Myths and falsehoods about global warming
Since the release of the film An Inconvenient Truth (Paramount Classics, May 2006) featuring former Vice President Al Gore, the issue of global warming has received increased attention in the popular media. Yet numerous media figures have distorted the scientific studies they cite, frequently drawing criticism from the scientists who produced the studies. And while there is scientific consensus on many issues related to global warming, media figures have advanced several false, misleading, or baseless claims about the causes and seriousness of the crisis:
1. No scientific consensus that humans are the primary cause of global warming
Media figures, including MSNBC host Tucker Carlson, have claimed that "[t]here's no consensus" on "why" the "world is getting warmer." As Media Matters for America has repeatedly documented, scientific organizations such as the National Academy of Sciences (NAS) and the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) share the consensus view that, as stated in a June 2006 NAS report, "human activities are responsible for much of the recent warming" of the planet. An IPCC report released in February found:
Most of the observed increase in globally averaged temperatures since the mid-20th century is very likely due to the observed increase in anthropogenic [human-produced] greenhouse gas concentrations. This is an advance since the TAR's [Third Assessment Report] conclusion that "most of the observed warming over the last 50 years is likely to have been due to the increase in greenhouse gas concentrations". Discernible human influences now extend to other aspects of climate, including ocean warming, continental-average temperatures, temperature extremes and wind patterns. [The report defines "very likely" as a greater than 90 percent probability of occurrence.]
Additionally, despite the overwhelming scientific evidence to the contrary, media figures frequently claim that there is insufficient evidence that humans are contributing to global warming. On the July 29, 2006, edition of Fox News' The Beltway Boys, Weekly Standard executive editor and co-host Fred Barnes denied that humans are a cause of global warming. After co-host Morton M. Kondracke stated that "[g]lobal warming is a fact," Barnes replied, "Yeah, but who caused it? You don't know." When Kondracke replied, "Humans," Barnes retorted: "No. You don't know that."
2. Gore is exaggerating
Reviving a familiar smear during the 2000 presidential campaign of Gore as an "exaggerator," media figures have attacked Gore and the film by accusing him of exaggerating scientific assessments and predictions about rising sea levels, the possible links between global warming and hurricanes, and arctic melting. The attacks take the form of false comparisons and misrepresentations of his claims.
- Sea levels: In a March 13 article, "From a Rapt Audience, a Call to Cool the Hype," New York Times science writer William J. Broad set up a false comparison, suggesting that the IPCC report, which "estimated that the world's seas in this century would rise a maximum of 23 inches," contradicted Gore's claim, "citing no particular time frame," that seas could rise "up to 20 feet." In the book An Inconvenient Truth (Rodale Books, May 2006), Gore wrote that if the West Antarctic ice shelf "melted or slipped off its island mooring into the sea, it would raise sea levels worldwide by 20 feet." He added that "the West Antarctic ice shelf is virtually identical in size and mass to the Greenland ice dome, which also would raise sea levels worldwide by 20 feet if it melted or broke up and slipped into the sea."
But the IPCC projection to which Broad was referring involved rising sea levels as they are affected by "[c]ontinued greenhouse gas emissions at or above current rates" -- not the melting or breakup of the West Antarctic ice shelf or the Greenland ice dome. A chart projecting the rise of sea levels in six different scenarios showed that the "the best estimate for the high scenario," which defined the "likely range" of temperature increases over the next century to be from "2.4°C to 6.4°C," resulting in an increase in sea levels between 0.26 meters and 0.59 meters, which converts to a range of 10.24 to 23.23 inches. The IPCC further claimed that "[c]ontraction of the Greenland ice sheet is projected to continue to contribute to sea level rise after 2100" and that "[i]f a negative surface mass balance were sustained for millennia, that would lead to virtually complete elimination of the Greenland ice sheet and a resulting contribution to sea level rise of about 7 m," which is equivalent to approximately 23 feet. The apple-to-oranges comparison Broad made on sea levels was noted by Bob Somerby on his weblog, The Daily Howler.
The false comparison was repeated in a March 19 Wall Street Journal column by John Fund, who accused Gore of "environmental exaggerations and hypocrisy." Similarly, on the March 21 edition of Fox News' The Big Story, Cato Institute senior fellow Patrick Michaels used this false comparison as the basis for characterizing Gore's position as "beyond shrill" and "thermonuclear."
- Hurricanes: Broad's article also falsely suggested that Gore endorsed the view that global warming affects hurricane frequency. The article claimed that Gore "cites research suggesting that global warming will cause both storm frequency and deadliness to rise," then reported that, in fact, "this past Atlantic season produced fewer hurricanes than forecasters predicted (five versus nine), and none that hit the United States," a fact the article suggests contradicts Gore's claim.
But while Gore attributed the claim "that global warming is even leading to an increased frequency of hurricanes" to "some" scientists in his book, he also acknowledged "[t]here is less agreement among scientists about the relationship between the total number of hurricanes each year and global warming." Similarly, in the update to the film Gore said: "There is no scientific consensus linking the absolute number of hurricanes to global warming." Further, the recent IPCC report appeared to agree with Gore's assessment, concluding that "[b]ased on a range of models, it is likely that future tropical cyclones (typhoons and hurricanes) will become more intense, with larger peak wind speeds and more heavy precipitation associated with ongoing increases of tropical SSTs [sea surface temperatures]." [Emphasis in original.]
- Arctic melting: On the March 21 edition of National Public Radio's (NPR) Morning Edition, science correspondent Richard Harris asserted that in a December 2006 speech, "Gore said that Arctic ice could be gone entirely in 34 years," which, according to Harris, "no one can say" with such "certainty." In fact, in his speech, Gore was apparently citing a research study released three days prior, which found that the "recent retreat of Arctic sea ice is likely to accelerate so rapidly that the Arctic Ocean could become nearly devoid of ice during summertime as early as 2040," or 34 years from when Gore made his remarks. According to a San Francisco Chronicle article on Gore's presentation noted that Gore "said he was surprised to learn this week about new, earlier projections for when the Arctic sea ice will completely melt during the summertime," quoting Gore as saying, "I was shocked that their horizon was 34 years under a business-as-usual scenario."
3. "Rank-and-file" scientists disagree with Gore
In support of his thesis that "[c]riticisms of Mr. Gore have come not only from conservative groups and prominent skeptics of catastrophic warming, but also from rank-and-file scientists," The New York Times' Broad cited numerous scientists who -- far from being "rank-and-file" scientists with "no political ax to grind" -- are well-known global warming skeptics who have made statements questioning global warming that have either been debunked or discredited by the scientific community. Though Broad failed to say so in his article, the scientist he named specifically as his example of a "rank-and-file" scientist who has criticized the film -- Don J. Easterbrook -- has taken a position on global warming that puts him outside of the scientific mainstream and at odds with the IPCC.
Further, while Broad purported to represent the views of mainstream scientists on the accuracy of the film, in May 2006, at the time of the theatrical release of An Inconvenient Truth, the Times published an article by Andrew C. Revkin reporting that mainstream scientists, while taking issue with some details in the film, embraced its premise and subscribed to Gore's "main point":
In interviews and e-mail exchanges, many climate specialists who have seen the film quibbled about details but tended to agree with Eric Steig, a University of Washington geochemist who posted his reactions at the Web log realclimate.org after a recent Seattle screening: ''The small errors don't detract from Gore's main point, which is that we in the United States have the technological and institutional ability to have a significant impact on the future trajectory of climate change.''
A June 2006 Associated Press article reported a similar consensus among scientists.
4. The sun, not human activity, causes global warming
The claim that the sun -- rather than human activity -- is primarily responsible for global warming has been trumpeted by nationally syndicated columnist John McCaslin, who wrote in his March 2 Washington Times column that a February 28 National Geographic News article "cites 2005 data" showing similar warming trends on Earth and Mars as "evidence that the current global warming on Earth is being caused by changes in the sun." In fact, the National Geographic News article, to which conservative Internet gossip Matt Drudge linked, did not itself assert the existence of evidence that "changes in the sun" are largely responsible for global warming -- as McCaslin suggested -- but rather reported on "one scientist's controversial theory." The article first quoted "Colin Wilson, a planetary physicist at England's Oxford University" saying that the claim that the sun is largely responsible for global warming is "completely at odds with the mainstream scientific opinion" and that it "contradict[s] the extensive evidence presented in the most recent IPCC report." The article added that "[t]he conventional theory is that climate changes on Mars can be explained primarily by small alterations in the planet's orbit and tilt, not by changes in the sun" and that "most scientists think it is pure coincidence that both planets are between ice ages right now." The article further reported that "the biggest stumbling block in" the theory is the "dismissal of the greenhouse effect," and quoted Amato Evan, a climate scientist at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, who said that "without the greenhouse effect there would be very little, if any, life on Earth, since our planet would pretty much be a big ball of ice."
Rush Limbaugh made a similar claim in September 2005, selectively reading on his nationally syndicated radio show from a year-old article to falsely suggest that a 2004 study by the Max Planck Institute for Solar System Research found that an increase in solar brightness is the sole cause of global warming. In fact, the article, which appeared in the London Telegraph in July 2004, specifically noted that the study's lead author did not believe increased solar brightness was responsible for the dramatic rise in global temperatures over the past 20 years; according to the parent organization of the group that conducted the study, solar brightness "plays only a minor role in the current global warming."
Two days before Gore testified, Drudge purported to reveal several "[p]roposed questions" that "could lead [sic] Gore scrambling for answers!" One question asked:
How can you continue to claim that global warming on Earth is primarily caused by mankind when other planets (Mars, Jupiter and Pluto) with no confirmed life forms and certainly no man-made industrial greenhouse gas emissions also show signs of global warming? Wouldn't it make more sense that the sun is responsible for warming since it is the common denominator?
5. Carbon dioxide is not bad for the environment
In May 2006, the Competitive Enterprise Institute (CEI) released two 60-second television ads "focusing on the alleged global warming crisis and the calls by some environmental groups and politicians for reduced energy use." One ad titled "Energy" suggests that environmentalists have falsely labeled carbon dioxide as a pollutant when, in fact, it is "essential to life." The ad is misleading because, while carbon dioxide is not inherently harmful, excessive discharges of the gas are indeed harmful to the atmosphere.
Wall Street Journal columnist Pete du Pont echoed the commercial's claim, asserting that carbon dioxide "is not a pollutant -- indeed it is vital for plant growth," But, contrary to du Pont's suggestion, scientists do not argue that carbon dioxide is inherently harmful. Rather, they point to the danger posed to the atmosphere by excessive discharges of C02, as the Natural Resources Defense Council noted:
[A] pollutant is a substance that causes harm when present in excessive amounts. CO2 has been in the atmosphere since life on earth began, and in the right amounts CO2 is important for making the earth hospitable for continued life. But when too much CO2 is put into the atmosphere, it becomes harmful. We have long recognized this fact for other pollutants. For example, phosphorus is a valuable fertilizer, but in excess, it can kill lakes and streams by clogging them with a blanket of algae.
6. Greenland and Antarctic ice is increasing, not decreasing
The second CEI ad, "Glaciers," claimed that scientific studies have proven that "Greenland's glaciers are growing" and that the "Antarctic ice sheet is getting thicker, not thinner." But as the weblog Think Progress noted, the Greenland study found increased snow accumulation only on the island's interior, while separate studies conducted during the same period found significant melting among the coastal glaciers. Further, the lead author of the study on Antarctica issued a public statement accusing CEI of a "deliberate effort to confuse and mislead the public about the global warming debate." According to the statement, "Growth of the ice sheet was only noted on the interior of the ice sheet and did not include coastal areas. Coastal areas are known to be losing mass, and these losses could offset or even outweigh the gains in the interior areas. ... The fact that the interior ice sheet is growing is a predicted consequence of global climate warming."
On Fox News' Special Report with Brit Hume, Fred Barnes made a similar claim, asserting that the "hysterical position is to say that sea levels -- based on some glaciers in some places melting -- based on that, sea level is going to rise 20 feet. ... It's getting colder in Greenland." Du Pont's Wall Street Journal column also claimed that "the coastal stations in Greenland had actually experienced a cooling trend." But climate scientist Petr Chylek of the Los Alamos National Laboratory, who found in a 2004 report that "Greenland coastal stations data have undergone predominantly a cooling trend," published a study a year later that attributed this cooling trend to local climate patterns -- specifically, the North Atlantic Oscillations (NAO). Chylek then analyzed the temperature record in the Danmarkshavn region of Greenland -- an area on the northeastern coast apparently unaffected by the NAO -- and found that the rate of warming there was 2.2 times faster than the global average. This corresponds with United Nations climate-change models that show Greenland warming at a faster rate than the rest of the planet and partially explains the rapid deterioration of the Greenland ice sheet in recent years. In addition, recent studies documenting the increased melting in Antarctica and Greenland, as well as studies of past ice-sheet melting, have strengthened the case for accelerated sea-level rise over the course of the next century.
Even when it is accepted that ice is melting, media figures have suggested that scientists don't know why they are melting. In a segment on "the health of our planet" on the September 13, 2006, edition of NBC's Nightly News, host Brian Williams showed recently released NASA images of the Arctic from 2004 and 2005 and said that the difference between the two demonstrated "an abrupt shrinkage ... equal to an area about the size of the state of Texas." Williams stated that the ice is not "shrinking that much every year," adding that "[s]cientists can't say yet whether global warming is the culprit." However, according to the scientist and author of the NASA study on the Arctic ice meltdown to which Williams was presumably referring in citing the Arctic images, new data show "the strongest evidence of global warming in the Arctic so far."
7. Global warming has come and gone
- Most of the global warming in the past 100 years occurred before 1940: During a panel discussion of global warming on a May 2006 edition of Fox News' The Journal Editorial Report, Wall Street Journal editorial board member Rob Pollock falsely claimed that "most" of the global warming that has occurred "over the past century ... happened before 1940." In fact, according to an analysis of "global-mean surface temperature[s]" last revised in January 2006 by NASA's Goddard Institute for Space Studies, "It is no longer correct to say that 'most global warming occurred before 1940' ":
Global warming is now 0.6°C in the past three decades and 0.8°C in the past century. It is no longer correct to say that "most global warming occurred before 1940". More specifically, there was slow global warming, with large fluctuations, over the century up to 1975 and subsequent rapid warming of almost 0.2°C per decade.
- Global warming "stopped in 1998": Fox News host Brit Hume and a Washington Times editorial both cited a misleading statistic to suggest that global warming might have "stopped in 1998" because of a "negligible decrease in temperature" since that year. While 1998 was the hottest year on record, according to the Climatic Research Unit, an examination of temperature data since 1998 undermines the assertion that global warming "stopped" in that year. For example, neither mentioned the fact that five different years since 1998 (2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, and 2005) have seen warmer temperatures than any year preceding 1998, according to Climatic Research Unit figures. Nor did they explain that 2005 was the second-warmest year on record, according to the Climatic Research Unit, and the hottest year on record when analysis of warming in the Arctic is taken into account, according to the Goddard Institute for Space Studies.
8. Alarmism then and now
Media figures have argued that the predictions by scientists now should be put in context because scientists were convinced in the 1970s that global cooling was occurring but have since become similarly convinced that global warming is occurring. In fact, far from suggesting impending doom, one paper frequently cited, "Variations in the Earth's Orbit: Pacemaker of the Ice Ages," addressed only long-term trends "with periods of 20,000 years and longer."
9. Because it's cold outside today, global warming can't be real
Several media figures -- and even weather forecasters -- have looked at weather patterns lasting days, weeks, or months to disprove global warming, which is based on thousands of years of records. For instance, the January 17 edition of Fox News' Your World featured on-screen graphics that read: "Global Warming?" and "Nation in a Deep Freeze: What Global Warming?" Host Neil Cavuto began the segment by noting freezing temperatures in Texas, Arizona, and California and asking if these temperatures were "[p]roof that all this hype over global warming could be just that -- hype?"















Okay, this is the fish-in-barrel post I have been waiting for!
Come deniers, one and all, with no fear of being flagged off-topic. Tell your friends! Somebody on the other side has to have a non-tissue-paper-thin argument... right? Or is the usual crap really the best your side has?
*yawn*
1. "AP INCORRECTLY CLAIMS SCIENTISTS PRAISE GORE’S MOVIE," U.S. Senate Committee on Environmental and Public Works, 6/27/06
2. "First 'Four Pillars' on Global Warming Speech": This is where the 2001 reports from the NAS and IPCC, which Media Matters used to cite, are shown to be debunked. Media Matters now has to cite new "reports" since the others were discredited.
3. The Politically Incorrect Guide to Global Warming by Christopher Horner
4. Unstoppable Global Warming: Every 1500 Years by Dennis Avery and Fred Singer
5. "Skeptic's Guide to Debunking Global Warming" (pdf)
Doesn't it embarrass you at all that your side has no peer-reviewed science? With all the money out there, doesn't it seem to you that there'd be something other than the raving of cranks?
Call them cranks all you want, ignore the other side totally.....but by definition, an "alarmist" is a crank. We are all responsible for leaving our planet as healthy as possible and to appreciate and treat our environment with respect, nobody argues that. But "alarmists" have only themselves to blame when people balk at their scare tactics, the same way the gay marriage "alarmists" opponents are treated when they say it will destroy marriage.......another overblown piece of unproven rhetoric.
If their position has merit, Tommy, they'll do the science and publish the results. Unless and until they do so, they have as much right to scientific respectability as those who believe the fossil record is "God's little joke."
Until a climatologist gets one prediction right, ever, I might start possibly even reading peer reviewed science. Now is is kind of like reading peer-reviewed palm reading, or peer-reviewed astrology literature or peer-reviewed fortune-telling.
"NOAA continues to predict a high likelihood (75% chance) of an above-normal 2006 Atlantic hurricane season and a 20% chance of a near-normal season, according to a consensus of scientists at National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration's (NOAA) Climate Prediction Center (CPC), National Hurricane Center (NHC), and Hurricane Research Division (HRD). Therefore, 2006 is forecast to be the tenth above-normal season in the last twelve years. See NOAA’s definitions of above-, near-, and below-normal seasons.
This updated outlook calls for a seasonal total of 12-15 named storms, with 7-9 becoming hurricanes, and 3-4 becoming major hurricanes (categories 3-5 on the Saffir-Simpson hurricane intensity scale). The likely range of NOAA’s Accumulated Cyclone Energy (ACE) index (Bell and Halpert, 2000) is 110%-170% of the median. These totals include the three tropical storms (Alberto, Beryl, and Chris) that have already occurred. Therefore, for the remainder of the season, we expect an additional 9-12 named storms, 7-9 hurricanes, and 3-4 major hurricanes."
Leather, really, until you at least try to understand the difference between weather and climate, you're just making yourself look silly.
It sometimes seems impossible that Copernicus and Galilleo lived over 500 years ago and were punished by right wing conservatives of the Catholic Church for daring to say that the earth was round and that the earth revolved around the sun, not vice versa and that the universe was subject to change.
Maybe , in a wierd and backward manner, we might all be better off living in the dark ages and science was st ll viewed as sorcecery and the work of the devil.
"but by definition, an "alarmist" is a crank"
No, it isn't. Tommy, you can't just redefine words however you like again.
An "alarmist" could just be the guy who pulls the red handle in a burning building...
OK, I'll give you that.........
Scientists who have spent decades of work on this before publishing their findings are "alarmists"? If you have that little respect for the vast majority of the scientific community, and for scientific method in general, then no amount of evidence is going to sway you from your position. Maybe you need to refresh your understanding of the concepts of scientific consensus and peer review. Real scientists don't use "scare tactics."
The "cranks" are the fringe-dwellers and corporate shills who seek to discredit the real scientists for personal or political purposes. From the Wikipedia entry on scientific consensus: "As science impinges on society, societal groups become advocates of outlying theories for policy purposes, not scientific ones, giving them a megaphone as it were." These are the cranks.
There's plenty out there, you just have to look.
http://www.worldclimatereport.com/index.php/2006/12/01/are-humans-involved-in-global-warming/#more-199
"The debate on climate change is never boring, the debate is full of surprises, and anyone claiming the debate is over is simply dismissing a significant number of papers that appear regularly in the major journals."
typical right wing "proof" by shoes. his "unstoppable" global warming link is to a book on amazon. no facts, just by the book. yawn.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4520665474899458831&q=Global+Warming+and+swindle&hl=en
Please watch this video. It is well done. None of the scientists were paid by oil companies.
Many of their names were used as part of the "consensus" and they don't believe that Global Warming is caused by Human CO2 production.
1 hour and 16 min. Very well done. It was played on Britain mainstream TV.
Sorry, can't take the time.........I'm having my carbon neutrality footprint taken at my local ACLU office in a few, then it's off to the forest to munch on green sagebrush.
I would strongly advise against that, sir. Sagebrush only grows in the desert and high plains, and while edible this time of year, is definitely not in season.
If you're in a mood for forest food, might I suggest our cedar nuts topped with northbank moss, accompanied by a very nice blue lichen and a side of fern? A Euell Gibbons favorite, and highly recommended.
And for the lady?
Bang, Neon ! A Euell Gibbons joke! Vintage and funny
And none of them have published peer-reviewed studies backing up their claims.
Next!
1 hour and 16 min. Very well done. It was played on Britain mainstream TV.
Yes, I'm sure it was excellent. The same man who made it also made a documentary on how breast implants were actually GOOD for women. What short of excellence would you expect from a man with credentials like that? And when you think that with that story, he'd reached the pinnacle of documentary making, he outdoes himself, creating a film named "Against Nature". It was aired on the BBC, who soon afterwards had to make a public apology for it. I guess his credibility will be irrefutable when the BBC doesn't have to apologize for this film.
Well, maybe you can attack the cofounder of Greenpeace who is in the video or the MIT/Harvard Scientists...I guess they are too corporate.
Yeah and the MIT scientist saying he COMPLETELY misrepresented him.
LOL. How was he misrepresented when he said what he said in the video.
What they probably did ala Michael Moore and even right wing documentary buffoons was lie about the purpose of the movie.
Ever hear of editing???
Leatherhelmet siad:
"[H]e misrepresented...what he said in the movie...[E}ven right wing documetary bufoons... lie..."
I couldn't agree with you more, Leather. Good points.
nicely done...
Ldoren,
Are these people the best you got in your side? Martin Durkin and Aurthur B. Robinson? Where is science publications? Where is peer-reviewed journals?
Read this article about this documentary:
The Real Global Warming Swindle from The Independent
A few excerpts:
"Other graphs used out-of-date information or data that was shown some years ago to be wrong."
"Channel 4 yesterday distanced itself from the programme..."
"Mr Durkin has already been criticised by one scientist who took part in the programme over alleged misrepresentation of his views on the climate."
"However, further inquiries revealed that the C4 graph was based on a diagram in another paper produced as part of a "petition project" by the same group of climate sceptics." (Sounds familiar? Infamous Oregon Petition Project from OISM, printed in the typeface and format of National Academy of Science proceeding - to make it look like official publication of the academy's peer-reviewed journal).
"Mr Durkin admitted that his graphics team had extended the time axis along the bottom of the graph to the year 2000. "There was a fluff there," he said."
Who is this Martin Durkin?
Read this from Wiki: Martin Durkin
A few excerpts:
"He is understood to have once been closely involved with the Revolutionary Communist Party and its later offshoots Living Marxism and Spiked, a magazine and associated political network which promotes libertarian views, and is highly critical of environmentalism.
"However the Commission also concluded that Durkin had misled his interviewees about the nature and purpose of the documentary, and that he had misrepresented and distorted their views by editing the interview footage in a misleading way. For these reasons, Channel 4 later issued a public apology on prime time TV."
"Subsequent television documentaries by Durkin aired as Equinox programs which include a 1998 documentary which argued that silicone breast implants were in fact beneficial to a woman's health"
"Dr. Mae-Wan Ho, a scientist featured on the program, later said of her participation in the program: "I feel completely betrayed and misled. They did not tell me it was going to be an attack on my position.""
The asian scientist in the film was not a woman...so if you cut an pasted your quotes, that makes it a little suspect.
2nd...the data about the sunspot activity is peer reviewed and accurate.
3rd...it is a fact that the data about CO2 does lag behind temperature.
4th...since CO2 lags behind temperature, it demonstrates pretty reasonably that CO2 does not cause the rise in temperature, in fact temperature caused the rise in CO2 b/c the oceans give off more CO2 as temperatures rise. However, oceans take hundreds of years to heat up, which explains the lag.
Just watch the video and stop citing wik.
WWWAAAAAHHHHHH stop showing the bias and dishonesty of the man who made this bogus documentary I am pushing so desperatly since I cant cough up a SINGLE PEER REVIEWED SCIENTIFIC STUDY
2nd...the data about the sunspot activity is peer reviewed and accurate.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
This is what The Independent article says:
"Other graphs used in the film contained known errors, notably the graph of sunspot activity. Mr Durkin used data on solar cycle lengths which were first published in 1991 despite a corrected version being available - but again the corrected version would not have supported his argument. "
So why Durkin didn't use recent and corrected version of data? Because that would NOT support this argument, right? Basically this guy is a crook, dishonest. Why should I believe anything in his documentary?
4th...since CO2 lags behind temperature, it demonstrates pretty reasonably that CO2 does not cause the rise in temperature, in fact temperature caused the rise in CO2 b/c the oceans give off more CO2 as temperatures rise. However, oceans take hundreds of years to heat up, which explains the lag.
++++++++++++++++++++++++
Again from The Independent:
"A graph central to the programme's thesis, purporting to show variations in global temperatures over the past century, claimed to show that global warming was not linked with industrial emissions of carbon dioxide. Yet the graph was not what it seemed."
"However, further inquiries revealed that the C4 graph was based on a diagram in another paper produced as part of a "petition project" by the same group of climate sceptics. This diagram was itself based on long out-of-date information on terrestrial temperatures compiled by Nasa scientists.
However, crucially, the axis along the bottom of the graph has been distorted in the C4 version of the graph, which made it look like the information was up-to-date when in fact the data ended in the early 1980s."
The video was well-done. Too bad the IPCC won't release the data on how they came to their global warming "consensus".
That should be good for an easy half-dozen documentaries.
Why are they hiding the data?
Here is a nice link to the Flat Earth Society to go with the rest of your links:
The Flat Earth Society
Come to think of it they may have more scientific credibility.
Very thorough report, fellas.
Val & Von - The deniers will probably say something like "MMFA doesn't cite enough sources" or some crap like that. I know I wasn't an overnight believer in the whole climate change/global warming situation. I do understand now that we have to make changes to protect the planet and ourselves. A very nice read - thanks much MMFA!
I don't care if some scientific aspects of global warming are not absolutely certainties which, of course, will prompt scientific debate. I've heard and read enough about global warming to believe that we need to put this matter on the fast track. Even if the effects of global warming are only half as bad as predicted then we're still in deep trouble. If there is anything our government can be doing to at least learn more, let alone start implementing safeguards and protection, we should be doing it NOW.
Bottom line is no one knows why the Earth is warming up. For all the scientist who claim global warming is caused by man, there are just as many scientist who claim global warming is not caused by man. The Earth has gone through warming and cooling trends for centuries.
True, false, true. Next!
TRUE TRUE AND TRUE.
Then you shouldn't have any difficulty finding hundreds of peer-reviewed publications to stack up alongside the number of papers supporting the consensus.
Go ahead.
I'll wait.
Oops, somebody just sent out the latest mantra "peer-reviewed" studies......wow, that's good! Ridiculous, but good.
sure, let's listen to you and hannity and limbaugh.
It's not a mantra. It's how science works, you ass.
What do you suggest, Tommy, instead of peer review?
I'm just teasing, it's Friday........
go somewhere else for your entertainment, moron.
Nice. Dude, the reason I defend you when people go off on you is because it is not only more interesting to debate someone who has some intellectual rigor, it helps me in terms of being able to get to a better understanding of what is really going on in the world.
If you're just here to play grab-ass, let me know.
In S. Fred Singer’s letter to fellow IPCC scientists regarding the inappropriate changes made to the IPCC’s report Summary that completely contradict the actual findings in the study chapters, he also commented on the peer-review process:
“A separate question is whether IPCC procedures on matters such as peer-review are in accord with accepted scientific standards. For example, a conscientious journal editor would not choose an author's colleague as a referee. The Nature article points out that "the integrity of the reviewing and approval process is ... an essential element in assuring the credibility of the resulting conclusions." The IPCC assigned the role of convening lead author to Ben Santer, who then based much of the conclusion of Chapter 8 on two of his own papers that had not yet appeared in peer-reviewed journals (4). (The comment deadline on Chapter 8 was July 1995; one paper appeared in Climate Dynamics in December 1995, his other paper in Nature in July 1996). Eight of his co-authors are also listed as Chapter 8 contributors. I don't think that one can fairly expect them to be critical of their own work. And indeed, I have seen several scientific notes being submitted for publication, critiquing the two Santer articles, now that these have been published in widely available journals.”
So “peer-reviewed” is the standard that we must all uphold? What a joke!
Please read the letter in it's entirety...it is very enlightening.
I did. Did you?
S. Fred Singer is not a climatologist, nor does he play one on TV.However, this has not stopped him from taking oil industry money to "research" climate change, much as he took tobacco industry money to "research" the effect of tobacco smoke. Surprisingly, the results of his research favored the interests of his funders.
You seem to be of the impression that Singer attacked the entire practice of peer review in his letter. In actuality, he challenged the selection of a particular "convening lead author" for a particular chapter. I don't know whether his concerns are or are not well-founded. I certainly do not see the opinion of one scientist, whose own integrity is open to vigorous debate, as being sufficient to damn the entire process of peer review in scholarly journals.
Is there one, any, a single contrarian researcher who has done any refereed research? Any at all?
So, excepting funding for scientific research from private donors disqualifies a scientist from commenting on global warming. How about the global warming poster boy, James Hansen, taking money for research from the Kerry Foundation for research. I guess that is somehow different. Here’s an excerpt from the press release…
“For example, Brokaw presents NASA’s James Hansen as an authority on climate change without revealing to viewers the extensive political and financial ties that Hansen has to Democrat Party partisans. Hansen, the director of the agency's Goddard Institute for Space Studies, received a $250,000 grant from the charitable foundation headed by former Democrat Presidential candidate John Kerry's wife, Teresa Heinz.
Subsequent to the Heinz Foundation grant, Hansen publicly endorsed Democrat John Kerry for president in 2004, a political endorsement considered to be highly unusual for a NASA scientist.
Hansen also has acted as a consultant to Gore's slide-show presentations on global warming, on which Gore’s movie is based. Hansen has actively promoted Gore and his movie, even appearing at a New York City Town Hall meeting with Gore and several Hollywood producers in May.
Hansen also conceded in a 2003 issue of Natural Science ([link to naturalscience.com] ) that the use of “extreme scenarios" to dramatize climate change “may have been appropriate at one time” to drive the public's attention to the issue --- a disturbing admission by a prominent scientist.”
No conflict of interest here!? Please explain.
I'm sorry, I wasn't talking about Hansen, I was talking about Singer... and I somehow got the impression that you were too.
Now that’s rich. You were talking about researchers like S. Fred Singer who receive private funding being disqualified from expressing their thoughts about global warming. You also seemed concerned that their scientific findings might end up favoring those who were funding their research. I pointed out that one of the most revered scientist in the global warming movement, James Hanson, also receives funding from private donors and his findings regarding global warming fall along the same beliefs of those funding him. Unlike Singer, Hansen apparently presents no problem or conflict in your mind. I just wondered if you could explain why it is alright for one but not the other. Apparently, you can’t since you now want to act like you forgot what we were talking about. Weak
There are some notable contrasts between Hansen's "award" and Singer's "funding" that are worth mentioning.
1. Hansen's award came from a charitable organization, while Singer received his money from vested commercial interests. I find it interesting how Singer's conclusions seem to always (coincidentally?) match the PR points of the people paying him (like Big Tobacco and Big Oil), but Hansen has openly praised the Bush administration in some areas:
'For his part, Mr. Hansen explained that he has not always disagreed with the administration's environmental positions, offering approval for increased research into nuclear power and praising the White House's support for a methane gas program. "It is a success story, and the administration should be given credit for it," Mr. Hansen said.' --Washington Times
2. Hansen's award was given publicly for the world to see. However, in a September 24th, 1993, sworn affidavit, Singer originally admitted doing research for oil companies, including Exxon, Texaco, Arco, Shell and the American Gas Association... and then on February 12, 2001, Singer wrote a letter to The Washington Post denying he received any oil company money in the past 20 years when he had consulted for the oil industry.
3. There is a difference between an "award" (like the one Hansen received) and "funding". Hansen's award was given after the fact, it is much more difficult to assume a conflict or influence on the end result. In other words, Hansen's work for which he received the award, predated by many years winning the award, whereas the Oil Company funding can be much more easily described as a quid pro quo relationship.
4. As an aside, I find it interesting that in Singer's 1993 deposition, he also stunningly admits:
LAWYER:"Are you saying that you are not familiar with how methane is held in soils?
SINGER:"I'm not familiar with the literature on this particular subject."
LAWYER:"Have you not, sir, held yourself out as an expert in the sources of methane --
SINGER:"Yes."
LAWYER:"--into the atmosphere?"
SINGER:"Yes."
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I am a pretty skeptical person to begin with and that includes aspects of AGW, but let's keep this debate "apples to apples". We don't need to muddy the debate with dubious comparisons.
So typical of a liberal to parse words when they’re backed into a corner. They both received money from private sources and they both came forward with “results” that matched those funding/awarding them. Now you can put the Bill Clinton “I did not have sex with that woman” word parse in play if you want to, but just like when he did it, it rings very hollow. An argument could be made that a “sweetheart” deal with Hansen was brokered before the fact and paid after the fact with the award. This would be typical behavior for “the ends justify the means” global warming zealots.
The thing I really don’t understand is this…if reducing CO2 is the goal of the global warming community why not do it in the name of becoming energy independent and freeing our country from the threat posed by oil rich middle eastern countries instead of creating a cause that must be accepted by faith like global warming. It is a FACT that we need to rid ourselves from our dependence on foreign oil. Developing alternative energy technology would also have the secondary effect of reducing CO2 emissions. That would be much easier to sell to global warming skeptics than the current global warming “the sky is falling” movement. My suggestion…put as much energy in demanding alternatives to fossil fuel as you are currently putting in drumming up support for the global warming faith and do it in the name of national security. The same goals can be achieved and will be based on facts that don’t require a leap of faith. Doing it this way will mean a lot of people (politicians and scientists) won’t get paid and that unfortunately will probably keep it from happening.
With the federal government collecting 18.3 cents per gallon and the states averaging another 30+ cents per gallon in tax revenue on gasoline how will the government ever replace that revenue. Everyone was up in arms that the big oil companies earned 9 cents per gallon for their product last year while ignoring the 50+ cents per gallon collected in taxes. Until they figure out an alternative way to power our vehicles that can be TAXED, there is not much hope for change.
what you term 'parsing words' to everyone else is simply being able to read and comprehend written and spoken English. And yes it is really true that in English 'funding' and 'award' are two separate things. Do try a dictionary someday, or take a night class in English and you may be able to someday catch-up. Maybe.
You are one of those true believers - anything that doesn't match your prejudices you just don't pay any attention to. Open Mind laid out a very clear refutation of your argument, and all you had in response was to start talking about the Clenis. Wasn't that, like, seven years ago? You guys need to get a new bogeyman.
Science does not need to be "accepted by faith," but your argument does - unless and until you put forth a scientific refutation of the results of hundreds of climate researchers. Not some video you found on the Web, not a book some guy wrote. Science. Published. Refereed.
It's ridiculous that this even has to be pointed out. It's the 21st century, for Christ's sake.
You prefer internet science to peer-reviewed science? Would you rather the medical procedure you're about to undergo a) appear on the internet or b) appear in a respected medical journal? Just curious.
Bzzzzt!
Oooo, sorry.
Thanks for playing. Here's a copy of our home game as a consolation prize. Drive safely.
What did I say was false in your opinion?
"For all the scientist who claim global warming is caused by man, there are just as many scientist [sic] who claim global warming is not caused by man."
That's false. And while your other two statements are technically true, they both miss the point entirely. Do yourself a favor, read the article and then get back to us.
You say it is false. Can you back that up?
He doesn't have to. He's not the one making an assertion of fact.
Must be hard to prove otherwise.
Eat a bowl of clams casino, you'll figure it out.
everybody loves a clown.
Clowns make me nervous. It's the whole Stephen King thing...
So you can just pull something out of your ass, and it's up to everybody else to prove it's false?
This is like arguing with a pre-modona. Calm down for gods sake.
What is a pre-modona? You mean a prima donna? I'm a ballet dancer now?
I think it's a modona larva.After you reach your adult modona stage, you'll become a post-modona.
It's not my opinion that this is false, it's a fact.
Nothing false, very succinct and well said. The earth has gone through several warming and cooling trends - one example is the Ice Age scare over 25 years ago. Even other planets, with no substantiated life forms, are going through warming trends now - it is related to the sun.
To absolutely say it's man made is accepting only one side of a very active debate that now exists. We all should conserve and be energy conscious, at all times.......but the global warming alarmists are just heating up themselves.
"To absolutely say"
Science does not deal in "absolutes."
That being said, the scientific consensus is one side of an extremely lopsided "debate," with the other side being almost exclusively made up of people with a political axe to grind or an economic interest in not regulating emissions.
No one is saying we should stifle debate or research into a contrarian perspective. At the same time, to act as if both sides of the "debate" are of equal merit is to misrepresent reality.The fact that you keep hammering on the "scientists predicted an Ice age in the 70's" argument, proves you are here just to jerk chains.
tommy could you point out the consensus 25 years ago. oh wait, there was none.
Reading comprehension 101 - sit anywhere.........where did I say "consensus"? I said "scare".
reading comprehension 102. i know you did not say consensus. therein lay my point. what you call a "scare" was not the consensus that is recognized today. so you compared two things of unequal value. can i make it simpler for you?
No, you're simple enough, thank you.
you got me with that one tommy. i don't know how i can go on.
Ooh, you got yourself there... if you had read Mefirst's post with comprehension, you could see that his/her point was that there was no consensus. Thus, your equivalence was a false one.
Really, the 70s ice age crap is the weakest card in a really weak hand. Are you really trying to stack a couple of magazine articles 30 years ago against hundreds of peer-reviewed studies?
We had mini ice ages in the 1700 and 1800's. Each followed by Global Warming.
Those were caused by fluctuations in sun output. What we are experiencing know, with a 1 degree warming in a century, is historically unprecedented.
Explain how you know it is not sun spots?
I'm not a climatologist. But climatologists have taken that into account and reached a consensus.
Why is Mars heating up?
From all the carbon excesses fueled by the Mars Bars plant.
I dunno. I haven't gone there in a long time. A bit too dusty for my taste.
OK, dont answer. Shows how much you care about the debate on GW.
So let me see if I understand your argument. If natural warming is possible on any planet, during any historical period, that proves that man-made warming is impossible?
No, it proves that man made warming is debatable.
Nobody said it wasn't.
Bull. Most of those posting on here feel there is not debate.
Debate is not one side doing science and the other side pulling stuff out of their butts. That's just comedy.
V-
This is an aphorism worthy of the best philosophers. It should be recorded for posterity!
Great response!
The debate has to end at some point. And when one side doesn't publish any peer-review papers to back up their claims, they effectively didn't even show up to the game.
Everything is "debatable," but it doesn't follow that both conclusions are equally likely.
I just don't understand what you guys think we should use other than science to reach a conclusion.
Val, That's the point, there is no conclusion.......there are too many variables and too many opinions and too many scientists with all sorts of "proof" - there is no way near a consensus that we are responsible for our earth warming.
There is a consensus. The debate should be what we should do about it. The price for inaction is too high.
When a decision has to be made, you gather the best information you can. Doing nothing is a choice that carries risks. Cutting emissions is a choice that carries risks. A rational society would get the best information possible, weigh the potential risks and benefits and make a rational choice.
Exactly. It's about risk assessment. If there was a nuclear bomb next to you that had a 25% probability of going off, wouldn't the inordinate risk require you to do something about it, despite the odds being in your favor? GW is the same way but with even higher probabilities.
I don't understand why you keep posting on this topic when you clearly don't have a grasp of the most basic and primary tenets of scientific study. You're obviously arguing from a position of nearly complete ignorance, so why don't you just say, "I don't believe in science," and then we can all ignore you.
No it doesnt. When Earths orbit gets as eccentric as Mars orbit is THEN that argument will hold water, as of now it doesnt come close
I think "Global" refers to the Earth. That's why that thing in your classroom that looks like the Earth is called a "globe".
Mars has the most eccentric orbit of any of the inner Planets. Did you notice the stories the last four years that Mars was closer to Earth than it has been for hundreds of years? Now Earth is close to the Sun than Mars? Now it doesnt take too much brain power to equate closer to the Sun to warming up. Does that answer your question? The real question is why do the rightwing propaganda parrots keep repeating this one when its so ludicrous?
Stanford (who does the interpretation of NASA's Solar Orbiting observatory) says it ISNT
http://solar-center.stanford.edu/sun-on-earth/glob-warm.html
Solar Variability & Global WarmingSome uncertainty remains about the role of natural variations in causing climate change. Solar variability certainly plays a minor role, but it looks like only a quarter of the recent variations can be attributed to the Sun. At most. During the initial discovery period of global warming, the magnitude of the influence of increased activity on the Sun was not well determined.
Solar irradiance changes have been measured reliably by satellites for only 30 years. These precise observations show changes of a few tenths of a percent that depend on the level of activity in the 11-year solar cycle. Changes over longer periods must be inferred from other sources. Estimates of earlier variations are important for calibrating the climate models. While a component of recent global warming may have been caused by the increased solar activity of the last solar cycle, that component was very small compared to the effects of additional greenhouse gases. According to a NASA Goddard Institute for Space Studies (GISS) press release, "...the solar increases do not have the ability to cause large global temperature increases...greenhouse gases are indeed playing the dominant role..." The Sun is once again less bright as we approach solar minimum, yet global warming continues.
Explain how you know it is not sun spots?
This argument has to be the dumbest one, although the 70's Ice Age ranks pretty close. Sunspots occur in 11 year cycles -this is fact that was discovered and proven through the study of tree rings. What appears as sun spots on the surface of the sun are actually areas that are COOLER than the surrounding area, this is why they appear as spots. If sunspot activity was the cause of a temp increase, this could be documented by comparing the average temperatures that coincided with sunspot activity.
So to that end there should be temperature spikes every 11 years going all the way back through recorded history. This is not the case so please continue smoking whatever it is you are smoking, but stop throwing ridiculous assertions around that you heard on one of your right wing shows as fact when in FACT the sunspot argument is merely folly....fool.
Of and the ice caps on Mars expand and recede normally every year, they have not been receding and stayed that way as ours have.
Oh, calm yourself........I only used it as an example of different theories and points of view from the past.......no need to get all defensive. You liberals are so protective of this whole issue, it's scary!
It is becoming a religion for them. It will be as bad as the Muslim Crusades.
It's religion for the cons. Most don't care about GW 'cause they think they are going to be raptured.
No no, I disagree. Try telling someone you disagree. You should see the look in thier face. Like telling a Christian you do not belive in God. I am 100% serious.
WTF are you talking about?
The preachers of GW are baboozling you like the preachers of religion.
Nope. Try again.
That is how I see it.
The Crusades were Christian.
Those Cruisades where in retaliation of the Muslim invasion years prior. Where you aware of that?
crusade n. From the French croisade, meaning “Marked by the Cross.” It is derived from the Latin word crux (cross).
There were no "Muslim Crusades."
Pick my words apart. it is what a liberal does best to win a argument.
I will. Meanwhile, continue to make chit up. Because the only way a know-nothing conservative can win this debate is to fabricate.
I am glad I have no children who will be stuck in the sorry world you and your kind are preparing.
Words are all we have on here. If you can't write properly, and provide a coherent counter-argument, expect to be picked apart.
You made an erroneous comment about "muslim crusades" and you were righteously taken down for it.
My sympathy for you runneth dry.
The Muslims were the ones with the Crusades? Man, I wish I was home-schooled.
Here is the actual time-line
634—644 The Caliphate of Umar ibn al—Khattab, who is regarded as particularly brutal.
635 Muslim Crusaders besiege and conquer of Damascus
636 Muslim Crusaders defeat Byzantines decisively at Battle of Yarmuk.
637 Muslim Crusaders conquer Iraq at the Battle of al—Qadisiyyah (some date it in 635 or 636)
638 Muslim Crusaders conquer and annex Jerusalem, taking it from the Byzantines.
638—650 Muslim Crusaders conquer Iran, except along Caspian Sea.
639—642 Muslim Crusaders conquer Egypt.
641 Muslim Crusaders control Syria and Palestine.
643—707 Muslim Crusaders conquer North Africa.
644 Caliph Umar is assassinated by a Persian prisoner of war; Uthman ibn Affan is elected third Caliph, who is regarded by many Muslims as gentler than Umar.
644—650 Muslim Crusaders conquer Cyprus, Tripoli in North Africa, and establish Islamic rule in Iran, Afghanistan, and Sind.
656 Caliph Uthman is assassinated by disgruntled Muslim soldiers; Ali ibn Abi Talib, son—in—law and cousin to Muhammad, who married the prophet's daughter Fatima through his first wife Khadija, is set up as Caliph.
656 Battle of the Camel, in which Aisha, Muhammad's wife, leads a rebellion against Ali for not avenging Uthman's assassination. Ali's partisans win.
657 Battle of Siffin between Ali and Muslim governor of Jerusalem, arbitration goes against Ali
661 Murder of Ali by an extremist; Ali's supporters acclaim his son Hasan as next Caliph, but he comes to an agreement with Muawiyyah I and retires to Medina.
661—680 the Caliphate of Muawiyyah I. He founds Umayyid dynasty and moves capital from Medina to Damascus
673—678 Arabs besiege Constantinople, capital of Byzantine Empire
680 Massacre of Hussein (Muhammad's grandson), his family, and his supporters in Karbala, Iraq.
691 Dome of the Rock is completed in Jerusalem, only six decades after Muhammad's death.
705 Abd al—Malik restores Umayyad rule.
710—713 Muslim Crusaders conquer the lower Indus Valley.
711—713 Muslim Crusaders conquer Spain and impose the kingdom of Andalus. This article recounts how Muslims today still grieve over their expulsion 700 years later. They seem to believe that the land belonged to them in the first place.
719 Cordova, Spain, becomes seat of Arab governor
732 The Muslim Crusaders stopped at the Battle of Poitiers; that is, Franks (France) halt Arab advance
749 The Abbasids conquer Kufah and overthrow Umayyids
756 Foundation of Umayyid amirate in Cordova, Spain, setting up an independent kingdom from Abbasids
762 Foundation of Baghdad
785 Foundation of the Great Mosque of Cordova
789 Rise of Idrisid amirs (Muslim Crusaders) in Morocco; foundation of Fez; Christoforos, a Muslim who converted to Christianity, is executed.
Continued next post800 Autonomous Aghlabid dynasty (Muslim Crusaders) in Tunisia
807 Caliph Harun al—Rashid orders the destruction of non—Muslim prayer houses and of the church of Mary Magdalene in Jerusalem
809 Aghlabids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Sardinia, Italy
813 Christians in Palestine are attacked; many flee the country
831 Muslim Crusaders capture Palermo, Italy; raids in Southern Italy
850 Caliph al—Matawakkil orders the destruction of non—Muslim houses of prayer
855 Revolt of the Christians of Hims (Syria)
837—901 Aghlabids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Sicily, raid Corsica, Italy, France
869—883 Revolt of black slaves in Iraq
909 Rise of the Fatimid Caliphate in Tunisia; these Muslim Crusaders occupy Sicily, Sardinia
928—969 Byzantine military revival, they retake old territories, such as Cyprus (964) and Tarsus (969)
937 The Ikhshid, a particularly harsh Muslim ruler, writes to Emperor Romanus, boasting of his control over the holy places
937 The Church of the Resurrection (known as Church of Holy Sepulcher in Latin West) is burned down by Muslims; more churches in Jerusalem are attacked
960 Conversion of Qarakhanid Turks to Islam
966 Anti—Christian riots in Jerusalem
969 Fatimids (Muslim Crusaders) conquer Egypt and found Cairo
c. 970 Seljuks enter conquered Islamic territories from the East
973 Israel and southern Syria are again conquered by the Fatimids
1003 First persecutions by al—Hakim; the Church of St. Mark in Fustat, Egypt, is destroyed
1009 Destruction of the Church of the Resurrection by al—Hakim (see 937)
1012 Beginning of al—Hakim's oppressive decrees against Jews and Christians
1015 Earthquake in Palestine; the dome of the Dome of the Rock collapses
1031 Collapse of Umayyid Caliphate and establishment of 15 minor independent dynasties throughout Muslim Andalus
1048 Reconstruction of the Church of the Resurrection completed
1050 Creation of Almoravid (Muslim Crusaders) movement in Mauretania; Almoravids (aka Murabitun) are coalition of western Saharan Berbers; followers of Islam, focusing on the Quran, the hadith, and Maliki law.
1055 Seljuk Prince Tughrul enters Baghdad, consolidation of the Seljuk Sultanate
1055 Confiscation of property of Church of the Resurrection
1071 Battle of Manzikert, Seljuk Turks (Muslim Crusaders) defeat Byzantines and occupy much of Anatolia
1071 Turks (Muslim Crusaders) invade Palestine
1073 Conquest of Jerusalem by Turks (Muslim Crusaders)
1075 Seljuks (Muslim Crusaders) capture Nicea (Iznik) and make it their capital in Anatolia
1076 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) (see 1050) conquer western Ghana
1085 Toledo is taken back by Christian armies
1086 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) (see 1050) send help to Andalus, Battle of Zallaca
1090—1091 Almoravids (Muslim Crusaders) occupy all of Andalus except Saragossa and Balearic Islands
1094 Byzantine emperor Alexius Comnenus I asks western Christendom for help against Seljuk invasions of his territory; Seljuks are Muslim Turkish family of eastern origins; see 970
1095 Pope Urban II preaches first Crusade; they capture Jerusalem in 1099
Islam...the religion of peace.
If you had the impression that this thread was about the Crusades, or that anyone was asserting that there was only one side fighting, then you may want to check your prescription.
But in this case, again, rather than come up with an arguable, defensible position, you have invented a term ("Muslim Crusaders") completely unknown to modern scholarship, and created straw men that you then proceed to mow down with great excitement. I swear, arguing with you guys is like the Dodgers going up against my nephew's T-ball team... it's a little embarassing sometimes.
Nice link, BTW. I especially liked this part:
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The issue is the integrity of science itself. The cynical cons are trying to reduce it to he said/she said. It's not. There's a scientific method and vetting process that is crucial to process of good science. The overwhelming evidence is for man-made global warming, not the opposite. Those who think the opposition should carry equal weight are tearing at the fabric of science itself. Scientists go where the evidence takes them, not where there's some sort of balance of opinion.
Show me one scientist that will give you a 100% connection between GW and it being Man made. Looking for words like, CERTAIN, POSITIVE. No, Likley caused, Possibly caused by.....
There's no such thing as certainty in science. We're not even certain that the universe isn't just a figment of someone's imagination. Try harder next time.
Nice try. NEXT
So you think science has absolute certainty? That's an insane position to hold.
We have to understand that fundmentalists are spoon fed absolutes. Naturally, when fundies view science (the methodical inquiry of constant doubt) through the lens of religious absolutes they are left fearful of science's lack of authoritarian certitude.
In short, fundies enjoy the comfort of being told what to think, of moral certainty and are afraid of questions that lack unambiguous answers. To them doubt and ambiguity are signs of weakness. To us doubt and ambiguity are the initial steps in the learning process.
Well THAT wasnt even CLOSE to a good try, show yourself out in disgrace
After reading number of your posts, my basic questions to you:
Do you know how science works?
Do you know how scientific theories, hypotheses are framed/derived?
Or how are they accepted in science community?
I doubt you know any of these. Trying to debate about AGW theories without knowing the basic concepts of science is equivalent to an effort to discuss the merit of Shakespeare's works without knowing English alphabets.
Thank you Media Matters another piece. The people who deny Global Warming are only kidding themselves.
Unfortunately, they're also giving cover to our leaders to drag their feet, so they're going more than just kidding themselves....
Can you explain why the ice caps on mars are melting as well.
It's irrelevant.
really, please explain why you feel that way.
Because global warming is occurring on Earth. Mars is, technically, a different planet.
Because it could be the sun affecting BOTH planets. But you seem to close-minded to accept the possibility.
No, it has been studied. The effect of radiative forcing is counted as much, much less significant than greenhouse forcing.
But please, look it up yourself. Don't take anything I say at face value.
Yes I already have, if you had even the slightest scientific knowlege you wouldnt ask such a simplistic question much less pretend it had some kind of relevance.
I thought Science was about debate. It seems most are comfi with what Al says, without really hearring out any other side.
who are most?
I should say, most people I talk to. However, most do not know ANYTHING about it other then what Gore said. I find that to be very Ignorant.
I find most people to be very ignorant, which is why in scientific matters I like to listen to scientists.
You like to listen to one side, and have made that MORE than clear. I find that ignorance.
I would love to read some peer-reviewed research disputing the consensus.
Got any?
Have you read any other opinions?
I am reading yours.
Opinions are not research.
the have you read some research.
There is none.
If you can find some, you'd be doing me a favour.
There's the science side, and the non-science side. Science has more credibility. Sorry Jimmy Joe Bob.
While I would be willing to consider you an EXPERT on ignorance based on the experience of your own life, it doesnt give you amazing mind reading powers so you have NO idea what we know and dont know. Here is a clue. You DONT have amazing mind reading powers, they dont exist.
then, i guess we just go with what the vast majority of scientists say? or do we wait for the peer-reviewed paper from your next door neighbor?
Majority rules you say? Like the majority of America is against gay marriage. Ok, if you say so.
your middle america also thinks the world is 6000 years old. do you?
That was a waist of words.
i knew you wouldn't answer.
It's a lot of fun to debate climatology with someone who can't spell "waste..."
Be nice, Val. The other 5 words were spelled perfectly. 83% is a solid B-.
The other side has no peer-reviewed research to back up their claims. When they do, the scientific community will listen to them. It's as simple as that.
The other side is silenced. Some scientists, called, "Sceptics".... have recieved death threats. You find that to be a debate? What is it that convinced you?
Do the science and have it peer-reviewed. They won't. It's like someone who claims ESP but resists attempts to test the ability in a controlled fashion. Same for ED.
One scientist, a partisan with an axe to grind, claims to have received five threatening emails. Yeah, you're right, it's like freakin' Sicily out there...
Read the link I pasted below a few. It is not just death threats. Some fear losing jobs, funding ect.
Right. Uh huh.
Truthiness rears its ugly head.
The Dixie chicks got death threats for speaking their mind. Deal with it.
OR
They've heard the other side and realized there's no real science going on there, and righteously dismissed them.
You're playing the "why can't we just have the debate" game when there is no debate to be had. It's the same BS game the creationists play too.
No debate you say? Really. SO much for Science then. Sounds more like liberal religion.
In order for there to be a debate, there need to be two equal sides. Debate is not one side doing years of research, publishing papers and having them refereed by experts in the field... and the other side saying "no, it's sunspots."
Science is about research and repeatability. I know it's painful, I know it sounds like the boring parts of high school, but unfortunately it's so.
Yes, and we have yet to hear them stand up and speak. I truley feel the are being silenced. Do you really feel not one scientist would like to stand up and debate?
Debate in science isn't done on a podium. It's done through papers. Papers that are open to review from peers. The deniers won't do that, for a very good reason.
The reason you don't hear about them is because their "science" is so shoddy they can't make it past the first round of elimination.
Put simply, in deference to you, think of it like American Idol.
If you have merit, you get to proceed. If not...there's the door...
The "debate" between climatologists and the global warming skeptics is not a debate between beliefs with equal claims to validity. It is a debate between science and irrationality, and in such a contest irrationality will always be the loser.
Science is not a religion. Because in science only one test really counts: whether your ideas match reality. It doesn't matter how comforting they are, or how profitable, or how many people you can bribe to believe in them. If your ideas cannot stand up to the test of experiment, you're out. As the physicist Richard Feynman said, "You can't fool Nature."
The global warming skeptics are not "silenced," they're ignored, and rightly so. For they haven't provided a shred of testable evidence for any of their claims, to lay against the vast mountain of carefully reasoned, thorough scientific studies that tell us that global warming is real and dangerous.
Until they do, pretending that their claims deserve equal time with theories that have been painstakingly tested against reality is simply wrong.
Sure that is why there is so much JUNK anti Global Warming stuff out there it just isnt peer reviewed.
Just because you say your opponents are "alarmists" does not meant they are, just because you want to frame a scientific debte on your terms does not mean that is the only way to debate. There is debate about climate change, how much is due to CO2, how much is due to methane? What effect do the particulates china and india are spewing out have? (You may be surprised to learn that if all the coal fired generating plants in China were running as clean as the average US plant, global warming would be much worse, the particulates have a cooling effect and are delaying warming) Will the giant ice sheets melt or will they break off into the oceans? How mcuh of the warming is due to long term natural cycles? (although, saying anything on earth is natural now is a misnomer, all natural systems have been altered by humans) What effect if any do variations in the sun have? If you had a scientific education, and if you were doing scientific research of almost any kind, you would understand that unlike Beck, or Rush , before you are allowed to use the microphone you have to earn your chops.
I hope this helps you understand the difference between true science and the psuedo science you refer to in your references.
Yes science is about debate, lets debate whether or not the Earth is round since there is a flat Earth society and no fair pointing out that the SCIENTISTS have a consensus it IS round because there are people out there who say it isnt so that is good enough for me to doubt it.
Here is a good reading about those being silenced.
Simmons added, "Those who want to muzzle scientists should be ashamed of themselves. The scientific process should be about being able to explore unpopular ideas, not conforming scientific views to match a particular governor's point of view."
http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=20814
Maybe they are getting fired for doing a lousy job. Wasting time and money on research that has already been done several times. Do you seriously think that all the thousands of scientists who study the climate, the sun, the earth's core, volcanology, ice caps and on and on are in cahoots and are perpetuating a giant hoax on the rest of us?
Yeah. These nuts are like the holocaust deniers. Or more recently, those who refuse to believe correlation between smoking and disease. Obfuscation by the tobacco industry cost many lives while tried to cast doubt on good science.
heartland seems to be one of those industry funded "non profits" dedicated to showing how warm and fuzzy your average corporation is.
Sounds like a totally impartial source, good find...
WIMA-There are lots of reasons why people don't get research funding. Typically there is some glitch in the system and the money gets put somewhere else. Unless you have some real specifics, you ought to leave that line of “reasoning” alone and concentrate on the science. Most non-scientists do not understand peer review and to them it sounds like some kind of little club you belonged to in high school. It doesn’t work that way – scientists are among the most competitive people on the planet and they get a lot of gratification out of shooting down a competitor’s argument. It can be a brutal process that can tear apart friendships. That is why is so necessary and effective. It is also a way for those of us who are not climatologists to have confidence in what they are saying. I guarantee you by the time these articles saw the light of day, people a lot more knowledgeable about climate science than you and at least as skeptical of the evidence got their shot at it. That fact that there are virtually zero peer reviewed articles opposing GW is very important and shows how deep the consensus is.
<i>Yeah. These nuts are like the holocaust deniers. Or more recently, those who refuse to believe correlation between smoking and disease. Obfuscation by the tobacco industry cost many lives while tried to cast doubt on good science.</i>
This thread is a good example of why I prefer the general term "denialist" to describe such people. Anyone who has ever had experience debating Holocaust deniers, HIV/AIDS deniers, creationists, etc. can discern a very clear pattern in argument tactics. They all aplify relatively minor doubts and ignore the overwhelming evidence that points in one direction, present a handful of phony "experts" to counter the overwhelming mainstream against them and, as you point out, resort to ridiculous conspiracy thoeries when all else fails. We've seen the appearance of all these tactics here.
I don't know if Gore is an exaggerator, but it's ludicrous to worry that the sea will rise 20 feet thousands of years from now.
"[i]f a negative surface mass balance were sustained for millennia, that would lead to virtually complete elimination of the Greenland ice sheet..."
Sustained for millennia, indeed.
FYI...The Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory has the world's most complete collection of global warming data from climate models. The data includes both simulations of past climate and projections of the future climate.The Lab's Program for Climate Model Diagnosis and Intercomparison (PCMDI) archives and organizes the data (called the Coupled Model Intercomparison Project 3 - CMIP3) for the US Department of Energy's Office of Science.The archive was initiated by World Climate Research Programme scientists working on coupled climate modeling in response to a request from the Intergovermental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) to consolidate predictions made for the IPCC's Fourth Assessment Report.The project is about 10 times larger than previous databases for climate model output. The users comprise nearly 900 separate sub-projects on topoics such as African monsoon variability, drought in Australia, hydrology in the Mekon River, Pacific Island climate change detection, Arctic contribution to sea-level rise, and the anthropogenic impact on Antarctic oceanography.CMIP3 continues to register users for a variety of climate science and climate impact assessment projects beyond those reported by the IPCC.Any non-commercial use of the data is welcome. Prospective users should consult the PCMDI's Web page and the Earth System Grid Web portal.The database now includes more than 32 terabytes of output from the latest generation of climate simulation modelhttp://www-pcmdi.llnl.govhttp://www.llnl.gov
I'm still waiting to see some competent science from the other side. If it's true that anthropogenic climate change is some kind of huge conspiracy, you'd think there would be some testable theory that falsifies it. But all they have, all I have ever seen, is argument by assertion from people with an axe to grind and paid off researchers.
I wish we had forever to dick around arguing. Unfortunately, we needed to start making changes a while ago and we're still sitting around like the climate will wait for us to get over our hubris.
As someone way smarter than me once said:
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.”No. Mars is not undergoing global warming. The Mars Global Surveyor detected a decrease in the mass of the South Polar Cap between 1999 and 2005. First, this is a regional (not global) warming localized to the south pole of mars. There is no similar data for any corresponding temperature change at either the north pole or any other part of Mars. Secondly, since a Martian year is 687 days, this represents only 3 data points, which does not equate to the long-term trend we see on Earth. Get it ? It takes longer for Mars to change its postion relative to the sun. Also, we see dramatic peaks and valleys in the yearly temperature data on Earth.
Lastly, it is well know that Mars’ climate is far more volatile than our own, and is quite sensitive to changes in dust storm activity and orbital variations.
Also,This CO2 follows warming . . . well, yes in natural warming it does. That is also what scares a lot of scientists. When the earth's climate laps into and out of ice ages it is due to variations in earth's orbit. The warming and cooling is gradual (hence the alarm at the speed of the current warming). So, when the planet warms more CO2 is released: plants, oceans, so on and son.Again C02 is not the catalyst but its release is part of positive feed back loop that increases the warming. We are observing this now, but instead of an orbital change being the catalysts it is the mass amounts of C02 being released by burning fossil fuels. A historic anomaly. C02 has never been released into the atmosphere at this rate, instead, over million's of years, it has been slowly sequestered as rooting vegetation is trapped under ground, turned to coal, and rotting sea animals are turned into oil.All that millions of years of C02 is going to be released in a short span of 200-300 years, whatya thinks gonna happen?
Explain how you know it is not sun spots?
This argument has to be the dumbest one, although the 70's Ice Age ranks pretty close. Sunspots occur in 11 year cycles -this is fact that was discovered and proven through the study of tree rings. What appears as sun spots on the surface of the sun are actually areas that are COOLER than the surrounding area, this is why they appear as spots. If sunspot activity was the cause of a temp increase, this could be documented by comparing the average temperatures that coincided with sunspot activity.
So to that end there should be temperature spikes every 11 years going all the way back through recorded history. This is not the case so please continue smoking whatever it is you are smoking, but stop throwing ridiculous assertions around that you heard on one of your right wing shows as fact when in FACT the sunspot argument is merely folly....fool.
Of and the ice caps on Mars expand and recede normally every year, they have not been receding and stayed that way as ours have.
"but it's ludicrous to worry that the sea will rise 20 feet thousands of years from now." So, hmmmm . . . so cities that have been around more a than a millennia are now going to be potentially wiped out in the next millennia; and evidently it is ludicrous to worry about it? Maybe, if thats the way you think about it. But try the next hundred years, or what if the ice collapses rapidly like the shelf in Antarctica did last year?
Perhaps one of our MIT participants on this board can tell us how much consideration was given to measuring devices (1850 vs. 1900 vs. 2000 etc.) and their particular accuracy when compared to readings we take today with very sophisticated equipment. I've looked in some reports and don't see any methodology to correct for accuracy of earlier measurement readings/devices. I can't imagine that the measurements we make today can compare in accuracy with those made 150 and 200 years ago. Please help clarify. Jean Pierre
I would like to invoke the Cheney 1% rule.
If there is a 1% chance that Global warming is real, then as with Saddam, we have a responsibility to tackle it. (Hopefully better executed than dealing with Saddam)
=my2c
BC
i love it when you post myths the right brings up....and then post the truth right after it....please do more of it.....
Remember this just a short time ago?
UN downgrades man's impact on the climateRichard Gray, Science Correspondent, Sunday Telegraph
Last Updated: 1:37am GMT 11/12/2006<!--NO VIEW-->
Mankind has had less effect on global warming than previously supposed, a United Nations report on climate change will claim next year.
The UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change says there can be little doubt that humans are responsible for warming the planet, but the organisation has reduced its overall estimate of this effect by 25 per cent.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/12/10/nclimate10.xml
So then your point is that we are RIGHT, that man HAS contributed to Global Warming but not quite as much as has been advertised? OK. I am willing to go with that.
Yes, they used different methodology to estimate future warming, and so came up with different numbers.
That's why I prefer science to bloviation as a way of judging the potential risk of future events - science corrects itself, while BS is self-prepetuating.
But I am glad to see Leather now accepts that warming is human-caused... maybe now we can debate what should be done about it, rather than splashing around in the baby pool of denial.