Boortz, others blame VA Tech victims for not fighting back
In the April 18 edition of his daily program notes, called Nealz Nuze and posted on his website, nationally syndicated radio host Neal Boortz asked: "How far have we advanced in the wussification of America?" Boortz was responding to criticism of comments he made on the April 17 broadcast of his radio show regarding the mass shooting at Virginia Tech. During that broadcast, Boortz asked: "How the hell do 25 students allow themselves to be lined up against the wall in a classroom and picked off one by one? How does that happen, when they could have rushed the gunman, the shooter, and most of them would have survived?" In his April 18 program notes, Boortz added: "It seems that standing in terror waiting for your turn to be executed was the right thing to do, and any questions as to why 25 students didn't try to rush and overpower Cho Seung-Hui are just examples of right wing maniacal bias. Surrender -- comply -- adjust. The doctrine of the left. ... Even the suggestion that young adults should actually engage in an act of self defense brings howls of protest."
In the April 17 edition of his program notes, Boortz had similarly asked: "Why didn't some of these students fight back? How in the hell do you line students up against a wall (if that's the way it played out) and start picking them off one by one without the students turning on you? You have a choice. Try to rush the killer and get his gun, or stand there and wait to be shot. I would love to hear from some of you who have insight into situations such as this. Was there just not enough time to react? Were they paralyzed with fear? Were they waiting for someone else to take action? Sorry ... I just don't understand."
In questioning the actions of Virginia Tech students involved in the April 16 incident, Boortz joined the ranks of various commentators, including National Review Online contributor John Derbyshire, Chicago Sun-Times columnist Mark Steyn, who also writes for the National Review, and right-wing pundit and Fox News analyst Michelle Malkin.
In an April 17 weblog post on National Review Online's The Corner, Derbyshire asked: "Where was the spirit of self-defense here? Setting aside the ludicrous campus ban on licensed conceals, why didn't anyone rush the guy? It's not like this was Rambo, hosing the place down with automatic weapons. He had two handguns for goodness' sake -- one of them reportedly a .22." Time.com Washington editor Ana Marie Cox criticized Derbyshire in an April 17 post on Time magazine's political weblog, Swampland.
Steyn and Malkin have made similar statements, as the weblog Think Progress noted. In her April 18 syndicated column, Malkin wrote: "Instead of encouraging autonomy, our higher institutions of learning stoke passivity and conflict-avoidance. And as the erosion of intellectual self-defense goes, so goes the erosion of physical self-defense." In his April 18 National Review column, Steyn suggested that Virginia Tech students were guilty of an "awful corrosive passivity" that is "an existential threat to a functioning society."
Thirty-two people were killed in the Virginia Tech shooting, described by the Associated Press as "the worst mass shooting in U.S. history."
From the April 17 broadcast of Cox Radio Syndication's The Neal Boortz Show:
BOORTZ: There are several questions about the Virginia Tech situation yesterday. One of them is the blame game. The other one is gun control. The other one is -- and this is one that I've been reading up on a little bit this morning and have gained some insight, and I'm hoping -- I would love to get some psychological or somebody in the business that can answer this question: How the hell do 25 students allow themselves to be lined up against the wall in a classroom and picked off one by one? How does that happen, when they could have rushed the gunman, the shooter, and most of them would have survived?
He didn't blame them you idiots!!!
He was posing the question b/c in reality, if they fought back they would have survived. But, there is a natural human reaction to freeze. That's why he posed the question....
MMFA is pathetic.
the "reality" is that they were not lined up against the wall and shot "one by one". so his comments were based on a false premise.
Media reports suggest otherwise. In at least one classroom they were lined up and shot execution style.
I'd love to see any reports that say such a thing, especially considering this is probably still under investigation.
You're kidding right? Leather has never let facts stand in the way of his opinions. Why should he start now?
What? You don't care about evidence. You still won't provide any to counter my offer of evidence. MR. Scientist!
Students very well could have done more than 'wait their turn'. Which may have or may not have happened. I hardly think if you had a room full of worrierking's that no one would have attempted to stop him from shooting. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong on that analogy. But, it sure seems to me that kids are being taught to not fight back and to allow things to work themselves out. I'm sure that is a good philosophy for some, but it sure may have cost several more lives than should have been lost.
A roomful on me's?
Care to explain?
Isn't one of me more than enough?
Correction:
A roomful OF me's
A room full of brave fighting men. That's what I meant. I hope I didn't offend you.
No, I'm not offended, not at all. Thanks for the compliment but I would never describe myself that way.
i don't think any were "waiting for your turn to be executed".
Who says any of the victims were lined up and executed? I have yet to hear anything even remotely of that description from survivors, from the police - from anyone! Anyone who would figure to know, that is. Of course, a motormouth journalist with an agenda is likely to make up anything to compete with the supermarket tabloids for 'the scoop on what really happened.'
Another day, another troll defending asswaters and attacking Media Matters.
Same old, same old.
What a cowardly son-of-a-bitch! Such a perversly, sick & twisted demented, so-called mentality just doesn't even belong commenting here...imagine, not one iota of sorrow nor remorse at this senseless loss of life.
imagine, not one iota of sorrow nor remorse at this senseless loss of life.
NativeOfSF hit the nail on the head here. If you can't tell the difference between attempting to analyze the situation and blaming the victims, you aren't smart enough to deserve the internet. For someone who has a freakin' radio show, Boortz seems pretty slow to find "some psychological or somebody" to answer his questions.
Why pose the question? Why not just allow the parents and families grieve? The wound is raw right now and it is very insensitive to ask "what if" with regards to the victims. I think its fair to wonder what was going on in the head of the murderer and maybe the campus-wide notification, but to question at all the behavior of those unlucky enough to be staring down a gun is disgusting.
Think about it, what if a close family member of yours had the misfortune of being there that day. Would you want to hear about how "passive" he or she was? Would you want to hear why didn't he fight back or would you want the opportunity to try to find some peace?
I don't know. I don't like Boortz, but I tend to think his intention was not to blame but to really pose a question with regard to human behaviour. One that we've all asked ourselves since Monday--and whenever something like this happens: What would we do? Everyone likes to believe they would be heroic or brave or whatever, but it seems, all too often (and since few of us have faced such a situation, none of us can truly put ourselves in the victims place) when it comes down to it, a person's fear will overwhelm their ability to fight back. Which, undeniably, if psychology were not an issue, many of the victims could have done. Is it insensitive to ask these questions aloud? Maybe. But anyone here who denies they haven't wondered 'why the hell these kids didn't fight back' isn't being all that honest with themselves. Not to blame them but because it truly is very difficult for any of us in the safety our homes and offices to comprehend how 50 people could be shot (32 of them fatally) by one guy with two handguns. The fact is, they could have fought back but tragically so many of them didn't. And I don't know whether I would have either. I simply hope that I would.
they could have fought back
I never wondered for a second why these kids didn't "fight back" against an obvious nutter with two guns. I don't have military training, but my assumption going in would be that rushing a deranged shooter with two pistols = quick, painful death, and the shooter living to kill more people. Rushing him would more likely have been suicide than heroism, however well intentioned.
Now, I would like to believe I would have the sack to do something like the heroic Israeli professor did, which is different than some Rambo-like attack on the shooter.
I think, respectfully, that a lot of people who find fault with the kids' actions are informed more by action movies than by the reality of a situation with unarmed hotages facing a suicidal mass murderer.
I don't deny anything that you're saying. I'm in fact saying that the question of 'why' has very little to do with this situation but moreso our attempt to understand the situation (which, in the final analysis, may very well be unrelated). I mean, I like to believe that I understand what went through the minds of these kids, but really I have no idea. The fact is, physically, they could have fought back. They could have disarmed him. Fewer people would have died. They didn't because they were scared. That's not an indictment. I think some people will use it as such. Maybe Boortz is doing it here. I didn't listen to the clip. I only read, so I could have missed out on obvious tonal variations. That being said, I think when we ask these questions, since so few of us have remotely similar experiences except those glorified in various entertainment outlets, we're definitely living under the assumption that we can even for a moment grasp the weight on the shoulders of those kids and teachers. Furthermore, we want to believe we would act differently. But none of us have any idea. And the reality of what we know about this situation, and the reality of not knowing what we would do in a similar situation is frustrating. And terrifying. Again, it's probably insensitive to speak about it so soon, but I don't believe recognizing the fact that you've thought about these questions necessarily implies you're placing blame on anybody other than the one person that is to blame.
That being said, after Columbine, the narrative that the two shooters in that incident were teased and therefore acted out in an horrific manner got a lot of play. And that's overtly blaming the victims.
The fact is, physically, they could have fought back. They could have disarmed him.
How is that a fact? How exactly? I literally have no idea what you are talking about here. I mean, one could make a supposition that an incredibly heroic kid could have sacrificed himself for the others, but it's not a fact that he would have succeeded. It's a hope, a supposition.
I am not imputing ill motives to you, and it could be that you have experiences I don't have that give you better judgments on these things than I. My assumption, informed from movies and books and nothing else, is that if you are unarmed and go up against a guy with two guns, you're going to lose.
The fact is unarmed people overpower people with guns more often than you would think. Look at Colin Ferguson. It's a somewhat similar situation. Obviously an LIRR train is in close quarters where as a lecture hall certainly is not, but he came onto the train, killed six people and injured nineteen before three unarmed men stopped him. There was also an instance I can think of (but can't find a quick link to) of a school shooting stopped by a sixteen year old kid in the cafeteria. It happens.
I don't claim to have any real insight on these matters. I think the question is whether we should be openly searching for insight at all if it means looking at all critically on the behavior of the people who were there. Or if it's even possible to look critically on their behavior while not suggesting they are to blame. I believe it's not only possible, but necessary. It's like when a man tries to kidnap a child, you don't blame the kid for not screaming or running, but you do say he should have, and you teach your own son to act differently.
Who knows how these kids should have acted?
I think the question is whether we should be openly searching for insight at all if it means looking at all critically on the behavior of the people who were there.
I don't know. I am not trying to make these victims into completely helpless children, but the question of courage in a life-threatening situation is so intensely personal that it's hard for me to imagine how you can draw any insight from this particular situation.
In any regard, I can more readily believe you are searching for insight than Boorts. he seems purely to be looking for a way to blame the schools. And I think that's just cheap partisanship.
Every Talk Radio shock jock has their pet issues, and a consistent pet issue for Boortz is that America is becoming a nation of weaklings, sissies and "wussies." This is not the first time he's brought up the "wussification of America."
The fact is that Boortz used this tragedy before the facts of the events have even been determined in order to push forth his pet issue, by painting these students as wussies and sissies before their parents have even had a chance to bury them. It's absolutely inexcuseable and without any level of taste or class.
"This is not the first time he's brought up the "wussification of America."
Maybe he is right. If he was not, more of his listeners would actually join our over-streched military to go to Iraq and fight what Bush says is "the fight of our life." I do not listen to Mr Boortz radio show. Does he encourage his listeners not to be "wusses" an join the military? just wondering.
"Does he encourage his listeners not to be "wusses" an join the military?"
Doubtful, since he dodged the draft during Vietnam. But then again, he has no problem with hyprocrisy!
While you may be right, you may also be allowing you're own bias towards Boortz fuel your understanding of what he's saying. While I am familiar with his wussy talk, I don't feel that's necessarily the case here. If it is the case, it goes far beyond the realm of insensitivity. But I think you should open yourself to the possibility that you sort of want him to mean what you think he means. Personally, I don't know what he means. I just know that I have thought about the question he poses. I don't have a radio show to talk about it, and I don't know that I would choose to talk about it in this manner only a couple days after the event. That being said, I think it's necessary that such a question be asked at some point.
I never wondered why these kids never fought back and your correct it is very insensitive to ask the question. Do you know how many rounds a 9MM Glock's magazine will holD? Do you know how little time it takes to empty a magazine, reload and empty the second one?
The human reaction would be to freeze and not be able to comprehend the situation until it's too late.
I do know both of those things. I also know that a gun being fired from a single hand is far less accurate than were it to be fired using both hands. I know that the accuracy is further limited if the shooter is using both guns at the same time. Admittedly, I don't know if that was happening here, and even if it did, I have know idea how I would have reacted. I'm not arguing this to be anybody's fault but the shooter. I'm simply saying, as insensitive as it is, there's a valid question to be found in why it was so easy for this one kid to do in a short timeframe cause so much carnage with two short-range, semi-automatic handguns, when (were fear not an issue) he could have easily been overpowered by two or three of his victims. And I'm not calling them cowards. I'm saying they were quite justifiably afraid. I have nothing but the greatest of sympathies for anyone affected by this. I feel a little dirty talking about, in fact. Because I don't want it to seem like I think it was their fault any more than I think it's a child's fault for not screaming when an adult other than their parents put them in a strange car. I think people are just trying to make sense of it. And trying to figure out what--if anything--could have prevented so much destruction. Unfortunately, there will never be an acceptable answer to that question in this case, but maybe it will inform future instances. But again, we don't really know. Nor can we.
Really
You know how much ammo a glock 9mm holds? In a few seconds I found this link [link to www.the-armory.com] holds 17 the other 15. Also, how would the students know the caliber and maker of the gun?
Um, I said I knew how many rounds it held. I also think that it's fairly incosequential at this point. I'm not saying they are to blame. I've got no idea how many rounds were fired. I assume, quite a few missed their mark. I assume many victims were hit more than once. I know they were more frightened than I ever hope to be. And I don't blame them. I'm just saying I understand where the need to ask 'why?'
I also understand the reaction to the question. I simply don't believe the MMfA headline that he is so obviously blaming the victims is necessarily accurate.
The only thing Boortz said that rankled me was that "the left" was somehow influential in this happening the way it did. That's utter BS. Laura Ingraham said that because Cho was an English major, this just proves that anti-western teachings in English departments is to blame. If some people in our extended herd didn't believe these idiots, it would be humorous. Dr. Savage blamed the univeristy culture yesterday for creating the Cho's of the world.
And, yes, earliest reports out of MSNBC minutes after the shooting was being reported was that students had been "lined up against the wall" and shot.
And, frankly, IF that's correct, I wondered the same thing: Why didn't they simply turn on the shooter and rip him to shreds?
These are college kids who have probably never even been in a fight, let alone be willing to disarm a screaming idiot with two pistols. The instinct is to hide, not confront. Those of us armchair warriors who think we would jump right at the guy on a moment's notice are living in denial.
He IS blaming the victims and it is YOU that are pathetic
"...in reality, if they fought back they would have survived."
As you sit there on your cushy can typing that statement as if it were a fact (even though you weren't there and don't have but a bare, sketchy minimum amount of facts), what makes you so knowledgeable and absolutely certain? Tell us of your many personal experiences with "fighting back" at a crazed gunman-and surviving. We'll wait while you document your real-life heroic exploits and bravery for us all.
>as you sit there on your cushy can typing that statement as if it were a fact >(even though you weren't there and don't have but a bare, sketchy minimum >amount of facts)
It seems that Boortz and the others demonstrate the same lack of empathy for Iraquis and our soldiers who suffer and lose their lives on a daily basis. It certainly explains why so many of Boortz ilk continue to support Bush's War agenda.
Those that lack empathy are borderline sociopaths. They disassociate themselves from victims by making them less than human. I'm afraid if that these guys didn't have a radio show they would be serial killers.
Look at the the self-loathing, anti-gay, closeted-gay, advocates. They can't bare to deal with what they are, so they lash out against those that are gay or homosexual.
Is this really a question that really needs to be asked? Of all the questions we are asking ourselves in the wake of this tragedy, is this one that really needs an answer? All these media pundits who spew this crap do so from the safety of their homes or news centers. The second somebody pointed a gun at them, they would probly cower and hide. Nobody knows what they would be doing in that situation. We all like to think what we would be heros, but the truth is, most of us would be to scared to do anything. People like Malkin and Boortz make me sick.
Before you start calling other people "idiots," let me ask you: isn't the answer to Boortz's obvious? You don't need a degree in psychology or sociology to make an educated guess about why this gunman wasn't taken down by a crowd of unarmed students. (I don't remember anyone asking this question in the wake of Columbine.)
Boortz is asking this question either because he's trying to use this tragedy to take a political and cultural cheap shot, or he's genuinely puzzled by something that's so simple that it requires no explanation for most people.
I wonder how confused Mr. Boortz would have been if he had been in that situation. He's faced with a overwhelmingly bad odds: if he starts to communicate with those around him to plan to "rush" the gunman together, he'll be shot. If he runs at the gunman but nobody else helps, he'll be shot. And even if, magically, everyone decides to rush the gunman at once, he could still be shot. He's terrified, he's got a gun pointed at him, and he's not thinking logically about the chances of the group's survival as a whole.
So LDoren, do you seriously believe that Boortz is too stupid to understand that people don't behave selflessly and logically in situations like this, or do you think that perhaps he's trying to take a sociocultural or political cheap shot with this tragedy? Let me put it to you another way: Why didn't Boortz ask why the passengers of the other three hijacked airplanes rush the terrorists?...
LDOREN, Boortz, and all other right-wing crack pots
Hey morons........
Next time you find yourself in a class room listening to a lecture with your full attention on your professor and a gunman suddenly walks in and begins shooting at you and those around you with no warning.....
Please, by all means, show the world how brave you are by being able to overcome your fears and "jump' the gunman...... If you aren't the one crying for mercy and or deliverance waiting for a superhero to come in and save your ass!
Or..... You just might piss off the gunman a bit more in the process so that after you are shot dead for your bravery (after you realize that Superman isn't coming to save you, presuming you are still alive) he'll go on and shot even more people!
You new breed of conservative are absolutely disgusting, confusing fantasy video game play with reality!
Do you not realize how insensitive that post was? Do you really believe it's more insensitive to simply pose a question of why we are the way we are? I mean, I don believe the original question posed by Boortz is, at best, insensitive, but wow, what you just did goes a bit beyond.
Breaker, your reaction to CaptFoster's post resembles "concern-trolling"
Somehow you view it as more insensitive to call BS on the various and sundry phony-tough types who will gleefully defend Boortz' ghoulish need to second-guess th4e actions of the victims of something he should hope he never has to go through himself in order to validate his own flaccid ego.
nice.
And i have had guns pointed at me a few times when i was young and wild, and most of those times, as reckless as i was, i only once had an outburst of willingness to test my luck against the other guy;'s trigger finger. So most of these cowardly, doughy piles of excrement in the pundit class should keep their damned Rambo fantasies to themselves
Capt. Foster- AMEN!
Just when you think moronic statements couldn't get any lower- Boortz and et al show jsut how devoid of decency they are.
Is ldoren an ignorant puling apologist for neandercon maggots like boortz, or is he just a mentally and emotionally stunted half-wit who can't think for himself? Now I'm not saying those things, just asking! You know as well as I do what boortz was asserting in the typical mealymouthed weasel fashion of the cons. All that was missing was a coy graphic that asks oh-so-innocently, "Va Tech students: victims of their own "wussiness"?" Pathetic indeed.
Is ldoren an ignorant puling apologist for neandercon maggots like boortz, or is he just a mentally and emotionally stunted half-wit who can't think for himself? Now I'm not saying those things, just asking!
I cannot say for sure yet either. But since I have followed a few of the threads he (or she) has vomited on in the past few days I would say the corraborative data is mounting. It looks like both assertions are supportable.
LDOREN- anyone who blames the victims for dying and getting shot is in one word- Despicable.
There is no excuse for such speculation. I can't imagine the horrors of parents and all others who lost their children and loved ones to a monster who was just pure evil. Shame isn't even enough for those who would suggest they could have survived.
This reminds me of armchair warriors who say stupid things about any soldier unlucky enough to be shot in the butt. To them, such a wound could only be inflicted on someone running away. Idiots. Combat is a sh*tstorm and no one who has ever been there would ever stoop to saying anything so stupid.
Likewise, if you've ever had a loaded gun pointed at your head, you know these rough and ready social pundits are completely full of it. I'd like to see how rational and brave they'd be when a moment like that descended on them without warning.
Keep in mind that these are the same jerks who, in response to being asked about the young men and women taken from their families and dumped in Iraq for ever extending tours of duty, say "Hey, they volunteered."
Imus?
Heaven forbid we awful lefties deny Boortz and the other rightwing nutbags a fair chance to verbally p*ss on the corpses of a bunch of dead kids.
It's called blaming the victim?
Better yet, it's called class, or lack thereof. Let the bodies chill along with the invective.
How does that happen, when they could have rushed the gunman, the shooter, and most of them would have survived?
Perhaps we newsies will be lucky enough to find out what kind of lead Boortz has in his pencil when someone shoots at him. (crosses fingers);D
LDoren .. as usual, you're wrong.
He most certainly IS blaming the victims.
Typical right-wing crapola, and typical mindless trolling from you.
Neal Boortz is a fake Libertarian who any real Libertairan would totally disassociate themself from.
What an fecal matter head. I've had a .45 caliber pistol pointed at my face. Only someone who has never even been close to that situation would spew such nonsense. There are no words to describe this lunatic's drivel.
Malkin wrote: "Instead of encouraging autonomy, our higher institutions of learning stoke passivity and conflict-avoidance. And as the erosion of intellectual self-defense goes, so goes the erosion of physical self-defense." What in the effing h is this idiot prattling on about. Are the students supposed to be out on the tactical situation training area with glocks and colt 45's? Tell me Michelle, what do pack and how good at the FBI hostage rescue drill are you? Shut the eff up will you?
No, but the campus banned guns and colleges do tend to preach pacifism.
That being said, I think Boortz is way off base. These people were probably in shock and had no time to organize a counter attack. One incredibly brave professor was murdered barricading a door as the cowardly killer pumped him full of bullets while students jumped out 4th story windows to save their lives. Other students barricaded doors, one played dead and lived. I have heard at least 50 people say why didn't they fight back. My guess is shock. Boortz deserves some heat on this one.
That dude was 76, a Holocaust survivor, and about as good a definition of a true hero as I need.
I can't imagine blaming anyone who was there for not being a hero. Christ, these were kids. I'd like to think I'd give a good accounting on myself, but until I'm in that kind of situation, I won't know if I'd be doing what Professor Librescu did in the last moments of my life, or crying and p!ssing myself
I need to say this here.
In a small liberal arts college in california back in the eighties friends...and myself...drank titantic amounts of booze...danced wild...injested more illegal substances into our bodies than your average lab rat...tore around town in some über fueled, hormone powered blur.
All the while there was a 12 gauge punp shotgun under my bed. right there in the dormitory. It would come out in the Fall and I would go out and shoot ducks. Everyone knew this.
We had all the normal angst, exuberance, excitement and depression that comes with living in some dormitory. But not once did anyone reach under that bed, pull out the shot gun and play with it...wave it around...make a joke about it...and i don't know why.
I think something very large has shifted. I don't know what it is. But it seems to me that it happened when I wasn't looking. Now I don't understand.
I think it's not the access to guns. I think it's not the campus police. I think it's people. No one seems to be examaning what I think is the root cause. What is the difference between this brooding, self important, over tragic drama guy....and the brooding, self important, over tragic drama guy that lived down the hall from me? He wrote dark poetry and wore black and all that...but he never picked up a weapon and went gunning for everyone.
I don't know. I feel this kid felt he had reached the end of the line. And felt that he had got there by no doing of his own. But no one seems to want to talk about the how and the why of this.
Maybe it's easier to think about issuing everyone a side arm. Or banning guns all together. In my head, neither of those answers are usefull.
If you have no other resources...You start setting things on fire. You can buy a lighter anywhere.
Leatherhelmet, colleges do not preach doing nothing if a gunman is shooting at you. Pacifism is about war and using non-violence, which is different than self defense. Michelle Malkin was trying to imply that teaching pacism and non-violence to achieve political goals is why these students didn't fight back.
Good lord! This isn't James Bond crap where people are trained to take down a gunman! These rants by these right-wing hacks are not only demeaning to the victims but demeaning to those who survived. You think the survivors aren't thinking the same thing about themselves? You think the survivors aren't saying to themselves, "Well if I was only brave enough to try to take him down" or "If I was only good enough to stop it." These hacks have no heart and no respect to victims of any sort. Yeah, I guess the 9/11 victims should have been able scale down the walls of the buildings onto the street for safety. I mean couldn't they have done something?
more gems from the murky low end of the am dial
He's part super hero, part testoterone junkie. He's the man of steel, he's Charlie f'n Bronson. He's Neal sweaty shorts Boortz.
Really, Boortz has no right to question courage of anyone in that horrible situation. Neal is just another bully using the power of the airwaves to denigrate private citizens.
How about that for a guerilla reality TV show...maybe Ashton Kutcher could host...RightWingNutsacks Gotcha!
Each week a conservative commentator would be selected to be kidnapped, psuedo tortured and faced with possible murder...as a gag ya know, for laughs, just to see what Jackie Chan Rambo Clint Eastwood style defense they'd put up against the attacker(s)
Usually reserved for Savage: What a fick suck!!
To make comments like that before the victims are even buried is appalling.
Meanwhile, presidential candidate Tom Tancredo has weighed in with a report reminding everyone that the VT tragedy isn't the worst school killing ever, just the second-worst.
http://www.coloradopols.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=3113Tancredo guy, could you get me a link to the full text of his statement? I am a Coloradoan who is constantly apalled by him and would like to see his full statement. Thanks!
I'm just waiting for one of these sicko talk radio personalities to wind up on Dateline: To Catch a Predator
Picture Hannity...tears in eyes, rubbers in pocket, six pack in hand, wailing how the Left made him want to fornicate with underage kids
I give it three more hours before Democrats are blamed for VT
Why is it that people like Boortz and his defenders here, who've never been in a situation where their response means life or death, are so quick to interject their political prejudice against crime victims?
Boortz, LDoren, Me or anyone else has no idea what they would have done in this situation. For anyone to say they'd do something different just shows the lengths that some are willing to go to push their agenda.
These are cowardly words from this cretin and his defenders.
And this has nothing to do with politics or gun control. It has to do with compassion and empathy for those whose lives have been shattered.
At least picking on dead kids gives them something to do other than make this tragedy a commentary on immigration and gun laws...oh wait, they're doing that over at Jay Severins show.
Talk radio, classy stuff
for crists ske can these bezoars be any more intellectual stifled,
its a basic human function, known as fight or flight. it is innate and wholly unconscious. our very existence depends on it and as we have evolved, at least on the left, and deveolped a much higher order of neo-cortex we are much adapted to avoid violence and seek intellectual solutions. this is again why the right is wrong and bush and his minions always seek force or aggresssion as there means to an end. i am a karete master, certainly can take care of myself, however as we are constantly taught no one can outrun a bullet.
i do think if these poor students were these right wing knuckleheads , they very well may have survived as the smell of their urine and feces would surely have been enough to overwhelm this schzoid narcisstist.
may we all pray for those killed as well as their families
I JUST CAN"T TAKE THIS ANYMORE! Who have we become? Why do we allow these horrible people to take control of this sad day. Parents are grieving for the children they will never have ever again and we sit here arguing in self righteous way that one side is better then the other. These kids died in the worst imaginable fear any one could imagine and our media leaders feel they have the right to second guess how they should have reacted? How dare anyone try and make some sort of point or opinion over this. Shame on those who use some sort of "celebrity " status to sit in judgement. Shame on those that feel the need to argue these idiotic points of view - Mourn and comfort those that are hurting the most.
And how often has Mr. Boortz had a gun shoved in his face? He is hardly anyone to judge what these students and professors should or should not have done.
Derbyshire says the killer wasn't Rambo, but he sure thinks the students should've acted like Rambo. He's probably stunned so many American troops are dying in Iraq when they could just use their spidey sense, flying ability to avoid harm. Or they could just cast spells like Harry Potter. He, Boortz, and Malkin should all take their hard-boiled, two-fisted selves to Iraq where according to them there are maniacs there just lusting to massacre Americans. They wouldn't be horny for self-defense any longer that's for sure.
wussification?
Real nice Neal.
Doesn't surprise me though...Boortz, is the cold heartless type that has no empathy for anyone.
Talked with my wife, who is a fifth degree black belt in Tae Kwon Do, and she said the only time you should attack some one with a gun is if the individual with a gun is in reach. Otherwise get away as quickly as possible.
Without soul or conscience, it is EASY for these rightwing bloviators to look at the news of the day, however tragic or violent, and decide how to turn it into an attack on their political opposition.Their whole job, after all (Boortz, Limbaugh, and the like) is NOT to be empathetic or compassionate, or even HUMAN. Their job is to SPIN all the news of the day into a partisan attack on Democrats, and to portray Democrats as to blame for all ill in the world.This is what they DO. How could it be wrong? They are just earning their paychecks.
So, these 30 + deaths are the fault of the Democrats, and their "wussification" of America, while the 3000 + deaths in Iraq are the fault of ... no, no, to the GLORY of the balls and courage of GW Bush. The difference? Bush sent those kids into a senseless and unwinnable WAR, and the Democrats sent their kids TO SCHOOL. Wusses. Deserved what they got.
Well said Tex.
So presumably Boortz's muscular reply to the Iraq citizenry who are experiencing a Va Tech equivalent about twice per day would be "rise up you woosie's". That ought to be good for our troops.
Does the word shame even exist in the neocon lexicon anymore?
Make that "wussie's"
Damn, Tex. That was well put. I noticed on the day of the shootings while listening to wiener savage ( I do that to stay sane) that he was already turning this tragedy into a diatribe on how it is the liberals fault that this happened. Good insight man.
Perhaps Neal Boortz should look down the barrel of a firearm himself before he speaks out about how one should react in this situation. Then, after he's shot in the stomach and bleeding without end, he can lecture the rest of the country, and especially the students in the room, those, I might add, who gave their lives for no other reason than one of their classmates made a choice to shoot them, about how to react when another human being decides he's fed up with life and wants to bring others down with him. This situation, their reaction, whatever happened in that room, is not a partisan issue, it's not a political issue. It's a travesty, a tragedy, nothing more. Turning it into anything else is just plain wrong.
Wow, Boortz plumbing the depths again. No surprise there. This is in line with blaming people for not getting out of the way of Hurricane Katrina. Yeah, that was going to happen.
Why is it that all these people loudly proclaiming the "wussification" of America are themselves employed in the wussiest of fields- the political pundit? Personally, I would've done exactly what the kid at VT did- run like hell. And Boortz knows that deep down inside he would have too.
So, Malkin is a hero waiting for a chance?
She should enlist. Then she can plumb the difference between bravery and bravado.
What courage has Neal Boortz ever shown? He sees military action as an early solution to dwindling relationships with other countries yet has never himself enlisted.
He now calls the VT students "wussies" in so many words. These right wing bad@sses. Man.....it gets so old.
I noticed the use of the word "wussie" being used lately. It appears to be connected to the withdraw timetable being disscussed. Other such words that have been used is cut and run.
Back on topic here. Boortz is puzzled about why 25 students didn't jump the gunman.
Imagine if you are in the same situation. If you thought about jumping the gunman how would you know if the other students are thinking the same thing? How can you be sure that if you jumped first that you won't end up being the only one to do so and possibly getting shot for trying?
Boortz fails to appreciate the split second of the situation and we are talking split second. Boortz fails to understand that no one is faster than a speeding bullet.
Derbyshire asked: "Where was the spirit of self-defense here? Setting aside the ludicrous campus ban on licensed conceals, why didn't anyone rush the guy? It's not like this was Rambo, hosing the place down with automatic weapons. He had two handguns for goodness' sake -- one of them reportedly a .22."
BOORTZ: "How the hell do 25 students allow themselves to be lined up against the wall in a classroom and picked off one by one?"
Of all the stupid nonsensical statements to be spoken in all of human history; this has got to be right at the top of the list. Did these people even listen to the sound of the gun fire that was coming from that building? Lord save us from idiots like Derbyshire, Neal Boortz, and Michelle Malkin. They have no heart, they have no souls, and they have in my mind forfeited any right to access any forum that allows there “message” to darken the public airwaves......
It is so sad that people such as Boortz and other Republicans are talking about the victims this way. Was he in the military and defended his country when he had the chance? And if not, why not, if he is talking about how other people should be defending themselves. The same for Malkin - who is she to talk?? When she went over to Iraq for her little visit, did anyone see her going out of the green zone on her own without her military company? No! If she wants the victims here to be so brave and face down danger, why was she afraid to face Iraq alone on her own? These people talk real tough behind their safe little radio booth spewing out over the airwaves, or in their cushy little TV set, or their livingroom with their keyboard, where half of them can't even face criticism from their guests. They talk real tough when there is no one there facing them directly. When they don't like what they "hear" they shut off the mike. Now that takes real courage to shut off a microphone so you can belittle them further while they have no chance to rebut!. And if they are referring to the brave members on that flight on 9/11, those people who did what they had to do knew they were all going to die anyway. They knew they had no chances of living beyond what they did or didn't do and had no hope of landing safely to live another day. For all these people complaining about the victims, why aren't they enlisting and fighting in Iraq? Most of them are in the age category that the military now says it will take people.. they even just took a 60 year old grandfather who had finished his service years ago to go over to Iraq for a year. Time for some of these people to shut up and pay some respect to the victims, and not victimize them any further!
To anwser Boorz, maybe the students were Christians, who believed thou shalt not kill and that when one is struck, one offers another cheek. Boortz, who fantasizes about being Walker, Texas Ranger, who is another fantasy, might not be familiar with the Bible and the Prince of Peace.
Canadian1106, I agree that the time for talking tough is long past. I see guys in pickups with "Terroist Hunting Permits" on their truck bumpers. They're all bombast and spittle, for there truly is a "Terrorist Hunting Permit." It's called "enlistment papers." And the best way to support the troops is to enlist so that they can come home. People who assert that they support the troops, but don't enlist, remind of someone who asserts that they support the guy working in the backyard, who is exhausted.
"I support you, exhausted backyard guy," such people assert from their easy chair. "I even put an "I support the backyard guy" bumper sticker on my butt. But, of course, I won't relieve you and I won't let you come in from your labor and rest. But, damn, man, I support you, even if I draw the shades so that I don't have to see you suffer. After all, 'American Idol' is on and I just have to see what Simon will say."
Boortz, you said you'd love to hear from somebody who has insight into situations like this. So here's some insight into your situation: get help for yourself from "some psychological or somebody in the business".
What is it with wingnuts and always expecting other people to risk-and-die in order to provide them with a delusion of 'safety'?
Yeah because they totally had the guns and ammunition to fight back. + school shootings are a regular occurance in Va Tech so they were well prepared to fight back. What a dumbass. If he was shot at he'd probably be just as defenseless.
What a degenerate, low life, coward. As if Mr. Boortz would have played superhero in the same situation. We all know that he would have ducked for cover on the floor just like any other sane person. This vitriole comes from a man who supports war but would never subject himself to combat. We all know you dodged the draft Boortz. That kind of eliminates you from sounding off about your courage or anyone elses lack thereof, as you see it.
I have been hearing this drivel being pushed on most conservative talk radio shows lately, and it sickens me. Blaming the victims. It's crazy that this stuff still happens, especially in a situation such as this. I do believe, like other people have said as well in this thread, nobody knows how they are going to react to something like this until they are faced down with it. Nobody knows. You can posture, and pose all that you want about what you "might" do, but until there is a crazed maniac facing you with 2 loaded weapons pointed in your face, you have no idea what you would do in that situation. I have no idea what I would do in that situation. For Boortz and his ilk to be speaking ill of the victims in this way just makes them look like even worse human beings than they really are.
I suggest that Boortz, Malkin, et all, who are so gung-ho about facing down a gunman enlist in the US military, and request duty in Iraq, specifically Baghdad. Then they can face down gunmen, bombers, and other dastardly people in their daily pursuits, and THEN they can tell us about what they did in said situations. But since, they are not going to do this, it's all just conjecture on my part for the bloviating blowhards blaming the kids who were killed.
Boortz, Malkin, et al, apparently feel that living your life as if Cho Seung Hui is going to kill you, all day, EVERY DAY, is an acceptable mindset for the average American. Indeed, you are a "wuss" if you don't.
I refuse to live my life like that, I never will, and I bitterly resent suggestions that somehow that is responsible for a maniacal killers actions.
ALL the monday morning quarterbacking going on in this is disgusting. Deny, get angry, bargain (which is where most of us are now), buy your giant tub of neopolitan ice cream or go get pissed so you can sleep at night and then accept it. All this BS from the left and right is twisted. Let's grieve, then lets learn our lessons and move on. I know that's not popular because depending on who you listen to, we're all America haters so we have to bash the heads of the other side.
That being said this site is out of control. Why is this here? Does what this heartless jackboot said fit the mission statement of MMFA? I don't think so. The media did report on the line up stuff, so was that misinformation? maybe, but how does anyone esp. MMFA have enough of a grasp on this right now to KNOW what is misinformation and what's not? And how does the alleged misinformation or anything this moron says move conservative agenda forward? If anything, what he said moves it backwards because his reasoning is out of line. So is it posted to laugh at his lunacy. It's not funny. Is it posted because what he said was heartless? That's not what this site if for...or at least that's not what the mission statement reads...ThoughtCrime isn't one...yet. Keep reading 1984, but keep it hidden keep it safe...lest someone haul you out of your kitchen one morning while pondering the worlds obscurities over nice bowl of post toasties...
Boortz blames dead kids for not protecting themselves, despite the FACT that he doesn't know - because few, if any, people know - what went on in those classrooms, and you are blaming Media Matters for bringing his filth in the open?
If you're going to get pissy, get pissy at Boortz, not at the messenger. If you agree with Boortz, grow a pair and argue in favor of him. Whining about MMFA's mission statement is pathetic.
Is it really pathetic? There is a million sites on the net that are nothing more than pundit laires. This site purports to be something more. All I ask is that it upholds it's stated values. Is that really pathetic?
This site only claims to be what it is. A conservative media watch site. They site misinformation, disinformation, bias and include outrageous statements by cons in that mix. It is up to THEM what they feel fits that criteria. Your thoughtcrime nonsense would have relevance IF they were advocating locking morons like Booortz UP or arresting him for being a jerk. I didnt see them do that. Did YOU see them do that? No thoughtcrimes and other crimes of free expression are NOT illegal. For THAT reason we all including MMFA have every bit as much right to criticise Booooore for being a jerk as he has to BE a jerk. This is actually quite simple. This is what the site does. It is what it has done since the first day I found it about two years ago. I really dont understand why people keep complaining about MMFA exposing the boorish and outrageous statements these guys make and never seem to have enough outrage left over FOR the outrageous statements themselves.
Solon - I fear things have now truly degenerated to a "shoot the messenger" mentality...
If someone did shoot this particular messenger and he survived, at least then he's have some context from which to run that ignorant festering sewer he calls a mouth
the messenger in question being Boortz, of course.
Ah...then they lie about their aims here. The About US says it all.
Nowhere on this site does it tell people what to think. They post misinformation to show what is being said in the public domain, and to hold the people accountable (or try to anyway) for what they do spew forth. I'm not so sure that MMFA has the 'pull' to become "thought police" as you so eloquently stated. What they are trying to do is make some folks accountable for the awful things that they say, along with the lies and misinformation that they provide to a lot of people on a daily basis.
If Boortz, Derbyshire or any of these cowards were in that situation, they'd be wimpering in the corner wetting themselves. People like them grow up knowing nothing about REAL conflict and have never faced a life and death situation.
if boortz and those cowards of his ilk have us talking about this, the repubs don't have to talk about 183 dead in iraq yesterday, 18april07. these despicable creatures use this as a diversion. our kids and iraqis are being slaughtered in iraq and we are talking about meeley mouthed conserve yakkers instead of focsing on the worst foriegn policy blunder in our nation's long history. i'm not blaming us. we don't have control of the airwaves. but i do believe the 5 corporations that own the media are pushing this instead of the quagmire we're in. i am angry about this. our military deserves better than to be in the middle of a civil war.
Hey, it's the media's fault that we're losing in Iraq anyway, or didn't you get that note from Karl R. and the White House. They never show anything "good" over there and all (pure sarcasm here, please don't take it otherwise).
The only way Boortz (or anyone else for that matter) would really know what to do do for sure in this instance would involve having to actually be there at the time of the shooting. Otherwise, all he or the rest of us can do is speculate and ask questions.
To GrumpyMarine:
You said Media Matters is out of control. So if you want it controlled, isn't that the very "thought police"-ing you are against? Media Matters is a place to speak out for people who would get shut out trying to talk sense into right-wing extremists such as these lunatic talk show hosts who are "out of control" on the public airwaves all day long, every day. Here, we all have the right to vent, even yourself, GrumpyMarine.
Do not deconstruct what I say. My point is that I see MMFA straying from their mission statement. My question is: is this just a place to piss and moan or is there something legitimate going on?
The mission statement is to point out conservative missinformation that forwards the conservative agenda. I think that's great. Missinformation is bad no matter where its origins; I think most reasonable people would say that as well. But to monitor and point out mean comments...ie "Rosie is fat"...well that's not missinformation, its not conservative nor liberal, it's just...well, it's just mean. To suggest that someone should be accountable for "mean" comments is silly. Its a signature of our bored culture. As if we don't have enough problems in this country, we're going to monitor what our adult entertainment pundits are saying or doing. I can monitor it for myself thank you.
Pointing out when men with a strong history of conservative misinformation make public statements demonizing dead students is productive, in my view. It gives a person a context when they continue their misinformation and their baseless attacks.
Grumpy, you are expressing an objection many have voiced, so I'm trying not to lay my frustration at having to reply to this point time and again (peace out, Tommy!) on you.
It is true that the mission statement of the 501(c)3 non-profit corporation that pays the bills for this website does include the phrase "conservative misinformation." However, I've never seen it written anywhere that the only things posted on this website will be, without exception, examples of conservative misinformation and nothing else.
One of the themes that has emerged as a subject of posts on this site is the coarsening of our political discourse. I agree that this is not conservative misinformation per se, and I don't feel it has been presented as such by the site editors. It has provoked a lot of dialogue - some of it good, some of it silly. I think it is well within keeping with the spirit under which this website is created, and serves a good purpose.
Got it...thanks! And that's fine; I just wish that it wasn't presented as something else entirely. Punditry is wonderful though.
I guess I will deconstruct anything I want. Did someone tell you that you were my boss and got to tell me what to do? This is a public message board, put your comments up here they are fair game. This site considers outrageous statements to be part of the media bias agenda. They always have. Those types of statements coarsen the public dialogue, they distract from real issues. You may disagree thats fine if you think this site isnt doing its job up to your standards feel free to start your OWN site and dont forget to drop us a like about it so we can drop by and tell YOU how to run it. Until then HOW MMFA decides to further its mission is pretty much up to THEM.
Boortz and his cronies are all about "well if I was there I would have done this!!" That's total B.S. since according to the kids he walked in an started shooting with out saying a word. So no one was lined up and executed. Just the usual shabby work from this so called reporters.
And I love the woman saying "...it's only a .22". Obviously she has a lot of experience with .22 long rifle shooting. These things do a tremendous amount of damage, it is the favorite ammo of choice for professional's in close up killing. And, ace reporter that she is, according to balistics only the 9 mm was fired.
It makes me sick to here these people talking about what should have been done.
From Boortz' website today: (FWIW)
"Some listeners brought up a very good point yesterday in that self defense is absolutely not allowed in today's government schools. Almost all of those Virginia Tech students went through a government school system where a person who uses physical force in self defense on school grounds is punished at the same level as the aggressor. In this we teach our children that there is something wrong with acting to defend yourself. This lesson can be carried into adulthood. It's a valid point, one that I wish I could have made in a more appropriate manner yesterday. I failed, and for that I apologize." (emphasis added)
What an even bigger load of crap that is. He's always constantly trying to blame "government schools" (ie liberals) for all the ills of our society, so that he can push the GOP talking point about school vouchers, and having a "choice" about where our kids go to schools, and how the "government schools" push some sort of liberal agenda onto students. And the so called government school that I went to, if someone picked a fight with you, and you defended yourself, you didn't get punished at all. The aggressor got the boot, but the defender got to stay. I'm sure that Neal has done a survey of all the public schools in the country to know what their policies are, and that he can speak to the facts of this situation. Oh wait, no he can't.
This is just another stab at blaming the victim, and no he's trying to lump public schools into it as well. What a joke this guy is.
Didn't you know? All those Private Christian Academies offer classes on how to subdue a deranged gunman, in between Bible Study class and Creation Science class.
Thats how it was in the schools I went to. In fact I personally saw one of my friends DECK the assistant dean in high school. He had been standing in the lunch line and for some reason the ass. dean just grabbed him from behind, without waiting Phil just punched the guy. I saw him taken away. Later I saw the dean come back and talk to some of the other people who had been in line and then there came Phil about 10 minutes later. I talked to him and the dean said he had thought Phil cut into line and shouldnt have grabbed him from behind, that defending himself first without seeing who it was had been reasonable and Phil got in ON trouble. I went to school in California so I guess maybe in SOME schools it might have been that way but not the ones I went to.
Same here. And you know how it is when you're in school, and you see a fight starting up. There are no shortage of witnesses as to who actually started what and all. I also had a friend in school who, even though he was probably the biggest and toughest kid in school, for some reason some other kid decided to start some stuff with him. Don't know why, maybe he was just stupid. But my friend let it go, for a few weeks actually, and finally, the other kid punched him square in the face, and then my buddy messed him up, on a large scale. My friend, no suspension. The other kid, suspended, and charged with assault. So again, don't know what schools Boortz went to, but in the ones that I attended, the person on the defense in a fighting situation always got off a-OK. I also don't know what Boortz's experiences were growing up and all, but I know I've been on this Earth almost 34 years now, and haven't really been in a fight or an altercation in my entire life, and I hope to keep it that way. I have broken a few up, and pulled some friends away before, but never got in a knock down fight (unless you count the ones playing high school sports, but those don't count either).
Also from Boortz today:
"I hope that other people ... people well versed in the operations of the human mind and group dynamics ... will step forward and give some serious thought and study to what happened at Virginia Tech on Monday ... and I hope they do it with more class than I showed."
When I was a kid, I watched Mighty Mouse beat up all the cats, I saw Chuck Conners wield his fancy rifle and shoot guns out of the hands of bad guys; I watched Napoleon Solo and James Bond kick guns out of villains' hands and dispatch them with a well placed "karate chop". As a teenager, I read about Conan slaying dozens of enemies with his sword; I watched Dirty Harry take on machine guns with his trusty six-shot .44 Magnum. I, like most boys, imagined myself as these heroes, able to do heroic things and save damsels in distress. Then, like most boys, I outgrew these foolish notions and realized that they are just fantasy. Unfortunately, there are many among us who still think the fantasies are real. These are the people who still support the war in Iraq, and think the students in these classrooms should have rushed their attackers.
Disgusting Monday morning quarterbacking.
About ten years ago here at a local university there was an incident where a gun-toting student held a large class hostage. Eventually a student subdued him, but was shot and injured. He was hailed as a hero, until some lawyers got ahold of him and he sued the university for failing to protect him. Unfortunately, I think they settled out of court. I fear much worse hell to pay to the trial lawyers in the present case. Clearly there is much more potential liability here, with the guy's known psychological profile and the errors in judgement made after the first shootings. As if it's going to bring back any of the dead.
Good point. Unfortunately for everyone at VT the VA legislature passed a law fairly recently that keeps colleges and universities from expelling a student based on mental instability and from expelling or suspending a student based on the expression of suicidal thoughts or attempted suicide. The law was in reaction to a lawsuit filed by a student at another VA college that was expelled after expressing suicidal thoughts.
Because now all mentally ill people pose a threat?
Do you have a link to this law, or is this something that you're pulling out of the old arse here? I'd like to read the law itself, to indeed see what it stipulates.
I will find a link for you. I didn't pull out of an orifice (I dont' think).
I definitely don't think that all mentally ill people pose a threat but if you make it illegal to expell any mentally ill people from an institution then you aren't giving them those institutions the ability to expell the ones that are a threat to others. That's all I meant.
Here's a link to an article about the law. Trying to find a better link. You can only read an intro here unless you sign up for an account.
http://chronicle.com/weekly/v53/i27/27a04101.htm?top20
http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?071+ful+CHAP0705
After reading the law in more detail...I stand corrected. The law says that a university can't expel a student "soley" based on sucidal thoughts or tendancies (which, BTW, I agree with) but it also says:
"Nothing in this section shall preclude any public institution of higher education from establishing policies and procedures for appropriately dealing with students who are a danger to themselves, or to others, and whose behavior is disruptive to the academic community."
So if they believed that he was a danger to others, they legally could have expelled him? Now I'm not so sure...
Sounds like according to the law, that they could expel a student for possibly being a danger to others, or himself.
Yeah, I guess it depends on what is deemed as "appropriately dealing with students..."
If they had expelled him, of course, there is no guarantee that he wouldn't have just gone to the nearest mall and started killing there. It is so easy to play the "what if" game after a tragedy like this....
"expelling or suspending a student based on the expression of suicidal thoughts or attempted suicide. "
... your recommendation is that colleges identify depressed and suicidal individuals, and improve their lives by kicking them out of school, regardless of their academic standing? How does that help anything?
You do realize that suicidal people rarely take anyone with them, right? The vast majority of those who commit suicide do so without endangering anyone else's life. The vast majority of suicidal people never even make the attempt to end their life, even though it weighs heavily on their thoughts at all points of the day.
There is no danger in keeping a suicidal person in school. The danger is in keeping sociopathic people and other mentally ill types who are directly identified as being a danger to others (as Cho was) in school.
BLR, I was stating what the law that VA passed says not my recommendation. In my post I stated that the law (my understanding of it, that is) keeps universities from expelling a student based on mental instability and from expelling or suspending a student based on the expression of suicidal thoughts or attempted suicide. So, they couldn't expel this guy based on his mental instability. It seems like there was some effort to get this guy some help and it either slipped through the cracks or the system they had in place simply didn't work. I'm sure that we will find out more in the coming days and weeks. I don't think that if he was expeled then he never would have gone off the deep end like he did. It's just a shame that he didn't get some kind of treatment. I don't really have a "recommendation" for what should be done in cases like this. That is a question for people with a lot more training and education (in the mental health field) than I. I certainly don't think that anyone with suicidal thoughts or tendancies should just be thrown out of school. I can see how you may have gotten that from my post but that is not what I meant to say. I was really pointing out the mental instability aspect of the law. thanks...
Re, why its here. An effect of the present media is to coursen the puplic discussion. To introduce concepts with no appartent conscience engaged as normal talk.
The system was unable to deal with him despite honest attempts to do so. It has no infrastruture to deal with people who suffer so, and spread that sufferring. It is a small population, inclined to hurt the robots they find themselves among. We have nowhere to put them nohows on dealing with them.
Ugh, I'm so sickened by these wanna-be Captain Americas who like to fantasize about "rushing the gunman." I mean, how were they even supposed to know what was going on? I've been teaching for quite a few years and the last thing I'm going to expect at 9am is a guy going on a shooting spree. This was freakin' Virginia Tech, not Fallujah Community College.How the hell are normal civilians even supposed to be able to recognize gunfire? Is that a car backfiring? The heating system going out? Chinese new year? College kids trying to get on Youtube?Also, a gunman walks in fires and leaves: how many more are there? Is he coming back? Does he have a bazooka? Is it Red Dawn? Are there five more psychos in the hall? Ten? Are they planning a siege? Are they taking hostages? Which leads me to the moron (some radio guy, I forget his name) that argued that the students could have counted the shots, waited until he was reloading and then rushed him: Really? I'm pretty familiar with firearms, but I seriously doubt that given the surprise of the situation, I could have (while under fire) accurately identified the model of handgun and then kept an accurate count of how many times he was firing. To criticize these students is just the height of idiocy and delusional narcissism.Tools like Boortz start Monday-morning-quarterback these situations with the luxury of a) knowing what no one in the situation could have known and b) not having someone firing bullets at them. Given "a" and "b" I think anyone who wasn't there should shut the f*#k up and just offer their sympathies to the families of people that have been killed.And Neil Boortz should be put in a rocket and fired at the sun.
"Counting the shots" is another Hollywood fantasy. Even if you could successfully do that, how long does it take to change the magazine in a Glock? Even without practice, I'd say someone with normal dexterity can do it in about one second....two at the most. Could Mr. Boortz get up and leap across the room in that amount of time? I doubt it.
Boortz must not have received the Right Wing talking points or heard the messages of our leaders. Fear is the tool used to get America to send a select few into a war against an enemy we cannot see, that they might empty our pockets, in the name of God.
Not a good idea. Look up "Fullterton State Libarary Massacre 1976". Two people attacked and hit the gunman over the head with heavy objects. It didn't even slow him down. Both were shot point blank. Another man tackled him from behind. The gunman managed to get away and shot him point blank as well.
It's only a matter of time until one of the Trogs brings up Flight 93 and "Let's Roll". I would remind them that everyone on that flight died anyway, despite that heroic gesture.
It is suggested that their sacrifice saved untold lives in Washington, DC, as that is where it has been supposed that the plane was heading.
Likewise, if any one of the dead had been able to stop Cho, they may have lost their lives but saved others'.
Just a clarification - I do think it's reprehensible to blame the dead, but I do recognize the potential to save lives if one is lucky enough to have the bravado, the opportunity, and the ability to stem further violence. It's unfortunate that the stars were not right on Monday and that it all could not have been stopped sooner, but in the end, it happened and it's over, and it gives us all a chance to pause and think about what we would do, what we could do, and - more importantly - how we can prevent this in the future. Our social systems, despite conservative griping about its drain on our economy and their pocketbooks, is inadequate to deal with severe mental illness. This needs to be fixed, as the broken system is directly leading to situations like this.
I think a critical distinction was that the Flight 93 guys knew they were going to die to a certainty. They already knew the towers had gone down. These kids at least had reason to hope they would be able toescape the killer's bullet if they just kept cool.
Very well put.
Trying to figure out what went wrong with the system, to me, is not playing the "blame game" if the bottom line is that we don't ever want another mass murder like this to happen. You are absolutely right - the system doesn't work. This tragedy makes that painfully obvious. It seems like there were warning signs all over the place...
And this is just further advancement of how people in our society avoid responsibility. Some people are so eager to blame the victims, society, education, the mental health system, the police, the school administration.
People are blaming everyone except the freaking gunman who actually pulled the trigger!
Unless you've been trained to face deadly situations, you're not going to be practiced at switching immediately to fight mode. Even police officers are taught to prepare themselves mentally for a deadly clash each time they head in to work. If all you're doing is sitting in a classroom, maybe half awake, thinking about lunch or your girlfriend, and some maniac barges in and starts shooting, you won't be in a mental state that's ready to instantly deal with the situation. You're likely to be gripped by confusion and panic and an overwhelming desire for self-preservation. There won't be much time for you to gather together with your buddies and mount an unarmed counterattack, while your friends are simultaneously falling to gunfire around you. Hell, maybe you've even already taken a round or two yourself.
Dimwitted comments from such morons as Bortz only add to our pain. I can't even imagine what those poor families are enduring right now. Bortz's comments are frankly more offensive than what Imus said. He should shut the hell up and try filling his airtime with right wing blather on some other topic.
Been some information out today of bravery shown by potential victims. Some people did step up and reduced the threat and prevented further death.
A religeous figure has assured all that good Christians involved will be safely bound to heaven though the services of etc,etc. I think he forgot some people.
This is true. I saw Tucker Carlson interview a kid who held a classroom door shut with the help of a few other classmates, after the shooter had left. The shooter returned and tried to push his way back into the classroom, but they held the door closed, even when that maniac started firing through the door.
Neal Boortz is ten feet tall, weighs two-tons, breathes fire, and could eat a hammer and take a shotgun blast standing.
Once a grizzly bear threatened to eat Neal Boortz. Neal showed the bear his fist and the bear proceeded to eat himself, because it would be the less painful way to die.
A handicapped parking sign does not signify that this spot is for handicapped people. It is actually in fact a warning, that the spot belongs to Neal Boortz and that you will be handicapped if you park there.
Scientists have proven that Neal Boortz's tears can cure all forms of cancer - it's a shame that Neal Boortz never cries.
Neal Boortz can swim through dirt.
It is imagined that Osama bin Laden is hiding in caves in the Middle East to avoid US prosecution, but in reality he's hiding from Neal Boortz.
I think Boortz is wrong on this one. It's hard to know what you would do in that kind of a situation if you have never been in that situation yourself. Those kids were probably just in complete shock and didn't know what to do. If I had been in that situation, I probably just would've played dead when the killer started shooting. But then again, it's hard to tell what I would do in that situation. Those kids had never thought that anything like that could possibly happen, and were just in shock when it happened. With that being said, it probably would've been a good idea if they all could've come together and rush the gun man. But they simply didn't have time to talk it out and make a plan like that. Everything just happened too fast for such a plan to take place.
Forget the gun staring at you, I wonder how many of these "tough" guys running their mouth have actually been in a fight or two, or a barroom brawl, or had a bully breathing down your neck. Your inclination is to freeze, your breathing stops, confusion reigns. It takes discipline to keep your wits in those situations and to force your body to respond (if you intend to fight back). Your first impulse ALWAYS is to get to safety, to get clear of the immediate danger. Few possess the ability to keep their wits and act. I imagine Boortz is one of those loud mouths that would wet himself if he faced a dangerous situation. I've seen these "tough" guys before and it's surprising how many lack the cojones to practice what they preach.
The year is 2012. The objectives of the Project for the New American Century have been fully achieved. America is now a one party state. Marvin, Jeb and Neil Bush are the Triumverate for Democratic Rule. The Supreme Arbiter for Consitutional Rule (formerly SCOTUS) has validated the Constitutionality of rule by an unelected Corporate Triumverate. Fox News Corporation completely controls radio, television, telecommunications and the Internet. The only content permitted over The borders have been sealed. All members of the underclass have been taken at gunpoint and removed to Low Wage Third World Labor Camps. Bill O'Reilly is press secretary to the People's Committee for Democracy in Action (the one party that can legally run candidates in any election) and Rush Limbaugh is Minister of Education. All elections are managed by Diebold.
Boortz is now CEO of the Ministry of Information (formerly the Library of Congress). All White Englishspeaking Christians have been formed into a National Militia and charged with protecting the Homeland. All, of course, are armed to the teeth.
The non-white non-Christians (NWNCs) who have not been shipped to the Labor Camps have been conscripted into the New Peace Corporation--charged with spreading Peace and Democracy (at gunpoint of course) through the rest of the world. One morning there is an "incident" at the Ministry of Information. A student is spotted in the Reference section of the Library. Unfortunately he isin a section of the shelves that casts a shadow across his face. He is seen by another who promply reports the threat of an NWNC sighting to Library Security.
Bootz's has made it a matter of policy to shoot first and ask questions later in such cases and so a guard immediately draws his Glock and begins firing.
The student in the stacks hears the first shot and by virtue of his compulsory urban combat training has rolled onto the floor and isreturning fire before the sound of the first richochet has died. By now everyone in the library has rolled onto the floor and is firing at the place from which they heard the sound of gunfire. Unfortunately it is a big room with a lot of echo and no one really knows where to fire so bullets are flying everywhere.
Boortz grabs one of his trusty 82A1/M107s from the rack in his office and sets up on a balcony. As he runs from his office he is spotted by a librarian trained in Krav Maga anf Xingyiquan. Just as Boortz squeezes off a couple of rounds she is on him like Mike Tyson in a steroid induced rage. But Boortz is trained to feel no painand quickly dispatches her with a blow to the temple. But everyone in the building notices their fearless leader has gone hand to hand. Out come the Tasers and nunchakus, the throwing knives,and brass knuckle. Hand to hand combat everywhere. Explosions, tear gas, concussion grenades, MACE, jujitsu, karate, kung fu, and more gunfire continue for the next twenty minutes. In the end--eighty two are dead.
On Fox that night the report praises Boortz for having worked his librarians into such a state of readiness. The dead--well in combat situations one has to expect collateral damage. They said America will never be the same. I guess they were right.
this sure doesn't sound like people were lined up waiting to be shot...
[link to www.washingtonpost.com]
Just a few things to consider here : from the many first hand accounts I have heard from students, the classrooms were small in size - about 15 students. The 30 killed in the second shooting were killed in FOUR different classrooms. One firsthand account said about half the students in his class were killed, about 7. The shooter went from room to room. There was no time to mount a counter-attack. No one was "lined up against the wall." Certainly not 25 as this lizard suggests. The reaction of most of the students, from their own account, was to get AWAY from the shooting. Some turned over desks. I have yet to hear of anyone 'freezing" or passively submitting to execution. No one did that. They scrambled to hide and get down and get away. That is not only normal, but absolutely the right response. No one could have known the cold determination of this killer in a split second to risk life to disarm him. Going from room to room, the response was the same, as would be expected. The political point that this dreck of a non human was trying to make was that the "left" teaches passivity, surrender and compliance, suggesting that the right teaches bravery, action and courage. When you think about it though, the people who listen to this cretin and the likes of Rush and Hannity are actually subjecting themselves to passive indoctrination each day for 3 hours. They don't think for themselves at all. They soak up right wing parrot propoganda and them go online to repeat them. They are trained seals bleating and clapping their fins to drown out anything left of conscience, humanity or reason. Methinks this is a big case of projection, whether conscious or not.
Just another big-talking pantload
Boortz joins National Review's John "I likes 'em young" Derbyshire and some other worthless skidmark from Human Events in that category of people who can play cowboy in their own fantasies, but who should keep their second-guessing of the victims and survivors, their value judgments against the same and especially their masturbatory hero fantasies to themselves unless and until they've been anywhere near the sound of live gunfire
Boortz is a War Hero! Don't let him tell you otherwise! He's the Hero of the Human Wave Attacks of NVA soldiers at "The Battle for the ROTC Locker Room at Texas A&M",June '67
Call him up on his show today, ask Belinda the Phone Lady, to have him tell again how he singlehandily stopped human wave after human wave of NVA troops storming his position during the "Battle of the ROTC Locker Rooms at Texas A&M"! He took his Piper Cub Cadet to the skys, and strafted the human waves of NVA,with his trusty single shot, long barrel .22 pistol. He doesn't like to talk about it,but if enough folks call, he might open up!
Here's the Toll Free Number for his show: 1-877-310-2100. Do it now ,or anytime you have a chance!