Barnes: Rutgers basketball team "acted like victims"
Appearing on the "All-Star Panel" on the April 10 edition of Fox News' Special Report with Brit Hume, Weekly Standard executive editor Fred Barnes said that the Rutgers University women's basketball team "acted like victims" during their April 10 press conference responding to radio host Don Imus' statement that members of the team were "nappy-headed hos." After telling Barnes, "That sounds correct," Roll Call executive editor Morton M. Kondracke added, "[T]hey do live in a culture where a 'ho' is a commonly tossed-around term ... [b]y the rap music industry, by black men, largely."
After saying that "this is really a wonderful basketball team" and that Imus' comment, "as bad as it was, it can't ... take away their achievement," Barnes added, "I think they make one huge mistake, and that is going to meet with Don Imus. They don't need to meet with him. They ought to flick him off like a mosquito and move on and be proud, instead of acting as they did today. They acted like victims. They're winners. They should act like winners."
Responding to Barnes, Kondracke said, "That sounds correct. On the other hand, they live in a -- they do live in a culture where a 'ho' is a commonly tossed-around term. ... By whom? By the rap music industry, by black men, largely." Kondracke's statement echoed Imus' own non-defense of his comments that the phrase "nappy-headed hos" "originated in the black community" and that "I may be a white man, but I know that ... young black women all through that society are demeaned and disparaged and disrespected ... by their own black men and that they are called that name."
Later, Kondracke acknowledged that Imus' comments about the Rutgers team were "racist" but added, "I don't know that he has a record of a being a racist." Host Brit Hume responded, "I've seen efforts to try to construct a racist background, and it's a little skimpy." Media Matters for America has documented (here and here) the lengthy history of racially charged comments on Imus in the Morning.
From the April 10 edition of Fox News' Special Report with Brit Hume:
BARNES: The Rutgers basketball team -- and I watched them at their press conference and their coach and whoever that guy was, who was acting as the emcee. Who was that? The college president or something? But anyway, whoever it was, I watched them and, you know, I thought, "This is really a wonderful basketball team." They have every right to be proud of what they did.
You know, they beat Duke. I think Duke was unbeaten. Everybody expected it was going to win the women's national championship and they went on -- Rutgers went on to win the Final Four. I mean, they have every right to be proud of their great achievement, and then, yet, their coach said they were physically, mentally, and emotionally spent by what Don Imus said. My reaction was, "For Heaven's sakes, why?" You know, these -- it's not as if the president of the United States or some House speaker made these remark -- this remark about them.
HUME: Or another coach or players on another team, or the head of the NCAAs.
BARNES: He's a shock jock. This guy is a shock jock. I mean, he does this for a living. He's made racist remarks before. One of the players said she was scarred for life. By something that Don Imus said?
Look, I don't care what he said. As bad as it was, it can't, you know, take away their achievement. It doesn't taint their team at all. And I think they make one huge mistake, and that is going to meet with Don Imus. They don't need to meet with him. They ought to flick him off like a mosquito and move on and be proud, instead of acting as they did today. They acted like victims. They're winners. They should act like winners.
KONDRACKE: That sounds correct. On the other hand, they live in a -- they do live in a culture where a "ho" is a commonly tossed-around term.
HUME and KONDRACKE (in unison): By whom?
KONDRACKE: By whom? By the rap music industry, by black men, largely. Now, if Al Sharpton really wants to change things in this culture, what he should really do is go after the recording industry and go after [cable channel] BET, which plays a lot of those videos, as I gather it, you know, instead of just concentrating on Don Imus.
[...]
KONDRACKE: Look, he's on probation, and he should be on probation with everybody. If he continues this potty-mouthed, insulting, you know, semi-racist stuff in the future, then people should get off.
LIASSON: No, not semi-racist, it was racist.
KONDRACKE: Well, this was racist, but he -- I don't know that he has a record of a being a racist.
HUME: I don't -- his record -- I've seen efforts to try to construct a racist background, and it's a little skimpy.
LIASSON: Although, Gwen Ifill, I think. That was pretty racist. That was pretty bad.
HUME: The Gwen Ifill thing was pretty bad. He said of Gwen Ifill, our colleague Gwen Ifill, that when she was with The New York Times was covering the White House, that "The New York Times, what a great newspaper, it has the cleaning lady covering the White House."
LIASSON: I mean, that's awful. That's just simply awful.
HUME: That's on a par with this, I suppose.
LIASSON: Yeah.
As Media Matters for America has noted, Imus now disputes that account of his alleged comments about Ifill. However, a May 26, 2000, Washington Post article reported that "sometime around 1995, when the New York Times hired black journalist Gwen Ifill to cover the White House, Imus reportedly said: 'Isn't the Times wonderful? It lets the cleaning lady cover the White House.' " The article stated that Imus "doesn't deny the Ifill comment, but says he can't find a record of it," and added, "Whether he said it or not, Imus apologized to Ifill on the air after he was criticized."
The headline of this post sure is misleading. MMFA took three words from what Barnes said to make it look like he was trashing the Rutgers team. Unbelievable. Barnes' point was simply that Rutgers would be better off ignoring Imus and enjoying their successful season. Barnes even called them "winners." That's hardly a derogatory comment. This post by MMFA is absolutely ridiculous. What Kondracke said was absolutely correct as well. Black comedians and rappers often call black women "hos." Does anybody really deny this? The fact of the matter is that blacks denigrate their own race regularly. Kondracke was simply pointing that out.
What Kondracke pointed out was that "they" live in a certain community when he knows nothing about these women. He has no idea what these women find acceptable or not.
What he really did was show himself as just one more white man who believes all black people think as one entity and must go to some annual meeting in Harlem where they vote on what "they" are going to think and how "they" are going to act.
Well, cetrainly these cons think that all black people go to the same meeting in Harlem to get their talking points because that's what Republicans do. But maybe the cons are different in that their talking points are faxed to them.
I think "the blacks" all use SMS.
Shut up Rhino. "Blacks" do not denigrate Blacks regularly. Name one Black talk show host or journalist who denigrates Black women. Zero. As far as some gangsta rappers are concerned, their false consciousness was implanted, encouraged and rewarded by white racist industry. On top of the backbreaking burden of racism whites have already placed on our shoulders for generations, the Black community must also struggle to elevate the consciousness of a few well-promoted corporate-sponsored rappers despite the commercial rewards they receive from white America for modeling self-destructive behavior.
You are like a child. When called out for your own wrongdoing, you want to point the finger at others. I realize that you Bushites specialise in flawed logic, but dammm
If you don't see how insulting it is for a white man to be "pointing out" the failings of the black community, then I can't explain it to you.
As Bush's favorite philosopher once said, "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?"
"As Bush's favorite philosopher once said, "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye"
So now you're calling Jesus a philosopher? Wow. I guess it's ok to bash every religion except Christianity. It's amazing how that works.
Sorry. I said that wrong. I meant "I guess it's wrong to bash any religion except Christianity." Sorry about that.
Dude... I was quoting the President.
Ok. Sorry about that. I can't believe that Bush actually said that. That has to be one of the weirdest answers to that question I've ever heard of. But anyway, sorry for the mistake.
No prob. A lot of the things he said during the 2000 election made me think he was on medication. I don't know if he's gotten better since then or if we're just all used to him...
then you have not been paying attention the last seven years (longer really if you had been able to be aware he was one of Texas's worst govs too) so really you need to catch up to reality before your next snark attack that is based on lies, stupidity and horse droppings.
It's not wrong to bash any religion.
I think many people think of Jesus as a philosopher. How is that an insult or bashing? And I'm sure you call liberals too sensitive.
Rhino Hunter- I find your logic seriously flawed. This defense of Imus because some rappers use the word "ho" is beyond absurd.
"HO' in reference to women is completely degrading and insulting. And Don Imus and his producer used it in a manner to demean the Rutgers basketball team. It was not :funny". And as you've probably noticed they are quite pasty white. There was no "context" in rap or anything else for them to describe the woman basketball players in that manner.
Why do you seek out Media matters if you disagree with their approach? I have read your postings in response to other articles, and you criticize MM or the point of an article by MM.
This is just another example. It's pathetic that the talking points on the Fox news show in reference to the Rutgers team is chastising the team for meeting with Imus and saying they are behaving like victims.
Nice. I'm sure they are often demeaned in sexist and racist ways and can fully relate to what it feels like to be denigrated based on your skin color and gender.
Right?
Or maybe just maybe they missed the incredible class and grace the team is showing by agreeing to meet privately with Imus and share the way his language harmed them and continues to harm. And give him the opportunity to apologize. You think it may be the later?
"This defense of Imus because some rappers use the word "ho" is beyond absurd."
I'm not defending him. What he said was stupid and insulting. I'm simply saying that there is a larger overall issue here. That issue is that the use of words like "ho" to describe black women is becoming much more common throughout the U.S, especially in the black community. My point is that it's just as wrong for a black rapper to use the word "ho" as it is for Imus to use that word. I don't believe in double standards.
I think both are wrong, but if you can't see the difference between a rapper using the word and a 67-year-old white man using that same word to describe a black woman, let alone on television... well, again, I can't explain it to you.
That's the problem, there isn't a rulebook or a sign posted on the wall that says one group can say this and one group can't. I understand completely the offensiveness but if it's wrong, it's wrong for everyone. And who gets to decide what groups are exempt from criticism anyways? Who elected them the arbitor of truth on racial matters?
Again - and I'm not trying to be obtuse - if you don't get it I'm not sure I can explain it to you.
I guess in my case I have no desire to call people derogatory names in the first place, so it's an easy call. I mean, I tease my friends, but I generally stay away from things that aren't under their control (e.g. "that shirt looks wack" as opposed to "you're ugly").
That's right , Val. It is a matter of conscience. If one would not say such a thing to their mother or in church or among anything they hold dear, then they probably shouldn't say it at all.
That's where the decision is made, Bruce, in one's own heart.
Val,
I understand what you are saying, but Bruce has an excellent point. I realize that people in certain cultures and sub-cultures often use slang and derogatory terms against each other - it is more accepted and at times even endearing when used within a certain group. However, if an "outsider" uses the exact slur it is offensive and more hurtful - we all get that.
But that doesn't really excuse it in my book, it should still be condemned and shunned as part of any acceptable vernacular no matter who says it to whom. No good comes from any of it, it only coarsens us more and desensitizes us to such slurs when we hear them over and over.
Tommy, I hear you... my reaction to it, sensible or not is: Christ, we brought these people here in chains, brutalised them for generations and are still unequal-sentencing them and racially-profiling them - and on top of this we want to dictate what they can and can't call each other?
I mean, I have no disagreement with what you say about coarsening speech, but I kind of feel like it is a Black issue that the Black community has to work out on its own or not.
You know from reading my posts that I'm not a name caller, and I certainly would not use the kind of language that Imus used or even lesser slurs against anyone. I think "Idiot" or "Moron" might be about as far as I go and those aren't race-specific terms and they are generally terms people earn per their own comments. So I'm definitely on board with that. I just don't like the selective outrage.
I guess I can't see how outrage can be anything but selective.
I am more offended by white shock jocks using racially-loaded terms against young black women for yuks, because I want to see white Americans behave better than that.
It reminds me (and I am not saying you are accusing anyone of this Bruce) of the argument about "why do the leftists always protest America, why don't they protest Iran or whomever." Same reason. I expect more of my folks. Other people can be responsible for their own.
add to that America is using OUR money and OUR name to send more of our soldiers to kill and die in a war created from lies. So, yes that is the main target, I have no investment in Iraq, Iran or Syria (unlike Halliburton and Crash-cart Dick) so my protesting something there is mostly usless. But hey, repthug idiots hate facts.
This will be my last comment on the thread because to be honest I'm all Imus'ed out and probably will not be posting on any further Imus threads. But what I don't like about selective outrage is that it puts more emphasis on the "who" is saying it and less emphasis on the "what" is said, and the "what" is supposed to be the offensive part, not the "who". Does that make any sense?
Not really. I mean the emphasis of who said it is equal to what was said. The separation of the two is in your mind.
Really? So if I say "Democrats are clueless".........as opposed to a very liberal poster here, such as Redking saying "Democrats are clueless", would you treat us both with the same outrage?
Doubt it.
I thought he was saying just the opposite: that who says something cannot be separated from what is said.
Redking, IMHO, is very radical. Calling somebody 'very liberal' is like calling water 'very tepid.'
He did say that - I am saying that he definitely would react differently because of which one of us said it, me or Redking.
And you'd both be right, though probably for different reasons...
(ducks)
Most of the liberals who post here are pretty radical. It's just that RedKing is intellectually honest. He bashes the Dems for being weak and hypocritical. Most of the other liberals on this site just blindly follow the Democratic leadership. I respect RedKing for being intellectually honest, even though I disagree with him on pretty much every single issue.
I understand your point of view - however to me "radical liberal" is like "jumbo shrimp," or "military intelligence..." the words just don't go together!
"Really? So if I say "Democrats are clueless".........as opposed to a very liberal poster here, such as Redking saying "Democrats are clueless", would you treat us both with the same outrage?"
Outrage? No. I have been practicing the art of controlling and eliminating my negative emotions (I still have tons of work to do to achieve this goal.) So, I would make the best case I could to refute the claim, or I would ignore it.
If Thom Hartman were to say what Imus said I would have a greater feeling of disappointment because I have come to expect higher standards from Hartman. Still though, my disappointment in what was said would probably be proportional to who said it.
I hear ya on the Imus overload....and you make a good point. The selective outrage does smack of hypocrisy, and most people are guilty of it at times depending on what and who their sights are set on.
But I believe it goes to responsibility and remorse. Everybody can say something stupid and offensive at times, especially radio jocks who broadcast 20 hours of live radio every week. That being said, I think they should be ultimately judged by whether or not they take responsibilty for what they said, have genuine remorse for it, make a concerted effort not to repeat it, and do what it takes to try and rectify any damage done to the party to whom they offended.
If they do those things, that should be the end. All these "apology tours" that they have to do are ridiculous......catering to these "leaders" and cowtowing to their sensibilities is silly. Enough should be enough, time to move on.
Yeah, as far as what the man said, it is between him and the women he offended. I am personally far more outraged by the defense of what Imus said than by the original comments.
Ditto. I'm in the wait and see if he actually makes a real change in how he conduct some aspects of his show.
We need to be desensitized to those words! That way, we can all be one big family. We need to be more sensitive to lying politicians and war. Such controversy over this, but Bush tells us that cutting off war funding will only make the troops stay longer, and everyone on TV is puzzling over it without calling for an apology, or for him to be fired. Priorities!
"But that doesn't really excuse it in my book, it should still be condemned and shunned as part of any acceptable vernacular no matter who says it to whom. No good comes from any of it, it only coarsens us more and desensitizes us to such slurs when we hear them over and over." --tommy
Are you making a case for Political Correctness?
Hey Val!
I don't get it why people don't see the substance of your argument. I can say this, I am glad I was not born black in America. Like Chris Rock said there isn't a white man out there that would trade places with him and he is rich.
These guys are talking specifically about the Rutgers team's response to Imus. As I said in my earlier comment, neither you nor these talking heads have any idea what these women find acceptable or not. Imus called them out and they responded to him. If some rapper makes a song about the Rutgers team and calls them ho's and they don't say anything, then you will have been proven correct. Otherwise there is no double standard in this instance.
But Rino you’re missing the even BIGGER issue here: American popular culture has always been sexist, way before rap became mainstream and popular among upper class white males (those are the ones who buy rap CDs more than any other demographic in America based on recent statistics). If you go back and watch any old Western, Gangster film, Melodrama and Comedy from classic Hollywood, those films will reveal a huge amount of sexist behavior towards women. Even in the great wave of movies from the 60s and 70s exhibited some deplorable behavior by men beating, cursing and dominating their women. So to try to pin this simply on “rap music always carried this type of material” when you exclude that the overall Pop culture is misogynistic is very disingenuous in my opinion. Men have been calling their women “b*tches,” “c*nts,” “wh*res,” etc. far before Hip Hop music dominated the music world. Hip Hop isn’t the only genre of music that’s offensively sexist, materialistic, homophobic and rebellious. I think it’s tacky journalism to swift the blame on “Hip Hop” for bringing to light what SOME black men call their women, when movies, music, television, etc., have always given us the glimpse of certain sections in lower society that someone overly-privileged never heard of. Rap music is no more sexist, materialistic and homophobic than a Martin Scorsese and Quentin Tarantino movie. And for every “ho” that a black man calls his wife or girlfriend, there’s an equally sexist remark made by their Asian, White and Latino brethren. Then again black men have always been stereotyped as the "savaged beast" so it's A-Okay with so many of these pundits. All popular entertainment is driven by sensationalism and crude entertainment. Hip Hop isn’t the birth of obscenities and for these journalists to act as if America before Hip Hop was like an episode of “Leave It To Beaver” is pretty lame. Before Hip Hop pundits and writers blamed the decline of America “apple pie” values on Elvis and his love for “Negro music” which was viewed as primitive and savagely expressive; faster forward four decades later it was grunge that was influencing our youth to act out in haphazardly; now all the blame is placed right smack in the lap of Hip Hop.
This is what happens when you have the media that’s predominately white and middle of the road, with no single minority view point to education and remind others who try to swift the blame solely on people of color and their behavior, rather than recognizing that we as a country have an issue with misogyny and flawed misconception of what makes a man really a man. And then when you do have intelligent whites who can challenge such a view point like (perhaps like Media Matter’s very own Eric Alterman), you’ll never see them because they’re pegged to be “too far left.” Mainstream Media is a complete disgrace.
That's a good post Preston_P.
Thanks Roundhouse!
"That issue is that the use of words like "ho" to describe black women is becoming much more common throughout the U.S, especially in the black community."
Is it??? I hear a lot of people defending Imus saying this, but is there any proof? Sales of rap music are WAY down. A popular rapper named Nas even titled his last album "Hip Hop is Dead" in reference to the dropping sales.
http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?section=entertainment&id=5082035
I know a lot of black people, and not a single one uses the term "ho's". Ever. This notion that the term is common in the "black community" is coming from ignorant people whose only exposure to black people in any way is through rap music. Those people PERCEIVE that words like "ho" are common terms when they are not in my opinion.
oh, but they say it in MOVIES, so that must mean...something?
The point of people saying rappers say hos isn't to say that black people use the word to call each other in face to face conversation like the n word is, but that when it is uttered in a song, it does not make national news. The rapper is not called upon to be fired, to apologize or to explain himself. In fact, many black people listen to it happily. Are you going to tell me many black people do not enjoy rap music? Are you calling them sexist or racist for enjoying these lyrics? To me that is more prejudiced than Imus' comment. Don't you see my logic? Racial tensions are not caused by comedians and shock jocks. The offense that was taken is a symptom of another disease, that racism still exists, and that powerful white conservatives still harm blacks by secretly calculating ways to keep blacks from gaining wealth, voting, breeding more than whites. Look at the prisons, filled with many minorities who never got a fair trial. There was a Texas scandal involving a racist judge unfairly sentencing a rebelliious young black high school student. That should be making the waves that this is. Guys like that give white guys a bad name, and then we can't use words like Nappy or Hos in jest without being unfairly judged.
Rhino-
Yes, it's wrong for rappers. I don't buy their stuff. And many in the black community have been speaking out against their crap for years.
I agree with you I don't beleive in double standards either.
People who truly believe that all races and sexes are equal treat everyone the same. If a non bigoted person happens to think insult comedy is funny, like I do, we joke about and call everyone names regardless of historical problems. Its not nice to intentionally hurt feelings, but adults are expected to be able to sort out humor from an attack. Besides, I am a liberal and I don't get hurt whenever O'Reilly calls me names.
"The headline of this post sure is misleading."
Yeah. Here are other Barnes quotes that could have been used instead of the "misleading" "[Rutgers team] acted like victims":
Barnes: "I don't care what [Imus] said."
Barnes says efforts to portray Imus' racism are "skimpy".
Barnes "Hos" remark doesn't taint (Rutgers) team at all."
No this article is not ridiculous. Kondrake DID say they acted like victims. I dont believe that is a fair characterisation. The fact he also said good things about them doesnt make his mischaracterisation exempt from criticism.
"The fact of the matter is that blacks denigrate their own race regularly. Kondracke was simply pointing that out."
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The fact of the matter is that SOME AAs do this and they are DEAD WRONG. It's wrong regardless of who does it. WE are not hos and bitches. We are mothers, daughters, aunts, wives, etc. If you and the rappers-comedians you cite would think of us like you think of your own female family members or think of how you would feel if someone characterized those family members in such a way you would not attempt to defend this non-sense. I am a human being just like your wife, mother, whatever and I have conducted myself well in life and I have earned the right to be respected by my community and MY community consists of YOU, IMUS, FIFTY CENTS, CHRIS ROCK, ETC. It is wrong no matter who does it. That's the fact of the matter RINO, and I'm stunned that a good Christian Conservative is attrempting to defend this.
That's right, Lynn. You are beautiful, strong and smart and deserve to be treated as such.
It's this conservative culture-it's on the left too; but not so much, that does not respect women. They attribute weakness and fearfulness to femininity. You've heard the junk phrases: feminization of America, Feminazis etc. All I can say is they most likely have never witnessed the epic strength it takes to deliver a child. They have not encountered the ferocity of a mother protecting her child.
I just don't understand why men think it makes them appear stronger to denigrate women. Most every culture that invests in the empowerment of women through education, healthcare and equal rights flourishes economically and stabilizes peacefully. Why is this? Because women are more than baby incubators they are the cultural keepers of wisdom. It's just counterproductive to be a tough guy.
The first line you wrote there was...far more offensive to women than Imus.
That's right Lynn....was offensive?
Hey Round it was a childish dig at me. He lashed out at me and Pearlene both yesterday. This Jack guy is either very young or very much a jerk. I'm not sure which. It seems to be the immature and the jerkish that really get insult humor; but Jack seems pretty harmless so let's just let him have fun sparring with the adults.
Did you mean this line?
"You are beautiful, strong and smart and deserve to be treated as such."
All women are all of the above. The problem is that immature little jerks, have yet to open their eyes, ears and hearts. Come back after you've grown up.
I am obviously wiser. I don't put people above others. I don't think that "good christians" or women are expected to behave better or be treated better than others.
Who said anything about Christians?
Everyone male or female, black or white, deserves to be treated with respect and dignity. Anyone who thinks otherwise has no right to every complain if something is said or done to his or her, mother, father, sister, brother, wife, husband, son or daughter.
This has nothing to do with any religious beliefs and everything to do with being part of a civilized society.
I'm going to assume that your comment, "I am obviously wiser", was that you understand what we're trying to say, not that you think you are wiser.
Only a fool thinks showing disrespect towards others is a sign of "wisdom".
No, everyone deserves to be made fun of. We are all ridiculous. I am a fan of SOUTH PARK, MIND OF MENCIA, SIMPSONS, HOWARD STERN, ANDREW DICE CLAY, MONTY PYTHON, FAMILY GUY, CURB YOUR ENTHUSIASM, JIMINY GLICK. I am opposed to sensitivity training, thought police, political lies, censorship, language, and double standards.
You know the only people who gets talked to with nothing but with respect? Fascist regimes, dictators, extortionists, bookies, and crazy people. Why? You never know how they can and will hurt you for what they say about them.
No race will ever escape satire, even if racism is fully eradicated. In fact, once racism is eradicated, god willing, everyone will be making fun of each other non stop.
Guys like Carlos Mencis and Imus have done more, by speaking their minds, to eradicate racism than the most sensitive respect monger.
Where is all of this coming from?
I responded to your attack on Lynn. I pointed out how insensitive it is and tried make a point about how you probably wouldn't want someone talking this way about someone you love.
You might like all of those people that you mentioned, but with many, I think you miss their point. The Pythons never attacked anyone who didn't deserve to have a pin stuck in their ballooned egos. And the person who suffers most on "Curb Your Enthusiasm" is Larry David. He is always shown to be a complete ass and in the end he's usually treated as a pariah by everyone else.
I have nothing against using words to make a point and to poke fun, but some like Richard Pryor and Lenny Bruce used the words as surgical instruments, to cut to the heart of what's wrong. My problem is with people who use the words as blunt instruments to bludgeon. In this case that's what Imus did. He was wrong. He f_cked up.
Maybe its wrong to judge smeone based on their sense of humor. Did you ever think that it is not important what people think is funny, rather whether they promote racial inequality?
I didn't attack Lynn. My point was that putting women on a higher pedestal than others with such prose is in fact promotes inequality. To say "You are beautiful, strong and smart and deserve to be treated as such" implies there are people who deserve more respect than others based on sex. Then you prove my point by saying "All women are all of the above."
When this Imus thing came out, people were saying that because they were, "daughters", "women", "winners", "athletes", "proud", "smart", "brave", "heroes" ---they did not deserve ridicule, even in jest. OK, so who do our shock jocks and comedians get to poke fun at? People who are lower than them?
Likewise, I find it to be offensive that the Lacrosse players were said to be "hard working" "Diligent" and that was used to say that it was wrong to suspect them.
Al Sharpton is saying now because the Basketball players were "young" and "students" and that is partially why Imus must be held accountable. He's citing "jiggaboos versus wannabes" without crediting Spike Lee's movie, blaming the white man for coming up with it. A black man on MSNBC is now saying that because these "young women" in the past would have been "used and abused as slaves," that THAT is why Imus was out of line. Sure. It's the president of BET. Some really classy language about race on that channel!Nothing will stop the desensitisation of society to words and racial jokes. It is inevitable, because we are all becoming one family, not a nation of races.
So then in YOUR world this
The fact of the matter is that SOME AAs do this and they are DEAD WRONG.
Is far more offensive than calling them nappy headed ho's. You have clearly lost all touch with reality.
That's right, Lynn. You are beautiful, strong and smart and deserve to be treated as such.
My mistake you meant THIS line
That's right, Lynn. You are beautiful, strong and smart and deserve to be treated as such.
You have still lost all touch with reality
Way to be condescending towards women. As if they are too fragile to be mocked. As if blacks are more fragile than whites or jews and can not be mocked. Same thing.
Mr Rino Hunter....it's interesting what YOU deem to be non-issue....(and I'll quote what you said),,,,
No, Mr. Rino Hunter (RH) Winners are just that...winners. But what you don't seem to understand is what Imus said & what the white panelist are trying to discount is the use of a comment that, to most black folks, we put on the same level as the "N" word.
This crap has been prevalent as a term that "should" be overlooked(by FOX specifically) by all viewers & listeners of Imus' show as if this doesn't strike a cord from anyone's standpoint. (I suggest you click on the links provided by MMFA so you may see some of the comments this sicko has said over the years & I ask you again, we're suppose to overlook this kind of bunk)
Well, it DOES strike a cord & IS an issue.
I will also say that black folks need to address the use of these words & terms in the broadest sense so attitudes & ideals are clear in everybody's mind as to what is right & wrong to say or express. Until that happens, certain broadcasters(Imus, Savage & Rush) and/or citizens will always feel as if there has been no harm/ no foul.
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God Almighty! Someone finally tickled my intelligence bone!
What Don Imus said was stupid and he's apologized. For black activists to turn it into Gone With The Wind is ridiculous! When I heard that the acting White House press secretary had weighed in on it, I knew we were all screwed!
I want to know where Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson have been while young, black hustlers have been selling a culture of violence and mysoginy toward black women these past 15-20 years. Watch a video on any of the music video channels and you'll find one African-American-themed video with romance and repsect and 10 that show the same thug idiots with their "grilles" all covered in gold, gang-signing the camera and trying to pose for the camera through the wall of scantily-clad black girls who are working their booties in the most vulgar ways possible.
The lyrics talk of beatings, sex, drugs, mistresses, estranged children, jigolo and pimp lifestyles...kind of a black country music come to think of it!
The only person I know of who actually tried to use market forces successfully against this kind of hate and crap was Bill O'Reilly when he said people should boycott rapper Ludicris' involvement with Pepsi. And it apparently worked because Pepsi dropped Ludricris as a spokes-hater. Pisses me off because I can't stand O'Reilly, but he was able to do something that none of these black opportunist activists have done.
I watched Maya Angelou lecture Dave Chapelle to stop using the "n" word in his comedy. Chapelle looked like a little kid in the pricipal's office because his excuses sounded silly when held up to an intelligent person one-on-one. He tried saying it was a result of his street experience growing up and she wasn't having any of it. He was embraressed and he admitted that it was wrong and he would try to change it.
How come Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton aren't protesting and marching and holding "meetings" with these crude hip-hop idiots? I can see it now: Jesse Jackson holds a "meeting" with Suge Knight, whereby the cranky president of Death Row records dangles Mr. Jackson out of a 10-story window by his ankles.
An old, feeble white guy who has contributed his time, money and radio show to more charities and foundations and forces for good in all our communities slips up and he's being crucified, vilified and buried. Know why? Cause he's white and should have known better and until the black community stops accepting a laughable, vicitmized double-standard, things will be as they've always been.
There'll be a white-backlash against this. It's already started on the right-wing radio talker shows today.
Imus told Matt Lauer today that the Gwen Ifill comment was "during the Reagan Administration", which would make it at least 18.5 years old. But now, according to Hume, Ifill wasn't at the White House for the New York Times until the mid 90s, perhaps as recently as ten years ago. So Imus was trying to mislead people into thinking it was ancient history, when in gact it's part of a pattern over a decade or more.
White conservatives just can't help pointing out that "The Blacks" do it too. So predictable and pathetic.
I have to agree with Rino Hunter on one point -- the headline IS misleading.
No it isnt. Did he or did he NOT say they acted like victims. Yes he did. Ipso facto, it is NOT a misleading headline.
Good Lord! These guys can't comment on a racist, sexist remark without making even more racist, sexist remarks. Do people think middle class African-American college women really live in a culture where "ho" is an acceptable term? Yikes. It shows how unbelievably out of touch the inflated heads of the media have become in this tin-ear era.
This could set off weeks of exposure for the pathetically low standards of discourse that clog the airways these days. The loathsome comments of many more media blowhards should now get the attention they so richly deserve. And about time, too.
A lot of people (black and white) do think we (black males) talk to women this way because that's all they see.
The only exposure some people (black and white) have to black culture is rap music....and not like Mos Def, Roots, Nas etc.
Now all we need is for Maureen Dowd to chirp, "And they throw like girls."
I don't believe there's ANY group of people who've been spared from Imus' so-called sense of humor over the years. And, I'll bet none of these girls even knew who Imus was prior to his comment. He also should have never gone sucking up to Sharpton. I think he should apologize and set up a scholarship at Rutgers with some of his millions.
Really, as if this ONE man's comments can in ANY WAY compare to the MISOGYNISTIC, HOMOPHOBIC and SELF-LOATHING lyrics in some rap/hip-hop songs. If the response to such songwriters had ever been as intense as it's been to Michael Richards and now Imus, then some of these denouncers might have a leg to stand on, otherwise they're just hypocrites.
PC is often carried too far. Some of my friends have commented when I say Black, but I refuse to use the term African-American or Asian-American, simply because I think it's wrong. Unless you were born there and moved here, YOU'RE NOT HYPHENATEABLE! If you're born here you are an AMERICAN, plain and simple. Charlize Theron, a VERY white woman would be accurate in saying that she's African, because she was born and raised there. And, if she becomes a US citizen, she could legitimately call herself African-American.
My personal opinion is, if I want to call myself Italian-American, I do, and if I feel offended by someone's comments, I express it.
I don't tell other people what they are allowed to get offended by and what to call themselves. Can't see how it's any of my business.
But maybe that's just me.
"Really, as if this ONE man's comments can in ANY WAY compare to ... some rap/hip-hop songs."
You're right. The comments from Imus were much, much worse.
the bigger point is that media matters headline is MISLEADING. this was a clear compliment on barnes part saying that the team should simply move on from this and regard his marks as what they are: an old man making a insensative remark that was meant to be funny but in reality was sexist and somewhat racist. i think he is trying to say that imus remarks are just that of a shock jock who shouldnt be taken serious, and that if they do thats fine but that these women have accomplished so much, why bother evening wasting time with someone who offended them and knows nothing about them? this isnt 'conservative misinformation" this just a blatent attempt to make more out of an issue that should be dead by now. just because it comes from fox newss it becomes an issue that this guy said this, this was a compliment in every sense of the word. and u know hwat? HO is a commonly announced term that is thrown around, a white guy saying that doesnt make the statement WRONG. and listen, this guy kondrake is not totally in tune with things but he gets the idea, he knows what he hears, hes not saying that it was ok for imus, he just is mearly pointing out the hypocracy of things. its a silly argument since sharpton has talked against the rappers and such, but not nearly the stink that has been raised over imus. yeah, maybe he has done news conferences, but they sure havnt been made a big deal by him, he usually would be the one to seek attention. overall, the rest of the panal seemed pretty inline with mainstream thought about the issue
Its NOT misleading he DID say it. They cited all the things he said including his main point. Its not UP to Kondrake how THEY ought to feel about being insulted when Kondrake is insulted by Imus THEN he gets to make that judgement. The headline points out a mischaracterisation Kondrake DID make.
and im not sayting that media matters doesnt have a point with the article, im just saying that the headline is misleading when the central point is that hume said that imus doesnt have a history of racial comments
which, as normal for Bit, is a lie.
The headline is misleading and I'm deeply disappointed - FOX needs no help in making themselves look like a fool - And the guy who was quoted certainly needs no more help-
The guy made a good point - They are winners, why let it get to them - Are we not talking about a sports team? Since when didn't sports teams get insulted? Racially, aesthetically or whatever, insults abound in the world of sports. But since a white man said a comment that he believed to be witty at the time, and later said it was a horrible mistake, all the sudden these girls feel as if they have been scarred for life? Give me a break. How can you play sports and not be able to take an insult. How can you live a life in which you let an insult run it?
Should Imus be fired or severely reprimanded - Absolutely -
Should these women who made it to the championship game, brush him to the side? Absolutely! But they didn't - I just got done watching a news conference about it - They are playing the victim card, and frankly I think its worse for them to do that. They aren't the only ones who get insulted. And blacks aren't the only ones who get insulted. How many times have we heard about white guys not playing basketball - And why? Because they are white - The rutgers team wasn't even all black, and Imus did say the Tennessee girls were cute. It obviously wasn't meant to be directed at black women basketball players, merely a team he didn't want to win.
I'm as liberal/progressive as they come - but this irritates me -
And to the people who say a white guy can't say the same things that a black guy says - Well, I don't know - I see you're point, but I don't agree. That's discrimination - But of course, who cares about people discriminating against white people, because whitey got it all right?
Even though the largest race in poverty is whites, its still white guys are "the man" and all other races can trash them as much as they want - It's time to stop the gross generalizations and bring it to the individual levels - Racism is alive and well in America today, because nobody calls anyone but white people out on it - (yeah I know - that's not entirely accurate, but you get my point)
btw - It's interesting that Sharpton (the guy who accused an innocent man 33 times of being a racist and rapist without ever apologizing) is the one to take up the vocal opposition to Imus - And Jesse Jackson of course weighed in... But nobody said anything when he said "Its a known fact white guys love black women" during the lacrosse team scandal- How much more racist can you get?
"Racism is alive and well in America today, because nobody calls anyone but white people out on it"
Yes, I see. It's only because white people are called-out for their racism that racism is alive and well. If only we ignored the white racists, then racism in America would simply shrivel-up and die.
Who are Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton?
Why should black America care about them?
Thank you in advance
jking good points that i generally agree about. although i agree imus should be punished, i dont think anyone should fire him unless the company believes hes become to much of a FINACIAL liability. and ur right, insults happen all the time in the sports world and in life, but i feel that insults come from another place rather than racism, which comes from a hatred and belief that a certain race is inferior, where a mean comment comes from one trying to make a point and needs to point out the difficiancys to do so. imus messed up, he wil serve time and pay for it. he was clearly makeing a comment to make fun of rutgers, who he thought looked like thugs, it is what it is, i feel bad for the women, but they should be strong and take things in stride, imus is in a totally different world then they, they need not worry about him.
It's sad, but it is clear that everyone at Fox is playing every game they can to NOT see how foul this was. KONDRACKE and BARNES are two idiots. I tire of seeing Fox put on Caucasians who lack ANY character or compassion when something foul happens or is said about African Americans. Kondracke comes up with Black men speak to their women like that? Since when was he a black man...or lived in our skin to know how we feel about it? Not every man of color embraces such foulness. Bigger than that...Imus' words did affect those girls. Racism is nasty and their are still those who feel such in their hearts,. So what they haven't had a history...that man is too old to have JUST formed that in his mind. He has felt such for a long time. I have watched the show and he has said other nasty things...he has to go. I also feel Hume and anyone else who dares to try and belittle how nasty this was should be dealt with accordingly
Racist propaganda.
Valentinian - I knew I shouldn't have put that in there, because obviously someone will pull out their progressive guidebook and point out to me that progressives aren't supposed to hold that particular view - So therefore I couldn't possibly be a real liberal/progressive - Sorry that I'm not fitting into your mold of what progressives "should" say -
No, I just never saw anyone but a troll say "I'm as liberal (or as progressive, or as liberal/progressive) as they come."
My feeling is, if you have an opinion, just express it. Don't try and cover it with some political label, like all we do here is sit around and sniff each other's bona fides.
Yeah I get it valentinian - You got your insult in - And now you're backtracking and claiming your assumptions nullify your stupid remarks - you're a good guy buddy -
And I really love the assumption that no white guy (especially if he's old) has the right to give their views on black culture - Of course, anyone can give their views about white culture and we are supposed to listen and take from it and learn from it (absolutely) - But if a white guy, or even worse, an old white guy talks about it - whoa nelly - what a racist -
Well, that's a very progressive point of view, certainly.
How isn't it - ?
I have to say though - 1 liners full of sarcasm certainly does seem trollish to me - But I guess that's just because I'm some misguided guy who isn't allowed to take from his own life experiences and lay out rationally why he feels a certain way while still affiliating himself with a particular ideology and political movement -
You're a winner Valentinian - Its so obvious by your condescension -
I'm just trying to figure out why you feel so strongly about identifying yourself with a political orientation you don't seem to agree with in any particular. And not just "liberal", not just "progressive," but "as liberal/progressive as anyone."
You can call yourself anything you want, obviously, I just can't understand why you want to. I mean, I could call myself a potato if I wanted to, but...
Wow man - I have a certain view about discrimination - My view is basically that discrimination is discrimination no matter who says it. In my life, I have been discriminated against a lot for being white, and I rarely ever hear people talk about that, or if they do talk about it, someone such as yourself will come around and say that person is either a racist themselves or doesn't understand the dynamics of the diversity we live in. I'm young (mid twenties), so I never saw what it was like back in the day, only what it was like being the white guy on the bus in the 80's and 90's. It tainted me a little - I saw a perspective that many other people apparently don't. I feel rather strongly about it, even if it confuses and confounds me at times too. But it has NOTHING to do with my political ideology. Scratch that, it does have something to do with it:
I believe in social justice as best I know it. I believe in a form of wealth distribution, unions, universal health care, more than two political parties, regulation, a major over-haul of our educational system and prisons... I believe in most of the environmental causes that I've come across, I happen to be a Nader admirer, and my foreign policy ideas are aimed at helping other countries instead of bombing them to ensure security for the whole world and not just the U.S. --- I could go on and on, but I hope you get my point. I'm rather progressive/liberal. I was raised that way too - I helped unionize the job I'm in right now by going to the capitol and lobbying on behalf of my coworkers, by protesting outside corporate offices. I march in peace parades etc... That's what I am... But when it comes to people talking about racism, I tend to get very very irritated. Because when I'm in school and we learn about "diversity" I constantly hear how bad white people are. I hear how I should be ashamed of my heritage, and most other races/ethnicities should be proud of theirs. Do I get too caught up in it sometimes? Yeah, probably. Do I truly feel that what some white people did was horrible, yes! But I'm tired of hearing how bad I am, and I don't think it accomplishes much at all. Maybe I'm dead wrong. Maybe I'm blinded by my own biases, maybe... But I'm telling you where I'm coming from, and I'm speaking truthfully. I'm tired of being made out to be the bad guy.
And when I'm told I can't play ball, or I can't dance, or I'm a honky or cracker, and nobody says anything but instead just laughs - Well I feel just about as alienated as I imagine a black guy must have felt when he was the only black guy on the bus.
I am NOT comparing my life or anyone that lives today to the lives of those who suffered back in the day. I'm just trying to explain my frustrations. And for a group of people who claim to be open, I got pretty irritated with how close-minded some of the responses were.
I predicted it to an extent, and that's why I said I'm as liberal as they come. Because in my pov, I am. I was merely trying to let people know that others that usually agree 90 percent of the time can have a different viewpoint on this topic. That's all -
Why isnt anyone asking the women if they have any rap cds , in which the so called artists refer to women as hoes , or worse.
Because the possibility that they actually might not have any of those cds would make that person look like the biggest a--hole in the media now.
Sure. Ask if they have CDs by a well-known and influential white, male artist that calls black female basketball players 'nappy-haired hoes'.
I do agree with Barnes that the Rutgers basketball team should not meet with Imus. If someone called Imus's wife a whore, I doubt that she would meet with him to try and understand his remark.
Don Imus is way too old to use "rappers" as his excuse or even use "the culture" as his excuse. Imus's culture is the one HE grew up in, the one where all black people were routinely demeaned by white men.
Lets see which big Democratic politicians still want to go on his show. Probably the "independent Democrat" (Lieberman) but thats about all.
How absurd for 3 out of touch old geezers to comment on anything except the price of Viagra.
It's too late to save or to change creatures like Mortina and Brittany Hume -- they are flawed and pathetic people. They cannot even be gracious enough to shut up.
Here's one person's response to this new report:
To: FOX NEWS SPECIAL EDITION
Subject: let's see...who has had the most money to procure "hos" historically, execs at BET or those at FOX?
White men talking about race and gender...it couldn't be more dim-witted. Why can we expect that Fox News at all levels has such a shallow approach to journalism and news coverage? You have co-hosts or guests talking about "hos" being the usual for the black recording industry or black men, but you have no sense that white owners and producers have consistently pressured black singers and groups to take this route. You don't talk about the pervasive way that society holds women and girls, and how this then becomes mirrored in various cultural groups within the society that models it. Take a look at the billboards on your way home. How many of them sell products with sex appeal and women as commodities? How many rich, rich white men access women of color across the globe for purchased services of every demeaning kind, eroticizing the "exotic" other? That a group of young women would feel like victims is not surprising after such a comment as Imus'. Can you imagine how much more erroneous commentary they have had to endure on top of his expressed racism which merits him a very big salary and a 2-week vacation and hand slap? You don't even get that his comment drops into a mileau that meets it and deepens it, and this is what institutionalized, systemic racism and sexism and adultism look like? Those young women have to get wind of your inept journalism on top of what they heard from him. You are proof positive why one young woman can be scarred for life by what happened. Why is it that just about every woman I know has been raped, and none of the men I know have ever done it to a woman? It's the same thing. For one minute take a little more sensitivity to what you would want your daughters exposed to within hours of such a great achievement of their skills and hard work. You would be darn disappointed too and feel like they didn't deserve to have their bubbles of glory burst in such a way so quickly. Get a heart and some compassion, and a little deeper analysis wouldn't hurt -- perhaps your news would be a world better. Disappointed Viewer___________________ I doubt really that they are visiting Imus to understand his comment. I admire them for going to dialogue directly. That is in the spirit of non-violent social change. It takes moral character and integrity to do so. Maybe some of it will rub off.YOU are racist and sexist. LOOK IN THE MIRROR. You became what you hate.
With all respect to people who post comments here I want to say something that has been bugging me these last few days about this whole Imus situation.It is astonishing to me how many MALES of another race can be such experts on what goes on in the Black community.Since most of the people who seem to know so much,also seem to be finanancially secure and the only relation ship they have with the black community,is what they read or see on t.v Do these guys live in the community? I doubt it.
Someone else already made the comment that it was assumptive and racist to assume that the Rutgers team is automatically part of the "black community."
There are white players on that team, btw.
the women on this team are all less than 21 years old. they have, throughout this entire incident, shown grace and maturity, clear thinking, and a sense of decency that kondracke, barnes and the entire hate spewing fox noise roster will never know or care anything about. the political discourse in this country is now so poisoned by the hacks, quacks, phonies and frauds on the right that this idiotic statement by a 65 year old shock jock past his time has become, predictably enough, an excuse for every conservative to whine they are being picked on by the "liberal media". fox noise at its outrageous, lying, slanted worst.
The furor over this incident is fraught with hypocrisy. Imus is a shock jock and people who actually KNOW his shtick know that he and his crowd constatly dip into the vernacular. Like it or not, the expression he used is part of it. Google for hiphop songs that contain the word 'ho' and you'll get a list numbering over a thousand. There's a beauty salon in Manhatten called 'My Nappy Hair'. Imus got the phrase, repulsive as it is, from popular culture.
What Imus said was wrong, wrong, wrong. But to listen to the 'outrage' of people like Sharpton and Jackson is too much for me. And to see the media types who are putting this at the top of every broadcast, day after day after day, is predictable and pathetic. Is there a war going on?? Are people still being tortured?? Are Limbaugh and O'Reilly and Gibson still spouting their racist, anti-Hispanic/anti-Muslim bigotry on a daily basis???
The hypocrisy of this whole thing is nauseating.
Are you saying because a relative few songs have the word "ho" in them the black community should accept the word?
Are you going to continue ignore the fact that Imus's producer called the girls which is on par with the n word?
Also, when did "shock jock" become an excuse for classic racist like Imus who has a documented HISTORY of RACIALLY demeaning black women?
Thank you in advance
Relatively few????????????
Well, I don't think that the word 'ho' is as "relatively uncommon" in the hip hop community as you imply....it really permeates the music, which is the biggest representative of blacks in the overall popular culture, like it or not.
Do I find it acceptable to see demeaning, degrading terms used to describe women??? I detest it. But I repeat my original point: those terms and phrases are out there, they are part of the vernacular and I have seen more 'outrage' expressed in the past week, than in the last 10 years overall.....things seem to have reached fever pitch because this time, the ugly words were uttered by a caucasian shock jock .. IT'S WRONG ON ALL COUNTS.
To see Sharpton and Jackson inserting themselves into this as the moral arbiters of the day would be laughable if it weren't so pathetic. Their "outrage" would be a lot more believable, seem far more genuine and less self-serving, if they had expressed it this intensely, had asked for the same sanctions etc., over the past decade as they have over the past week.
"the ugly words were uttered by a caucasian shock jock"
Gee, you think?? You think maybe because Imus, who happens to be white, and is an extremely influential and widely-listened-to national, politically-charged media figure involved with two giant broadcast conglomerates, that it might have something to do with the furor it's caused?
Dave, Imus is very visible, but his ratings have been pretty rough this decade compared to last. I very much doubt the average joe on the street would even know who he was before this controversy. To say he is "extremely influential" is exagerrating to say the least.
I'm sure this news will make you feel better, because I know you wouldn't want such a hateful person to be popular.
"To say he is "extremely influential" is exagerrating to say the least."
Oh, sure! That's why presidential candidates announce their candidacies on his show. That's why famous writers hawk their books on his show, and watch as their book sales subsequently rise. Because he's not extremely influential.
Get a clue.
I acknowledged visible. Compare the ratings, my friend.
I have said this once and I will say it again"this thing is bigger than AL sharptonand/or Jesse Jackson",do you think they have the power to have the couple of advertisers to drop their sponsorship of this program?I don't think so.To also add another prospective I understand that Mr.Imus was the one who asked for the time on Sharptons radio show.Sharpton and Jackson although visible in this are being used to deflect the real story here.
The women of the Rutgers team are not victims. WE have a lot to learn from them. I saw a clip this morning where the captain of the team asked where was the media when they were making history on the basketball court . Shw said they were nit responding to an individual but an issue. Unlike Mr Barnes they are willing to get all the facts before making final judgement. I think Sharpton and Jackson should take a page from their book.
I think the larger issue covering all of this is that racist and sexist comments are not dealt with across the board. Freedom of speech, completely (except for fire in a theater), or no. We have to decide. If Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson aren't going to go after rap, hip/hop etc. as harshly as they go after Imus, there will always be hard feelings, and that will in turn create MORE racist feelings. Racism breeds from distrust, ignorance and injustice...on both sides.
The fact that we have major debates about racism these days is really ridiculous..the matter has been discussed and talked to death so much these days. Either everyone shrugs it off (unless it's institutionalized, like segregated water fountains) or everyone is taken to task for it.
Thanks MM for showing how media totally mis-represents someones comment. Your headline "acted like victims" when posted this way elicites an emotional response of rage, however when you read the SAME WORDS in context it give it a whole new meaning. Thus MM you've showed us your just as bad as most other media in your pathetic attempt at persuasion.
Here is most of the text Barnes said: "....I think they make one huge mistake, and that is going to meet with Don Imus. They don't need to meet with him. They ought to flick him off like a mosquito and move on and be proud, instead of acting as they did today. They acted like victims. They're winners. They should act like winners."
Cheers
"when you read the SAME WORDS in context it give it a whole new meaning."
No it doesn't. That he said they were "winners" doesn't excuse the fact he said "they acted like victims".
What gives Barnes the authority to determine how people should "act like winners"? He's saying the equivalent of what the sudden influx of posters have been saying since this hit; "Get over it"
Personally, I think a loser like Barnes is one of the least qualified to decide what acting like a winner is. Did you hear him after the most recent elections?
get a clue, it was his opinion of the situation that i happen to agree with, they are winners and they shouldnt let this bring them down, its dissapointing if they do drag this out and make the big story what this old fart said rather than them being in the chapianship game (which they lost, otherwise if nothing was said most of you wouldnt even know rutgers had a ladies bball team, let alone a team that went to the final four, and who won? o tennessee but most people dont care ether way) if someone calls me names, i think nothing of them. the opposite of love is not hate, because it means you actually care what the person says to you, no the best they can do is just treat him like NOTHING because up until this moment he was NOTHING to them and their lives. and after this moment he should mean nothing as well, they dont need to acknowledge someone like imus, but they are, and they will continue to, which will just play this whole thing out for more time until the media gets bored. the end
but that is what i would do, and they are choosing this comment to make aware other issues they find need to be adressed. so its their choice, wahtever. on another note, people dont seem to be taking this entire issue into context, because after viewing what he said and why he said it, it actually comes across like the man was tying a pop-culture saying coming from an old spike lee movie (suprising they even knew what the damn movie was) to the girls bball teams, ie tenn was one group the rutgers team was another and he was just comparing the two teams to the two opposining factions in a spike lee movie, a small, little known spike lee movie that im suprised any of them knew or heard about, let alone be able to find a link between them and the girls college bball teams. im suprised actually
I no doubt believe Imus may be sorry for what he did, and sincerely thought he was trying to be funny, but as an African American, incidents such as these just show we have a long way to go in becoming one nation, not one of races, classes, and ideologies.Don, you may be a good person, and you surely might be from your charity work, but in the end you cannot be absolved from you utterly stupid comment.Just because rappers say “ho” and other derogatory language does not make it right. In fact, they are just as stupid as Imus, even moreso, but no woman, black or white deserves those words said onto them.
Imus picked on a vulnerable group of women, who have done nothing wrong or pur themselves out there besides just going out and playing a basketball game.
I don't know some people can continue to justify this, especially from the mouths of white men, who still hold much of the power in this country.
Anthony - [link to oriolepost.blogspot.com<]
BTW, to any of the posters who have shown up here in the last few days, obviously directed here by some link or campaign; Were you encouraged to use the "Rappers say Ho" line, and were you told that would be a strong argument?
The KKK use to lynch people and burn crosses all the time. SO what is the problem if I do it?
Are you saying hip-hop is the same as KKK?
No I was trying and exreme analogy. I guess I didn't make my point clear enough for you. I do hope you understand what I was trying to say in some way though. I make no excuses for the negative influences in the hip hop community, but many are trying to say that because there are a few (too many if you ask me) crude member of the population they should be allowed to represent that entire population.
Do the Rushs, Savages and Coulters represent the entire white community?
BTW
The entire hip hop culture can't be pegged into on definitive category. There are plenty of positive artist out there, but bad news makes news. For every "ying yang twins" there is a "Roots".
Monk, don't try analogies with conservatives. They pride themselves on black and white, very literal thinking. Abstractions get them very confused.
LOL. First, not a "conservative", but that's just Huntington's name for someone who disagrees with him. Second, analogies by definition should be a sensible parallel instead of a nonsensical abstract. If you passed 9th grade english, you would have to replace "Hip-Hop" for "KKK" in the analogy. Next.
dexteritas, thanks for supporting and illustrating my post.Hope 9th grade English goes well for you.
I did clarify if that make you feel better, but I am confused. Why would I have replaced Hip hop with KKK.
In my opinion KKK is to lynching as Crude Rap artists is to saying B*tch, ho and the "n" word. It doesn't match on the same level, but that wasn't what I was getting at.
For those white conservatives who like to bring up the "hip-hop uses the word 'ho's'" point, let me make one thing clear.
The word "ho" in rap is so overused it really has lost meaning and you tune it out. Kind of like how the movie "The Departed" has about 215 f-words in it. You hardly hear it and the word loses its impact during the 2 1/2 hours, but when you only take just the f-words, well, it has a different context to it. Take a look:
[link to www.youtube.com]
In music, the word "ho's" is never directed at the female listener or females in general.
What Imus did here was call these women, directly, "ho's" as well as a racially charged term "nappy headed," which roughly means, in racist terms, blacks with less desireable physical features. Sexist, and racist. And this comment was directed at them. Barnes seems to forget that if you don't speak out against something offensive, they'll keep doing it.
Yeah, YMan, your point about words losing their meanng in certain context is what's been coming into my head the last few days. Some of this is so subjective, so tough to put your finger on. I used to listen to Howard Stern quite a bit before he went to satellite. He took a lot of heat for his racial stuff, but it never bothered me (OK, a little cringe here and there)- I just didn't hear the hate in his act.
I don't think this Imus deal should be the top news story that it's become, but I do get a different feeling from him than from others who may say similar words. I thnk part of it is just no basis at all for Imus' reference to "hos"
On the topic of the meaning of words being diluted, one that strikes me is "sucks". When I was a kid we used the insult "you suck", and it was often completed with an object on which that sucking was to be performed, in severe cases, specifically a donkey's.
The phrase was shortened to merely say that things or people sucked, but it was understood that the implication was that a certain act was performed.
"suck" has been watered down enough over the past few decades that I've heard young kids tell their mom or dad jokingly, in response to teasing or denying them something, "You suck!", with hardly a reaction from the parent.
"T" man, which is right next to "Y" man on the ol' keyboard.
First, you're wrong, but I can't quote lyrics on here without getting booted. Second, just because the "F-bomb" gets dropped in a particular movie quite often doesn't make it OK to say on the radio, on general TV, etc. Third, even IF "ho's" is NEVER (yeah, right) directed at particular women, it degrades ALL women.
Exactly how old are these people (and some of the posters on here)?
"Yes, mommy, I threw the rock, but Johnny threw one first!" never saved me from a good whoopin and, more to the point, it taught me that two wrongs don't make a right.
I see these people using this argument over and over.. "a Democrat did the same thing 30 years ago...).
These people need to be sent to bed without any supper and then somebody should call of their mom's and tell them they have a problem child.
"counterproductive emotions-which include such fellings as lust, hatred, enmity, jealousy, and belligerence-should not be expressed; they become more and more frequent. Expressing them tends to make them stronger and more prevalent. It is better to reflect on the disadvantages of engaging in such emotions and to try to displace them with feelings of satisfaction and love. We should forcefully overcome negative emotions when they appear, but it would be even better to find ways to prevent them in the first place." - Dalai Lama
It is easy to recognize the truth in that quote. Words have an emotional attachment that actually alter the physical and chemical composition of our brain. Men like Imus are certainly free to behave in any manner they please but their words have real consequences. Such words do have a damaging effect, that is why Barnes is off the mark.
Deflecting attention to pop culture for the hurtful words of a media luminary is similarly off the mark. Where are the personal responsibility people now? Why are the personal responsibility people grasping for tangential reasons to minimize malicious words? Why can it not be enough for the personal responsibility people to allow responsibility to be accepted?
The problem is not the outrage at Imus's comment, but the selective outrage. If Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton were consistently picketing the offices of gangsta-rap and hip-hop music producers, the story would be entirely different.
I'm sure we'll see brisk apologies from Mr. Jackson and Mr. Sharpton when the charges are dropped against the Duke LAX players.
What do Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton have to do with what I posted?
Again, why the deflection?
Because you're only dealing with one aspect of the issue. I absolutely agree with you that Imus did something stupid, wrong, and should absolutely pay the piper. Please don't align my previous comments with those that you think are trying to minimalize or justify his comments. I'm merely pointing out the hypocrisy and selectiveness in the fight against racism that I would argue is enhancing racial discord instead of lessening it.
Part of the Dalai Lama quote you posted: "We should forcefully overcome negative emotions when they appear, but it would be even better to find ways to prevent them in the first place."
By singling out Imus and not dealing with the other negative emotions permeating from other arenas of communication, we are not preventing anything.
Imus is a case study in a larger problem, we agree there. Broadening our scope to include all aspects of the issue is fine with me. It doesn't seem beneficial to include other arenas of communication when this case is cut and dried. Imus exposed his character, Barnes minimized the situation and all we will do is agree that other people saying hurtful things is wrong.
I have to admit I have not been following this story beyond a few stopovers here at MMFA. May I have examples, pertaining to this episode, of Jackson and Sharpton exacerbating racial tensions?
Roundhouse, my point was that tensions are exacerbated not by specific comments of certain minority leaders, but the lack of a broadly-based criticism of all racist and discriminatory words and actions.
But, since you asked:
Jackson in Ireland, May 10th, 2005:
"88% of Bush's votes came from Whites. But 100% of his votes came from Stupid people. There's a reason you Europeans think Republicans are stupid, - it's because in the main, they are"
Sweet! I love it!
I'm sorry, your point very much was about specific civil rights leaders. You brought up their names. Moreover, I asked if you would please give examples, pertaining to this episode, of Jackson and Sharpton exacerbating racial tensions. You gave an example and it was a good one, but it does not have anything to do with how this situation is being handled.
Anyway, it is true that negative words contribute to negative conclusions. Maybe you think that because I reject what Imus said that I unquestioningly accept harsh judgments others put on him?
No. And I'm not questioning the harsh judgements. My point, again, was that it needs to be harsh across the board, not JUST for Imus.
A lot of this back-and-forth about liberal hypocrites, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and political correctness should be discussed but aren't truly relevant to this topic. Sure, the headline wasn't that great but that's not the point.
Imus made another racist comment. See the article in Slate for a brief history. Kondracke's comment was ignorant and sort of racist. Hume first said that there was skimpy evidence about previous racist comments by Imus--that's a laugh. Then he sort of contradicted himself when the Ifill comment was brought up.
What we have here is more evidence of the media saying things without proper perspective either because they don't want to provide a complete picture or because they are intentionally trying to twist the discussion. That's the real takeaway and that's why we have MM.
I wonder what would've happened if Imus DIRECTLY quoted from a rap lyric while expounding on the Rutgers team?
Who cares? How hard are you really going to work at not addressing what the man did?
I suppose I'm representing everyone you disagree with here. I've acknowledged repeatedly in this thread that Imus messed up and deserves what's coming to him. I'm taking issue with those who think it's OK not discuss why Imus would think calling the team "ho's" would be funny or hip.
Because denigration and contempt arent funny?
Well, several successful comedy movie producers would disagree with you, but that's besides the point (even though "White Chicks" didn't do that well in theaters). The point is, he thought he was using pop-culture term. I wonder why.
In the context we are talking about I would say because he is an insensative jerk. Perhaps contempt and denigration can be PART of something funny. Like in Blazing Saddles. There was much contempt and denigration but it was that very context that was itself being satirized and THAT was the source of the humor. That is very different. However it is also an oversimplification. I know many people thought Andrew Dice Clay was funny in his day and a good part of his schtick was contempt and denigration. Personally I never found him funny. I dont think standing alone contempt and denigration are funny. I dont in any way see in what Imus said anything even in the general area of funny. Whatever the reason he was taking pop culture out of its context, it was insensative and crude. You havent been appolgizing for it and I am willing to move on. I think Imus is genuinely sorry and this whole thing has been played out so you and I arent really very far apart on this issue anyway.
Agreed Solon.
OK, can you explain why you feel that a man in his late sixties would be considered "hip" and not pathetic? For that matter, when was anyone or anything on AM radio ever "hip"?
My God, even when he was starting out he wasn't even close to hip. Whatever the hell hip means.
He'd still be called on it and so should the individual qouted for the context of how they were using the term. Whats your point?
My point is that it's essentially what happened, and I'm looking for the 2nd part of your comment to take place next.
Please direct me to who he is qouting and how that person was directly referencing the NCAA Womens National basketball champions. For that matter who the qoute was addressing directly.
The black communtiy on different forums (radio, television internet) have been going on for days about how even though the comment was wrong how Blacks need to speek out against this kind of speech in their own community. Listen to a few black morning talk shows, tune into some of the discussion from folks like Talvis Smiley. Why do you assume that the entire black community doesn't recognize that Imus isn't the only offender. I think Sharpton and Jackson are going a little far, but to be fair I've seen them steam roll piles of CDs for offensive language in the past. Still they don't respresent the entire community.
Very convenient that more black people have been publicly criticizing black comedians and musicians over the last few days. Now that Imus has been kicked off MSNBC, these same people who said that there is no difference between Imus'disrespect and that of a black artist will go back to status quo and wait for the next white male to screw up. Totally racist. What counts is whether a white man believes in racial superiority, and whether that person is promoting racial superiority through word or deed.
Anything anyone on Fox News has to say about the Imus situation is amusing given that there are more racists and bigots on FNCs' air per square foot than at a KKK rally. Not only do the regulars (Hannity, O'Reilly, Gibson) exhibit racism and intolerance on a nightly basis, but they give a voice to some of the worst offenders in the guests they trot out time after time (Coulter, Bozell, Elder) who come on to reinforce the hatred of anyone who doesn't agree with them or their politics
Dick Cavett once did an interview of John Cleese, around the time of the release of "Life of Brian", among protests, pickets and boycotts over such a sacrilegious film. One of the things I remember Cleese saying was that among people offended by his work were those who were personally offended, which he deeply regretted, and "institutional offense": "As a Christian I am deeply offended by your film", which he did not regret. I believed he was sincere on both counts. When people hold a press conference and read statements about how offended they are, it's pretty obvious which kind of offense is in play.
This story is about as relevant as the runaway bride. Thousands of far worse things are said about peple every day and not one has died, been injured, or denied employment, housing, the right to vote, or a fair trial, because of them. Probably the reverse. Hundreds of more important news stories that should be covered, but aren't, happen every day. Dozens of villians of the airwaves far worse than Imus go unpunished.
The MMFA tag for this story should read "Nappy-haired Hoes Dominate Front Page of NYT as Iraq Burns".
Reporters, pundits and MMFA: get busy and talk about something that matters.
Laplacian: talk about what you want to talk about. We will do the same. Thanks.
There is a archive on this site, maybe you should check it out.. There are also a few stories about Iraq mixed in with the handful of Imus stuff over the last few days. If we want to talk about this a bit, what's the harm in that. Trust me there is no lack of discussion regarding this idiotic war.
My point is that Last night I turned on the Lehrer Newshour and there was the Imus story; this morning it was on the front page of the NY Times. This story is being blown way, way out of proportion.
It has been Blown up definitely. I agree with you there, but what the harm in talking about it here a bit.
You really need to take a snapshot of MMFA's front page for this story. White male apologists lining the top of the page to say that this isn't a big deal, that people are overreacting, complaining about PC-ness, whatever. The youngest white male there is what.. 45? The rest average an age of maybe 58? It makes the "well, this is what 'they say' in hip-hop culture" even more disingenuous.
Sheeeeesh now Don Imus is the figure who represents the unified opinion of all white males in America who don't have a European accent.
Were all judging rap and hip-hop BUT lets not forget rock music, and rock music videos. Here is a question:
Do "HOs" or in rock music terminology "GROUPIEs" really exist?
The short answer is, YES. YES, there are HOs/Groupies. You see thats the problem with this whole "rap/hip-hop does it too" distraction. First of all, its hypocrisy by the white/conservative racist apologists. Hannity/Beck/Coulter/Limbauh anyone?
SECONDLY and most importantly, ITS NOT THE SAME. The lyrics are referring to a key benefit of the LIFESTYLE that is pervasive in the entertainment industry. These guys get alot of women who throwing themselves at them at backstage parties, bus tours, VIP rooms, clubs etc.. So what do you think these artist (both rock and rap) are gonna talk about in their lyrics?? And what are these women gonna be referred to as? Nuns?
Heck, even women are calling themselves b***hes nowadays as a term of endearment. Does that give me a free pass to call some random group of women I DON'T KNOW b***hes?? NO.
Heres a good one for you, remember O'Really? O'Reilly and Ludacris (and now snoop) and his PEPSI endorsement deal? Remember how O'Really rallyed to get him fired and lose his endorsement deal? The key here is that Ludacris didn't say anything blantantly racist and target it at a specific group of people - like say a WOMENS BASKETBALL TEAM. O'Really wanted to get him fired JUST because he was a rap artist.
Here's another.. anybody remember the "RED NECK" jokes from the "BLUE COLLAR"comedy tour? You see? term of endearment. If I, as a black man call a white person or group of people red-necks or hics AND -this is important- I was not friends with or did not know them "like that", then I'd be wrong. I would be attacking that person with a racist slur. Now what if I directed that attack against say an all white cheerleading squad in texas on a nationally synidcated radio show AND have it broadcast on TV?
Which is exactly what Imus did. He attacked a group of women that he knew nothing about or has ever met in person, and he called them "nappy-headed HOs". That is the real issue at hand here. All this talk about rap lyrics is irrelevant at best.
As to Imus' punishment, I think we should stick to precedent. Limbaugh made a racist slur about Donovan Mcnabb, he was fired from ESPN. Michael Weiner consistently made racists and derogatory comments about minorities and "liberals" on his short-lived CNN gig. A couple of months later, FIRED.
"Here's another.. anybody remember the "RED NECK" jokes from the "BLUE COLLAR"comedy tour? You see? term of endearment. If I, as a black man call a white person or group of people red-necks or hics AND -this is important- I was not friends with or did not know them "like that", then I'd be wrong."
America needs to get friendly with each other. It might be socially awkward now, but hopefully, thanks to guys like Carlos Mencia who are truly breakingdown boundaries between races (and get away with that all the time, much to my entertainment), we will all call each other affectionate names some day. Because As americans, hell as HUMANS, we are all in the family. Unless you're a true racist idiot like Imus isn't.
Earth to Barnes. THAT'S BECAUSE THEY ARE VICTIMS! They are not public figures. It's not like calling the New York Knicks basketball team a bunch of pimps. The Rutgers Basketball team are having their lives turned upside down by all the media attention over Imus's racist and sexist remark when they should be celebrating the great season they had.
...and studying for final exams.
I seem to recall they were being harrassed by the press, and could not study. Did Imus bother them? Only indirectly. The press directly stopped them from studying or basking in glory.
EXACTLY how do you KNOW that they haven't studied for their final exams!? What, do you live with them? So your saying that because they responded publicly to Imus remarks it somehow means they are "playing" the victim. What, you think they should keep they're mouth shut and just play basketball?
I am offended that many blacks are unable to tell an Imus from an O'Reilly. It's like white men are being lumped together or something. The fact that this guy is who is is DOES excuse his comments. He is clearly on your side. Do some research before you label any white man who dares to utter a foul word about a black person a racist. You who think Imus is racist just because of what he said, you are racist. You really are. Yet there is no accountability and it has to stop.
Many Blacks?
Or are you just talking about me... Hmm lets see...
First of all, you white/conservative racist apologists are the ones who brought up rap music and rap artist. You are the ones trying to defer the issue from Imus' clearly racist remark. Now your mad that I'm comparing YOUR kind/ilk with the likes of O'Really!! Cry me a f*cking river!
"The fact that this guy is who is is DOES excuse his comments."
Really!!?? WHO is he? and HOW does it make his comments excusable?
"He is clearly on your side."
Who mine? What the hell does Imus care about my "plight" as a black man? Or maybe you meant the black community in general?? Exactly how are you gonna back that one up? -Idiot...
"Do some research before you label any white man who dares to utter a foul word about a black person a racist."
LOL... Ohh Ive done plenty of research, Imus has a documented history of racist remarks about NOT ONLY blacks, but also Hispanics and jews. This incident was "the last straw"
"You who think Imus is racist just because of what he said, you are racist. You really are."
I judge people based on their actions and what they say, especially if they have a documented historyYou guys have to come check out comments on the Brock statement post.
Really. It's like a circus, except without everything but the clowns. I'm getting a serious contact high just reading the comments.
I love how people who stand up and take offense to slurs and such are labeled as "acting like victims". As if they just need to have a thicker hide. As if Don Imus did nothing wrong. As if the people slandering, insulting, and defaming others are just having a laugh.
Words hurt. Plain and simple.
Yeah, it's bad when rappers call each other "nigg*z" and "hos". It's wrong when ANYONE does it. Why can't people see that?
I don't care if he meant it in fun. It was an ugly thing to say. Period.
And people wonder why political correctness and sensitivity training came about. It was because of people like Imus. They think that they should be allowed to say whatever they want to people without regard to their dignity. They want the freedom to debase entire groups and use slurs against anyone they wish. They're bullies.
Wow man - I have a certain view about discrimination - My view is basically that discrimination is discrimination no matter who says it. In my life, I have been discriminated against a lot for being white, and I rarely ever hear people talk about that, or if they do talk about it, someone such as yourself will come around and say that person is either a racist themselves or doesn't understand the dynamics of the diversity we live in. I'm young (mid twenties), so I never saw what it was like back in the day, only what it was like being the white guy on the bus in the 80's and 90's. It tainted me a little - I saw a perspective that many other people apparently don't. I feel rather strongly about it, even if it confuses and confounds me at times too. But it has NOTHING to do with my political ideology. Scratch that, it does have something to do with it:
I believe in social justice as best I know it. I believe in a form of wealth distribution, unions, universal health care, more than two political parties, regulation, a major over-haul of our educational system and prisons... I believe in most of the environmental causes that I've come across, I happen to be a Nader admirer, and my foreign policy ideas are aimed at helping other countries instead of bombing them to ensure security for the whole world and not just the U.S. --- I could go on and on, but I hope you get my point. I'm rather progressive/liberal. I was raised that way too - I helped unionize the job I'm in right now by going to the capitol and lobbying on behalf of my coworkers, by protesting outside corporate offices. I march in peace parades etc... That's what I am... But when it comes to people talking about racism, I tend to get very very irritated. Because when I'm in school and we learn about "diversity" I constantly hear how bad white people are. I hear how I should be ashamed of my heritage, and most other races/ethnicities should be proud of theirs. Do I get too caught up in it sometimes? Yeah, probably. Do I truly feel that what some white people did was horrible, yes! But I'm tired of hearing how bad I am, and I don't think it accomplishes much at all. Maybe I'm dead wrong. Maybe I'm blinded by my own biases, maybe... But I'm telling you where I'm coming from, and I'm speaking truthfully. I'm tired of being made out to be the bad guy.
And when I'm told I can't play ball, or I can't dance, or I'm a honky or cracker, and nobody says anything but instead just laughs - Well I feel just about as alienated as I imagine a black guy must have felt when he was the only black guy on the bus.
I am NOT comparing my life or anyone that lives today to the lives of those who suffered back in the day. I'm just trying to explain my frustrations. And for a group of people who claim to be open, I got pretty irritated with how close-minded some of the responses were.
I predicted it to an extent, and that's why I said I'm as liberal as they come. Because in my pov, I am. I was merely trying to let people know that others that usually agree 90 percent of the time can have a different viewpoint on this topic. That's all -
oops - this comment wasn't supposed to go here -
JKing-It's all wrong. Anyone debasing anyone based on their sexuality, race, etc. is wrong. My point was that it was the racists who started the fire. We really shouldn't need political correctness. We shouldn't have to make people watch videos in order to learn how to treat others who are different than they are. We shouldn't need Affirmative Action. But unfortunately we do.
"Because when I'm in school and we learn about "diversity" I constantly hear how bad white people are. I hear how I should be ashamed of my heritage, and most other races/ethnicities should be proud of theirs."
I'm not sitting in on your classes, so I don't know exactly what you're being taught in regards to race or ethnicity. It could just be your perception. I don't think anyone should be told that they should be ashamed of their background or proud of theirs at the expense of others.
"And when I'm told I can't play ball, or I can't dance, or I'm a honky or cracker, and nobody says anything but instead just laughs -"
I don't laugh at that kind of thing either. The people telling you that just fuel racism. But on the other hand, you have to keep in mind that blacks have been told far worse things about themselves for far longer. I get angry when anyone race baits because they just help perpetuate racism whether they know it or not.
Iwarrior - I feel a little bad - my comment was a response to a comment way back in the comments - I accidentally hit reply, instead of replying to the particular post where I was defending calling myself liberal... It seems as if you thought I was replying to you, and honestly I haven't even read your comment =/
But I absolutely understand your point - And I do agree, and yes, it is just my perspective - Usually, though, there's a reason for that perspective - Thanks for the comment though =)
Fred Barnes is an idiot.....