed in on Mr. Gore's claim that the energy industry ran a "disinformation campaign" that produced false discord on global warming. The truth, he said, was that virtually all unbiased scientists agreed that humans were the main culprits. But Benny J. Peiser, a social anthropologist in Britain who runs the Cambridge-Conference Network, or CCNet, an Internet newsletter on climate change and natural disasters, challenged the claim of scientific consensus with examples of pointed disagreement.
"Hardly a week goes by," Dr. Peiser said, "without a new research paper that questions part or even some basics of climate change theory," including some reports that offer alternatives to human activity for global warming.















Al Gore has shown us that these types of people are trying to introduce global warming as theory rather than fact. No peer-reviewed, scientific articles disagree with man-made global warming.
Right. If Broad had written an honest article, he would have revealed that his sources are only confirming Gore's assertion that these people are attempting to reframe the issue as a theoretical debate.
And what is wrong with them taking a liberal stance on the subject?
You're not making sense again. Denying scientific consensus in order to push a political agenda is not a "liberal stance." Neither is disseminating propaganda.
He deserves no answer. Just like he lied yesterday, he will lie today and tomorrow. Why bother to give it a thrill of someone replying to his 'truthiness' posts.
spoken like a true liberal...
please give us another link that proves the opposite of what you thought because you were to stupid to read it! LOL!
it's sort of like the old richard pryor joke. who you gonna believe, me or your lyin' eyes? the indisputable reality is that the effects of global warming are happening even faster than what was predicted even ten years ago. melting ice caps and glaciers, animals that live in temperate ranges on mountains or northern latitudes dying off because their habitats have warmed.
Like so many other times, a much repeated falsehood is easily put to rest. See A March 2006 paper in the Journal of Climate by K.E. Runnalls and T.R. Oke entitled “A Technique to Detect Microclimatic Inhomogeneities in Historical Records of Screen-Level Air Temperature”. It further demonstrates significant problems with the accurate quantification of multi-decadal land surface temperature trends.
Explain to me, since you have obviously read and understood this paper, how it contradicts the scientific consensus on anthropogenic warming.
valen,
Putting to rest myths by liberals is like fighting the hydra. Chop off one head and another shows up. To use another analogy, you are moving the goal line. I'd like see you agree first that there are peer reviewed papers that disagree with some of the global warming studies.
However, I know that I am probably whistling in the wind as so many time when proof is offered, it is not good enough. Suffice it to say I read some of the abstract.
You know you are creating a straw man argument. This study demonstrates significant problems with the accurate quantification of multi-decadal land surface temperature trends way measurements are taken. Go take a look at http://climatesci.colorado.edu/2006/07/28/298/ That is my source.
Please read it yourself and then report back to tell us where you see the flaws in this study.
put up or shut-up. You posted the link with the claim it proves something. So support your argument or go away and take your meds. Oh and BTW;
." Further to this point, they say that "intuition, experience, and review of classic microclimatic case studies suggests to us that the net impact of the most common changes (compaction due to trampling, increased paving, tree growth, removal or soiling of snow cover, construction of buildings and introduction of irrigation) lead to alteration of nocturnal controls on the surface heat balance (thermal admittance, sky view factor and roughness and shelter) in ways that reduce [our italics] nocturnal cooling and consequently increase [our italics] the minimum temperature."
see the word increase? DOH, bet you wish you had READ it now don't ya! LOL!
Am,
Your ignorance is only exceeded by your immature posting.
What you failed to grasp is that the location of the measuring stations are influence by many factors in the microclimate which can cause them to inflate the temperature readings. In simple terms that means that these reading are biased when extrapolated on a macro scale can incorrectly bias the results toward warmer temps.
Okay. I've had to correct another liberal. No doubt two more will spring up yapping about something else. Wish I had the time but I'm going to get on a jet plane tomorrow, and fly to a place that revels in warmth. Take care everyone.
Please don't "correct" the pilot of that jet plane, AA.We want you back in one delusional piece.
This is a study that finds fault with some of the methodology used to measure temperature. I note that it says nothing about measuring temperature over water, which is statstically much more significant (water temp is much less variable, and as water covers more of the Earth's surface area).
I don't see where it contradicts the scientific consensus on anthropogenic warming. Studies like this refine the science and make it better and more accurate.
he was told what it means by someone else, radio or TV hate-flak no doubt, or from freeper-land maybe and is just cut and pasting without reading it. So aruging facts with him is useless since he refuses to have any.
Have you seen the movie "The Great Global Warming Swindle"?
You will find that the warming precedes the increase in C02.
Therefore C02 is not the cause, but increases after the warming, which eliminates your entire thesis.
Yeah, well I saw a movie where some guy used a DeLorean to travel back in time.
great movie!
A look at any graph charting co2 increases and temperature change immediately disproves your statement that rising temperatures precede co2 increases. Show us one chart that shows otherwise.
Warming and cooling trends have occurred numerous times. Typical warming times occur over about 5000 years. As temperatures begin to rise for whatever reason (solar cycles etc.) CO2 is released from the ocean. The increased CO2 traps heat causing further warming. In the past it is likely that CO2 has acted as an amplifier in global warming episodes rather than an initiator of warming. At present CO2 and other GHGs appear to be acting as initiators of warming. That CO2 is less soluble in warmer water is troubling as it will lead to more CO2 being released as temperatures rise.
A relatively full debunk of this propaganda piece can be found at [link to inthegreen.typepad.com]
You don't see how it contradicts it? Well, you could look up "straw-man" fallocy, which AnotherAmerican so conveniently brought up. Obviously one paper talking about a flaw in one method of measuring temperature changes discounts global warming. It's like if I say that I can measure global warming by spinning around on my chair three times. If you say that I can't measure it that way, you're obviously saying that global warming doesn't exist, not just that my method of measuring it is wrong. Perfect example of a straw man. If only AnotherAmerican would have looked up the term before deciding to use one.
"See A March 2006 paper" --AA
There very well may be some peer-reviewed studies challenging anthropogenic Global Warming more recently. However, the criteria for Naomi Oreskes' original research were:
"...refereed scientific journals between 1993 and 2003, and listed in the ISI database with the keywords "['global' -- later added in a clarification] climate change"
It may be false for people to presume no peer-reviewed papers exist at all, but they apparently didn't exist in the noted time-frame.
a reasonable point there, I would be interested in seeing any submitted for review once that process is complete. but one would think if in the last 4 years one or more had been submitted and passed review it would have been heard of by now, wouldn't one?
Here come the deniers! 1975 Newsweek "Ice Age" reference in 3... 2...
Hahaha.. Nice to see MMFA still hasn't lost it's touch.
Nowhere that I found in casually looking through some of the links regarding Richard Lindzen does MMFA prove that Lindzen has been misleading, debunked or discredited.
I can extrapolate from this that the rest of MMFA's article must also be as full as holes as the Ozone layer... I am using a very scientific method similar to the one that counts tree ring widths of one particular fir tree in the Rockies to extrapolate the whole man-made global warming myth.
"Hahaha.. Nice to see MMFA still hasn't lost it's touch."
Ok, and it is nice to see you have not lost your touch with smearing MMFA and smearing Former VP Gore.
"smearing Former VP Gore"
Doris,
Please point out to me where I said anything here about Gore?
How can you not simply read what I wrote? Where on God's green earth did you hallucinate that I smeared Gore?
So you are admitting all your posts are off-topic and against the TOS here at MMFA? Ok, then i guess you will be going now...
most of the time you all just be-little the guy they mention. How are YOU any different then?
When one guy says there is no scientific consensus, but 2500+ scientific expert reviewers, 850+ Contributing authors and 450+ lead authors say there IS a consensus, the one guy has pretty well debunked himself, wouldn't you say?
Valen,
Once again you are full of misinformation.
What about the 17,100 initial signers of the Petition Project? see: http://www.oism.org/pproject/s33p357.htm
Signers of this petition so far include 2,660 physicists, geophysicists, climatologists, meteorologists, oceanographers, and environmental scientists (select this link for a listing of these individuals) who are especially well qualified to evaluate the effects of carbon dioxide on the Earth's atmosphere and climate.
Signers of this petition also include 5,017 scientists whose fields of specialization in chemistry, biochemistry, biology, and other life sciences (select this link for a listing of these individuals) make them especially well qualified to evaluate the effects of carbon dioxide upon the Earth's plant and animal life.
Nearly all of the initial 17,100 scientist signers have technical training suitable for the evaluation of the relevant research data, and many are trained in related fields. In addition to these 17,100, approximately 2,400 individuals have signed the petition who are trained in fields other than science or whose field of specialization was not specified on their returned petition.
Here is the petition. Feel free to go to the web link and sign it.
Global Warming Petition
We urge the United States government to reject the global warming agreement that was written in Kyoto, Japan in December, 1997, and any other similar proposals. The proposed limits on greenhouse gases would harm the environment, hinder the advance of science and technology, and damage the health and welfare of mankind.There is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gasses is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth's atmosphere and disruption of the Earth's climate. Moreover, there is substantial scientific evidence that increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide produce many beneficial effects upon the natural plant and animal environments of the Earth.
AA, once again, you are the pot calling the kettle black. This is not a barroom argument. People can actually check up on your silliness.
Thank you for the link. It is amazing the lengths to which the GW deniers will go to "prove" they are right and science is wrong. I might be wrong, but aren't these the same cretins who doubt the veracity of evolution and any thing that contradicts the Bible? I detect a God angle here. Perhaps there is something blasphemous about asserting that humankind is capable of destruction on a global scale, which, from a biblical point of view, is God's province alone.
Randy
Lessee here...
If a scientist makes note of a "hole" in evolutionary theory, he discredits himself by so doing?
Please clarify.
Can you explain what you mean, and why you think it is relevant to the discussion at hand?
Just defending science, relative to Fantagor's post.
Valen,
Have some more kool-aid my friend. Two can play that game. Your source is the Sierra Club, not a very neutral player wouldn't you agree?
Like many of MMFA's threads, they say they have debunked something when they have not.
There is no proof that this site tried to mislead anyone. The Past President of NSA did write the letter. There is no mention anywhere on the abstract of the NAS.
It is a common ploy used by the envoromental whackos to disparage those countering their 'concensus'. You've unsuccessfully tried to apply it here.
Face it, there are many who disagree with many of the studies both pro and con regarding man's effect on global warming. That is what science is all about. The key is not to just blindly accept one side or another, but constantly experiment, synthesize and eventually come to the truth. As of now the left is trying to stifle the debate with this hogwash about concensus.
Except that there is a tiny minority that challenge man's affect on the warming climate. The consensus is in. It's not 50/50.
BUZZ
you lose again. You really need to learn to read one of these days. the info came from HERE;
http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warming/science/skeptic-organizations.html
The Sierra Club simply re-posted it. Do try to learn to pay attention someday.
"AnotherAmerican":
The OISM is a discredited organization, and the so called petition is simply without merit:
"
In addition to the bulk mailing, OISM's website enables people to add their names to the petition over the Internet, and by June 2000 it claimed to have recruited more than 19,000 scientists. The institute is so lax about screening names, however, that virtually anyone can sign, including for example Al Caruba, a pesticide-industry PR man and conservative ideologue who runs his own website called the "National Anxiety Center." Caruba has no scientific credentials whatsoever, but in addition to signing the Oregon Petition he has editorialized on his own website against the science of global warming, calling it the "biggest hoax of the decade," a "genocidal" campaign by environmentalists who believe that "humanity must be destroyed to 'Save the Earth.' . . . There is no global warming, but there is a global political agenda, comparable to the failed Soviet Union experiment with Communism, being orchestrated by the United Nations, supported by its many Green NGOs, to impose international treaties of every description that would turn the institution into a global government, superceding the sovereignty of every nation in the world."
When questioned in 1998, OISM's Arthur Robinson admitted that only 2,100 signers of the Oregon Petition had identified themselves as physicists, geophysicists, climatologists, or meteorologists, "and of those the greatest number are physicists." This grouping of fields concealed the fact that only a few dozen, at most, of the signatories were drawn from the core disciplines of climate science - such as meteorology, oceanography, and glaciology - and almost none were climate specialists. The names of the signers are available on the OISM's website, but without listing any institutional affiliations or even city of residence, making it very difficult to determine their credentials or even whether they exist at all. When the Oregon Petition first circulated, in fact, environmental activists successfully added the names of several fictional characters and celebrities to the list, including John Grisham, Michael J. Fox, Drs. Frank Burns, B. J. Honeycutt, and Benjamin Pierce (from the TV show M*A*S*H), an individual by the name of "Dr. Red Wine," and Geraldine Halliwell, formerly known as pop singer Ginger Spice of the Spice Girls. Halliwell's field of scientific specialization was listed as "biology." Even in 2003, the list was loaded with misspellings, duplications, name and title fragments, and names of non-persons, such as company names. "
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Oregon_Institute_of_Science_and_Medicine
While you may rant against your perceived liberal misinformers, using an obviously fallacious and discredited source makes you twice as bad, and worse, guilty of hypocrisy as well.
Obviously the petition is there for people to sign.
Equally obvious is the repeated use of left wing websites trying to discredit and disparage this site.
The point that seems to be overlooked is the fact that many, many scientists, as evidenced by your reference do not believe man-made global warming through carbon emissions has been proven.
Oh, "many, many" scientists? Why didn't you say there were "many, many" scientists? That changes everything.
Acording to you, National Academy of Science (NAS) is left wing organization too.
This is what NAS said:
"The mailing is clearly designed to be deceptive by giving people the impression that the article, which is full of half-truths, is a reprint and has passed peer review," complained Raymond Pierrehumbert, a meteorlogist at the University of Chicago. NAS foreign secretary F. Sherwood Rowland, an atmospheric chemist, said researchers "are wondering if someone is trying to hoodwink them." NAS council member Ralph J. Cicerone, dean of the School of Physical Sciences at the University of California at Irvine, was particularly offended that Seitz described himself in the cover letter as a "past president" of the NAS. Although Seitz had indeed held that title in the 1960s, Cicerone hoped that scientists who received the petition mailing would not be misled into believing that he "still has a role in governing the organization."
The NAS issued an unusually blunt formal response to the petition drive. "The NAS Council would like to make it clear that this petition has nothing to do with the National Academy of Sciences and that the manuscript was not published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences or in any other peer-reviewed journal," it stated in a news release. "The petition does not reflect the conclusions of expert reports of the Academy." In fact, it pointed out, its own prior published study had shown that "even given the considerable uncertainties in our knowledge of the relevant phenomena, greenhouse warming poses a potential threat sufficient to merit prompt responses. Investment in mitigation measures acts as insurance protection against the great uncertainties and the possibility of dramatic surprises."
This is a well-known hoax:
"
In the spring of 1998, mailboxes of US scientists flooded with packet from the "Global Warming Petition Project," including a reprint of a Wall Street Journal op-ed "Science has spoken: Global Warming Is a Myth," a copy of a faux scientific article claiming that "increased levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide have no deleterious effects upon global climate," a short letter signed by past-president National Academy of Sciences (NAS), Frederick Seitz, and a short petition calling for the rejection of the Kyoto Protocol on the grounds that a reduction in carbon dioxide "would harm the environment, hinder the advance of science and technology, and damage the health and welfare of mankind."The sponsor, little-known Oregon Institute of Science and Medicine, tried to beguile unsuspecting scientists into believing that this packet had originated from the National Academy of the Sciences, both by referencing Seitz's past involvement with the NAS and with an article formatted to look as if it was a published article in the Academy's Proceedings, which it was not.The NAS quickly distanced itself from the petition project, issuing a statement saying, "the petition does not reflect the conclusions of expert reports of the Academy."The petition project was a deliberate attempt to mislead scientists and to rally them in an attempt to undermine support for the Kyoto Protocol. The petition was not based on a review of the science of global climate change, nor were its signers experts in the field of climate science. In fact, the only criterion for signing the petition was a bachelor's degree in science. The petition resurfaced in early 2001 in a renewed attempt to undermine international climate treaty negotiations.
Sorry, that dog won't hunt!
What I find odd, it the threats and lack of funding these people, (Sceptiks) are getting. Makes you wonder if this is a conspiracy. Afterall, aren't these scientists simply taking a Liberal Stance on it?
Big Oil funds most of the "Skeptical" scientists. And we all know that they are as un-biased as is humanly possible.
And huge Liberal funds go to the scientists that are pushing it, what is your point?
My points are, who has the deepest pockets?
Who has the most to gain or lose?
Both parties do, and you are well aware of it. I see a ajenda. SOme truth yes, but not to the extent the Ajenda is pushing for.
I am curious.
What would the environmentalist's agenda be? Maybe to save the earth for future generations
And what personal gain could they possibly acheive?
Big Oil and their fellow corporate organizations are the ones with agendas and lots to gain by propping up these "skeptics"
Gain..... like the Company Gore investes into, that he is a board member on? The company that stands to make MILLIONS AND MILLIONS from Carbon Offset?
Oh, I see no ajends there.
So Gore's carbon offsets company, which is in the infant stages, has the monetary muscle to bribe 2,500 scientists, but Big Oil and its HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS IN PROFITS chooses to sit at the sidelines and toss a few biscuits to a handful of willing shills?
Ladies and gentleman, I present the Missing Link.
Randy
Not at all. Oil companies have probably bought many scientists. You saying none on the "Yes" side have been bought with money, or politicaly?
The "yes" people have been bought by WHOM??? Please give me a list of companies which stand to profit from GW, besides Gore's carbon credit company. The dissenters have been PROVEN to be taking money from fossil fuel companies, so if the "yes" people are in someone's pocket, why is it so difficult to link them to corporate interests or think tanks, if they do indeed exist?
You seem motivated. Do the research for yourself and report to the rest of us "round earthers."
Randy
NGOfficer, that's usually my question as well. While I ain't no Bbig City Lawyer *(thumbs in suspenders, hunka tobacco in cheek)*, I have seen enough "Perry Mason" and "Law and Order" in my lifetime to learn a few things.
Whenever there are two opposing sides to an issue or argument, my first question is motive.The conservative media has a load of issues (Environmentalism, War, Gay Agenda, Secular Humanist Conspiracy, etc.) on which their opponents have taken the side least likely to benefit themselves as far as monetary or political gain.
When this discrepancy is brought up, the lapse in logic is usually attributed to some combination of Big Gov't., Communism, Liberal Funding or other goals that seem like much more difficult means of gaining wealth or power than the road-tested and proven (Corporations, Churches, Military).
Apparently that satisfies most of the conservative audience;Groups of people go to great lengths to promote their cause just to be difficult.
Or as evilib just pointed out, Gore spends his time and money to help his stocks. I'd like to see the net effect.
What does the Left and the countless Sierra Club clone groups have to gain? Surely you jest.
Do some math and calculate the amount of money (donated by YOU, voluntarily, and involuntarily through taxes) that it takes to support the "environmental" movement" (always use quotes) and its employees and hangers-on.
As Utopianism became an obvious failure in the late part of the 20th century, its adherents increasingly took refuge in the Green causes, attractive for their idealism and anti-corporate fervor. Environmentalists' science is commonly whored to support political agenda, and it takes a mountain of money to support these endeavors.
Do not attempt to call "environmentalism" PURE because it is "non-profit". You find it easy to rant about the rich 501c3 churches; pay attention to the bank accounts of the 501c3 Greens.
How many people has the Sierra Club or any other environmental group made into millionaires?
Quite a number, beginning with Carl Pope.
Got any links to let us all in on what you are talking about?
There is no comparison. Big Oil bought a few scientists and published some random papers with no peer review.
On the other hand, literally hundreds of scientific teams -- most of which did not have big foundation grants -- published peer-reviewed papers that support the scientific consensus.
You're comparing apples and Oldsmobiles.
There is no comparison. Big Oil bought a few scientists and published some random papers with no peer review.
Can you show me the links to these buyouts? If not, shut up.
Yeah, in my sleep, smart-ass.
Now, can you show me a single peer-reviewed study that challenges the scientific consensus. If not, shut up.
And somehow you believe that all the deniers took the money? LOLOLOLOLOLOL......
Man this is a religion worse than christianity.
"Laughing out loud out loud out loud...?"
How are you coming with those references?
I know this is a silly question, but got proof? or just pulling it from your behind again?
What huge liberal funds are you talking about?
Just because a study is funded does not mean it will find the results the funders want (whether are with the energy industry or sierra club) or that it will pass the peer review process and be published in a reputable journal.
So far the vast majority of the studies that have passed peer review and been published in the past 20 years have supported the hypotheses that global warming is currently happening and that it is anthropogenicaly caused. The data and analysis of these studies is readily available to anyone with access to a good research library or with enough money to by the appropriate subscriptions. This is an open process not amenable to conspiracies.
But worrier, why the death threats?
I haven't heard about death threats. Each day, we become more divided. Each day the extremes on both sides get crazier. Who knows where we're headed?
All I do know is that those whose job it is to know these things are concerned. I'm not a scientist. I don't see how a scientist who is worried will be able to gain from his beliefs, whereas a scientist beholding to big business might be thought to be pushing an agenda so that his employer will benefit from his opinion.
"Liberal Stance" joke.. attempt #2, swing and a miss.
It is not a joke. They are taking aliberal stance, got a problem with that?
Sorry, I thought you were trying to make a joke.
What do you mean by "a liberal stance"?
I'm pretty sure a liberal stance is when you're holding a white flag of surrender in your left hand while you wave Mao's little red book around in your right hand. I'm pretty sure you also need to be stomming on an American flag with both feet.
King, can you see me through my computer screen? That's eerie.
LOLOLOL.... I do not mean it that way.
He is not conforming to the majorities opinion. Did the hippes in the 60's take a liberal stance against vietnam?
The entire nation turned against the War in Vietnam not just "the hippies".
A lot of the guys who fought the war came out against it.
So, you dont get my point?
Wouldn't that be like funding scientist to prove smoking isn't bad for you?
...or that excessive consumption of fast food has no adverse effects?
...or that the Earth is only a few thousand years old?
No it would not. The world, and how IT decides to change, is above any of us.
EL
Just out of curiosity do you think that there are environmental problems and if so what are they?
There are plenty. I am not for smog, if you are wondering. I have no issue spending money to clean the air, realisticly. I am also well aware of the impact on streams and rivers due to mans lazyness. I am a nature buff, and love camping. Go up to a 8-10 times a year.I have seen the affects at the local lakes over the last many years. I have seen the wildlife vanish in the hills surrounding. Hawks, snakes, ect. I am no fool. I just wont play into anyones game right away.
Question - How did we figure out that problems like smog, acid rain and chemical/run off in our water was was bad for the environment?
ahhh, by drinking it?
No special man .... Let me ask again, but slower this time...
How did the people in the white coats with the beakers figure out that things like acid rain and smog are not very nice for people or mother nature?
Let me guess. You want Evil to say that we discovered these things through scientific endeavor, right? And we did.
Quite awhile ago. Before science was so easily prostituted, although it was beginning then also. I'm amazed that there's any vegetation remaining in the Upper Midwest/Northeast/Eastern Canada.
I wonder what the earth is deciding right now? If only there was a field, a discipline in which scientists could study what the earth thinks. If we only had geopsychiatrists, then they could debunk the climatologists by blaming wariming on geopsychosomatic tendencies.
Until then, I guess we'll have to rely on that gray area called "physics". Bummer.
Earth is The Decider !
So you deny mother nature?
Not as a poetic ,anthropomorphic concept. I don't actually believe it's that woman on the old margarine commercials.
If you're too young, see "it's not nice to fool Mother Nature"
You mean she's not real?
I believed those commercials.
Global warming is a serious problem. Not only is our pollution melting our polar ice caps but we are also destroying the enviroments of most other planets in our solar system by melting theirs. I for one wish to speak up for the Martians, Jupitarians and Staurnites (to name a few) and plead with the US to join the kyoto accords, ban SUV usage, ERADICATE (kill) all livestock (which contributes more than us to CO2)...oh and SOMEHOW convince China and India, etc to do the same. We must save our fellow milky wayans (I wonder if their related to Damon & Kenan?) before my suv (which I leave running on purpose....I hate Uranus) detroys every living being in the universe. Please let's end this scourge of the galaxy known as man caused global warming today!
Remember that thing called a "globe" you had in your classroom, weinerocks? there's a hint as to what is completely lacking in your satire; remember, good humor has a solid basis in reality.
Reality such as the fact that other planets' ice caps are melting? I guess maybe Ford has secretly tapped into the lucritive Martian SUV market. Next thing you know they'll be outsourcing jobs to Venus!
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.htm
I guess, National Geographic isn't a viable source of information. They must be owned by big oil. Yes, global warming IS happening (0.7 degrees/century) but I believe it's happened before (ice age, anyone...Bueller?), and I doubt the advanced industialization of the cave man( he gave us the wheel...not the combution engine) caused the warming of that period.
Ignoring for the moment that you've provided a dead link, how exactly does warming on Mars disprove warming on Earth?
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/02/070228-mars-warming.html
Try it now....
Now listen carefully because this really shouldn't be hard to understand. If we are warming.....and MARS is warming....MAYBE it's because of the one constant...the SUN (or other radiation/heat generating bodies in space) could be warming (stay with me) BOTH planets! Thus dissproving the theory of man-caused global warming
Tim, that's called confusing correlation with causation. You can do that with anything, like saying increased sales of ice cream causes the temperature to rise.
There is real science going on to determine the amount of climate forcing caused by changes in solar irradiance. The current consensus view is that the effect is judged to be far, far below that of greenhouse gas emissions.
Now, new studies may change our understanding of the effect of solar irradiance, but unless and until those studies emerge, the consensus remains.
I'll gladly concurr with the concensus being that man has caused global warming, as long as others on this site are willing to admit that there is some evidence and the possibilty that the concensus is wrong. There have been skeptics since this started and there have started to be defectors to the man-caused theory including one of the first proponents of the man-caused theory
http://epw.senate.gov/pressitem.cfm?party=rep&id=264777
I'll admit the possibility, sure. I think it is a statistically insignificant possibility, but science isn't about absolute certainty. It's about hypothesis, rigor, repeatability... dull and boring things that can get us closer to an understanding of something as complex and mind-boggling as the climate of a planet.
Well, thank you for consenting that fact. Some of the "true believers" on this site make die hard religous types look like Hillary Clinton's stance on...well everything. The whole time I've been arguing for the POSSIBILITY that we're not causing it.
Science is always about our best approximation and probability. There's a tiny probability that the star Alpha Centari is made of green cheese. It's very unlikely, but science can never rule it out. Similarly it's very highly unlikely that man isn't making the Earth warmer. The cons hopes rest on that very tiny, tiny chance. Not a good bet, I'd have to say.
Not necessary to be a con, to be skeptical of AGW dogma.
And that place is not green cheese. A respected bunch of mystics, paid by a 501c3 environmentalist church, are 75-90% sure it's made of jack cheese, and THEIR work is peer-reviewed by mystics from other 501c3 groups, who are 75-90% sure that the first group is prolly right, and since the support comes from groups who have taken an oath to eschew profit motive, who can argue w/consensus like that?
That's fine, but keep it in perspective. You're hurtling off a cliff, and somebody says, "well, there's a one in a hundred chance that we are actually flying to Las Vegas."
The question is whether you want to take the longshot when your ass is on the line.
But what I'm keeping into perspective is the adverse effects that overreacting to a theory might have on our economy. I'm all for alternative energy but we need to ease into it or we risk destroying our economy and then what future do we have? The theories (no matter how sure they are still theories) of doom are not as concrete as the historical facts that give actual evidence that if we put a screching halt to our indutsry we'll crash economically.
The science surrounding global warming is much, much more solid than the assertions that doing something about it will cause economic ruin. There are downside economic risks to doing nothing as well.
I think this is where we as a society should be putting our energy: weighing the relative risks of doing nothing and taking action. Instead we're dicking around in these faux debates...
Savage, "that if we put a screching halt to our indutsry" , where did that come from? I've not seen any proposals or treatys that require halting industry. All we need to do is start moving away from emitting greenhouse gases. Drive less, drive a vehicle with better gas mileage. Keep the tires at the proper pressure. Undoubtedly, there will be some economic shifts, most of the time from centralized production to decentralized production, but the only severe hardships will be to trust funders whose dividend checks from big energy businesses will decrease a little, because they were to lazy to reinvest in emerging technologies.
that's always the right wing excuse. it will cost too much. same bull the auto companies said when carter forced higher mileage standards on them. their predictions of doom proved false. and savage simply makes stuff up. he said on march 4 that it was going to freeze in houston and that is past the normal last freezing day. a lie, they have freezing days into april.
If you were bright enough to go to the next page, you would have seen;
Planets' Wobbles
The conventional theory is that climate changes on Mars can be explained primarily by small alterations in the planet's orbit and tilt, not by changes in the sun.
"Wobbles in the orbit of Mars are the main cause of its climate change in the current era," Oxford's Wilson explained. (Related: "Don't Blame Sun for Global Warming, Study Says" [September 13, 2006].)
All planets experience a few wobbles as they make their journey around the sun. Earth's wobbles are known as Milankovitch cycles and occur on time scales of between 20,000 and 100,000 years.
Oh Sure,AmericanMutt, now planets revolve around the sun.Being a conservative scientician, I have observed the sun dropping directly in to the sea every night.It also gets colder at this point, disproving global warming every 24 hours. END OF STORY!
"and yet, it MOVES!"
"Earth's wobbles are known as Milankovitch cycles and occur on time scales of between 20,000 and 100,000 years."
And in fact... we should be changing our North Star from Polaris to Vega in a few more millennia... 10 or so.
Now that will be a fun time!
I believe what you've described is precession, like a top's axis moving slowly as it spins on the floor. I'm not sure if that's the same thing as "wobbles".
QUOTED FROM YOUR LINK:
Perhaps the biggest stumbling block in Abdussamatov's theory is his dismissal of the greenhouse effect, in which atmospheric gases such as carbon dioxide help keep heat trapped near the planet's surface.
He claims that carbon dioxide has only a small influence on Earth's climate and virtually no influence on Mars.
But "without the greenhouse effect there would be very little, if any, life on Earth, since our planet would pretty much be a big ball of ice," said Evan, of the University of Wisconsin.
Your amazing proof that GW isn't real is the farfetched musings of an untested, unproven scientific hypothesis that, out of the gate, lacks credulity, since, as you can plainly read, the author of said hypothesis has unilaterally dismissed the effect of greenhouses gases.
Impressive, in its unimpressiveness.
Randy
Holy crap....you guys are right! I didn't see that! Oh wait, yes I did. That is why I've never said we DEFINITELY weren't causing warming i just said it was a possibility.
Yep, that's what you've been saying all along:
Weiner: (crap about polar ice caps on mars receding)Thus dissproving the theory of man-caused global warming
Errrr...uhhhh.....maybe you haven't been.
ONE person's untested hypothetical does not, cannot overshadow literally hundreds of peer-reviewed studies. Please stop trying to manufacture a climate of debate. Face facts: there is no legitimate GW vs. No GW debate in the scientific community, nor is the cause (humans) being debated. 928 papers over 10 years: ZERO refutations of GW or its cause.
Randy
SR... Stick with what your good at..... I'm not really sure what that is yet, but we know it isn't humor.
Well, that'ts an relevant rebuttal, unfortunately you've failed to address the issue. BTW, I don't need you to validate my humor (I get paid for it)
WOW, I suck at typing
What do birthday clowns make these days?
Radio producer, actually, and on air personality.
Clowns are making it with radio producers? Yuck.
Impressive. My high school didn't even have a radio station.
or on-air clowns.
I didn't address your point because it didn't make any sense when you were attempting to address it with "humor"...
That could be one explanation for global warming and I think it would be interesting to explore. No one here is against other logical explanations for GW when they're backed up with facts. I was under the impression that your in the "GW doesn't exist" crowd? Are you now saying that it does?
You do realize that it will take years of study to prove or disprove your mars theory. Should we just sit back, do nothing and enjoy the heat wave while we try and figure it out?
I though conservatives were against government assistance programs? If your getting paid for your "humor" then you must be getting some type of "government handout" to supplement your income. Your just not that funny, unless of course you were refering to the accidental self deprecating humor when you post.
First of all, I've NEVER said we weren't warming, just that we're doing so extremely slowly, have done it before and might not be causing it. I understand that libs have no humor when it's targeting their quasi-religous belief that man is causing global warming but I digress. My job is multi-faceted in that I provide humerous ideas/ pre-produced bits that get played in air, and I provide banter with the hosts of many different shows. I apologize if some people on this site can't grasp humor that doesn't place cons saqurely as the butt of every joke but maybe I'll start doing more of that so you guys can get it too.
Having "Savagerocks" as your nom de plume is a pretty good start.
So let me make sure I understand you, if someone doesn't like/get your "humor" then it must be their fault?. That doesn't sound like the CON mantra of personal responsibility that I know and love!
If your actions or refusal to change are contributing to the destruction of the environment that I'm forced to share with you then I think it's well within my rights to bitch at you about it. If you think that makes me a fanatic so be it... Why don't you have me by your place sometime? You can just sit their with a smile on your face while I take a crap on your living room floor.
IMO people continue to deny all of the facts pointing to GW because if they acknowledge reality they will be forced to change something in their lives or acknowledge that they might be wrong. We all know how unwilling people are when it come to "change" or admit to a mistake. This applies even more so to Conservatives as by the very definition of the movement people that identify with that ideology are resistant to change and only do so when they must (or money is involved)
There is a noticeable lack of humor amongst some on this site--a lack of ability to depart from a hand-wringing, slashing attack on any view that is the slightest bit removed from Hard Left. I said SOME.
For my money, excellent humor is exhibited by HBL, Val, SR, and others. Ya crack me up, and that's why I have to keep coming back here. Have learned from allaya, anyway, even if some are toooo serious.
Disagree, MHK, I think it's pretty funny, just rarely when it's trying to be funny.
Exactly how does one Ravage a Sock? Keep you away from my kids, I will, pervert.
Yes I did clarify
"Your just not that funny, unless of course you were refering to the accidental self deprecating humor when you post."
Martian climate is far more variable than that of earth and is greatly effected by the number and size of dust storms. My understanding is that global average temperatures on Mars are actually lower now than they were in the 70s.
I wonder if these are the same scientists who are promoting the ID fantasy?
Those damned Freudians are still at it with their ID and EGO crap.
"The global-warming doomsayers, says Evans, are anti-development. Moreover, they stem from an environmentalism that has taken the place of Christianity, particularly in Europe. "To put it in its bluntest terms, when you don't believe in God you don't believe in nothing. You believe in whatever is the fashion of the day, and environmentalism has scooped the pool."
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/11/26/1101219743320.html
Evil (You mind if I call you Evil?):
What evidence would you accept that would covince you that global warming occurs, that mankind's actions are a significant part of it, and that it's a present danger?
How big a study? Reviewed by whom? What organization's judgment would you acknowledge?
Don't just say 'More than exists now.' That's obvious. Give us a real criterion. Name a name that you would respect.
Jesus.
Randy
Any of the below, no order.
When I see it in Nature, for one.
When World Leaders stand together to make the change.
When a money trail does not lead to one of our former congress members. I dont care who it is. I OD NOT TRUST DEMS and CONS alike.
Here are a few from Nature. There are quite a few more particularly if you also accept the journal Science as equally reputable (it is).
Acceleration of global warming due to carbon-cycle feedbacks in a coupled climate model. PM Cox, RA Betts, CD Jones, SA Spall, IJ … - Nature, 2000 A globally coherent fingerprint of climate change impacts across natural systems C Parmesan, G Yohe - Nature, 2003
Fingerprints of Global Warming on Wild Animals and Plants TL Root et al Nature, 2003
As far as I can tell none of them received money from politicians or environmental groups.
In talking with conservatives, I have found the propaganda firestorm brewing in the punditry of right-wing televised "news" is propagating the idea that Global Warming is a liberal "power-grab". First, I am having difficulty seeing the power to be grabbed, and secondly, it amazes me the staunch denials that come with this mentality. The conservative mind had absolutlely no problem living under the Orwellian propaganda machine of the "Cold War", and never once questioned the motivations of said "war" as to being a "power-grab", when it was so obviously a tyrranical oppression of the masses. But now, when faced with the dire spectre of an enemy that is not combatable with missles and soldiers, they have hidden their heads in the sand and weakly refute solid scientific study with distraction and lies. To get the right-wing on board with the struggle to remedy the ongoing problem of global warming and greenhouse gasses, it is probably going to mean putting a human ( probably Muslim ) face on the cause of this impending disaster, seeing as all the conservative mind can understand is Hate and Bigotry. "Lord" knows that global warming couldn't be caused by the actions of the White man, who has always had a problem with admission of fault and action to remedies.
OK Farakhan--
What time does the spaceship take off?
- All I do know is that those whose job it is to know these things are concerned...whereas a scientist beholding to big business might be thought to be pushing an agenda - worrierking
- What would the environmentalist's agenda be?...And what personal gain could they possibly acheive? - ngofficer
So, scientists funded by private industry are unreliable because they must have an agenda to oppose global warming...while the opposing forces are pure as the driven snow.
ngofficer asks "what personal gain could they possibly achieve?" Well, ole worrier answered it for you....it's called employment...it's called "their job".
No man made global warming alarm...means funding dries up for the global warming alarmists...and that makes them unemployed.
Now that's a pretty big agenda.
Wesley, why wouldn't they just go work for the oil company as "scientists"? That's ready cash, unlike those grants.
You'd think they could come up with at least one study.
According to that logic, all scientists, in a panic about funding, just make stuff up or risk relegation to the nearest breadline. Did the genesis of GW go something like this?"Damn, if I don't come up with a theory of SOMETHING by" (looks at watch) "Je-sus! I'm sunk! Think, damn it, think!" (glances up at poster of polar ice fields) "That's it! I'll claim the polar caps are melting because of, um, oh..." (sees bubbles percolating to the surface in his Coke) "carbon dioxide emissions which, oh" (ponders the terrarium for a moment) "increase the greenhouse effect. Woohoo!" (jumps for joy) "Thars money in them thar fraudulent theories!"
Randy
You forgot about the time when the first guy got all 7400 of his closest weathermen buds together in his basement, and convinced them they'd all be unemployed if they didn't go along with his scheme. Yeah, the initial outlay in beer and girls was steep, but in the long run, it'll turn out to be a pretty good investment. The only thing in their way is that bunch of gay tea-totallers who are trying to debunk their - ahem - "research".
Oh, and National Geographic, of course.
- It's about hypothesis, rigor, repeatability - valentian
- Your amazing proof that GW isn't real is the farfetched musings of an untested, unproven scientific hypothesis - fantagor
Hypothesis means a tentative theory about the natural world; a concept that is not yet verified but that if true would explain certain facts or phenomena...re: A scientific hypothesis that survives experimental testing becomes a scientific theory.
Please point out evidence that the global warming alarmists have tested and proven their hyphthesis...instead of relying on unproven computer models and moving goalposts by groups like the IPCC.
You show very obviously that you don't know how science works. Not surprising actually.
Ok..why don't you educate me...you can start with evidence that the global warming community has tested and proven repeatablity on their findings.
Repeatability of what? Do you think they can just grab another Earth-like planet and rape it as a control?
Repeatability of their dire predictions...
What! New york's not under water yet? But Al gore said it would happen! I'm confused
You must be, because he said no such thing. Voices in your head could be a symptom of a serious issue. So, you may have schizophrenia layered on top of your narcissistic personality disorder.
He did say it would be a terrible year for hurricanes, was it?
Actually, it was.
(1) Given that it was an El Nino year, the number of named storms in the Atlantic (10) was significantly higher than average. (It is a well known fact that even a mild El Nino substantially depresses the formation of tropical Atlantic cyclones.)
(2) Activity in all of the Pacific basins was also unusually high.
Now, as everyone knows, a single season tells us nothing about global climate change. Still, the peculiarities of these seasons are well within predicted patterns of global warming.
GLH.
correct on both points. an el nino is proven to suppress hurricane formation, but there were still storms, but they didn't hit the u.s. so i guess.....those storms didn't actually exist in wingnut land. and china, australia, and the philippines saw many many strong storms. but rush forgot to mention that.
And he announced to Conan the other night that the ozone hole is being mitigated to "no prob" status due to international cooperation.
The same "international cooperation" that'll solve AGW--you know, where WE hitch ourselves to a treaty that sends jobs to other countries who have no intention of honoring said treaty.
Actually, the best outsourcer, by far, is G.W. Bush. The move of Halliburton to Dubai is just another incident in the flight of jobs overseas, which has been encouraged by this adminstration. On the other hand, a sane reaction to the problem of global warming would lead to a huge number of jobs in many industries. We'd have to rebuild the physical infrastructure, here. Solar collectors, insulation, new cars, all of those things would demand hundreds of billions of investment right here, in the ol' USA. Please, that "global warming is a commie plot" is SO late '80s.
If it's a "commie plot", that's a new one.
Re: Halliburton--have you ever noticed that when you make it impossible for businesses to operate in one locale, they tend to go places where they're welcome? Why would Halliburton or anybody else in oilfield services want to hang around here?
Keep that sail pivot on top of your Volvo, and the propeller on your hat, well lubed.
"He did say it would be a terrible year for hurricanes, was it?" --Evillib
Show me where Al Gore said that and then we can talk. Good luck.
"What! New york's not under water yet? But Al gore said it would happen! I'm confused" --savagerocks
Maybe you are confused because Al Gore never said anything like that. Did you ever consider that?
You keep using this word, "repeatability." I do not think it means what you think it means.
In science, you make an experiment and you get some results. The results are said to be "repeatable" if there than an agreed-upon limit of variability using the same measurement procedure, the same observer, the same measuring instrument, used under the same conditions, at the same location, over a short period of time.
sure 'nuff.
Why don't you show the evidence that GW alarmists have been able to replicate results of their hypothesis...instead of tweaking computer models to produce the desired outcome.
The alarmists...using their faulty approach fell on their collective faces in predicting last years hurricane activity. Their faulty premiss has not been able to predict anything...only more conjectures.
More admissions from Wesley that he knows nothing of the scientific method.
And you spent how many years studying it?
I know this is like shouting down a well but...
"Hypotheses" can not be said to be "repeatable." Unless you mean, like, saying them over and over again. Experiments are called repeatable if they satisfy the requirements I posted above.
There is no climate model anywhere that predicts year-to-year weather, for the same reason that there is no climate model that predicts baseball scores, because climate and weather are different things.
You're missing the REAL ignorance in the "repeatability" canard. The fact that those "tweaked models" predict the future, which is not observable, is their shortcoming. If only the models would predict the future and show us the future which they predict (a crystal ball would suffice) THEN perhaps the skeptics would accept the models, which, if we could see the future, we wouldn't need.
How's that for "logic"?
Randy
The real canard is that GW alarmists never stake out a position...their entire premiss is based on not having to ever face reality...just keep adjusting the models and making more dire predictions about the future.
The IPCC has been evaluating the predictions of the alarmists since 1988...lets put the stake in the ground right there...19 years ago. Show evidence that any of their dire predictions have been accurate or repeatable.
Keep showing your scientific ignorance.
The Earth keeps getting warmer. Ice is melting. That's one prediction that has come true.
I personally believe that cons know that man-made GW is real, but they don't care for two reasons.
The Evangelicals: They think that the Earth was given us by god to rape and use as we see fit. Plus, they think the rapture is coming so it all won't matter anyway.
The Corporatists: They anticipate having enough money to avoid the most onerous negative ramifications. They can move north or inland as necessary. Only the little people will be in trouble.
This is usually where the global warming nuts fall out of the equation. I asked for scientific info and get nothing.
- The Earth keeps getting warmer. Ice is melting. That's one prediction that has come true. - pragmaticliberal
Yep, it's called spring time...and that melting ice...right again. I happens everytime I mix an adult beverage with ice.
Provide ebidence of the catastrophic predictions or don't waste my time with your blather.
How can anyone provide "ebidence" for something that hasn't happened yet? I mean, if you're going to pose a "gotcha" question, it should at least make sense.
One way scientists confirm climate models is to feed in historical data to see if it matches what was observed in the past.
You'd save us all a lot of time, though, if you'd just acknowledge that there is nothing anyone can say or do to convince you.
I've not asked you to provide Karnac like skills. The IPCC was formed 19 years ago...and the question is still the same.
What hypothesis posed by the global warming alarmists has been tested and proven to be repeatable and reliable?
The IPCC has issued at least 4 reports and have had to change their predictions every time...in most cases to less severe consequences. Yeah, I know that additional research brings more info and revisions are necessary.
And that's the point...they keep clainging the bell about the dire consequences...while all the time moving the goal posts...in order not to face issues of credibility. The science professed is based on woefully inadequate data and computer models.
Political panderers like the IPCC really hope that tomorrow never comes...and they and their supporters never have to face the music.
The IPCC has issued at least 4 reports and have had to change their predictions every time...in most cases to less severe consequences.
Let's see:
Wow. Yet another assertion pulled totally out of your ass. What a surprise.
Yep, the lower end projections have decreased every report...in another 20-30 years it may fall below zero and produce warnings of an impending ice age.
On the other hand...at the rate they're changing the upper projections we might be facing a scorched earth as hot as hades.
If you throw out enough scenarios...you're bound to get lucky.
Their hypothesis is unproven and not repeatable...so it falls short of theory.
"Their hypothesis is unproven and not repeatable."
You still don't know what "repeatable" means. It's a model of the whole Earth, not an experiment in a beaker done by Bill Nye the Science Guy.
Wesley has asked for evidence. All he need do is trot over to a nearby research library with peer reviewed articles and he will . . . oh never mind. Try spending a month or two here:
http://www.realclimate.org
Mark, I linked to that site a while back in response to some flat earthers. The response was pretty funny- the same conservatives who are constantly announcing the demise of the "dinosaur" media, and its replacement by the "new" media (GOP shills on radio/web), mocked me for linking to a site operated by scientists ("you linked to a blog??)
The same guys that link to FreeRepublic and Newsbusters as backup. Gotta love them.
The Earth keeps getting warmer. Ice is melting.
Has that happened before in the worlds history?
Actually, if you could look back at yourself for just an instant, you could see that your bias and hatred for those two groups is what fuels YOUR OWN inflexible belief in AGW dogma.
Talkin' to Pregmatic and his hysteria toward Evangelicals and Corporatists.
http://www.gcrio.org/CONSEQUENCES/fall95/mod.html
Here is some data that was collected to test the predictions of various climate change models. A highlight of the results here:
"Virtually Certain:(1) The temperature of the stratosphere--an upper region of the atmosphere that extends from about ten to fifty kilometers (six to thirty miles) above the surface of the Earth--will be significantly cooled. This cooling comes about through the combined effect of increases in carbon dioxide and the observed depletion in stratospheric ozone, and the manner in which the two gases absorb and re-emit energy. Opposite in sign to what is expected near the ground, the change had been predicted by models and has now been observed. As such, it provides potential early evidence of greenhouse warming. "
Thanks for the info...some other findings from your source.
- The best available estimate, from the international assessment by the IPCC and based on the range of available model predictions, is that the global-mean surface temperature will increase by about 0.5 to 2 ° from 1990 to 2050...The actual temperature change could fall outside the ranges given here should natural climate variations happen to be large during the period of the prediction.
- the globally averaged temperature at the surface of the Earth has risen about 1°F (or 0.5°C) in the last 100 years. Because of the natural variability of climate, the change cannot yet be ascribed unambiguously to the increase in greenhouse gases over the same period.
The read is interesting...but provides scant measurable results from the dire predictions...try again.
You asked for data that was concurrent with predictions of computer models, there it is. Your adjective "scant" implies some postive value of the data meets your criteria. If you are going to use the scientific method to disprove the scientific method you will fail everytime. Even among the "consensus" there are new studies, models, experiments etc. that challenge previous results, but, the point of the article is that some of the core hypotheses are now considered theories.
I asked for evidence of GW predictions that have proved to be true. The article you cited failed the test...it did not provide such evidence.
It was a nice read on theories and models...but not about proven results.
W do you think the current amount of man made gases/chemicals that are being produced and pumped into the enviornment are a good thing?
Mother Nature tends to get kid of screwy when you put too much of one substance into the enviornment when that substance doesn't occur there naturally.
I'm just wondering what your thoughts are on this?
It can have undesirable consequences.
Therefore, we should sign any treaty recommended by "environmentalists" who care zippo about consequences of said treaties.
Wow. Good examples of baseless marginalizing AND strawman in one post. Good work!
I think Wesley is saying that he wants proof that if we put the gun up to our head and pull the trigger, we'll be dead. Of course, that's not an theory I want to test....but even if we did, Wesley would say "Repeat it."
An interesting picture you draw. In fact, Wesley is trying to stop you Leftopians from comitting the suicide you describe.
Explain how cleaning up the environment is "suicide" while polluting is not suicide.
Explain how conserving oil is bad for anyone except the oil companies.
Explain how innovating renewable energies, which creates new jobs and industries, will bankrupt the economy.
Explain why towns which have adopted Kyoto have seen the local economy stimulated.
GW doubters, like you, need to put up or shut up. Get a peer-reviewed paper which refutes GW and we'll start listening. Till then, you are children clinging to a fairy tale.
Randy
Do you even know the penalties for the US built into Kyoto? Do you know why Clinton wouldn't sign it?
Do you have a point? Why don't you make it instead of asking stupid questions.
Paste the relevant text from Kyoto and provide a link to your source. Why is it so hard to get you and others to argue reasonably?
The key word, "yet." The article was written almost twelve years ago. Read this year's IPCC report.
and he cannot seem to grasp that as time goes by data is collected and results refined. So yes they do change over time, just like the real world does. That is what the GW deniers hate, the real world.
There were so many foolish things about that article. The NYT reminds me, at times, of Rush Limbaugh jammed into jodhpurs.
There was the "Gore said hurricanes would be stronger and more numerous, but last year there were no major hurricanes," as if a trend gives you absolute knowledge of a uniform, single-factor cause. Has he heard of a thing called a trend?
And my favorite, "Gore said that the seas would rise 20 feet, but the UN said it would only rise 23 inches this century!" Gore didn't say the seas would rise 20 feet. He was talking about the unprecedented speed of the melting of the ice cap, and simply gave us a worst-case scenario. IF the Greenland ice cap melted, the seas would rise 20 feet, which WOULD be a catastrophe.
And finally, the article seemed to deliberately misunderstand what a popularizer does, righteously. Gore is not there to arbitrate between four researcher's work on the Icelandic microclimate: he's there to give a lay audience an idea of what's important, and how they can understand the basics of some really hairy science.
Oh, and Wesley, the mice did just such testing, and they found that things are much worse than they thought. That's why they've scheduled the planet for a makeover, starting with your brain. Just remember this number: 42.
thank you guys for a very interesting thread of "discussion". I dunno how you guys have the time for it but I guess when people feel strongly on the justice of their cause one makes time.
Its all about keeping the wealth and power in the hands of the oligarchy my friend. Any new technology may redistribute some of the wealth from those that have it now.They don't like that, so do all in thier power to keep said wealth. Lies, smears and intimidation are all valid in their desire to maintain the status quo.
Envy and hatred = easy converts to the latest Utopian gospel.
Quite clearly, the false utopianism of our age is represented by G.W. Bush and the Savage, Coulter-ized, Limbaughed conservative movement. The commie, this time, is working for you guys at Front Page.
That word "Commie" is from the McCarthy era. Just how old ARE you guys, anyway?
My apologies if this has already been posted (I confess I'm too lazy to wade through all of the commentary). However, an additional source of critique of Broad article can be found at Real Climate:
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2007/03/broad-irony/#more-419
Evidently, this is not the first time Broad has substantially misrepresented the science behind climate change.
(Oh -- their server tends to get choked up of late. If you try the link and it doesn't work at first, try it again later. Their criticism is worth reading, which may be why their server(s) are choked up so much.)
GLH.
Is the reason that conservatives, right-wingers, the GOP, and the "news"media deny and distract from the Global Warming Issue due to the fact that they HATE the Earth? Or maybe they can't see the forest for the lumber? Mountains are meant to be strip-mined, refined, then turned to automobiles? Water to feed cattle to produce more meat for the fast food restaurants? Is our entire existence, in their eyes, still locked in the concept of unlimited expansion of the economy? Well hey, buddy! If you keep expanding your economy in your lifetime while expanding your pollution and destruction, what about your children's opportunity to expand their economies and their right to pollute and destroy? Oh, they won't get that chance, because the so-called "pro-lifers" really hate children and all living things, right? Please clarify this point for me without parroting FOXNews, Limbaugh, O'Reilly, and all the other fascists. Try using your own minds (and hearts, if you had one) to explain every reason why you justify the constant destruction of OUR home.
Try leaving your city limits once in awhile (or even ONCE) instead of blabbering in your Rachel Carson/Carl Pope gruel. Our landscape and environment is quite well taken care of; we address our true environmental issues as they arise, and our kind of economy and political system enables us to actually do something about these problems, unlike others in the world.
Why do YOU keep demanding the goods which you say cause such destruction?
Global warming deniers are extra upset because of this:
They want your vote. They don't realize they won't get it without the required vaccination.
You seem to be pretty religious about your opposition to AGW. Skepticism is one thing, but your attempts at mockery and ridicule are reminiscent of religious competition.
Why don't we just leave the whole mess to the scientists to figure out? I am fine with whatever happens to the theory. You seem to be deeply invested in the fervent hope that AGW isn't happening.
There are still more weaknesses in the William Broad/New York Times article. Broad makes no mention that the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change was criticized for toning down its warnings for political reasons. Several critics from the scientific community have noted that previous predictions of global temperature increases have consistently proven too conservative. That is, temperatures have consistently risen as much as or more than the widely accepted predictions.
With regard to Richard Lindzen at MIT, it should also be noted that he has a history as a paid consultant to Exxon-Mobil. Not so many years ago, he was denying that there was any evidence of warming at all.
The Times is -- again -- taking the Side A/Side B approach. The same approach we saw in the debate over tobacco and smoking; the same we see now in evolution versus "intelligent design"; the same we saw in the lead-up to the war on Iraq (though in that case, the Times didn't acknowledge even a Side B, let alone Sides C, D, and E).