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Misleading NY Times article provides fodder for conservatives to attack Gore on global warming

March 26, 2007 7:51 pm ET

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Numerous media figures and conservatives have seized on The New York Times' March 13 article on global warming -- which, as Media Matters for America and others have noted, includes misleading characterizations, a false comparison, and misrepresentations of Gore's position -- to attack Gore.

As Media Matters for America repeatedly noted, the Times article relied heavily on global warming skeptics with histories of promoting misinformation on the issue. While most skeptics cited in the article were identified as such, the Times identified geology professor Don J. Easterbrook as a "rank-and-file" scientist, when, in fact, Easterbrook is a global warming skeptic who has predicted global cooling between 2065 and 2100 and denies that human activity has contributed to global warming over the past century.

The article also made misleading claims regarding Gore's statements about the effects of global warming, which have since been advanced by various conservative news outlets and media figures. For instance, many conservatives have repeated the article's suggestion that Gore's assertions about rising sea levels are contradicted by the International Panel on Climate Control's (IPCC) as evidence that Gore is engaging in "wild exaggerations." Most recently, on the March 24 edition of Fox News' The Beltway Boys, co-host and Weekly Standard executive editor Fred Barnes, citing the Times article, asserted that "scientists are increasingly embarrassed by the wild exaggerations of Al Gore, where he says ... the sea level will rise 20 feet, and the U.N. [United Nations] group that's looked into this says it'll be 23 inches."

But as Media Matters for America has repeatedly noted (here, here, here, here, and here), the Times article was engaging in a false comparison. In the documentary An Inconvenient Truth (Paramount Classics, 2006), Gore stated that that if the West Antarctic ice shelf were to either melt entirely or fall into the ocean "sea level worldwide would go up 20 feet. In the book associated with the documentary, An Inconvenient Truth (Rodale Books, May 2006), Gore made the same claim, adding that "the West Antarctic ice shelf is virtually identical in size and mass to the Greenland ice dome, which also would raise sea levels worldwide by 20 feet if it melted or broke up and slipped into the sea." The IPCC estimates, however, did not address how the sudden collapse of the West Antarctic ice shelf or the Greenland ice dome would affect sea levels. Rather, the figures offered by the IPCC pertained to rising sea levels as they are affected by "[c]ontinued greenhouse gas emissions at or above current rates." A chart projecting the rise of sea levels in six different scenarios showed that the "the best estimate for the high scenario," which defined the "likely range" of temperature increases over the next century to be from "2.4°C to 6.4°C," would result in an increase in sea levels between 0.26 meters and 0.59 meters, which converts to a range of 10.24 to 23.23 inches. The IPCC further claimed that "[c]ontraction of the Greenland ice sheet is projected to continue to contribute to sea level rise after 2100" and that "[i]f a negative surface mass balance were sustained for millennia, that would lead to virtually complete elimination of the Greenland ice sheet and a resulting contribution to sea level rise of about 7 m," which is equivalent to approximately 23 feet. Additionally, as blogger Bob Somerby noted in a March 19 Daily Howler posting, global warming expert James Hansen asserted during a July 2006 Discovery Channel special that the timeframe in which the rise in sea level Gore referenced "could be 50 years from now, could be 100 years from now, but it's not 1,000 years from now."

Nonetheless, numerous media figures have used this false comparison and other elements from the March 13 Times article to attack Gore:

  • On the March 24 edition of The Beltway Boys, Barnes also claimed "there is no scientific consensus on global warming." In fact, as Media Matters has documented, the vast majority of climate scientists and organizations agree that human activity contributes to global warming.
  • In his March 26 column, U.S. News & World Report senior writer Michael Barone asserted that "[e]ven The New York Times bridles" at Gore's global warming claims. Barone continued: "After Gore won the Academy Award for his film on climate change, the Times printed an article in which respected scientists -- not Republicans, not on oil company payrolls -- charged that Gore has vastly exaggerated the likelihood of catastrophic effects." In fact, as Media Matters has noted (here and here), at least three of the scientists cited in the Times article have connections to the oil industry.

    Barone also repeated the Times' faulty sea level comparison to claim that the "fine print of even the scientific reports that Gore likes to cite" shows that Gore is "vastly exaggerat[ing]" the threat of global warming.
  • In a March 21National Review op-ed, American Enterprise Institute fellow Steven F. Hayward wrote that "a backlash in the scientific community has begun" against Gore. Hayward continued, "Last week, New York Times veteran science reporter William Broad filed a devastating article about scientists who are 'alarmed' at Gore's alarmism." Hayward went on to cite the faulty sea level comparison and quote heavily from the Times article.
  • In his March 22 syndicated column, Jay Ambrose described as "preposterous" what he said was "Gore's unscientific, alarmist, inane claim in his movie, 'An Inconvenient Truth,' that sea levels will zoom upward by 20 feet over the next century if we don't heed his remedies." He further described Gore as "this king of ballyhoo" who has nothing more "to contribute to the warming debate than fallacies and exaggeration." In fact, contrary to Ambrose's assertion, even the Times article noted that Gore "cit[ed] no particular time frame" while discussing the consequences of potential sea level increases. Ambrose asserted: "The scientific consensus as expressed in the recent U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change is that the rise will not be 20 feet by 2101, or 15 or 10 or 5. It likely won't even be 20 inches, which is to say, we clever human beings will be able to adapt." Ambrose further wrote: "If you think maybe that's it -- that the movie's errors end there -- you haven't read a recent New York Times story in which rank-and-file scientists express concern that the movie confuses extreme speculation with certainty or learned how major think tanks, buttressing their criticisms with documentation, have had at the Oscar-winning movie and companion book with a vengeance."
  • While interviewing Sen. James Inhofe (R-OK) on the March 22 edition of Fox News' Fox & Friends, co-host Gretchen Carlson stated that "The New York Times, of all newspapers, the other day said in one of their articles that scientists argued that some of Gore's central points are exaggerated and erroneous," and asked Inhofe, "Why the change of tide?" Inhofe replied: "His best friends are The New York Times, and to have them say that you're exaggerating so much you're hurting your own cause is just incredible. And that's -- I couldn't believe it when I read that in The New York Times." Inhofe also claimed that Gore's "credibility" is "going down," and concluded: "We're going to win this one."
  • A March 21 Washington Times editorial proposed this question of Gore: "Can you explain why the New York Times would devote a front-page story to the problematic factual inconsistencies and exaggerations of 'An Inconvenient Truth'?" The editorial added: "It must be the vast right-wing conspiracy."
  • As Media Matters has noted, on the March 21 edition of Fox News' The Big Story, Cato Institute senior fellow Patrick Michaels used the false sea level comparison as the basis for characterizing Gore's position as "beyond shrill" and "thermonuclear."
  • In his March 19 Philadelphia Inquirer column, Jonathan Last referred to Gore's "promiscuous doomsaying" and stated: "[I]t's no surprise that some scientists have begun to quietly complain about Gore. A number of them went on record with their complaints to the New York Times last week." Last went on to cite the false sea level comparison. He also wrote that Gore is "[e]ver apocalyptic" in his global warming predictions, and, as proof, cited Easterbrook's claim in the Times article "that within the last 15,000 years there have been shifts up to '20 times greater than the warming in the past century.'"
  • In this March 19 column, Sun-Sentinel (Fort Lauderdale, Florida) TV/radio writer Tom Jicha cited the Times article and revived several other falsehoods to smear Gore. Jicha wrote that "Mr. 'I Invented the Internet' is renowned for his exaggerations. He has been using the microphones provided him by the mainstream media to predict, among other things, that global warming will cause ocean levels to rise 20 feet." Jicha also cited the Times article to claim that Gore "lie[s]": "An article in The New York Times last week reported, 'Part of [Gore's] scientific audience is uneasy. In talks, articles and blog entries that have appeared since his film and accompanying book came out last year, these scientists argue that some of Mr. Gore's central points are exaggerated and erroneous. They are alarmed, some say, at what they call his alarmism.'"

    As Media Matters has repeatedly noted, the claim that Gore said he invented the Internet -- which media figures repeated incessantly during the 2000 presidential race -- is patently false.
  • As Media Matters has previously noted, in his March 19 Wall Street Journal column John Fund replicated misinformation from the Times article -- including the false sea levels comparison -- to accuse Gore of "environmental exaggerations and hypocrisy."
  • A March 18 Boston Herald editorial stated: "Finally, even some scientists well disposed to Al Gore are beginning to call spades spades about his scaremongering documentary that won an Academy Award, 'An Inconvenient Truth.' '' The editorial quoted extensively from the Times article. After noting the faulty sea level claim, the editorial stated: "Anybody interested in following up this discrepancy is likely to note that the panel's forecasts largely have been toned down slightly from the previous report five years ago."
  • Previewing the Times article, a March 14 Investors Business Daily editorial stated that the newspaper "cautiously threw some cold water on Gore's overheated rhetoric" after "seeing a chance the debate could shift in favor of alternative sources for recent warming." The editorial reported that the Times article "opened the possibility that some of his central claims are 'exaggerated and erroneous,' and deigned to recognize scientists who have challenged him."

The Times article has also been cited by several Republican members of Congress in their criticism of Gore:

  • During the March 21 Senate Environment and Public Works Committee hearing on global warming, Inhofe twice cited the Times article. In his opening statements, Inhofe asserted: "Even The New York Times ... last week had an article, Mr. Vice-President, that said that you've been so extreme in some of your expressions that you're losing some of your own people. Now given that, it's no wonder that you've turned down some of the opportunities people have asked for, for debates."
  • Similarly, during the March 21 joint hearing of the House Energy and Commerce Subcommittee on Energy and Air Quality and the House Science and Technology Subcommittee on Energy and Environment, Rep. Joe Barton (R-TX) accused Gore of being "totally wrong" about global warming and stated to Gore: "You have also asserted that global warming is going to cause sea levels to rise by over 20 feet -- 20 feet. The recent IPCC report indicates a rise of, at most, 23 inches -- inches. Twelve inches equals a foot."
  • Barton also falsely claimed, that the "IPCC report does not support" Gore's claim "that there will be more and stronger hurricanes because of global warming." The March 13 Times article had also falsely suggested Gore had claimed that global warming would lead to a higher frequency of hurricanes. In fact, as Media Matters noted, Gore attributed the idea that global warming will contribute to an increase in hurricane activity to "some scientists" and wrote in his book "[t]here is less agreement among scientists about the relationship between the total number of hurricanes each year and global warming." Gore also noted in the update to his film that "[t]here is no scientific consensus linking the absolute number of hurricanes to global warming." Further, the recent IPCC report appeared to agree with Gore's assessment, concluding that "[b]ased on a range of models, it is likely that future tropical cyclones (typhoons and hurricanes) will become more intense, with larger peak wind speeds and more heavy precipitation associated with ongoing increases of tropical SSTs [sea surface temperatures]." [Emphasis in original.]

From the IPCC report:

Based on a range of models, it is likely that future tropical cyclones (typhoons and hurricanes) will become more intense, with larger peak wind speeds and more heavy precipitation associated with ongoing increases of tropical SSTs. There is less confidence in projections of a global decrease in numbers of tropical cyclones. The apparent increase in the proportion of very intense storms since 1970 in some regions is much larger than simulated by current models for that period.

From the March 24 edition of Fox News' Beltway Boys:

BARNES: All this is all the more reason why Bush should not throw [Attorney General] Alberto Gonzales overboard -- to fire him. I mean, it would only make Democrats foam at the mouth even more -- their bloodlust would be so excited for more kills -- and to reward them for concocting an entirely bogus scandal like this AG scandal and then let them have scalps -- that would be a huge mistake by the White House.

Look, these investigations are almost purely partisan; and they're not really investigations, they're show trials. They're not -- they're not truth-seeking, and -- you know, I like -- and I thank you for putting the quotes around "oversight," because that's exactly what it is.

Look, if they were truth-seeking about global warming, they wouldn't bring in Al Gore to testify, as he did on Wednesday. I mean, that's -- when you bring in Al Gore, that's an adventure in hyperbole, because he indulges in so much of it. Here's a bite from when he testified on Wednesday. Watch.

GORE [video clip]: The planet has a fever. If your baby has a fever, you go to the doctor. If the doctor says you need to intervene here, you don't say, "Well, I read a science fiction novel that tells me it's not a problem." If the crib's on fire, you don't speculate that the baby is flame retardant. You take action. The planet has a fever.

BARNES: There's a man who has a fever, that's for sure. Look, it is clear now to me that there is no scientific consensus on global warming, except for one thing: We know the temperature in the globe increased by 1 degree over the last 100 years. But -- and scientists are increasingly embarrassed by the wild exaggerations of Al Gore, where he says we're going to get a -- the sea level will rise 20 feet, and the U.N. group that's looked into this says it'll be 23 inches. You'll have to admit, there's a significant difference there.

And I think you're going to increasingly see -- well, we have seen, in that New York Times story, scientists increasingly ready to go public to repudiate Al Gore. And yet, you know, you find some Al Gore apologist like yourself, Mort.

MORTON M. KONDRACKE (Roll Call executive editor): Well, I'm not a full Al Gore apologist. But -- but look, there is --

BARNES: Thank goodness for that.

KONDRACKE: Look, you're just dead wrong on whether -- wait a minute. There is a scientific consensus that -- and even the U.N. report indicated it -- that the globe -- the world is warming, and that mankind is very likely responsible for it. In fact, that --

BARNES: There's not a consensus on that.

KONDRACKE: The U.N. -- wait a minute. The U.N. commission said that there's practically no question any more about that point. Now they -- now there is a question about whether Gore is exaggerating the consequences of all this, as you say, whether the sea is going to rise 23 feet, or 12 inches, and it obviously makes a difference.

And there's also -- and I think Gore's remedies for this, namely to shut down the carbon economy in the West, when the -- when countries in the underdeveloped world are not ready to do that, is the right answer or is even a feasible answer. But this is a subject that deserves serious, programmatic attention, instead of this ideological combat that it's getting right now.

BARNES: And it's provoked by Al Gore.

KONDRACKE: Well -- and --

BARNES: I'd still like these global-warming people to explain why -- why if it -- if mankind caused it to increase 1 degree over the last 100 years -- it increased 1 degree over many centuries many earlier -- what was it? Heavy breathing by dinosaurs? Mankind wasn't around.

Mort, I know you can't explain that, and I don't expect you to, but Democrats have become obsessed, as I think you'll agree, with hunting for scalps and passing anti-war resolutions -- I mean, this is all they do -- allowing Republicans, to some extent -- I don't want to over -- I don't want to exaggerate this -- to some extent to step in and take up serious issues.

From the March 22 edition of Fox News' Fox & Friends:

CARLSON: You know what I find amazing is that, a couple of weeks ago, we were talking about some people who are on the other side of the fence, like yourself, were receiving death threats, some of these scientists who were scared to continue saying what they thought, and yet The New York Times, of all newspapers, the other day said in one of their articles that scientists argued that some of Gore's central points are exaggerated and erroneous. Why the change of tide?

INHOFE: Gretchen, we talked about that yesterday. His best friends are The New York Times, and to have them say that you're exaggerating so much you're hurting your own cause is just incredible. And that's -- I couldn't believe it when I read that in The New York Times.

And I think that's true. When he started talking about this is worse than World War II and all these extreme things, I think his credibility's going down. I sense this. I see the scientists changing, and you know, this thing -- we're going to win this one.

Expand All Expand 1st Level Collapse All Add Comment
    • Author by mefirst (March 26, 2007 8:08 pm ET)
         

      this is exactly what one could have predicted. see, folks, even the liberal new york times says gore is lying. the paper issued a mea culpa for their cheerleading and propaganda leading us into the war. and those articles, like this one, were used in papers all over the country. 

      Report Abuse
      • Author by valentinian (March 26, 2007 8:15 pm ET)
           

        Mm-hm. I do believe they have officially changed the name on the masthead to Even the Liberal New York Times.

        Report Abuse
      • Author by dangrady (March 27, 2007 11:05 am ET)
           

        SAVE DEMOCRACY, VOTE FOR A DEMOCRAT!!

        Hurry!! Get your kids, they will now witness the demise of the last of the Republican Punditry Handmaidens of Neo-Con in their final hours before EXTINCTION! That's right, see our era's version of Dinosaurs, Pea size brain and all!

        Barnes & Kondracke, the men whom are said to be authorities in public policy, and politics have died by their own hand, or voices long ago, and just don't know it!! Mark the event well, as we will soon be welcoming rational, objective, intelligent comment when they are gone.

        Happy Thoughts is the return of the Fairness Doctrine!;

        Dan Grady

        Report Abuse
    • Author by Kaleun (March 26, 2007 8:39 pm ET)
         

      Stay strong, Al! They're all just jealous because you have facts and they don't. They only have "truth", as Stephen Colbert would call it.

      Report Abuse
    • Author by crimson2 (March 26, 2007 9:16 pm ET)
         

      "BARNES I'd still like these global-warming people to explain why -- why if it -- if mankind caused it to increase 1 degree over the last 100 years -- it increased 1 degree over many centuries many earlier -- what was it? Heavy breathing by dinosaurs?" I see this argument all the time, but it doesn't make any sense. No one denies that natural variability has occured in the past. Many things can cause warming. A good analogy would be a defense attorney who says "My client couldn't have murdered the victim. The victim's great-grandmother died in 1950 and my client wasn't around then." It would be funny if it weren't so sad.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by jscott (March 27, 2007 10:15 am ET)
           

        They don't understand the meaning of the term "tipping point".  The first drop of water in a bucket does not constitute a threat of overflowing, nor does the second.  As the drops continue to accumulate, however, they represent a serious threat. 

         Just because there has been incremental warming in the past doesn't mitigate the threat of future incremental increases.  Indeed, the ACCUMULATION is the problem.  Additionally, future increases in CO2, whether ours or other nations', exacerbate the problem exponentially. 

        We simply CANNOT sit back and allow this problem to spin out of control.  We MUST provide leadership to the rest of the world.  We represent something like 10% of the world's population but produce more than a third of the world's waste and pollution.  If other industrialized nations see no concern on the part of the Americans, why should they care? 

        It's time to get our heads out of the sand, or in Fred Barnes' case, his a$$.

        Report Abuse
    • Author by eweston8542983 (March 26, 2007 9:53 pm ET)
         

      I'm a little suspect of any infomation based on dinosaurs breathing many centuries ago. There's a list of scientists on this item, ask a couple.

      The pathology of denial on this issue is startling. I'm guessing a fair amount of fear."I'll lose what comfort I have in life, to If its true it'll be a life of unending pain we're all facing, but I can't say that." We are an intelligent and pragmatic nation. We have faced problems and delt with them. There are ways of reducing co2 and other polutents that we can easily sustain. And on the whole I'd a soon screw with our planet's atmosphere as little as possible. Life is fully dangerous as it is. Thank you I'll swallow the "Biggest con in the world" Just tell me whats the competition. The threat of Iraq, Unions,The republican's dedication to the middle class?

      Report Abuse
      • Author by neondesert (March 26, 2007 10:44 pm ET)
           

        All you have to do to see why the righties are so adamant about being correct on global warming is to take a look at the last 6 years. Heck, throw in the prior 8 while you're at it. It's such a humiliating string of wrongs that they're starting to panic, and getting to the point where they might as well go all-in, even when they don't have a hand worth the ante. Newt, Delay, Contract on America, Bush and Dick, Iraq, Schiavo, wire-tapping, torture, rendition, Gonzales, Myers, Powell, Condi, Gonzales, Scooter, "the Dukester", Abramhoff, Kenny boy,... Too bad, they'll end up being wrong on this one, too.

        Report Abuse
      • Author by redking75687 (March 26, 2007 11:04 pm ET)
           

        If we're an intelligent and pragmatic nation, why do we put Democrats and Republicans into power time and time again, when both refuse to regulate our food and water and drugs and corporate abuses?

        We had two chances to put a known consumer rights activist into the White House and we went with men who have allowed corporations to ride roughshod over our population. That's not intelligent or pragmatic.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by scooter (March 27, 2007 12:07 am ET)
             

          Exactly! Just exactly. When will there be enough smart voters to turn this crap around?

          Report Abuse
          • Author by redking75687 (March 27, 2007 12:31 pm ET)
               

            Luckily, more of us are becoming aware of the realities, thanks to the Internet alternative to the corporate media. But will it be enough, will it be in time? I doubt it. Personally, I think the near future of the US looks pretty bleak. The poisoners are in charge and life expectancy is aleady dropping. Deaths from improperly regulated drugs is rising. Workplace safety is deteriorating. Health care costs rising so fast that soon the common worker will be bankrupted by an emergency room visit. All the Democrats and Republicans can offer is war crimes and more war crimes, using money we need here at home to fix the problems. It don't look good.

            Report Abuse
        • Author by eweston8542983 (March 27, 2007 8:08 am ET)
             

          A large part of what we do and what we think we can do, comes from our leaders. A large number of us thought that our current leaders were good. We got sold a bag of trash, rich trash mind you, but trash. How that happenned is a long and ugly story. Which I don't have a spare week or so to explain. The information is out there find it.

          Report Abuse
    • Author by roundhouse (March 26, 2007 9:59 pm ET)
         

      Find your opponents greatest strength then with great volume repeatedly, emphatically distort and misrepresent it, this has become the classic conservative strategy.

      They should be scared, too. Healthy countrysides and clean air is a concern that resonates with everybody, especially rural conservatives.

      Their tell is encapsulated in that last line, "--we're going to win this one." These anti-environment, scorched-earth hacks are concerned only with maintaining republican rule. Health be damned, these guys are going to win control.

      Conservative leadership is about rule. Conervatives fear liberal leadership because liberal leadership is about representation. They fear the voices of Americans being represented on the environment.

      Report Abuse
      • Author by lemoc (March 27, 2007 12:35 am ET)
           

        Roundhouse, you're oversimplifying an issue.  In their zealousness to satisfy a large Green contingent, Liberals make mistakes.

        To illustrate: Clinton's trip to Portland, Oregon shortly after being elected, with the objective of solving the impasse on National Forest timber issues.  Impasse meaning NOTHING in a Forest Service Timber Contract could please a Green, and the available appeal process put existing and future timber management contracts in indefinite limbo,an obvious crisis.

        Clinton meant well, but was woefully uninformed, and beholden to Greens (understandable enough--They voted for him).  Clinton, I think, genuinely thought he could lead a compromise, pleasing Greens while arriving at a stable, at least predictable timber management policy.

        The outcome:  disaster for the Forest Service management policy, message sent to the Western timber industry that it would cease to exist other than on private ownerships, except for some limited entry for what amounts to a gardening excercise around the fringes of National Forests, to placate the Greens; he couldn't get what he sincerely wanted. 

        800-plus sawmills in 12 Western timber-producing states are now reduced to about 250, depending on what week it is.  Federal AND private stands are now sometimes too far from a sawmill for economically feasible management.  Forest fuels accumulate with no management (even where management is easily feasible), and we have now mega-fires instead of management and what would deliver building products into the market, to increase supply, benefitting consumers.  The resultant shortfall is made up in imports from foreign countries, some with unsound forestry practices, some with absolutely zero operations that we could classify as Best Management Practices.

        I give Clinton credit for wanting compromise and believing he could make it happen, but it turned out opposite.

         

        Report Abuse
        • Author by jscott (March 27, 2007 9:58 am ET)
             

          So NOW Clinton is responsible for forest fires?

          Report Abuse
          • Author by NGOfficer (March 27, 2007 10:30 am ET)
               

            What lemoc fails to tell you is that the mills in the northwest were shut down not due to lack of access to national forests, but for various other market related reasons

            http://www.kettlerange.org/powermillreport.htm

            enjoy

            Report Abuse
            • Author by mefirst (March 27, 2007 10:40 am ET)
                 

              sounds like market conditions to me. an oversupply of timber and falling prices.

              Report Abuse
              • Author by NGOfficer (March 27, 2007 10:45 am ET)
                   

                the initial reason I looked this info up was that one day I was watching C-Span and some Repub Sen or Rep (I can't remember which) was actually reciting the full list of mills that were supposedly shut down due to Clinton's policy on logging in national forests

                Report Abuse
                • Author by lemoc (March 27, 2007 11:46 am ET)
                     

                  NG--An excellent article.  No significant conflict with with what I was saying,  focusing primarily on present market conditions for ongoing shutdowns, and the logistics faced by mills at this time. The Prof made reference to the fact that "we in the NW are used to industrial firms rersponding to oversupply by temporary cutbacks and shutdowns....used to the roller coaster of international commodity prices...", but 'that we seem now to be in a new paradigm. 

                  We are.  The whole nature of the Western U.S. lumber industry has changed now, with Federal harvests (management) being virtually eliminated.  Federal timber prices, with an appraisal/bid process tied to market rates, once adjusted as low as necessary to sell the contract, and got bid to the moon when the market was up.  There are billions of board feet of Federal Timber close to where mills USED to be, but once out of management status, the mills left.  Timber stands are NOW significantly more distant and remote for existing plants.

                  Imports surged mightily over the past ten years, in response to our shorter supply domestically, and long-term forecasts would seem to encourage additional shutdowns.  We now import 1x4 from Scandanavia and 2x4 from Germany and Austria, Pine molding and shop stock from Chile, Brazil, Fiji, etc.  When our pines got in such short supply, the Radiata Pines from the tropics made their entrance into our markets and are now entrenched (not necessarily a bad thing).  Meantime, the question is:  do we want or need forest management? 

                  JSCOTT--no point in blaming any person(s) for the megafires.  Question is whether there is an alternative.

                  Report Abuse
        • Author by bkboase3653 (March 27, 2007 11:43 am ET)
             

          Lemoc - you do well reciting timber industry BS. There were/are many other variables involved...doesn't sound like you have visited many national and state forests in Wash. - still clearcutting. But, it is easier to just blame it on Clinton.

           As I have said before..Fred Barnes makes Mariah Carey look like a genius.

          Report Abuse
          • Author by lemoc (March 27, 2007 12:05 pm ET)
               

            BS BOASE--the chances that you will ever get your urban shut-in a$$ to even a mere fraction of the National Forests I am familiar with is -0-.

            Your ignorance re: forest silviculture is evident.  You got a Fern Gully vaccination in our educational system and media climate, and you're happy with it.  You drive up the Columbia Gorge or places like it, remarking about how this place or that "should never be cut", not realizing it was clearcut  four or five times in the past, and regenerated on its own BEFORE we developed good forestry with restocking requirements.

            In the Douglas Fir stands you are talking about, clearcutting is often a sound silvicultural approach for overall health of the stand and maximized regeneration.  Other silvicultural approaches are not even noticed by you, because you're so Pavlovian re: "clearcuts".

             

            Report Abuse
            • Author by valentinian (March 27, 2007 2:05 pm ET)
                 

              Lemoc, have you even met bkboase3653? Why the necessity to be so ad hominem in your response?

              Report Abuse
              • Author by lemoc (March 27, 2007 4:10 pm ET)
                   

                Hi Val...

                Musta been something about his/her opening sentence.

                Report Abuse
    • Author by Buzzramjet (March 27, 2007 1:37 am ET)
         

      Lemoc,  got any links to that info? I've been doing a little surfing on the internets through all the tubes and everything BUT I haven't quite been able to find anything to back that claim.

       As for the NYT, one can tell they are being bribed and bribed heavily to start slanting the news against Gore. Can't let anything get in the war of profits. 

      Report Abuse
      • Author by lemoc (March 28, 2007 6:21 pm ET)
           

        Sorry for not responding to your request yet, Buzz. 

        The lumber/timber industry is populated by independent people (except for a few publicly-owned BIGS) who look at each other as business enemies, and over the years haven't done well at getting organized enough to tell their story: letting the public know the good side of forestry, that it is an evolving science striving for good stewardship, comprehensive forestry codes are in effect with penalties/prosecution for violations, etc.

        They didn't get organized in time.  Sierra Club, et al WAS organized, told one side of the story, and now our National Forests are just building fuel and burning.

        Report Abuse
    • Author by PaulLev (March 27, 2007 2:51 am ET)
         

      Excellent piece - it's a real shame, but I guess not entirely surprising, to see the New York Times in the same boat as the Republican talking-points hounds who have been baying at Gore in direct proportion to the increase in his popularity .... Republican pap about Al Gore and the Internet

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    • Author by Danelaw (March 27, 2007 5:39 am ET)
         

      New York Times also forgot to check whether Lomborg really is a statistician. He is not. He is a political scientist. I know, because I studied at the same place as him, and know him quite well. He just thinks statsistician sounds more objective, so why not call yourself a statistician. He has almost no formal training in stats.

      In his first Danish language book, he called the greenhouse effect "a myth". He wrote that "the greenhouse effect is still very tenuous (...) and doesn't consitute a serious problem for our future" (my translation).

      In his 2001-book in English The Skeptical Environmentalist he reluctantly accepts that global warming is real, but does what he can to discredit the IPCCs use of models to explain changes  in temperature citing their own graphs (p. 267) which, if you look them up, rather precisely explain changes in temperature occuring during the past 100 years. Natural and anthropogenic factors combined.

      Now he accepts it is real and a problem, but still not a big one.  

      He has a litany of half-truths and selective quoting behind him. For a huge list of them see www.lomborg-errors.dk

       

      Report Abuse
    • Author by b5fan (March 27, 2007 8:51 am ET)
         

      There is 'no concensus' that the earth revolves around the sun, but that doesn't mean that it is not true.

      The only reason we are having this debate is because the pro-polution people have hundreds of millions of dollars to make them look like they know what they are talking about.

      Report Abuse
    • Author by Cartoon Messiah (March 27, 2007 9:29 am ET)
         

      Republican Party Strategy on Global Warming:

      1 – Deny the existence of global warming.

      2 – Blame global warming on the Chinese.

      3 – Deny the existence of global warming.

      4 – Blame global warming on bovine flatulence.

      5 – Dis Al Gore’s movie.

      6 – Deny the existence of global warming.

      7 – Maintain that even if global warming exists, it is not caused by human activity.

      8 – Have energy industry lobbyists publicly refute the existence of global warming.

      9 – Blame the American consumer for being addicted to oil.

      10 – Claim that nuclear power is a solution to global warming.

      11 – Deny Iran nuclear power.

      12 – Deny the existence of Global Warming.

      Report Abuse
    • Author by elephty (March 27, 2007 10:32 am ET)
         

      The corporatocracy with its lackey and sycophant careerists in politics and the news media are working overtime to bury the warnings of the majority of scientists, and its most visible public speaker, Al Gore, because they fear the concepts of global warming and sustainability that do not allow an economic model that includes reckless irresponsibility, and does not fit an economic model of ever-expanding markets. As long as it is future generations that will have to pay the price for the lack of seriousness and sacrifice necessary today, they are fine with it. The problem with this choice, of course, is that it chooses suicide for those too young to be able to vote or have a say about the present generation's greed and recalcitrance. Oh well, if we close our eyes and wish hard enough "maybe" the problem will go away. We don't have to worry though, because the news media and politicians will make it all go away for us with the magic of propaganda.

      Report Abuse
    • Author by cb (March 27, 2007 11:20 am ET)
         

      Scientists claim that mankind is responsible for between 4% and 10% of the total c02 released into the atmosphere.  That leaves 90% to 96% of c02 released to be caused by other natural events…volcanoes and other gas released naturally from the Earth, methane from decomposing vegetables, animal feces, etc.  So if we take the high side, 10% caused by human activity, and say that 25% of that is caused by the United States, 1% – 2.5%, please tell me how we are going to save the planet from global warming when we only have control over 1% – 2.5% of the thing that is causing it while 90% - 96% of what is causing it is occurring naturally?  

      Report Abuse
      • Author by AmericanMutt (March 27, 2007 11:34 am ET)
           

        by not contributing that extra 10% the environment is not equipped to handle? Gosh who woulda thunk it was so easy! In any case thanks for making it clear you have no clue what you are talking about.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by cb (March 27, 2007 11:44 am ET)
             

          I forgot to mention that more than half of the measly 1% - 2.5% c02 emissions caused by the United States includes breathing by humans.  Since I believe that even you would conclude that breathing is a necessary evil, .5% to 1.5% is very little control over something as naturally uncontrollable as the climate on Earth and is certainly not worth wrecking the economy of the United States over.

          Report Abuse
          • Author by roundhouse (March 27, 2007 2:52 pm ET)
               

            Talk about wrecking the U.S. economy. Iraq?

            Reinstate the 1% doctrine on global warming. There is more evidence to support a looming global climate crisis than there was evidence connecting Hussein to WMD or Al Qeada.

            Anyway, this idea that the economy will be ruined by inventing our way out from under our dependence on foreign oil is reckless at best. It is a lack of imagination to think we couldn't sustain a green economy.

            Report Abuse
            • Author by cb (March 27, 2007 3:29 pm ET)
                 

              Round, I agree with you. From one of my previous post on a related thread:

               “ The thing I really don’t understand is this…if reducing CO2 is the goal of the global warming community why not do it in the name of becoming energy independent and freeing our country from the threat posed by oil rich middle eastern countries instead of creating a cause that must be accepted by faith like global warming?  It is a FACT that we need to rid ourselves from our dependence on foreign oil.  Developing alternative energy technology would also have the secondary effect of reducing CO2 emissions. That would be much easier to sell to global warming skeptics than the current global warming “the sky is falling” movement.  My suggestion…put as much energy in demanding alternatives to fossil fuel as you are currently putting in drumming up support for the global warming faith and do it in the name of national security.  The same goals can be achieved and will be based on facts that don’t require a leap of faith.  Doing it this way will mean a lot of people (politicians and scientists) won’t get paid and that unfortunately will probably keep it from happening. 

               With the federal government collecting 18.3 cents per gallon and the states averaging another 30+ cents per gallon in tax revenue on gasoline how will the government ever replace that revenue?  Everyone was up in arms that the big oil companies earned 9 cents per gallon for their product last year while ignoring the 50+ cents per gallon collected in taxes.  Until they figure out an alternative way to power our vehicles that can be TAXED, there is not much hope for change.” 

              Logic says when you reach an impasse on an issue, you look for other ways to accomplish the same thing without the resistance.  If global warming hadn’t become such a religion for many of you, you would see that developing alternative energy technology is the answer to many of the world’s problems including global warming, if it exist, and a much easier "sell" to skeptics.  

              Report Abuse
              • Author by PKD (March 28, 2007 12:53 pm ET)
                   

                If global warming hadn’t become such a religion for many of you, you would see that developing alternative energy technology is the answer to many of the world’s problems including global warming, if it exist, and a much easier "sell" to skeptics. 

                +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 

                Hmmmm, someone who starts his posts like "you liberal Kool-Aid drinkers" is definitely is not just a "skeptics" but someone who is going to oppose GW viewpoint in any cost because it is coming from liberals side. Basically your point is that this is coming from Gore and his liberal side, therefore it has to be wrong. You are not questioning the merit of AGW theory but you are upset that it is coming from liberal side.

                There are ample number of papers published in various scientific journals supporting AGW. Ironically there are very few credible stuffs in your side. But you still going to oppose STRONGLY anyway - without accepting a single aspect (not the whole theory) of AGW theory. Let's see the argument coming from you:

                "the Earth can also tolerate increase and decreases in co2 without catastrophe."

                Sounds like a faith-based argument to me. Now tell me who is religious? You or Al Gore?

                 

                Report Abuse
              • Author by roundhouse (March 28, 2007 3:20 pm ET)
                   

                Agreement on contentious issues is a good thing, so I won't delve into the facts, or lack thereof on global warming. Nor will I trade barbs with those who consider environmentalists to be the same as fundamentalists.

                Since we are sharing, I will share two questions. Why attack the other side of the discussion so vehemently? Why not stay positive and advocate an affirmative policy on energy independence?

                You won't lose any conservative street cred. for supporting a cause in which you authentically believe.

                Thanks for the exchange, CB.

                Report Abuse
      • Author by solon (March 27, 2007 11:42 am ET)
           

        Yes CO2 occurs naturally. Did you know that potassium occurs naturally in your body. It maintains a natural balance, if you UNNATURALLY raise the level of potassium in your body by 10% it will become toxic and kill you. A specific balance is maintained, destroy that balance and you begin to cause serious problems.

        Report Abuse
        • Author by AmericanMutt (March 27, 2007 12:05 pm ET)
             

          Hey H2O also! And we have a very recent example of what happens when to much H2O is introduced into the body (a woman engaged in a radio contest to drink as much water as possible died from OD'ing on water. Humm, that is more deaths from a water OD then have ever died from smoking pot. makes you wonder don't it...) then it can handle. Of course if you tried to extract all the water bad things will happne, there is a BALANCE to these things that know-nothings like CB cannot grasp.

          Report Abuse
          • Author by cb (March 27, 2007 12:46 pm ET)
               

            And you are a perfect example of what happens when somebody drinks to much liberal Kool-Aid.  You consider yourselves all-powerful, able to control the very climate of the planet with your intellect.  Obviously, you give yourselves way too much credit.  Even in your stupid H2O example, you fail to prove anything since drinking 4% - 10% above normal daily intake would present no ill effects.  Under normal circumstances, 2 liters of water per day is recommended by doctors.  2 liters of water is approximately 33.81 ounces.  Drinking 35.1 to 37.19 ounces will not kill anyone anymore than adding .5% - 1.25% co2 , the amount of co2 caused by the United States, will cause a climate catastrophe.  In your example, if a person fell into a lake and drowned, you be claiming that the extra water the person drank before falling in is what actually killed him.  Ridiculous!

             And another thing…since the total output of co2 for all of mankind is 4% - 10% of the total co2 released into the atmosphere, your suggestion that we cut 10% to maintain balance would mean that all of human activity, including breathing, would have to stop.  Do you really think that is a good idea, moron?

            Report Abuse
            • Author by solon (March 27, 2007 1:06 pm ET)
                 

              The question ISNT the strawman can we CONTROL the climate with out INTELLECT the question is can we EFFECT the climate with out POLLUTION and the answer is YES WE CAN and HAVE. Some things are maintained at a specific balance changing that balance CAN and often DOES have a detrimental effect, this is really quite simple.

              Report Abuse
            • Author by magnolialover (March 27, 2007 1:38 pm ET)
                 

              Nah, it's morons like yourself that think "breathing" contributes to global warming and that our emissions do not. Good talking points, but not based in what most people would call reality.

              Oh, and 2 liters of water is actually more like 67 ounces of water.

              Report Abuse
              • Author by cb (March 27, 2007 2:18 pm ET)
                   

                Try reading what I said again…I don’t believe that EITHER of those activities contributes to global warming.  However, it is a fact that when humans, including yourself if you are a human, exhale, co2 is released into the atmosphere.  You are the ones saying co2 is causing global warming so I look forward to your rebuttal proving that the Earth can differentiate between co2 caused by pollution and that caused by normal breathing. While I do believe that there are a million GOOD reasons to reduce pollution and be good stewards of the planet, I don’t believe that stopping global warming is one of them. 

                 

                Oh, and thanks for checking my math…While I failed to multiply by 2 for my water example, the truth of my post remains…drinking 4% - 10% more than the daily recommended amount of water will not kill anyone.  It is about tolerance…just like the human body can tolerate 4% - 10% more than the recommended amount of water, the Earth can also tolerate increase and decreases in co2 without catastrophe.  

                 

                 

                Report Abuse
                • Author by valentinian (March 27, 2007 2:34 pm ET)
                     

                  Earth can also tolerate increase and decreases in co2 without catastrophe. 

                  Do you feel such a sweeping assertion should be backed up by anything, anything at all? Or is it just enough that you said it, posted a comment on a blog for the world to see, and that should be it?

                  Report Abuse
                • Author by magnolialover (March 27, 2007 3:07 pm ET)
                     

                  No indeed, the Earth cannot differntiate between what is natural CO2 emissions, and what are not natural CO2 emissions, but since the dearth of scientific knowledge says that manmade CO2 emissions is increasing the pace of global warming, then shouldn't we start reducing manmade emissions? You want to be a good steward of the planet, why isn't global warming one of your quests then?

                  It has been proven, time and again, that at the rate we're spewing forth more and more CO2 into the Earth's atmosphere, it can't handle it forever. You know, ozone holes, global warming, stuff like that.

                  Report Abuse
            • Author by valentinian (March 27, 2007 2:12 pm ET)
                 

              I strongly feel we should go with some random crank blog commenter who doesn't know the metric system, rather than the accepted scientific consensus.

              Report Abuse
              • Author by cb (March 27, 2007 2:54 pm ET)
                   

                Val, we’ve been here before...you claim I have no peer-reviewed study to back up my position and I claim that you have no peer-reviewed studies that haven’t been bought and paid for to back up yours.  So, it looks like we will never agree on this subject. 

                 I know one thing for sure…nature is tough.  I have confidence that the Earth will survive and that life will adapt to ever changing conditions as it has done for millions of years.  It’s self-indulgent and narcissistic on your part to believe that humans have anywhere near the power you claim to control the climate of the planet. 

                 

                Report Abuse
                • Author by rusty shackleford (March 27, 2007 3:32 pm ET)
                     

                  So global warming will not literally explode the earth.  That's very comforting.

                  Report Abuse
                • Author by valentinian (March 27, 2007 4:08 pm ET)
                     

                  Are you really basing your whole objection on the premise that every single one of the refereed publications is "bought and paid for?" That's all there is your contrarian stance?

                  I mean, more power to ya for staking out such a bold position, but to come on here with such a wildly speculative theory and then deride other people as "kool-aid drinkers," "morons," etc... well, let me just say that it must be difficult to ride a bicycle with balls that big. 

                  Report Abuse
                • Author by skeptical (March 28, 2007 3:53 pm ET)
                     

                  CB

                  Where did you get your info on CO2?  I can't find anything that says 4 - 10% only is man made?

                  Report Abuse
                  • Author by cb (March 28, 2007 4:37 pm ET)
                       

                    Man-made contribution to co2

                     

                     

                    Report Abuse
                    • Author by PKD (March 28, 2007 8:04 pm ET)
                         

                      It's true that water vapor is a major greenhouse gas, mostly because there is much more water vapor in the atmosphere than CO2 or methane. both CO2 and methane however, are much more potent, so small increases can have large effects. Also, notice that the graph says "natural and manmade sources".  That itself is very simplistic view of the complex atmosphere. Increased CO2 in the atmosphere increases the amount of water vapor in the atmosphere thereby making GW even worse. As a result, even though all the water vapors are labelled as "natural" in this article, in reality they are not so. A good amount of vapor is contributed by "manmade sources".

                      Secondly, that small number 0.072 builds up over time.

                      Report Abuse
                      • Author by NL207 (March 28, 2007 10:24 pm ET)
                           

                        Lets look at the proposition that  CO2 and Methane are significant greenhouse effect contributors.  Lets assume for a moment that increase in atmospheric CO2 concentration is responsible for 100% of the observed mean global surface temperature change observed over the last century.  Lets also assume that man is responsible for 100% of this increase.  Neither of these statements is actually true but they err on the side of caution and are useful simplifications.

                        A few facts:  (1) The mean temperature of the Earth is approximately 288 degrees Kelvin.  (2)  The mean temperature change over the last 100 years was, according to the IPCC 2001 report, 0.6 degree kelvin.  (3) The Earth's atmosphere contributes about 33 degrees kelvin to the mean temperature of the earth, meaning the earth wold be a frozen hell at 255 K were it not for its atmospheric blanket. (4) Atmospheric CO2 concentration increased roughly 35% in the last century.

                        From a simple estimation technique, we can readily see that the 35% CO2 increase only produced a greenhouse effect increase that could not possibly have exceeded 1.8%.   This result suggests an upper limit of about 6% of the total greenhouse effect is attributable to CO2 alone.

                        Implies that man has contributed at most, 0.2% to the net warmth of the earth, so small as to nearly defy maccurate measurement.  Inconsequential.

                        THIS is the Inconvenient Truth.

                        Report Abuse
                        • Author by skeptical (March 28, 2007 11:11 pm ET)
                             

                          NL207,

                          Your so-called logic and subsequent conclusions defy even the most liberal definitions.

                          Even tiny changes in the "mean" temperature can cause drastic catastrophic results.

                          I love how you come to this grand conculsion without even the slightest knowledge as to what you are talking about.

                          Please provide your credentials in climatology or some other scientific area that allows you to pontificate so well.

                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by NL207 (March 29, 2007 7:17 am ET)
                               

                            I'll ask you the same question.  How can you justify the asinine claim that tiny changes will produce major effects in a system as masive as the earth?  This is akin to claiming that dropping a marble upon the earth's surface will generate an earthquake.

                            How do you know what my knowledge base on the subject is?  In that little spot above was more fact than any other single comment on this thread.  I should think THAT would have been fair warning by itself.

                            My credentials are irrelevant in this case because there is nothing in my post which cannot quickly be verified with a Google.  Do the googling yourself.  See what you get.

                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by skeptical (March 29, 2007 9:46 am ET)
                                 

                              NL,

                              Unless you are a climatologist who has done some research on the subject, then your opinions are meaningless.

                              All of the climatologists that have done research into this phenomena state clearly that small changes have significant effects and that man's activity has contributed greatly to the increase in greenhouse gases and that these increases are speeding up the natural process of global warming.

                              What you have stated is meaningless drivel so as you told another blogger, get your head out of your arse.

                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by NL207 (March 29, 2007 11:04 am ET)
                                   

                                Good Lord, what an ignoramus!

                                Which of the facts I cited is false?  They are all easily verifiable through Google, and since you haven't attempted to refute any of them with a reference, that means you have conceded them all.  You lose the point.

                                Next:  You are factually incorrect.  Not all of the scientists you refer to as climatologists agree that CO2 increase has greatly affected global climate or that any future effects will be calamitous.  I will provide you with one:   Dr. Richard S. Lindzen. http://www-eaps.mit.edu/faculty/lindzen.htm He does not agree with this thesis.  Therefore your claim that ALL AGREE is false.  You lose this point also.

                                Last, the vast majoriy of scientists you would call climatologists do not have a degree in anything called 'climatology'.  The leading pro gobal warming scientist in the US, Dr. James E. Hansen, is actually a physicist by training. http://www.columbia.edu/~jeh1/  The closest degree programs I am aware of that produce anything like a credential in climatology are Doctorate programs in Meteorology or Geography, many of which have recently begun offering a climatology track.  This is an example:  http://www.udel.edu/Geography/grad.html  These programs are not old enough to have trained the current crop of prominent scientists.  The interesting thing about meteorologists is that a great number of them are global warming sceptics, and their opinions are widely discounted in the pro Global Warming community by people like you, who lack any real scientific training.

                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by skeptical (March 29, 2007 1:47 pm ET)
                                     

                                  Hey Stupid,

                                  Since you started name calling, I feel obligated to continue, you cite a bunch of facts and then make a stupid conclusion.  You lack even the slightest bit of brain matter.

                                  We aren't having a contest so claiming someone won or lost is stupid.

                                  Yes, all of the scientists do agree, your reference to Dr. Lindzen did not provide any evidence to the contrary.

                                  Dr. Hansen is one of thousands of scientists that agree.

                                  Finally, I refer to climatologists as a shorthand reference to all people with a scientific background and education who study the climate which includes many scientific disciplines.

                                  Now, go back to grade school and learn something about the things you think you have some knowledge about.

                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by skeptical (March 29, 2007 1:50 pm ET)
                                       

                                    I also forgot to mention that no meteorologists are global warming skeptics.

                                    You are really, really stupid you know making statements with no backup and providing links that don't provide the evidence you need.

                                    Report Abuse
                                    • Author by NL207 (March 29, 2007 3:55 pm ET)
                                         

                                      You may call me anything you like, but you are still ignorant.  You should learn the difference between ignorance and stupidity.  The former may be cured, but the later ...

                                      You are once more shown to be factually incorrect. 

                                      Maybe you will appreciate this op-ed by Dr. Lindzen. http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110008220 Indeed, he is an Anthropogenic Gobal Warming Skeptic.

                                      You will also appreciate the positions of these meteorlogists on the subject of anthropogenic global warming.  They are all sceptics.

                                      Dr. Joe Sobel, Dr. Joe Bastardi and Dr. William Gray.

                                      an op ed by Gray:

                                       http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/23/AR2006052301305_pf.html

                                      Google the other two at your leisure.

                                      So, clearly, since there are Phd meteorologists who are also Global Warming skeptics, your claim that ALL METEOROLOGISTS accept the theory of AGW is also false.

                                      You clearly do not even know what the facts of this debate are. How can someone who is so seriously misinformed have any worthwhile opinion on the subject much less carry on a debate on the topic without getting hammered?

                                      Report Abuse
                                      • Author by skeptical (March 29, 2007 5:00 pm ET)
                                           

                                        Okay NL,

                                        Now you provide a link that supports your claim and I'm ignorant.  You are dumber than a post, Mr. Stupid.  Your links are over a year old and still nothing.

                                        Where is the research to back his claims, Peer Reviewed?

                                        No, No and NO.

                                        You still do not get it do you.  Thousands of scientists do research and come to a conclusion.  You find a crackpot who makes comments and that's the basis of your argument.

                                        Re-think your conditions of stupidity and ignorance stupid.

                                        Report Abuse
                                      • Author by skeptical (March 29, 2007 5:07 pm ET)
                                           

                                        NL,

                                        Did you actually read the Post article, it contradicts what you are saying and calls your guy a crackpot.

                                        You are getting stupider, if that's even a word!

                                        Report Abuse
                                • Author by PKD (March 29, 2007 4:03 pm ET)
                                     

                                  I will provide you with one:   Dr. Richard S. Lindzen. http://www-eaps.mit.edu/faculty/lindzen.htm He does not agree with this thesis.

                                  +++++++++++++++++++

                                   

                                  Better links for Lindzen:

                                  http://www.exxonsecrets.org/html/personfactsheet.php?id=17

                                   Ross Gelbspan reported in 1995 that Lindzen "charges oil and coal interests $2,500 a day for his consulting services; his 1991 trip to testify before a Senate committee was paid for by Western Fuels, and a speech he wrote, entitled 'Global Warming: the Origin and Nature of Alleged Scientific Consensus,' was underwritten by OPEC." ("The Heat is On: The warming of the world's climate sparks a blaze of denial," Harper's magazine, December 1995.)

                                   

                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by NL207 (March 29, 2007 4:35 pm ET)
                                       

                                    That's it, let's make an ad hominem attack on the scientist's ethics rather than debate the scientific content of his work.

                                    You don't suppose the Billions spent by governments researching anthropogenic global warming would be any incentive for its recipients to continue emphasizing the threat of global warming, do you?  What do you think would happen to that river of government funding if politicians were convinced climate change was mostly natural? 

                                    Maybe this would interest you.  In liberal bastion, New York, Lindzen and two other debaters handily downed Dr. Richard C.J. Somerville an Dr. Gavin Schmidt, neither of whom are weak minded fools.

                                    http://www.intelligencesquaredus.org/Event.aspx?Event=12

                                     

                                    Report Abuse
                                    • Author by skeptical (March 29, 2007 5:02 pm ET)
                                         

                                      NL,

                                      Billions? please provide links you lying crackpot!

                                      Report Abuse
                                    • Author by skeptical (March 29, 2007 5:10 pm ET)
                                         

                                      NL,

                                      Your commentary on the debate is delusional at best.  Let's take the word of a film maker over scientists.  Okay!

                                      Report Abuse
                                    • Author by PKD (March 29, 2007 6:06 pm ET)
                                         

                                      That's it, let's make an ad hominem attack on the scientist's ethics rather than debate the scientific content of his work.

                                      ++++++++++++++++++++

                                      Merely describing the fact. You call it ad hominem attack? In last few years he was widely funded by oil industry. Amazingly his all the conclusions about environent and pollution sides with oil industry. Don't you think I should raise my eyebrows. Is it just coincidence that he is funded by oil industry and his scientific conclusions ALWAYS favor oil industry? In fact, if his works did not favor oil industry, you and I would not hear his name (he would be an anonymous scientists like many others).

                                      It reminds me "cigerette does not cause cancer" story. There were some scientists who claimed that there was no relation between smoking and cancer. Interestingly those scientists were funded by tobacco industry. Sounds familiar?

                                       -------------------

                                      You don't suppose the Billions spent by governments researching anthropogenic global warming would be any incentive for its recipients to continue emphasizing the threat of global warming, do you?  What do you think would happen to that river of government funding if politicians were convinced climate change was mostly natural?

                                      ++++++++++++++++++++++++ 

                                      It's possible. I don't rule it out. In that case you should find those scientists and find their fraud works. Interestingly I don't find AGW skeptics are doing that kind of constructive works. All they are doing is making up fake science papers (to give an impression that it is peer-reviewed paper), spreading mis-information in internet, making documentaries with dobious graphs and data and writing lots of articles in Wall Street Journal (not science journal for peer-review).

                                      Overall, I am noticing that there are more frauds going in your side than pro-AGW theory side. 

                                       

                                       

                                      Report Abuse
                        • Author by PKD (March 29, 2007 1:30 am ET)
                             

                          A few facts:  (1) The mean temperature of the Earth is approximately 288 degrees Kelvin.

                          ++++++++++++++++++++

                          First of all, did you read any article in global warming? If you read, you would know that global warming does not mean global temperature going up N degree Celcius uniformly all over the places. In fact due to global warming in future some place may be cooler than today climate. There are various factors - geographic location, topology, change of ocean currents etc. For example, warmer gulf stream plays a role in UK climate. If gulf stream gets deverted due to global warming, UK climate may actually become cooler.

                           

                           -------------

                          (2)  The mean temperature change over the last 100 years was, according to the IPCC 2001 report, 0.6 degree kelvin.

                          ++++++++++++++++

                          Please read this graph. You will get some idea how recent years have been warmer than normal and average surface temperature.  Recent years are warmer than average surface temperature. 

                           Global Average Surface Temperature Anomalies

                          --------------------------

                          (4) Atmospheric CO2 concentration increased roughly 35% in the last century.

                          +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

                          The important things is rate of increase of CO2 in recent years. That is more important than simple linear arithmetic.

                          Some of these graphs will give some idea how CO2 affect climate. Here transient experiment is taking CO2 increase into account and control experiement is without taking CO2 increase into account. The temperature difference between these two experiment is also shown in graph.

                          Surface Air Temperature Map 

                          Report Abuse
                          • Author by NL207 (March 29, 2007 7:40 am ET)
                               

                            Please remove your head from your posterior and observe that what I did was a simple engineering technique.  If memory serves me, it is commonly known as a Bounds Analysis which s not intended to produce and exact result to N decimal places but rather is intended to compute maxumum or minimum limits on the variability of some parameter or outcome.  In this case, I was looking at the parameter, greenhouse effect of atmospheric CO2 concentration.  based on the data the charts you refer to happen to agree with, the analysis happens to suggest that CO2 is a minor player in the greenhouse gas equation. 

                            Why don't you google some pages about what the relative greenhouse effects of the aggregate atmospheric water vapor vs CO2.  I don't see any of them that say water vapor is less than 60% of the effect.  Try the search:  "greenhouse gas effect of water vapor".  The first result I get is:  http://www.clearlight.com/~mhieb/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html

                            containing this:

                            "Water vapor constitutes Earth's most significant greenhouse gas, accounting for about 95% of Earth's greenhouse effect (4). "

                            There are about 933,000 more results in the search set.  I can tell you that none of them that give this value place it at less than 60% of the total effect.  You can look for yourself.  Notice if you will how many of the pro-global warming sites omit the water vapor numbers or omit water vapor completely from their list of greenhouse gases.  Why do you suppose this is so?

                            I love your logical conclusion process.   Because I disagree with your position I must be stupid or uninformed.  

                            Report Abuse
                            • Author by skeptical (March 29, 2007 9:48 am ET)
                                 

                              NL

                              Your simple approach to the most complex problem of our time shows you to be the most simpleminded person here.

                              Your displaying your credentials without telling me.

                              Thanks

                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by NL207 (March 29, 2007 12:25 pm ET)
                                   

                                The simple approach helps people of limited understanding like yourself comprehend the point.   It is not practical to discuss a recursive system of differential equations before an audience dominated by people without a higher education in mathematics.

                                The point is this:  The amount of change observed over this last century of observation is trivial, 0.6 degrees K, especially when one consider what happened in the years surrounding the end of the last ice age. http://carto.eu.org/article2481.html Notice the natural range of variabilty, something on the order of 12.0 degrees K over the last 420,000 years.  We aren't any where near the peaks observed in interglacial times.  According to Al Gore, the end of the world as we know it is near.  This is all alarmism.

                                Report Abuse
                                • Author by PKD (March 29, 2007 1:40 pm ET)
                                     

                                  The amount of change observed over this last century of observation is trivial, 0.6 degrees K,

                                  +++++++++++++++++++++++++ 

                                  Now you are sounding like a broken record - keep repeating the same thing again and again without reading the replies of your earlier comments. 

                                  In nutshell, rate of annual temperature increase is more important factor than mean surface temperature in sea level. Check the rate of increase in annual temperature in recent years.

                                   

                                  Report Abuse
                                  • Author by NL207 (March 29, 2007 2:05 pm ET)
                                       

                                    In a nutshell, the rate of change over the last century was not constant.  It has not been the same over the last decade as it was over the interval 1967-1998.   Nor was it the same over the intervals 1920-1940 or 1940-1967.  There is no reason to believe that rate will not continue to be variable over the next 100 years.  Therefore, the rate is an unreliable predictor over intervals greater than 30 years.

                                    Let me stuff this in your tail pipe:  The rate of change in the optimum interval [1067-1998] for your purposes was calculated to be about 0.17 K per decade.  The IPCC ful report of 2001 projected warming of 1.7-5.4 K over the next century.  If indeed the RATE of warming is what we should be looking at, I can see directly where the IPCC got their 1.7 K number from, a simple assumption that the rate of warming over the interval [2000-2100] will be on average, equal to the rate of warming over the interval [1967-1998].  Where do you suppose they derived their 5.4 K number from?  What do you think the liklihood is that larger number is anywhere near correct?  Why would any responsible scientific body publish such a number?

                                    Report Abuse
                                    • Author by skeptical (March 29, 2007 2:12 pm ET)
                                         

                                      NL,

                                      Are you claiming that you know more than all of these scientists about this subject.

                                      You are the one person in the world who has discovered that all of these thousands of scientists have been making incorrect conclusions based on the reams of data they have been studying?

                                      You have the best data and only now have felt the desire to share it with the world?

                                      All of these thousands of scientists don't know as much as you and don't have the data the you have?

                                      Are you kidding me? You come here spouting nonsense and you want us to ignore the scientific consensus and believe what you say.

                                      WOW, you are crazier than I had previuosly believed!

                                      Report Abuse
                                      • Author by NL207 (March 29, 2007 5:20 pm ET)
                                           

                                        You confuse Scientific Consensus with Political Dogma.

                                         There is no scientific consensus that human activity is the major driving force behind the climate on earth.  In fact, there is overwhlming scientific consensus that aggregate human activity has thus far produced a nearly imperceptible blip in the climate of this planet, and barring a full scale nuclear exchange, it will likely continue to be so. Read the IPCC reports for yourself.  Get the 2001 full report.  This "Policy makers summary" just released isn't trustworthy.  The 2007 full report won't be available until June at the earliest.

                                        The proof has been presented before in this thread.  The mean temperature of the Earth is at present slightly more than 288 Kelvin.  http://library.thinkquest.org/10701/text/earth.html 255 K of this is directly attributable to solar irradiance.   33 K is attributable to the aggregate influence of Earth's atmosphere. http://lwf.ncdc.noaa.gov/oa/climate/globalwarming.html

                                        And what has been the aggregate natural and human induced variance introduced into this system?  A few tenths of a degree!  This is so inconsequential that until recently, science had great difficulty even measuring it accurately.  So ... 288 K from natural causes.  0.6 K from combined man-made and natural variations in your mind constitutes a crisis requiring the most massive governmental intervention into private life in history.  I thought you liberls were opposed to police states, or is it just RIGHT wing police states that you oppose?

                                        Report Abuse
                                        • Author by skeptical (March 29, 2007 5:36 pm ET)
                                             

                                          NL,

                                          You are wrong again and your links don't help you.  Your first link means nothing because who produced it?  Not a scientist!

                                          Your second link says that man is causing the increase in greenhouse gases, there is a consensus and this is causing global warming.

                                          Do you ever get tired of being stupid?

                                          Report Abuse
                                        • Author by PKD (March 29, 2007 6:39 pm ET)
                                             

                                          In fact, there is overwhlming scientific consensus that aggregate human activity has thus far produced a nearly imperceptible blip in the climate of this planet, and barring a full scale nuclear exchange, it will likely continue to be so. Read the IPCC reports for yourself.  Get the 2001 full report.

                                          ++++++++++++++++++ 

                                          Another example of cherry picking data to fit your argument. Why 2001? Why not 2004 or 2005 or 2006 or 2007? Here the article about recent IPCC report (not from 2001).

                                          Global Warming:L the final verdict (The Observer)

                                           Of couse you will say that IPCC is alamist and fraud. Basically, you would like to quote IPCC as long as it fits your argument (with old data and report though).

                                           

                                          Report Abuse
                                    • Author by skeptical (March 29, 2007 2:17 pm ET)
                                         

                                      NL,

                                      A little bit of advice, if you ever want to taken seriously again, please cite references.  You can't make statements without references and expect people to believe you.

                                      What you do makes you seem stupid instead, like you are just making things up.  And, don't expect people to look it up for you.  Don't be so lazy! If you make the statement , then you provide the reference, end of story. 

                                      Report Abuse
                                      • Author by NL207 (March 29, 2007 4:42 pm ET)
                                           

                                        I cited plenty of references.  Most all of the information I cited is COMMON KNOWLEDGE to anyone aquainted with the field and is readily available on the web.

                                        Is there something wrong with your typing fingers?  You don't know how to operate a search engine? 

                                        Or maybe you just don't like to have your comfortable little world shaken.

                                        Report Abuse
                                        • Author by skeptical (March 29, 2007 5:17 pm ET)
                                             

                                          NL,

                                          Please re-cite your references, because I can't find them.  Maybe you are too stupid to re-read your posts.  Your first reference was to Lindzen and that didn't back up your statements.

                                          Try providing some background on your foolish conclusions with the unrelated facts that you provide.

                                          Or maybe a link that isn't a year old.

                                          I think your brain is on overload because you are not thinking too straight.

                                          Report Abuse
                                        • Author by PKD (March 29, 2007 5:37 pm ET)
                                             

                                          I cited plenty of references.  Most all of the information I cited is COMMON KNOWLEDGE to anyone aquainted with the field and is readily available on the web.

                                          ++++++++++++++++++++

                                           And none of these materials provide the source of their data. While presenting data, they do three things

                                          1. Make up their own numbers. Even if they take it from somewhere they don't mention where the data came from, what method used. Example, 95% vapor in greenhouse.

                                          2. Take data/numbers from reliable source and then twist and misrepresent those data. Example, in Global Warming Swindle, the data is taken from NASA but they misreprsent the data in their own made-up graph.

                                          http://news.independent.co.uk/environment/climate_change/article2355956.ece

                                           

                                          3.  They cherry-pick data to fit their argument. Example, using surface temperature increment in 100 years. Then, in Global Warming Swindle, sunspot graph. Here what The Independent says:

                                           "Other graphs used in the film contained known errors, notably the graph of sunspot activity. Mr Durkin used data on solar cycle lengths which were first published in 1991 despite a corrected version being available - but again the corrected version would not have supported his argument."

                                           

                                          COMMON KNOWLEDGE? Well, you google it, just read first a few article available in internet. You want to call it "common knowledge"? AGW skeptics are successful about it. They just throw some article internet to create doubts among people about AGW theory. They don't publish any paper in science journals for peer-review, but they publish ample articles in Wall Street Journal. So I guess you got th idea who they work and what their agenda is.

                                           

                                          Report Abuse
                                          • Author by PKD (March 29, 2007 5:40 pm ET)
                                               

                                            Small correction:

                                             

                                            So I guess you got the idea how they work and what their agenda is.

                                            Report Abuse
                                    • Author by PKD (March 29, 2007 3:36 pm ET)
                                         

                                      I can see directly where the IPCC got their 1.7 K number from, a simple assumption that the rate of warming over the interval [2000-2100] will be on average, equal to the rate of warming over the interval [1967-1998].  Where do you suppose they derived their 5.4 K number from? 

                                      +++++++++++++++++++++++

                                      Surface temp measuement is not the only type of measurement to measure warming. In fact this is one of the least reliable way to measure rate of increase ("least reliable" does not mean it's invalid). Very conveniently your source took only this measurement into account and ignored rest.  There are other types of measurements too - ocean temperature, sea level rise (due to expanding water), setellites and radiosondes, borehole analysis, paleoclimatic data etc. Various measurements give various numbers. In addition, various models give various results and that's why there is a huge difference. Again, it's not linear extrapolation, as you would like to think.

                                       

                                      ---------

                                       What do you think the liklihood is that larger number is anywhere near correct?  Why would any responsible scientific body publish such a number?

                                      +++++++++++++++++++++++

                                      Good question. It's just estimate based on various models. And estimates are peer reviewed in various science journals. Interestingly, nobody including AGW skeptics could not refute those number in scientific community, by publishing papers to counter those numbers. All I see a few articles here and there in internet disputing those numbers. And they got people like you who are willing to believe anything they say or write - without doing any proper fact checks. Just to make it convincing, they throw their own numbers to give an impression that these are also result of some kind of research.

                                      It's possible that IPCC is a crooked institution and alamist. Being an openminded, I don't rule out anything. But until someone proves that, they are not. There are procedures to question their numbers and expose them (if any agenda they have at all) - by published papers, getting peer-reviewed. You and your side is not doing that, but running away. Instead all they are going is writing fake papers (remember Oregon Petition project?), writing articles in internet to appeal mass and create doubts and making documentaries (Global Warming Swindle).

                                       

                                      Report Abuse
                                • Author by skeptical (March 29, 2007 1:57 pm ET)
                                     

                                  Again with the name calling.  I think you are looking in a mirror.  Everything you have said has been completely refuted, yet you repeat it over and over again.

                                  You have no standing.

                                  We cite scientific research, you cite your opinions.

                                  You have no clue, the scientists do.

                                  I think it's time for you to stop trying to act intelligent (it's only an act remember) and listen to the scientists who study these things.  They know far more than you could ever conceive.  Your points are meaningless and you are stupid, dumb, ignorant, uneducated, and most likely have very little self esteem which is why you act tough on a blog.

                                  Go home and lick your wounds, think about how stupid you sound and try to gain some knowledge.

                                  Report Abuse
                            • Author by PKD (March 29, 2007 12:52 pm ET)
                                 

                              Try the search:  "greenhouse gas effect of water vapor".  The first result I get is:  http://www.clearlight.com/~mhieb/WVFossils/greenhouse_data.html

                              containing this:

                              "Water vapor constitutes Earth's most significant greenhouse gas, accounting for about 95% of Earth's greenhouse effect (4). "

                              ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

                              The basic problem is this number (95%) is that it does not take manmade effects into accounts. Therefore, labeling 95% vapor as "manmade" is intellecitual fraud. And this is how anti-AGW scientists (or non-scientists) dupe you - by simple maths, where the real issue is much complex and cannot be solved with such a simple math. To solve this problem what it requires is computer models - feeding N number of data. Everything in this earth is NOT LINEAR and cannot be solved using simple math. 

                              I posted it earlier, resposting the text again: 

                              ---- 

                               

                              It's true that water vapor is a major greenhouse gas, mostly because there is much more water vapor in the atmosphere than CO2 or methane. both CO2 and methane however, are much more potent, so small increases can have large effects. Also, notice that the graph says "natural and manmade sources".  That itself is very simplistic view of the complex atmosphere. Increased CO2 in the atmosphere increases the amount of water vapor in the atmosphere thereby making GW even worse. As a result, even though all the water vapors are labelled as "natural" in this article, in reality they are not so. A good amount of vapor is contributed by "manmade sources".

                              Secondly, that small number 0.072 builds up over time.

                               

                               

                              Report Abuse
                              • Author by PKD (March 29, 2007 12:55 pm ET)
                                   

                                A small correction. The actual sentence will be:

                                Therefore, labelling 95% vapor as "natural" is intellecitual fraud.

                                Report Abuse
                            • Author by PKD (March 29, 2007 1:14 pm ET)
                                 

                              based on the data the charts you refer to happen to agree with, the analysis happens to suggest that CO2 is a minor player in the greenhouse gas equation.

                              +++++++++++++++++++++++ 

                               

                              How so!!!!!!! Interestingly you don't layout the specifics about how it agrees with you. You just throw some words and assume that nobody is going to notice or realize.

                              Did you see the The Difference between transient and control experiements - decal mean graph?

                              According to this graph, the temperature difference is less near equator and worse in arctic and antartic reagions (as high as 5 degree C in 100 years). As you love simple math, let me point out the difference one by one.

                              1. You compared mean surface temperature and concluded that the difference is only 0.6 degree K in last 100 years. But this graph says that if CO2 increases in 1% rate, it is going to make as high as 5 degree celcius in some area.

                              2. This graph used 1% rate increase. This is a very optimistic number. In reality in recent years we are adding 1.3 to 1.6% CO2 every year.

                               

                              Now do that math.

                               

                               

                               

                              Report Abuse
                            • Author by PKD (March 29, 2007 1:32 pm ET)
                                 

                              I can tell you that none of them that give this value place it at less than 60% of the total effect.

                              +++++++++++++++++++++++++ 

                              It's very simple. The actual percent is not easy to measure and it depends on various weather factors in a particular region.  Those who put 60 or 70% numbers are atleast honest to say that "on a clear day, water vapor can comprise 60 to 70 percent of the greenhouse effect". So basically it's assuming the best case (clear day).

                              But YOUR source is very shy to mention the specific. Where is this 95% number come from? In what kind of condition? Is this the best case or worst case?

                               

                              Your question is best answered in this blog: 

                              http://illconsidered.blogspot.com/2006/01/water-vapor-is-almost-all-of.html 

                              Objection:H2O is 95% of the Greenhouse effect, CO2 is insignificant. Why don't the scientist ever mention that?This is really a purely scientific question, how much of the Greenhouse Effect is due to which Greenhouse gas. So unless the person you are talking to has done some calculations of their own, well even in that case, you should try to get them to support that figure (95 or 98 or whatever it is) with an actual scientific source. As for the "never mentioned" part, this is just not true and is the subject of another Guide entry.Answer:What is the source for these numbers? According to all of the scientific literature and climate experts I have read, CO2 contributes anywhere from 9 to 30% towards the overall greenhouse effect. Depending on the method you use to determine these percentages they may even add up to more then 100% due to overlapping and saturation of absorbtion bands. Your numbers do not appear to come from a scientific source.

                              Report Abuse
                    • Author by skeptical (March 28, 2007 10:19 pm ET)
                         

                      CB,

                      That's a great link except I have no idea who made it and what that person's credentials are?

                      Do you have a link to a credible organization or scientist who will at least take credit for the article?

                      Report Abuse
            • Author by juliajayne (March 27, 2007 6:26 pm ET)
                 

              Talk about drinking the kool-aid, your previous comment about "us" having a "religion" about global warming is part and parcel of RNC talking point number 322. Okay, I made up the number 322, but global warming being a religion is the current narrative from RNC global warming dead enders.

              Report Abuse
              • Author by cb (March 28, 2007 11:12 am ET)
                   

                Anything that the opposing side of an argument says can’t be dismissed just by calling it a talking point.  I see this on this site all the time. It’s a talking point because it says something to counter the position of the other side.  Stating your position on a topic requires talking about it, i.e. talking points…it’s not always some evil conspiracy to falsely shoot down the opposing position.

                As far as global warming sounding more and more like a religion…you’ve got your believers, you’ve got your non-believers, you’ve got your savior (Al Gore), you’ve got your disciples, you collect your offerings, you attempt to convert non-believers all in the name of something that must be accepted by faith, you force people who don’t share your views to accept restrictive regulations related to how they live their lives…sounds like a religion to me.  You’ve even got your “papal indulgences” called “carbon offsets” in case you want to keep on “sinning” while still maintaining the highest religious platitude.

                Report Abuse
                • Author by PKD (March 28, 2007 12:36 pm ET)
                     

                  As far as global warming sounding more and more like a religion

                  +++++++++++++++++++++++++++

                  That's only your perception. Religion comes from the fear (fear of going to hell, fear of not being part of a group/clan etc). It also based on faith (that God exists). Knowing global warming is neither fear and faith. I think you quite got an idea in all the comments that people have good deal of idea what it is and how it can happen. They are not shouting like religious people "GW exists. How dare you talk against it". They have reasonable scientific explanations (not blind faith-based answers). Therefore your analogy does not hold any water.

                   

                  Report Abuse
                • Author by skeptical (March 28, 2007 10:23 pm ET)
                     

                  CB,

                  You haven't provided one bit of evidence that a single climate scientist or climatologist has done any research to contradict that consensus opinion of over 2500 climate scientists and climatologist that manmade generation of greenhouse gases are the major contributer to the current increased global warming trend.

                  Report Abuse
          • Author by NL207 (March 28, 2007 2:46 pm ET)
               

            You are factually incorrect.  In 2001, at least three persons died from the direct effects of pot smoking and another 135 died as a result of events subsequent and releated to pot smoking. I don't know where you get the idea that one water overdose is more common than all pot induced deaths ever recorded, but that is just plain wrong.

            http://www.briancbennett.com/charts/death/01pot-related.htm

            Report Abuse
    • Author by Cartoon Messiah (March 27, 2007 3:50 pm ET)
         

      Uhhh...

      Nuclear Winter anyone? Mankind has had the power to affect the environment in disastrous ways since at least the invention of the atomic bomb.

      Other, more ancient, examples of humans having an adverse affect on the environment have been intensive algriculture, transhumance and the spread of human, animal and plant born diseases.

      As far as the old line about cow farts and belches, these are concanetively man-made pollutions, as the amount of cows on Earth is only sustained for and by humans. As an aside, scientists have recently developed a pill that will reduce bovine gas - in Europe, where people in charge are actually doing something about GW!

      Report Abuse
      • Author by rusty shackleford (March 27, 2007 3:55 pm ET)
           

        I don't think we could trust George W. Bush with anything as complex as the Anti-Cow Fart Pill Initiative.

        Report Abuse
    • Author by d.doumit4772 (March 27, 2007 5:33 pm ET)
         

      How anyone could not believe that global warming is the byproduct of human activity is beyond my comprehension.  That is, in cliché’ terms, it does not take a rocket scientist to recognize that the signs have been more than apparent as far back as I could recall; and as far back as I could recall goes back about fifty years.  Growing up on the Jersey side of the Hudson in Weehawken, it was impossible to ignore the thick, heavy, almost black air created by bumper-to-bumper traffic into and out from the Lincoln and Holland tunnels; and that air was being inhaled – was penetrating the tissue of many a lung - on a daily basis long before SUVs were in fashion.  Now, fifty or so years later, it is almost impossible to ignore the thick, heavy, brown air created by bumper-to-bumper traffic into and out from Denver; and this air is being inhaled – is penetrating the tissue of many a lung – on a daily basis perhaps in a worse way in that SUVs are now so very in vogue. Motor vehicle emissions though are only one part of the equation.  Of comparable import are all the polluted particles sent into the air by, for example, industrial factories in Jersey, paper plants in Maine, beer breweries in Colorado, and so forth.  Indeed, one need only take a short trip down the Jersey Pike, along the Kennebec River in Maine, or past Coor’s brewery in Golden, Colorado, to realize that there is in fact a ‘blanket’ of pollutants hanging over the planet.  Now, to deny that this ‘blanket’ is NOT holding in at least a little heat seems to me preposterous. The question then seems to be not HOW anyone could not subscribe to the idea of global warming being the byproduct of human activity, but more importantly, WHY anyone would not subscribe to it.  In meditating upon this oddity, it is impossible to ignore the antagonism displayed in the rhetoric of media personalities as Tucker Carlson and Fred Barnes with regard to global warming.  More precisely, on more than a few occasions have I heard them mock the idea that global warming is the byproduct of human activity; and, almost always, does their mockery contain references to Al Gore.  Subsequently, this has led me to the following conclusion: their view of reality and the planet and life on earth is extremely finite and narcissistic in that they operate from the vantage point that discrediting someone who displeases them (for whatever reason) politically in the here and now is of greater import than the health of the planet over hundreds (if not thousands) of years and the welfare of future generations. At the end of the day though, it really matters not to planet earth what Tucker Carlson or Fred Barnes say in that the bottom line is this: planet earth will still be here long after Tucker and Fred are gone.  Whether or not she will be human-friendly is another question indeed.  Given the animosity displayed towards her over the course of, at the least, these past fifty or so years, it is not all that difficult to imagine her perfectly content without us. Diane Doumit

      calendarsago.com

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